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  1. #166
    Board Master Dagenspear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSecretVampire View Post
    The Vertias storyline seemed like it changed, all the time. I came to my conclusion that the orb controlling device wasn't designed to control Clark, but it was a beacon device that drew Davis/Doomsday to Clark, so that he could kill him. And that the great danger that Lionel Luthor and Brainiac warned Clark of in late season 7 was Doomsday. The Vertias group, while wealthy and very smart people, really had no idea what they were diving into, when discussing the Traveler related issues in their group. What they thought was something to control the Traveler, was actually something that would be a beacon to draw the Traveler's ultimate destroyer.
    I think the orb was created before Doomsday, wasn't it?

  2. #167
    Forum Whiz TheSecretVampire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagenspear View Post
    I think the orb was created before Doomsday, wasn't it?

    Yeah, it was. But, every season after 7 they changed what it really was. First, it was something to control Clark Kent and his powers. Then, in season 8, it was changed to contain Kandorian cloned DNA; which would be unlocked if Clark killed Doomsday.............which still doesn't make any sense since burying deep underground is not killing him. It's all a giant mess, man. I made up my own theory, but I doubt we'll ever know the real and legit truth about that Orb.


    What are your thoughts on the Vertias storyline/Orb?

  3. #168
    Board Master Dagenspear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSecretVampire View Post
    Yeah, it was. But, every season after 7 they changed what it really was. First, it was something to control Clark Kent and his powers. Then, in season 8, it was changed to contain Kandorian cloned DNA; which would be unlocked if Clark killed Doomsday.............which still doesn't make any sense since burying deep underground is not killing him. It's all a giant mess, man. I made up my own theory, but I doubt we'll ever know the real and legit truth about that Orb.

    What are your thoughts on the Vertias storyline/Orb?
    I think the veritas storyline is acceptable on it's own, as is the orb as it's tied to that storyline. Sure, there are retcons, but you can kinda justify most of it. But I think when Kelly Souders and Brian Peterson took over as head writers for season 8 they took it off the rails. Tying Doomsday and the Kandorians and the orb all together didn't make any sense. Gough and Millar always just took their established canon and warped it as they went along. Souders and Peterson kind of broke it apart and tried to piece it together like a puzzle the way they wanted to suit their story.
    Last edited by Dagenspear; 08-01-2015 at 05:18 AM.

  4. #169
    Custom Title jon-el87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kschreck View Post
    -Lex didn't know the St. George (about the box) story until that b-day party of his
    Pretty minor detail. It's possible to learn something, then forget about it and re-learn it again a few years later. Not to mention, Lex is well-established as having had memory problems ("Memoria", "Veritas"), so is it really an inconsistancy that he learned something twice.

    -Tess was able to get Lionel's Veritas journal yet Lex has never been able to.
    Lex didn't have much time. By this episode, Lionel had been dead for about a year. He died were weeks (if that), before Lex vanished himself. Lex had also only begun to investigate the secrets of Veritas. Why would he be looking for a journal? Tess has had over six months to uncover Lionel's documents. She's had more time on her hands to investigate Veritas, than Lex ever had.

    -Another one is why did the knife in Talisman disappear when Lex touched it if he wasn't Clark's greatest enemy?
    The season 9 episode "Kandor" heavily implies that the whole business with Naman/the Traveler (which they acknowledge wasn't written down) is a missunderstanding that's been born out of the Orb. It was sent here and a story was told by someone to the founders of the Kawatche tribe, who passed the story along through the generations. However, as it wasn't written down, it mutated over time. Things changed and were added. There are plenty of cases of this in the real world. Take the ballads about Robin Hood for example. Maid Marian wasn't in the early ones. She was a later addition, to give Robin a love interest.

    The existance of the dagger isn't something that lines up with later reveals. However, Jor-El could've sent it, to give his clone powers in a case of an emergency. When Jeremiah was defeated, it disintegrated. Not because of some mystical reason, but because it was supposed to be destroyed, if the wielder was defeated by someone, thus keeping it from ending up in the wrong hands.

    -Why was there kryptonite in the st george box and why was it on lionels desk when it was the gift for lex from where ever lionel got it. Did he re-gift it to lex? haha
    Maybe he did. The town had just been struck by a meteor shower, where the green meteorites were the most common. Why wouldn't a rich man like Lionel wanna own a piece of something that came from space? And he put it in the box (which has already been established to be lead), in case it was harmful.


    -It sure did look like Lionel Luthor lived there even though Clark said that Lionel never lived in the castle and had no intention to.
    Correction, Lex said in the pilot episode that Lionel had never set foot inside the door. However, already in "Onyx", we had Lex reference having played in the mansion as a kid. So, clearly they have been there at times. The line in the pilot episode can be written off as Lex joking with a guy he's just met. Not to mention, living there implies permanent resident. Lionel and Lex lived in their Metropolis penthouse (which season 11 places in the LuthorCorp Plaza building). The mansion was just a temporary residence.

