Possible Retcon?

[xrayvision]

I'm not sure, but I just didn't get the vibe that Lionel was going to Smallville to buy the Ross' creamed corn factory. It seemed like they're changing it so that he went there expecting to find the traveler/Clark or perhaps he went there with some knowledge that Virgil Swann might be there as well so he could take his key.

What I wonder is if it will be revealed that he knew that Smallville is where the traveler would land and his plan to buy the creamed corn factory was so he could develop the weapon (based on the secret in the Zurich bank) to control Clark. But I'm thinking that would mean he would have to know about the Kawatche paintings, which in retrospect of season 2 episodes, he didn't.

Or it could be that Lionel has patience and was just going there to make a business deal. But would he really go to a small town like Smallville just like that to start a business? I mean, he had know idea until after the meteor shower that kryptonite would show up and lead to his Level 3 experiments.

Also, why bother with Level 3 when he knew how to control the traveler? I thought it was explained in Justice & Doom (or one of those side projects) that Level 3 was a way to protect humans from the traveler? Why didn't he kill Swann all those years and take his key? Why did he wait until the period of when Sacred took place?

I'm not convinced that Lionel killed Swann. I think Edward Teague started getting restless and killed Swann looking for the key (not knowing his daughter had it) and was ready to go after Lionel and Lionel killed Teague first. I think the 3 Teagues were out for not only the stones but the keys to controlling the traveler as well.

[jimmyolsenblues]

i think you are right there will be a lot of Retroactive continuity editing done with Veritas.
I like it , I hope we get a lot of plot out of the veritas society and how we knew about krypton long ago.

[Timester]

It's simple, the real danger wasn't the Traveller, but is still to come. Everything is tying up now, Clark was sent to Earth for a purpose and know we are finally getting a hint of that purpose. Jor-El and Veritas group know about it, most likely it is the big danger Lionel warned Chloe about.

[xrayvision]

I'm not sure Clark was sent to Earth to battle the danger that Lionel knows about. To me, he was sent to Earth primarily to save him from Krypton's fate and secondarily to protect Earth in general. I think if Jor-El knew of an evil that could destroy Earth, he would have moved his entire family to Earth and face the evil himself than risk sending Clark when he had no idea how Clark would turn out. I also think Jor-El would go to "ruthless mode" as he did when he wanted Clark to get the stones if he knew of a huge threat to Earth.

[Timester]

I also think Jor-El would go to "ruthless mode" as he did when he wanted Clark to get the stones if he knew of a huge threat to Earth.

The thing is he did. Twice.

We also have to understand that AlMiles don't plan these things, they make them up as the story goes. They might have a plan, but the details are only set by the time they need to implement the plan.

[xrayvision]

I know, but both times (Exodus & Covenant) were to get him to find the stones so that the FOS could be created & he could be trained. The former happened but the latter never did. I would think Jor-El would try forcing him again (though it's not what I want to happen).

Also, his reasons in the past seemed like the threat he wanted Clark to beat was Brainiac so that Zod would not return. It doesn't look like Zod is what Brainiac's plan is centered around this time.

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----

I also noticed how Lionel never took the newspaper with him in the flashback. I'm guessing the newspaper that Lionel read in the helicopter was a different copy since it was probably destroyed with the helicopter in the meteor shower, which means Lex wouldn't have it to this day.

[Timester]

I know, but both times (Exodus & Covenant) were to get him to find the stones so that the FOS could be created & he could be trained. The former happened but the latter never did. I would think Jor-El would try forcing him again (though it's not what I want to happen).

Also, his reasons in the past seemed like the threat he wanted Clark to beat was Brainiac so that Zod would not return. It doesn't look like Zod is what Brainiac's plan is centered around this time.

Then it's three times, because I meant also the punishment part, where Jor-El had him frozen in the FOS.


I also noticed how Lionel never took the newspaper with him in the flashback. I'm guessing the newspaper that Lionel read in the helicopter was a different copy since it was probably destroyed with the helicopter in the meteor shower, which means Lex wouldn't have it to this day.

