Evidence of Religion in Smallville

[zodiscoming12345]

I have always wondered which characters on Smallville are religious. Here is the evidence that we have for each character.

Jonathan and Martha: Lara spoke of them being at church.

Lex and Lionel: They are always talking about Bible stories like the Tower of Babel and Cain and Abel

Clark: Lives by most Christian morals except that he has sex before marriage and lives with Lana outside of marriage

Chloe: Has one of those Catholic necklaces in Progeny

Any ideas which characters might be religious.

[TOMophilus]

^^Why? I´m so glad that religion does not play an important part in Smallvllle, because I don´t want to have a particular religion pushed in my face when watching a TV show.

Why would Clark be religious? Just because he behaves morally? Morality is not necessarily connected to religion. It´s the result of a decent upbringing. And religion is not the same as Christianity. (Of course, if you get raised on a farm in Kansas, you´d probably be a conservative Christian.) Finally, I am glad that they show Clark having sex before marriage, because there are absolutely no reasons why anyone should refrain from that. Not even the Bible prohibits that, as far as I know. It´s just a rumor made up by clergy to make young people unhappy.

[zodiscoming12345]

No the Bible does tell you not to have sex before marriage. Its called fornication and it is a very serious sin.

I wish they didn't have him having sex before marriage. Even some of society is trying to stop people from doing that. Places like the Door of Hope.

[ginnyfan]

I think it's cool that the show leaves it open. You can fill in the blanks however you choose.

[stenochick]

I think the whole Superman myth is an allegory for the story of Moses or Jesus, and most likely other savior-heroes of other religions and mythologies.

I love all the references they make to Judeo-Christianity, Greek and Roman mythology, and history in general. I take them in the same way I do all the Angel Warrior references and Superman mythology references -- as a "wink-wink" to the audience.

I never really thought of individual characters as really committed to a certain religion or spiritual practice. I would assume that the Kents go to some Protestant denomination church every Sunday and that their beliefs are the foundation for their morals and politcal views*, but that they are not "Jesus freaks."

*I get the feeling that Jonathon was a Republican based on his socially conservative values and Martha was a Democrat based on her much more liberal values. But Jonathon must have been a Democrat if he defeated Lex Luthor, who in my opinion is a Conservative Republican if only to protect his own billions of dollars in assets from being taxed. Plus Lex was always talking about the threat of terrorists.

It is hard to say if the Luthors are believers or not. It is almost is a moot point, because even if they think God is real, they still think they are more powerful than Him.

[zodiscoming12345]

Yes, Lex definately does think he is more powerful. I always assumed the Kents were a Christian Family but like you said they aren't religious fanatics. They are your average farm family who probably goes to church on Sunday and believes in the doctrine. However, I am pretty sure that the actor John Schneider is a Christian.

[stenochick]

I saw John Schneider on 700 Club promoting a Christian Independent film he was starring in. I would definitely assume he is an Evangelical Christian, which is the term I use to differentiate the ones who live it out as more of a lifestyle compared to those who are more traditional denominational Christians. I hope that makes sense. I picture the Kents being more traditional than evangelical. They don't wear their faith on their sleeves, but you assume it's there.

[zodiscoming12345]

Yeah, I'm an evangelical Christian. But its cool that they are traditional.

[zodiscoming12345]

Yeah, if they got religion involved, it would probably push a lot of the viewers away.

[Kal26]

Yeah, if they got religion involved, it would probably push a lot of the viewers away.

Sorry, I hadn't refreshed to see that you responded to my post before I deleted it. I just didn't want to come off as though I was arguing against religion, as you weren't asking if it should be in the show or not, but rather looking for evidence of it already being in the show. I felt my comment was uncalled for based on that. I agree with what you said though. It could go both ways as far as pushing people who don't like religion away, or the lack of could push people who do like religion away. I guess it can be a double edge sword. In my opinion, it's best to leave things vague so that we can make of it what we want.

[zodiscoming12345]

Sorry, I hadn't refreshed to see that you responded to my post before I deleted it. I just didn't want to come off as though I was arguing against religion, as you weren't asking if it should be in the show or not, but rather looking for evidence of it already being in the show. I felt my comment was uncalled for based on that. I agree with what you said though. It could go both ways as far as pushing people who don't like religion away, or the lack of could push people who do like religion away. I guess it can be a double edge sword. In my opinion, it's best to leave things vague so that we can make of it what we want.

Yeah, thats good.

[MBrittan]

Lex and Lionel: They are always talking about Bible stories like the Tower of Babel and Cain and Abel

I don't think Lex and Lionel treat the Bible as religious material. I think they treat it as mythology. They speak of it the same way they do Zeus or Achiles.
-M-

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----


^^Why? I´m so glad that religion does not play an important part in Smallvllle, because I don´t want to have a particular religion pushed in my face when watching a TV show.

I don't think just because it's present means anyone's "shoving it down your throat". Frankly, that phrase gets waaay overused.

----- Added 7 Minutes later -----


Morality is not necessarily connected to religion. It´s the result of a decent upbringing.

The two are not mutually exclusive but they do tend to go together. Because usually when parents are passionate enough to share their religion with their children, they're passionate enough to share the "moral" lifestyle that goes with it. It doesn't make sense to teach a child about God and then turn a blind eye to immoral behavior. I find that many people who criticize public displays of religion are the ones who don't want to be inconvenienced by living a "decent" lifestyle (ie staying out of the bars on Saturday night, being in church early Sunday morning, monogamy, etc.). Many people don't want to give those things up so their "defense mechanism" is to bash religion, saying that others are "forcing it down their throats". I think those people suffer from a guilty conscience.
-M-

[krewsaider]

Yeah, if they got religion involved, it would probably push a lot of the viewers away.

I think so too because religion doesn't really have a place on a show like Smallville. I do like some of the references Lex and Lionel make though. It serves a good purpose between their arguments.

[zodiscoming12345]

Yeah, although they did have a bit more religion in Season 7 than they typically do in the show.

[xrayvision]

Morality & religion definitely go together. Most laws and what is considered right/wrong in socities are derived from religions and things like the 10 Commandments.

I think they suggest that the characters do practice the religions they follow (like how Clark knew about Saint Christopher being the Patron Saint of Travelers in Slumber & Martha coming down on Clark after getting married to Alicia in Unsafe) but don't go into the details. I like that approach and how they at least acknowledge its existence.

[zodiscoming12345]

Yeah its not like it doesn't exist in the show.

[xrayvision]

Yeah, although they did have a bit more religion in Season 7 than they typically do in the show.

I was turned off by that scene in Quest though (a bad setting for that). I thought that was really unnecessary, and was really illogical. Why would someone who supposedly dedicated his life to the Traveler want to kill him? I really hated what they did to the mythos of the show this past season.

[zodiscoming12345]

Yeah I didn't get that scene. Clark didn't want to follow his destiny so Edward throws him onto a slab and plans to pull an Abraham to Issac right there in the church.

[stenochick]

Well, Edward Teague was cuckoo. There are crazy religious people. Look at Al Qaeda, for example.

Some people won't face the darkness inside them so they turn to religion as a front, a way to deny their true urges instead of just admitting they have a shadow side. Or, like suicide bombers, they convince themselves that they are doing God's will by murdering innocents (or that the innocents are evil).

Even Lex used denial. Instead of religion, Lex used patriotism. Remember when he would tell his dad that his experiments would help fight the war on terror?

[zodiscoming12345]

Yeah, while he was making crazy mutant clones.

[Kal26]

I was turned off by that scene in Quest though (a bad setting for that). I thought that was really unnecessary, and was really illogical. Why would someone who supposedly dedicated his life to the Traveler want to kill him? I really hated what they did to the mythos of the show this past season.

I'm thinking that he wanted to kill him so that Lex wouldn't be able to control him, and end humanity. I think it was Clark not wanting to accept his destiny, and stop Lex from finding the stone, or whatever, that caused teague to do that. I agree that it was unnecessary though.





The two are not mutually exclusive but they do tend to go together. Because usually when parents are passionate enough to share their religion with their children, they're passionate enough to share the "moral" lifestyle that goes with it. It doesn't make sense to teach a child about God and then turn a blind eye to immoral behavior. I find that many people who criticize public displays of religion are the ones who don't want to be inconvenienced by living a "decent" lifestyle (ie staying out of the bars on Saturday night, being in church early Sunday morning, monogamy, etc.). Many people don't want to give those things up so their "defense mechanism" is to bash religion, saying that others are "forcing it down their throats". I think those people suffer from a guilty conscience.
-M-

I'm not saying this about you, but I think this attitude by some who are religious is more a form or prejudice against people who aren't religious than anything else. I've never been religious, nor will I ever be, but I did take the time to study many religions in depth. Not just what's been taught in churches, but the historical beginnings of some religions, and not just the stories that are in current forms of the various bibles, but how they were in their original forms, and how they came to be.

I'm not religious based on my feelings about what I've found, not because I suffer from a guilty conscience. I feel there are some who do what you've said, but there are a vast majority of people who don't buy into religion based on their beliefs about the nature of religion itself.

Like the statement about being in church on Sunday morning. Not sure how not going to a church on Sunday makes you morally wrong.

Now, just because I don't believe in religion, doesn't mean I don't respect that some do. Therefore, I expect people to respect that I have studied religion, and don't want any part of it, and I will respect that obviously you have found something in it that you do like, and do believe in. I would never want to take that away from anyone else, and wouldn't want my beliefs taken away from me. The fact that many of us get told on a regular basis that " We're wrong, and are going to hell" is why we feel that it's always getting shoved in our faces.

