Clark KILLED Jonathan Kent

[Superman of Krypton]

When Lana died in "Reckoning," Jor-El warned Clark that the life of someone else close to him would be sacrificed if Clark went back and saved Lana.

Clark went back in time to make sure Lana was the one who didnt die, and Jonathan died so Lana could live.

Jonathan's fatal heart condition even stemmed from him taking responsibility to save the world from Clark (in Season 3) when Clark selfishly put on the Red K ring (knowing how dangerous it could make him to the world).

Jonathan's death is a direct result of Clark's stupidity.

Clark is responsible for Jonathan's death; Lex was spot on.

[Ilovebeinglost]

Well we know that and so does Clark. Nothing new there. Don't you remember the speech Martha gve give? A heart can only beat so many times in a life time. He blamed himself for a long time and Like Martha said, do you think if given the chance you could have chosen which one to save?

[jazel]

Clark blames himself for EVERYTHING bad, that happens. Not sure why that accusation upset him, when he himself thought that.

[Superman of Krypton]

I wouldnt have gone back in time after Lana died knowing someone else would die in her place.

It wouldnt be up to me to play God and choose the person who dies (and especially let another innocent life be sacrificed just so I can get my girlfriend back).

----- Added 52 Seconds later -----


Clark blames himself for EVERYTHING bad, that happens. Not sure why that accusation upset him, when he himself thought that.

Because he was trying to look cool in front of Lex. He secretly loves him.

[jazel]

Because he was trying to look cool in front of Lex. He secretly loves him.

:lol:

[Alexander III]

I wouldnt have gone back in time after Lana died knowing someone else would die in her place.

It wouldnt be up to me to play God and choose the person who dies (and especially let another innocent life be sacrificed just so I can get my girlfriend back).

----- Added 52 Seconds later -----



Because he was trying to look cool in front of Lex. He secretly loves him.

Clark is Lex's liddo b!tch :D

[BWOracle]

Clark certainly bears responsibility for his bad choices but to say he killed him is a little harsh.

It's obviously a sore spot for Clark, so naturally evil Lex used it against him.

[vezz801]

answer me this who would have died had Mr. Kent AND Lana been saved? Martha? Chloe? Both would be a direct fault of Clark's, so to heck with Lex, give him a break. Jor-El brougth Clark back, which in turn led to another's death, and Jor-El's the one who took Clark's powers in the first place so even though Mr. Kent would have gone soon anyway, I still blame Jor-El

[Thrill_Seeker]

When Lana died in "Reckoning," Jor-El warned Clark that the life of someone else close to him would be sacrificed if Clark went back and saved Lana.
Clark went back in time to make sure Lana was the one who didnt die, and Jonathan died so Lana could live.

Jonathan's fatal heart condition even stemmed from him taking responsibility to save the world from Clark (in Season 3) when Clark selfishly put on the Red K ring (knowing how dangerous it could make him to the world).
Jonathan's death is a direct result of Clark's stupidity.

Clark is responsible for Jonathan's death; Lex was spot on.

I know !!! Clark never learns from his dam mistakes and I really hope that he does this season. His stupidity WAs the thing that caused jonathan kent to die and in a way clark knows that, but hes spent alot of time trying to get past his mistake but I dont think he has, cos that was a HUGE and his BIGGEST mistake, yet.

[RepairmanBob]

answer me this who would have died had Mr. Kent AND Lana been saved? Martha? Chloe? Both would be a direct fault of Clark's, so to heck with Lex, give him a break. Jor-El brougth Clark back, which in turn led to another's death, and Jor-El's the one who took Clark's powers in the first place so even though Mr. Kent would have gone soon anyway, I still blame Jor-ElJor-El put Clark in a no win situation, by taking his powers away then bringing him back at the cost of another person's life.

Jonathan was popping heart medication like candy when he decided to run for the incredibly powerful position of Kansas State Senator. Because Lex as a rookie state senator is a threat to democracy and incompetent farmers everywhere. Plus, Jonathan has his heart attack after he started a fight with Lionel.

Yes, Clark screwed up when he changed the time line. (Leave the crystal in case I need to prevent a global apocalypse in the future, or save Lana?) But I do not agree he Jonathan's death is is sole responsibility. IMO, lex was just trying to be a jerk so he said something he knew would hurt Clark. It worked because Clark has an over-developed sense of guilt and her loved Jonathan.

[Yasise]

Clark blames himself for EVERYTHING bad, that happens. Not sure why that accusation upset him, when he himself thought that.

It's always worse to hear accusations like that from another person, more so when you are blaming yourself for that anyway. And it is not important if you're blaming yourself rightfully for something or not in that case.

But to think about it by yourself or to hear it openly from another person is different and always harder to swallow or to accept and if that person is someone, who hates you and you don't like him either....well.....

[TOMophilus]

The thread starter seems to forget that Jor-El started the stupid "cosmic balance" story in Arrival by taking away Clark´s powers, just because Clark was too busy saving people to return to the FOS in time. So he is the cruel guy responsible for that deadly game. Jor-El simply is an abusive father, so why should Clark have learned to trust him? Moreover, Jonathan Kent bears responsibility too for Clark´s putting on the RedK ring back in Exodus. He always was an authoritarian and ill-tempered guy who failed to build a trusting relationship with his son. Otherwise Clark would have been able to talk things over with him without causing ill-tempered reactions.

