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A Lot of Christian symbolism

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Skaterpen357
    I know it wouldn't work, and so does he, probably, but the writers made a conscious effort to show Davis throwing away his pills. They weren't doing a thing, but it was still a significant choice Davis made.

    Besides, who says the Antichrist has free will?

    If I had to compare outside of Clark and Davis, though, I'd say Lex is more a Judas, and Zod is Satan. But that's just me.

    Davis' whole do evil to prevent evil thing is tragic, though. Makes Zod that much more Satan-like.
    Yeah I wasn't sure about the whole anti-christ thing does the anti-christ not have free will then.

    I don't think Davis had much of a choice when he threw away the pills though. I think your right about Zod being the devil.

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    • #32
      i'm just suprised that doomsday is a christian!

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      • #33
        Originally posted by chlavisbug
        i'm just suprised that doomsday is a christian!
        Doomsday isn't Davis is. That shows that Davis has tried to be good prob most of his life and just shows how tragic his situation is. I magine how horrible it would be to be a devout christian and always try to be good and all of the sudden you find out your evil and there is nothing you can do about it. It's just toooo tragic for words.

        ----- Added 6 Minutes later -----

        Originally posted by smeyer44
        Here's my two cents on the parallels:

        Jor-El = God: He sends his only son to save and protect mankind. He was also particularly vengeful in the early seasons (much like the Old Testament).

        Clark/Supes = Jesus: For obvious reasons

        Zod = Satan: Wants to rule Earth (and re-create Krypton, which would be like Satan ruling Heaven) and destroy humanity, which he sees as inferior.

        Lex = Lucifer: Did not start out as bad, but falls from grace and embraces total darkness. Granted, this might ignore some stories from his youth (Reunion), but I choose to believe that he wasnt evil in the early going.

        I would say that Doomsday is more or less a tool of Satan, given that he doesnt have free will in the end. No matter what you think of Davis's free will, the fact is that he cant fight it forever, so to me that means he has no free will. (although I do like Skaterpen's Antichrist analysis). As for everyone else, I'm not knowledgeable enough to make any comparisons there

        I feel like I'm on the Supernatural board
        Those are good camparisons. Lex is more like Lucifer since he is fallen. Lex had tried to be good but chose to be bad and embrace his darkness.

        And I do think Doomsday is a tool of Satan he is more like a demon with no free will. And Davis is more like someone who is possessed by a demon.
        Last edited by chlo-el; 03-22-2009, 09:27 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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        • #34
          Originally posted by chlavisbug
          i'm just suprised that doomsday is a christian!
          He is?

          Originally posted by princessdiana
          Clark/Superman has always been associated with Christ. Al/Miles have talked about it regarding SV in the past. We of course have the "scarecrow" scene in the first episode. Veritas, the traveler etc.

          I found it interesting how they used this symbolism in this episode starting with the the opening and the painting in the church of Christ dying in Mary Magdeline's arms much like the scene in The Death of Superman with Lois holding Superman.

          Then we have Davis, the dark, fallen from heaven symbol of Satan. Chloe, is she Judas or Peter? Is Tess Pontius Pilate,(the gown was interesting at the end) or maybe she is Judas. She'll betray Clark with a kiss.

          Very interesting.
          Great examples! Except, Jesus didn't die in Mary's arms. (He died on the cross, but was resurrected three days later! )

          I could honestly see Tess or Chloe being the Judas in Smallville. Honestly, Chloe is becoming that, because she starting to turn to the wrong person and will probably end up betraying Clark. But, Tess is also a good candidate.

          I am a Christian, so its always awesome to see Biblical similarities in Smallville!

          ----- Added 2 Minutes later -----

          Originally posted by smeyer44
          Here's my two cents on the parallels:

          Jor-El = God: He sends his only son to save and protect mankind. He was also particularly vengeful in the early seasons (much like the Old Testament).

          Clark/Supes = Jesus: For obvious reasons

          Zod = Satan: Wants to rule Earth (and re-create Krypton, which would be like Satan ruling Heaven) and destroy humanity, which he sees as inferior.