The hostility comes from being told by people (not you) that haven't studied anything outside the recent version of their religion, that because we don't want to abide by their way of life (as far as they know), we must not want to be good people, or decent as you put it. My thing is that I don't think being decent, or moral, has anything to do with religion. It has to do with being a good person, and wanting the best for your fellow man, no matter what they believe. I know very religious people, who can't seem to grasp that part, but I also know very religious people who do.

As far as religion on the show, I can't think of many examples, but wouldn't be opposed to it if their were.

[Harrison]

Although SV doesnt really mention religion much, Jonathan and Martha are definately religious, which influenced Clarks character and high values as well. Imagine him raised by Luthors? Clark on red-k would look like a peach to a monster to which Clark probably would have grown to.

[stenochick]

We shouldn't make "religious" synonimous with "moral."

There are a lot of agnostics/atheists/secular humanists/etc. out there who raise their families with morals and spiritual values but do not practice a particular religion.

There are also some really messed-up people who spout all kinds of religious dogma as well as people in cults. They have kids, too. Kids who will probably need therapy at some point in their lives.

[Kal26]

Although SV doesnt really mention religion much, Jonathan and Martha are definately religious, which influenced Clarks character and high values as well. Imagine him raised by Luthors? Clark on red-k would look like a peach to a monster to which Clark probably would have grown to.

I'm not sure that not being religious is what makes the Luthors who they are, as I believe you can be without religion, and still be moral, and have religion, and still be immoral.

I think if Clark were to be raised by an agnostic family, or even an atheist family with a high moral code, his outcome would have been the same as with the Kents.




We shouldn't make "religious" synonimous with "moral."

There are a lot of agnostics/atheists/secular humanists/etc. out there who raise their families with morals and spiritual values but do not practice a particular religion.

There are also some really messed-up people who spout all kinds of religious dogma as well as people in cults. They have kids, too. Kids who will probably need therapy at some point in their lives.

My sentiments exactly. :)

[jimmyolsenblues]

I say this will all due respect and I do not want to insult anyone or anyone's beliefs.
traditionally in the comics superman is somewhat an analogy to a saviour/god figure. but i don't see religon being pushed on smallville.

[Kal26]

He can be seen that way, but I can't say he was meant to be seen that way.

Personally, I've always seen Superman as something different. He doesn't only save people who believe in his religion, who only eat meat on certain days of the week, or who repent their "sins". He saves anyone, and everyone who needs saving.

I mean no disrespect by the above, just making my point. That is, that I see Superman as a savior to all, not tied in to one religion, but if anything a way to tie all human beings together, and inspire as mankind, rather than Christian, Jew, Muslim, Atheist, and so on.

I think jimmyolsenblues nailed it by using general terms, "a savior/god figure". I can definitely see him as a savior. I can also see him as a god figure, but no god that is currently excepted by a specific religion. As I said, I see him as something different.

[stenochick]

I say this will all due respect and I do not want to insult anyone or anyone's beliefs.
traditionally in the comics superman is somewhat an analogy to a saviour/god figure. but i don't see religon being pushed on smallville.

Amen! (just kidding!)

I think regardless of our individual beliefs, those of us who have been posting in this thread would agree with you.

[zodiscoming12345]

Well, even thought the creators of Superman were Jewish, I have read that they actually came up with the idea of him from Jesus Christ. The two of them are both sent to Earth by their fathers to save humanity.

[Kal26]

I can't say for sure that they did that or not, as Jews don't believe that Jesus was the son of god, or the savior. They do, as far as I know, believe that a savior will come, but that Jesus didn't fit the bill. So, they could have based him on their version of what the Jewish religion thinks their savior will be. Don't know. I've read a lot on the creators, and have only read peoples opinions that he was based on Jesus, never from Siegel and Shuster themselves. However, I have been wrong before.

[Harrison]

We shouldn't make "religious" synonimous with "moral."

There are a lot of agnostics/atheists/secular humanists/etc. out there who raise their families with morals and spiritual values but do not practice a particular religion.

There are also some really messed-up people who spout all kinds of religious dogma as well as people in cults. They have kids, too. Kids who will probably need therapy at some point in their lives.
Religion and morality arent synonyms, they simply go hand to hand. Simply watch what each school of thought is teaching - one tries to make society better, to love each other, another teaches to take from life everything you can, to be the egoist because "the fittiest survives". Important note, currently society is increasingly atheistical, and even those who says they are religious - they usualy just follow the family tradition and dont really follow religious rules. How is the morality in our cultures is looking? Its dissapearing, fast.

There are definately some atheists who are more moral than some guys who claim to be religious (while they actualy arent), but you cant judge all by few. Majority of religious (not by name but in actions) will strive to improve themselves and to make world the better place, while majority of atheists will strive for their own enjoyiment mainly, even at the expense of others, thats exactly whats happening in our increasingly atheistical societies.

[Kal26]

Religion and morality arent synonyms, they simply go hand to hand. Simply watch what each school of thought is teaching - one tries to make society better, to love each other, another teaches to take from life everything you can, to be the egoist because "the fittiest survives". Important note, currently society is increasingly atheistical, and even those who says they are religious - they usualy just follow the family tradition and dont really follow religious rules. How is the morality in our cultures is looking? Its dissapearing, fast.

There are definately some atheists who are more moral than some guys who claim to be religious (while they actualy arent), but you cant judge all by few. Majority of religious (not by name but in actions) will strive to improve themselves and to make world the better place, while majority of atheists will strive for their own enjoyiment mainly, even at the expense of others, thats exactly whats happening in our increasingly atheistical societies.

By reading this, I can see that you have no Idea what it means to be atheist. An atheist simply doesn't believe in any religion. They believe that god, or the devil, in any form, don't exist. Not that you should be all about yourself. They believe that if you are a good person, you should continue to be out of a love for your fellow man, not because you'll go to hell if you don't.

As you said, there are good and bad in both schools of thought, but you should know those schools of thought before you say that one specifically teaches something that it doesn't.

Also, if your going to say things like "most do", or "the majority" this or that, you should show some concrete evidence. If not, your just saying what you think, and making it sound like fact. The truth is, you have no idea what the majority of Atheists believe. Just like you have no idea what the majority of Christians believe.

Here is a quote from atheists.org

"He seeks to know himself and his fellow man rather than to know a god. An Atheist believes that a hospital should be built instead of a church. An Atheist believes that a deed must be done instead of a prayer said. An Atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death. He wants disease conquered, poverty vanquished, war eliminated. He wants man to understand and love man."

I can't see how any of that sounds like anything you said about Atheism.

[Harrison]

I'm not sure that not being religious is what makes the Luthors who they are, as I believe you can be without religion, and still be moral, and have religion, and still be immoral.

I think if Clark were to be raised by an agnostic family, or even an atheist family with a high moral code, his outcome would have been the same as with the Kents.

well, you cant be religious and immoral, they are mutualy exclusive. The thing is, what you base your values on? Lets say religious person knows if he does something wrong, he will face the consequances, regardless if state law will catch him or not (or even if state law doesnt see anything wrong with some bad actions). Thats why they try to avoid doing something wrong. Another important thing is, what you strive for. If you believe in God, you strive for perfection, love, etc. As in saying, tell me who your ideals are, and I tell who you are :)

Now lets take atheists, what they base values on? Personal enjoyment ofc! if they are tempted by circumstances to do something immoral, and they know they wont be caught by law, what do you think they will do?.. And what they strive for? Lets say, quite some of them dont strive for the perfection ;)

That said, it doesnt matter who you assign yourself to, your actions determine who you are.

[zodiscoming12345]

I'm not trying to bash Atheists or anything but I believe in God. When you said that they tempted to do something immoral and they know they won't get caught by the law, they do it. Well the law may not see them but God sees them. Then the Atheist can say "Well, I don't believe in God." It doesn't matter. Lay down on a highway and say "I don't believe in trucks" and see what happens.

[stenochick]

"well, you cant be religious and immoral"

Where do I start? Britney Spears circa 2000, various members of the US government, various members of the Catholic priesthood, Jesse Jackson when he committed adultery, Christian ministers who have committed adultery, Christian politicians who are closet homosexuals*...

They exist and they are called hypocrits.

*I felt the need to add a disclaimer. There are Christians who deny that they are gay because they have been taught that it is sin, so they deny those urges, some to the point of being homophobic. The urges then come out in immoral ways such as pedophila or sexual promiscuity. I was not implying that simply being gay was immoral.

[zodiscoming12345]

Yes, religious hypocrits. However, when it comes right down to it, all of us have committed adultery.

Jesus said "Whoever looks with lust has committed adultery in their heart".

[Kal26]

well, you cant be religious and immoral, they are mutualy exclusive. The thing is, what you base your values on? Lets say religious person knows if he does something wrong, he will face the consequances, regardless if state law will catch him or not (or even if state law doesnt see anything wrong with some bad actions). Thats why they try to avoid doing something wrong. Another important thing is, what you strive for. If you believe in God, you strive for perfection, love, etc. As in saying, tell me who your ideals are, and I tell who you are :)

Now lets take atheists, what they base values on? Personal enjoyment ofc! if they are tempted by circumstances to do something immoral, and they know they wont be caught by law, what do you think they will do?.. And what they strive for? Lets say, quite some of them dont strive for the perfection ;)

That said, it doesnt matter who you assign yourself to, your actions determine who you are.

You really need to learn something about Atheism before you continue to say things about it that are absolutely false. Read the quote I added to my above post.

You can't be religious, and immoral? Really? Cause I can quote things to you all day about religious people who have done highly immoral things. Like the priest in my state who murdered a nun, or the incident with the young boys not too long ago. Your argument is flawed in that it's not based in reality.

