Jasmine orchestrated all the major events of Angel: B.S. or not?

[Vergon6]

If you are to read descriptions of Jasmine and Season 4 of Angel on Wikipedia or the BuffyWiki, they seem to take it on faith that Jasmine orchestrated most, if not all, the major events of Angel.

I don't quite by that. I think like her minion, Skip, she is liar and many of the things she say can't be trusted. I always saw her as more of an opportunist. I don't believe she had to do with the Trials or Connor's birth or Doyle's death or Cordelia coming to LA or the events that lead up to Fred being stranded in a hell dimension or her subsequent return to LA with the gang.

This way I see things happened within the Angelverse:
Doyle dies giving Cordelia his visions, but not because of act by Jasmine, but by virtue of the good Powers. After some time, Jasmine sees opportunity, and arranges for Cordelia's visions to get much worse than she can ever handle, and much more so than they should have ever been, to the point where her new guide, conveniently Jasmine's minion, Skip manipulates her to come to the conclusion that she has to become half-demon.

After the events of Connor's birth and stint in a hell dimension, re-emerging as fully grown boy. Jasmine recognize as a unique individual, and bring Cordelia up to a higher plane to enable Jasmine to possess. Then arranging the events after that to setup a situation where Jasmine possessing Cordelia can seduce Connor, so it can give birth to itself. Most of that last part is confirmed on screen of course.

Oh another thing is that make it out like Jasmine is morally ambiguous, when she seems pretty evil to me. What she is morally ambiguous because she brings about 'world peace'? Meanwhile eating people, and enslaving everyone as people who will unquestioningly follow her will. Not exactly what you would call real world peace ;)

[Pesk]

I tink she was telling the truth about everything that involved her coming into being, eg manipulating the trail so darla's extra life would be conner, allowing a vampire to be pregnant. But as for other things like claiming to be responsible for cordy being in LA, that was crap made to make the gang trust her by making them think she's been with them this whole time like some weird guardian angel who knows whats best for them.

And it was it was more 'peaceful' for her to kill and eat people if it means millions didn't die. Though I don't see how she would have been able to get away with it in the long term- after a few months of eating 10 poeple a day, people will surely start to notice their friends and family are going missing. As soon as she's uncovered as a cannibal by the public they would have had to have snapped out of it, and fought back.

[Fat Elvis 007]

I think she was telling the truth about being responsible for Connor's birth because, how else could that have happened? I like the explanation that Jasmine was responsible more than no explanation at all. But the rest, yeah, I'm not so willing to believe she was responsible for everything.

[Vergon6]

I think she was telling the truth about being responsible for Connor's birth because, how else could that have happened? I like the explanation that Jasmine was responsible more than no explanation at all. But the rest, yeah, I'm not so willing to believe she was responsible for everything.
She made it out like he was especially created so he could impregnate Cordelia, and Jasmine could give birth to herself. Yet we know that he had a greater destiny than this, part of which was to kill Sahjan (who seems to not have many friends on either the side of good or evil). If it wasn't for Sahjan moving back and forth threw time to change the prophecy to 'the father will kill the son' and bringing about Holtz resurrection. Connor would have grown up at a normal pace, would have never grown up in a hell dimension, and would never have been at the right place to be seduced by a possessed Cordelia.

[Hopefulsuicide]

well then i guess Jasmine made Sahjan do all of that as well :lol:

i just don't buy that everything was forced and planned... i think she had a hand in things, as people have said, but nothing is set in stone... there are things that even she couldn't have controlled or predicted

it really cheapens things to think otherwise. i mean Doyle giving Cordy the visions was a mark of his love... if that was all orchestrated then it's like saying the characters didnt even have free will on who they loved

and for that matter, how about Darla and Angel having sex in the first place... well they wouldn't have done that if they hadn't had such a big history together, so did Jasmine make Darla turn Angel? did she make the master turn Darla too?

there has to be a line drawn

Jasmine was full of it, and liked to think of herself as a brilliant god, but as we could see from her other world, she was pretty bad at her 'god' role. she even seemed to have convinced herself that what she was doing was a good thing, so i think her dellusions could extent to thinking she is responsible for everything that happened to bring her to this point, when in actual fact she was just lucky

[Vergon6]

well then i guess Jasmine made Sahjan do all of that as well :lol:

i just don't buy that everything was forced and planned... i think she had a hand in things, as people have said, but nothing is set in stone... there are things that even she couldn't have controlled or predicted

it really cheapens things to think otherwise. i mean Doyle giving Cordy the visions was a mark of his love... if that was all orchestrated then it's like saying the characters didnt even have free will on who they loved

and for that matter, how about Darla and Angel having sex in the first place... well they wouldn't have done that if they hadn't had such a big history together, so did Jasmine make Darla turn Angel? did she make the master turn Darla too?

