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Dollhouse has its own time travel issue. Most of the audience has time traveled to the future and knows where the story is heading. With an apocalypse looming in the not too distant future, Ballard's moralizing over the right and wrong of the Dollhouse is no longer the central issue of the show. As Judgment Day quickly approaches the show needs to be laying the groundwork for Typhoid Topher destroying the civilized world.
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nope, you are making no sense. TSCC replies heavily on T1 and T2. The first 2 movies is TSCC's bread and butter. From characters to stories to the constant reference to the events in the first 2 movies, TSCC is the continuation of the first two movies. While T3 is the first one to rewrite what is said to happen in T1 and T2. As for T4, John Connor was supposed to lead the resistance. And T800 is supposed to be the first endo with living tissue. Yet T4 we have John Connor not leading the resistance, and some dude with living tissue endo before the T800.
Be the way, the different character thing is ridiculous. Are you saying that after the events of T2, John wouldn't meet new people until Judgment Day? Isn't his supposed girl friend new characters in T3? By the way, in T3, they also created a new time line with in the movie itself. Before they sent back the TX, things happened different.
no, actually original Terminator time travel model is the dumbest one. It makes a physically impossible thing even more silly than it has to. There are plenty of articles online telling how ridiculous original Terminator time travel is. But even if we buy all that because we are too distracted watching Sarah Connor being chased around by a unstoppable cyborg to care how ridiculous the time travel model is, in the end there still needs to be a initial condition for the time loop. i.e. the original timeline to getting up to the point of the first time travel.
It's like writing a function containing an endless loop. Before you kicked the endless loop into high gear, you still need to call it first. And calling that endless loop is the initial condition. Without it, the predestination paradox can not exist. So when ever you see a predestination paradox happen on screen, what really happens is we are seeing the loop after the first time travel. So to have John Connor exist in the future to send Kyle Reese back to father himself, Kyle Reese has to make the first timetravel when there was no John Connor in the untampered timeline.
And no thanks on discussing in the Heroes forum. This will do for me.
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If that means Felicia Day will join Dollhouse again, then... i await judgment day
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When did I say TSCC wasn't following the first two movies? I said it wasn't part of the movie franchise as a WHOLE. The movies are connected to each other as one long story (whether it's a perfect connection or not is beside the point I'm making). TSCC is of course connected to the first two, but it replaces T3's story/events and thus is independent from the MOVIE FRANCHISE/STORY AS A WHOLE. THAT'S ALL I'M SAYING.
When I was talking about TSCC having different characters of importance in their universe, this was just in reference to it being independent from the rest of the movie franchise (which includes ALL FOUR FILMS). In the movie universe, which again, includes ALL FOUR FILMS, there is no Cameron, Derek, Weaver, etc. That's it, simple as that. You are misreading/misunderstanding my comments and are unfortunately going off on tangents as a result.Be the way, the different character thing is ridiculous. Are you saying that after the events of T2, John wouldn't meet new people until Judgment Day? Isn't his supposed girl friend new characters in T3?
WHERE do I argue this is not the case? Again, tangents. Please stop doing that.By the way, in T3, they also created a new time line with in the movie itself. Before they sent back the TX, things happened different.
That's their (and your) opinion, I happen to disagree. It was far from silly, and actually a logically thought out way of how time travel might work in a single universe model, if time travel were possible. You just have yet to wrap your head around it. I was a lot like you in my thinking not too long ago. You just have to spend more time thinking about it before the understanding hits you.no, actually original Terminator time travel model is the dumbest one. It makes a physically impossible thing even more silly than it has to. There are plenty of articles online telling how ridiculous original Terminator time travel is.