[AlwaysRight]

answer me this who would have died had Mr. Kent AND Lana been saved? Martha? Chloe? Both would be a direct fault of Clark's, so to heck with Lex, give him a break. Jor-El brougth Clark back, which in turn led to another's death, and Jor-El's the one who took Clark's powers in the first place so even though Mr. Kent would have gone soon anyway, I still blame Jor-El

if you watch closely you will notice that Lois is the first one to be saved in both timelines(first time by lana, second time by Clark) :P

[GuardianAngel]

Moreover, Jonathan Kent bears responsibility too for Clark´s putting on the RedK ring back in Exodus. He always was an authoritarian and ill-tempered guy who failed to build a trusting relationship with his son. Otherwise Clark would have been able to talk things over with him without causing ill-tempered reactions.

You're kidding, right?:eek:

[BadToad]

Why is this even a topic for this episode? Whatever culpability you think Clark has for Jonathan's death, and thats certainly debateable, this is an episode about Lex delibertately pushing Lionel out a window to his certain death. Its not in any way comparable to what happened with Clark and Jonathan.

As far as Clark blaming himself for Jonathan, HE HAS. What more do you want him to do? Even in this episode, he was doing it again. What more do you people freaking want? But did you really expect Clark to just stand there and allow Lex, who Clark is aware just murdered Lionel, to make comments and accusations about his own father? I would've shut him the hell up too.

If you go to the end of the episode, you would've seen that Clark does feel responsible for Jonathan dying, and he does feel bad about it, and it does weigh heavily on his conscience. But then people complain that Clark blames himself for everything, and that he's mopey, and so on. He can't win with some of you.

And yes, AI Jor-El most certainly plays a part in what happened. As much as some like to blame Clark for everything, as though his every action occured in a vaccum, thats just not the way it happened at all.

[TOMophilus]

You're kidding, right?:eek:
No, I´m not. JK had his good moments as a dad, but overall I found him an unpleasant self-righteous, authoritarian man. I´m very glad my dad was not like that.

[Superman of Krypton]

The thread starter seems to forget that Jor-El started the stupid "cosmic balance" story in Arrival by taking away Clark´s powers, just because Clark was too busy saving people to return to the FOS in time. So he is the cruel guy responsible for that deadly game. Jor-El simply is an abusive father, so why should Clark have learned to trust him? .

Jor-El ordered Clark to return to the Fortress in order to train him how to defeat the impending threat (the Brain Interactive Construct in the Black Ship). If Clark actually listened to Jor-El and returned to the FoS, instead of trying to save Lana....Clark could have been able to defeat Brainiac at that point in time and save more lives.

Time exists differently in the Fortress.



Moreover, Jonathan Kent bears responsibility too for Clark´s putting on the RedK ring back in Exodus. He always was an authoritarian and ill-tempered guy who failed to build a trusting relationship with his son. Otherwise Clark would have been able to talk things over with him without causing ill-tempered reactions.


Are you serious? It was Clark's stupidity again that led to the explosion that killed Martha's unborn child.

The explosion could have done even more damage as well if there were other civilians in the area. Jonathan's disapointment with Clark's actions was justified.

Clark's reasons for putting on the ring were selfish. He just didnt want to feel like an idiot for all the pain he caused.

[GuardianAngel]

Well said, Superman_of_Krypton! But more than stupidity, it was Clark's immaturity which lead him to destroy the spaceship and put that ring on. He chose to run away from the problem, not to face it.

Even though I can understand him - Jor-el was really threatening and burnt his chest with the symbol of the House of El - what happened was a direct consequence of Clark's actions and nothing more.

----- Added 4 Minutes later -----


No, I´m not. JK had his good moments as a dad, but overall I found him an unpleasant self-righteous, authoritarian man. I´m very glad my dad was not like that.

I completely disagree. Jonathan may have made some mistakes - he was human after all - but he wasn't authoritarian and self-righteous. He tried to teach Clark some values, guide him and laid down some rules which was completely right, IMO.

[Timester]

This was a pointless non-issue that makes no sense being brought 2 years later. Was Clark responsible for Jonathan's death? Yes, he was and he felt guilt of it in Wreckoning. So why the need to beat a dead horse now?

[TOMophilus]

Are you serious? It was Clark's stupidity again that led to the explosion that killed Martha's unborn child.
The explosion could have done even more damage as well if there were other civilians in the area. Jonathan's disapointment with Clark's actions was justified.
You get the causality wrong. If Clark had been able to discuss this properly with his dad instead of hiding it from him, then this wouldn´t have happened. This indicates that his dad never was able to build a trusting relationship to his son. Otherwise Clark would have known that he could turn to him without just getting another self-righteous lecture.

By the way, don´t you find it a little bit over the top to bash a frightened 17-year old for making a wrong decision?