    -Why did Davis get cut by the knife when in previous episodes he couldn't be harmed by knives?
    He stabbed himself in the chest and it shattered. It means that his chest can't be penetrated by anything. Cutting yourself on the finger isn't the same, as being stabbed in the chest.

    -There was plenty of weird stuff, but the most glaring plothole for me would be the whole "Oliver's taking care of it" bit, and then Davis shows up, completely fine in Chloe's basement. Yeah, but wha -- ?!
    In "Beast", they establish that Oliver buried him in a quarry. Even if they didn't point it out two episodes later, it's still superobvious that "taking care of it" means that Oliver's burying the body. Davis is well-established to be resurrected, after dying. So, Oliver buried him. After a while, Davis was resurrected and dug himself out of the whole.

    -You gotta laugh how Lionel's people tracked down Davis right past the spaceship and left it there for somebody else to retrieve
    The ship that Jor-El's essence controlled in "Exodus"? The obvious explaination is right there. He made it impossible for Lionel's men to spot the ship (Kryptonians were shown to possess technology that could make a ship invisible in "Vessel"), then made it visible again, when the Kents came back for it.


    -Lionels men didn't even notice the big egg Doomsday hatched from and ignored that he spoke perfect English.
    "Rosetta": The key downloads the Kryptonian language into Clark's mind. Kryptonian technology is already established to be able to download a language into someone's mind. Any reason why English couldn't have been downloaded into the mind of Davis?

    -I have to rewatch the episode but was it Tess that made the comment that Davis and Clark didn't get along for a reason? If so (unless i'm wrong) ... how would she know that?
    Olsen put her on the trail of Davis back in "Turbulence". She's had time to observe their interactions.

    Also wasnt it Johnathan not Martha that called in the favor?
    Martha ("Lineage"): "We called Lionel Luthor, cashed in the favor." They never say who made the actual phone call.

    -Somehow the Orb magically survived Jor-El's destruction of the fortress and magically found it's way back to Tess Mercer who has never even seen the Orb in person before.
    The Orb is a piece of alien technology, driven by an AI. In "Injustice", we see it fly and project an energy field. We don't know how much abuse it can take. And being able to fly on its own, there is no reason why it couldn't have flown out of the Fortress, while it collapsed. And then allowed itself to be found by LuthorCorp (identifying the company logo as belonging to the people who activated it in the first place).

  5. #170
    Custom Title jon-el87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSecretVampire View Post
    Yeah, it was. But, every season after 7 they changed what it really was. First, it was something to control Clark Kent and his powers. Then, in season 8, it was changed to contain Kandorian cloned DNA; which would be unlocked if Clark killed Doomsday.............which still doesn't make any sense since burying deep underground is not killing him. It's all a giant mess, man.
    Not really, we learned its true purpose later. What we got in "Quest" was the Veritas version of the story, which is an appropriated version of a verbal Kawatche legend (meaning it's not first hand information, but more like 500th hand information). The Orb was supposed to create clones, but Jor-El built in safety features, to protect humanity from super powered Kryptonians. He blasted it with blue K. The power removal was probably another, which the people who told the story of Naman/the Traveler, eventually misconstrued into it allowing them to controll the Traveler. When its true purpose was to give humanity a way to destroy the Fortress and remove the powers of any powered Kryptonian. Only, when that happened, it was only Clark in the world.

    It wasn't activated until Lex put the last piece on it, at the end of season 7. It scanned the world (which is how it gave Lex the location of the Fortress) and noticed two beings. One being Doomsday, which it perceived as a threat to Kryptonians, so it didn't start the cloning process. The other being it noticed was a super powered Kryptonian (Clark), so it activated the safeguard that Jor-El built into it. It's not until several days after Doomsday is killed, that the Orb finds it safe to create the clones.

    As to why Doomsday was killed. He could always be killed, he was just resurrected afterwards. But, in the season 8 finale, they used black K to split Davis from Doomsday. Removing half of one being's DNA. No longer having its complete DNA, Doomsday was unable to resurrect itself and remained dead. They fleshed out on this in "Argo", where Doomsday is brought back to life in the 31st Century, by having the DNA of the unborn child of the Zod and Faora clones (a genetic sibling of Davis) integrated into it. Confirming that the removal of the Davis Bloome DNA caused a genetic flaw in Doomsday, preventing it from being resurrected.

