What if the Veritas members have it all wrong?

[xrayvision]

What if the Veritas members misinterpreted who the Traveler is?

I heard that in Justice & Doom, Gertrude (Genevieve's ancestor in the 1600's) was somehow contacted by Zod from the future and found out about the stones through him. Gertrude seemed to have been in a pre-Veritas society in the 1600's.

What if the pre-Veritas society was the one that came up with the Traveler idea and they deemed Zod as the Traveler & considered him a severe threat? Then this device in the FOS would be used against him so that they could control him and prevent him from destroying the world. It would make much more sense if Jor-El also contacted these pre-Veritas society members and told them about a hidden way to control the Traveler (Zod) based on the stones that he hid that would form the FOS and allow them to control Zod. This would mean that Jor-El would have had to time travel to the 1600's and have hidden the stones.

Edward Teague was mixing apples & oranges---the Veritas secret and the legend of Naman & Sageeth. The prophecy he talked about was the cave prophecy where Sageeth was the destroyer he mentioned. This was NOT from Veritas. Veritas was not based on a prophecy, but instead on communicated messages from Zod to Gertrude and Jor-El to Dr. Swann. So when Edward said that the savior could also become the destroyer if he is controlled--this was not a belief from Veritas. This was a mixture of the destroyer (Sageeth) from the Naman/Sageeth legend and the device to controlling the Traveler from the Veritas secret. My basic point is, the original Traveler as discovered by Gertrude and others from her time is not necessarily Naman. The Veritas members (Lionel, the Teagues & Swann) could have skewed & misinterpreted the identity of the Traveler.

Why does this make sense? Because:

1. Veritas did not know about the arrival of their interpretation of the Traveler until Jor-El sent those messages that were intercepted by Swann.

2. Gertrude and the others of her time had started the work for the protection against the Traveler back in the 1600's---way before Jor-El ever sent the messages that Swann intercepted.

Jor-El would not have sent the "deliver Kal-El from evil" messages back to the 1600's because Clark was going to what was present day Earth between 1986 & 1989. But Jor-El could have contacted Gertrude in the 1600's in different ways for the case if Zod ever made it to Earth. He could have found out about Zod's transmissions from Krypton/the Phantom Zone (wherever it was when he contacted Gertrude) and sent them a message to counter any threat that he posed.

So from this, it should be somewhat clear that who Gertrude and those of the 1600's thought was the Traveler is not who the actual Veritas members thought was the Traveler.

[krpto]

I could see that the orb was sent in case kal-el failed to defeat a kryptonian villian/died and his friends/other humans needed it to help save the world.

[Imzadia]

You make a great point, 'x-rayvision', and I remember the secret society of Gertrude's time wanting to protect the Traveler just as the Veritas group wanted to do. However, Zod wasn't sent to the Phantom Zone until he'd been proven quilty of trying to commit genocide along with other atrocities back on Krypton in a time closer to Krypton's destruction. There's no way to communicate from the Phantom Zone without someone from outside the 'Zone' initiating contact. It's not clear exactly WHO the mysterious figure in shadow silouette was that spoke to Gertrude and her group. The witch, Isobel - Lana's ancestor, was only the leader of a group who'd heard of the Stones of Power and wanted the power for herself. Which would probably be the case if any human gained possession of the stones.

In "Justice and Doom", I thought it had been Martian Manhunter who was finally revealed to be the Narrator of the story. In some of the first episodes of J&D, it was alluded to the silouetted figure being Dr. Swann or his son? Although we never learned whether or not he ever had a son. So, I find all of it a bit confusing since when it ended the 'mysterious person' turned out to be MM.

It was supposed to explain how the story had been set into motion a very long time ago. I know in the Superman movies, Jor-El, in the FoS, told Clark that by the time he was hearing his voice, he (Jor-El) would have already been Dead for many thousands of Earth's years. So, it may have been possible to have Kryptonians travel to earth for hundreds or thousands of years, since 'Time' is different when talking about treveling through wormholes, or faster than the speed of light, how much time passes when such travel occurs.