[RepairmanBob]

Jor-El ordered Clark to return to the Fortress in order to train him how to defeat the impending threat (the Brain Interactive Construct in the Black Ship). If Clark actually listened to Jor-El and returned to the FoS, instead of trying to save Lana....Clark could have been able to defeat Brainiac at that point in time and save more lives.

Time exists differently in the Fortress.Since when does time pass differently in the FoS? When has that ever been established on Smallville? Jor-El was quite happy to kill Chloe and let the DoZ trash Smallville, so long at Clark stayed for his training. The AI was willing to sacrifice hundreds, perhaps thousands of lives to make sure Clark could complete his training.

If time does passed more slowly at the FoS, then it is even worse. The damn AI could not just have said "About 27 minutes will pass in the outside world my son, then I will teleport you back to the farm. It would take you that long to run there, anyway. It's all good." No, we get another stupid "Obey me or be punished" speech, Clark loses his powers, and the death of a loved on arc begins.

Clark does plenty of stupid things. (Most of them involving Lana in some way, shape of form.) But there is plenty of blame to go around for Jonathan's death, starting with Jonathan and Jor-El.
As far as Clark blaming himself for Jonathan, HE HAS. What more do you want him to do? Even in this episode, he was doing it again. What more do you people freaking want? But did you really expect Clark to just stand there and allow Lex, who Clark is aware just murdered Lionel, to make comments and accusations about his own father? I would've shut him the hell up too.
Thank you.

[Theshadow129x]

in the earlier seasons like seasons 4 and under it was simple for forgive Clark for the mistakes he made because he was young and he was a teenager and lets face it when you are a teen you screw up and you do it big time. its when he got older than we saw Clark as an idiot because he's been making the same mistakes as he has in the past thats why people are so hard on him. to bash clark for the death of his father isn't really appropriate because he didnt know what was going to happen because he thought he prevented the death of someone he loved. but there had to be a balance based off of what Jor-el said. Because Clark was brought back to life someone else had to take his spot, and that turned out to be his father seeing as Lana was saved by Clark. Jor-el warned him that if he was to save her then the universe would find a balance and he just simply didnt hear him out on that part.i dont think Clark was dumb for trying to prevent the life of someone else i just find it screwed up that after all that he's still willing to sacrifice people for lana which is stupid

----- Added 4 Minutes later -----


Since when does time pass differently in the FoS? When has that ever been established on Smallville? Jor-El was quite happy to kill Chloe and let the DoZ trash Smallville, so long at Clark stayed for his training. The AI was willing to sacrifice hundreds, perhaps thousands of lives to make sure Clark could complete his training.

If time does passed more slowly at the FoS, then it is even worse. The damn AI could not just have said "About 27 minutes will pass in the outside world my son, then I will teleport you back to the farm. It would take you that long to run there, anyway. It's all good." No, we get another stupid "Obey me or be punished" speech, Clark loses his powers, and the death of a loved on arc begins.

Clark does plenty of stupid things. (Most of them involving Lana in some way, shape of form.) But there is plenty of blame to go around for Jonathan's death, starting with Jonathan and Jor-El.Thank you.



I'm not arguing with you about what he said about time in the FoS but I will argue about Jor-el. He simply tries to tell Clark to stop listening to emotions and save people based off of logic. kind of like in superman returns where he was about to save Lois and Jason on the boat but had to go back to the city to save all those other people from dying thats all Jor-el is trying to teach Clark but Clark is so ignorant that he thinks his emotions are all that matter. but its also not the AI's fault seeing as the writers just dont understand what Jorel is all about

[petitemimi]

This was a pointless non-issue that makes no sense being brought 2 years later. Was Clark responsible for Jonathan's death? Yes, he was and he felt guilt of it in Wreckoning. So why the need to beat a dead horse now?

I agree. Maybe you should go back to the season 5 threads to re-debate this.

BTW, I don't get why people say all the time that Clark should have listened to Jor-El. Jor-El gave him orders, never explained the reason for the orders and Clark responded with what he knew at the time. In Mortal, he didn't choose to be ressucitated by Jor-El and he didn't choose that someone close to him would die as a consequence.

I mean really, Clark is badly written a lot of times but I don't feel it's necessary to rehash old debates just for the sake of bashing Clark.

[RepairmanBob]

but its also not the AI's fault seeing as the writers just dont understand what Jorel is all about<!-- / message --><!-- edit note -->I disagree. If the writers on Smallville make the Jor-El AI a psychotic, manipulative, abusive, secretive machine with a God complex it does not get a pass from me because the Jor-Els in other versions of Superman have been cool. YMMV.
BTW, I don't get why people say all the time that Clark should have listened to Jor-El. Jor-El gave him orders, never explained the reason for the orders and Clark responded with what he knew at the time. In Mortal, he didn't choose to be ressucitated by Jor-El and he didn't choose that someone close to him would die as a consequence.

I mean really, Clark is badly written a lot of times but I don't feel it's necessary to rehash old debates just for the sake of bashing Clark.<!-- / message -->Agreed. All of the characters, including Clark, have made plenty of more recent mistakes they can be bashed for.