  6. #171
    Custom Title jon-el87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Striving Artist® View Post
    Also we learn in "Pilot" that Lionel was looking for Lex.Since we know how much of a heartless bastard he was towards him,how come he didn't ditch him to join up with his men searching for the ship and the Traveler? Instead he tracks Lex,looks horrified and then hitches a ride with the Kents.
    Gross exaggeration. Lionel could be harsh with the boy, but he still cared for Lex. However, as we learn in "Memoria", that changed in 1992, when Lionel was led to believe that Lex had killed his younger brother, Julian. That's the incident that made it impossible for Lionel to love Lex. On the one hand, Lex was his son. On the other, he was the one who had killed his other son. His firstborn was also the one who murdered the youngest of his four children. These flashbacks take place 1989, three years before Julian was even born.

  7. #172
    Forum Whiz TheSecretVampire's Avatar
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    Watching this episode again makes me think that in their originals plans that they either didn't think of having Doomsday on the show (back in planning seasons ahead) or they didn't think of plans for the show past season 5. I mean, if they thought they would use Doomsday on the show, they probably should've shown Davis in the original Pilot coming to Earth just like Clark and played up the mystery of that boy for the next several seasons until they finally do the Doomsday angle. Sort of like what they did in the Flash TV show where they played up the Infinite Crisis angle in bits in the first 5 seasons and now it's happening in season 6.


    I say this because why did it take until season 8 for Davis/Doomsday to finally be in the same area as Clark? They said Davis would be drawn to Clark and I get Brainic was key point as well, but what was Davis/Doomsday doing in seasons 1-7. I wonder if Lex stayed on for season 8, if Doomsday still would've been the plan. I just think with the plot holes pointed out in here that they had to twist some things around in order to make the Doomsday plot fit in the present.

  8. #173
    Custom Title jon-el87's Avatar
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    Doubt anyone thought that this show would run for ten years. 4-5 at the most. Just look at the previous two Superman live-action shows:

    Superboy: 1988-1992 (four seasons).

    Lois & Clark: 1993-1997 (four seasons).

    Imagine that you were involved with this show, during the development stage, in 2001. Someone walks up to you and informs you that this new show will run longer than the previous two combined. You wouldn't believe them. No live-action superhero show could run for ten years. The longest was Adventures of Superman, at six seasons, which had aired in the 50's.

    Also, bad example with The Flash. It came out in 2014, when it had been proven that a superhero show could run for ten seasons. Not to mention, the crisis mentioned was originally supposed to take place in 2024. Dwindling ratings for all four Arrowverse shows have forced them to move it up to 2019, in an attempt to create buzz for the Arrowverse. Crisis on Infinite Earths isn't a payoff to longform storytelling, it's a gimmick to boost ratings. One that will backfire, as you can't do that storyline justice on a CW budget. It will be an underwhelming for those of you who bother watching it (I won't as I got bored and stopped watching The Flash after season 3). After it, the ratings will go down again. They're taking jumping the shark into a cosmic level (only they can't afford the shark for long).
    Last edited by jon-el87; 08-21-2019 at 12:59 PM.

  9. #174
    Forum Whiz TheSecretVampire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jon-el87 View Post
    Doubt anyone thought that this show would run for ten years. 4-5 at the most. Just look at the previous two Superman live-action shows:

    Superboy: 1988-1992 (four seasons).

    Lois & Clark: 1993-1997 (four seasons).

    Imagine that you were involved with this show, during the development stage, in 2001. Someone walks up to you and informs you that this new show will run longer than the previous two combined. You wouldn't believe them. No live-action superhero show could run for ten years. The longest was Adventures of Superman, at six seasons, which had aired in the 50's.

    Also, bad example with The Flash. It came out in 2014, when it had been proven that a superhero show could run for ten seasons. Not to mention, the crisis mentioned was originally supposed to take place in 2024. Dwindling ratings for all four Arrowverse shows have forced them to move it up to 2019, in an attempt to create buzz for the Arrowverse. Crisis on Infinite Earths isn't a payoff to longform storytelling, it's a gimmick to boost ratings. One that will backfire, as you can't do that storyline justice on a CW budget. It will be an underwhelming for those of you who bother watching it (I won't as I got bored and stopped watching The Flash after season 3). After it, the ratings will go down again. They're taking jumping the shark into a cosmic level (only they can't afford the shark for long).
    Well, that's fine. That's your opinion and speculation on your part thinking the Crisis Event will be underwhelming for those who watch it.....won't really know until it airs. But there are A LOT of people looking forward to it so I will just leave it at that.

    And after watching this episode again, I think a lot of things made more sense to me to now than when I was first watched it back it when it aired Live and a few times after that. Sure, some things might have been changed from the past in order to make it fit with the present storyline, but none that really bothered me that much now. And yeah bad example using The Flash....wasn't really thinking through on that one. I apologize for that. Won't be the first time I been wrong and won't be the last.

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