Why was angel canceled?

[cwoodbears86]

i just got done watching the dvd sets of angel and was just wondering if anyone knew why it got canceled?

[Vergon6]

I think the WB didn't like the ratings for the show.

[Fat Elvis 007]

Here's what I heard at the time.

The WB was considering a revamp (pun not intended) of the vampire soap opera "Dark Shadows." Goren Vijnik was going to star. Apparently, the network didn't want two vampire shows on at one time, and decided to drop "Angel," despite the fact that it was the ONLY show on the network that had actually increased viewership that year and was one of their highest rated shows, in favor of a pilot that they had no idea would succeed. Because there is a such thing as karma, "Dark Shadows" never made it to air, so they essentially screwed themselves over by cancelling "Angel." That said, I'm glad it went out when it did. I thought it was time. The fifth season had somewhat of a drop in quality, IMO, and I would have hated to see the show get as bad as Buffy Season 6 and 7.

[cwoodbears86]

Here's what I heard at the time.

The WB was considering a revamp (pun not intended) of the vampire soap opera "Dark Shadows." Goren Vijnik was going to star. Apparently, the network didn't want two vampire shows on at one time, and decided to drop "Angel," despite the fact that it was the ONLY show on the network that had actually increased viewership that year and was one of their highest rated shows, in favor of a pilot that they had no idea would succeed. Because there is a such thing as karma, "Dark Shadows" never made it to air, so they essentially screwed themselves over by cancelling "Angel." That said, I'm glad it went out when it did. I thought it was time. The fifth season had somewhat of a drop in quality, IMO, and I would have hated to see the show get as bad as Buffy Season 6 and 7.

yeah i agree with you on season 5. the only thing i loved in that season was the spike and angel thing. Thats why i wish it kept going to build on those two. If it did keep going i think it should have went back to the motel and bring back angel investigations. i didnt like that wesley died as well.

[SuperShazam!!]

I didnt like what became of Fred, and I missed Cordy

[Fat Elvis 007]

I liked Illyria, but I don't think it was worth it to kill off Fred, especially so soon after killing off Cordy! I always found it funny that for a show spawned from a profoundly feminist show could be so...not misogynistic...but certainly not woman-friendly.

[dunlopc]

I loved season 5 the dialogue between Spike and Angel was fantastic I did read somewhere but can't remember where. That WB asked the cast to comeback 3 months after they cancelled the show. And That DB was not a happy man which I wouldn't blame for especially since they all had new jobs.

[Superboy-Prime]

Here's what I heard at the time.
That said, I'm glad it went out when it did. I thought it was time. The fifth season had somewhat of a drop in quality

Thats cause the same douche that cancelled Angel, i believe his name was Jordan Levin (who also let garbage like charmed continue for 8 seasons) made them cut their budget for season 5. Hell they could hardly afford to dust any vamps that season. Also forced them to do a more standalone episode format. Hell season 5 barely even seems like the same show as 1-4. When i heard Spike was coming I hoped spike was coming to an angel that was more like season 1-4. Season 5 was good in its own right but it was more....cartoony than the other seasons.

[cayayofm]

Actually my favorite season of Angel is season 5. I think the best are 4 and 5, but the show really achieved greatness in season 5. It was their best creative year and the season have some of the best episodes of the series: Just Rewards, Linage, You Are Welcome, Smile Time, Shells and the best of the series in my opinion A Hole In The World.

Why The WB canceled the series is still a mystery, but is the third stupidest thing they ever did after letting Buffy go in the second place and merging with UPN in first.

[Superboy-Prime]

Actually my favorite season of Angel is season 5. I think the best are 4 and 5, but the show really achieved greatness in season 5. It was their best creative year and the season have some of the best episodes of the series: Just Rewards, Linage, You Are Welcome, Smile Time, Shells and the best of the series in my opinion A Hole In The World.

Why The WB canceled the series is still a mystery, but is the third stupidest thing they ever did after letting Buffy go in the second place and merging with UPN in first.

i prefer 2 and 4(before Jasmin) Have you ever seen a show where the main character fires the rest of the characters while on an obsessive mission of vengeance. Where he and the other characters do their own thing while barely interacting.