there has to be a line drawn

Jasmine was full of it, and liked to think of herself as a brilliant god, but as we could see from her other world, she was pretty bad at her 'god' role. she even seemed to have convinced herself that what she was doing was a good thing, so i think her dellusions could extent to thinking she is responsible for everything that happened to bring her to this point, when in actual fact she was just lucky
I agree. There has to be a point where the actually good Powers, who are only seemed to intervene when they felt it necessary actually influenced things, rather than it just being all Jasmine. Plus there is a little thing called free will. Was it her that made Wolfram & Hart resurrect Darla as well? Come on.

I wonder what Joss and the writers consider was Jasmine's influence on the situation in actuality. I would really would like to know.

[Hopefulsuicide]

yeah me too... but then my faith in Joss' good sense has wavered since reading the Buffy and Angel comics... i want to pretend they aren't cannon... but they are :(

[TMLS]

If that's what the writers wrote, and they never contradicted it, then of course it's "true". As true as something written as fiction could be, of course.

[Hopefulsuicide]

yes but the writers also wrote the characters who said it as lying BSing manipulators... so the suggesting it's BS is plausible

[InactiveUserID]

Remember your sticky hot prophecy, people.

The Trochlon [troaklon] was long fortold as a series of events that would dance us into an apocalypse and in which Angel would play a swing role.

I took that to include all the manipulation Angel's crew suffered, with the infiltration of Cordy's holy hotline, Conner's birth and special nature as the Destroyer, the seducing of him to serve as the father of the Devourer. And Sahjon. Sahjon didn't have to be "in on it." They all just played the predestined roles the prophecy predicted so that Jasmine could enter the world. ----> This includes Jasmine herself--she was just playing her role in events. Sure, she was responsible for much of the deception that brought about her arrival on earth. She was the most aware of the bunch, but she wasn't all-knowing. So in a way she like the rest of them was "just doing her thing" and was a victim of history in the end just like anybody else. She wasn't pulling ALL the strings; she was an opportunist who made her own luck for the most part. "God helps gods who help themselves." Or in this case "The early god gets the world."

So both things are true: 1) she took advantage of the vampire birth of Conner, and 2) history had always intended for her to do so.

I liked what the show did with her. I think she really was altruistic. A "good guy." She just wasn't a good e-harmony match for humanity. She was going to make us follow the rules and clean our room and play nice with each other as a species in a way that a real parent would--since our own Gods have proven delinquent she was going to pick up the slack and mend our broken world. In an appalling way. Using alien methods. But deeply effective methods. Think about it hard. It was Nirvana she offered. That part wasn't a lie. It may have been a drugged state so she could feed, but that kind of harsh reality has always been the way of things. Society has always made trade-offs like that to better our lives. How many traffic deaths do we allow every year without ever crying out "Cars and Freeways are Evil and the system MUST be changed!!!!! " Something like 50,000 every year? Jasmine's appetite was a drop in the bucket. She would have caused perhaps the same amount of deaths, but she would have virtually ENDED traffic fatalities since motorists would all be aware of each other and they'd become excellent defensive drivers. That's just one example. Our world would have come out way way ahead. Well, her world would have. It would have been her world. Our destiny no longer ours to complete. But is it worth it to be "free" again? Free to experience all our pains and horrors again. It's a huge question mark. A moral dilemma the size of Octomom's belly. (I think Jasmine would have liked Octomom.)

[Vergon6]

An interesting take on things. I see what you are saying. But I simply can't see her being altruistic. She repeatedly demanded the people worship her. She was a megalomaniac, and look at all she did to ensure her birth. Someone who has the Beast as a servant, who brings about permanent darkness and a reign of fire is not a good guy. Someone who pulls the strings so the gang brings back Angelus, who steals his soul so they can't put back, again not a good guy. Lilah wasn't a good guy, but I don't think Jasmine was being a good guy buy stabbing her in the neck and "You b*tch, why do you think I let him out" after Lilah says that Angelus is going to "kill them all"

[InactiveUserID]

Sure, I overlooked some of that. If we are what we do, then Jasmine was willing to do whatever evils. So she's not a white hat. And she seems to tire of worlds and leave them in not the best shape. So, good lookin' out, Angel! Though notice how the devil we know, Wolfram, wasn't too pleased that our world was host to Jasmine. As if they saw in her something apart from evil's usual design. She was going to change the game and not play by evil's rules. She was a blending of Christ & Satan, using both good & evil as tools. A new order. Maybe the first real interruption in Wolfram's eternal plan. Which led them to put Angel in charge of the L.A. branch as a reward, which allowed the sniping of the Black Thorne. Which may all be part of the trochlon as far as we know. So Jasmine was a source of deep ambivalence even for the other evil powers.