[princesslaya]

I wouldnt have gone back in time after Lana died knowing someone else would die in her place.

It wouldnt be up to me to play God and choose the person who dies (and especially let another innocent life be sacrificed just so I can get my girlfriend back).

----- Added 52 Seconds later -----



Because he was trying to look cool in front of Lex. He secretly loves him.

:lol::lol::lol:.....thats funny

[Chloe_is_my_Hero]

if you watch closely you will notice that Lois is the first one to be saved in both timelines(first time by lana, second time by Clark) :P

Very nice observation!

[TheANIMAL (marcus)]

That observation has come from the Jor-El is a Cloiser thread.

[Yasise]

I agree. Maybe you should go back to the season 5 threads to re-debate this.

BTW, I don't get why people say all the time that Clark should have listened to Jor-El. Jor-El gave him orders, never explained the reason for the orders and Clark responded with what he knew at the time. In Mortal, he didn't choose to be ressucitated by Jor-El and he didn't choose that someone close to him would die as a consequence.

I mean really, Clark is badly written a lot of times but I don't feel it's necessary to rehash old debates just for the sake of bashing Clark.

So true, thank you!

[RepairmanBob]

if you watch closely you will notice that Lois is the first one to be saved in both timelines(first time by lana, second time by Clark) :P
I don't ship Clois, but that make me laugh.

[IamProdigy]

Hahaha, wow.

People are still gettng "Mortal" confused with "Hidden".

[red_sun1938]

Jor-El put Clark in a no win situation, by taking his powers away then bringing him back at the cost of another person's life.

Jonathan was popping heart medication like candy when he decided to run for the incredibly powerful position of Kansas State Senator. Because Lex as a rookie state senator is a threat to democracy and incompetent farmers everywhere. Plus, Jonathan has his heart attack after he started a fight with Lionel.

Yes, Clark screwed up when he changed the time line. (Leave the crystal in case I need to prevent a global apocalypse in the future, or save Lana?) But I do not agree he Jonathan's death is is sole responsibility. IMO, lex was just trying to be a jerk so he said something he knew would hurt Clark. It worked because Clark has an over-developed sense of guilt and her loved Jonathan.

agree 100%

[DarkseidNow]

I wouldn't say that Clark KILLED Johnathan. But his actions did indirectly cause Johnathan's death.

[LexLuv180]

You get the causality wrong. If Clark had been able to discuss this properly with his dad instead of hiding it from him, then this wouldn´t have happened. This indicates that his dad never was able to build a trusting relationship to his son. Otherwise Clark would have known that he could turn to him without just getting another self-righteous lecture.



I think they had a very trusting relationship, but at the time they were all so overcome with grief it fell apart. Happens with the best of families.

That said, I think Jonathan was an amazing father. What a strong man to endure all he had to and put his family first all the time. Yet I do think he was too harsh on the nicer version of Lex and too high on a pedestal, which even he himself had to admit to his senator friend later on down teh line. Still a great person and parent, but of course with flaws.

[dunkman]

When you stop & think about it, we don't know that Jonathan wouldn't have still died if Clark hadn't gone back in time to save Lana. (I mean, Jor-El's been dead for thousands of years & just saved his persona on a backup crystal - what does he know?) Jonathan's heart was already bad after he rescued Clark from his Red-K self, so in that sense his death was Clark's fault, but it didn't necessarily have anything to do with Clark saving Lana.

Clark's line about Jor-El, Jonathan, & Lionel all dying because of him was definitely preparing us for the "It's A Wonderful Life" story in "Apocalypse"!

[ClarkKent30]

Clark did not kill Jonathan Kent. Thats sort of absurd. Thats like saying every child that stresses their parents - who end up having a heart attack later in life are responsible for their death in some way. Jonathan knew what he was doing when he accepted the powers to harness Clarks red ring rampage. A moment in his life that could have potentially blown all of his cover and put him on the radar list of bad and good people alike.

Jonathan Kent died like a hero. A man who devoted his entire life to his son. To protect him and rear him like a real man. Helping him control his powers, as a human being trying to interact with an alien son who has the powers of mythical God- its truly an amazing effort.

In reality he looked to be in very good shape, Farm work kept him healthy. He wasnt a smoker or drinker. Plus he was tough as hell. One would imagine in order for someone to die from a heart attack at that age and in that condition, would have required incredible stress at some point in life.

I am suprised that Lionel didnt come clean with his attentions to protect Clark when they had that final confrontation. My guess is that they wrote in Lionels changes later on, because at the time- Lionel didnt seem to be to interested in helping Clark..controlling him more like it. This was pre-Jor El Lionel. That stress and fear of the confrontation, the reality of Clark being exposed brought on a panic- combine that with the stress of full blown fight.. his heart couldnt take anymore.

Clark has been dealing with the guilt of his fathers death, and his real fathers death his whole life. Plus those around him who have been hurt just because of their friendship with him, its completely unfair to blame it on Clark. Not reality at all.