          Lex = Lucifer: Did not start out as bad, but falls from grace and embraces total darkness. Granted, this might ignore some stories from his youth (Reunion), but I choose to believe that he wasnt evil in the early going.

          I would say that Doomsday is more or less a tool of Satan, given that he doesnt have free will in the end. No matter what you think of Davis's free will, the fact is that he cant fight it forever, so to me that means he has no free will. (although I do like Skaterpen's Antichrist analysis). As for everyone else, I'm not knowledgeable enough to make any comparisons there

          I feel like I'm on the Supernatural board
          I agree with this, but Lucifer and Satan are the same person. Lex symbolizes Lucifer/Satan, because he started out good (in Heaven, Lucifer was in charge of the praise), but then wanted to control everything. He thought he was better than everyone.
          Last edited by redkryptoniteisthebest; 03-22-2009, 04:02 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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          • #35
            I was glad to see this thread because the nods to Christian and Jewish Symbolism are intended particularly by the directors of the films. As others have said, we're supposed to catch the references. Clark--mild mannered reporter yet Superman; Jesus--carpenter yet God's Son. The El reference has already been mentioned as the Hebrew word for God. And who can forget the great Marlon Brando saying, "And so I send you, my own beloved son" in the movies. By the way, the picture in the episode is of the Blessed Virgin Mary cradling Jesus. Also, did you all know that Martha Kent's name in the original Superman comics was "Mary" for a while.

            I think that Smallville has made the same types of references. The "crucifixion" scene from the pilot as well as the references to Clark's immortal nature--he does not die. (Does anyone remember what ep that reference popped up in?). And, of course, SV has Jor-El saying that Kal-el will be a god on earth among men. All in all, pretty cool stuff. We aren't supposed to always be thinking of Clark/Superman = Jesus, but it marinates in the unconscious and makes us love the Superman mythos all the more.

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            • #36
              We saw this early one - the images of Clark standing next to angelic statues in the cemetary...we are clearly meant to see a Christ like symbol, so you are definitely on the right track and certainly NOT overthinking this.

              More parallels (just to add to the list):

              Christ/Superman is a savior for mankind
              Antichrist/Doomsday is a destroyer of mankind

              Antichrist is associated with end of days (doomsday - end of the world)
              Doomsday is noted for "bony protrusions", much like horns - Beast of Daniel and Revelation has "Ten horns"

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              • #37
                Cool thoughts. It's always fun to analyze things in different ways

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by chlavisbug
                  i'm just suprised that doomsday is a christian!
                  Desperate is more like it. No real person ever has to deal with the sci-fi curse of a Kryptonian beast, but... I'll go on record as saying that Doomsday would be helpless against God's deliverance. And despite Davis' lack of freedom (though we can't condemn him for lack of trying other avenues), a true Christian would not resort to killing people. However, one definition of the word "Christian" is literally just someone who believes in Christ, so I suppose I could concede there.

                  Originally posted by chlo-el
                  Those are good camparisons. Lex is more like Lucifer since he is fallen. Lex had tried to be good but chose to be bad and embrace his darkness.

                  And I do think Doomsday is a tool of Satan he is more like a demon with no free will. And Davis is more like someone who is possessed by a demon.
                  Lex definitely fits the Lucifer bill, but a demon-possessed individual seldom has the compassion, competence, or conscience that Davis has.

                  Originally posted by redkryptoniteisthebest
                  Except, Jesus didn't die in Mary's arms. (He died on the cross, but was resurrected three days later! )

                  I agree with this, but Lucifer and Satan are the same person. Lex symbolizes Lucifer/Satan, because he started out good (in Heaven, Lucifer was in charge of the praise), but then wanted to control everything. He thought he was better than everyone.
                  I already brought up the Mary and Lucifer points. It was just an honest mistake.

                  But since you bring up Lucifer, I've often wondered where people get some of the notions they have concerning his position in heaven. Being in charge of praise, for instance. Is there even a line in the Bible to halfway support that theory?

                  I could honestly see Tess or Chloe being the Judas in Smallville. Honestly, Chloe is becoming that, because she starting to turn to the wrong person and will probably end up betraying Clark. But, Tess is also a good candidate.
                  If they do that with Chloe, these producers would become fools in my eyes.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Just Another Guy
                    I already brought up the Mary and Lucifer points. It was just an honest mistake.

