Clark, less "Superman" than ever?!

[dru-zod2501]

I can't tell you how disappointed I am tonight. Every possible misstep Clark could make tonight, he did. Heroes don't always win, but they don't **** up so badly either, am I wrong to think this?

IMO the only way for Clark to be any more un-superman-ly is if he starts killing people in the street

[LegendaryU2K]

I'm a hardcore smallville fan, so i could less, just enjoy the show.

Btw are you complaining because the writers didn't make him fly?
If so, i really don't care if clark can fly or not. I do hope in the future, they make clark use his power more in certain places. Other then that, about him flying, well thats not a big concern for me.

Clark should however, maybe superjump more, or turn into Kal-el to fight brainiac

[IamProdigy]

No...Clark has always been this way and with happened to Lana and Kara going with Brainiac, it almost seemed Clark was about to break down at the end scene with Brainiac. I kinda felt more sorry for Clark then with Lana.

[theotherJane]

I'm a hardcore smallville fan, so i could less, just enjoy the show.

Btw are you complaining because the writers didn't make him fly?
If so, i really don't care if clark can fly or not. I do hope in the future, they make clark use his power more in certain places. Other then that, about him flying, well thats not a big concern for me.

Clark should however, maybe superjump more, or turn into Kal-el to fight brainiac

It wasn't so much about the flying. It's just that he half-assed everything in this episode. Once again, Chloe has to do all his dirty work for him. Now add Kara to that list. The worst part of it all is that people had to coerce him into doing stuff. A real superhero would try everything to help save the ones he loves and he didn't even try.

[reobeem]

I got to admit this was bad. Even if he didn't fly he could have still tried to stop Brainiac instead of letting him go. After 7 seasons you would think he has learned some. This is like feeling all the shame of season 6 in one episode.

[Theshadow129x]

It wasn't so much about the flying. It's just that he half-assed everything in this episode. Once again, Chloe has to do all his dirty work for him. Now add Kara to that list. The worst part of it all is that people had to coerce him into doing stuff. A real superhero would try everything to help save the ones he loves and he didn't even try.

yea i agree. i mean i thought it was a good and sad episode but i really hated how clark was because all he did was let everyone else do the work for him. he still isnt a superhero to me. at all.

[MidgardDragon]

No. We have something like this every episode, even when he's saving the world. It's pretty ridiculous and people are just freaking annoying about "OMG HE R NO SUPERMAN!" crap. Get over it, he's been closer to Superman than ever these past two seasons.

[elway]

Very pissed at the tease.....DO SOMETHING future SM at least TRY!!! Hope there's a nice payoff to this....

[dru-zod2501]

no flight? I got over that seasons ago. What grinds me is that this was the one episode when the chips were really down, and what does Clark do? he outsources the hero work for Kara and Chloe. Did he track down any leads on his own? no. Did he at any point stop to think things through, try to understand what the hell's going on? no. Did he NOT guilt himself into submission? of course not. He had his hands full chasing Lana and his tail all episode. Or maybe, just maybe even consider that Lionel might have info? Lying magnificent bastard? yea maybe, but that doesn't change the fact that he knows stuff.

Did anyone else notice that look of disgust, and contempt, and pity Brainy shot him just before he flew off? I could almost hear him say "son of Jor-El, you're even more worthless than the sapien scum you hide with"

[VisionGirl]

Eh, he's been worse.

[dru-zod2501]

No. We have something like this every episode, even when he's saving the world. It's pretty ridiculous and people are just freaking annoying about "OMG HE R NO SUPERMAN!" crap. Get over it, he's been closer to Superman than ever these past two seasons.
that my good sir is opinion

[ginnyfan]

When Kara and Clark just watched Brainiac fly off to hurt someone. My heart sank and my expectations for the episode dropped to ZERO.

[theotherJane]

No. We have something like this every episode, even when he's saving the world. It's pretty ridiculous and people are just freaking annoying about "OMG HE R NO SUPERMAN!" crap. Get over it, he's been closer to Superman than ever these past two seasons.

:rotfl: Sure, keep telling yourself that.


When Kara and Clark just watched Brainiac fly off to hurt someone. My heart sank and my expectations for the episode dropped to ZERO.

That's what I was thinking too. I was like "Oh-oh, this isn't gonna end well."
The worst part of it all is that he didn't even try. I mean Kara had to push him for Pete's sake.

[Minela]

Clark was pretty much a bystander in this entire episode, he wouldn't even try flying and put all his money on one hors, namely Chloe, whom he expected to do all of his work for him. WTF?

[jimmyolsenblues]

Brainiac has exposed clark's weakness.
1) lana
2) not flying
3) not using your head to think

[you_smell_terrific]

I'm just annoyed Clark and Kara have forgotten all of their powers except for superspeed and strength (well Kara has flying to I geuss). Like why didn't either of them x ray the barn before inspecting the damn barn? Clark last week could have x-rayed the floor to see who was making the noise and avoided being kidnapped and kara could have x-rayed the barn before just wandering in. Superhearing could have worked too. Couldn't they just listen to see if there is another heartbeat in the room?

In that respect he is less supermanly. I want my powers damnit! Put that Str-- I mean Hero episode advertising money to good use ._O!

[LoveHurts38]

Yes!

[alienkinfolk]

All Brainiac has to do now is remove Chloe and Clark will have no choice but to do his own homework

[Darth Pipes]

I'm disappointed that Clark didn't make any effort at the end to either stop Kara or go after Brianiac. He's too gutless to take a chance, as it was shown by his refusal to even try to fly.

[AlphaSigmaOne]

I agree whole heartedly with the OP.

This really wasn't a very good episode for that very reason.

[Jack-El49]

No, this wasn't Clark at his most un-Supermanly moment ever, but it was kind of close. Perhaps his indecision and his hesitation has to do with acting too hastily in the past and screwing things up that way as well. One only has to recall the events of Reckoning to realize the impact that hasty decisions have on those around Clark.

[ClarkSupportsOrganic]

Not really... he tried to help the people around him as Superman would do.

I do think he needs to step up his game.

[6-Super-Man -5]

I was surprised when Clark refused to fly...

[Superman2007]

I think that was the point..."Kal-El...You're too late"

Clark f*cked up, he refused to learn to fly and do something about Brainiac. Now he has to pay the price for his resistance.
I hope what's happened to Lana and (to a certain extent) Swann's daughter can sort of jolt him into action. He has to be more pro-active about trying to be a hero, instead of just whining about the burden.

[C Redfield]

This was him at his worse and the usual Gough/Miller spit in the fans face. Every time they promise he's gonna be more superman like. It always ends with him bitc*ing about Life with Lana. My favorite part of Veritas were the 10 seconds of Descent.

[Chloelicious]

I think that was the point..."Kal-El...You're too late"

Clark f*cked up, he refused to learn to fly and do something about Brainiac. Now he has to pay the price for his resistance.
I hope what's happened to Lana and (to a certain extent) Swann's daughter can sort of jolt him into action. He has to be more pro-active about trying to be a hero, instead of just whining about the burden.

Very well put. . .:)

[Mar-El]

I think that was the point..."Kal-El...You're too late"

Clark f*cked up, he refused to learn to fly and do something about Brainiac. Now he has to pay the price for his resistance.
I hope what's happened to Lana and (to a certain extent) Swann's daughter can sort of jolt him into action. He has to be more pro-active about trying to be a hero, instead of just whining about the burden.

I want to believe the writers aren't stupid and they see exactly how they write Clark, so I'm hoping this is their endgame. After you've hit rock bottom, the only direction left to go is up. So I definitely hope what you hope and I agree, it was well put!

[dru-zod2501]

I think that was the point..."Kal-El...You're too late"

Clark f*cked up, he refused to learn to fly and do something about Brainiac. Now he has to pay the price for his resistance.
I hope what's happened to Lana and (to a certain extent) Swann's daughter can sort of jolt him into action. He has to be more pro-active about trying to be a hero, instead of just whining about the burden.
one can only hope, if you're one of those that still thinks Clark can one day be Superman

[jazel]

I can't tell you how disappointed I am tonight. Every possible misstep Clark could make tonight, he did. Heroes don't always win, but they don't **** up so badly either, am I wrong to think this?

IMO the only way for Clark to be any more un-superman-ly is if he starts killing people in the street

:lol: thank you, much appreciated !

On a serious note, I am truelly :confused:.
Seasons 4 and 5 were so awesome, and hopeful.....CK was well on his way, to becoming Superman. I do NOT know the "definitive" moment of when it happened in Season 6, but they seemed to reverse back to Season 1.*tears*
I'm have a "difficult" time, seeing SV's Clark, as ever being Superman.:(

[litew8]

I think that was the point..."Kal-El...You're too late"

Clark f*cked up, he refused to learn to fly and do something about Brainiac. Now he has to pay the price for his resistance.
I hope what's happened to Lana and (to a certain extent) Swann's daughter can sort of jolt him into action. He has to be more pro-active about trying to be a hero, instead of just whining about the burden.I disagree. At first, yes - it was about him learning how to fly to be on the same level as Brainiac. But later on - no, I don't think that what Brainiac said through Lana ("you're too late") had anything to do with flying. Even if Clark learned how to fly - that wouldn't have stopped Kara from going off with Brainiac willingly. It was her choice. Clark flying wouldn't have changed that.

----- Added 2 Minutes later -----


This was him at his worse and the usual Gough/Miller spit in the fans face. Every time they promise he's gonna be more superman like. It always ends with him bitc*ing about Life with Lana. My favorite part of Veritas were the 10 seconds of Descent.The BIGGEST spit in the face was when they gave SUPERMAN'S phrase "Up, up and away!" to Kara. I thought that was the DUMBEST thing, EVER.

[Theshadow129x]

Clark is less of a superman. He continues to pull away from his destiny and i understand that at one time when he was young it was overwhelming but because he lacks the understanding to do what is necessary he puts all his friends and family at risk because of his resistence from jor-el and his destiny.

This whole thing is very much his fault. For weeks they knew Brainiac was back and they nothing to find him and shut him down (no pun intended). They didnt do that, they let him run a muck on the streets and let him rebuild his core to full power. and even after he showed up at the farm all clark wants to do is ponder and hope Lana is alright. he needs to act more than mope and feel sorry for himself. he f'ed up big time and i dont feel sorry for Clark at all its all his fault. I feel bad for Lana to be honest and i never thought i would say that but i do feel sorry for her.

----- Added 2 Minutes later -----

she got into the cross fire and seriously she didn't deserve what happened to her. I mean I wanted her to die but i didnt want her to suffer not she is and its Clark fault.

[herolee10]

she got into the cross fire and seriously she didn't deserve what happened to her. I mean I wanted her to die but i didnt want her to suffer not she is and its Clark fault.

Wow, that line reminded me of an episode of family guy where Stewie griffen was talking about "Lois" on how "he doesn't want to kill her, he just doesn't want her alive anymore":rotfl::D:lol:

[sherban1988]

I'm just annoyed Clark and Kara have forgotten all of their powers except for superspeed and strength (well Kara has flying to I geuss). Like why didn't either of them x ray the barn before inspecting the damn barn? Clark last week could have x-rayed the floor to see who was making the noise and avoided being kidnapped and kara could have x-rayed the barn before just wandering in. Superhearing could have worked too. Couldn't they just listen to see if there is another heartbeat in the room?

In that respect he is less supermanly. I want my powers damnit! Put that Str-- I mean Hero episode advertising money to good use ._O!


I noticed this too. It's like, HEY! Supercousins! You have tons of powers, and it's not like there's a magic bar aboive your head which drains with the use of powers.

[jimmyolsenblues]

if clark is invulnerable, why is he afraid to jump out the barn window?
is was upsetting to me when he was left at the end.

[Krypton935]

No! not in my opinoin anyway!

[dan_oc714]

i dont think he was "less superman-ish".. or whatever..he's never been "superman-ish" to begin with..so how could he be less of it.. but one thing that i've always disliked Clark doing..is rushing and being aggressive..accusing.. hard headed.. he used to do this to Lex, Lionel, Chloe.. almost everyone when he found out they did something wrong..but in this epi..he holds himself from attacking Braniac..because braniac can move as fast as he can..he's powerful..and clark knows he's intellegent.. it was almost like a chess game..and braniac made a move.. what was he gonna do.. rush at him and hit him..so he could kill Lana.. just my thoughts..

[BRAISKI]

The problem is that, in the show Clark has always been gullible and a a bit slow. Last time he said he wants to take the full training and stuff. I guess they are just trying to prolong Clark's transformation.

[kal-el_Girl]

I respected TW for the "no fly" rule, but it's getting to a point that it's hurting the story line and I think that TW needs to get over the "fear" of flying and portraying the next step in his character, I LOVE TW BUT he's not going to get a second chance if he keeps refusing to fly..
JUST FLY MAN

[BadToad]

I don't think this episode was a good showcase for Clark at all. But on the other hand, I don't quite know what he did to inspire so much hatred and vitriol from some of you.

Yes, he doesn't fly, and by this point on the show, its a pain in the neck. And since the show so rarely allows Clark to articulate what he's feeling (unless it has something to do with Lana), we don't really know why he's so hesitant. But really, didn't we know that they weren't going to have him flying around on this show?

And also, if Clark could fly in this episode, what would've been the big difference? Was Kara able to find Brainiac by flying around? No! In fact, it was Clark that got a lead on him first, by having Chloe trace the energy grid.

Not attacking Brainiac on the roof? What good what that have done? Not to mention that Brainiac just told him that he controlled every breath Lana takes. So, what happens if he attacks Brainiac? Thats the problem, he doesn't know. Neither does Kara. Which is why they BOTH decide to go along with what he wants, though Clark does try to urge Kara not to. As much as I hate it being All About Lana, it does't change the fact that neither Clark or Kara would risk someones life so callously. Even if Clark can fly off after them, what then? It was a no-win situation. And I absolutely HATE that the show sets up these situations all the freaking time, but they do. Its like Clark is wrong, no matter what he does. Its so frustrating!

I would love to see Clark being more proactive too. But its apparent that TPTB believe that if they have Clark go too far in that direction, then he's Superman, and thats not the story they want to tell. I think thats a mistake on their part.

I believe that they could very easily move Clark closer to his final destination. I know some of you are going to hate him regardless, and you're entitled to that opinion. I do believe the MAJORITY of SV fans are ready, willing and open to the possibility of that happening. Its just a matter of these writers finally getting off their butts, and to actually write FOR CLARK KENT. Enough with trying to do justice to storylines for every other character. What difference does that make when you don't take the time to get your main characters storyline right?

[Timester]

I believe that they could very easily move Clark closer to his final destination. I know some of you are going to hate him regardless, and you're entitled to that opinion. I do believe the MAJORITY of SV fans are ready, willing and open to the possibility of that happening. Its just a matter of these writers finally getting off their butts, and to actually write FOR CLARK KENT. Enough with trying to do justice to storylines for every other character. What difference does that make when you don't take the time to get your main characters storyline right?

Because they can't write the "Clark Kent". :\

It's like every single writer on this show has the idea of making Clark an emo hero like Spiderman. If that's the idea they have, then I do prefer they don't write for Clark at all.

Heck, I don't even talk about him being proactive anymore, the writers are against it. I just ask for the other side of Clark's life, like I don't know, the JOURNALISM?...

[Kal-El-073]

I think that was the point..."Kal-El...You're too late"

Clark f*cked up, he refused to learn to fly and do something about Brainiac. Now he has to pay the price for his resistance.
I hope what's happened to Lana and (to a certain extent) Swann's daughter can sort of jolt him into action. He has to be more pro-active about trying to be a hero, instead of just whining about the burden.

Amen. Maybe this will bring him out of his shell so to speak.

[eeris]

He should have attacked brainiac as soon as he saw him at the barn, not stood around for a chat imo.

[kryptonaidxh]

:rolleyes:Oh yes, definetely, as long as he still nag about that horrible Clana relatioship and won´t see that she´s not the one for him and never will, he will never progress in his life and never move on. He doesn´t fly yet and he didn´t even want to learn to fly in this episode!:\, unbelievable!, if he had learned to fly maby he could have done more than he did in this episode against Braniac, he could have helped Kara to defeat Braniac, but Clark did absolutely NOTHING in this episode, Kara was the only heroine actually.:rolleyes::p

[darkkrypton81]

It was absolutely sickening that Clark refused to fly. Even if he leapt out of the barn and fell two stories and landed on his face, it would have been hilarious but at least he would have tried. And when Kara and Brainiac flew off, he would have just leapt up and maybe just reached the atmostphere and plummeted back down and cause a skyscraper to collapse.

If any of the above just happened, this would have been a memorable episode and not a must-forget episode. This show needs some more humor anyway.

[redraven]

I could have sworn I had posted before on here but oh well.

I think that Bizarro acts more like Superman than Clark does, he's more proactive (like against Lex for example) and doesn't need to go to Chloe for everything.

[Ladyalchemy]

My problem with him is he didn't even TRY. The love of his life gets whacked out and now has silver eyes, is 'in pain' and not in control of herself and he doesn't have a vendetta against the guy responsible? and his cousin goes off with the same aforementioned man and he doesn't even physically try to stop it. I'm beginning to wonder if Clark knows how to sacrifice for the greater good. I almost think Biz Clark would be better for the world than him. At least he would give the Brain-man a strong talking to. ;)

[skizzo]

Don't care. I watch the show cos I like Smallville, not exactly Superman.

[Martin le Magicien]

Clark wasn't Superman, or super, or a man.

I can't believe that he, AGAIN, let someone pay the price so he can be with Lana. He just lets Brainiac fly away TWICE, without even trying to fight him in order to protect innocent bystander or the people he love.

Superman would never refuse to master a power if it means it could help him fight a dangerous foe.

This Clark is so gutless I just want to hit him on the nose with a newspaper, every women on this show have more balls than him in all aspects of life. Chloe has the guts to have an healthy relationship with a member of the opposite sex that actually last more than two months and that has more happy moments than sad ones and with a man who isn't her high school crush. Lois has the guts to try journalism, and Kara to sacrifice herself for someone she cares about.

Clark only has the guts to look at someone with a vacant expression in his eyes.

[Superman2007]

I think Welling played Clark not wanting to fly well....almost a little too well...almost like he was playing himself,lol.

The issue here is that Clark has been exposed to so many focused heroes like Green Arrow and Aquaman, that he is a lot more powerful and could help a lot more people than, it just makes the audience ask why he wouldn't do the same? Maybe this Clark doesn't want to really help people and wants to just be a family man in Smallville. Which is fine, but if the show still requires him to be Superman, at this point, he'd have to be shocked or forced into action. Which is really Batman's origin.

[Kii]

I thought the episode was complete crap because Clark refused to fly when he was on the farm, and didn't even bother trying to go after Kara and Brainiac when they took off.

[jazel]

LOVED, that Kara even "tried", to push him into it.:lol:

[Reighnhell]

Before I begin, I will state for the record that I enjoy Smallvillle, and I enjoy seeing different interpretations and variations of the superman mythos.