[Fat Elvis 007]

The second half of Season 5 was very, very good. However, I too didn't like the standalone format in the first half. Cordy's absence, Eve, the lack of action and a lot of standing around talking in a brightly lit office also contributed to the change in tone in the first half. I also wasn't a big fan of Spike becoming a regular. There were a few good moments between he and Angel, but overall he felt very extrenuous, yet at the same time it sort of became "The Angel and Spike Show." I hated when Buffy became "The Buffy and Spike Show," so of course they had to do the same with Angel. Most of the time I just wanted to shut him up. I don't dislike Spike, but I feel in the later Buffyverse seasons he was just way overused. Spike should be a recurring character and he should be EVIL, dang it! I like character progression and all, but I just never bought Spike's. It always felt to me like his expanding role in the verse was based more on fan/crew popularity than any real character growth. When you're at the point where Spike is the world's ultimate savior in "Chosen" rather than, you know, the star of the show and a feminist icon, than that's when you know the writer's are really going out of their way to inflate that character's importance beyond reason. Of course, I'm going way off-topic, so I should stop now.

[cayayofm]

lol.... Fat Elvis 007, I can see that you dislike Spike increasing importance on Buffy, but yeah, let's not get into that here. Spike biggest fans were the writers them selfs.

Superboy-Prime, While "Reunion" was gripping and the final minutes shocking, the rest of the season does not do much for me. The episodes revolving around the main arc are good, "Dear Boy", "Darla", "The Trial", and a few other, but my problem with the season is exactly that, it has a few good episodes; the rest does not do much for me. Also the main story came to an abrupt ending in episodes 16, leaving the rest in the air.

I really like season 4, it started very tight, but the season lost its steam after episode 15 when Angel is re-en souled, however I like "Players". But the Jasmine thing turn me off and it just contradicts what was going on on the first half.

If I have to pick an overall best season for me it will be season 4, but season 5 have better individual episodes.

[ClarkyBoy14]

I know S4 had terrible ratings, but S5 had slight improvement (thanks in part to SV being its leadin).

Don't know how true this is, but I've read elsewhere that the WB leaders were getting fedup w/ JW always asking them if they were going to cancel AtS or not, so they just ended it. Again, I don't know how true that is, and it would be a really lame reason to cancel it.

[Doomsdayiscoming666]

They Need To Do An Angel Movie!!!!!!

[Vergon6]

They Need To Do An Angel Movie!!!!!!
I think David Boreanaz once said he would ever play Angel again was if it was a feature film. There was some TV movie rumors along time ago after the show ended, but I think they would have featured more on Spike, because David Boreanaz was not into doing made-for-TV movies for the series.

[drew-crypto84]

Angel was axed for various reasons. The ratings for the 5th season only increased because Spike was brought into it, the 4th season ratings were high for the first half only cause of the return of Angelus, Faith and Willow but after that the ratings went down again. The show went out exactly how Buffy almost went out, during Buffy's 5th season contract negotiations between Fox and the WB started to heat up. Basically the WB wanted a lot more money to air Buffy even though all they were doing was airing the show while Fox was producing it. Of course when this happened with Buffy and when it was thought the 5th season will be it's last UPN came in and made the deal with Fox to air two more seasons of Buffy.
Most likely what almost happened to Buffy happened with Angel mostly cause the WB wanted more money and that Fox wasn't willing to pay the amount of money they wanted and since by then alot of the WBs income was coming from Smallville they thought axing Angel wouldn't hurt the network. When Angel got axed fans were hoping that UPN will also bring Angel to the network but of course that didn't happen, which is strange considering that UPN wanted to bring Angel to their network when they also had Buffy. I'm not sure if it's true or not but UPN wanted Angel for two seasons with an option to have the maximum of two more season afterwards meaning it would have had 6 seasons which is what Joss Whedon wanted.