[Hopefulsuicide]

Though notice how the devil we know, Wolfram, wasn't too pleased that our world was host to Jasmine. As if they saw in her something apart from evil's usual design. She was going to change the game and not play by evil's rules. She was a blending of Christ & Satan, using both good & evil as tools. A new order. Maybe the first real interruption in Wolfram's eternal plan. Which led them to put Angel in charge of the L.A. branch as a reward, which allowed the sniping of the Black Thorne. Which may all be part of the trochlon as far as we know. So Jasmine was a source of deep ambivalence even for the other evil powers.

EVERYTHING Jasmine did was evil. There may have been happy consequences like 'peace' but that was not her primary intention.

Things she did:

1. Manipulated situations in a way that ruined all the gangs lives
2. Killed Cordelia
3. Used mind control to have everyone on earth worship her, be devoted to her
4. Ate people
5. Gave a few speeches that indulged her in her fantasy that she was 'loved' and not actually facing that fact that it was all fake... no one actually loved her

None of that is in any way good. World peace was just this sort of after effect of everyone being forced to be devoted to the exact same thing.

I can totally see why Wolfram and Hart were pissed off. 1) all the members were probably just as affected and didn't like being forced to love a demon that was not affiliated with Wolfram and Hart, and 2) They were basically loosing to the competition, they have they own game plan and she was screwing it up. It wasn't good winning over evil. It was evil winning over evil.

[Vergon6]

EVERYTHING Jasmine did was evil. There may have been happy consequences like 'peace' but that was not her primary intention.

Things she did:

1. Manipulated situations in a way that ruined all the gangs lives
2. Killed Cordelia
3. Used mind control to have everyone on earth worship her, be devoted to her
4. Ate people
5. Gave a few speeches that indulged her in her fantasy that she was 'loved' and not actually facing that fact that it was all fake... no one actually loved her

None of that is in any way good. World peace was just this sort of after effect of everyone being forced to be devoted to the exact same thing.

I can totally see why Wolfram and Hart were pissed off. 1) all the members were probably just as affected and didn't like being forced to love a demon that was not affiliated with Wolfram and Hart, and 2) They were basically loosing to the competition, they have they own game plan and she was screwing it up. It wasn't good winning over evil. It was evil winning over evil.
Well said :).

[InactiveUserID]

Holland Manners told us we're evil too. Not of any consequence, except as fodder for the larger players. Ants in the sandbox, who usaully only get devastated by the giants playing on the swings. As by disease and murder. Which only take. And do not shield us nor take up our cause. Yet so insidious is evil that it also sometimes condescends to give us something we want or need in order to thrive at our expense. You see Jasmine as this two sided coin, while neglecting to inspect the other upside of the coin to see the gold there and feel the heft of its lopsided weight--she gave back more than she "should have" by the standard definition of evil on the show and in life. So it is with the gas and electric companies. Always billing us. Evil. Yet, somehow, buried within their profit taking, are good intentions. And in the deep of winter or at the height of summer heat, we're glad to have them on our side. Jazz was a being so ancient and large in its potential swath that evil and good wouldn't be reliable labels in defining her. If you tried to label a sack "EVIL" and then pull it over her head, it wouldn't fit because her other facets (or tentacles) would still be spilling out to prove otherwise. If you didn't see this side of Gina's performance, go back to her argue-fight with Angel on the freeway overpass after she was "undone." She was torn, partly because she'd been trying to enact something on earth that mattered more to her than merely feeding. She believed herself a positive influence. The stats society uses to track how well we're doing against chaos would have backed her up--crime, mortality rates, contentment, etc. Was she only deluding herself to excuse her from any guilt over her appetites? Well, how much effort does the average person put into excusing himself for eating the delicious steak that's been set on his plate? Are you not evil from the point of view of the snails you crunch underfoot when you go out into the yard after dark to turn off the sprinklers and in the process you step on a snail, and then as you shuffle away in disgust you hear another crunch? Would the snails not mark that out as a pattern of intentional homicide, attributing to you great evil and intent? The "evidence" of your malice would be quite apparent to them. Yet you would have the audacity to dispute their charges and insist that you've put much effort into caring for the lawn and the rose bushes and have thereby greatly enriched the lives of the indignant little bugs. The Devourer used to box with other old ones, so she's going to be grrrrr. People are going to frizzle fry when they come in contact with her, just as we bake when the earth tilts us too directly into the sun's rays. I see her more as a natural disaster with a mind than as a true devil.