The Teague's and their families said that they had sacrificed many lives for many years protecting "The Traveler". They expected him to be capable of doing Great things, especially protecting Earth from being ruled by 'evil'. It's a Similar story in the Kawache caves, except they had details of how The Traveler would arrive, and what kind of abilities he would have. Then they warned of Naman's Adversary, Seageeth. I think the part about "something" to Control The Traveler was added later by the writers to add more drama to prolong Clark's journey. Other than that, it was all following a clearer path before.

[Poweranimals]

The idea of the Traveler existed long before Kal-El though. Kryptonians have been to Earth before and claimed that they would one day send someone to save them. It's not like they did so with Kal-El in mind, but he was simply the one chosen for the task.

[xrayvision]

You make a great point, 'x-rayvision', and I remember the secret society of Gertrude's time wanting to protect the Traveler just as the Veritas group wanted to do. However, Zod wasn't sent to the Phantom Zone until he'd been proven quilty of trying to commit genocide along with other atrocities back on Krypton in a time closer to Krypton's destruction. There's no way to communicate from the Phantom Zone without someone from outside the 'Zone' initiating contact. It's not clear exactly WHO the mysterious figure in shadow silouette was that spoke to Gertrude and her group. The witch, Isobel - Lana's ancestor, was only the leader of a group who'd heard of the Stones of Power and wanted the power for herself. Which would probably be the case if any human gained possession of the stones.

In "Justice and Doom", I thought it had been Martian Manhunter who was finally revealed to be the Narrator of the story. In some of the first episodes of J&D, it was alluded to the silouetted figure being Dr. Swann or his son? Although we never learned whether or not he ever had a son. So, I find all of it a bit confusing since when it ended the 'mysterious person' turned out to be MM.

That's interesting. I thought it was established that it was Zod. Someone here said he used jewel kryptonite. But jewel kryptonite isn't supposed to be able to communicate through time. It's supposed to be able to communicate from those in the Phantom Zone, where time doesn't exist to whatever year it is in the outside world. I could understand Phantom Zone prisoners talking to those in the future since people in the Phantom Zone don't age while the outside world does age, but not to people who lived before them.

I never watched the Justice & Doom thing, so I wouldn't know who was revealed as the one to talk to Gertrude. From what I read, I always assumed it was Zod even though the explanation was ridiculous.

[Poweranimals]

Actually, I forgot about all the prophecies so maybe they were somewhat aware that it would be Kal-El. It makes me wonder though if they'll explain how they knew what would happen. Maybe there was some sort of time travel involved or maybe they were simply more spiritual back then.

[xrayvision]

Unless the people of Gertrude's era came to what later on became the U.S. and went to Kansas and spoke to the Kawatche, they wouldn't have known about the cave, or the legend.

And it is most likely that they never went to Kansas, because if they did, Isobel wouldn't have wondered why she was resurrected in Kansas as she pondered in Spell. She had a good handle on what Gertrude & company were up to and even stole the map to the stone in China (in the scroll) that they found. So if Gertrude went to Kansas, Isobel would have known and likely checked it out.

[krpto]

Unless the people of Gertrude's era came to what later on became the U.S. and went to Kansas and spoke to the Kawatche, they wouldn't have known about the cave, or the legend.

And it is most likely that they never went to Kansas, because if they did, Isobel wouldn't have wondered why she was resurrected in Kansas as she pondered in Spell. She had a good handle on what Gertrude & company were up to and even stole the map to the stone in China (in the scroll) that they found. So if Gertrude went to Kansas, Isobel would have known and likely checked it out.

as we know the symbols have popped up all over the world I am sure more people then just the Kawatche knew about a savior from the stars coming They just had the most information about kal-el. And if other tribes of people knew kal-el or naman was coming I am sure Gertrude could have found out.

[xrayvision]

If that was true, then the people of China, Egypt and all the other areas would have known about this savior. As Isobel said, the people of China believed that the temple was that of a god, but that the god abandoned it. Otherwise, if they really believed the god would actually show up, they would be scared to plunder it.