The reality is, that people will be moral, or immoral no matter if they are religious, or not. It all boils down to the person, and his or her desires. If a person let's his or her immoral desires rule them, then they will be immoral. The only thing different about a person with religion is that they have a god to tell them not to be immoral, and others are moral all on their own. I don't need to be scared into being a good person, I see the need to be good, and do it on my own. I'm not out to fulfill my desires, I'm out to make this world a better place for all to live in, not just those who agree with me on which god to worship, and how to worship. You see, I think we should do right, because it's right, not because we fear the consequences that come along with doing wrong. How does it make you a good person, if your good only out of fear? I would think a good person should do what's right no matter the consequences of doing wrong. If you only do right to get a reward (what you want), then in fact you are only serving your own selfish desires.

I didn't set out to argue about religion, so I'll leave it as, you think what you want, and I'll think what I want. But you should really get informed on the beliefs of others before you make judgments based on things that they really don't believe.

[Harrison]

Also, if your going to say things like "most do", or "the majority" this or that, you should show some concrete evidence. If not, your just saying what you think, and making it sound like fact. The truth is, you have no idea what the majority of Atheists believe. Just like you have no idea what the majority of Christians believe.
Concrete example is current Western society. You have to agree its more and more atheistical, teaching in schools is almost exclusively atheistical. What about morality then? Its dissapearing, since it lost its foundation, I hope you can see that.

[Pedroff]

I didn't set out to argue about religion

I'm glad you didn't, you're really not an expert on it. :cool:

[berniepooh]

I'm not trying to bash Atheists or anything but I believe in God. When you said that they tempted to do something immoral and they know they won't get caught by the law, they do it. Well the law may not see them but God sees them. Then the Atheist can say "Well, I don't believe in God." It doesn't matter. Lay down on a highway and say "I don't believe in trucks" and see what happens.

Uhm,... I'm not an atheist but I have quite a few friends and a couple relatives that are and they all live by a highly developed and strict ethical code. They are highly critical of people who break the law when they think they won't get caught, and they live exemplary lives. I think you know different atheists than I do.

[Kal26]

Concrete example is current Western society. You have to agree its more and more atheistical, teaching in schools is almost exclusively atheistical. What about morality then? Its dissapearing, since it lost its foundation, I hope you can see that.

No, I don't. They don't teach people not to believe in religion. They just don't impose one religion on everyone.

What I meant by not speaking for the majority, is that you can't say what the majority of Atheists believe without quoting some factual statistics on the matter. My point is that none of us know what the majority of any religion believes.

[zodiscoming12345]

Uhm,... I'm not an atheist but I have quite a few friends and a couple relatives that are and they all live by a highly developed and strict ethical code. They are highly critical of people who break the law when they think they won't get caught, and they live exemplary lives. I think you know different atheists than I do.

I was responding to something that someone else wrote. However, you not being an Atheist, you should know that doing good things will not get you to Heaven.

[Kal26]

I'm glad you didn't, you're really not an expert on it. :cool:

I never claimed to be. Are you qualified to judge who is, or isn't an expert? ;)

I'm just pointing out some facts about a set of beliefs that have been utterly distorted by another poster.

[Harrison]

You really need to learn something about Atheism before you continue to say things about it that are absolutely false. Read the quote I added to my above post.
I was atheist as well, I studied it too, I didnt liked the fruits its bearing ;) That quote would sound nice if I didnt know better, it has little to no foundation. For example most wars starts because some people want more power, more land, more... etc., guess its religious or atheistical principles?



You can't be religious, and immoral? Really? Cause I can quote things to you all day about religious people who have done highly immoral things. Like the priest in my state who murdered a nun, or the incident with the young boys not too long ago. Your argument is flawed in that it's not based in reality.
There are criminals everywhere, but if you incline religion is teaching that guy to murder the nun, seriously? :) You have to judge the philosophy based on its teaching, not on random guys action which has nothing to do with the teaching.



The reality is, that people will be moral, or immoral no matter if they are religious, or not. It all boils down to the person, and his or her desires. If a person let's his or her immoral desires rule them, then they will be immoral. The only thing different about a person with religion is that they have a god to tell them not to be immoral, and others are moral all on their own. I don't need to be scared into being a good person, I see the need to be good, and do it on my own. I'm not out to fulfill my desires, I'm out to make this world a better place for all to live in, not just those who agree with me on which god to worship, and how to worship.
The difference is what you strive for. If you strive for perfection (i.e. God), even if you are generaly a bad guy, you will improve to the direction you are moving to. Granted, atheists can strive for the good things as well, but what is good and what is not? They dont believe in God's teaching, so what is good for them? One can say, as many people, as many opinions what is good ;) Without common denomination, you will have as many understanding what is good as there are people, some would say even 10 Commandments is bad, its their choice, right? So what goal would they achieve?..

----- Added 18 Minutes later -----


No, I don't. They don't teach people not to believe in religion. They just don't impose one religion on everyone.

What I meant by not speaking for the majority, is that you can't say what the majority of Atheists believe without quoting some factual statistics on the matter. My point is that none of us know what the majority of any religion believes.
So you dont see Western societies becoming more atheistical and losing morality? :\ Just watch the movies, made 50 years ago, 25 years ago and current, you will notice the pattern. More violence, more sex (on scene even), etc.

[Kal26]

I want to make it known that I'm not arguing against religion, or practicing a religion. I want that to be very clear. The only reason I have gone this far with the argument is to clear up what I think are misconceptions about Atheists. I personally respect all forms of religion, and encourage others to do the same. I also encourage others to be open minded about people who don't practice, or believe in religion. Please don't take anything I've said to be a cut against your religion.


I was atheist as well, I studied it too, I didnt liked the fruits its bearing ;) That quote would sound nice if I didnt know better, it has little to no foundation. For example most wars starts because some people want more power, more land, more... etc., guess its religious or atheistical principles?


Well, the quote came from the president of atheists.org. So, yes, that is what they teach, and I have no Idea what you learned, but it goes along with the idea that you have to pick your teacher wisely.

When talking about war, you make it sound like atheists are responsible for it. The truth is, many, many wars over the years were in fact started by a religion.




There are criminals everywhere, but if you incline religion is teaching that guy to murder the nun, seriously? :) You have to judge the philosophy based on its teaching, not on random guys action which has nothing to do with the teaching.


I would never imply that a religion was responsible for that priest murdering a nun. I was just pointing out that saying that you can't be religious and immoral, as you said, was false. Anyone is capable of committing an immoral act, religious, or not.



The difference is what you strive for. If you strive for perfection (i.e. God), even if you are generaly a bad guy, you will improve to the direction you are moving to. Granted, atheists can strive for the good things as well, but what is good and what is not? They dont believe in God's teaching, so what is good for them? One can say, as many people, as many opinions what is good ;) Without common denomination, you will have as many understanding what is good as there are people, some would say even 10 Commandments is bad, its their choice, right? So what goal would they achieve?..

What is good for me, is what helps people, not what hurts them. I don't need to be told by a god that's it's wrong to kill, because I know that it's not right to take some one's life, no matter how much I may think they don't deserve it. I don't need a god to tell me that war is wrong, because I can see how many people it hurts, and because I can't take another human life for any reason, especially not one my government tells me is ok.

I think people need to do good, and strive for good, because they want to be good, and want to help our society. That's all I'm saying, and that's what every Atheist I've ever known has said as well. It's not that they don't want to believe in a god out of disrespect, or wanting to only do what they want, but they honestly don't believe one exists.





So you dont see Western societies becoming more atheistical and losing morality? :\ Just watch the movies, made 50 years ago, 25 years ago and current, you will notice the pattern. More violence, more sex (on scene even), etc.

I see movies becoming more violent, yes, but I can't say for sure it has to do with being Atheist, because I know Atheists who don't believe in violence. An absence of god has nothing to do with an absence of morality, in my opinion. I don't believe in god, but I try to be the best person I can be.

I'm just shooting from my hip pocket here, but I'd say that most of the writers, and directors of the films your talking about are religious.

Take Superman Returns for instance. Superman and Lois have a child out of wedlock, and therefore had to have sex out of wedlock. Singer is Jewish.

[Pedroff]

I never claimed to be. Are you qualified to judge who is, or isn't an expert? ;)

I'm just pointing out some facts about a set of beliefs that have been utterly distorted by another poster.

Heh just saying you sound like every other atheist that attempts to say something about religion that doesn't know exactly all about said religion but it's not your fault since you're not religious. ;):cool:

[zodiscoming12345]

I see movies becoming more violent, yes, but I can't say for sure it has to do with being Atheist, because I know Atheists who don't believe in violence. An absence of god has nothing to do with an absence of morality, in my opinion. I don't believe in god, but I try to be the best person I can be.

So, would you consider yourself to be a good person?

[Harrison]

Well, the quote came from the president of atheists.org. So, yes, that is what they teach, and I have no Idea what you learned, but it goes along with the idea that you have to pick your teacher wisely.
I never heard of that site before, nor that president. I do know though those who influenced hundreds of millions people, also their ideas and teaching, like Karl Marx, Lenin, S.Freud, Mao Tse Tung, etc.



When talking about war, you make it sound like atheists are responsible for it. The truth is, many, many wars over the years were in fact started by a religion. Let's not forget that the Catholic church had people hunted down, and burned at the stake for being witches in Europe. They were also responsible for the annihilation of entire villages, all in the name of a god.
Actualy, most wars are started by the lack of religion, as I said - because of greed, desire of power, fortune, etc. The wars you mentioned were in fact based on the same reasons just with convenient slogan "in the name of God", etc., while God or religion had nothing to do with their real intentions. If you follow the teaching, you wont go gathering slaves, burning those who looked funny at you or robing some gold :lol: As there is saying, actions speak louder than words. You can say you are "insert anything", but its your actions who determine who you really are.