That being said, I wish the writers would stop screwing around and give us SUPERMAN. While the whole premise of the show is a extended origin story about how Superman and Lex Luthor go from being friends to being mortal enemies, and the producers stated early that there would be "no flights-no tights" , it becomes obvious that the writers must have a mandate to prolong the Clarks transformation into Superman for as long as possible.
And for the first few seasons, this was okay. He was in highschool, he was learning, and we accepted that. But except for the occasional flash of honest to god superheroics, Clark Kents character has remained stuck as a farm boy crying over his girlfriend while every other character on the show has advanced. Lionel has sought redemption, Chloe and Lois have started their careers, Martha is a politician, Lana is a successful business woman, Lex has turned into a royal bastard. Clark has done nothing but hide on a farm. He has to be dragged kicking and screaming to any plot point that advances his character and edges him closer to that ultimate destiny.
And I blame the writers and producers, who probably feel that when Clark becomes the hero we want him to be, the show will be over. I say their reluctance to let Clark be the hero (or even grow up) is killing the show.
It's not good when your protagonists nick name is Big Dumb Alien and you constantly have story lines that make him look like a fool, a weakling, or a coward. It's insult to injury that the supporting cast gets the lions share of heroic deeds that don't involve running really fast or being bulletproof (and Kara is eating up alot of that action as well).
I think the fans are tired of seeing their hero, the guy most of us believe is the greatest superhero ever, portrayed in such a fashion. While over all a good, dramatic episode, Veritas is a MAJOR detour for Clark on his road to ultimate heroism and I hope to God the writers decide to bite the bullet and let Clark finally, fully, and unapologetically be brave , confident and heroic.

[GuardianAngel]

Brainiac has exposed clark's weakness.
1) lana
2) not flying
3) not using your head to think

Agred 100%.

[CK&CK]

Before I begin, I will state for the record that I enjoy Smallvillle, and I enjoy seeing different interpretations and variations of the superman mythos.

That being said, I wish the writers would stop screwing around and give us SUPERMAN. While the whole premise of the show is a extended origin story about how Superman and Lex Luthor go from being friends to being mortal enemies, and the producers stated early that there would be "no flights-no tights" , it becomes obvious that the writers must have a mandate to prolong the Clarks transformation into Superman for as long as possible.
And for the first few seasons, this was okay. He was in highschool, he was learning, and we accepted that. But except for the occasional flash of honest to god superheroics, Clark Kents character has remained stuck as a farm boy crying over his girlfriend while every other character on the show has advanced. Lionel has sought redemption, Chloe and Lois have started their careers, Martha is a politician, Lana is a successful business woman, Lex has turned into a royal bastard. Clark has done nothing but hide on a farm. He has to be dragged kicking and screaming to any plot point that advances his character and edges him closer to that ultimate destiny.
And I blame the writers and producers, who probably feel that when Clark becomes the hero we want him to be, the show will be over. I say their reluctance to let Clark be the hero (or even grow up) is killing the show.
It's not good when your protagonists nick name is Big Dumb Alien and you constantly have story lines that make him look like a fool, a weakling, or a coward. It's insult to injury that the supporting cast gets the lions share of heroic deeds that don't involve running really fast or being bulletproof (and Kara is eating up alot of that action as well).
I think the fans are tired of seeing their hero, the guy most of us believe is the greatest superhero ever, portrayed in such a fashion. While over all a good, dramatic episode, Veritas is a MAJOR detour for Clark on his road to ultimate heroism and I hope to God the writers decide to bite the bullet and let Clark finally, fully, and unapologetically be brave , confident and heroic.

I agree with a lot of this....well...except the part about Superman being the Greatest Super Hero ever.....Most Powerful yes......But not the Greatest (Batman's got my vote in that department)....and Lana may be a successful business woman....but it's annoying that she didn't earn it legitamately.....unless you call sleeping with the enemy, suffering with enemy, then divorcing the enemy, and then stealing his 10 Mil........yeah, if you can call that earning it on your own merit...then okay....she earned it.....Man, even the Talon was established on Lex's wallet......but what the hey.....everything else in your post is pretty much on the money as far as I'm concerned.

As far as posterity is concerned...2 seasons ago I told my fellow fans what I thought this series would do for the Superman legacy....and I still see that vision going strong with Smallville....because again.....the main problem is that once this Clark Kent's slow intelligence and selfishness (that is often followed by his unselfishness........but which is unfortunately almost always preceded by an Anvil landing on his head....followed by a dimly lit light bulb going "ON" just above his head).....once these antics of are caught on celluloid....it's there forever.....FOREVER.....which is really great for future generations don't you think....think of the countless young fans who will have this version of Clark Kent/Superman as their first introduction to the character. As stand alone episodes go.....I don't think these young fans would notice.........but as a whole series?.....At some point there gonna be asking themselves...."This is Clark Kent?.....Future Superman?" All they're really gonna get from this show is that this Clark Kent IS NOT, and WILL NOT be the sharpest tool in the shed.........or in the Justice League for that matter.

I started watching the series again......simply due to Pete Ross' return (although I must admit that I have watched up loaded video bits of the Green Arrow).....and it's a good thing that I sat and suffered through that Stride Commercial to see the trailer for "Traveler"......otherwise I might have missed "Traveler"......which was one of the best in my recollection. But as far as Veritas.....it wasn't a bad episode...it was actually pretty well done...but it just proved to me that Clark was still closer to being the classic Superman during his first 3 years in High School.....after that.......it's mostly been a pretentious load of what Clark is constantly shoveling out of the Kent Farm's horse stalls every day.

[Azra-El]

We have to understand that this is a pre-Superman Clark. During which, there will be a growing process, if you will. He will learn. I believe that it shows the flawed character that is Clark. He is not perfect, and as such, he will demonstrate characteristics that might not be that of a 'hero'. The paths that he chooses, though, will form him into the Superman we all know and love. Without trials and opposition there can be no progression. Without acceptance, acknowledgement and ownership of past errors advancement will be at a standstill. <ST1:pClark will see and learn where his weakness lie, and as a result, it will mold him into a better person, and in the future, a better hero. *Azra-El*

[dru-zod2501]

We have to understand that this is a pre-Superman Clark. During which, there will be a growing process, if you will. He will learn. I believe that it shows the flawed character that is Clark. He is not perfect, and as such, he will demonstrate characteristics that might not be that of a 'hero'. The paths that he chooses, though, will form him into the Superman we all know and love. Without trials and opposition there can be no progression. Without acceptance, acknowledgement and ownership of past errors advancement will be at a standstill. <ST1:pClark will see and learn where his weakness lie, and as a result, it will mold him into a better person, and in the future, a better hero. *Azra-El*

damn u write tiny!

no one is disputing what you said, but for 7 years we've seen him make mistakes that keep becoming more severe with no appreciable gain in wisdom. These choices are supposed to bring him closer to being the wise superhero of legend, but many of us feel when or if it does happen, it'll be some lame lightbulb moment that won't do Superman justice. after 7 years we expect him to think more, and do more, than he currently does. Even if he's not Superman yet, he should be better than the Clark we have now.

[Theshadow129x]

We have to understand that this is a pre-Superman Clark. During which, there will be a growing process, if you will. He will learn. I believe that it shows the flawed character that is Clark. He is not perfect, and as such, he will demonstrate characteristics that might not be that of a 'hero'. The paths that he chooses, though, will form him into the Superman we all know and love. Without trials and opposition there can be no progression. Without acceptance, acknowledgement and ownership of past errors advancement will be at a standstill. <ST1:pClark will see and learn where his weakness lie, and as a result, it will mold him into a better person, and in the future, a better hero. *Azra-El*


I see where you are coming from but i have to disagree. see the problem with the show is how they continuously have clark make the same decisions/ mistakes all the time. he has been told that him thinking with his emotions brings huge consequences than that of the consequences of a human that thinks with their emotions. Yeah, he was raised by humans but even we learn to not make the same mistakes again; Clark constantly puts his friends and family in danger by prolonging what it is that needs and has to do. And I hate to say "prolonging what he has and needs to do" because it should have never came down to that when it comes to Superman because now he's being pushed to his heroism and when he has to be pushed it doesn't make him any different from any other character that is a superhero. Sure it can be pre-crisis superman it can be post crisis superman but the thing is we want the actual superman he fights for what is right, isn't an idiot, and actually cares for more people than those that are in his little circle.

He has constantly put the lives of those he loves and the planet in danger just from not thinking correctly. they bring in other heroes on to the show and they are more heroes than he has ever been. its pathetic! This whole episode was used to make Clark seem useless because kara/ supergirl is more of a hero than he ever is

[xrayvision]

I have seen Clark worse than this.

[CK&CK]

damn u write tiny!

no one is disputing what you said, but for 7 years we've seen him make mistakes that keep becoming more severe with no appreciable gain in wisdom. These choices are supposed to bring him closer to being the wise superhero of legend, but many of us feel when or if it does happen, it'll be some lame lightbulb moment that won't do Superman justice. after 7 years we expect him to think more, and do more, than he currently does. Even if he's not Superman yet, he should be better than the Clark we have now.

I agree completely.....it's called growth. A person has certain atributes that come through even from the very beginning...and we see these attributes grow and mature over time.....and TPTB did this beautifully with Clark during the first 2 seasons....and even somewhat in season 3....but after that......sometimes I feel like I'm watching John Steinbeck's "Of Mice and Men".......and this Clark Kent was definitely born to play Lenny......Yes.....I can hear Clark now....."Hi....I'm Lenny Small of Smallville"......kind of has a truthfull ring to it.....doesn't it.

[Theshadow129x]

I know, we all have seen Clark worse than this but he's just so stupid in this episode. Like the ign review said, this episode showed exactly how useless clark is. he did nothing at all. its pathetic!!!! i liked the episode but this is horrible at how he is

[CK&CK]

I have seen Clark worse than this.

Chasing his ex-friend's supposedly pregnant fiance on her wedding day.....with a could care less attitude about the supposed fetus' future.......Yep, I've seen him worse than in this episode (Veritas) as well.

[kryptonaidxh]

[QUOTE=Martin le Magicien;3683982]Clark wasn't Superman, or super, or a man.

I can't believe that he, AGAIN, let someone pay the price so he can be with Lana. He just lets Brainiac fly away TWICE, without even trying to fight him in order to protect innocent bystander or the people he love.


This Clark is so gutless I just want to hit him on the nose with a newspaper, every women on this show have more balls than him in all aspects of life. Chloe has the guts to have an healthy relationship with a member of the opposite sex that actually last more than two months and that has more happy moments than sad ones and with a man who isn't her high school crush. Lois has the guts to try journalism, and Kara to sacrifice herself for someone she cares about.

:rolleyes:;)all true actually, even the women of Smallville have more guts than him, specially Kara, I can´t believe that he left Kara blamed herself because of Lana!, why Kara would be guilty about that?!:( about what Braniac did to her? and why did Clark let her go with him and let her paying the prize of his own mistakes?!, is his obsession of living his fool fairy tale next to Lana in the farm forever so big that Clark is capable of letting Kara to fight alone and even sacrifice herself in order to his supossed hapiness next to Lana?:confused: Clark is a big yerk!:p:mad:

[CK&CK]

Is it too much to ask him to at least try a Super Jump? But Nooooooo......he just watches as Brainiac both gloats, and shows his disdain (and is it wrong for me to love that fact that Brianiac brilliantly conveyed my contempt for this Clark Kent as well?)...and takes off right in front of his face.

[Spirit Detective]

It felt like Vessel where Clark was in a no win situation. If he pursued Brainiac, Lana would die. If he didn't, Brainiac would succeed in his plans.

[Zod in my pocket]

It felt like Vessel where Clark was in a no win situation. If he pursued Brainiac, Lana would die. If he didn't, Brainiac would succeed in his plans.
except Lana wasn't really the one in mortal danger, Lex was. Superman has killed before. It haunted him for a long time, but he learned to deal with it. Clark could've learned to do the same in this situation with Lex

[HalJordan4184]

except Lana wasn't really the one in mortal danger, Lex was. Superman has killed before. It haunted him for a long time, but he learned to deal with it. Clark could've learned to do the same in this situation with Lex

You don't have teh context right for what mand Superman kill however. He was faced with three super powered beings, each of whom was way stronger than he was, and they had all vowed, after destroying their planet Earth, to find a way to come to Superman's Earth, and kill everyone and everything he loves.

And they could have done it. He killed in order to prevent the death of billions, because he had no other choice. It was the pocket universe Zod, and no matter what move Superman made there, billions of people would have been given a death sentence. So he had the three kryptonians executed using kryptonite.

Smallville's Clark has never been in that situation, and I don't foresee him ever being in one like it, because he'd have to be proactive first.

[magmind]

i also wanted to see clark fly.
but..i think the "Joker" is right about the superman..
he describe superman as "Big-blue-ba-fool"
and "clueless as always"

OMG why the most important superhero deserves to be like this?

[sithius]

You don't have teh context right for what mand Superman kill however. He was faced with three super powered beings, each of whom was way stronger than he was, and they had all vowed, after destroying their planet Earth, to find a way to come to Superman's Earth, and kill everyone and everything he loves.

And they could have done it. He killed in order to prevent the death of billions, because he had no other choice. It was the pocket universe Zod, and no matter what move Superman made there, billions of people would have been given a death sentence. So he had the three kryptonians executed using kryptonite.

Smallville's Clark has never been in that situation, and I don't foresee him ever being in one like it, because he'd have to be proactive first.

Which comic issue is that storyline?

[wolverine316]

I don't usually fall in line with the Clark bashing on this board. But Clark was really pathetic the other night. Outside of not listening to Lionel which I don't blame him for, he was such a loser. Well Brainiac is back, I know I will let Chloe do all the work of finding him for me. Kara felt it would help their chances to battle Brainiac if Clark flew but he chickened out. Couldn't even protect his girlfriend Lana from harm. Then at the end Brainiac did his best to hold in his laughter when he and Kara took off leaving poor pathetic Clark to lick his wounds. Does Clark have a pair? Maybe Shelby can save the day?

[Mar-El]

Which comic issue is that storyline?

I don't know which comic issue it was in but I think him dealing with the after-effects and guilt of it was collected in the Superman: Exile graphic novel.

[Hopefulsuicide]

how can anyone ever call him brave after that episode? if he cant even jump out a window in the safety of his own home with his cousin there to help when there is no chance of him getting hurt... he doesnt deserve to have his powers

shelby did a better job with them

[clarkbunny]

I have to say I don't really get what you guys are complaining about. I voted no on the poll.

There wasn't really a great deal that Clark could have done in this episode. He sent Lana off to be out of the way and Brainiac found her and messed with her brain.

Maybe when he found Brainiac he could have been more angry and grabbed him then asked what he did to Lana. But Clark knows that Brainiac is as powerful as he is so not sure what this would achieve.

Then once Brainiac revealed that he was controlling Lana, Clark couldn't attack Brainiac as say he managed to destroy Brainiac there would never be any way of reversing what he'd done to Lana. It was a catch 22 situation.

Regarding the whole flying lesson thing. I think it was pretty poorly scripted to be honest - the episode was built up as Kara teaches Clark to fly. But in the scene she didn't really teach him anything, just said yeah it's easy and tried to push him out of the window. Based on that kind of teaching i'm not surprised he wasn't all that keen to throw himself out of the barn window.

Imagine if that's how driving lessons were - the instructor says "yeah well basically you just turn the wheel and drive, it's easy go on now you try it" :lol:

I was a bit disappointed with the episode as essentially nothing happened. It finished and I was surprised as I was waiting for somethng to happen. Nothing was resolved. I am so glad this wasn't actually the season finale as it would have been pretty lame.

[Hopefulsuicide]

He just didnt act like a hero. He acted like a scared little sorry for himself boy. I mean he does save the day alot, and he was trying to find braniac, but for all the wrong unsuperman like reasons

not because braniac poses and threat and Clark wants to help people, but cause he feels like he has to cause otherwise it'll be his fault cause he's from krypton blah blah

him not even trying to fly just seemed idiotic... i agree that was bad writing, but there seems to be alot of that about

[clarkbunny]

^^

But I don't get what people would have wanted him to do differently which would have made him more Superman like. Everyone is complaining but no-one is actually saying what he could have done that would be better.

Aside from that Clark isn't actually Superman yet.

Everyone is viewing Clark from the perspective of what they know he will become. If you view things from Clark's perspective as a character with no idea what his future holds, no idea that he is supposed to be some sort of hero for the world, just trying to find his place in society and come to grips with his abilities and Kryptonian heritage - I think it makes it easier to understand why he behaves in the way that he does.

I mean i'm pretty sure if people could watch Bill Clinton as a young university student partaking of pot but "not inhaling" they would be crying foul - how could this person possibly be the president of the USA, he's not acting Presidential like and moving towards his destiny LOL!

To imagine myself in Clark's shoes I think the character deserves more slack as it must be very difficult to be him and I can justify his actions, well most of them.

[BadToad]

You aren't alone clarkbunny. This wasn't a good episode for Clark, IMO. But I really think the hate, bashing and scorn is just ludicriously excessive. But I'm really just too tired of trying to have a discussion with the Clark/TW haters. So, good luck with that. :)

[neoblackdragon]

Was Bizzaro so bad?

I mean outside of the taking Clarks life(which lets face it, was doing it better)

Maybe Clark is the bad guy and should have just moved to the side.

Personally i dont see why Flying is a big deal now. Bizzaro flew and the episode did not come crashing down. He treated the power like he treat superspeed(and its probably a cheaper effect then going superspeed)

[clarkbunny]

You aren't alone clarkbunny. This wasn't a good episode for Clark, IMO. But I really think the hate, bashing and scorn is just ludicriously excessive. But I'm really just too tired of trying to have a discussion with the Clark/TW haters. So, good luck with that. :)

Ahhh thank you BadToad, so glad there are others out there :)

[Hopefulsuicide]

^^

But I don't get what people would have wanted him to do differently which would have made him more Superman like. Everyone is complaining but no-one is actually saying what he could have done that would be better.

Aside from that Clark isn't actually Superman yet.

Everyone is viewing Clark from the perspective of what they know he will become. If you view things from Clark's perspective as a character with no idea what his future holds, no idea that he is supposed to be some sort of hero for the world, just trying to find his place in society and come to grips with his abilities and Kryptonian heritage - I think it makes it easier to understand why he behaves in the way that he does.

I mean i'm pretty sure if people could watch Bill Clinton as a young university student partaking of pot but "not inhaling" they would be crying foul - how could this person possibly be the president of the USA, he's not acting Presidential like and moving towards his destiny LOL!