                    But since you bring up Lucifer, I've often wondered where people get some of the notions they have concerning his position in heaven. Being in charge of praise, for instance. Is there even a line in the Bible to halfway support that theory?
                    After posting that, I noticed it. Yeah, there is a verse that does say so. Let me find it and I'll post it.

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                    • #40
                      For anyone who is interested, There is a book available on Amazon called Who needs a Superhero. It is a very good read. It not only compares Superman but also Batman, Ironman, Wonderwoman and many others.

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                      • #41
                        I don't think it's exactly Christian symbolism, just religious symbolism in general. There was hundreds of gods before Jesus who shared similar tales(12 helpers, virgin birth, risen from dead, god sent him to earth, etc etc been there done that).

                        Going by Lord Raglan's Hero Pattern Checklist

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                        Lord Raglan, in The Hero (1936) has classified the parallel life-patterns of the mythical hero of tradition into twenty-two archetypal incidents, as noted below. The higher a particular hero scores, the closer he is to the UR-archetype of the sacred hero-king of prehistoric religious ritual; a historical hero is likely to share rather few of the mythical characteristics.

                        The Scale
                        1. The hero's mother is a royal virgin.
                        2. His father is a king and
                        3. often a near relative of the mother, but
                        4. the circumstances of his conception are unusual, and
                        5. he is also reputed to be the son of a god
                        6. at birth an attempt is made, usually by his father or maternal grandfather, to kill him, but
                        7. He is spirited away, and
                        8. reared by foster-parents in a far country.
                        9. We are told nothing of his childhood, but
                        10. on reaching manhood he returns or goes to his future kingdom.
                        11. After a victory over the king and or giant, dragon, or wild beast
                        12. he marries a princess, often the daughter of his predecessor and
                        13. becomes king.
                        14. For a time he reigns uneventfully and
                        15. prescribes laws but
                        16. later loses favor with the gods and or his people and
                        17. is driven from from the throne and the city after which
                        18. He meets with a mysterious death
                        19. often at the top of a hill.
                        20. His children, if any, do not succeed him.
                        21. His body is not buried, but nevertheless
                        22. he has one or more holy sepulchres.
                        Superman scores 9, for Comparison Jesus scores 18 and Krishna tops the chart being 21 for 21.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Alicia Chipy
                          There is a book The gospels according to Superman about this.
                          I actually have it. It's a really great book. I especially laughed at the Billy Hymn reference in this episode.

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                          • #43
                            Your posts are interesting. The thing is in all stories (fairy tales, books, movies, ...)you have a hero, a villain, a redemption or not,...It is just about how the world goes. It is about Mankind. So obviously you find these facets whatever you want to do.
                            I am always stunned when I watch or read some fictional movies/books : you can be in a complete different world but the thing which doesn't change (or which can not be different in our imagination)is our humanity. Aliens have always the same feelings as us : angst, joy, love, hatred,...It is just funny how nobody can imagine feelings we don't have. We can imagine powers but not a different emotional way of being. I hope I am clear, I am really not sure lol
                            So back to the topic, I find some of you maybe overanalyze Superman/Jesus but the most important is this : I think we all need to think a hero/god,...can save us. But Superman means Hope, talking about God, Allah,...is about Faith. It is different. IMO

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                            • #44
                              If you guys enjoy discovering the underlying symbolism in the Superman myth, may I suggest the writings of Joseph Campbell? He wrote "The Hero with a Thousand Faces" among many others. I listened to an interview he did back in the 80's on how universal mythology is and all the different archetypes, including the hero archetype and was completely fascinated.

                              The Christian story of Jesus as savior is a hero myth in and of itself (if you choose to look at it as myth), so it makes sense that there would be parallels with other hero myths such as Superman, or the Matrix trilogy, or The Chronicles of Narnia. There are many to choose from.

                              We love these stories because they point us back to Jesus if we are Christians, or spirituality in general if we are not.

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                              • #45
                                Clark is analogous to Christ, and you could say that Davis is analogous to the anti-Christ. But I don't think any of the other characters really have a biblical counterpart.

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