I would never imply that a religion was responsible for that priest murdering a nun. I was just pointing out that saying that you can't be religious and immoral, as you said, was false. Anyone is capable of committing an immoral act, religious, or not.
if that priest would have been religious, he wouldnt have done it. The reasons he did this have nothing to do with God or religion, so why you mix it? As I said, there are criminals everywhere, in schools, universities, etc. If teacher kills or molest some kid, does this mean teaching system, or teachers as a whole have anything to do with it? No, you cant generalize like that. In the same way religiosity has nothing to do with random guys actions if its not according the teaching.



What is good for me, is what helps people, not what hurts them. I don't need to be told by a god that's it's wrong to kill, because I know that it's not right to take some one's life, no matter how much I may think they don't deserve it. I don't need a god to tell me that war is wrong, because I can see how many people it hurts, and because I can't take another human life for any reason, especially not one my government tells me is ok.
Thats good, and I wish all atheists would think like that since it would be the start. My points again is -as you good as your intentions are, if there isnt one common denomination of what is good and whats not, society will be in trouble. State laws can uphold pretty much only more obvious or brutal aspects, they rarely affects more subtle area like morality, so everyone does in this area whatever they think its right. And no, not everyones understanding is in the best regards of society. Like cheating husband/wife isnt persecuted in most countries in any way, is it good? They do feel good at those moments, but in the end its usualy broken families, abortions, etc. Religion is an additional filter to prevent this from happening, and if person is in any way interested to perfect himself as he should, such immoral actions diminish to minimum.

[Pedroff]

Originally Posted by Kal26 View Post
When talking about war, you make it sound like atheists are responsible for it. The truth is, many, many wars over the years were in fact started by a religion. Let's not forget that the Catholic church had people hunted down, and burned at the stake for being witches in Europe.

Just a correction here, it was Puritans not Catholics. ;):cool:

[Kal26]

Heh just saying you sound like every other atheist that attempts to say something about religion that doesn't know exactly all about said religion but it's not your fault since you're not religious. ;):cool:

I'm actually not Atheist. I'm agnostic, meaning, I haven't quite decided what I believe, but am open to the possibility of a god, or was. I'm leaning more toward Atheism, and yes, I do know what a few religions are saying. I've read the christian bible, as my entire family is Christian and insisted on it when I was a child. I went to a Christian school for three years of my life, and went to church until I was about 8 years old. I studied multiple religions in college including the history of Christianity. I just don't agree with what it's saying. Not that I think there is anything wrong with you agreeing with it. Knowing the origins, and parts of the teachings that have been left out for the benefit of the religion, I don't.

----- Added 2 Minutes later -----


Originally Posted by Kal26 View Post
When talking about war, you make it sound like atheists are responsible for it. The truth is, many, many wars over the years were in fact started by a religion. Let's not forget that the Catholic church had people hunted down, and burned at the stake for being witches in Europe.

Just a correction here, it was Puritans not Catholics. ;):cool:

No, actually in Europe it was the Catholic Pope who ordered the hunts. It was ruled that believing in magic, or witchcraft was heresy, punishable by death. Puritans did it in the U.S. much later. It was also the Catholic Pope who ordered the beheadings of people who didn't follow his rule. That included priests who didn't lie about the interpretation of the bible.

----- Added 6 Minutes later -----


So, would you consider yourself to be a good person?

Yes, I would. I do everything I can to make sure I look out for those less fortunate than myself, don't put others down for their beliefs, and would never do anything to harm another. I want everyone to feel the way they should, special. I'd say the only thing about me that's different from someone who's religious is that I don't believe in a god.

[stenochick]

A lot of debate in my absence...

I shy away from debates about religion, politics, and Chloe vs. Lois, as a general rule.:o

[zodiscoming12345]

A lot of debate in my absence...

I shy away from debates about religion, politics, and Chloe vs. Lois, as a general rule.:o

Lol, Chloe vs. Lana

[Pedroff]

I'm actually not Atheist. I'm agnostic, meaning, I haven't quite decided what I believe, but am open to the possibility of a god, or was. I'm leaning more toward Atheism, and yes, I do know what a few religions are saying. I've read the christian bible, as my entire family is Christian and insisted on it when I was a child.

Then I guess you forgot about the "God gave free will" part when you said that they do what god tells them to do. It's not that p[B]eople do what God tells them to do it's more of a guide that teaches if you do so and so it's wrong but it's still your decision.




No, actually in Europe it was the Catholic Pope who ordered the hunts. It was ruled that believing in magic, or witchcraft was heresy, punishable by death. Puritans did it in the U.S. much later.


Actually it's not for witchcraft about the Catholics, that was the puritans, it was other reasons, but I'll let you read up on it to clarify.

[zodiscoming12345]

Yes, I would. I do everything I can to make sure I look out for those less fortunate than myself, don't put others down for their beliefs, and would never do anything to harm another. I want everyone to feel the way they should, special. I'd say the only thing about me that's different from someone who's religious is that I don't believe in a god

Do you think you have kept the Ten Commandments?

[Kal26]

I never heard of that site before, nor that president. I do know though those who influenced hundreds of millions people, also their ideas and teaching, like Karl Marx, Lenin, S.Freud, Mao Tse Tung, etc.


Well, I know Freud's work in psychology, but not his opinions of religion. All I'm pointing out is that as with religion, there are going to be good influences, and bad influences. As you said to me about religion, you can't judge them all based on a few.




Actualy, most wars are started by the lack of religion, as I said - because of greed, desire of power, fortune, etc. The wars you mentioned were in fact based on the same reasons just with convenient slogan "in the name of God", etc., while God or religion had nothing to do with their real intentions. If you follow the teaching, you wont go gathering slaves, burning those who looked funny at you or robing some gold :lol: As there is saying, actions speak louder than words. You can say you are "insert anything", but its your actions who determine who you really are.


That's the point I've been trying to make. You can say your religious, and still be immoral. You can say your religious, and be moral.

In the same respect, you can say your Atheist, and be immoral, or you can say your Atheist, and be moral.

In the end, it's based on the actions of the individual. That we agree on.




if that priest would have been religious, he wouldnt have done it. The reasons he did this have nothing to do with God or religion, so why you mix it? As I said, there are criminals everywhere, in schools, universities, etc. If teacher kills or molest some kid, does this mean teaching system, or teachers as a whole have anything to do with it? No, you cant generalize like that. In the same way religiosity has nothing to do with random guys actions if its not according the teaching.


I'm not mixing it. I guess I didn't see the distinction you were making between religion, and actually being religious. I'm not saying that religion is corrupt based on that one priest killing someone. What I'm saying is that he was able to believe in god, and still commit murder. So, having religion in your life doesn't mean you can't be immoral. However, I know understand that you weren't arguing about that. You can believe in a religion, and still be corrupted. The same as you can believe in a religion, and truly follow it to the point that you won't be corrupted.

I am simply trying to get the point across that you can be a good person, and not follow a religion. Like you say, it all has to do with the actions of the person.




Thats good, and I wish all atheists would think like that since it would be the start. My points again is -as you good as your intentions are, if there isnt one common denomination of what is good and whats not, society will be in trouble. State laws can uphold pretty much only more obvious or brutal aspects, they rarely affects more subtle area like morality, so everyone does in this area whatever they think its right. And no, not everyones understanding is in the best regards of society. Like cheating husband/wife isnt persecuted in most countries in any way, is it good? They do feel good at those moments, but in the end its usualy broken families, abortions, etc. Religion is an additional filter to prevent this from happening, and if person is in any way interested to perfect himself as he should, such immoral actions diminish to minimum.

I don't really disagree with this. I just don't think I should have to worship a god that I don't believe exists in order to follow a sort of universal moral code. Not that their is anything wrong with believing a god exists, trust me, I'd feel much better if I knew he/she did, but I simply don't feel he/she does. I do want to perfect myself to be the best person I can be, but I have no higher power that I'm modeling myself after.

[zodiscoming12345]

I don't really disagree with this. I just don't think I should have to worship a god that I don't believe exists in order to follow a sort of universal moral code. Not that their is anything wrong with believing a god exists, trust me, I'd feel much better if I knew he/she did, but I simply don't feel he/she does. I do want to perfect myself to be the best person I can be, but I have no higher power that I'm modeling myself after.

I can prove to you that God exists in about five minutes.

[Kal26]

Then I guess you forgot about the "God gave free will" part when you said that they do what god tells them to do. It's not that p[B]eople do what God tells them to do it's more of a guide that teaches if you do so and so it's wrong but it's still your decision.


What are you talking about? I know god gave free will. I'm not even sure where you get that I said people did something because god told them to. What I was saying is that god tells people in some religions that this is right, and that is wrong. They then have the option to do right, and get into heaven (a reward), or do wrong, and go to hell.

I don't work on the reward, or punishment philosophy. I do right because I want to do right, not because I want to get into heaven. I don't do wrong, because I don't want to harm others in any way, not because I have a fear of going to hell.





Actually it's not for witchcraft about the Catholics, that was the puritans, it was other reasons, but I'll let you read up on it to clarify.

Again, I have read up on it. I took a whole class in college on it. Have you ever heard of the inquisition. The pope ordered people who were suspected of heresy to be tried, and killed. Use of, or belief in magic (witchcraft) was considered against god, and was therefore ruled as a form of heresy. So, people accused of this were killed. This happened in the middle ages long before the Salem witch trials.

----- Added 2 Minutes later -----


Do you think you have kept the Ten Commandments?

For the most part. I mean, I've lied, although I've strictly gone against that now. I've stolen in my youth, but will never do that again either. The above were done when I actually considered myself a christian though, and was going to church. I've actually been harder on myself following leaving the church than I was before.

----- Added 4 Minutes later -----


I can prove to you that God exists in about five minutes.