To imagine myself in Clark's shoes I think the character deserves more slack as it must be very difficult to be him and I can justify his actions, well most of them.

things that would have made him seem more like superman

1) if the fight at the beginning had not gone so ridiculously quickly...
2) if clark had said 'take me instead' when demanding Kara go with him... not that im saying it didnt HAVE to be Kara, but Clark didn't know that
3) actually protecting Lana... keeping her away from the farm is obviously not enough. while Lana was having her brain played with, Clark was wasting time not attempting to fly and talking about the fact Braniac runs on energy!
4) if he had actually jumped out the window/floated a little bit/actually flown... that whole scene where kara and brainiac flew off would have been great if clark has followed them a little bit and then backed off when he realised there was nothing he could do
5) not immediately called chloe and begged that she'd figured it all out for him
6) if he had listened to Lionel... he completely ignored his warnings, which is not only irrational... if someone is really scared its instinct to want to know whats going on. but its also totally un superman to give up on somebody as much as this. i understand he was angry, but it came across as ignorant not angry.
7) if he had said something to Lana in that last scene like 'i'm going to get you back' or 'he wont get away with this' or 'lana, please hang on'... but no, he closed her eyes like he was giving up on her. pathetic! if i were Lana, conscious of everything that was going on but unable to move or talk or anything, and he shut my eyes id be really annoyed...
8) if he recognised that obviously he couldn't handle this on his own and it might be a good idea to get some help from somewhere. i.e. JL or even the luthors... it is a good thing to ask for help when you need him. Superman working with others doesnt make him any less superman

now im not saying that all these things shud have happened, im just giving you examples of things that would have been supermanly of him to do, that he failed to do

[clarkbunny]

things that would have made him seem more like superman

1) if the fight at the beginning had not gone so ridiculously quickly...
2) if clark had said 'take me instead' when demanding Kara go with him... not that im saying it didnt HAVE to be Kara, but Clark didn't know that
3) actually protecting Lana... keeping her away from the farm is obviously not enough. while Lana was having her brain played with, Clark was wasting time not attempting to fly and talking about the fact Braniac runs on energy!
4) if he had actually jumped out the window/floated a little bit/actually flown... that whole scene where kara and brainiac flew off would have been great if clark has followed them a little bit and then backed off when he realised there was nothing he could do
5) not immediately called chloe and begged that she'd figured it all out for him
6) if he had listened to Lionel... he completely ignored his warnings, which is not only irrational... if someone is really scared its instinct to want to know whats going on. but its also totally un superman to give up on somebody as much as this. i understand he was angry, but it came across as ignorant not angry.
7) if he had said something to Lana in that last scene like 'i'm going to get you back' or 'he wont get away with this' or 'lana, please hang on'... but no, he closed her eyes like he was giving up on her. pathetic! if i were Lana, conscious of everything that was going on but unable to move or talk or anything, and he shut my eyes id be really annoyed...
8) if he recognised that obviously he couldn't handle this on his own and it might be a good idea to get some help from somewhere. i.e. JL or even the luthors... it is a good thing to ask for help when you need him. Superman working with others doesnt make him any less superman

now im not saying that all these things shud have happened, im just giving you examples of things that would have been supermanly of him to do, that he failed to do

To address some of your points:
1) So if he had taken longer to fight with Brainiac that would make him more Supermanly??:confused:
2) True he could have said take me instead or he could have told Kara to fly him along wherever Brainiac took her. Although to be honest I don't think Brainiac would have agreed to any of that and Clark wasn't really in a position to be calling the shots what with Lana's life in the balance.
3) Clark had no reason to believe that Lana would be in danger at the Isis centre. Besides which I am confused how Brainiac even knew about the Isis centre in the first place OR that she was there and also how did Lana recognise Brainiac? as to my knowledge she has never met him before?
4) I say blame the writers not the character for him not attempting to fly. That whole scene was just lame. You could just as easily have blamed Kara and said maybe she should have given Clark a super push out of the barn window forcing him to fly/float or fall. To me if Clark had tried to follow Kara then backed off at the end that would have made him look WEAK and even LESS Supermanly. As it was Clark stayed firmly on the ground as he knew his limitations. I don't think this scene really belonged in this episode to be honest, it wasn't a good time for Kara to be trying to teach Clark to fly - they had more important issues to deal with
5) It's well established that Chloe does all the techie stuff for Clark, why does it suddenly make Clark un-supermanly in this instance?
6) Seriously, Clark had no reason to listen to Lionel. You try being locked up and tortured by someone you thought you knew and could trust and see how easy it is to listen to what they have to say. Besides Clark was looking for Lana, Lionel was wasting his time at that point.
7) To me Clark was overcome with emotion, which is why he didn't say any of those things. This is not uncommon for superman, didn't he collapse and cry or something in one of the superman films when Lois Lane died before he flew around the world backwards to reverse time and bring her back to life?? Clark can't fly and doesn't know where Brainiac has taken Kara if he'd said those things he would be making empty promises. He closed Lana's eyes and touched her cheek out of tenderness and caring for her, he couldn't stand to see her like that.
8) Honestly what could the Justice League have done in this situation? They don't have Clark's powers and Brainiac does plus he can fly. Why would Clark put their lives in danger as well - if anything by NOT calling them he WAS being supermanly and protecting them from harm. Similarly what could Lionel have done to help?? besides which Clark had no reason to trust Lionel and the bridge between him and Lex is now just a couple of burnt tinder sticks

[BULLITT]

First couple of years - 'Freak-of-the-week'....

Last two years - 'How-many-ways-can-one-guy-get-punked.'

[Hopefulsuicide]

To address some of your points:
1) So if he had taken longer to fight with Brainiac that would make him more Supermanly??:confused:


if the fight had not been ended by braniac so quickly yes... why didnt they chase after him? why just let him run away?

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----


To address some of your points:

2) True he could have said take me instead or he could have told Kara to fly him along wherever Brainiac took her. Although to be honest I don't think Brainiac would have agreed to any of that and Clark wasn't really in a position to be calling the shots what with Lana's life in the balance.


its not about what would have come of him saying it... its just that superman would have said it

----- Added 2 Minutes later -----



3) Clark had no reason to believe that Lana would be in danger at the Isis centre. Besides which I am confused how Brainiac even knew about the Isis centre in the first place OR that she was there and also how did Lana recognise Brainiac? as to my knowledge she has never met him before?


why did he have no reason to believe she was in danger alone anywhere in the world. he's a kryptonian super computer who threatened to hurt people, and clark shud know by now that everyone goes after Lana

----- Added 4 Minutes later -----



4) I say blame the writers not the character for him not attempting to fly. That whole scene was just lame. You could just as easily have blamed Kara and said maybe she should have given Clark a super push out of the barn window forcing him to fly/float or fall. To me if Clark had tried to follow Kara then backed off at the end that would have made him look WEAK and even LESS Supermanly. As it was Clark stayed firmly on the ground as he knew his limitations. I don't think this scene really belonged in this episode to be honest, it wasn't a good time for Kara to be trying to teach Clark to fly - they had more important issues to deal with


i do blame the writers. i blame them completely for screwing up who Clark Kent is

i also agree with you that it was a pointless scene and they were wasting time. but i dont think him trying would have made him seem more weak. he was too afraid to even give it a go.

----- Added 7 Minutes later -----



5) It's well established that Chloe does all the techie stuff for Clark, why does it suddenly make Clark un-supermanly in this instance?
6) Seriously, Clark had no reason to listen to Lionel. You try being locked up and tortured by someone you thought you knew and could trust and see how easy it is to listen to what they have to say. Besides Clark was looking for Lana, Lionel was wasting his time at that point.


Clark shouldnt constantly rely on other people to have all the answers. Chloe is always providing the answers yes, but i hate it. he's become so used to her never letting him down that he takes it for granted that she will always get the info and get it right

and i think clark did have a reason to listen to Lionel in the midst of this crisis, as his information might have helped! yes its hard to even look at Lionel after everything, but common sense would take over

----- Added 9 Minutes later -----



7) To me Clark was overcome with emotion, which is why he didn't say any of those things. This is not uncommon for superman, didn't he collapse and cry or something in one of the superman films when Lois Lane died before he flew around the world backwards to reverse time and bring her back to life?? Clark can't fly and doesn't know where Brainiac has taken Kara if he'd said those things he would be making empty promises. He closed Lana's eyes and touched her cheek out of tenderness and caring for her, he couldn't stand to see her like that.



i just wanted to see some determination that he would make it right. not him giving up. shutting someone's eyes like that signifies death, which scared alot of people, but to me it showed he had given up

superman breaking down in the movie was amazing, and he screamed and then he was filled with determination and literally moved the earth to save her... thats superman!

----- Added 12 Minutes later -----



8) Honestly what could the Justice League have done in this situation? They don't have Clark's powers and Brainiac does plus he can fly. Why would Clark put their lives in danger as well - if anything by NOT calling them he WAS being supermanly and protecting them from harm. Similarly what could Lionel have done to help?? besides which Clark had no reason to trust Lionel and the bridge between him and Lex is now just a couple of burnt tinder sticks

i'm not sure anyone could have helped either. i just think it was irrisponsible of him to try and handle it alone, when he is obviously not good enough. JL helping would of couse have helped... the more fire power the better you know? and the luthors have money, if he had asked lionel, or even lex, they might have gotten lana the best care, found him information on the co ordinates that brainiac headed in blah blah

anyones help would have been better than just letting it all happen

[clarkbunny]

^^
OK just a quick one in response to point 8, what could Clark have told Lex about what had happened to Lana? It wouldn't have been worth the hassle trying to ask for his help.
There is no way in hell Clark would explain Brainiac to Lex not without risking exposing himself and Kara.

Maybe he can ask Oliver Queen for assistance - this may yet happen in next week's episode.

It would have been pointless and irresponsible calling in the JL to help him as instead of just having Lana's life put in danger he could have been risking theirs and they would be ill equiped to defend themselves against Brainiac who could easily kill them. If you want fire power he had the best assistance/fire power right there with him - Kara. What did she do? - NOTHING, she went quietly. Where are all the haters on Kara not acting supergirl like and kicking Brainiac's ass? Brainiac had them both by putting Lana's life at risk they were both powerless to do anything this does not make them lesser people for it.

[Hopefulsuicide]

i'd say something about Kara if i cared about supergirl. but i dont tbh. Clark Kent is my favourite character in the whole world. I was brought up watching Lois and Clark. I watched it so much i feel like that Clark Kent was a father figure (didnt have a dad around) so i feel very strongly about Clark's portrayal.

calling in the JL would not have been risking their lives any more than not calling them in. the whole world might be in danger... or at least thats the impression im getting.

then again, he never helps them, so why would they stick their neck out for him?

[Rose etta]

dru-zod2501

"...son of Jor-El, you're even more worthless than the sapien scum you hide with"
Word, because it's exactly what I was thinking.

Jack-El49

One only has to recall the events of Reckoning to realize the impact that hasty decisions have on those around Clark.

Waaaay too over-thought: if my Cousin was being manipulated into accompanying my more-powerful freakin Mortal Enemy, I would lasso her ankle - jump up and fly from sheer desperation - grab a hold of a barn owl... anything, to stay with her to keep her safe.

Clark lost major man-cred, there. Heck, Human-cred, even - it's just pathetic.

You folks aren't telling me you'd out-do yourselves to keep a loved one from harm? What's to keep Kara from suffering a similar fate to Lana? Clark has to cross his fingers and hope she manages to stay safe - with the same demon he himself can't even vanquish. Yup, yup - real heroic, there.

[Dojj]

i understand why people are disappointed and angry at clark not being able to fly and all, but this is a series, not a movie and they have to prolong the story arcs. Also, Clark is still a smallville farmboy at heart who hasnt accepted a role as a hero yet. The need to fly has not been there....well, until now...we will see how the writers progress clark from here...

Despite this, however, i too am disappointed at clark and his seeming helplessness despite all his powers (that he doesnt use). I would greatly appreciate if the writers threw in the odd scene of clark honing his powers, or practicing using them just to show he is more powerful than he was 6 seasons ago...

----- Added 5 Minutes later -----


dru-zod2501

Word, because it's exactly what I was thinking.

Jack-El49


Waaaay too over-thought: if my Cousin was being manipulated into accompanying my more-powerful freakin Mortal Enemy, I would lasso her ankle - jump up and fly from sheer desperation - grab a hold of a barn owl... anything, to stay with her to keep her safe.

Clark lost major man-cred, there. Heck, Human-cred, even - it's just pathetic.

You folks aren't telling me you'd out-do yourselves to keep a loved one from harm? What's to keep Kara from suffering a similar fate to Lana? Clark has to cross his fingers and hope she manages to stay safe - with the same demon he himself can't even vanquish. Yup, yup - real heroic, there.

I agree, that was a great time to get clark flying. It would have shown his fearlessness in the face of danger to others - a major characteristic of Superman. How much better (tho more expensive) would the scene have been if clark had flown (hell even jumped) to meet brainiac with kara, but was pushed back down to earth by them both (kara protecting him)

My feeling is, they were planning for clark to fly in the series finale / s8 premiere, but since this episode was changed to a mid-season one, they edited it so that he doesnt end up flying. Isnt it until season 8 that clark isnt allowed to fly?

[Season7Rocks]

I vote no. Not flying doesn't make him not Supermanly, since he doesn't know how yet. Not listening to Lionel isn't that much different than times I've seen in comics and other animated shows when Lex has needed Superman's help and Superman's first instinct is that Lex is trying to do something evil. Clark has been performing much more Superman-like duties, such as fighting Braniac, Bizarro, Zod, as well as helping with repairs after "Black Sunday" and capturing the Zoners in Season 6. He was just sitting around on a farm wanting Lana and occasionally saving friends who were getting themselves into trouble, before. He even went to the FOS this season to start training, even if Jor-El did start him out with something easy.

[nenaj]

i voted for yes.I dont anderstude how hi don't know to fly wen in 5 seasone epizode 3 he know to fly.

[DreadShamus]

He's been further from Superman, but he is really not too close.

[last man of krypton]

I don't see his lack of flying as making him less Supermanly, but I did think he acted very Superman-like in his first scene, grabbing Brainiac and throwing him. Yes, he's thrown goons before. Hundreds of times. But something about it made me yell out, "that's what happens when you touch Superman's cousin!". Could've been the lack of warning, the certainty with which he did it, or that Brainiac was hurtled at superspeed, destroying property. But it was something I'd expect Superman to do.

[Sweetie]

I don't even care if he flies or not.But,what I don't understand is why they want to make him look more and more stupid on each episode.He's a big goof ball and his loser's attitude isn't helping either.He's so mopy all the time,complaining about Jor-El and the all world.He doesn't go to college,he is not interested in journalism.Yes,he saves people when he has too,not because he wants to.Since the beginning of the show he keeps regressing from brave farm boy to a big joke...Isn't supposed to be the opposite?I hope Brainiac will give him the lesson of his lifetime so he will wake up already!!!

[HalJordan4184]

Clark has been performing much more Superman-like duties, such as fighting Braniac, Bizarro, Zod, as well as helping with repairs after "Black Sunday" and capturing the Zoners in Season 6. He was just sitting around on a farm wanting Lana and occasionally saving friends who were getting themselves into trouble, before. He even went to the FOS this season to start training, even if Jor-El did start him out with something easy.

Do we remember why CLark started performing these more Supermanly duties? It wasn't because the world was in danger, and needed saving. It's because Clark didn't do anything to prevent the horrible, earth threatening danger in the first place, because he just sits around the farm with Lana. The Zoners, and Brainiac, and all that, came because Clark didn't do what he was supposed to, because he was trying to delude himself into thinking he could ignore all the dire warnings from just about everyone, and then lo and behold, the sky literally falls, and super havoc is wreaked on Earth. And CLark sits there and says, oh man, this is all my fault.

AND YES IT WAS! The BDA couldn't even step up when he was told the world was in danger. He only stepped up, when that danger literally landed on his doorstep.

[Theshadow129x]

Do we remember why CLark started performing these more Supermanly duties? It wasn't because the world was in danger, and needed saving. It's because Clark didn't do anything to prevent the horrible, earth threatening danger in the first place, because he just sits around the farm with Lana. The Zoners, and Brainiac, and all that, came because Clark didn't do what he was supposed to, because he was trying to delude himself into thinking he could ignore all the dire warnings from just about everyone, and then lo and behold, the sky literally falls, and super havoc is wreaked on Earth. And CLark sits there and says, oh man, this is all my fault.

AND YES IT WAS! The BDA couldn't even step up when he was told the world was in danger. He only stepped up, when that danger literally landed on his doorstep.

Hal I swear I love reading your post man because they are so true. Everything that has transpired in the past couple of season is Clark's fault. He wouldn't dare do anything unless the sky is literally falling and he blames himself for what is happening because it is his fault. It would be fine if he attempted to save the world but failed, instead he just decides to be passive and not doing anything until the last second when the entire planet is in danger and is about to be destroyed. Im sick of it

[m8918]

the episode completely sucked, clark didn't try to stop anything from happening. HE DIDN'T FLY, i mean come on it's about time CW. he flew in crusade on the first episode of season 4. but that was kal-el not clark. i like kara, she's only just come back as her usual self, now she's gone again.

clark needs to learn everything from jor-el and find brainiac and kick his ass, not a boring fight scene on the ground, but an aerial battle, with kara and chloe watching from below. what makes me start to dislike smallville now, is it says one thing in the description but it never happens in the episode.

i like smallville very much, but now it's slipping into a boring phase which im afraid it wont recover from. out of all the seasons, season 5 was the best. it had none of the can't be bothered acting in it like season 7.

[All about Clark]

I'm not dissappointed in Clark in this episode. When Braniac first showed up, Clark needed to let Kara know what they were up against, he couldn't just run off.

Being that Chloe and Clark didn't know where he was there was nothing to do but wait til he showed somewhere. It was good that Clark got to Lana before anything more happened, like burning the house down with Lana in it. When Kara volunteered to go with Braniac so no one else would be hurt, there was really nothing Clark could do, anything he did against Braniac would have just had Braniac hurting someone else. Everything was being done to hurt Clark, so I feel like now is the time for Clark to react by going to the fortress for advice. I don't think there was something he should have done and didn't. He got Lana help and he knows he has a problem. I don't consider Lionel's message meaning a thing. Clark and Chloe not listening to Lionel was meaningless. Clark knows there is trouble with Braniac taking Kara for some evil plan to get Zod back. He doesn't need Lionel to know this. He doesn't need Lionel at all. I may be very dissappointed if Clark doesn't chose to go to the fortress. But for right now, I am not dissappointed in Clark because I don't believe a different outcome could have happened.