[Vergon6]

Angel was axed for various reasons. The ratings for the 5th season only increased because Spike was brought into it, the 4th season ratings were high for the first half only cause of the return of Angelus, Faith and Willow but after that the ratings went down again. The show went out exactly how Buffy almost went out, during Buffy's 5th season contract negotiations between Fox and the WB started to heat up. Basically the WB wanted a lot more money to air Buffy even though all they were doing was airing the show while Fox was producing it. Of course when this happened with Buffy and when it was thought the 5th season will be it's last UPN came in and made the deal with Fox to air two more seasons of Buffy.
Most likely what almost happened to Buffy happened with Angel mostly cause the WB wanted more money and that Fox wasn't willing to pay the amount of money they wanted and since by then alot of the WBs income was coming from Smallville they thought axing Angel wouldn't hurt the network. When Angel got axed fans were hoping that UPN will also bring Angel to the network but of course that didn't happen, which is strange considering that UPN wanted to bring Angel to their network when they also had Buffy. I'm not sure if it's true or not but UPN wanted Angel for two seasons with an option to have the maximum of two more season afterwards meaning it would have had 6 seasons which is what Joss Whedon wanted.
I seem to recall UPN saying that they weren't going to pick up Angel because of their experience with Buffy. I guess because an already cash-strapped network was involved in a bidding war and only got two seasons of Buffy out of it. They said it wouldn't be worth it to do the same with Angel or something like that.

[drew-crypto84]

I seem to recall UPN saying that they weren't going to pick up Angel because of their experience with Buffy. I guess because an already cash-strapped network was involved in a bidding war and only got two seasons of Buffy out of it. They said it wouldn't be worth it to do the same with Angel or something like that.

Maybe we will never know at the end of the day. One of the main reasons why Buffy had low ratings for it's last two seasons was cause it was on exactly the same time as Smallville (even though Buffy and Angel has a massive following it's not on the scale of anything to do with Superman which of course has been around for decades in many different forms) and it looked like the WB wanted to destroy the very show that put them on the map which is why Buffy was hardly mentioned during Angel's 3rd season, sure they weren't a major network but it was Buffy that put them on the map in the first place.

[Fat Elvis 007]

Maybe we will never know at the end of the day. One of the main reasons why Buffy had low ratings for it's last two seasons was cause it was on exactly the same time as Smallville (even though Buffy and Angel has a massive following it's not on the scale of anything to do with Superman which of course has been around for decades in many different forms) and it looked like the WB wanted to destroy the very show that put them on the map which is why Buffy was hardly mentioned during Angel's 3rd season, sure they weren't a major network but it was Buffy that put them on the map in the first place.

So did the last two seasons of Buffy have low ratings even for UPN? I would think it would have been the highest rated show on the network at the time.

[drew-crypto84]

So did the last two seasons of Buffy have low ratings even for UPN? I would think it would have been the highest rated show on the network at the time.

It was one of the highest rated shows on UPN at that time. Even on it's run on the WB Buffy did draw good ratings along with Angel, Buffy was up against competition at that time and when it went on UPN the ratings were more or less the same but it was considered low ratings cause the fact that Smallville was on at exactly the same time which drew in more viewers cause Superman has a bigger fan base. I guess UPN decide to keep Buffy on it's old day and time slot not to confuse the fans which is smart at times considering that the WB decided to move Angel to Wednesdays which is a tough night I imagine. A part of me does think that ratings are made up anyway since it's the networks and channels that have the real power to axe shows even if they are popular and make up lame excuses for it cause how do they know exactly how many people watch a show, the best way to see how popular it is is by looking at merchandise sales, a number of websites and so on.

[cayayofm]

Actually, Buffy was on Tuesdays at 8:00pm while Smallville was at 9:00pm. They never aired simultaneously. Buffy premiered to almost 7.8 million viewers in UPN, by the end, "Chosen" scored around 4.5 million. Buffy was successful in UPN, but the show was not able to do for the network what it did for The WB when it premiered. Getting a show on it's sixth season won't do much for your network and I think that is the mistake that did not wanted to make with Angel.