That's one example of how the details aren't planned at all. Because what if they got Bruce like they wanted, instead of Oliver? The Waynes would took the Queens part of Veritas and that newspaper would meant nothing.

[curiosity]

Lionel insisting that the Traveler is no use to any of them unless they could control him is pretty evil. But then he claims he was changed by Jor El. So maybe this is why Jor El chose him. He was a huge threat to Clark adn Jor El turned that around.

But if Jor El could posses Lionel the same way Brianiac has done Lana, couldn't Jor El fix Lana?

Brianiac said it couldn't be undone by any human means.

[erikamichelle614]

you know what? i think buying into smallville was part of his big plan to be near the traveler, aka clark. remember how important it was to him? he had asked jonathan to convince the ross' and threatened with clark's adoption, or maybe that was just lionel being an ass.

[lastdaughterofkrypton]

Also on the trailer for Descent Lex said that it wasn't an accident that they were both there at the meteor shower place. I think he knew that TheTraveler was going to land on SV and wanted Lex there too. I do wonder if he had any other motive for exposing his son to such a danger. I hope he gets to explain it before he dies or maybe that he leaves some sort of tape or documents where he explains it all.

[Nataku]

Also, why bother with Level 3 when he knew how to control the traveler? I thought it was explained in Justice & Doom (or one of those side projects) that Level 3 was a way to protect humans from the traveler? Why didn't he kill Swann all those years and take his key? Why did he wait until the period of when Sacred took place.

I always thought Lionel's Level Three experiments were about his desperate attempt to find a cure for his terminal liver disease. I mean, think about it… the whole cloning projects with Emily and the using of Clark’s blood to revive the dead with a rare liver disease (Adam Knight). When Lex took Level Three over and turned it into his 33.1 experiments. Then it became projects using meteor freaks to create a super powered army.

[xrayvision]

you know what? i think buying into smallville was part of his big plan to be near the traveler, aka clark. remember how important it was to him? he had asked jonathan to convince the ross' and threatened with clark's adoption, or maybe that was just lionel being an ass.

I'm not totally sure. They would have to explain how he knew that the traveler would land in Smallville. I'm not even sure the Kawatche cave paintings proved that to the Kawatche. The paintings proved to them that Naman would show up, but they didn't tell the Kawatche where his landing point would be.

Also, Lionel was shown to be ignorant in some ways in season 1. He was not at all up to date on the events taking place as Lex was. It wasn't until Duplicity that he got convinced that something was happening in Smallville and whatever it was is what Lex was spending all that money on that he sent Dominic to track. In Duplicity, he needed quite a bit of convincing from Dr. Hamilton that what he had in his shed was a ship. If this Veritas thing was planned from day 1 (which it obviously wasn't), then he wouldn't put up as much resistance to such a claim. On top of this, his interest in the caves in season 3 wasn't anything about controlling the traveler, but instead to find a way to save his own life from the liver disease he had.

The biggest thing that doesn't make sense is why wait until season 4 (Sacred) to kill Virgil Swann? Why not waste him when he was the evil MB of season 3. The flashback in Veritas showed that he knew Swann had the other key to the Zurich bank safe deposit box from before the meteor shower. Why make a deal with him as he did in Legacy when he could have wasted him and taken the key, so he could control the traveler and force him to save his (Lionel's) life from that liver disease?

I like tying a story together even if things happen later on that TPTB never originally planned, but not when they retcon it and cause conflicts with previously established events. I'm concerned that they're going to destroy the great writing of the early seasons of the show.

----- Added 3 Minutes later -----


I always thought Lionel's Level Three experiments were about his desperate attempt to find a cure for his terminal liver disease. I mean, think about it… the whole cloning projects with Emily and the using of Clark’s blood to revive the dead with a rare liver disease (Adam Knight). When Lex took Level Three over and turned it into his 33.1 experiments. Then it became projects using meteor freaks to create a super powered army.