[dru-zod2501]

Jor-El, maybe you should give Chloe Kryptonian abilities. At least she'd be better at using them. And Chloe flying would be hott!! lol

[Rose etta]

Sweetie

Since the beginning of the show he keeps regressing from brave farm boy to a big joke...Isn't supposed to be the opposite?
Yes, he's yo-yo!Clark. Real smart and brave, then real stoopid and wussy.
__________________
HalJordan4184

CLark sits there and says, oh man, this is all my fault. - AND YES IT WAS! The BDA couldn't even step up when he was told the world was in danger. He only stepped up, when that danger literally landed on his doorstep.
Good one, HJ, and congrats on the Mod-ship! :D
_________________
dru-zod2501

Jor-El, maybe you should give Chloe Kryptonian abilities. At least she'd be better at using them.
heh - yes, she has the most consistant set of huevos on the show.
________________

[clarkbunny]

Face it, there was nothing Clark could have done to change the outcome of this episode. He didn't sacrifice Kara to save Lana, Kara CHOSE to go with Brainiac. Kara has super powers too so she can take care of herself. Plus Brainiac made it clear from the beginning that he wanted Kara not Clark.

[dru-zod2501]

heh - yes, she has the most consistant set of huevos on the show.
not really. She's the most logical and intelligent person on the show no doubt, but sometimes she's way too "lil miss play-it-safe." The most consistant set belongs to Lois, a classic ILL trait if nothing else. (please forgive me Chloe!)

[Hopefulsuicide]

----- Added 30 Seconds later -----


Face it, there was nothing Clark could have done to change the outcome of this episode. He didn't sacrifice Kara to save Lana, Kara CHOSE to go with Brainiac. Kara has super powers too so she can take care of herself. Plus Brainiac made it clear from the beginning that he wanted Kara not Clark.

it doesn't matter whether he could have change it or not, Superman would have tried

[Theshadow129x]

----- Added 30 Seconds later -----



it doesn't matter whether he could have change it or not, Superman would have tried

so true. it doesnt matter if things were going to end up that way or not, if he is a great hero or savior he has to try to change tragic events no matter what. thats what he embodies and symbolizes, but he just let every thing go in this episode. Like i said, this episode showed me how useless Clark is on the show. I dont know why he didnt try to go after brainiac at the beginning of the show, even if he is flying he can still run and keep an eye on him and then he just let Kara go without any attempt to keep her home. its was pathetic

[jordeant1200]

clarks superman always

[All about Clark]

----- Added 30 Seconds later -----it doesn't matter whether he could have change it or not, Superman would have tried

He isn't Superman yet and never claimed to be. I honestly don't get how the audience/posters do not get that had Clark went up against Braniac that in the end someone else would get hurt. Clark doesn't know how to kill Braniac. He would simply devise another plan to hurt someone had Clark gone up against him. This way both Clark and Kara had one thing in mind and that is to not let anyone else get hurt. Now we just need the posters to accept that.

[Theshadow129x]

He isn't Superman yet and never claimed to be. I honestly don't get how the audience/posters do not get that had Clark went up against Braniac that in the end someone else would get hurt. Clark doesn't know how to kill Braniac. He would simply devise another plan to hurt someone had Clark gone up against him. This way both Clark and Kara had one thing in mind and that is to not let anyone else get hurt. Now we just need the posters to accept that.

Yeah, you're right. he isn't Superman yet. But the thing is that shouldn't keep in an apathetic state to do nothing. So what if Lana or someone else gets hurt. Its the fact that he himself must try to prevent someone else from getting hurt in anyway, even if he isnt successful at his attempt. Thats like saying you were at a red light and no cars were coming at the intersection so you decided to go anyways. Even though theres no cars coming it shouldnt keep you from doing the right thing and waiting for the light to turn green. If I let someone that hurt the one i love go then i would instantly be called out of my name because i let them go and people would claim it made me less of a man for not doing something. He had the chance to do some, he doesnt have to be superman but he could at least act like a man and do something for people he loves and care about.

[dru-zod2501]

He isn't Superman yet and never claimed to be. I honestly don't get how the audience/posters do not get that had Clark went up against Braniac that in the end someone else would get hurt. Clark doesn't know how to kill Braniac. He would simply devise another plan to hurt someone had Clark gone up against him. This way both Clark and Kara had one thing in mind and that is to not let anyone else get hurt. Now we just need the posters to accept that.
he seemed pretty gung ho about finding Brainy and taking the fight to him when he was berating lionel for his misdeeds, and when he was wussing out of a flying lesson... oh wait that was just empty posturing on his part... never mind. When he was on his own what did he do? "Chloe... please tell me you did the hard stuff for me again..."

[kalkent]

Clark was as he always is, neither less nor more 'Supermanly' than usual. Kara on the other hand was less than the 'Supergirl' she's supposed to be. For a girl in full control of her powers she seemed a little too keen to accept Brainiac's ultimatum.

[All about Clark]

Yeah, you're right. he isn't Superman yet. But the thing is that shouldn't keep in an apathetic state to do nothing. So what if Lana or someone else gets hurt. Its the fact that he himself must try to prevent someone else from getting hurt in anyway, even if he isnt successful at his attempt. Thats like saying you were at a red light and no cars were coming at the intersection so you decided to go anyways. Even though theres no cars coming it shouldnt keep you from doing the right thing and waiting for the light to turn green. If I let someone that hurt the one i love go then i would instantly be called out of my name because i let them go and people would claim it made me less of a man for not doing something. He had the chance to do some, he doesnt have to be superman but he could at least act like a man and do something for people he loves and care about.

However, Clark has done stuff and it was wrong and Clark paid dearly. I would rather he did nothing in order to have the time to figure it out (with Jor-el) what he should do, then to do something and it causes more damage and lives lost.

I would rather you tell me what you thought Clark should have done that would actually make a difference. Do you have some special knowledge on how to kill Braniac? Do you know how to interfere with Braniac's plan without getting people hurt? Something tells me you have no suggestions that will make a difference in the outcome. And it's kind of hard to battle Braniac's plan when you don't know what that plan is.

And if you thought that they should throw a few punches at each other and then call it a day, that's ridiculous, it serves no purpose. It would be easier for Braniac to kill Clark at this point, then it would be for Clark to kill Braniac. But Braniac knows he needs Clark because Clark is the only one who can operate the fortress, so therefore Braniac can't kill Clark.

[HalJordan4184]

Why is Clark looking to kill anything. that's very un Clark-like.

This CLark is not acting anything at all like a man, much less the man who is supposed to be Superman.

Clark Kent did not wake up one day, and decide to be Superman. He did not make a conscious choice one day in his life, that from that point on he was going to start saving people, after spending years on the sidelines, waiting for the proverbial bomb to fall in his lap before reacting.

Clark Kent should strive to do what is right. Had he even done that, we'd never even be here in the series, because Brainiac, the Zoners, Zod, and all of this never would have happened, because he wouldn't have continually tried to run away from the things he was continuously told needed done.

Clark doing nothing is pathetic. Should he have tried to stop Brainiac, even if it meant his death?

YES! That's what Superman does. It's not about his odds of winning. IT's about him caring enough to take a stand, against all odds, and do the right thing. Not do nothing, so that maybe later, after untold death and destruction, he might be able to stop the big bad down the line. What's the point of waiting, and figuring out the plan, if at that point, the plan is already in action? That makes no sense whatsoever. Clark is waiting for Brainiac to bring out the big deadly bad, which will undoubtedly equal big bad death to the tiny insignifigant people of Earth (AGAIN), because CLark couldn't develop some kind of preemptive plan, even after everyone keeps trying to push him to.

[dru-zod2501]

However, Clark has done stuff and it was wrong and Clark paid dearly. I would rather he did nothing in order to have the time to figure it out (with Jor-el) what he should do, then to do something and it causes more damage and lives lost.
by now you must realize that Clark doesn't give two flying farts what Jor-El says. He would never have thought of that, unless any of Chloe's other plans didn't work of course


I would rather you tell me what you thought Clark should have done that would actually make a difference. Do you have some special knowledge on how to kill Braniac? Do you know how to interfere with Braniac's plan without getting people hurt? Something tells me you have no suggestions that will make a difference in the outcome. And it's kind of hard to battle Braniac's plan when you don't know what that plan is.
you're right, I don't have any specific suggestions. As you said, deducing and strategizing for himself would be the best options, but sadly that didn't happen.

[All about Clark]

^But that's what Clark was doing, trying to figure out why he wanted Kara, for what purpose and what makes Braniac tick, looking for a weakness or a way to track him.

----- Added 10 Minutes later -----


YES! That's what Superman does. It's not about his odds of winning. IT's about him caring enough to take a stand, against all odds, and do the right thing. Not do nothing, so that maybe later, after untold death and destruction, he might be able to stop the big bad down the line. What's the point of waiting, and figuring out the plan, if at that point, the plan is already in action? That makes no sense whatsoever. Clark is waiting for Brainiac to bring out the big deadly bad, which will undoubtedly equal big bad death to the tiny insignifigant people of Earth (AGAIN), because CLark couldn't develop some kind of preemptive plan, even after everyone keeps trying to push him to.

But he at least needs to know how to proceed and this Clark at this time doesn't know how to proceed. He doesn't know what to do about Braniac. It's not about odds of winning. This Clark would give up his life right now to keep people safe, it's not about that, it's about what is it he needs to do, he's not sure because most things he does do tend to backfire on him.

Again, what preemptive plan? The only thing that makes sense to me is to go to Jor-el. Because Clark doesn't know how to stop Braniac or hurt his plan.

[Hopefulsuicide]

people seem to be focusing on the fact that he isn't superman yet

well in my opinion, he isn't Clark Kent either. forget about all the saving people stuff, and the flying around in a cape and being brave. if you seperated the two identities, Clark Kent is still an amazing person

he is talented, ambitious, really cares about people, independant, unshakeably honest and up front, kind, generous etc etc

i dont remember one single time before Smallville came along that i ever thought badly of Clark Kent. he was always a decent intellegent guy.

so i don't think Smallville's CK is simply less Superman that ever, but less Clark Kent than ever too

[jazel]

SV's CK, only NEEDS, 14 years to embrace Superman. :(

[Yasise]

^But that's what Clark was doing, trying to figure out why he wanted Kara, for what purpose and what makes Braniac tick, looking for a weakness or a way to track him.

----- Added 10 Minutes later -----

But he at least needs to know how to proceed and this Clark at this time doesn't know how to proceed. He doesn't know what to do about Braniac. It's not about odds of winning. This Clark would give up his life right now to keep people safe, it's not about that, it's about what is it he needs to do, he's not sure because most things he does do tend to backfire on him.

Again, what preemptive plan? The only thing that makes sense to me is to go to Jor-el. Because Clark doesn't know how to stop Braniac or hurt his plan.

Yes, I agree. The Clark Kent of Smallville isn't the Clark Kent of the Superman movies yet. IMO, he's totally confused and simply doesn't know what it is like to be a 100% kryptonian, because he didn't grow up among them.
He grew up among humans, hiding his powers all his life but nevertheless trying to do the best with them. Then all of a sudden real kryptonians came along and they weren't exactly what you call trustworthy or friendly.
Kara, who is supposed to be a family member wasn't much helpful either, IMO.
Not to speak of Jor-El and the FOS.
So, how could Clark possibly not be confused about his heritage and his destiny? How could he not be unsure of what to do, when, as you said before, everything he does tend to backfire on him?
Things like that don't help to create much of a selfconfidence, do they? Then again, he's supposed to make mistakes, to learn from them but when he makes mistakes, everyone is complaining that he's far away from becoming superman.

I don't know, but I guess, we're expecting too much from him, not keeping in mind the circumstances he lived in and still is living in.
It's confusing enough to get through "normal" human puberty but he had to deal with so much else than a normal human life has to offer. And of course it didn't help either to stretch these issues over so many seasons

Oh, and btw, I also guess, that Clark has no other choice than to go to the FOS. No human can give him an advice now, even Chloe can't, how to deal with Brainiac or how to help Lana. The only one, who possibly could is Jor-El.

[HalJordan4184]

Where did this idea come up, that CLark needs to learn how to be Kryptonian?

Superman is not who he is, because he learned how to be a good little Kryptonian from Jor-El. Clark Kent learned what he needed to learn, in order to become Superman, form Jonathon and Martha Kent. They taught him morals, and respect for life, and the people who live it. That's what Superman is about. There isn't any embracing an alien culture. Superman is who he is, because he grew up among humans. Being biologically Kryptonian, doesn't factor anywhere into his wanting to help people. Being biologically Kryptonian, just gave him the ability to help so many more poeple, and on a much bigger scale, than Clark Kent, normal human could have.

Clark does not need Jor-El to become Superman. He doesn't need training in the fortress. What he needs, is what Jon and Martha gave him. Smallville's Clark isn't trying, he's avoiding. The reason he has the problems he does, is from running away everytime something bad happens, and then blaming other people for things. He let the zoners out. He didn't get the crystals in time. He is the reason Brainiac made it to Earth. Clark isn't going to be the Superman of the movies, or comics or anything else, because he doesn't act like them at all. He acts like a scared 8 year old kid. Unfortunately, he's 21 years old now, and he should be on the path, not fighting even the trip to get on the path.

[Yasise]

Where did this idea come up, that Clark needs to learn how to be Kryptonian?


Maybe I explained it wrong. I didn't mean he has to become a kryptonian, I meant that all the other kryptonians or aliens, like Jor-El, Kara, MM etc. expects him to be more kryptonian. But how is he supposed to be more or even 100% kryptonian, that's impossible, because he never lived among them.
I meant it like that, not that he needs to be it. Sorry, sometimes it's hard to get it out right.
Is it clear now?

And I don't think that he's avoiding. He's trying to do the best he can, or the best he thinks is, even if he doesn't think it through good enough before. So unfortunately many problems he wanted to solve turned out to go totally wrong, e.g. in the end of season 2, when he destroyed the spaceship.
He always wants the best and often he makes all worse in the end.

[redRound]

The only time Clark is pro-active, is when he's barging into Lex's office to mouth off. But now that he's no longer welcome, he's completely passive to the events that unfold around him.

[Khyla]

...What grinds me is that this was the one episode when the chips were really down, and what does Clark do? he outsources the hero work for Kara and Chloe. Did he track down any leads on his own? no. Did he at any point stop to think things through, try to understand what the hell's going on? no. Did he NOT guilt himself into submission? of course not. He had his hands full chasing Lana and his tail all episode. Or maybe, just maybe even consider that Lionel might have info? Lying magnificent bastard? yea maybe, but that doesn't change the fact that he knows stuff.
Agree! He was so caught up in Lanaland that he forgot about the time Brainiac disguised himself as Clark's dead father and told him he had to "KILL Lionel Luthor". Wouldn't that have been a clue that Lionel potentially may be a resourceful weapon against Brainiac? :\

i think the writers are trying to drive it home, once again :\ , that when Lana has anything to do with it, Clark loses his judgement. That she's just no good for him in any way, shape, or form.


Did anyone else notice that look of disgust, and contempt, and pity Brainy shot him just before he flew off? I could almost hear him say "son of Jor-El, you're even more worthless than the sapien scum you hide with"
yes.

[Hopefulsuicide]

Where did this idea come up, that CLark needs to learn how to be Kryptonian?

Superman is not who he is, because he learned how to be a good little Kryptonian from Jor-El. Clark Kent learned what he needed to learn, in order to become Superman, form Jonathon and Martha Kent. They taught him morals, and respect for life, and the people who live it. That's what Superman is about. There isn't any embracing an alien culture. Superman is who he is, because he grew up among humans. Being biologically Kryptonian, doesn't factor anywhere into his wanting to help people. Being biologically Kryptonian, just gave him the ability to help so many more poeple, and on a much bigger scale, than Clark Kent, normal human could have.

Clark does not need Jor-El to become Superman. He doesn't need training in the fortress. What he needs, is what Jon and Martha gave him. Smallville's Clark isn't trying, he's avoiding. The reason he has the problems he does, is from running away everytime something bad happens, and then blaming other people for things. He let the zoners out. He didn't get the crystals in time. He is the reason Brainiac made it to Earth. Clark isn't going to be the Superman of the movies, or comics or anything else, because he doesn't act like them at all. He acts like a scared 8 year old kid. Unfortunately, he's 21 years old now, and he should be on the path, not fighting even the trip to get on the path.

couldn't have said it better myself :)

----- Added 4 Minutes later -----


The only time Clark is pro-active, is when he's barging into Lex's office to mouth off. But now that he's no longer welcome, he's completely passive to the events that unfold around him.

:lol:

i always hated it when he did that. it just made him look like an arrogant fool, and the fact that Lex took it for so long shows that was is a bigger person than Clark

it always felt almost as though he felt he had the right to acuse Lex of all these things just because he was the only person to ever sort of be a friend to him... like he could get away with being an arse because Lex would let him get away with it

he totally used that

when Lex was suspected of something, Clark would barge in
when Clark needed something, Clark would barge in

when Clark was supsected of something, Lex would come round to the barn, subtly hint that he should come clean by expressing the trust between them 'you know you can trust me right?' and then apologise if he was wrong

Clark rarely apologised for how rude he was to lex

[dru-zod2501]

i always hated it when he did that. it just made him look like an arrogant fool, and the fact that Lex took it for so long shows that was is a bigger person than Clark

it always felt almost as though he felt he had the right to acuse Lex of all these things just because he was the only person to ever sort of be a friend to him... like he could get away with being an arse because Lex would let him get away with it

he totally used that

when Lex was suspected of something, Clark would barge in
when Clark needed something, Clark would barge in

when Clark was supsected of something, Lex would come round to the barn, subtly hint that he should come clean by expressing the trust between them 'you know you can trust me right?' and then apologise if he was wrong

Clark rarely apologised for how rude he was to lex
cause it probably never occured to him to do so, moron that he is; just like it never occurred to him how his ****ups helped push this Lex down path to the dark side

[Yasise]

.....................
when Lex was suspected of something, Clark would barge in
when Clark needed something, Clark would barge in

when Clark was supsected of something, Lex would come round to the barn, subtly hint that he should come clean by expressing the trust between them 'you know you can trust me right?' and then apologise if he was wrong

Clark rarely apologised for how rude he was to lex

I have to agree with you there. Clark's manners are not the best sometimes.
I wouldn't like it at all, if my best friend always rip opens my doors without knocking before and waiting for a "Come in", when he comes to visit me. Even if Clark has any reason to be angry with Lex, there's no point of showing such bad manners.

[Theshadow129x]

Where did this idea come up, that CLark needs to learn how to be Kryptonian?

Superman is not who he is, because he learned how to be a good little Kryptonian from Jor-El. Clark Kent learned what he needed to learn, in order to become Superman, form Jonathon and Martha Kent. They taught him morals, and respect for life, and the people who live it. That's what Superman is about. There isn't any embracing an alien culture. Superman is who he is, because he grew up among humans. Being biologically Kryptonian, doesn't factor anywhere into his wanting to help people. Being biologically Kryptonian, just gave him the ability to help so many more poeple, and on a much bigger scale, than Clark Kent, normal human could have.

Clark does not need Jor-El to become Superman. He doesn't need training in the fortress. What he needs, is what Jon and Martha gave him. Smallville's Clark isn't trying, he's avoiding. The reason he has the problems he does, is from running away everytime something bad happens, and then blaming other people for things. He let the zoners out. He didn't get the crystals in time. He is the reason Brainiac made it to Earth. Clark isn't going to be the Superman of the movies, or comics or anything else, because he doesn't act like them at all. He acts like a scared 8 year old kid. Unfortunately, he's 21 years old now, and he should be on the path, not fighting even the trip to get on the path.