[krpto]

china believed the god abandoned them then that means they knew a god was at one time at least supposed to be on earth wich means they had heard the stories even if the current people didn't beleave them Gertrude could have back in the old day.

[GuardianAngel]

Great theory, Xrayvision!

Even I didn't buy that Jor-el sent that device to control Clark. Something doesn't add up and that device doesn't look like anything we've seen so far from Jor-el. Its shape and colour are more in line with Zod and BRAINIAC. I hope we get a proper answer next week.

In any case I was glad the writers recalled a lot of elements from seasons 2, 3 and 4 with "Quest". We're getting close to getting explanations I've been waiting for for the past 5 years.

[hogwartsmallville]

But wasn't in Justice & Doom's part with the witches, mentioned that they've "misunderstood the message/prophecy" or something like that? And also I'm ot sure if the person showing is Isobel or Gertrude, but it looks like she is communicacting with somebody, as somebody said maybe is zod or jor-el, but the fact is that if it is mentioned that she misunderstood the prophecy, she wasn't suposed to protect the traveler, and also, who was the bad one: Isobel or Gertrude? I think that wasn't completely explained. Or am I missing something?

[Kevin24]

Could that god they talk about during Sacred be "Kem-el" ?

Xray posted this somewhere else about Kem-el....is it possible that he is that god?

[xrayvision]

Could that god they talk about during Sacred be "Kem-el" ?

Xray posted this somewhere else about Kem-el....is it possible that he is that god?


It was the Kryptonian who placed the stone in the China temple. I'm not sure they will ever reveal the identity of the Kryptonian who visited the Kawatche in the 1500's or the identity of the Kryptonian(s) who hid the stones on Earth (whether it was the same person who visited the Kawatche or not).

I grew so impatient with this that I posted my own fanfic that explained everything last June:

http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76369

[Timester]

That's interesting. I thought it was established that it was Zod. Someone here said he used jewel kryptonite. But jewel kryptonite isn't supposed to be able to communicate through time. It's supposed to be able to communicate from those in the Phantom Zone, where time doesn't exist to whatever year it is in the outside world. I could understand Phantom Zone prisoners talking to those in the future since people in the Phantom Zone don't age while the outside world does age, but not to people who lived before them.

Yeah, it was Zod the communicated with Isobel throught a "crystal ball" and ordered her to start looking for the stones to release him (it's on Gertrude's diary, part of the J&D files). After all, Isobel was the one that hidden the stone in China.

----- Added 2 Minutes later -----


It was the Kryptonian who placed the stone in the China temple. I'm not sure they will ever reveal the identity of the Kryptonian who visited the Kawatche in the 1500's or the identity of the Kryptonian(s) who hid the stones on Earth (whether it was the same person who visited the Kawatche or not).[/url]

Don't know who placed the stone in the first place in China, but it was Isobel that hidden in on her travel to the temple.

[xrayvision]

Yeah, it was Zod the communicated with Isobel throught a "crystal ball" and ordered her to start looking for the stones to release him (it's on Gertrude's diary, part of the J&D files). After all, Isobel was the one that hidden the stone in China.

----- Added 2 Minutes later -----



Don't know who placed the stone in the first place in China, but it was Isobel that hidden in on her travel to the temple.

Are you sure she hid the stone? I thought a Kryptonian did it. The stone was undisturbed in that horse statue. It seemed like a Kryptonian made the original map on that garment that Clark found. I think Isobel was the one who either stole the map that was in the manuscript that Lex got in Run or made that map by copying the one on the garment. She may have stolen it from Gertrude and Gertrude probably had her killed because of that.

I know professor Sen who Clark & Lana met in China said the map was stolen by European bandits. I'm guessing that was either Gertrude & company or Isobel.

----- Added 28 Minutes later -----

It's possible that Isobel used her magic to open the crypt and placed the original map garment inside (which probably was originally exposed for public viewing in the temple) while making a copy on that manuscript and sealing the original map inside the crypt with magic. I wonder who wrote the "look deeper" message in Kryptonian on the border of the manuscript. I don't think Isobel could read Kryptonian since she didn't seem to know what the symbols meant.