I doubt he had the liver disease for that long. Adam Knight had the same disease and died way before he reached Lionel's age (as Chad Nash before Lionel brought him back using Clark's blood). I think if Lionel had the disease from back when he started Level 3, he would have been dead long ago.

[MozartRequiem]

"I doubt he had the liver disease for that long. Adam Knight had the same disease and died way before he reached Lionel's age (as Chad Nash before Lionel brought him back using Clark's blood). I think if Lionel had the disease from back when he started Level 3, he would have been dead long ago."

I can totally see where you're coming from, but I think he did in fact have the disease that long, and was just a strong survivor. Remember in "Covenant" when he said, "Two years ago,I was diagnosed with an extremely unique liver disease...I've tried everything, everything imaginable, but there's nothing. No amount of money can save me."

[Nataku]

I can totally see where you're coming from, but I think he did in fact have the disease that long, and was just a strong survivor. Remember in "Covenant" when he said, "Two years ago,I was diagnosed with an extremely unique liver disease...I've tried everything, everything imaginable, but there's nothing. No amount of money can save me."

I was just going to mention that. Lionel did in fact have the liver disease in season one. "I've tried everything, everything imaginable". Like doing experiments about cloning and reviving the dead, especially reviving someone back from the dead that had the same fatal illness that you have. Why would the writers put in that Adam Knight had a liver disease like Lionel, and Lionel was behind using Clark's blood to resurrect him? Why would he care about cloning dead people? Put two and two together, Level Three might have started for a different reason, but one of the main reasons was for Lionel to escape death.

[6-Super-Man -5]

It's simple, the real danger wasn't the Traveller, but is still to come. Everything is tying up now, Clark was sent to Earth for a purpose and know we are finally getting a hint of that purpose. Jor-El and Veritas group know about it, most likely it is the big danger Lionel warned Chloe about.

I agree with that, wonder what the real danger is though.

[xrayvision]

I was just going to mention that. Lionel did in fact have the liver disease in season one. "I've tried everything, everything imaginable". Like doing experiments about cloning and reviving the dead, especially reviving someone back from the dead that had the same fatal illness that you have. Why would the writers put in that Adam Knight had a liver disease like Lionel, and Lionel was behind using Clark's blood to resurrect him? Why would he care about cloning dead people? Put two and two together, Level Three might have started for a different reason, but one of the main reasons was for Lionel to escape death.

I forgot about that line. It makes sense. It seems like Lionel was distracted with the liver disease in season 1 (when he would have found out about it). It's logical too that someone when first learning of a fatal disease would be distracted. Over time, he discovered Clark but didn't want to come on too strong because he had a feeling Clark and the caves held the answers to saving his life. It's funny, but that liver disease changed his thought process from originally thinking the traveler was a threat to thinking of him as a means of salvation.

[xrayvision]

I agree with that, wonder what the real danger is though.

I wouldn't be surprised if it's Darkseid. I am very much against Darkseid ever being on this show. I don't want the watered down version of Darkseid that I hear has appeared in the recent comics. I want the bad-ass, incredibly powerful Darkseid in the comics I loved reading---and there's no way a team of Clark, Kara, and all the other good Kryptonians on Earth combined would be able to defeat the classic Darkseid.

[LexLuv180]

I so don't want Darkseid either. :(

[smallvillelogan]

I've only read a handful of comics: Man of Steel mini-series in 1986, Action comics #500, Death and Life of Superman in 1993, the first issues from the late 30s and 40s, some favorites from the 50s, 60s and 80s, the "Superman vs. Lex Luthor" compilation of 12 of their great face-offs, as well as a recent graphic novel that came out like last year or in '06. What I'm saying is that I have never read a comic about Darkseid; I've only read about who he is in Superman: The Ultimate Guide to the Man of Steel, the DK book. So luckily for me, if he is indeed the danger to come to Earth, I won't have an understanding of how powerful he has been since he was conceived in the early 70's. That should do me a service if he is indeed to face off with Clark later this season.