This is true. The fact that training is involved in the show for him to be a superhero is utterly ridiculous. He has his abilities he just needs to will himself into using them appropriately. he doesnt apply himself to anything he just sits on the farm working and worrying about what screwdriver to use for his tractor since dry cow poo messed up the insides of the machine.

I'm actually hating teh evolution of Clark Kent on Smallville because he hasnt progressed, he's actually regressed compared to where the show was when it first started. You're right, HalJordan, everything that has come since season 4 has been his fault and he doesnt deal with anything until everyone's lives are endanger, other than that he doesnt give a damn about crap. its not super heroic, its cowardice.

[darkkrypton81]

Smallville has got to be perhaps the longest running Superman tv series thus far. As of now, I don't even know what this show is even about anymore.

This Clark totally pales in comparison to all the other Superman incarnations. He's not even close to becoming the world's greatest defender and it's absolutley pathetic.

[Dor el]

Clark doing nothing is pathetic. Should he have tried to stop Brainiac, even if it meant his death?

YES! That's what Superman does. It's not about his odds of winning. IT's about him caring enough to take a stand, against all odds, and do the right thing. Not do nothing, so that maybe later, after untold death and destruction, he might be able to stop the big bad down the line. What's the point of waiting, and figuring out the plan, if at that point, the plan is already in action? That makes no sense whatsoever. Clark is waiting for Brainiac to bring out the big deadly bad, which will undoubtedly equal big bad death to the tiny insignifigant people of Earth (AGAIN), because CLark couldn't develop some kind of preemptive plan, even after everyone keeps trying to push him to.

And what good what a dead Clark have done? It would have left a big bad villain free to have his way with the world. At this point, Clark is the only one who has even a remote chance of stopping/destroying Brainiac. But, even a superpowered guy needs to have a plan sometimes. This seems like a good time to me. I do not think that for one minute Clark put his life before any one else's. That would be very unsupermanlike. It would have been stupid to die and serve no purpose, because his death in defeat by Brainiac would not have made the world safer.

[Yasise]

And what good what a dead Clark have done? It would have left a big bad villain free to have his way with the world. At this point, Clark is the only one who has even a remote chance of stopping/destroying Brainiac. But, even a superpowered guy needs to have a plan sometimes. This seems like a good time to me. I do not think that for one minute Clark put his life before any one else's. That would be very unsupermanlike. It would have been stupid to die and serve no purpose, because his death in defeat by Brainiac would not have made the world safer.

Totally agreed :)

[Dor el]

i think the writers are trying to drive it home, once again :\ , that when Lana has anything to do with it, Clark loses his judgement. That she's just no good for him in any way, shape, or form.

I got it. Hopefully soon, so will Clark.

[Cogito17]

I have read and debated this argument about Clark's "supermanliness" too many times to want to articulate an argument. Yes, it is important to note that Clark has flaws. Anyone who cannot acknowledge this is probably jaded by fandom or simply blind to those weaknesses. However, its equally important to acknowledge that Clark has many virtues and strengths. People who cannot accept this or repeatedly ignore it are every bit as jaded and blind as people who can't accept his weaknesses. He's not perfect, but he isn't the miserable failure people like to make him out to be.

[Hopefulsuicide]

i don't agree with a perfect Clark one bit. i am of the group of Superman fans who like him when he's portrayed more human than kryptonian.

as i've said before, it's the humanity i love, and it's supposed to be the humanity that makes him such a good superhero... while humanity definately comes with flaws, superman is a good, intellegent, brave and aspiring person.

i don't believe most people on this thread are argueing that smallville's CK not being supermanly enough is because he is not perfect

it's just that he isn't showing a character that is more than AVERAGE, when he is supposed to be SUPER, and i don't just mean bench pressing cars.

[All about Clark]

Smallville has got to be perhaps the longest running Superman tv series thus far. As of now, I don't even know what this show is even about anymore.

This Clark totally pales in comparison to all the other Superman incarnations. He's not even close to becoming the world's greatest defender and it's absolutley pathetic.

I agree and disagree with parts of this. I feel that TPTB have got Clark so scared to make a wrong action that he stalls at making any action for fear of choosing wrong. That TPTB have Clark in a stall development wise, which is clearly got us thinking what is this show about anymore. What I don't agree with is that Clark should be equal to other Superman incarnations, because he clearly isn't Superman right now. He might have powers but he doesn't seem to know what to do with them when things get complicated. TPTB have shown us that Clark is not Superman until he gets his sh!t together and starts making the right choices and making those choices on instinct. I am however disappointed with TPTB have had Clark so (stupid) S6 and S7. It's about time he started functioning as someone with a brain and I feel that this is Al/Miles doing. Maybe S8 will be better on this.

[Dor el]

Help me out here. Is SV not the first/only story about Clark's life from age 14 to 25? I am not an expert on this subject and readily admit this. However, if this is the first formal telling of the story about Clark during these years, how can we tell what Clark should and/or should not be during this time. We have an idea of who young Clark was (Superboy) and who older adult Clark is (Superman). There may be a mismatch here, but maybe SV is explaining what went on, during those years, that made Clark the hero we all know and love. How can we say what this aged Clark would or would not do? How can we say that this aged Clark is not who he should be? It occurs to me that we all are a product of everything that has occurred in our lives up to the current moment. Given this premise, the things that are happening to Clark maybe all contribute to the eventual Clark/Superman.

Plus, many bad outcomes have happened as a result of Clark's rash/ill executed decisions. Perhaps, he has learned to think before going off half cocked. If he jumps into something, if is criticized. If he waits, he is criticized. Clark is not perfect. Neither is Superman (but he does come pretty close in my estimation).

[Theshadow129x]

And what good what a dead Clark have done? It would have left a big bad villain free to have his way with the world. At this point, Clark is the only one who has even a remote chance of stopping/destroying Brainiac. But, even a superpowered guy needs to have a plan sometimes. This seems like a good time to me. I do not think that for one minute Clark put his life before any one else's. That would be very unsupermanlike. It would have been stupid to die and serve no purpose, because his death in defeat by Brainiac would not have made the world safer.

I value your opinion however Clark is taking any time to plan. He's going to mourn and moan and whine like he always does. Thats what we were shown at the end of this episode. His mourning. And you think Clark value's others lives before his? In the earlier seasons yes, he did. But Clark tells everyone week to week that he doesnt want to live his life saving others, thats why he's still on the farm. Clark wasn't thinking about anyone else when he inserted the blue crystal in the fortress in the episode "Blue". He wasn't think about others when Jor-el told him the fate of the world rested in his hands to find the crystals before someone got their hands on them. Clark didn't put anyone first when Lex was chosen to be Zod's vessel because it was hard for him to kill one person for the sake of many. there are tons of things I could say about this guy that makes him less superman like. I guess what im saying is Clark doesnt think and rarely does he ever act at the appropriate time for action. Why does he have to wait and see what Brainiac is doing? theres no reason for him to do so because Brainiac isnt the type of villain that explains his plans before commencing total damnation. he's the kind that executes it first then gloats about it after people have already been sacrificed and died for it to come to its fruition. He should have acted to at least stop brainiac before Kara or anyone else had to be sacrificed. Sitting still and mourning while an Apocalypse is on the way isn't superman like to me to be honest

[dunkman]

Why are so many people negative toward Smallville's Clark Kent? He has always put caring for others/doing what's right first, just like the Clark Kent we should expect. (He still needs to adopt his nerdiness, but I think that's coming.) He was raised by humans, so he thinks like a human, & he's taking time to figure out how to do a lot of difficult things. What would you have done in his situation - try to kill the one "person" who could heal Lana?
He doesn't know how to defeat Brainiac yet - but what's all this talk of him killing him (it)? Superman doesn't kill! (Whether or not an artificial intelligence counts as a living thing to begin with is up for debate, of course...)

[Cogito17]

i don't agree with a perfect Clark one bit. i am of the group of Superman fans who like him when he's portrayed more human than kryptonian.


Sorry, I didn't mean to insinuate that people are asking for a perfect Clark Kent. I'm more trying to say that people get so caught up in all the things that are wrong with Clark, that oftentimes they ignore/don't notice that he has many good/superman-like qualities. And while he may not be quite what some people want, he isn't as bad as people sometimes make him out to be. It's a disservice to the character to ignore his faults, but its also a disservice to ignore his virtues.

Not directing this at you, or anyone in particular, but people get so caught up in their debates proving all thats wrong with Clark, that they forget his many redeeming qualities.

[Yasise]

Help me out here. Is SV not the first/only story about Clark's life from age 14 to 25? I am not an expert on this subject and readily admit this. However, if this is the first formal telling of the story about Clark during these years, how can we tell what Clark should and/or should not be during this time. We have an idea of who young Clark was (Superboy) and who older adult Clark is (Superman). There may be a mismatch here, but maybe SV is explaining what went on, during those years, that made Clark the hero we all know and love. How can we say what this aged Clark would or would not do? How can we say that this aged Clark is not who he should be? It occurs to me that we all are a product of everything that has occurred in our lives up to the current moment. Given this premise, the things that are happening to Clark maybe all contribute to the eventual Clark/Superman.

Plus, many bad outcomes have happened as a result of Clark's rash/ill executed decisions. Perhaps, he has learned to think before going off half cocked. If he jumps into something, if is criticized. If he waits, he is criticized. Clark is not perfect. Neither is Superman (but he does come pretty close in my estimation).

Again I've to totally agree with you, Dor-El :)


Sorry, I didn't mean to insinuate that people are asking for a perfect Clark Kent. I'm more trying to say that people get so caught up in all the things that are wrong with Clark, that oftentimes they ignore/don't notice that he has many good/superman-like qualities. And while he may not be quite what some people want, he isn't as bad as people sometimes make him out to be. It's a disservice to the character to ignore his faults, but its also a disservice to ignore his virtues.

Not directing this at you, or anyone in particular, but people get so caught up in their debates proving all thats wrong with Clark, that they forget his many redeeming qualities.

Agreed here, too :)

[dunkman]

I value your opinion however Clark is taking any time to plan. He's going to mourn and moan and whine like he always does. Thats what we were shown at the end of this episode. His mourning. And you think Clark value's others lives before his? In the earlier seasons yes, he did. But Clark tells everyone week to week that he doesnt want to live his life saving others, thats why he's still on the farm. Clark wasn't thinking about anyone else when he inserted the blue crystal in the fortress in the episode "Blue". He wasn't think about others when Jor-el told him the fate of the world rested in his hands to find the crystals before someone got their hands on them. Clark didn't put anyone first when Lex was chosen to be Zod's vessel because it was hard for him to kill one person for the sake of many. there are tons of things I could say about this guy that makes him less superman like. I guess what im saying is Clark doesnt think and rarely does he ever act at the appropriate time for action. Why does he have to wait and see what Brainiac is doing? theres no reason for him to do so because Brainiac isnt the type of villain that explains his plans before commencing total damnation. he's the kind that executes it first then gloats about it after people have already been sacrificed and died for it to come to its fruition. He should have acted to at least stop brainiac before Kara or anyone else had to be sacrificed. Sitting still and mourning while an Apocalypse is on the way isn't superman like to me to be honest

How is Clark's not wanting to "kill one person for the sake of many" un-Superman-like? Superman only killed once to save billions of people, & after that he could never do it again for any reason. It totally fits with Superman's character that Clark didn't want to kill his former best friend!

[HalJordan4184]

Smallville is not the first time we have ever been given a glimpse of teenage Clark. We have many stories post crisis about how Clark was as a teenager in Smallville. The entire Conduit arc was about a teenage rivalry Clark didn't even know existed, but led to the creation of a supervillain, who's sole purpose, was to finally show up the great Clark Kent.

One problem Smallville has, is that it tried to mix Superboy, and the post crisis Clark. Pre Crisis, we had Superboy, with Clark running around, being a mini Superman all the time. Which worked with how Superman was portrayed at the time, and fit with the story as time went on.

Smallville gave Clark the superboy story, except for how Clark act's, and how his powers are developing over time. Then it did things like make jonathon and martha out to be paranoid, to the point of forbidding Clark to use his powers, lest the government take him away. Morality seemed to get replaced with let's blame the luthor's for everything attitudes, and jonathon being a hypocrite in terms of advice given versus actions taken.

Smallville tried to make their own version of how CLark Kent grew up, while continually, from the producers own mouths, saying it doesn't matter what they do, cause ultimately we know the end. That's been their justification from the first time they did something contrary to any previous incarnation of Clark Kent's morals.

I'm not saying I want a perfect Clark Kent, even Superman isn't perfect. However, he strives to be, and it's not because he was a failure as a teenager, and had a horrible life, rife with tragedy. Smallville has changed the motivations, and actions of the man who is supposed to be Superman, but tried to say at the same time, they didn't change a thing.

[All about Clark]

It just seems to me that the Superman comics fans are against this Clark and are bothered enough to only see his bad qualities, not his good ones.

I agree with HalJordon that TPTB are trying to go from a harsh teenage/young adult years to arriving at the same point-Superman which is extremely difficult and I haven't exactly liked everything they have done, however, I refuse to ignore some really good qualities in this Clark. And I really expected more out of Clark in season 7. However, I really like the idea that our Superman has experienced alot and has many experiences that help him to choose the right course of action.

So in essense, this thread is starting to feel like the comics fans vs. the Smallville fans.

[Dor el]

However, I really like the idea that our Superman has experienced alot and has many experiences that help him to choose the right course of action.

I agree.

[annericelover]

In this episode we got to see that Clark, as old as he is and as experienced as he has become since the beginning, still needs to grow into his destiny. We can't have him ready to fly already, than have Season 8. Season 8 is when he should take flight. In the series he has never really been pushed this far, by any villain. So when Kara tells Clark, he needs to fly, he brushes it off, because he is still scared of what may happen if he let's his complete Kryptonian self emerge(up until now, his Kal-El persona is a bit of a villain). Lana being lobotomized and Kara disappearing is a great way to start his final journey to finally becoming Superman(without the outfit). Up until now, Clark has always had someone to pick up the hard slack, in one way or another, now with Kara gone(and his only flying partner)he needs to step up.

[The Ship!]

In this episode we got to see that Clark, as old as he is and as experienced as he has become since the beginning, still needs to grow into his destiny. We can't have him ready to fly already, than have Season 8. Season 8 is when he should take flight. In the series he has never really been pushed this far, by any villain. So when Kara tells Clark, he needs to fly, he brushes it off, because he is still scared of what may happen if he let's his complete Kryptonian self emerge(up until now, his Kal-El persona is a bit of a villain). Lana being lobotomized and Kara disappearing is a great way to start his final journey to finally becoming Superman(without the outfit). Up until now, Clark has always had someone to pick up the hard slack, in one way or another, now with Kara gone(and his only flying partner)he needs to step up.

I totally disagree. The issue i have had with this so call hero isn't about his abilities to fly or to be "the hero". My issue is that CK is a hypocrit. And the weird and disturbing part is that this elements is supposed to show his humanity. I think morally it is wrong for the writers to go that path. There are many qualities in humans that are stronger than any powers SUperman has. Look at BATMAN!

Anyway, i have just about given up on the writers and producers of this show, the way they have stripped this character of any thing that can make us look up to him at all. Look around in SV, everyone has grown up( Chloe, Pete, LEX, Lana). all of them have become much more developped than CK. I just do not get it. Does he have some MENTAL PROBLEM?? I mean how difficult is it to do an easy math logic?? I think his behaviors are those of some SPOILLED KID who has guilt issues, blames everyone, acts as if he is above the rest, and forgets that he has a BRAIN.

Being a hero means trying your best even in the face of failure, just hoping and working hard. Why? because you never know how things may turn out. The amount onf blunders this CK has made, his inability to make good judgment calls, to grow, has really shocked many.

EVEN Bizzaro was WAY BETTER than CK(no wonder lana slept with him). I mean actually Bizzaro was acting more humans then CK!!

ANyway....blablablab..show sucks.. LEX is a joke. great acting by Lionel!!

AMazing acting by Lionnel!

[Yasise]

In this episode we got to see that Clark, as old as he is and as experienced as he has become since the beginning, still needs to grow into his destiny. We can't have him ready to fly already, than have Season 8. Season 8 is when he should take flight. In the series he has never really been pushed this far, by any villain. So when Kara tells Clark, he needs to fly, he brushes it off, because he is still scared of what may happen if he let's his complete Kryptonian self emerge(up until now, his Kal-El persona is a bit of a villain). Lana being lobotomized and Kara disappearing is a great way to start his final journey to finally becoming Superman(without the outfit). Up until now, Clark has always had someone to pick up the hard slack, in one way or another, now with Kara gone(and his only flying partner)he needs to step up.

I agree.

[Theshadow129x]

How is Clark's not wanting to "kill one person for the sake of many" un-Superman-like? Superman only killed once to save billions of people, & after that he could never do it again for any reason. It totally fits with Superman's character that Clark didn't want to kill his former best friend!

I dont think its less superman like to get rid of Brainiac. The one on the show is nothing more than a computer that has no regard for life, it just has a specific programming and nows it needs to accomplish a goal.

This thread is starting to get very heated at the moment and its starting to be against the superman fans vs the smallville fans.

My problem with the show isnt that he should be more like superman...im asking for himt o be a man! period! He lacks all the things that makes a man what he is. He doesn't act like an adult at all. I mean he shrinks away from responsibility to a huge degree and continues to do so. He can make a difference but he doesnt and i guess i can see why he doesnt want to meddle in others affairs, fine whatever. But when you are told to fix something thats the result of youtr bad decisions but dont decide to fix the problem until you know your whole world is going to end if you dont do it then thats not being responsible. thats how Clark Kent act. He isn't active in anything until he feels as though his sky is falling even though stuff is his fault. he makes poor decisions all the time and they happen to be the same kinds of bad decisions he's made before. imo, you cant say what he does is superman like because he doesnt even act like a man or an adult. Everyone else tries to grow into the person they are supposed to be but clark stays immature and insecure about who and what he is. I dont like the fact that everyone tells him "its your destiny to be a hero" because it should be a choice for him to be that hero not because everyone is telling him what to do because he's being pushed. However, i see that they have to push him at this point because they screwed up on him so bad that all they can do is force him into his fathers will.

[Yasise]

..................
This thread is starting to get very heated at the moment and its starting to be against the superman fans vs the smallville fans...................

Wow, superman fans vs the smallville fans - seems a little schizophrenic to me. How can someone, who's a Smallville fan be against Superman???

IMO, it's more like the superman fans are vs Smallville and they might have reasonable points to feel so.