[Blue screen of death]

Does naman and sageeth have to be an individual or could it be a title? The battle of light an dark is as old as time itself. Jor-el and Zod may have been the previous incarnations and they did what they could to help/hinder the next as well as lay out their own plans for the future.

[xrayvision]

^^Well, all the indicators point it to being Clark (Naman) & Lex (Sageeth):

Naman coming down in a rain of fire: Clark coming to Earth during the meteor shower

Naman having the strength of 10 men: Clark's superstrength (yeah, it is much more than that of 10 men)

Naman being able to shoot fire from his eyes: Heatvision

Sageeth being the friend who becomes the enemy: Lex being Clark's best friend and becoming his worst enemy

The Starblade crumbling when Sageeth touches it: The Starblade crumbled after Lex touched it

[adromidon]

I just wish that they had focused on the Naman and Sageeth legends more they seem to have all but abandon them.

[Blue screen of death]

^^Well, all the indicators point it to being Clark (Naman) & Lex (Sageeth):

Naman coming down in a rain of fire: Clark coming to Earth during the meteor shower

Naman having the strength of 10 men: Clark's superstrength (yeah, it is much more than that of 10 men)

Naman being able to shoot fire from his eyes: Heatvision

Sageeth being the friend who becomes the enemy: Lex being Clark's best friend and becoming his worst enemy

The Starblade crumbling when Sageeth touches it: The Starblade crumbled after Lex touched it

This is all true, however, couldn't Zod and jor-el been friends at one point? Kryptonians have been coming to the planet for a long time now. They all would have had the same powers. Just because jor-el came to smallville in the 60's doesn't mean he couldn't have comeback at an earlier similarly to the way braniac took kara. He could have written the prophecy, knowing that krypton was doomed could have used the time event generator for lack of a better term to try and save his planet. Zod ofcourse would have done anything and eveything inhis power to stop him. So Jor-el set up clark to be naman and Zod was the one to send the messages rule them with strength and is repsonsible for all the un jor-el likethings. That would include fake kara, the reprograming into "kal-el" for the retrieval of the stones. So Jor-el banishes Zod to the phantom zone in the last days of krypton and the planet gets destroyed because of zod and kal-el escapes to be naman. Zod has braniac, aether, and namek to work on his release(zods). So darkness won but lost at the sametime. Lex became sageeth clark became naman and the sruggle starts all over again. Friends who become enemies for the battle of light and dark again.

I hope you don't mind me going total devils advocate on you. I do like the theory its good. I just want make sure its as epic as you are presenting and really get the gears working. You do have a lot of good insights and its fun working out all the bugs so to say.

[xrayvision]

Well, Joseph Willowbrook said that the prophecy was written 500 years ago. Part of the legend says Naman comes to Earth in a rain of fire---something that didn't happen when Jor-El came in the 60's.

But I get what you're saying. I'm not sure Jor-El would go back in the 1500's though. They said that Kryptonians have been coming to Earth for a while. I'm guessing the House of El first showed up on Earth around the 1500's.

If it turns out to be Kem-El (from the comics) who first visited the Kawatche, then it would also likely be him who was involved with the device that can control the Traveler. My best guess for that device (whether it's the orb or something in the FOS that the orb leads to) is that it is the Eradicator. And in the comics, Kem-El created the Eradicator. And the Eradicator is what restores Superman's powers after he came back to life from death by Doomsday.

----- Added 21 Minutes later -----

By the way, I do have a theory that explains the fake Kara:

http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83686

And it's still entirely possible since none of the events that happened since I posted it contradict it.

[Blue screen of death]

Well, Joseph Willowbrook said that the prophecy was written 500 years ago. Part of the legend says Naman comes to Earth in a rain of fire---something that didn't happen when Jor-El came in the 60's.

But I get what you're saying. I'm not sure Jor-El would go back in the 1500's though. They said that Kryptonians have been coming to Earth for a while. I'm guessing the House of El first showed up on Earth around the 1500's.