[euterpe]

Clark is no more responsible for Jonathon's death than Lex was for Duncan's. Neither of them directly caused the deaths, but both Clark and Lex set into motion a chain of events that eventually led to JK's and Duncan's deaths. (Although, in Duncan's case, Oliver also bears responsibility.)

One could argue that JK and Duncan both are ultimately responsible for their own deaths because they made the decisions that led to those deaths. But what led them to make those decisions? Duncan would never have stepped backwards into that street if he had not already been rattled by the pummeling he had just received from Lex and JK would never have gone to Jor-El and accepted those powers if he had not been desparate to bring Clark back home. The difference is whereas Lex just snapped and spontaneously reacted to Duncan's perceived betrayel, Clark chose to put on that red-K ring and run away knowing exactly what affect it would have.

As humans, we interact with others everyday and the truth is we never know what kind of effect our actions will have on others. That is why it is so important to always live our lives ethically and honestly...something both Clark and Lex have failed to do consistantly.

As for Lex throwing that particular barb at Clark in this episode. Well, why not? Clark once threw a similar accusation at Lex back in season 2 when Lionel was shot. And that was when Clark was supposed to be Lex's "friend". Tit for Tat.

[sirconical]

Clark blames himself for EVERYTHING bad, that happens. Not sure why that accusation upset him, when he himself thought that.

I think it was just the timing of it. Lex had only just murdered his own Father, and then he had the audacity to accuse Clark of killing his own Father as well.

----- Added 8 Minutes later -----


By the way, don´t you find it a little bit over the top to bash a frightened 17-year old for making a wrong decision?

Even when that wrong decision caused the death of an unborn child, and almost the mother? No I don't think it's wrong to "bash" the 17 year old. It's called parenting, and if it wasn't done, Clark would not be the responsible young man he is. And I know not all of you feel he's responsible, but he is a lot more responsible than a lot of people out there in the world.

[LastSonKalEl]

I Have Proof

[C Redfield]

When you stop & think about it, we don't know that Jonathan wouldn't have still died if Clark hadn't gone back in time to save Lana. (I mean, Jor-El's been dead for thousands of years & just saved his persona on a backup crystal - what does he know?) Jonathan's heart was already bad after he rescued Clark from his Red-K self, so in that sense his death was Clark's fault, but it didn't necessarily have anything to do with Clark saving Lana.

Clark's line about Jor-El, Jonathan, & Lionel all dying because of him was definitely preparing us for the "It's A Wonderful Life" story in "Apocalypse"!

Jonathan stopped to comfort his Traumatized Son out of love. As opposed to blowwing his Heart out fighting Lionel. He would have lived.

And for the record Its Lanas fault. Clark could have made it to the fortress if he ran AFAP but he was more obsessed with grabbing Lana's hair than his destiny.

[shawn316]

It looks like many people missed the real meaning of the scene with Lex telling Clark that he(Clark) was responsible for Jonathan's death. Lex was really trying to push Clark's buttons(showing just how dark and evil he has become) but instead of reacting, Clark showed how his character has progressed and how he no longer beats himself up for his fathers death. His character is becoming much more "Supermanesck" and away from the teenage farmboy. Much like how Jor-el has tried to instill in him. It was a great display of good(Clark) vs. evil(Lex). Anyway, that what I took out of this scene...not "here's another example of Clark being responsible for his dad's death."

[lois_lane-kent]

Since when does time pass differently in the FoS? When has that ever been established on Smallville?
Has this not been said before on SV? I remember it specifically from "Persona," but Lana said it, so it could always be wrong.

[ginnyfan]

*to the tune of Crucify*

Just what Clark needs, one more guilt trip.

*gags*

[ClLaLeChFAN01]

I think in the back of Clarks mind he was hoping that Lex would die but it was Jonathan instead

[TheLeague]

i wouldnt say killed as such............. but id have to say there was a creepy alienated version of manslaughter involved in there somewhere :cool:

[smallvillerocks45]

Clark did not kill his father. Jonathan Kent is a mortal, he would have died anyway; his medial condition was too severe to handle too much physical strain. Clark reversing time only allowed it to happen sooner, but that was neither the intent nor purpose of changing time and as someone stated, that only happened because Jor-El took Clark's powers away in the first place. Look at it this way, Jonathan was on his way to confront Lionel Luthor, the only reason he did not get there was because Lana died. With Lana alive, however, Jonathan did not stop on his way to the farm, and instead fought with Lionel. It was Jonathan's heart that killed him, not Clark.

Lex, on the other hand pushed his father out of a window! On purpose! Lionel would have died anyway due to being a mortal too, but he was murdered. How is that even in the same league as what happened with Clark? It's not.

[Yasise]

I wouldn't say that Clark KILLED Johnathan. But his actions did indirectly cause Johnathan's death.

Yes, I'm afraid that's true and ...


........Clark's line about Jor-El, Jonathan, & Lionel all dying because of him was definitely preparing us for the "It's A Wonderful Life" story in "Apocalypse"!

....I'm afraid the writers think so, too. When you read, that in the alternate world of "Apocalypse" Jonathan will be shown as to be still alive, then there's no doubt, that Clark obviously is one reason that caused his father's death.
I hate that!
More guilty feelings for Clark, as if it wasn't enough already :( And this episode will just confirm that Smallville Clark is responsible in some way for what happened to Jonathan.