----- Added 2 Minutes later -----


It's funny, but that liver disease changed his thought process from originally thinking the traveler was a threat to thinking of him as a means of salvation.

Well, perhaps that and also becoming Jor-El's emissary made him realize that the Traveler, who he knew was Clark at that point, was sent to Earth to save it, rather than to conquer it.

[xrayvision]

Let's just say it would be like Clark fighting a god or a cosmic being. If he couldn't avoid the tazers in Traveler, there's no way that he would ever avoid the Omega Effect.

[Timester]

I always thought Lionel's Level Three experiments were about his desperate attempt to find a cure for his terminal liver disease. I mean, think about it… the whole cloning projects with Emily and the using of Clark’s blood to revive the dead with a rare liver disease (Adam Knight). When Lex took Level Three over and turned it into his 33.1 experiments. Then it became projects using meteor freaks to create a super powered army.

Level 3 was originally Queen's project (although it was a weapons division). It's part of the Justice & Doom game.

[xrayvision]

Hmm, you have a point Timester. I never saw Justice & Doom, but if you saw it, then you must be correct. I think there's a difference between the experiments done with Clark's blood in season 3 and Level 3, which was about kryptonite experiments. The cloning was definitely Level 3 experiments, but what was it for? I don't think it was to cure Lionel, but to perhaps create a Julian clone like Lex. Lex did point out in Persona that he succeeded to do what Lionel failed.

Another good example is Levitas. The Levitas gas was made to extract the truth from someone. Maybe Lionel wanted to use Levitas to find out where Swann hid the Veritas key.

We also knew he was using Level 3 to make kryptonite to spray on crops in Jitters. My guess is that the kryptonite used on the crops was actually step 1 in Lionel's cloning experiments where he tested the kryptonite on crops before using it on humans.

----- Added 4 Minutes later -----

I think they have to somehow link whatever it is in the vault/deposit box in Zurich to the following:

1. Why Lionel & Virgil Swann did not recognize each other when they were first shown to meet in Legacy

2. Why Lionel didn't try to kill Virgil Swann for the key for all those years

3. How Virgil Swann got the octagonal key at the end of Legacy

I think these things can all be linked if it is done properly. And I have a good idea of how they can do that.

[Spirit Detective]

Another good example is Levitas. The Levitas gas was made to extract the truth from someone. Maybe Lionel wanted to use Levitas to find out where Swann hid the Veritas key.

I like this theory. It ties up more loose ends with Lionel's projects.

[Hopefulsuicide]

I'm not sure, but I just didn't get the vibe that Lionel was going to Smallville to buy the Ross' creamed corn factory. It seemed like they're changing it so that he went there expecting to find the traveler/Clark or perhaps he went there with some knowledge that Virgil Swann might be there as well so he could take his key.

What I wonder is if it will be revealed that he knew that Smallville is where the traveler would land and his plan to buy the creamed corn factory was so he could develop the weapon (based on the secret in the Zurich bank) to control Clark. But I'm thinking that would mean he would have to know about the Kawatche paintings, which in retrospect of season 2 episodes, he didn't.

Or it could be that Lionel has patience and was just going there to make a business deal. But would he really go to a small town like Smallville just like that to start a business? I mean, he had know idea until after the meteor shower that kryptonite would show up and lead to his Level 3 experiments.

Also, why bother with Level 3 when he knew how to control the traveler? I thought it was explained in Justice & Doom (or one of those side projects) that Level 3 was a way to protect humans from the traveler? Why didn't he kill Swann all those years and take his key? Why did he wait until the period of when Sacred took place?