I understand all of your thoughts, Theshadow129, and I agree partially. But I don't want to write down again, what I've posted before in this thread, only so much, that I think, some posters (and I don't mean you with that, Theshadow129) expect too much of the Smallville Clark.
He isn't supposed to be superman yet, he's supposed to make mistakes and learn from them. I agree with you, that he should use his brain more sometimes, that he should more be man already if not superman, but well, how are the writers supposed to drag this story on for another season?
I think it would also be boring to watch a perfect Clark every week, IMHO.

[Hopefulsuicide]

I'm not saying I want a perfect Clark Kent, even Superman isn't perfect. However, he strives to be, and it's not because he was a failure as a teenager, and had a horrible life, rife with tragedy. Smallville has changed the motivations, and actions of the man who is supposed to be Superman, but tried to say at the same time, they didn't change a thing.

you bring up a very good point, and im trying to figure out if it was avoidable to change his motivations like that... i'm not sure... trying to find 7 seasons of plot has led to Clark going through so much

superman's backstory as i knew it, bearing in mind this is probably a mix of Lois and Clark, the movies and some comics:

-he was found by the Kents as a baby. they had not been able to conceive and saw it as a miracle that they did not question. later they told him how they had found him and that he was a gift.

-he grew up in Smallville, was a little bullied at high school because he shyed away from sports and things, but always had his eye on Lana Lang who was dating a member of the football team. in Lois and Clark he did play football eventually, though it's not clear when.

-there is a sort of split after education between those who say he found the crystal, made the FOS and then spent years studying the human race and learning about Krypton, and those who say he then spent years travelling the world learning about the human race and writing for various newspapers. i personally prefer the latter because i don't think you can truly learn about humans from a recording in the FOS. besides, it just makes Superman seem so cold to me.

thing is, the Smallville writers have stuck to this pretty damn well. season one is almost exactly the way it should be. but as the seasons go in it starts to stray a bit, until we are at a place that is unrecognisable

i've never seen an incarnation where Jor-el is a tyrant to Clark and burns into his chest, and sends him to metropolis where he can steal for a living and be genuinely nasty. i've never seen one where the FOS is made and Clark only goes there when he has to because he hates Jor-el. i've never seen an incarnation where it seems like every single other person in smallville has dissapeared. i mean do we see any scenes in Smallville other than at the barn or in the mansion anymore? i've never seen one where Martha leaves the farm! or where Lana moves in a turns kind of evil, i've never seen one where Clark literally refuses to learn to fly for absolutely no good reason, or where he acts like he has less intellegence and bravery than me. i've never seen an incarnation where other heroes show up and lecture him about not trying to be a hero...

some of these things i could handle as natural changes in a show that has to entertain. maybe i could handle it all if it felt like it were pulling back from that and putting itself back on the right course. but it doesn't feel like that. because of his motivations being wrong.

he might go to the FOS at the end of this year, but it will be because he 'learnt his lesson about not listening to his father'... thats BS if you ask me. he might start wearing glasses because someone like Chloe suggests it, he might start working as a journalist because everybody else is doing it and Perry White can get him a job so it's easy. he might decide he needs a disguise because he keeps having to save the day and it's getting risky, he might start liking Lois now that Lana is out of the picture (which is a travesty... Lana should pale in Clark's eyes next to Lois).

i'm not gonna judge too much because maybe they will pull it off. but if they don't then i guess we were all right.

[dunkman]

Yeah, I agree that there have been a lot of annoying things throughout this show. Lana being possessed by a witch was pretty dumb, & I lost some respect for Clark in "Mortal" & several episodes following - I'll let you figure out why... They did a great job integrating the Justice League characters in, though! I love the hidden things that you can only catch if you do some research (Did you know that Andrea Rojas, who was the "Angel of Vengeance" on Smallville, was actually a DC Comics character who was called "Acrata"? Stuff like that is cool!) I actually really like the way the relationships between the characters develop on this show.
I've always found it a little interesting that no one seems to mind Lana being a brunette when she was always a redhead... I think it's cool that they made Pete an African-American, & Sam Jones III pulled it off well!

I've kind of digressed to talk about what I like & don't like about the show, but we were talking about whether Smallville's Clark is enough like Superman. IMO, they're going to pull it off!

[Yasise]

..................................
................. i've never seen one where Clark literally refuses to learn to fly for absolutely no good reason,...................

Dear Becky :), can you please explain something to me?

Clark couldn't "learn" x-ray vision, heat vision, superspeed or superhearing. These abilities "came" to him all by themselves, when the time came or his body was ready or whatever. He only had to learn afterwards, how to control or focus them.

Why do you like so many other posters expect him to "learn" flying???

Sorry if I'm repeating myself again, but sometimes they give as hints in Smallville and even let the actors speak it out loud, like Margot Kidder / Bridget Crosby said to Martha in the barn in "Crusade", after Martha told her that Clark flew away:

"He has completely embraced his kryptonian destiny."

Yes, because as Kal-El he is 100% kryptonian and completely convinced of fulfilling his destiny - but not so Clark. And obviously this flying ability comes with a price and not by itself, as Mrs Crosby told us.

So, please, tell me if I'm wrong, I'm always willing to accept logical explanations, is this an explanation of when Clark will be able to fly, or not???

IMHO, it is and because of that, I don't understand, why so many people, like you, keep accusing Clark for not "wanting" to fly.

I believe this is not a matter of Clark wanting to fly or not but only of his free choice and will to accept his destiny. And as soon as he embraces it, he will be able to fly.

That's it, IMHO, and I doubt, that I'm going to write about this "flying" topic ever again :)

[Dor el]

Poor Clark. Let the sinless cast the first stone. Given the changes in Clark's upbringing, the drastically different relationship he had with Jorel, the creation of meteor freak city, the paranoia in which Jonathan and Martha immersed him, the abuse his friends endured just because they were his loyal friends, and the all consuming desire to be human, it is no wonder Clark is different than the Clark we know as Superman. I am told that there are other tales of Clark's years aged 15 to 25. I am not familiar with these. But when we consider the events of SV Clarks 15 to 25 year period, we must take into account how this Clark has endured trouble like no one can imagine, pain, suffering, death, guilt, rocky romance, sex, etc. This Clark grew up under very different circumstances. Not that Martha and Jonathan provided a horrible home life; they didn't. But they did instill real fear in him. Not fear due to physical concerns, but fear on the emotional level. Fear affects you and often not in a good way. I continue to believe that this set of parents helped to make Clark who he is today. He must get past that to get to where he needs to be. Morals? Yep Clark's got those aplenty (Except I did NOT like that he did not save himself for his true love.). Clark has to get past some of the emotional handcuffs that his upbringing, traumatic events, and horrific love life have bound him with. Hypocrit? Or Troubled? I refuse to call Clark a hypocrit. It's just not supermanfanly of me.

[Zod in my pocket]

Dear Becky :), can you please explain something to me?

Clark couldn't "learn" x-ray vision, heat vision, superspeed or superhearing. These abilities "came" to him all by themselves, when the time came or his body was ready or whatever. He only had to learn afterwards, how to control or focus them.

Why do you like so many other posters expect him to "learn" flying???

Sorry if I'm repeating myself again, but sometimes they give as hints in Smallville and even let the actors speak it out loud, like Margot Kidder / Bridget Crosby said to Martha in the barn in "Crusade", after Martha told her that Clark flew away:

"He has completely embraced his kryptonian destiny."

Yes, because as Kal-El he is 100% kryptonian and completely convinced of fulfilling his destiny - but not so Clark. And obviously this flying ability comes with a price and not by itself, as Mrs Crosby told us.

So, please, tell me if I'm wrong, I'm always willing to accept logical explanations, is this an explanation of when Clark will be able to fly, or not???

IMHO, it is and because of that, I don't understand, why so many people, like you, keep accusing Clark for not "wanting" to fly.

I believe this is not a matter of Clark wanting to fly or not but only of his free choice and will to accept his destiny. And as soon as he embraces it, he will be able to fly.

That's it, IMHO, and I doubt, that I'm going to write about this "flying" topic ever again :)
so far when he discovered his other abilities, they came to him as a reflex action, not like he was physically incapable of doing them, so they're not beyond a measure of control, as Kal-El proved. He's always had the ability to defy gravity, and he's learned through practice (remember the scene from Heat with Jonathan) and experience to manipulate his other abilities in any way he needs to so why do you think that does not apply to flight?

[Yasise]

so far when he discovered his other abilities, they came to him as a reflex action, not like he was physically incapable of doing them, so they're not beyond a measure of control, as Kal-El proved. He's always had the ability to defy gravity, and he's learned through practice (remember the scene from Heat with Jonathan) and experience to manipulate his other abilities in any way he needs to so why do you think that does not apply to flight?

Because he can only train an ability he has, but he still hasn't the ability to fly, as he said himself in "Veritas".
Of course his body is capable to fly, as he did fly as Kal-El and he knows that, too. But he is not Kal-El now, he is Clark.
That's kind of the same as the difference between consciousness and subconsciousness, I guess.
He knows, that the ability to fly is somewhere in his subconsciousness and that his body is able to fly, but as long as he ignores his kryptonian destiny and doesn't accept it consciously, it will remain in his subconsciousness.
The act of accepting is the key to the door in his mind or subconsciousness to the ability of flying.

Wow, I hope, I was able to explain it good enough??? Of course this is IMHO, but as I said above, Mrs. Crosby told us the same, so it's not like I'm inventing weird theories.

----- Added 2 Minutes later -----


Poor Clark. Let the sinless cast the first stone. Given the changes in Clark's upbringing, the drastically different relationship he had with Jorel, the creation of meteor freak city, the paranoia in which Jonathan and Martha immersed him, the abuse his friends endured just because they were his loyal friends, and the all consuming desire to be human, it is no wonder Clark is different than the Clark we know as Superman. I am told that there are other tales of Clark's years aged 15 to 25. I am not familiar with these. But when we consider the events of SV Clarks 15 to 25 year period, we must take into account how this Clark has endured trouble like no one can imagine, pain, suffering, death, guilt, rocky romance, sex, etc. This Clark grew up under very different circumstances. Not that Martha and Jonathan provided a horrible home life; they didn't. But they did instill real fear in him. Not fear due to physical concerns, but fear on the emotional level. Fear affects you and often not in a good way. I continue to believe that this set of parents helped to make Clark who he is today. He must get past that to get to where he needs to be. Morals? Yep Clark's got those aplenty (Except I did NOT like that he did not save himself for his true love.). Clark has to get past some of the emotional handcuffs that his upbringing, traumatic events, and horrific love life have bound him with. Hypocrit? Or Troubled? I refuse to call Clark a hypocrit. It's just not supermanfanly of me.

wow, explained well, as always, Dor-El :) and I agree.

[All about Clark]

Yasise and Dorel, very nice posts. I agree that Clark will fly as soon as he accepts his Kryptonian destiny, that because he can't accept it yet, he's willed himself not to fly. That's why it made more sense for him not to try, because in trying he would have succeeded IMO. It's basically a refusal at this point.

And I agree Dorel that Clark has been pretty traumatized and has fears to get past. That he is troubled, not a hypocrit, and just maybe that is why he is accepting of Lana because she too is a troubled character and two troubled characters will lean toward each other.

The only other thing about Clark is that this destiny of his weighs too heavy for him. And it appears that TPTB want to force Clark to act (due to Lana's condition), where this weight is not as prominate.

[Dor el]

^^ You"re right about Lana being a troubled individual. They certainly do have that in common.

[TheANIMAL (marcus)]

Clark nearly has all of the physical attributes that will make him Superman, believe it or not his specific emotional matureness towards relationships is unimportant as Superman. All he needs is a general attitude change towards his role in society and how he thinks his life is going to play out, which whilst a big deal for him is something that doesn't have to be dragged out.

Hell, he could have an epiphany in one moment and become ten times more heroic from that moment on and i dont think it would be unrealistic.

[Zod in my pocket]

Damn this concept of his kryptonian "destiny" to hell! it's unnecessarily obtuse & infuriating beyond all else. I just don't think think this one ability should be so much more difficult than the others to understand and master it's stupid.

Clark is seriously damaged goods; yes I agree he's unconsciously willing himself not to fly, but, but his flight shouldn't have to be locked into accepting someone else's plan set for him before he was born it should be about overcoming his own personal fears, no more!

Just My Opinion

[Hopefulsuicide]

Damn this concept of his kryptonian "destiny" to hell! it's unnecessarily obtuse & infuriating beyond all else. I just don't think think this one ability should be so much more difficult than the others to understand and master it's stupid.

Clark is seriously damaged goods; yes I agree he's unconsciously willing himself not to fly, but, but his flight shouldn't have to be locked into accepting someone else's plan set for him before he was born it should be about overcoming his own personal fears, no more!

Just My Opinion

totally and completely what i was thinking while reading what Yasise said

we know Clark can fly. he was floating above his bed in the pilot. he was dream flying in rosetta, he flew as Kal

every single other ability shows itself in uncontrolled bursts like his dream flying, and then he learns how to control it. but it was ignored because they didnt want him to be able to fly yet. fair enough. but at this point in the show it's getting ridiculous

and what destiny has Kara embraced in order to be able to fly?

and when exactly is the moment Clark has embraced his destiny? when he surrenders completely to jor-el's will? what exactly is that defining moment?

it's just ridiculous. flying isn't some kind of magical reward for being a good little kryptonian, it's something that comes on naturally, and it already has come on naturally, he is just refusing to learn how to use it

kara thinks he can do it, he just doesnt want to

this destiny stuff is ridiculous... i mean i believe in fate, but all the people who talk about destiny are the ones trying to control him, make him do what they want him to do

i think it'd be better if he decided to fly on the day he told them all to go to hell

[Zod in my pocket]

totally and completely what i was thinking while reading what Yasise said

we know Clark can fly. he was floating above his bed in the pilot. he was dream flying in rosetta, he flew as Kal

every single other ability shows itself in uncontrolled bursts like his dream flying, and then he learns how to control it. but it was ignored because they didnt want him to be able to fly yet. fair enough. but at this point in the show it's getting ridiculous

and what destiny has Kara embraced in order to be able to fly?

and when exactly is the moment Clark has embraced his destiny? when he surrenders completely to jor-el's will? what exactly is that defining moment?

it's just ridiculous. flying isn't some kind of magical reward for being a good little kryptonian, it's something that comes on naturally, and it already has come on naturally, he is just refusing to learn how to use it

kara thinks he can do it, he just doesnt want to

this destiny stuff is ridiculous... i mean i believe in fate, but all the people who talk about destiny are the ones trying to control him, make him do what they want him to do

i think it'd be better if he decided to fly on the day he told them all to go to hell
It's funny you should say that, cause that brings up something that never made sense to me.

We know in the movies Jor-El's plan was for him to become a superhero all along. From that perspective Kal's "destiny" made sense. Can anyone out there say they get that same vibe from this Jor-El now? I doubt one of you can.
Ever since they introduced Jor-El I have never believed it to be possible that he would approve of Clark wasting his skills on just humans in some gaudy looking primitive costume; the only way Clark could do that would be if he told Jor-El to F off once again.

I see only these options that make any sense
1: We find the AI Jor-El really isn't representative the true Jor-El. Rather he's the Eradicator program, or it's been horribly corrupted
2: The pull one of the worst lightbulb moments in the show's history and let his training end with him becoming superman and Jor-El being ok with it regardless of it being completely nonsensical

[All about Clark]

Kara has always accepted her kryptonian nature. Clark has not. Clark only uses his abilities when he needs them and I suspect he will finally fly when he needs that too. But I think Clark knows that the flying is the ultimate act of committing to his kryptonian self which he has not done yet. I'm hoping the need to stop Braniac outweighs his need to refuse his kryptonian self. Which to me is what this is really about. And we have seen progression with his taking on Bizarro. But he didn't need to fly to take on Bizarro and he just might to deal with Braniac.

It almost seems like Clark needs to get pissed with Braniac in order to fly after him.

----- Added 8 Minutes later -----



1: We find the AI Jor-El really isn't representative the true Jor-El. Rather he's the Eradicator program, or it's been horribly corrupted

I really think that Jor-el AI is just that. He is not necessarily the actions the original Jor-el would make. He's just acting on one purpose, one mission. And there obviously plenty of things that interfere with that mission that Clark can't accept.

I really feel that Clark is and will be coming around to understand the AI and working with it.

[Zod in my pocket]

Kara has always accepted her kryptonian nature. Clark has not. Clark only uses his abilities when he needs them and I suspect he will finally fly when he needs that too. But I think Clark knows that the flying is the ultimate act of committing to his kryptonian self which he has not done yet. I'm hoping the need to stop Braniac outweighs his need to refuse his kryptonian self. Which to me is what this is really about. And we have seen progression with his taking on Bizarro. But he didn't need to fly to take on Bizarro and he just might to deal with Braniac.

It almost seems like Clark needs to get pissed with Braniac in order to fly after him.
yes she knows Kryptonian culture better than Clark, but what "destiny" did Kara accept that enabled her to fly? The whole destiny line is sounding more like bull everyday.

If that's all it took for Clark to fly was to get pissed, then Lex should've tried harder, "knocking up" Lana and stealing her from him wasn't bad enough.

[Yasise]

totally and completely what i was thinking while reading what Yasise said

we know Clark can fly. he was floating above his bed in the pilot. he was dream flying in rosetta, he flew as Kal

every single other ability shows itself in uncontrolled bursts like his dream flying, and then he learns how to control it. but it was ignored because they didnt want him to be able to fly yet. fair enough. but at this point in the show it's getting ridiculous

and what destiny has Kara embraced in order to be able to fly?

and when exactly is the moment Clark has embraced his destiny? when he surrenders completely to jor-el's will? what exactly is that defining moment?

it's just ridiculous. flying isn't some kind of magical reward for being a good little kryptonian, it's something that comes on naturally, and it already has come on naturally, he is just refusing to learn how to use it

kara thinks he can do it, he just doesnt want to

this destiny stuff is ridiculous... i mean i believe in fate, but all the people who talk about destiny are the ones trying to control him, make him do what they want him to do

i think it'd be better if he decided to fly on the day he told them all to go to hell

I never said, that I approve that "destiny" thing, actually I can understand why you're so frustrated. I only tried to explain the reason for Smallville Clark not wanting or being able to fly yet. That doesn't mean, I like this idea of the writers.

Kara was born and raised in Krypton, so she never had any reason to not want to be what she was. She automatically accepted it, because she never knew anything else till the day she came to earth.
But Clark isn't Kara, he had a totally different life than her as we all know :)

[All about Clark]

yes she knows Kryptonian culture better than Clark, but what "destiny" did Kara accept that enabled her to fly? The whole destiny line is sounding more like bull everyday.

If that's all it took for Clark to fly was to get pissed, then Lex should've tried harder, "knocking up" Lana and stealing her from him wasn't bad enough.

See, that's just it, Kara has never had a destiny to worry about. Clark is expected to be a savior and Kara is not. She has no expectations placed on her that we know about. It is much easier for her to accept who she is when it doesn't come with a price. Clark accepting who he is comes with a price and an expectation from Jor-el. And Kara was told by Zor-el that she would have powers, so she accepted that immediately.