[dunkman]

Yes, I'm afraid that's true and ...



....I'm afraid the writers think so, too. When you read, that in the alternate world of "Apocalypse" Jonathan will be shown as to be still alive, then there's no doubt, that Clark obviously is one reason that caused his father's death.
I hate that!
More guilty feelings for Clark, as if it wasn't enough already :( And this episode will just confirm that Smallville Clark is responsible in some way for what happened to Jonathan.

But I think Clark will realize that even though Jonathan would've still been alive, a lot more people who are alive would've died, & the world would be much worse off without him. They should have Lana, Chloe, and/or Lois single & working in a library, but that might be too much like "It's a Wonderful Life"! Not that there's anything wrong with working in a library - that's my dream!

[Yasise]

But I think Clark will realize that even though Jonathan would've still been alive, a lot more people who are alive would've died, & the world would be much worse off without him. They should have Lana, Chloe, and/or Lois single & working in a library, but that might be too much like "It's a Wonderful Life"! Not that there's anything wrong with working in a library - that's my dream!

I'm not so sure if Clark is going to think so, too. I'm afraid, the first thing he'll think is "Wow, Dad's alive, so I WAS the reason for his death!" Smallville Clark will 100% think like that immediatly and I hate that. Poor Clark! That makes me sad, really.
Why do they have to put so much guilt on him? :(:(:(

[All about Clark]

It was actually Jonathan who made a decision that caused his failing heart. He took on powers in order to get Clark back. Jor-el knew Clark would come to him but elected to let Jonathan have powers. It really is all on Jonathan. He made a choose that he thought was best for Clark even though it would be his death sentence. Clark can not be blamed as he had no power to change Jonathan's mind. Once his heart was damaged it was only a matter of time.

Clark was right, 3 men acting in his behalf have volunteered their lives for him. That does not mean he killed them.

Lex's actions are not comparable to Clark's.

[jimmyolsenblues]

i don't believe clark killed john kent.

[Yasise]

It was actually Jonathan who made a decision that caused his failing heart. He took on powers in order to get Clark back. Jor-el knew Clark would come to him but elected to let Jonathan have powers. It really is all on Jonathan. He made a choose that he thought was best for Clark even though it would be his death sentence. Clark can not be blamed as he had no power to change Jonathan's mind. Once his heart was damaged it was only a matter of time.

Clark was right, 3 men acting in his behalf have volunteered their lives for him. That does not mean he killed them.

Lex's actions are not comparable to Clark's.

I agree with you, but some people would say, that Jonathan went to Jor-El because of Clark, because he wanted Clark back. So, if it wasn't for Clark and him running away and casuing so much trouble in Metropolis, Jonathan wouldn't have got those powers and his heart wouldn't have been damaged.
So again it turns out to be Clark's fault in the end :(

As to Jor-El's dead, I'm not sure, because Clark was a baby then and he didn't do anything which caused Jor-El's death or lead up to it. This baby didn't disobey anyone or did anything without thinking it through...he was just a cute little baby:)
Krypton was about to explode and his parents wanted him to be save - that's IMHO a totally different case.

Well, and Lionel....I'm not so sure either of his death. I don't think, that it was Clark's fault at all. I don't even understand till today, why Lionel has put him into that kryptonite cage and I'm afraid, we'll never get to know, now he's dead.

[dunkman]

I'm not so sure if Clark is going to think so, too. I'm afraid, the first thing he'll think is "Wow, Dad's alive, so I WAS the reason for his death!" Smallville Clark will 100% think like that immediatly and I hate that. Poor Clark! That makes me sad, really.
Why do they have to put so much guilt on him? :(:(:(

Yeah, I feel bad for Clark, too. I mean, the thing with his dad saving him from the Red K & thereafter having a bad heart kind of WAS Clark's fault, but everyone who knows about that has forgiven him, & he needs to forgive himself, too. I think when he confessed to Lana about when he stole the Lamborgini & robbed the ATMs was an indication that he's ready to do that. I think by the end of the episode Clark will have realized that the world is better off WITH him!
George Bailey lost that $8,000 because he let his incompetent uncle with short-term memory loss take it to the bank, but he later realized that he made a positive difference in Bedford Falls!

[Yasise]

Yeah, I feel bad for Clark, too. I mean, the thing with his dad saving him from the Red K & thereafter having a bad heart kind of WAS Clark's fault, but everyone who knows about that has forgiven him, & he needs to forgive himself, too. I think when he confessed to Lana about when he stole the Lamborgini & robbed the ATMs was an indication that he's ready to do that.

Yeah, maybe. I hope so.


I think by the end of the episode Clark will have realized that the world is better off WITH him.....

and let me finish this sentence of yours "....and that nothing comes without a sacrifice?"

A part of that sacrifice would be his father's death, then.