I'm not convinced that Lionel killed Swann. I think Edward Teague started getting restless and killed Swann looking for the key (not knowing his daughter had it) and was ready to go after Lionel and Lionel killed Teague first. I think the 3 Teagues were out for not only the stones but the keys to controlling the traveler as well.

this is exactly why i keep laughing at people who actually believe they have been planning this from the beginning just based on that newspaper

it was a happy accident that they have manipulated to make people believe they are doing something intellegent with the show. but they arent being intellegent cause they aren't covering their tracks well enough

for the next few episodes people like us will be watching carefully for any continuity slips ups... if there are barely any, then i will credit them with intellegent writing, but i dont think its likely

[SSJConan]

1. Why Lionel & Virgil Swann did not recognize each other when they were first shown to meet in Legacy

How was it they didn't recognize each other? They didn't say things like "pleased to meet you" or "are you Swann/Lionel?" They formally addressed one another, Swann: "I was wondering how long it'd take you to show up." -- Lionel: "Thank you for taking the time to see me." It was simply their first onscreen meeting, it wasn't inferred they didn't recognize each other. This certainly isn't a Zefram Cochrane "Welcome, Earth men" situation.

[Hopefulsuicide]

well jason and lex didnt recognise each other... figure that one out lol

[Nataku]

I wouldn't be surprised if it's Darkseid. I am very much against Darkseid ever being on this show. I don't want the watered down version of Darkseid that I hear has appeared in the recent comics. I want the bad-ass, incredibly powerful Darkseid in the comics I loved reading---and there's no way a team of Clark, Kara, and all the other good Kryptonians on Earth combined would be able to defeat the classic Darkseid.

I for one would love to see Darkseid appear on the show. Really, they do not have to make a watered down version of Darkseid. (Well everything on Smallville is watered down to a certain degree because of TV budget and time.) I thought Smallville did a good job with their versions of Brainiac and Bizarro. Yeah, Zod was kind of a let down with the whole Lex being the vessel and not much action, but oh well. Darkseid can still be the all powerful “god” like in the comics on Smallville. Really they could have it that Darkseid does not appear on screen or on Earth, at least not at first. He could have his minions and the brainwashed black kryptonite Kara in his place. Maybe even an Orion and Kalibak storyline. Maybe just the threat of Darkseid arrival will force Clark to take action and finish his training. I myself would not want to see Clark, with or without the help of Kara and others, to defeat Darkseid in an episode or two. That would be disrespectful to what Darkseid is. But maybe they can foil one of his plans and kind of have a brief face to face, or a more indirect approach, that Darkseid will say a kind of “we will meet again (or soon) Kal-El” thing. Maybe that will get Clark to become Superman. Also having a “Dark Side” human formed Darkseid would not be so bad. The way Brainiac and Martian Manhunter appear on Smallville isn’t that bad. It’s not like it has to be his true form or anything.


well jason and lex didnt recognise each other... figure that one out lol

Well Lex could not remember much that happened before the meteor shower, and Jason could have known that. Jason was working for his mother after all.

[xrayvision]

How was it they didn't recognize each other? They didn't say things like "pleased to meet you" or "are you Swann/Lionel?" They formally addressed one another, Swann: "I was wondering how long it'd take you to show up." -- Lionel: "Thank you for taking the time to see me." It was simply their first onscreen meeting, it wasn't inferred they didn't recognize each other. This certainly isn't a Zefram Cochrane "Welcome, Earth men" situation.

Maybe I worded that bad. It just felt like that was the first face to face meeting they've had. I would think that if they were in Veritas and knew each other so well, that Swann or Lionel would say something like "It's been a long time". The line Swann used that you referred to made it seem like he knew Lionel was watching the emails between himself & Clark (which he did) and was waiting for Lionel to actually show up at his door and finally meet.

This is a more minor one. But the big question still stands, why didn't the person (Lionel, Edward Teague, or maybe even Bridgette Crosby or Genevieve) who killed Swann do it sooner? Why did they wait that long? That part makes no sense to me.