I'm interested to hear what you have to say, but aren't we breaking rules by having this conversation now. I mean, we've all moved on from the topic of the thread. Should we find another way to do this, like pm, or chat, or something. It's your thread, so I guess that's left up to you unless the mods get involved.

[zodiscoming12345]

Hey Kal26,

When you look at a building, how do you know their was a builder? You can't see him, touch him, taste him, hear him, or smell him? What proof do you have for the builder?

[Kal26]

Are you getting at creation?

I believe in the big bang.

I also have held evidence of evolution in my hands. My wife studies archaeology.

To answer your question, yes, I can get proof, I can go get the specks for that building and see what company built it. I can then track that company down, call to set up a meeting, and personally shake the hand of the builder.

I hope that didn't seem snappy, as I didn't mean it that way, and you've been very nice to me. It's just becoming a long debate. :)

[zodiscoming12345]

I don't see how anyone can believe evolution.

Imagine you are walking down the beach. You find some ripples in the sand. You would conclude "You know thats neat, I'll bet the wind and the water made those ripples" but you go a little and find in the sand "John Loves Mary" with a heart around it and an arrow through it. You would conclude "Hmm, Someone must have written that" why. Because it contains information. Nature can produce patterns, it does that all the time, but it cannot produce information.

Charles Darwin even said that in order for his theory to be correct, there had to be millons of in between stages and that if none were found within 100 years, that his theory should be discarded. Well, it has been well over 100 years and none have been found. Scientists have been looking for things like the Crocoduck(half crocodile, half duck), the bull frog(half bull, half frog) and the ever famous sheep dog(half sheep half dog).

[TOMophilus]

When you look at a building, how do you know their was a builder? You can't see him, touch him, taste him, hear him, or smell him? What proof do you have for the builder?
I think you are in desperate need of reading David Hume´s "Dialogues concerning natural religion" from 1777. Your arguments for design have been dismantled already more than 200 years ago.

We know by experience that buildings are artifacts, and artifacts are by definition made by someone. But nature is not an artifact. Moreover, even if we have to admit that a building was built by someone, this person or these persons may have been dead for a long time. The builders of the pyramids are dead, and so are the builders of the Notre Dame cathedral in Paris. So why assume that the builder you have in mind is still alive?

And buildings are not built by just one person but by many. So if you want to make an argument for theism out of that, you would rather have to make an argument for polytheism, not monotheism.

No luck for you to prove the existence of God from design! :lol:

[zodiscoming12345]

I'd like to share a theory with you that I and many other creationists share about where the Coca Cola can may have come from. Billions of years ago, there was a massive explosion in outer space, no one knows what caused it just that it kinda happened, it was a Big Bang. Out of this Big Bang, issued a rock and on top of the rock was found this brown, sweet, bubbly substance. Over millions of years, aluminum crept up the side and formed itself into a can, then a lid, then a tab. Then millions of years later red and white paint fell from the sky, landed on the can, and formed the words "Coca Cola Classic 12 Ounces Original Formula"

You say "What are you doing? You are insulting my intellect."

So I am, we know that if the Coca Cola Can was made, their must be a maker, if it was designed their must be a designer. To believe that this happened by sheer chance is to move into an intellectual free zone.

[TOMophilus]

You know that you simply shut your eyes so as not to have to deal with the points I made in my post. Repeating a falsity doesn´t make it true.

If God builds or designs nature, he must obviously be a highly ordered being too. All builders known to us are highly structured or ordered beings. If every order requires someone who made it, then God must require someone who made him too. So who designed God? A Super-God? And who designed that Super-God? A Super-Super-God? And who designed... You get the point (or probably not)... :o

[Jade4813]

...So you're saying that people who believe in evolution - or even an amalgam of intelligent design and evolution - are stupid? Hm. Interesting. Completely and totally fallacious. But, you know...interesting.

Since this thread has moved off the question of religion on Smallville and onto insulting fellow posters who may or may not have the same ideology, I find I must ask. According to the rules of the forum, threads about religion must be approved first by a mod and the approval must be posted in the forum. Was such approval attained?

Either way, may I suggest the implications that people who don't believe as we do are stupid stop and the thread get back on topic? (Incidentally, that's discussion of whether there's evidence of religion in Smallville. Not discussions about whether atheists care about themselves alone or whether people are completely braindead for believing in evolution.)

[Dustmite]

I shy away from debates about religion, politics, and Chloe vs. Lois, as a general rule.:o

:lol:

This thread is getting quite heated and a little messy but your comment made me laugh out loud. I have to agree with you, all three topics can get very messy :p

[zodiscoming12345]

Okay, I never once said that people who believe in Evolution are stupid?

I had no idea about the religion rule, I must have overlooked that one. So, lets get back on the topic.

Do you think Oliver Queen has a religion?

[Kal26]

I don't see how anyone can believe evolution.


I'd say the opposite, but it's against the rules of this site. So is the conversation that we've been having for a long time now, so I'm trying to get out of it before we all get in trouble from the mods. I respect your right to feel that way, but respectfully disagree.




Nature can produce patterns, it does that all the time, but it cannot produce information.


It does in fact produce information. A lot can be learned from nature at a microscopic level.



Charles Darwin even said that in order for his theory to be correct, there had to be millons of in between stages and that if none were found within 100 years, that his theory should be discarded. Well, it has been well over 100 years and none have been found. Scientists have been looking for things like the Crocoduck(half crocodile, half duck), the bull frog(half bull, half frog) and the ever famous sheep dog(half sheep half dog).

We've actually found evidence to support that there have been several stages in the development of man. As far as I know, there is evidence to support evaluational stages in many species.

http://anthro.palomar.edu/evolve/evolve_3.htm

----- Added 3 Minutes later -----


Okay, I never once said that people who believe in Evolution are stupid?

I had no idea about the religion rule, I must have overlooked that one. So, lets get back on the topic.

Do you think Oliver Queen has a religion?

Ooops, I really didn't mean to start that up again. Sorry, I should have read the last post before I replied. I just got back from lunch.



I don't know what Olie's religion may be, but I'm guessing Christian. :)

[Pedroff]

The only thing different about a person with religion is that they have a god to tell them not to be immoral, and others are moral all on their own. I don't need to be scared into being a good person, I see the need to be good, and do it on my own.

You said it right here, you make it sound like no free will, but in actuality people with religions follow a guide just like an everyday person would follow the laws of justice, now you have a choice whether or not to follow it, which is "free will". :):D:cool:

[Kal26]

You said it right here, you make it sound like no free will, but in actuality people with religions follow a guide just like an everyday person would follow the laws of justice, now you have a choice whether or not to follow it, which is "free will". :):D:cool:

I didn't mean to sound like I didn't think there was free will involved, I know there is. I guess I didn't go into enough detail to fully explain what I was getting at, but yeah, I understand free will in religion. I also fully respect the right of each person to practice the religion of his or her choice. :)

[Atomic girl]

I don't know what Ollie's religion may be, but I'm guessing Christian. :)Why do you say that?

As a aside, no matter what you call yourself, or what others may call themselves, we can all find examples of people who said one thing and do another. Religion is whatever anyone makes it out to be, for good or bad. And these days just about any concepts formed together into any type of (barely) coherent system of thought are now called some form of religion. So today we have more "religions" than ever before, things that our forefathers would never have recognized as religion are now called as such. I guess that's one of the reasons that these discussions are so difficult. Even two people who call themselves followers of the same "religion" can have very different views, so then the discussion is even more difficult. JMHO

[Kal26]

Don't know really. Just a guess. I'd have to lean toward Catholic really. Don't ask me where that comes from. :)


I think you have more posts than anyone I've seen!

[MBrittan]

religion doesn't really have a place on a show like Smallville.

But morality does...
-M-

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----


Morality & religion definitely go together. Most laws and what is considered right/wrong in socities are derived from religions and things like the 10 Commandments.

I think they suggest that the characters do practice the religions they follow (like how Clark knew about Saint Christopher being the Patron Saint of Travelers in Slumber & Martha coming down on Clark after getting married to Alicia in Unsafe) but don't go into the details. I like that approach and how they at least acknowledge its existence.

Well said XRay. Thanks for not letting me storm this Bastille alone.
-M-

[Atomic girl]

Don't know really. Just a guess. I'd have to lean toward Catholic really. Don't ask me where that comes from. :)


I think you have more posts than anyone I've seen!Aww, you flatter me. Over in Culture, we have a girl with 40K, and several people with 20K+, I'm an amateur really.

I was just wondering if you had seen stuff that made you believe anything about Ollie.

I haven't seen anything to lead me to believe that any of the characters practice any form of religion.

[MBrittan]

Well, Edward Teague was cuckoo. There are crazy religious people. Look at Al Qaeda, for example.

Some people won't face the darkness inside them so they turn to religion as a front, a way to deny their true urges instead of just admitting they have a shadow side. Or, like suicide bombers, they convince themselves that they are doing God's will by murdering innocents (or that the innocents are evil).

Even Lex used denial. Instead of religion, Lex used patriotism. Remember when he would tell his dad that his experiments would help fight the war on terror?

People like this give genuine, God-loving people a bad name. They attach themselves to a religion (Christianity, for example) and then others outside of that religion just assume all people who practice Christianity are "Jesus freaks". It's crap. And it's stereotyping. There's a definite double-standard in this country. It's OK to call people "Jesus freaks" but the second you even mention a person's complexion, it's a full-blown scandal. People are very selective with who is "allowed" to be offended and who should just shut up and take it.
-M-

----- Added 11 Minutes later -----


I've never been religious, nor will I ever be, but I did take the time to study many religions in depth. Not just what's been taught in churches, but the historical beginnings of some religions, and not just the stories that are in current forms of the various bibles, but how they were in their original forms, and how they came to be.