The original timeline, the ONLY timeline, has Kyle/Arnie in the past. Time travel makes this possible. It defies logic when you look at it in a "forward" perspective (ie. the idea that things must happen in the order of past, present, future in the timeline), but to properly wrap your head around the logic that is actually quite present here, you must take into account the apparent reversal of cause and effect relationships that can result when things/people from the future leave the future, and continue their existence in the past. And when a cause leads to a given effect in such a circumstance, that very same effect can end up leading back to its own cause--and this is the essence of a causal loop, which is logically self-sustaining (it is actually quite logical). This is the type of story we have here.in the end there still needs to be a initial condition for the time loop. i.e. the original timeline to getting up to the point of the first time travel.
Further to this, in a single universe model, you can't do something "new" to the past (you can't change it). The past is set. This means if you send someone to the past, they were already there whether you realize it or not (and the reason they are in the past, is because you will send them or eventually send them). So you only end up fulfilling the past with time travel--this is where the term "predestined" comes into play. From the moment Kyle was born and Arnie was created, they were destined to one day leave the future and live out the rest of their days in the past (through an unalterable chain of events). Their older selves were already in "their timeline's past" (the one and ONLY timeline) before they left the future, they just weren't aware of that. Future John, however, is fully aware of these things, and knowingly sends Kyle back to fulfill his destiny, while Skynet sends Arnie back without the same knowledge (but with the same result--fulfilling the past). These specific factors (among others), of Future John knowing and Skynet not knowing, are directly linked to the mechanisms by which this particular loop in causality exists/sustains itself.
Once again, no, you are missing the concept at play here. You just need to think about it more, as once again I used to be a lot like you in my thinking. There is no such thing as an "untampered" timeline in a single universe model where time travel happens. The timeline is "tampered" by definition or by default, in a universe where only one universe (or one timeline) is possible or exists and time travel occurs. In this case, elements of the future leave the future and continue (and end) their existence in the past. And then these same elements lead back to the same future (forming a causal loop). You need to change your frame of mind to grasp this better.So to have John Connor exist in the future to send Kyle Reese back to father himself, Kyle Reese has to make the first timetravel when there was no John Connor in the untampered timeline.
So before you go off on tangents again and accuse me of not making sense, please take into account that you yourself are misreading/misrepresenting my comments repeatedly, and that I saw things a lot like you do not too long ago.
(Hansioux, I miss the days when all we would argue about was whether or not the new Knight Rider felt like V.I.P.....now THOSE were some meaningful conversations, weren't they? lol)Last edited by Xanderman; 10-19-2009, 03:26 PM.Comment
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I saw Felicia Day on a Dollhouse panel at Dragoncon in Sept. She didnt want to give anything away plot wise but she hinted she'd be returning to Dollhouse at some point this season. i also so saw her on a Buffy panel and she had a two hour presentation on The Guild that included showing the first two seasons.Comment
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The Guild is hilarious... oh, poor Bladezz........ life is the suck for him right now....
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T3 is not consistent with T1 and T2. And like I said, to have Sarah died in 2004, means that TSCC has to be a period piece. Besides, TSCC acknowledges events of T3 in the pilot. They just skipped forward in time to evade Cromartie and to go to a time when they know future Skynet first came to being in order to stop it.
They don't have to be there. It's a different time in John's life. And every time future John or Skynet sends stuff back, timeline is altered if not diverted.
By the way, that often is the problem with Time travel stories, with the reset button type situations can undo a lot of character development (same with dream sequence).
It's just seems a bit hypocritical when you say X and Y is the reason why TSCC failed, while these things constantly happen in the movies. If you acknowledge that same deal exist in T2, T3 and even T4, I don't see why TSCC is at fault here.
By the way, your single timeline theory of everything in the past is set, doesn't explain why in T3 the future is changed. Since events in T3 should have been the future's past, so it should have been set, things should have happened like T800 said it would.
If I suppose if you are saying the moment past is changed, it means the future is changes with it (duh moment, but I don't know what you are trying to get to). That since TX changed the past, so the future then exists as the events after T3. Then you are really just saying there were multiple timelines, but one just happens t o be erased.
Then why bother sending anyone back?