Clark has never needed to fly from any character. However, if Braniac taunts Clark and flys off, maybe getting pissed and needing to fly is what Clark needs, here's to hoping it's true.

[Theshadow129x]

I never said, that I approve that "destiny" thing, actually I can understand why you're so frustrated. I only tried to explain the reason for Smallville Clark not wanting or being able to fly yet. That doesn't mean, I like this idea of the writers.

Kara was born and raised in Krypton, so she never had any reason to not want to be what she was. She automatically accepted it, because she never knew anything else till the day she came to earth.
But Clark isn't Kara, he had a totally different life than her as we all know :)

This is true. i never for one moment thought that Clark's kryptonian heritage prevented him from flying. The show makes it seem as though thats what keeps him from doing it but theres something inside him that just makes him not want to fly so its more of an internal conflict than anything.

I think when it comes to Clark, i do tend to think about how i think he should be because of how I am at my age and how superman was also developed back in the earlier days but everyone has a different interpretations of the character and different mindsets as individuals. I know alot of people get mad that Clark is still on the farm As I think about it more though, I realize that he stays on the farm to hold on to what is left of his human family. Martha is gone but before she left Clark had her for her sage advice, however before she left too he worked the farm because to keep it going was his fathers dream and the farm is one of the last things that has a tie to the kent name and his father for him. He hasn't yet come into terms with the fact that he still thinks his father passed because of him (which i still think is his fault had he returned to the fortress like jor-el said after getting rid of the Zod disciples). There are a lot of things that holds Clark back from his true potential and all those road blocks are caused internally by him. He has yet to come into terms with his decisions and when it comes to taking on the burden of not having an ordinary life, he caves in a goes back to the life that he has ever known, the one where his parents sheltered him from his secret and the world.

I do have to say that after understanding these things about him, I still am disappointed in the person thats on the screen. He still lets other people do the dirty work for him and he doesn't get active in anything unless it begins to effect him directly. He doesn't try to think for himself and then he makes the same rash decisions over and over again.

[HalJordan4184]

I feel the need to point something else out again. If you change the beginning, the characterization, and then outcome of events, how do you get the same ending?

This is what doesn't work with Smallville. I could take it if it was a dedicated elseworlds. I'd still think it was horribly done, but it would be a "less bitter pill to swallow".

However, that isn't what this is. The producers of this show, have been adament since day one, that they haven't changed a thing, and this is leading to the Superman of all other incarnations.

Except it can't, and we've ALL pretty much agreed on that. This Clark isn't like any other Superman, but somehow, tptb, are trying to say he's EXACTLY like all other versions of Superman, and he could easily be tranplanted into any other Superman incarnation, and blend in flawlessly.

[Dor el]

Yasise, good posts. I completely understand what you're saying. Strangely, I even understand HALJORDAN. I understand the mass confusion and even the disappointment that some of us have. Yet, we still watch. We still discuss. We still anxiously await the next episode. I still hope TPTB can figure this all out. I truly do love the character and want his character to deliver. I believe he will. The writers could very well become highly creative and blow us all away with the explanation of how Clark got from point A to point B. Let's not give up on Clark and his buddies just yet.

[Yasise]

Yasise, good posts. I completely understand what you're saying. Strangely, I even understand HALJORDAN. I understand the mass confusion and even the disappointment that some of us have. Yet, we still watch. We still discuss. We still anxiously await the next episode. I still hope TPTB can figure this all out. I truly do love the character and want his character to deliver. I believe he will. The writers could very well become highly creative and blow us all away with the explanation of how Clark got from point A to point B. Let's not give up on Clark and his buddies just yet.

Thanks Dor-El! I know exactly how you and the other posters feel - IT IS really a MESS!

Someone in Smallville said once "You can have all the good intentions and still you end up doing all the wrong things." I don't recall who said it, but I was impressed by that, because it's soo true.

I guess, Al/Miles and all the other TPTB's surely had all the good intentions in the beginning of Smallville, but, well... I think everyone will agree with me, they sort of messed it up.

That's showing e.g. in the not so logical lack of progress for Clark and the lack of enthusiasm of the actors, which is really obvious in season 7.
Like us, I'm afraid, the actors, too, don't like the way Smallville goes, and we all can only hope, that at least the (hopefully) last season, season 8, will prove us, why we fell in love with this show and why we still care so much :).

[Dor el]

After having read Triplet's review of Veritas, a thought came to mind. She mentioned that Clark is a broken man. A rather profound way to describe an invulnerable creature. I know, she was talking about his will, his heart, or his spirit. Growing up on a farm gives a person many opportunities to see life unfold in various and sometimes unexpected ways. When a foal is born, at first it is wobbly. Then it grows stronger, though still dependent on others. At some point is grows into adulthood. It is full of spirit, full of energy, and full of defiance. Then, the horse is broken. Often a long and difficult process. Sometimes people get hurt during this training period. After he is broken, the horse is able to perform in the way it was destined to do. The horse is "better" for the learning process. Now. that Clark is "broken", maybe he is ready to learn to be what he was meant to be. When you're as low as Clark is at the moment, you have no place to go but up. Up, up, and away. Clark's spirit is broken. Maybe, he is ready to assume the mantle of his future self. I don't think Clark is unsupermanly. He has been dragged through the fires of life and he is tired, he is uncertain, he is alone (even Chloe can't fix this kind of loneliness), and he is in a bitter struggle. He is in the middle of a fierce struggle between his humanity, which he values, and his Kryptonianism, which he fears. His body is nearly invincible, but his heart is fragile. I expect to see him step up.

Like Yasise said, if appears that the actors are frustrated with SV, this changing of the guard is a good opportunity to upright the cart.

[Yasise]

After having read Triplet's review of Veritas, a thought came to mind. She mentioned that Clark is a broken man. A rather profound way to describe an invulnerable creature. I know, she was talking about his will, his heart, or his spirit. Growing up on a farm gives a person many opportunities to see life unfold in various and sometimes unexpected ways. When a foal is born, at first it is wobbly. Then it grows stronger, though still dependent on others. At some point is grows into adulthood. It is full of spirit, full of energy, and full of defiance. Then, the horse is broken. Often a long and difficult process. Sometimes people get hurt during this training period. After he is broken, the horse is able to perform in the way it was destined to do. The horse is "better" for the learning process. Now. that Clark is "broken", maybe he is ready to learn to be what he was meant to be. When you're as low as Clark is at the moment, you have no place to go but up. Up, up, and away. Clark's spirit is broken. Maybe, he is ready to assume the mantle of his future self. I don't think Clark is unsupermanly. He has been dragged through the fires of life and he is tired, he is uncertain, he is alone (even Chloe can't fix this kind of loneliness), and he is in a bitter struggle. He is in the middle of a fierce struggle between his humanity, which he values, and his Kryptonianism, which he fears. His body is nearly invincible, but his heart is fragile. I expect to see him step up..

Yes, maybe you're right. Everything bad that happens makes us stronger - that's unfortunately the truth.


Like Yasise said, if appears that the actors are frustrated with SV, this changing of the guard is a good opportunity to upright the cart.

yeah, if that was the only reason for their frustration, then everything must be better in season 8, at least I hope so.

[triplet]

After having read Triplet's review of Veritas, a thought came to mind. She mentioned that Clark is a broken man. A rather profound way to describe an invulnerable creature. I know, she was talking about his will, his heart, or his spirit. Growing up on a farm gives a person many opportunities to see life unfold in various and sometimes unexpected ways. When a foal is born, at first it is wobbly. Then it grows stronger, though still dependent on others. At some point is grows into adulthood. It is full of spirit, full of energy, and full of defiance. Then, the horse is broken. Often a long and difficult process. Sometimes people get hurt during this training period. After he is broken, the horse is able to perform in the way it was destined to do. The horse is "better" for the learning process. Now. that Clark is "broken", maybe he is ready to learn to be what he was meant to be. When you're as low as Clark is at the moment, you have no place to go but up. Up, up, and away. Clark's spirit is broken. Maybe, he is ready to assume the mantle of his future self. I don't think Clark is unsupermanly. He has been dragged through the fires of life and he is tired, he is uncertain, he is alone (even Chloe can't fix this kind of loneliness), and he is in a bitter struggle. He is in the middle of a fierce struggle between his humanity, which he values, and his Kryptonianism, which he fears. His body is nearly invincible, but his heart is fragile. I expect to see him step up.

Like Yasise said, if appears that the actors are frustrated with SV, this changing of the guard is a good opportunity to upright the cart.

You know, even though I didn't mention it really, I think "breaking" Clark is the reason they're (you know, the writers) are putting him through this. Traveler and then this... he's had a lot to deal with, he's isolated and is going to have to deal with a lot by himself with no help from Chloe, Lana, Kara or Lionel... None of them can help him with Brainiac. Lana's in a coma, Kara's gone, Chloe is just human and Lionel is now an enemy...

They said nothing will be the same after Veritas, maybe it's Clark that will be different... The changes that have happened are going to change him, maybe change his outlook on life, his views on his heritage, etc.

Maybe he'll finall accept his "destiny"... That will certainly be different.

I'm all for that.

It's like that saying, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Clark isn't going to die, but he will be made stronger by the trials he's going through, and will go through, until the end of the series.

[TOMophilus]

Using physical and mental pain and torture to turn Clark into Superman is sick and disgusting. Clark should become Superman because he realizes that this is the right thing to do, not because mental traumas push him towards his alleged "destiny". The glorification of violence has always bothered me in triplet´s reviews... :(

[Dor el]

My goodness, how often has Superman been forced to do violence to conquer evil villains? Every time Clark shoves or knocks someone around, violence occurs. To separate Superman/Clark from violence is impossible. I think, too, that "breaking" Clark is a very sad thing for Clark. So far, he has been immune to attempts at getting him to be who he is. This may be fate's opportunity of last resort. Like the foal example above, just maybe Clark will be a stronger more capable hero because of the trials he has endured. I agree completely with Triplet's assessment that during that final scene in Veritas, Clark was truly a broken man more alone than he has ever been.

[Girlpower888]

I voted that Clark is less Supermanly than ever. It wasn't at all about him not flying.

I just don't see any of the honor, power or integrity in Clark right now that Jonathon and Martha were bestowing in him the first few seasons. Back then Clark was angsty, but always strong and trying to do the right thing. When he failed to, his parents made him face up to it.

Clark is now acting like a son Jonathon Kent would be disappointed in. He's not a bad person. He's just dismal, self-centered and uninteresting to watch. I used to adore watching Clark. Now he just seems like he's walking through every scene.

I hope the person is right who said maybe the writers are taking him down to his lowest point, so he can rise up as Superman next year. But I'm not counting on it. The TPTB seem to want to keep the show angsty and frustrating. Maybe they think that makes it dark and edgy. But after all these years, Clark just seems like a shadow of his former self.

I know it's not Tom Welling's acting that is the problem, because he really hit the mark as a fun, interesting Clark when he did his Bizarro scenes with Lana. And his evil Bizarro scenes were awesome, too.

[dru-zod2501]

After having read Triplet's review of Veritas, a thought came to mind. She mentioned that Clark is a broken man. A rather profound way to describe an invulnerable creature. I know, she was talking about his will, his heart, or his spirit. Growing up on a farm gives a person many opportunities to see life unfold in various and sometimes unexpected ways. When a foal is born, at first it is wobbly. Then it grows stronger, though still dependent on others. At some point is grows into adulthood. It is full of spirit, full of energy, and full of defiance. Then, the horse is broken. Often a long and difficult process. Sometimes people get hurt during this training period. After he is broken, the horse is able to perform in the way it was destined to do. The horse is "better" for the learning process. Now. that Clark is "broken", maybe he is ready to learn to be what he was meant to be. When you're as low as Clark is at the moment, you have no place to go but up. Up, up, and away. Clark's spirit is broken. Maybe, he is ready to assume the mantle of his future self. I don't think Clark is unsupermanly. He has been dragged through the fires of life and he is tired, he is uncertain, he is alone (even Chloe can't fix this kind of loneliness), and he is in a bitter struggle. He is in the middle of a fierce struggle between his humanity, which he values, and his Kryptonianism, which he fears. His body is nearly invincible, but his heart is fragile. I expect to see him step up.

Like Yasise said, if appears that the actors are frustrated with SV, this changing of the guard is a good opportunity to upright the cart.
I wish I could share your optimism:\, but now I can only take this one episode at a time


Using physical and mental pain and torture to turn Clark into Superman is sick and disgusting. Clark should become Superman because he realizes that this is the right thing to do, not because mental traumas push him towards his alleged "destiny". The glorification of violence has always bothered me in triplet´s reviews... :(
but they've been doing this all along in one form or another, though not as striking as its been as of late. The quote that's been whispered sometimes over the years, "Smallville is a tragedy" comes to mind. Certainly not how I want my Superman to come about, but for this guy I will only call "Clarkman" whatever endgame they have planned for him let it be, I don't care anymore

[Dor el]

I believe you're right. I thought that Al/Miles gave that description.

[triplet]

Using physical and mental pain and torture to turn Clark into Superman is sick and disgusting. Clark should become Superman because he realizes that this is the right thing to do, not because mental traumas push him towards his alleged "destiny". The glorification of violence has always bothered me in triplet´s reviews... :(


There's "glorification of violence" in my reviews? News to me.

Personally, I'm a pacifist. hate guns, never hit my kids... Wish the hell Bush had thought of something better to do with Trillions than invade Iraq...

That's in real life, however when it comes to drama (and Smallville is that) I'm all for some good violence.

If I'm such a pacifist, as I'm professing, how on earth could that be?

Well, for one: it's not real. If what happens to Clark on a weekly basis happened to a real life Superman I'd be pissed. How dare they hurt him?

But this isn't real and neither is Superman.

What is important is telling a story worth telling in such a way that it keeps up your interest.

Traveler was hard to watch, especially the first few minutes of the tease, but man... did it ever have my interest and it was important too... I'm still not sure why Lionel did what he did to Clark, I hope he explains himself better this week about that, but it was largely a means to an end.

They needed to have Clark to learn finally that Lionel is not to be trusted. So, it was probably contrived because it did exactly that and pretty well.

Another thing about it was that I think Clark needed to face his greatest fear. Being captured and held is something he'd always been afraid of from the very beginning of the show. I felt that he needed to face that fear and put it past him.

We've yet to see him do that yet, but maybe that's coming. It's another step on his journey.

As for being "sick and disgusting" I don't think it's that at all. It's conflict, and very dramatic conflict. The comics are filled with this type of conflict. Clark is very nearly indestructable, yet almost every issue he gets injured.

Why is that? Is it a comic version of torture porn? Are all comic book fans sadists?

No, I don't think so.

I think it's because a journey worth traveling (when you're talking about in terms of telling a story) shouldn't ever an easy one.

Life has been especially hard on Clark throughout the series, both physically and emotionally, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

Better that than have him happily accept what his future holds for him... Think about it: if that had happend, if he had accepted so easily what he is meant to be, then the show would have been over years ago. There would be no place else to go...

He has to fight the inevitable.

Again, look at it from Clark's viewpoint: He doesn't know the ending like we do. He doesn't know the world will accept him, even as alien as he is.

That's the irony of the series. We know the ending, none of the characters do.

I love that about Smallville. We know where they're going, even if the route the writers and producers have mapped out for them isn't what we ideally would have wanted.

I don't take joy in violence, but I do like an exciting story and it's been plenty exciting in Smallville lately. There's been some weirdness here and there, but for the most part I'm stll enjoying the ride too much to want to get off too soon.

And once he accepts his alien-ness, the show is over because he will start to openly use his powers and start wearing a lot of blue and red spandex.



My goodness, how often has Superman been forced to do violence to conquer evil villains? Every time Clark shoves or knocks someone around, violence occurs. To separate Superman/Clark from violence is impossible.

His usual modus operandi is to break things first and ask questions later. It's a source of conflict between him and Batman in the comics at times.

Bruce is very deliberate and calculating. Clark is impulsive and doesn't always think things through before acting.

He doesn't kill but it tends to lead him to busting up property and putting people in the hospital even in the comics.



I think, too, that "breaking" Clark is a very sad thing for Clark. So far, he has been immune to attempts at getting him to be who he is. This may be fate's opportunity of last resort. Like the foal example above, just maybe Clark will be a stronger more capable hero because of the trials he has endured. I agree completely with Triplet's assessment that during that final scene in Veritas, Clark was truly a broken man more alone than he has ever been.

Yes, he was broken and it was hard to watch, but Tom played it so well there's no way I couldn't love it.

But the potential for torture porn aside, I think they're going somewhere with all this pain and tragedy. I don't know much about what's going to happen since I don't do spoilers, but it seems like they're building up to something...

I think he might even have further to fall before he can come out the other end as a stronger man, but I guess only time will tell with that.

[TOMophilus]

There's "glorification of violence" in my reviews? News to me.
Sorry, I should have said: implicit glorification.


That's in real life, however when it comes to drama (and Smallville is that) I'm all for some good violence..... But this isn't real and neither is Superman.
Regrettably, many people are unable to separate fact from fiction. And it is well known that fictional violence breeds actual violence. By approving TV violence you defy your alleged pacifist ideals in real life. May I refer you to this post (especially at the end):

http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3702566&postcount=63

I think this woman has summarized it nicely...

[triplet]

Sorry, I should have said: implicit glorification.

Regrettably, many people are unable to separate fact from fiction. And it is well known that fictional violence breeds actual violence. By approving TV violence you defy your alleged pacifist ideals in real life. May I refer you to this post (especially at the end):

http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3702566&postcount=63

I think this woman has summarized it nicely...

So what's your point? You want me to stop reviewing based on my own thoughts and feelings on an episode? You want me to start reviewing based on what's best for society?

I'm sorry, I'm not sure I can do that or even how to react to the suggestion, but I do know that at this point I don't want to do anything different.

Just because you and Rose_etta and others find some of the content of the show objectionable doesn't mean I should or would.

While I thought that what Brainiac had done disturbing, and I believe I did make that clear in my review, I still found joy in the beauty of James' performance.

But keep in mind that a large part of what I choose to review is the actor's work and I thought James Marsters had done a masterful job. I loved that Brainiac took delight in the cruelties he had done to Clark and to Lana, not because I wanted to glorify his actions, but because I enjoyed watching James do his work so well.

My reaction to the show is probably on a different level than other people's, because a lot of the joy I get out of the show comes from the execuction of it in terms of acting, directing and production design. Things other people simply don't notice, so it isn't just about the story for me.

If enjoying the actor's performance of his character doing violent acts is "glorification" of violence, then I guess I am doing just that so maybe you weren't all wrong.

I still enjoy the show quite a bit and I'm not ashamed of it and I like it enough that I will still write about it. You don't have to read my reviews if you find them so offensive to you, but I'm not going to change the way I do things because the show has crossed a line that others feel it shouldn't have crossed.