----- Added 4 Minutes later -----


I for one would love to see Darkseid appear on the show. Really, they do not have to make a watered down version of Darkseid. (Well everything on Smallville is watered down to a certain degree because of TV budget and time.) I thought Smallville did a good job with their versions of Brainiac and Bizarro. Yeah, Zod was kind of a let down with the whole Lex being the vessel and not much action, but oh well. Darkseid can still be the all powerful “god” like in the comics on Smallville. Really they could have it that Darkseid does not appear on screen or on Earth, at least not at first. He could have his minions and the brainwashed black kryptonite Kara in his place. Maybe even an Orion and Kalibak storyline. Maybe just the threat of Darkseid arrival will force Clark to take action and finish his training. I myself would not want to see Clark, with or without the help of Kara and others, to defeat Darkseid in an episode or two. That would be disrespectful to what Darkseid is. But maybe they can foil one of his plans and kind of have a brief face to face, or a more indirect approach, that Darkseid will say a kind of “we will meet again (or soon) Kal-El” thing. Maybe that will get Clark to become Superman. Also having a “Dark Side” human formed Darkseid would not be so bad. The way Brainiac and Martian Manhunter appear on Smallville isn’t that bad. It’s not like it has to be his true form or anything.

I just don't think they would do a good job of it. I think they would just want to introduce Darkseid for the wow factor and would have Clark beat him, which would not be possible at this stage in Clark's life if Darkseid is as powerful as he is in the comics. Al & Miles don't have the knowledge that comics fans like us have, so I don't think it would work. They did a decent job with Brainiac, but Brainiac is nothing compared to Darkseid. If they stick to the rule of all villians eventually get beaten by Clark or some other character, then Darkseid will have to be defeated. And if they just have a cameo of Darkseid but have his lackeys be the one Clark fights, then they will piss off too many people.

[STFanatic]

I also noticed how Lionel never took the newspaper with him in the flashback. I'm guessing the newspaper that Lionel read in the helicopter was a different copy since it was probably destroyed with the helicopter in the meteor shower, which means Lex wouldn't have it to this day.


You have to think "Rich".

Would a billionaire really worry about having just one newspaper?
I personally know a couple of doctors who have one newspaper delivered to the ER, one to the Doctor's lounge and sometimes are carrying one when they arrive.

So having a fresh newspaper in the helicopter would not really be a big thing.

[litew8]

There's something else to consider.
Why did Lex have that copy of the newspaper to begin with?
It was only durring this episode he remembered the memory about Queen.
Yet, for some reason he pulled it out - which triggered the memory.

That doesn't seem to make much sense.
Lex had the paper before even remembering (or considering) it had any importance.

Perhaps he just gathered all the newspapers (from the past) that had anything
to do with the Teagues and Queens. I don't know. Maybe it was just an excuse
they used to create Lex's memory.

[xrayvision]

Maybe he noticed that looking at things from around the meteor shower causes him to remember things (like Clark touching things in Relic making him have memories of Jor-El's from the 50's/60's in Relic). So like Clark in Relic (when he had Jonathan gather up some of Hiram's old stuff) Lex gathered up some meteor shower era items to see if he could spark old memories.

[litew8]

Maybe he noticed that looking at things from around the meteor shower causes him to remember things (like Clark touching things in Relic making him have memories of Jor-El's from the 50's/60's in Relic). So like Clark in Relic (when he had Jonathan gather up some of Hiram's old stuff) Lex gathered up some meteor shower era items to see if he could spark old memories.Well, ya - I get the gist of the mini-plot. But Lex was reminded about 2 keys (by his assistant) - then decided to grab the newspaper. So even still - he actually remembered something about a key (seconds prior) before feeling the need to pull out that specific paper. The assistant mentioned the second key - Lex had a memory - pulled out the paper and remembered the rest.

Which implies that Lex had the papers for some other reason.
I guess it isn't too much to suggest that Lex hauls around tons of old newspapers about people that use to be close to him and his father - for whatever reason. As implied earlier - he just gathered old papers that were related to the members of the Veritas goup.

[xrayvision]

I think he looked at the paper because in the first flashback he remembered Robert Queen having the key & the newspaper headline was about the Queens. I think he gathered up all the documents that pertained to Veritas and its members so he could find any detail that would lead him to the key.