Look you are pretty much not making any sense here. And your theory only works if traveling to the past is the only option allowed. If someone travels to the future, then future is set as well? If that's part of the story I will buy it to enjoy the story. But this single universe/timeline crap doesn't exist in the movies. It is not set in stones. It doesn't have to be. Because It doesn't have to be a single universe/timeline to have a causality loop. And it doesn't make or break a Terminator story.
The concept of time travel to the past itself is impossible if you want to get down to the science of it. So insisting one universe can only have one timeline is the best model is rather pointless. There exist many time travel models. Those models are like super human origins in super hero stories. Superman and X-men have very different origin stories. There's no "better" origin sotry models, because it's the premise of the story and you have to accept it to enjoy the story.
Same thing with Time Travel. Time travel models can be anything. It can be Back to the Future, or anything else. It is not the whole of a story. If the story is done well, it really doesn't matter which model is used. The model doesn't make or break the story.
I believe TSCC obeyed T1 and T2 rules of time traveling. You don't. I believe the Terminator time travel is based on traveling in time creates multiple timelines. You don't. But who care, it doesn't affect the quality of the story at all. T2 broke the rules of time travel set by T1 and itself by introducing liquid metal traveling through time. No one cares because the story is done well.
It's too bad. NBC can't do anything right at this point. Let's just hope they don't screw up Chuck.Comment
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Seriously, there is a TSCC thread if you wanna argue about TSCC...
Anyway, Sierra's story interests me alot, because it draws on what happened in my favourite season 1 episode 'Needs', in which we got a little hint that Sierra's 'doll' life was payed for by a dick head who wanted her to obey him... does no one else remember that?
It's something that very much needed explaining after that episode and could be a horrific way to enter the dollhousel. considering that all the people in the dollhouse are not evil, and do have morals, i'd be interested to see why it ends up this way!Comment
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Felicia Day's character returning this season would be exciting. "Epitaph One" was an amazing episode.
Oh that was stomach churningly horrible - the way Sierra became a doll. As unpleasant as the story probably will be, I am very interested in it. It'll be nice to see a supporting Doll's story fleshed out more.Comment
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I know, I'll stop now. Sorry about that.
Hansioux we'll have to agree to disagree because we're going in circles on some things, partly because you're still not following/misinterpreting some of the points I'm making or have made. Some I tried to clear up more than once, but seeing as they're still a problem for you, I think that's as far as we go. Anyway, until the next topic. (Unless you still really want to continue--if so, we'll probably have to move it somewhere else, but you said you didn't want to. Anyway, no worries either way.)Comment
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I hope its an interesting ep and Im glad to see Sierra have some screen time. I guess if its a good ep then it doesnt matter but its another tick off the clock. Establishing Sierra's backstory doesnt seem to drive the arc of the the show. It also establishes background on a character that they seem to be determined to keep in the background. I was hoping it would be more of an ensemble this season but it hasnt turned out that way.Comment
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I'm just so used to having characters immediately explained to me in a way that makes me feel like I know them when it comes to Whedon shows, which are usually 70% character driven and 30% plot driven. With Dollhouse, it's like the plot, the 'where this is going' stuff is taking up all the time and there is no time to get to know anyone along the way.
So I'm glad that they are taking the time now to explain who these people were, so that we don't just know them as dolls, but as who Echo is fighting for them to be again. It gives us a reason to want her to succeed, too see these people's wrongs put right.
Look at Firefly. Most of the episodes were stand alone, with a small thread of the Tams fugitive storyline running through it all. But there was never some big plot course. It was just a story about people. And that's why it is so much better.Comment
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In the newest interview Summer Glau described her character as a bit of a mad scientist. Don't know how that's going to play out, but kind of wish she is just normal for once. But I suppose Topher can also be described as a mad scientist.... so her character might just be eccentric like Topher.
I want her to give Topher a run for his money in the smart department. Maybe she's there to solve things Topher wouldn't. That's be fun to see.Comment
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