[badwolf]

I seem to recall UPN saying that they weren't going to pick up Angel because of their experience with Buffy. I guess because an already cash-strapped network was involved in a bidding war and only got two seasons of Buffy out of it. They said it wouldn't be worth it to do the same with Angel or something like that.

True, but UPN knew that they were only going to get two seasons out of Buffy when they started bidding for it.

[knightofkrypton]

Honestly, I think we could've gotten a great movie or so out of Angel, possibly an Angel Buffy collaboration of movies.

sadly, Angel was gone in 04 and in 2005, I think Joss used up his chance to possibly give us an Angel/Buffy movie by focusing on Serenity.

As much as I LOVE Firefly and the movie....it wound up being a bust. I think an Angel movie might have stood a better chance for a sequel...

Now, though, it's been too long. "everyone" has moved on....At least DB has.....exactly what has SMG been doing aside from cheesy straight to DVD movies? Oh yeah, she did "the Grudge" movies.....eh.... I know CC did Playboy in '04.....lol and that was about the last time I saw her...heh.

[nicmar]

Joss had three spinnoffs planned well four if you count the Angel and later Spike tv movies. First was a Faith spinnoff which had her travleing cross country think Supernatural only you know with Faith. But fox did that in by greenlighting a second season of Tru Calling that they never aired. The second was a Willow/Kennedy slayer academy show but the it never got out of the early stages of development I don't know how real this was but TV guide did report on it at the time. Third was the Buffy Animated series that was pitiched to Fox but they rejected it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnUvZP7-5LM that is the actual presentation that was shown to fox.

[Hopefulsuicide]

what about ripper? though i think anthony heads involvement in so many other projects makes it quite difficult

p.s. i'm kind of glad they never tried to make a buffy or angel movie... i think the idea worked so well on the small screen, there is such a feeling of a whole universe in there... having a movie would be like trying to attach a third arm to a perfectly healthy and whole body... it'd just be weird

[drew-crypto84]

what about ripper? though i think anthony heads involvement in so many other projects makes it quite difficult

Anthony Head says that he's ready to a Ripper spin-off and I read an article a couple of years ago (not sure if it's true though) that the BBC got the rights for Ripper and that they are waiting for Joss Whedon to write it. It is not known if it will either be a series or a one off TV-Movie but since there won't be another season of Doctor Who next year (don't worry Doctor Who fans it is taking a year off and will be back for the Xmas special next year and a new season in 2010) then that might just fit the gap bit I don't see Ripper as family friendly show so it might be a show for late teens and adults (much like Angels targeted audience) if it ever gets made.

[nicmar]

I forgot about Ripper funny considering that is the only one that is even still talked about I really hope this gets done one day I missed Giles later in the shows run and thought he was misused badly in season 7 when they pretty much destroyed his father/daugther relationship with Buffy.

[Skybound]

If joss would stop doing crap like Dollhouse there would be a spike movie!!!!!!!!

[Vergon6]

If joss would stop doing crap like Dollhouse there would be a spike movie!!!!!!!!
That's not true. The ship has sailed along time ago for the Spike movie. They were talking about that when Angel ended in 2004. It's now over four years later. Dollhouse just started being in development last year and hasn't even aired yet.

[Superboy2]

I think there should be a Buffy/Angel movie that finishes theshows properly, regardless of what comics there are.

[Hopefulsuicide]

If joss would stop doing crap like Dollhouse there would be a spike movie!!!!!!!!

how on earth do you know it's crap yet? i actually still hold hope that it could be brilliant... the only thing that puts me off is eliza, cause i thought tru calling was such a shambles

----- Added 2 Minutes later -----


I think there should be a Buffy/Angel movie that finishes theshows properly, regardless of what comics there are.

personally i thought buffy couldn't have ended better... i mean what ending would you have preffered? i thought the idea that she had given so many people the powers she had, hence giving her a chance at a life was wonderful.... which is why i hate the bloody comics!

and as angry as the ending of angel made me when i first saw it, i've grown to find that i actually like it as an ending... when i watch the series from start to finish, it does feel like a whole finished peice... same with buffy

[Superboy2]

Id at least wanna csee an Angel movie.