[Fat Elvis 007]

Holland Manners told us we're evil too. Not of any consequence, except as fodder for the larger players. Ants in the sandbox, who usaully only get devastated by the giants playing on the swings. As by disease and murder. Which only take. And do not shield us nor take up our cause. Yet so insidious is evil that it also sometimes condescends to give us something we want or need in order to thrive at our expense. You see Jasmine as this two sided coin, while neglecting to inspect the other upside of the coin to see the gold there and feel the heft of its lopsided weight--she gave back more than she "should have" by the standard definition of evil on the show and in life. So it is with the gas and electric companies. Always billing us. Evil. Yet, somehow, buried within their profit taking, are good intentions. And in the deep of winter or at the height of summer heat, we're glad to have them on our side. Jazz was a being so ancient and large in its potential swath that evil and good wouldn't be reliable labels in defining her. If you tried to label a sack "EVIL" and then pull it over her head, it wouldn't fit because her other facets (or tentacles) would still be spilling out to prove otherwise. If you didn't see this side of Gina's performance, go back to her argue-fight with Angel on the freeway overpass after she was "undone." She was torn, partly because she'd been trying to enact something on earth that mattered more to her than merely feeding. She believed herself a positive influence. The stats society uses to track how well we're doing against chaos would have backed her up--crime, mortality rates, contentment, etc. Was she only deluding herself to excuse her from any guilt over her appetites? Well, how much effort does the average person put into excusing himself for eating the delicious steak that's been set on his plate? Are you not evil from the point of view of the snails you crunch underfoot when you go out into the yard after dark to turn off the sprinklers and in the process you step on a snail, and then as you shuffle away in disgust you hear another crunch? Would the snails not mark that out as a pattern of intentional homicide, attributing to you great evil and intent? The "evidence" of your malice would be quite apparent to them. Yet you would have the audacity to dispute their charges and insist that you've put much effort into caring for the lawn and the rose bushes and have thereby greatly enriched the lives of the indignant little bugs. The Devourer used to box with other old ones, so she's going to be grrrrr. People are going to frizzle fry when they come in contact with her, just as we bake when the earth tilts us too directly into the sun's rays. I see her more as a natural disaster with a mind than as a true devil.

InactiveUserID, first I want to say that your posts have been a delight to read. I love your style.

Secondly, I pretty much agree with you. I think Jasmine did have some noble intent, despite her horrific actions. I was always under the impression that she got tired of the other Powers That Be and their laizzes-faire, non-interference attitude towards the world. (Did the show explicitly say this, or am I imagining?) She truly wanted to make things better, and that's why she orchestrated the events that would bring her to earth and establish world peace. That's what makes her one of my favorite Jossverse villains. Like Holtz and The Operative, Jasmine believed that what she was doing was right, but did horrible, unconscionable things to advance her cause. Of course, also like them, she loved the sound of her own voice and had an ego the size of Texas. That's what makes them so complex. They really are both good and evil. But ultimately, the ends don't justify the means. JMO.

[LJ-90]

She made it out like he was especially created so he could impregnate Cordelia, and Jasmine could give birth to herself. Yet we know that he had a greater destiny than this, part of which was to kill Sahjan (who seems to not have many friends on either the side of good or evil). If it wasn't for Sahjan moving back and forth threw time to change the prophecy to 'the father will kill the son' and bringing about Holtz resurrection. Connor would have grown up at a normal pace, would have never grown up in a hell dimension, and would never have been at the right place to be seduced by a possessed Cordelia.

I think she had something to do with some events...but not all of them.

So she was responsable for Doyle's death? 'Kay...let's go and kill her Connor style!

Wait...

Nevermind.

[Hopefulsuicide]

The Devourer used to box with other old ones, so she's going to be grrrrr. People are going to frizzle fry when they come in contact with her, just as we bake when the earth tilts us too directly into the sun's rays. I see her more as a natural disaster with a mind than as a true devil.

Jasmine wasn't a natural disaster. She's more like the worlds biggest, most selfish and arrogant control freak.