George Bailey lost that $8,000 because he let his incompetent uncle with short-term memory loss take it to the bank, but he later realized that he made a positive difference in Bedford Falls!

o.k. I don't know about that one, but I guess, I understand what you wanted to say with that.:)

[All about Clark]

I agree with you, but some people would say, that Jonathan went to Jor-El because of Clark, because he wanted Clark back. So, if it wasn't for Clark and him running away and casuing so much trouble in Metropolis, Jonathan wouldn't have got those powers and his heart wouldn't have been damaged.
So again it turns out to be Clark's fault in the end :(

As to Jor-El's dead, I'm not sure, because Clark was a baby then and he didn't do anything which caused Jor-El's death or lead up to it. This baby didn't disobey anyone or did anything without thinking it through...he was just a cute little baby:)
Krypton was about to explode and his parents wanted him to be save - that's IMHO a totally different case.

Well, and Lionel....I'm not so sure either of his death. I don't think, that it was Clark's fault at all. I don't even understand till today, why Lionel has put him into that kryptonite cage and I'm afraid, we'll never get to know, now he's dead.

Well I really feel that it's the act choosen makes the person responsible. Jonathan choose to get Clark back, he didn't have to. Jor-el would have seen to Clark, Jonathan didn't really have to. But it was Jonathan's love for Clark that made him make that decision.

As for Jor-el on Krypton, the same applies. Jor-el could have escaped with Lara and Raya to the PZ. But he didn't, it was his chose to send Clark off and to try to save the planet. Both fathers made a decision in Clark's behalf, that resulted in their deaths. That doesn't make Clark responsible, because it is the chose that is the deciding factor.

[dunkman]

When Clark made the comment about first Jor-El, then Jonathan, & now Lionel, I don't think in that moment he was necessarily feeling RESPONSIBLE for all their deaths, but just noticing the pattern that around him fathers keep dropping like flies! I think that will lead to a feeling of guilt later.

----- Added 3 Minutes later -----


Well I really feel that it's the act choosen makes the person responsible. Jonathan choose to get Clark back, he didn't have to. Jor-el would have seen to Clark, Jonathan didn't really have to. But it was Jonathan's love for Clark that made him make that decision.

As for Jor-el on Krypton, the same applies. Jor-el could have escaped with Lara and Raya to the PZ. But he didn't, it was his chose to send Clark off and to try to save the planet. Both fathers made a decision in Clark's behalf, that resulted in their deaths. That doesn't make Clark responsible, because it is the chose that is the deciding factor.

You're right about the person who made the choice being the one responsible for what happened next - well said! Lara never went to the Phantom Zone, though - she just had her DNA saved on the Blue Kryptonite thumbdrive.

[All about Clark]

Only Raya went to the PZ, but both Jor-el and Lara could have joined her, but neither would leave Krypton.

[Yasise]

Well I really feel that it's the act choosen makes the person responsible. Jonathan choose to get Clark back, he didn't have to. Jor-el would have seen to Clark, Jonathan didn't really have to. But it was Jonathan's love for Clark that made him make that decision.

As for Jor-el on Krypton, the same applies. Jor-el could have escaped with Lara and Raya to the PZ. But he didn't, it was his chose to send Clark off and to try to save the planet. Both fathers made a decision in Clark's behalf, that resulted in their deaths. That doesn't make Clark responsible, because it is the chose that is the deciding factor.

Sorry if you think I'm stubborn, but if Clark wouldn't have been there, Jonathan wouldn't have had the urge to make a choice.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to put the blame on Clark, but no matter how you explain it, it'll always turn out to be Clark's behaviour, which MADE Jonathan chose to go to Jor-El for help.

So, no Clark, no need for a choice for Jonathan - and that's what Clark is going to think, when he sees his father alive in "Apocalypse", I'm afraid.

As sad as it is, that's unfortunately the truth.

[smallvillerocks45]

For all we know, Jonathan Kent could still have a heart condition even without Clark ever being sent to Smallville... we just don't know. Clark may feel responsible insofar that his actions compelled Jonathan to take on powers that his body would not be able to handle, but Clark didn't kill him. I will never believe that he did.

[All about Clark]

Sorry if you think I'm stubborn, but if Clark wouldn't have been there, Jonathan wouldn't have had the urge to make a choice.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to put the blame on Clark, but no matter how you explain it, it'll always turn out to be Clark's behaviour, which MADE Jonathan chose to go to Jor-El for help.

So, no Clark, no need for a choice for Jonathan - and that's what Clark is going to think, when he sees his father alive in "Apocalypse", I'm afraid.

As sad as it is, that's unfortunately the truth.

It was about love and a certain amount of selfishness. Jonathan WANTED Clark back. That's why he made the decision to take on the powers. Jor-el had already indicated that Clark would be OK. But Jonathan knew Clark needed real people over an AI.

I agree 100% that had Clark not existed that Jonathan would be alive and well. But both Jonathan and Martha more than once expressed that one day with him was better than a 100 days without him. So Jonathan was at peace because he got to have Clark, and that price was a short life. He accepted those terms and Clark should too. It also shows Clark the depths of their love. As far as Clark, Jonathan and Martha are concerned, they wouldn't change a thing, they did get to have each other.