You do realize that the acceptance of a particular religion is more than just "buying into" it's history, right? I think the single most important thing about religion is the lifestyle that accompanies it. Essentially, it is a guide for how to live your life. If that "guide" helps people to live good, moral lives, then religion has served its purpose. What may or may not be waiting for us in the afterlife is only a small part of it. Life's a journey, not a destination, remember? I think there are some people (not you) who think that because it is impossible to "prove" the existence of a God, it's ok to live a sinful life (because there will be no consequences). It's that kind of reckless behavior I criticize. I think even if I could somehow PROVE that there was no "God" and I had to chance to share that proof with the world, I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't do it because I know it would destroy the "good" lives that millions (billions?) of people live BECAUSE of religion.

----- Added 19 Minutes later -----


Like the statement about being in church on Sunday morning. Not sure how not going to a church on Sunday makes you morally wrong.

"Morally wrong"? No. But attending church (and fellowship activities) does have its place. A religion cannot thrive unless there are people who share it with the world. If religion isn't shared, it dies out. Missionary work and ministering to others outside of a particular religion is how religion is shared. Sadly, there are many people who feel threatened when they are approached by a stranger about religion. It shouldn't be that way. As for going to church. I like to think of it as school, in a sense. Where I learn. Where I socialize with my peers. If you don't go, how can you really experience it? It's not enough to just read about it in books. Books can give you a very "clinical" sense of what a religion is about, but to really KNOW it, you need to experience it, with others.

----- Added 21 Minutes later -----


The fact that many of us get told on a regular basis that " We're wrong, and are going to hell" is why we feel that it's always getting shoved in our faces.

Now I think we're getting somewhere. You had an experience with a "bad salesman" so to speak. It has tarnished your perception, it would seem.

[Kal26]

I think you missed a bit. I'm not going to answer your questions on the board as we've gotten way off topic with it today. If you want me to pm you my responses, I will, but I'm gettin' while the gittin' is good! :D Thanks for your kindness too, you seem like a very nice person.

I'm off work, so talk to you all tomorrow!

[MBrittan]

My thing is that I don't think being decent, or moral, has anything to do with religion.

I couldn't possibly disagree more. Yes, I know there are exceptions to every rule (like you in this case), but I think the further we move AWAY from religion, the more cold and distant we become as a society. It's becoming quite obvious that the powers that be are doing everything they can to supress any public displays of religion (on public buildings, in schools, etc.). It's as if they are trying to "erase" God. I find the notion offensive. I feel like I'm some sort of "cult" member just because I'm Christian. Forced to seclude myself in a church if I even want to mention the name "Jesus". Meanwhile, I watch the way people treat each other it's getting worse and worse. You can't turn on a television set without listening to someone do a character assassination on someone else. People try to kill each other in traffic. The world has become very cut-throat. And then I look back to a time like the 1950s and it wasn't like that then. People were actually decent to each other. It was actually OK for religion to be a part of people's lives IN PUBLIC. The 50s may seem "wholesome" by our standards. But I think those people had the right idea with regard to how they behaved.

----- Added 4 Minutes later -----


Religion and morality arent synonyms, they simply go hand to hand. Simply watch what each school of thought is teaching - one tries to make society better, to love each other, another teaches to take from life everything you can, to be the egoist because "the fittiest survives". Important note, currently society is increasingly atheistical, and even those who says they are religious - they usualy just follow the family tradition and dont really follow religious rules. How is the morality in our cultures is looking? Its dissapearing, fast.

There are definately some atheists who are more moral than some guys who claim to be religious (while they actualy arent), but you cant judge all by few. Majority of religious (not by name but in actions) will strive to improve themselves and to make world the better place, while majority of atheists will strive for their own enjoyiment mainly, even at the expense of others, thats exactly whats happening in our increasingly atheistical societies.

Great post!
-M-

----- Added 10 Minutes later -----


By reading this, I can see that you have no Idea what it means to be atheist. An atheist simply doesn't believe in any religion. They believe that god, or the devil, in any form, don't exist. Not that you should be all about yourself. They believe that if you are a good person, you should continue to be out of a love for your fellow man, not because you'll go to hell if you don't.

As you said, there are good and bad in both schools of thought, but you should know those schools of thought before you say that one specifically teaches something that it doesn't.

Also, if your going to say things like "most do", or "the majority" this or that, you should show some concrete evidence.

What kind of "concrete" evidence would you like him to produce? Do they do studies on Atheism? I think all we can go by is our own anecdotal experience. If this particular poster has had (mostly) experienced self-centered individuals who don't believe in God, then that probably left an impression on him. That kind of impression isn't formed after one experience. It's usually formed after SEVERAL.
-M-

----- Added 10 Minutes later -----


I think you missed a bit.

I didn't miss it. I just disagree with it.

----- Added 12 Minutes later -----


There are definately some atheists who are more moral than some guys who claim to be religious

I don't think a few exceptions necessarily prove or disprove anything.
-M-

----- Added 16 Minutes later -----


The truth is, you have no idea what the majority of Atheists believe.

But it ISN'T impossible to observe how they live their lives (personal interactions, etc.). EVERYBODY forms opinions about other people. It's human nature. An employer can't know everything about the job candidate he's interviewing, but he can certainly learn enough to form an "impression" (whether good or bad). Interactions with people of other religions is no different.

----- Added 18 Minutes later -----


Here is a quote from atheists.org

"He seeks to know himself and his fellow man rather than to know a god. An Atheist believes that a hospital should be built instead of a church. An Atheist believes that a deed must be done instead of a prayer said. An Atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death. He wants disease conquered, poverty vanquished, war eliminated. He wants man to understand and love man."

I can't see how any of that sounds like anything you said about Atheism.

Whoa, I think you need to make a distinction here. People who follow the "teachings" you've cited above and people who simply don't believe in God (but subscribe to no particular philosophy). The two are NOT mutually exclusive.
-M-

----- Added 23 Minutes later -----


I'm not trying to bash Atheists or anything but I believe in God. When you said that they tempted to do something immoral and they know they won't get caught by the law, they do it. Well the law may not see them but God sees them. Then the Atheist can say "Well, I don't believe in God." It doesn't matter. Lay down on a highway and say "I don't believe in trucks" and see what happens.

Post of the year.
-M-

----- Added 27 Minutes later -----


I'd like to share a theory with you that I and many other creationists share about where the Coca Cola can may have come from. Billions of years ago, there was a massive explosion in outer space, no one knows what caused it just that it kinda happened, it was a Big Bang. Out of this Big Bang, issued a rock and on top of the rock was found this brown, sweet, bubbly substance. Over millions of years, aluminum crept up the side and formed itself into a can, then a lid, then a tab. Then millions of years later red and white paint fell from the sky, landed on the can, and formed the words "Coca Cola Classic 12 Ounces Original Formula"

You say "What are you doing? You are insulting my intellect."

So I am, we know that if the Coca Cola Can was made, their must be a maker, if it was designed their must be a designer. To believe that this happened by sheer chance is to move into an intellectual free zone.

WOW!
:)
-M-

----- Added 29 Minutes later -----


So who designed God? A Super-God? And who designed that Super-God? A Super-Super-God? And who designed... You get the point (or probably not)... :o

"Who designed God"? No, I think you're the one who's missing the point...
-M-

[ginnyfan]

Morality & religion definitely go together. Most laws and what is considered right/wrong in socities are derived from religions and things like the 10 Commandments.

I think they suggest that the characters do practice the religions they follow (like how Clark knew about Saint Christopher being the Patron Saint of Travelers in Slumber & Martha coming down on Clark after getting married to Alicia in Unsafe) but don't go into the details. I like that approach and how they at least acknowledge its existence.

Great post. I agree. I like the acknowledgment and that they give room for possibility of religion and faith without going into so much detail that people of other faiths or no faith would be turned off by it. There's room to fill in the blanks however you like.

Of all the characters the Kent's seem the most Christian and/or religious.

As for Oliver Queen, he could have a personal faith but I don't see him belonging to any organized religion. He's impatient with the justice system and acts outside of the law against Lex and other rich evil people. I think he'd be the same way if he does have a personal faith toward organized religion. He'd be impatient with the hypocrisies/bureaucracies and would choose to work outside of the church living his beliefs and getting his hands dirty.

[zodiscoming12345]

Okay, I'm going to say one more thing on this topic and then leave it at that because I don't want to get banned or anything.

TOMophilus asked me who created God? I'm going to answer it and then quit there. If you want anymore information, please send me a PM.

God didn't need a creator. We live in the realm of time, God lives in the realm of eternity. In the realm of time, everything must have a beginning and end. In the realm of eternity, it is different. You have neither beginning, nor end. You are eternal. I know that doesn't make sense but that is because we live in the realm of time and we think that everything must have a beginning and end. When we die, we pass from the realm of time to the realm of eternity. That is where God judges us.

If you have anymore questions, PM me.

[AdamTyree]

I'm not trying to bash Atheists or anything but I believe in God. When you said that they tempted to do something immoral and they know they won't get caught by the law, they do it. Well the law may not see them but God sees them. Then the Atheist can say "Well, I don't believe in God." It doesn't matter. Lay down on a highway and say "I don't believe in trucks" and see what happens.

ive heard almost every metaphor you have and i have to say, this is my ALL TIME FAVORITE

[TOMophilus]

I couldn't possibly disagree more. Yes, I know there are exceptions to every rule (like you in this case), but I think the further we move AWAY from religion, the more cold and distant we become as a society.
Well, I am afraid that all this is just a popular myth. Scientific fact is that in terms of societal health highly religious societies are worse off than lesser religious ones. Here is a quote from a recent sociological study (http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html), published in the Journal of Religion and Society:


In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy, and abortion in the prosperous democracies (Figures 1-9). The most theistic prosperous democracy, the U.S., is exceptional, but not in the manner Franklin predicted. The United States is almost always the most dysfunctional of the developed democracies, sometimes spectacularly so, and almost always scores poorly.