What she wanted was a world full of people who would do anything she wanted. Everything would be her way. The ultimate ruler of everything. And as a bonus, people would willingly undress themselves and get ready to be her afternoon snack.

In an even more strange psychological twist, she did seem to have some sick, almost celebrity like need, to be loved by people. To be adored. She was so devastated when they no longer loved her, that i truly think she was simply a delluded and very sad being.
Just like Connor, she was much happier with lies and falsities than with the reality she had come to know in her many many years of life.

It's child like. And just like a spoiled child, when she couldn't have what she wanted she had a tantrum and started to throw things about. She had no regard for anyone's life, she just wanted a perfect one of her own.

But it was her idea of perfect. No one elses. Think about it. She might have had the power to rid the world of all the music she didnt fancy. If she'd been a Cher fan we might have all been forced to love Cher music... now i don't know about you, but that doesn't sound like world peace to me... it sounds like Hell!

It is my personal opinion, that there has to be a balance. Just like Holland said, evil and good work together, and while one is always trying to out do the other there can never truly be a winner.

Anything that looks like 'world peace' is IMO completely unnatural. Peace is not something humans can achieve unless they are devoid of our own personalities like Jasmine made us.

Perhaps it would be helpful if you looked back at that last scene when Jasmines true face had been revealed and she and Angel discussed what she had been trying to do. Because I think what Angel said summed it up pretty well.

JASMINE
No. No, Angel. There are no absolutes. No right and wrong. Haven't you learned anything working for the Powers? There are only choices. I offered paradise. You chose this!

ANGEL
Because I could. Because that's what you took away from us. Choice.

JASMINE
And look what free will has gotten you.

ANGEL
Hey, I didn't say we were smart. I said it's our right. It's what makes us human.

---

ANGEL
Thousands of people are dead because of what you've done.

JASMINE
(walks up to Angel) And how many will die because of you? I could've stopped it, Angel. All of it. War, disease, poverty. How many precious, beautiful lives would've been saved in a handful of years? Yes, I murdered thousands to save billions. (walks to the edge of the bridge) This world is doomed to drown in its own blood now.

ANGEL
The price was too high, Jasmine. Our fate has to be our own, or we're nothing.

Also want to add, that I think the main reason that some people don't except that Jasmine was that much of a villain, is because it's hard to connect all the things the possessed Cordelia did with Jasmine. But all of it was her. And it was not only evil, but incredibly creepy disturbing evil...

[InactiveUserID]

Hi and thanks for trying to help me.
Most of the time, when supermarket employees ask do I need any help I respond Thank you, but no, I think I'm beyond help.


Yeah that's the same conversation you quoted. In it is the case for Jasmine. It's a far better ride with her than without. Personality is us striving for bliss; we wouldn't miss personality so much if we could just skip ahead to the end and have bliss. To skip steps like that is cheating, of course, and a betrayal of our mythic journey through life (i.e. The journey is what matters, not the destination). Heroes like Angel would be quickest to notice such a change in the world. But the rest of us are on Twitter and Hulu and not using our wills to affect change anyway. Free will, the "benefit" Angel left us with after season 4, is something we're allowing to atrophy away unused, except when we use it to find new ways for each new generation to further undermine society's foundations. Those are the freedoms we tend to fight for nowadays. The right to free stuff. The right to foster chaos in this way or that. Free music and movies ended several industries. The internet is closer to pure evil than Jasmine in terms of its killing effect on various economic sectors, ending our identity as a culture while everyone catalogues every moment of the decline on their blogs. Yet it goes without saying that the internet is the one thing we're determined to stick with. If it kills everything else, all that means is it was simply everything else's time to die. No need to re-evaluate the internet. No, never. (Our addiction to "freedom" now trumps our free will. Angel would free us of the net.)

Or we fight for the right to put our lives further into the government's hands, slaved to handouts and constant scrutiny. Proudly fighting for the right to give away our free will piece by piece. Much as people gave themselves over to Jasmine to be taken care of. So the people Angel saved from Jasmine's grasp suffered a profound step down in their standard of living, because Jasmine was doing a much more bang up job than the government is capable of doing. San Francisco has been proving for some time now that it can't deliver a utopia on this earth. Jasmine could.

She had that nasty side. Her celebrity-like need for attention and her way of throwing a childish fit when things didn't go her way descibe Jehovah to a tee. Another power with a nasty side. Also a mass murderer.

(After finishing up doing PR work for Jasmine I think I'll give my business card to Andy Dick and that Girls Gone Wild founder.)

[Syn]

Jeez, thanks for putting a huge ass spoiler in the bloody title!