[Kevin24]

It was about love and a certain amount of selfishness. Jonathan WANTED Clark back. That's why he made the decision to take on the powers. Jor-el had already indicated that Clark would be OK. But Jonathan knew Clark needed real people over an AI.

I agree 100% that had Clark not existed that Jonathan would be alive and well. But both Jonathan and Martha more than once expressed that one day with him was better than a 100 days without him. So Jonathan was at peace because he got to have Clark, and that price was a short life. He accepted those terms and Clark should too. It also shows Clark the depths of their love. As far as Clark, Jonathan and Martha are concerned, they wouldn't change a thing, they did get to have each other.

That's beautiful:)


I do have a question though...Lex and Lana both received powers of a Kryptionian, why don't they have any health problems? Is it just age? Was Pa Kent just too old for the powers?

[All about Clark]

I do think his age was a factor. But I'm sure it wasn't the only factor. Lana didn't get all of Clark's power so maybe it was less harmful to her, we don't really know. We also don't really know if the powers given to Jonathan was the same as the ones given to Lex. I've actually thought that the length of time that individual has those powers could be a contributing factor. We also don't know if Jonathan was as healthy as he thought he was, so yes I think age played a factor, but not the only factor.

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----


That's beautiful:)

Thank you.

[Yasise]

It was about love and a certain amount of selfishness. Jonathan WANTED Clark back. That's why he made the decision to take on the powers. Jor-el had already indicated that Clark would be OK. But Jonathan knew Clark needed real people over an AI.

I agree 100% that had Clark not existed that Jonathan would be alive and well. But both Jonathan and Martha more than once expressed that one day with him was better than a 100 days without him. So Jonathan was at peace because he got to have Clark, and that price was a short life. He accepted those terms and Clark should too. It also shows Clark the depths of their love. As far as Clark, Jonathan and Martha are concerned, they wouldn't change a thing, they did get to have each other.


I totally understand you and I agree with all what you've said.

Of course Jonathan wanted Clark back, every father, who loves his child, would have done the same, for sure.
And yes, Jonathan accepted everything Jor-El wanted in return for those powers and in the end he died in peace, because he was convinced he did save Clark.
From Jonathan's and Martha's point of view, everything is o.k. and they never would have blamed Clark for Jonathan's heart problems. Every good parent would die for their children, if they had to, well at least IMO.
The problem is, that you don't have to convince me, about that but Clark :)

I'm afraid, he'll never forgive himself for his father's death, no matter what his parents thought or the other people around him in Smallville.

[Dor el]

I agree. Clark will carry that burden as long as he lives. Should be a very good grounding sort of thing. What could more sobering than to believe that you caused the death of your dad? Of course, a person's character determines how one reacts. Look at Lex. wonder if he will ever have any regrets about killing his dad, and his actions were far more direct than were Clark's. Clark didn't do anything intentionally to cause Jonathan's death. I firmly believe Clark misbehaved exemplified by his choosing badly, but it was Jonathan who decided that Clark's life was worth the risk. Even after Jonathan figured out that his health was the price for his saving Clark, I never detected on bit of regret or anger on the part of Jonathan or Martha. Lex planned and carried out Lionel's murder. More evidence of the stark difference between Clark and Lex and further explanation of why Clark is the good guy and Lex is the bad guy.

[Yasise]

I agree. Clark will carry that burden as long as he lives. Should be a very good grounding sort of thing. What could more sobering than to believe that you caused the death of your dad? Of course, a person's character determines how one reacts. Look at Lex. wonder if he will ever have any regrets about killing his dad, and his actions were far more direct than were Clark's. Clark didn't do anything intentionally to cause Jonathan's death. I firmly believe Clark misbehaved exemplified by his choosing badly, but it was Jonathan who decided that Clark's life was worth the risk. Even after Jonathan figured out that his health was the price for his saving Clark, I never detected on bit of regret or anger on the part of Jonathan or Martha. Lex planned and carried out Lionel's murder. More evidence of the stark difference between Clark and Lex and further explanation of why Clark is the good guy and Lex is the bad guy.

I agree, too :D

"I never detected on bit of regret or anger on the part of Jonathan or Martha"....yes, me neither and it didn't surprise me.

It's like: Where's light, there's shadow. So, where's love, there's always guilt or blame.

For example, parents love their children and always want the best for them. When they do something wrong, as a parent, you always blame yourself first, because you think, maybe I wasn't a good enough parent or maybe I didn't raise my child in a good way etc. etc.
You would never blame your child, because you would do anything for its wellbeing.

As the child you always try to do the best, so your parents can be proud of you and if they're not proud of you, you blame it on yourself, even if there's actually no reason for you to do so.
Or, if you've parents, who are sick, you're always blaming yourself, that you're not able to help them enough, to be around them enough etc. etc.
And if they die this whole "blaming yourself" gets even worse, especially when you think, you should have done this or that or should have said this or that to them when they were alive and you just didn't do or say whatever you've had in mind then.
I do know and understand so much, how Clark must feel about his father's death and I know, that he'll always feel guilty about that, no matter what.