[Fat Elvis 007]

how on earth do you know it's crap yet? i actually still hold hope that it could be brilliant... the only thing that puts me off is eliza, cause i thought tru calling was such a shambles

"Tru Calling" was pretty badly written, at least from the little I watched, but I think Eliza has proven to be a great actress, and "Dollhouse" is going to give her a lot more diversity to play with.



personally i thought buffy couldn't have ended better... i mean what ending would you have preffered? i thought the idea that she had given so many people the powers she had, hence giving her a chance at a life was wonderful.... which is why i hate the bloody comics!

I half agree with this. I liked the empowerment spell. The rest of my thoughts on the last few seasons are well known in other threads here. ;) And yes, the comics are awful, for all sorts of reasons.


and as angry as the ending of angel made me when i first saw it, i've grown to find that i actually like it as an ending... when i watch the series from start to finish, it does feel like a whole finished peice... same with buffy

I love the Angel finale too. I wouldn't want a movie for either show.

[Hopefulsuicide]

don't get me wrong, i will be watching Dollhouse and i don't doubt that i will love it because i have loved everything Joss has ever done :lol:

[ThePlethora]

I absolutely loved Angel, I was a huge fan of it but even I'll admit season 5 was really a big stepdown from season 4. Not only did you lose Two major characters in Cordy and Connor (ANd 2 good and very good actors) but you also replaced them with Spike and Harmony. I did like some parts of season 5, (Lindsey coming back Smile time, Connor coming back, COrdy coming back,) but there was just so much bad **** on there.

That said the WB played "Will we or won't we cancel Angel" for like 3 years in a row, and they finally pulled the plug sometimes I'm grateful cause I didn't need to see SPike for another season but I would've liked to see them expand on the Connor/Angel relationship.

[nicmar]

I liked sesason 5 but that is not the point WB just did not want the show anymore they thought they could replace it with a Dark Shadows remake and do better the fact is ratings went up in season 5 and the fanbase was still loyal they took out a full page ad in Veriety which is not cheap in addition various petitions were sent it was never a matter of people being turned off by season 5 it was just that WB thought they could do better and they were wrong

[Tabularasa]

Dollhouse just doesn't get my interest. It looks like what's in that trailer is the entire show.

[nicmar]

Oddly enough the network is losing intrest as well there was a well publisized report that production was shut down over creative differences.

[Dannyblue1]

I liked sesason 5 but that is not the point WB just did not want the show anymore they thought they could replace it with a Dark Shadows remake and do better

Actually, that's not quite how it went.

Joss Whedon and the WB execs had this huge blowup. Joss either asked for a few more episodes for the season or a bigger budget. (It's been so long I can't remember.) The WB refused...and not in a nice way. Things already weren't good between the two (with Joss being ticked over the network's treatment of the show, and the network seeing Joss as difficult and demanding), so this last dispute was like the straw that broke the camels back. Tempers flared. Joss shot back with, "Well, if you're not going to support the show, you might as well cancel it!" And the execs, equally upset, shot back with, "Fine! It's canceled." The two parties stomped back to their own clubhouses, and the WB announced Angel's cancellation.

Almost immediately, the WB seemed to regret their decision. The WB president said, in the press, that they were sorry, they'd made a hasty decision, tempers had flared but, now that things had cooled down, they realized canceling the show had been a mistake, and they wanted to keep Angel in "the WB family."

Problem is that, once a network officially cancels a show, they can't just change their minds and go back to the way things were. Well, maybe they could if things are still relatively good between the network and the show. But I think the AtS folks were still ticked over the whole thing, and the way the show had been treated in general over the years. When the WB canceled the show, I think everyone on Angel (from the writers, to the cast, to the crew) pretty much said, "Well, then, screw 'em!" And they weren't really in the mood to go back into a situation where they hadn't been happy and things had ended so badly. Basically, the Angel folks didn't want to be in the "WB family" (where they had been treated like the red-headed step-child) anymore.