Sadly, this is BECAUSE OF too much religion...

[stenochick]

I couldn't possibly disagree more. Yes, I know there are exceptions to every rule (like you in this case), but I think the further we move AWAY from religion, the more cold and distant we become as a society. It's becoming quite obvious that the powers that be are doing everything they can to supress any public displays of religion (on public buildings, in schools, etc.). It's as if they are trying to "erase" God. I find the notion offensive. I feel like I'm some sort of "cult" member just because I'm Christian. Forced to seclude myself in a church if I even want to mention the name "Jesus". Meanwhile, I watch the way people treat each other it's getting worse and worse. You can't turn on a television set without listening to someone do a character assassination on someone else. People try to kill each other in traffic. The world has become very cut-throat. And then I look back to a time like the 1950s and it wasn't like that then. People were actually decent to each other. It was actually OK for religion to be a part of people's lives IN PUBLIC. The 50s may seem "wholesome" by our standards. But I think those people had the right idea with regard to how they behaved.

I agree with your sentiments, but I don't think "religion" is the be all and end all to the lack of love and spirituality in our society. It may just be semantics, though, which is why I don't want to argue and debate over it. If you equate religion with Love with a capital L, agape love, then I agree with you.

I also try to avoid the temptation to romanticize the past. Yes, the 50's seemed more wholesome and decent than today. But maybe it was because society was taking all their pent-up anger out on African-Americans (racism and segregation), immigrants (prejudice), women (battered wives, sexism), and children (child abuse).

Society is better than it was in the 50's. The big breakdown has been in the family, not religion. If I could be atheist and become a Christian in my twenties, then anyone who is genuinely searching can find God. Like the Buddha said, "When the student is ready, the teacher appears."

----- Added 32 Minutes later -----

Oh, yes, our current topic:

Is Green Arrow religious?

If Green Arrow's actions were motivated by his faith, then I would say he practiced Judaism, Islam, Catholicism, or the branch of Christianity that preaches the "Social Gospel." All those faiths believe in doing God's will through social activism.

But, he could just as easily practice no religion and simply be a superhero/activist.

[Ilovebeinglost]

If we go by the fact that the two bad guys on Smallville are quoting the bible than please save me from religion ;)



One can have morals and be spiritual without being religious

[Kal26]

I didn't miss it. I just disagree with it.


What your missing is that this discussion is highly against the rules of this site. I only went as far with it as I did, because I thought that the creator of the thread had express permission (like we are supposed to get when starting threads about religion) from a mod. It turns out, that permission wasn't given. So, I'm no longer partaking in this conversation on the open boards.

That was all stated in previous posts that I assumed you missed. To sum up, I respectfully disagree with everything you said, and want nothing to do with any organized religion because I personally don't believe a god, or devil exists. That's a decision I came to through experience, and study.

When I say concrete evidence, I'm also referring to the rules of the site. Your not supposed to make general classifications like "most do this, or the majority are that way" without providing statistical evidence, and yes, to answer your question, there are sociological studies on religion. A few experiences does not make it ok to generalize about a whole population. That's called prejudice. Also, where you said that I needed to make a distinction between Atheists who follow the quote I provided, and those who follow nothing, so does your buddy who was saying that all Atheists were simply for themselves, or egoists, which in my experience has nothing to do with being an Atheist. Just because a person doesn't believe in your god, or any god, doesn't mean they think that only the strong should survive. It just means they aren't going to worship something they don't think exists. That has nothing to do with morality.

Imagine your reaction if I said any number of things that have been done by a few members of your religion, and acted like the majority followed that path. Now imagine that I did that with no evidence other than personal experiences with a few people.

It's not an I'm right, and your wrong debate, or the other way around. We all have to learn to except that other people see things differently, and have good reasons for it.

As I said before, if you wish to discuss this through PM, I'd be happy to, but I'm certainly not risking getting banned from my favorite site to carry on this conversation.

We are not to discuss religion on this site for any reason, without the permission of a mod, and we all now know it.

[Pedroff]

Hey as far as it goes love is better than hate and you can both be religious and scientific to love so that is all that matters, stay positive everyone. :):D:cool:

[Kal26]

That's a good point. I think love is the only way to go! :)

[Lex Dance]

Isn't it funny how any thread with the word religion in the title never stays on topic? :)
I've read through pretty much every post on this thread and one question which I don't think has been posed yet is what does the arrival of an alien lifeform do to a person's faith? I'm sure it's not a question that will ever find its way into a Smallville storyline - in fact I don't know how many times it's even cropped up in the comics - but I think it's worth considering, especially as the Kryptonian race is considered more advanced than the human. I dare say it's one that Lex and Lionel will have thought about! Their biblical quotations are just that - quotations. I don't think for one second that they live by any religious code, or even believe that they do. Whereas Jonathon and Martha, with those suggestions of a church-going lifestyle (and don't forget, church-going doesn't necessarily mean concrete faith), might struggle with the elements of Christian doctrine that place humans at the centre of their own universe.

[TOMophilus]

I've read through pretty much every post on this thread and one question which I don't think has been posed yet is what does the arrival of an alien lifeform do to a person's faith?
I´ve read that some people seriously believe that Jesus has appeared and died on all possible alien planets to save whatever life form exists there. Boy, what a job, just because your dad has this son killing fetish for salvation... :lol:

[Atomic girl]

Well, I am afraid that all this is just a popular myth. Scientific fact is that in terms of societal health highly religious societies are worse off than lesser religious ones. Here is a quote from a recent sociological study (http://http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html), published in the Journal of Religion and Society:

Quote:
In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy, and abortion in the prosperous democracies (Figures 1-9). The most theistic prosperous democracy, the U.S., is exceptional, but not in the manner Franklin predicted. The United States is almost always the most dysfunctional of the developed democracies, sometimes spectacularly so, and almost always scores poorly.

Sadly, this is BECAUSE OF too much religion...

I just had to comment on this. If this report is true (I believe you are quoting correctly, but the conclusions are rather interesting), this would be the first report I have ever seen with this conclusion.

Side note: I could not get the link to work

[MBrittan]

Well, I am afraid that all this is just a popular myth. Scientific fact is that in terms of societal health highly religious societies are worse off than lesser religious ones. Here is a quote from a recent sociological study (http://http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html), published in the Journal of Religion and Society:



Sadly, this is BECAUSE OF too much religion...

?!!?
"Societal Health"?!!? What criteria are you using? What societies are involved? You just pick up one magazine that agrees with your opinion and conversation over, eh? It's not a myth. Santa Claus is a myth. What I've described is what I see with my own two eyes. I've seen evidence of Christ slowly erased as I've moved from childhood into adulthood. In schools, I've seen the word "Christmas" replaced with "Holiday". In public, I've seen manger scenes taken down in front of municipal buildings. I've listened to the debate about not saying the Pledge of Allegience in school because it refers to God. This was NEVER a problem before. Now all of the sudden, it is. Look back at the 1950s. Children actually referred to their elders as "sir" or "maam". If a kid did that now, people would look at him like he was from another planet. Instead, you have out of control children on talk shows like Jerry Springer talking to their own parents like drunken sailors. It's APPAULING. Is "baby mama drama" a sign of "societal health"? Are people yacking on cell phones in traffic (and nearly killing their fellow motorists) a sign of "societal health"? Are threesomes and drunk dialing signs of "societal health"? Our value system as a society is deteriorating RAPIDLY. And I don't think it's a coincidence it's happening at THE EXACT SAME TIME that people are desperately trying to erase God from the public's attention. Am I drawing conclusions? Hell yes I am. I trust what I see with my own two eyes FAR MORE than any magazine you want to slap down on table in front of me.
-M-

----- Added 3 Minutes later -----


I agree with your sentiments, but I don't think "religion" is the be all and end all to the lack of love and spirituality in our society.

OK then, just try taking it away. Completely. And then get back to me on the state of your "society".

----- Added 5 Minutes later -----



I also try to avoid the temptation to romanticize the past.


Not romanticizing. Just comparing. You can't truly appreciate just how low our society has sunk unless you have a basis for comparison. That's why I brought up the 50s.

----- Added 12 Minutes later -----


Society is better than it was in the 50's.

?!!? Hmmm, let's see...
Are people more hostile (and aggressive) towards their fellow man than they were in the 1950s? check
Have people become more apathetic about the problems of their fellow man? check
Has society become more "cut throat" and "survival of the fittest" with regard to things like jobs? check
Are people more reckless in traffic? check
Are people more cavalier about their sex life? check
Are kids less respectful of their parents (and other authority figures)? check
Are drug use and alcohol consumption at an all-time high? check
Are people MORE likely to communicate with their friends using an electronic device (rather than in person)? check
Does the average person have more debt than he/she can every expect to pay off in his lifetime? check
I could go on, but I suspect I've made my point. Society is better now than the 50s? I just don't see it.

----- Added 14 Minutes later -----


The big breakdown has been in the family, not religion.

The LACK of religion is what has contributed to the "big breakdown". In many families, religion is the glue that holds the family together.
-M-

----- Added 19 Minutes later -----


Your not supposed to make general classifications like "most do this, or the majority are that way" without providing statistical evidence, and yes, to answer your question, there are sociological studies on religion. A few experiences does not make it ok to generalize about a whole population. That's called prejudice.

Studies by whom? Organizations with agendas? Those things are NEVER bias-free. They start with a premise which they want to prove true (or false) and then find a way to make the numbers say what they want them to. If the numbers don't support their side, you never see the study. What I DO trust is what I see with my own two eyes. They've never lied to me or tried to mislead me.