If it turns out to be Kem-El (from the comics) who first visited the Kawatche, then it would also likely be him who was involved with the device that can control the Traveler. My best guess for that device (whether it's the orb or something in the FOS that the orb leads to) is that it is the Eradicator. And in the comics, Kem-El created the Eradicator. And the Eradicator is what restores Superman's powers after he came back to life from death by Doomsday.

----- Added 21 Minutes later -----

By the way, I do have a theory that explains the fake Kara:

http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83686

And it's still entirely possible since none of the events that happened since I posted it contradict it.

True true, again more good stuff. Though If jor-el knew krypton was going to explode, depending on which comic you read he knew the planet core was unstable and was going to blow up. So if jor-el managed to go back and make the paintings he would have know krypton was going to explode and he was going to send his son away. So knowing of the rain of fire is coming he would have known kal would have come to earth in a rain of fire. He could have givin an oral as well as a painted idea of the prophecy. Krypton is an advanced civilization, they have technology that far exceeds anything we can do today. So i think knowing that technological people are least likely to believe in prophecies and magic Jor-el would have gone back in time to a more primitive period in hopes that people would be more readily willing to accept his son. The current mind would have tried to do exactly what some of veritas is doing now. Try to find a way to control, eliminate, or make a lab rat out of kal. In doing this he would have had an opportunity to hide the famed stones of knowledge, also known as jor-el's famed fortress of knowledge, also known as the fortress of solitude, also known as all the scientific data ever known or atleast all that krypton had before it was destroyed.

[xrayvision]

The writers of Smallville seemed to be confused on how Krypton was destroyed. At first they told us that it was because of war and that Zod was responsible. Then they showed that the red Kryptonian sun exploded & took Krypton with it. So I'm not sure of what to make of it anymore. They change their minds so much that it's confusing on what is the official reason.

I think having it be Jor-El who told the Kawatche to make the paintings would place too much importance on him. They need to show that the House of El was keen on science and Earth exploration way before Jor-El. The portals between Krypton & Earth that Lara, Kara & Zor-El used as seen in Lara when they were on Earth in 1986 seemed to have existed long before Jor-El, so someone must have stopped by to work on them.

What you're saying is entirely possible though. My personal preference would be that an ancestor of Clark's & Jor-El's made them, more specifically Kem-El, the creator of the Eradicator in the comics. If the Eradicator in this show is able to see the future (as the Jor-El AI seems to be able to do at times), then it's understandable how Kem-El knew about Clark & Lex.

[Blue screen of death]

yes, it does seem to come down to personal preference i guess or whatever the person perceiving can come up with. Though yeah there are many loopholes and inconsistencies its still fun to try an piece together what may or may not have happened. The story is always bigger then what is shown which is why going back and forth like this is always fun. Thanks for the great debate.

[All about Clark]

The writers of Smallville seemed to be confused on how Krypton was destroyed. At first they told us that it was because of war and that Zod was responsible. Then they showed that the red Kryptonian sun exploded & took Krypton with it. So I'm not sure of what to make of it anymore. They change their minds so much that it's confusing on what is the official reason.

I didn't feel we were given conflicting information. I think the war and Zod did indeed destroy the planet. I think the planet being so unstable from the war caused the red sun to explode first, taking out Krypton.

[xrayvision]

Even with their advanced weapons and technology, I still doubt they could destroy a sun, which dwarfs the size of Krypton.

I made a theory about this actually based on a fanfic episode I wrote:

http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89821

[LastSonKalEl]

great insights on both sides...i don't think we will ever get a true answer in relation to these questions..bc the writers just aren't that specific...and in general it isn't that in depth or sophisticated sadly....there are way too many generalities as to the origins of both prophecies i wish we could finally get an answer to those origins but i dont know when we will...or how they would pull it off....let's hope they find a way as creatives as the ones we have come up with...i mean if not we should start getting paychecks and a nice office at tollin robbins or gough/millar with the sign "writer" on the wall