So the WB proposed doing a series of TV movies (several a year) instead. Their selling points were that it wouldn't be like doing a show. The writers would write a few two hour movies a year. (Much less involved than writing 22 episodes, right?) The cast would come in and spend a few weeks filming each movie. And everyone would be free to do other things outside of that. There were actually meetings between the WB and the AtS folks about these proposed movies. But, as with so many things in Hollywood, it never quite got off the ground.

[Fat Elvis 007]

I absolutely loved Angel, I was a huge fan of it but even I'll admit season 5 was really a big stepdown from season 4. Not only did you lose Two major characters in Cordy and Connor (ANd 2 good and very good actors) but you also replaced them with Spike and Harmony. I did like some parts of season 5, (Lindsey coming back Smile time, Connor coming back, COrdy coming back,) but there was just so much bad **** on there.

That said the WB played "Will we or won't we cancel Angel" for like 3 years in a row, and they finally pulled the plug sometimes I'm grateful cause I didn't need to see SPike for another season but I would've liked to see them expand on the Connor/Angel relationship.

Agreed. The second half of Season 5 was better, but I never got over the loss of Cordelia, especially given how her character had been treated in her last two years. But her return was excellent. I liked Harmony, but wish they had never brought in Spike. Seriously, you could have taken his character out and nothing about the main arc of the season would have changed. He served no purpose, just as he served no purpose in the last few seasons of Buffy. All he did was hang around and annoy both Angel and me.

[Hopefulsuicide]

personally i thought Spike was the breathe of fresh comedy air that was needed in the show. season 4 got seriously depressing. everyone had 'gone bad' in their own way and sort of come back from it, and we saw some of the most shocking moments on the show (conner dragging the blonde girl to her death sticks in my mind).

now don't get me wrong, i loved the drama, but i missed the elements of laughter. and the minute Spike came back i felt the show became a little lighter. and i needed that!

besides, Spike and Angel's storylines were brilliant, what with them both being contenders for a) buffy's heart and b) the prophecy. the dynamic between the two showed so much about the grey area of good and also gave us more insight into their friendship in the past. i thought that every second of Spike was well used.

but i do think it ended at the right time. i can't imagine where they would have gone from there. they sort of reach the top... i mean that was sort of literally as far as Angel and the crew could go, so i thought it was a fitting ending

[Fat Elvis 007]

I think Spike had some good moments, and his contrast with Angel was interesting at times. But I don't feel we really needed him to make things lighter. The season started off a lot lighter than Season 4 with the other characters as well.

But I mostly liked the last season. Far better than Buffy's last.

[Dannyblue1]

I liked Spike, but I don't think he was needed to add humor to AtS. AtS always did great humor. Even in season four, when so many dark, serious things were going on, they still had plenty of good, funny moments. Connor and Angel singing together. Cordy's rant on the way to Gwen's apartment, which still amuses me. Gunn exclaiming, "She eats people," which always tickles me for some reason. And all of "Spin the Bottle."

So it wasn't like AtS was humorless until Spike came along.

Also, I didn't care for the whole "Angel and Spike fight for Buffy's love," situation. For one thing, she wasn't even there. So they were fighting over what? Someone who wasn't even around and was actually dating someone else? And a lot of AtS fans had never even watched Buffy, and didn't care about them fighting over some girl they had never even seen.

After a while, I got the sense they weren't even fighting over Buffy. Not really. Angel and Spike were just so used to being rivals, and fighting over everything (Dru, the Shanshu, etc) Buffy seemed to be just one more thing for them to compete for.

[SSJConan]

I personally loved the inclusion of Spike. Not just for the fresh comedic element he brings to the series, but his ensouled-vamp status also brought a whole new dynamic and twist to the Shanshu story-line. The Shanshu story hadn't really been dealt with a whole lot, but Spike's presence as a champion whom saved the world added an ambiguous nature and intrigue to what was before a forgettable (by the writers) aspect of Angel's destiny. Spike wasn't just an important character to Buffy's story, but also Angel's, as evidenced by the fact he appeared in a couple early season eps anyway. I never got a jarring vibe from him in Season 5 and I like how gradual the process was for him to become corporeal and eventually join Angel's Wolfram & Hart branch, he didn't just up and decide.