----- Added 20 Minutes later -----



Imagine your reaction if I said any number of things that have been done by a few members of your religion, and acted like the majority followed that path. Now imagine that I did that with no evidence other than personal experiences with a few people.

Ever heard the term "Jesus freaks"?

----- Added 22 Minutes later -----


I'm certainly not risking getting banned from my favorite site to carry on this conversation.

We are not to discuss religion on this site for any reason, without the permission of a mod, and we all now know it.

And yet you continue to do it. The "damage" is already done.
-M-

----- Added 28 Minutes later -----


what does the arrival of an alien lifeform do to a person's faith?

I don't think the existence of "aliens" necessarily proves or disproves anything. If I had to speculate, I'd say that if there WERE "aliens", they'd be on planets way too far for us to get to in a single lifetime. If God has a plan, I would guess it would be to keep His children apart until He was ready for them to come together. If He wanted us to meet, He'd have put us closer together.
-M-

----- Added 28 Minutes later -----


I´ve read that some people seriously believe that Jesus has appeared and died on all possible alien planets to save whatever life form exists there. Boy, what a job, just because your dad has this son killing fetish for salvation... :lol:

I'm not even going to dignify this with an answer.
-M-

[Harrison]

Well, I know Freud's work in psychology, but not his opinions of religion. All I'm pointing out is that as with religion, there are going to be good influences, and bad influences. As you said to me about religion, you can't judge them all based on a few.
In religion there are saints who had massive positive influence on all cultures, regardless if you believe in God or not. Now who are the most prominent atheist leaders who positively influenced all cultures? You will be hard pressed to find few if any, atheism and its derivative materialism isnt about making the world a better place, its emphasis is on making the world the better place for them, enjoyments, even at the expense of others. Its called survival of the fitest and its one of their basic doctrines.



That's the point I've been trying to make. You can say your religious, and still be immoral. You can say your religious, and be moral.

In the same respect, you can say your Atheist, and be immoral, or you can say your Atheist, and be moral.

In the end, it's based on the actions of the individual. That we agree on.
Its definately based on peoples actions, as we agree, just there is massive difference is in the viewpoint. By default religious person will not be inclined to do anything immoral and actualy will try to do aomething good, and if he has nasty habbits, he will try to rectify himself according to the ideals. Atheists usualy pick any ideals which they like, some pick something nice, some pick something nasty - most dont have any other guidance than their own instincts and desires.



I don't really disagree with this. I just don't think I should have to worship a god that I don't believe exists in order to follow a sort of universal moral code. Not that their is anything wrong with believing a god exists, trust me, I'd feel much better if I knew he/she did, but I simply don't feel he/she does. I do want to perfect myself to be the best person I can be, but I have no higher power that I'm modeling myself after.
Thats the thing, without religion there isnt really universal moral code left, since you defy God, you naturaly defy His rules and code. Its like defying government, you will naturaly will try to defy its laws too, like in any havoc situation when there is no government, how many people still follows the law? Some do, many dont. The same with the religion, as soon as society becomes godless, people lose morality fast, it can be seen in Western countries as we speak, its a fact.

----- Added 20 Minutes later -----


What I was saying is that god tells people in some religions that this is right, and that is wrong. They then have the option to do right, and get into heaven (a reward), or do wrong, and go to hell.

I don't work on the reward, or punishment philosophy. I do right because I want to do right, not because I want to get into heaven. I don't do wrong, because I don't want to harm others in any way, not because I have a fear of going to hell.
Religion isnt about reward or punishment, its about the love and understanding God. Simply every action have the consequence, and fear is meant just for the criminal-minded persons, like "dont kill or you will go to jail/hell".


Are you getting at creation?

I believe in the big bang.

I also have held evidence of evolution in my hands. My wife studies archaeology.

Evolution is an interesting theory, you should check this out:
http://www.discovery.org/articleFiles/PDFs/survivalOfTheFakest.pdf

About archeology, your wife could be interested in this:
http://www.amazon.com/Forbidden-Archeology-Unabridged-Michael-Cremo/dp/0892132949

[TOMophilus]

I just had to comment on this. If this report is true (I believe you are quoting correctly, but the conclusions are rather interesting), this would be the first report I have ever seen with this conclusion.

Side note: I could not get the link to work
Sorry, there were two http´s in it. I´ve repaired it. And here it is again:

Journal of Religion and Society (http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html)


I trust what I see with my own two eyes FAR MORE than any magazine you want to slap down on table in front of me.
Well, then you should not trust in God because you probably haven´t seen him with your own eyes either. You only believe this because someone has slapped a big, allegedly holy book on the table in front of you, which says that God exists. :D

[stenochick]

I was raised Catholic, stopped believing in God when I was around 10 years old. Nothing bad happened to me, I loved catechism and church. I just reasoned my way out of the whole thing. Then by my twenties, I felt empty and was on a spiritual quest. I was proselytized to and became a Christian. I definitely wasn't lonely anymore because that church turned out to be a cult and I was kept very busy.

Well, long story short, I am back on the spiritual journey again. I didn't throw out the baby with the bath water though. I still believe in God and live by the teachings of Jesus.

That experience has given me so much. Even though it was a living nightmare at times, I would not trade that time in my life for the world because of the exponential spiritual growth I have gained since.

God is so much bigger than the Bible or religion. God is beyond words or anything else that is of the ego. So to sit here and try to debate and argue and explain mental positions with the written word is futile if the goal is to win the argument and be right.

I think what has been the biggest area of spiritual growth for me is that I no longer feel the need to be right and I no longer dismiss other people. I believe we are all connected and it is more important to listen in love than to be right. I will state my opinion, but if you don't agree I won't keep going back and forth.

One opinion I have is that I believe our leaders should expect more of us, the citizens. It seems like all our government is asking of us during the wars in Iraq and Afganistan is to go shopping. That sounds more like materialism than religion. Maybe that was the difference in the 50's.

If the Christian right left the abortion and gay marriage issues alone and went after the greedy and those who abuse, neglect, and exploit children, I think we would really see the power of God/religion in our society.

[Kal26]

Studies by whom? Organizations with agendas? Those things are NEVER bias-free. They start with a premise which they want to prove true (or false) and then find a way to make the numbers say what they want them to. If the numbers don't support their side, you never see the study. What I DO trust is what I see with my own two eyes. They've never lied to me or tried to mislead me.


So, it's ok for me to say "all Christians teach __________________" because that's what I've seen with my own eyes? I think not. Not only because it's stereotyping (as has been done by Harrison, and backed up by you), but because it's factually skewed based on my own personal bias, as what you all are saying is skewed based on yours. Also, because it's against the rules of this site.

I'm a student of Psychology. I look for the truth, as the Sociologists have done in the studies I was referring to. I'm not talking about an organization with an agenda. I'm talking about a group of scholars who study thousands of people, and come together to make an educated decision. You however, are looking at a few individuals with your own biased eyes, and seeing what you want. The difference is clear to me. Besides, if Harrison wanted to make that argument, he/she could have quoted a study done by a group that was biased in his/or her favor. I don't care about the bias of the study as much as I care about pulling ideas out of thin air based on your personal beliefs, and experiences when it breaks the rules of the site.

The point I'm making is that if you don't want me to generalize about your religion based on my personal experiences, and I have had plenty, then you can't generalize about my beliefs, especially when it's breaking the rules of the site we're on. Where's that double standard now? And where are those highly evolved morals? Your the one that can't keep from breaking rules, it seems.




Ever heard the term "Jesus freaks"?


I have, and I wasn't the one who started making generalized cuts against what you believe. You all started that when you defended a horrid misrepresentation of what I believe. I'd like to thank you for confirming all of my feelings on the subject. You all have made my point for me, and have given me yet another reason to feel justified in the path I have chosen.



Harrison

I'm not going to quote a single thing you said, but will say this. This wasn't supposed to be a debate about who's spiritual choice was right. You made it that way when you posted untrue statements about my beliefs. I could have sat here and listed heinous acts done in the name of your religion all day long.......all day long, but I didn't because you shouldn't have to defend your faith based on the acts of individuals, as I should not have to defend my lack of faith. You don't want people to generalize about your religion based on some bad apples, then stop doing it to others. Any more nonfactual rantings you go on about my beliefs will only add to the bad taste left in my mouth after this conversation.

Thank you for the eye opening experience.

Kal26 out :p

[jimmyolsenblues]

mod reminder of the rules

4) Since there are members on this board from a wide range of backgrounds, all posters must refrain from making comments that could ordinarily be construed as sexist, homophobic, ethnocentric, racist, or significantly demeaning to any individual or group on the basis of disability, age, political inclinations or religion. What is construed as demeaning or hateful is up to the ultimate discretion of the moderators.

5) Threads about politics are STRICTLY NOT ALLOWED. Threads regarding religion, sexual orientation, gender issues, ethnic/racial issues are allowed on a limited basis. Please get the approval from at least one of the moderators before opening such a thread, and post the moderator’s approval in the thread.

[Randy G.]

[Mod Note:] Before We close this thread, let me just say that it's a shame that people always seem to digress to disrespecting other's religious beliefs (or lack thereof).

I've always firmly believed that trying to convert, convince, draft, or witness (as some call it), is just a polite term for telling others they are wrong, and proceding to shove your own beliefs down their throat. Some people just don't get it. Basically, if it ain't broke, don't try to fix it.

That being said, please re-familiarize yourselves with ALL of the KryptonSite Rules (http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/announcement.php?f=30&a=13), particularly the ones that jimmyolsenblues mentioned above, regarding discussion of religon and making demeaning comments.

(*sigh) Thread closed. :\