[Hopefulsuicide]

Kara has always accepted her kryptonian nature. Clark has not. Clark only uses his abilities when he needs them and I suspect he will finally fly when he needs that too. But I think Clark knows that the flying is the ultimate act of committing to his kryptonian self which he has not done yet. I'm hoping the need to stop Braniac outweighs his need to refuse his kryptonian self. Which to me is what this is really about. And we have seen progression with his taking on Bizarro. But he didn't need to fly to take on Bizarro and he just might to deal with Braniac.

It almost seems like Clark needs to get pissed with Braniac in order to fly after him.

----- Added 8 Minutes later -----



I really think that Jor-el AI is just that. He is not necessarily the actions the original Jor-el would make. He's just acting on one purpose, one mission. And there obviously plenty of things that interfere with that mission that Clark can't accept.

I really feel that Clark is and will be coming around to understand the AI and working with it.

i'm starting to find this arguement funny, and i'm not meaning to direct it solely at you so i'm sorry if it seems like i am, but seems like people are trying so hard to give Clark not flying a decent explanation (and your doing a pretty good job) but we know the truth is that TPTB don't want him to

and that's the only reason

i have gripes with it, because i think the writers are being stubborn for no reason and not giving us clear explanations for his anti-flying

i mean i can guess at these

1. he's scared of heights still
2. flying, or even thinking about flying, brings back flashbacks of being kal-el
3. he's afraid of being spotted
4. he's afraid of failing, or looking like an idiot when he tries it and getting embaressed
5. of all his powers, flying seems the most fantastical... maybe he thinks if he keeps his feet on the ground he will keep his sanity too

now all of these are plausible, but the problem is that Clark is dealing with bigger problems than we are. so he needs to step up and get over it.

even i, in the real world, have to do things i don't like doing, do things that make me uncomfortable. i don't really like important phone conversations, i get terrified about going for interveiws, i don't liking sleeping with the light off etc... but i still have to do these things sometimes. you have to face your fears head on, you have to be brave and just act confident... Superman taught me that

i wish Clark had Superman as a role model when he was growing up :rotfl:

----- Added 3 Minutes later -----


Using physical and mental pain and torture to turn Clark into Superman is sick and disgusting. Clark should become Superman because he realizes that this is the right thing to do, not because mental traumas push him towards his alleged "destiny". The glorification of violence has always bothered me in triplet´s reviews... :(

i agree that Clark should become superman because it's the right thing to do, that's definately one of the biggest problems on the show, is that they keeping finding 'reasons' for Clark to be Superman, and there doesn't need to be any outside reasons, because it's just naturally what he will want to do when he is in a big city and constantly wanting to help people, but not wanting to get caught

however, i don't think physical and mental pain on a tv show is sick... can you name 1 good drama/sci-fi show where there is none... in fact can you name any show where there is none?

life isn't kittens and rainbows, if a show is going to realistic, there needs to be up's a downs. veritas was very much a down for Clark and Lana and Lionel... hopefully we will see Clark come back up.

tbh i want to see a happy Clark... feels like we havent seen one since back in the beginning of season 5

----- Added 9 Minutes later -----


So what's your point? You want me to stop reviewing based on my own thoughts and feelings on an episode? You want me to start reviewing based on what's best for society?

I'm sorry, I'm not sure I can do that or even how to react to the suggestion, but I do know that at this point I don't want to do anything different.

Just because you and Rose_etta and others find some of the content of the show objectionable doesn't mean I should or would.

While I thought that what Brainiac had done disturbing, and I believe I did make that clear in my review, I still found joy in the beauty of James' performance.

But keep in mind that a large part of what I choose to review is the actor's work and I thought James Marsters had done a masterful job. I loved that Brainiac took delight in the cruelties he had done to Clark and to Lana, not because I wanted to glorify his actions, but because I enjoyed watching James do his work so well.

My reaction to the show is probably on a different level than other people's, because a lot of the joy I get out of the show comes from the execuction of it in terms of acting, directing and production design. Things other people simply don't notice, so it isn't just about the story for me.

If enjoying the actor's performance of his character doing violent acts is "glorification" of violence, then I guess I am doing just that so maybe you weren't all wrong.

I still enjoy the show quite a bit and I'm not ashamed of it and I like it enough that I will still write about it. You don't have to read my reviews if you find them so offensive to you, but I'm not going to change the way I do things because the show has crossed a line that others feel it shouldn't have crossed.

i read your review and i didn't find you condoning violence at all, let alone glorifying it

your reveiws tend always to be exactly what i thought, although i get a lot more worked up about the bad things and find it hard to excuse them

while Lana's condition is argueably one of the worst 'tortures' on the show, it is not the worst torture i have seen on any show, and i didn't find it inappropriate. Braniac is fast becoming people's favourite villain on the show... this is why! i don't think the focus of her condition was about Clark, i think it was about Braniac showing how rutheless and vicious he is. Clark would have been sufficiently broken if Lana where just in a coma, but Braniac is a sadistic disgusting creation.

instead of people turning their hate towards triplet or the makers, why not turn it towards braniac... everyone is so fast to defend Clark's inability to fly by stating the reasons 'he' might have, and yet when it's about what Braniac did to Lana, it's all about the writers! why is no one saying 'i absolutely despise Braniac for what he did to Lana?'

[triplet]

i'm starting to find this arguement funny, and i'm not meaning to direct it solely at you so i'm sorry if it seems like i am, but seems like people are trying so hard to give Clark not flying a decent explanation (and your doing a pretty good job) but we know the truth is that TPTB don't want him to

and that's the only reason

i have gripes with it, because i think the writers are being stubborn for no reason and not giving us clear explanations for his anti-flying

i mean i can guess at these

1. he's scared of heights still
2. flying, or even thinking about flying, brings back flashbacks of being kal-el
3. he's afraid of being spotted
4. he's afraid of failing, or looking like an idiot when he tries it and getting embaressed
5. of all his powers, flying seems the most fantastical... maybe he thinks if he keeps his feet on the ground he will keep his sanity too

now all of these are plausible, but the problem is that Clark is dealing with bigger problems than we are. so he needs to step up and get over it.

even i, in the real world, have to do things i don't like doing, do things that make me uncomfortable. i don't really like important phone conversations, i get terrified about going for interveiws, i don't liking sleeping with the light off etc... but i still have to do these things sometimes. you have to face your fears head on, you have to be brave and just act confident... Superman taught me that

i wish Clark had Superman as a role model when he was growing up :rotfl:

I just had a PM with someone about this...

His major complaint about the show was the lame flying lessons and Clark's ongoing reluctance to learn.

But I think it's a metaphor for his heritage, his alien nature. I don't think he's really afraid of heights, he is just using that as an excuse. He knows he can fly, had known since the second episode of the series, he's never been willing to accept being that different.

I think he's getting close to accepting just how different he is and he'll eventually discover that most people won't mind he's from another planet, that most people won't immediately plan to take him to a lab...

I think he's close, but I guess we'll see.



i agree that Clark should become superman because it's the right thing to do, that's definately one of the biggest problems on the show, is that they keeping finding 'reasons' for Clark to be Superman, and there doesn't need to be any outside reasons, because it's just naturally what he will want to do when he is in a big city and constantly wanting to help people, but not wanting to get caught

however, i don't think physical and mental pain on a tv show is sick... can you name 1 good drama/sci-fi show where there is none... in fact can you name any show where there is none?

life isn't kittens and rainbows, if a show is going to realistic, there needs to be up's a downs. veritas was very much a down for Clark and Lana and Lionel... hopefully we will see Clark come back up.

tbh i want to see a happy Clark... feels like we havent seen one since back in the beginning of season 5

I think there needs to be a stronger dramatic need for him to become Superman. Wanting to and even recognizing it's the right thing to do isn't enough, sorta like Kara gettnig her memories back...

She didn't get them back until the need was urgent enough, Clark learning to fly and taking more steps toward becoming Superman won't happen just because it's the right thing to do, it'll happen when it has to happen, when he needs to stretch himself to make it happen.



i read your review and i didn't find you condoning violence at all, let alone glorifying it

your reveiws tend always to be exactly what i thought, although i get a lot more worked up about the bad things and find it hard to excuse them

Thanks, I appreciate that.

But keep in mind that it isn't that I'm not seeing the bad things, it's just that don't tend to bother me as much as some...



while Lana's condition is argueably one of the worst 'tortures' on the show, it is not the worst torture i have seen on any show, and i didn't find it inappropriate. Braniac is fast becoming people's favourite villain on the show... this is why! i don't think the focus of her condition was about Clark, i think it was about Braniac showing how rutheless and vicious he is. Clark would have been sufficiently broken if Lana where just in a coma, but Braniac is a sadistic disgusting creation.

instead of people turning their hate towards triplet or the makers, why not turn it towards braniac... everyone is so fast to defend Clark's inability to fly by stating the reasons 'he' might have, and yet when it's about what Braniac did to Lana, it's all about the writers! why is no one saying 'i absolutely despise Braniac for what he did to Lana?'

Good point...

I think what Brainiac did to Lana was disgusting, but I'm sure he has a plan for why he did it.

We just don't know what that plan is yet.

[Hopefulsuicide]

I think there needs to be a stronger dramatic need for him to become Superman. Wanting to and even recognizing it's the right thing to do isn't enough, sorta like Kara gettnig her memories back...

She didn't get them back until the need was urgent enough, Clark learning to fly and taking more steps toward becoming Superman won't happen just because it's the right thing to do, it'll happen when it has to happen, when he needs to stretch himself to make it happen.




But keep in mind that it isn't that I'm not seeing the bad things, it's just that don't tend to bother me as much as some...

.

i guess it's just a matter of preference

i mean i hate those die hards who demand they are absolutely right because thats how the comics tell it... i recognise that Smallville is a different telling of the Superman story, but i just don't like this whole 'he becomes Superman because he has to' vibe that i get

Superman, the way i love him and will always remember him, did not need a big reason to become Superman. it didn't take the end of the world, it didn't take someone dying, it didnt take some kind of major epiphany or anything... it was just natural

in LnC he got to Metropolis, kept seeing people in trouble and felt he had to help them, and nearly got caught a couple of times. so he decided he needed a disguise. lucky he did, cause just as he finished trying on the finished out fit his mother made, he heard about a fault on a rocket ship trying to get to space and flew off too save Lois Lane from the bomb that she had found.

actually funny thing is, in an AU world of LnC Clark never became Superman. why? because he never stopped dating Lana because Lois had died before he ever showed up in metropolis. Lana didn't approve of him running around in tights and a cape because she wanted a normal life. when an AU Lois came along and told him what his life could be like, he eased straight into the Superman role, feeling how good it felt to be doing what he had always wanted to do.

i can see that :lol:

p.s. as to the second comment i quoted, yeah that's exactly what i meant... you were picking up on my gripes but where a lot more gentle than i tend to be :lol:

[triplet]

i guess it's just a matter of preference

i mean i hate those die hards who demand they are absolutely right because thats how the comics tell it... i recognise that Smallville is a different telling of the Superman story, but i just don't like this whole 'he becomes Superman because he has to' vibe that i get

Superman, the way i love him and will always remember him, did not need a big reason to become Superman. it didn't take the end of the world, it didn't take someone dying, it didnt take some kind of major epiphany or anything... it was just natural

in LnC he got to Metropolis, kept seeing people in trouble and felt he had to help them, and nearly got caught a couple of times. so he decided he needed a disguise. lucky he did, cause just as he finished trying on the finished out fit his mother made, he heard about a fault on a rocket ship trying to get to space and flew off too save Lois Lane from the bomb that she had found.

actually funny thing is, in an AU world of LnC Clark never became Superman. why? because he never stopped dating Lana because Lois had died before he ever showed up in metropolis. Lana didn't approve of him running around in tights and a cape because she wanted a normal life. when an AU Lois came along and told him what his life could be like, he eased straight into the Superman role, feeling how good it felt to be doing what he had always wanted to do.

i can see that :lol:

p.s. as to the second comment i quoted, yeah that's exactly what i meant... you were picking up on my gripes but where a lot more gentle than i tend to be :lol:

the thing is about him accepting his destiny and fighting it, I made the point earlier that having the journey be a hard one makes the story far more engaging.

I mean, it happens all the time in films. Comedies, dramas, musicals, and kids cartoons even... the dramatic need of the main character is never easily fulfilled. He has obstacles to overcome in order to reach his goals. If it were too easy, the story would be extremely boring.

Look at Die Hard, for example.

John McClain fights with his wife because he doesn't want to leave NYC, she stopped using her married name once she moved to LA because she's not sure she can still be with him, that's the setup for their relationship and the major romantic complication in the film: he's going to LA to try and patch things up with her.

Then he can't because terrorists take over the building. He has to save her, he has to save the lives of everyone, and defeat the bad guys because he won't be able to reconcile wth her otherwise.

It's awesome. Dramatic, exciting and John McClain goes through hell before he can tell his wife he loves her and wants to try and make it work.

If it had been easy, John McClain would have just walked off the plane and into his wife's loving arms. What if we'd gotten that version of Die Hard?

*yawn*

What a complete bore it would have been...

Look, even kid's movies have this sort of thing in them.

I mean Finding Nemo had the main character going throuh hell before he can reach his goal of telling his son that he loves him.... The guy goes on this long, torturous, danger-filled odyssesy of self-discovery before he can find his son so he can tell his kid how important he is to him.

The hero having some serious obstacles to overcome before reaching his goal is such a common story telling device that I'm not sure I can think of a single story that doesn't have it.

I think the problem for Smallville fans comes in that Clark's character arc, his journey to becoming Superman, is going to take the whole series to tell.

So people want to see that resolution, they want to see him become Superman, but they forget that once he does, the show is essentially over.

Some people are done waiting and want him to leave Smallville behind already.

Me? Not so much, I'm still enjoying it enough that I am willing to wait for Clark, but I have a feeling next year will be it so just another year and it'll be over.

[wolverine316]

I feel sorry for Tom. To have to play a character with no balls. Is it me or was Clark more Supermanly when Jonathon was still alive? He must be rolling in his grave.

[dru-zod2501]

the thing is about him accepting his destiny and fighting it, I made the point earlier that having the journey be a hard one makes the story far more engaging.

I mean, it happens all the time in films. Comedies, dramas, musicals, and kids cartoons even... the dramatic need of the main character is never easily fulfilled. He has obstacles to overcome in order to reach his goals. If it were too easy, the story would be extremely boring.
well that's the thing dear Triplet, there's making the journey difficult and interesting, and then there's doing Smallville is doing.

I'm all for creating drama, conflict, and adversity for the characters no doubt, but what the show has done is take that idea way way WAY! too far, just to get as much money out of it as they can.

I firmly believe there has to have been a way they could have made the show as tight and gripping and interesting and as difficult for Clark as possible WITHOUT damaging the core of what the character is, which I feel they did.

[litew8]

I feel sorry for Tom. To have to play a character with no balls. Is it me or was Clark more Supermanly when Jonathon was still alive? He must be rolling in his grave.That's EXACTLY what I think. And it could VERY well be that John S. had a major influence on the cast and crew - which might be why John S. said the producers were quick to want to get rid of him. And even though it may be too late, I still say -

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!
Make Clark a man already!
Bring back John Schneider to help produce!

----- Added 10 Minutes later -----


Regrettably, many people are unable to separate fact from fiction. And it is well known that fictional violence breeds actual violence. By approving TV violence you defy your alleged pacifist ideals in real life. May I refer you to this post (especially at the end):

http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3702566&postcount=63

I think this woman has summarized it nicely...

Regrettably, I think you and Rose_tta are misinterperting the episode.
I strongly disagree with Rose_tta's approach and how the person attempted to
portray the episode. And now it seems that you are taking those misinterperted
points and unfairly directing them towards Triplet.

Here are my responses (and a reply) -

1st Response (http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3702556&postcount=62)
2nd Response (http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3703216&postcount=66)
A reply to Fractured (http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3705383&postcount=73)
3rd Response (http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3717313&postcount=87) (the one I am injecting into this discussion here)

[jazel]

After watching Superman the Movie, and Supes II. I see little, or NO hope, of SV's Clark ever becoming Superman. He is so self-centered, and so anti-accepting where's he from (waste of Kara coming on board).:(
Guess I just can't imagine actually liking SV's CK, as much as I do Christopher Reeve's take on the man/superman.

[litew8]

Just because you and Rose_etta and others find some of the content of the show objectionable doesn't mean I should or would. While I thought that what Brainiac had done disturbing, and I believe I did make that clear in my review, I still found joy in the beauty of James' performance. But keep in mind that a large part of what I choose to review is the actor's work and I thought James Marsters had done a masterful job.
...
My reaction to the show is probably on a different level than other people's, because a lot of the joy I get out of the show comes from the execuction of it in terms of acting, directing and production design. Things other people simply don't notice, so it isn't just about the story for me.
...
I still enjoy the show quite a bit and I'm not ashamed of it and I like it enough that I will still write about it. You don't have to read my reviews if you find them so offensive to you, but I'm not going to change the way I do things because the show has crossed a line that others feel it shouldn't have crossed.I don't know you Triplet, and I have not read your commentary pertaining the episode (or whatnot). Even though you don't have to justify yourself to anyone, I do admire you for standing up and voicing your disposition in an attempt to clarify.

There's are a few things that I'm willing to say though -


Personally, I'm a pacifist. hate guns, never hit my kids... Wish the hell Bush had thought of something better to do with Trillions than invade Iraq...First you say this, then you say:


Is it a comic version of torture porn?These kind of remarks in your posts don't do you justice. You are attempting to explain away certain beliefs by others, yet you are willing to use the word porn to describe something? Uh,


I loved that Brainiac took delight in the cruelties he had done to Clark and to Lana, not because I wanted to glorify his actions, but because I enjoyed watching James do his work so well.This is my last point, and I think it might help explain the confusion alot of people are having, interperting the episode, and possibly your article (which I haven't read).

You stated that "Brainiac took delight in the cruelties he had done to Clark and to Lana". I think that is a inaccurate interpertation. I do not think Brainiac (a computer) is suppose to do things for pleasure. Nor do I think that he has emotions. Which means that he is incapable of portraying "sadism" like the others are suggesting. And which would be why it is inaccurate for "viewers" to percieve it that way. That would be a direct result of BAD ACTING, BAD WRITTING or BAD DIRECTING. I think it is a flaw, and it has gotten blown out of proportion as a result of the abovementioned. Brainiac does things to ACCOMPLISH goals, not to gain pleasure. He does RECOGNIZE human emotions and pleasures, and acts on behalf of them - in this case, a weakness of Clark's. But he doesn't do them for self-gratification.

[triplet]

I don't know you Triplet, and I have not read your commentary pertaining the episode (or whatnot). Even though you don't have to justify yourself to anyone, I do admire you for standing up and voicing your disposition in an attempt to clarify.

There's are a few things that I'm willing to say though -

First you say this, then you say:

These kind of remarks in your posts don't do you justice. You are attempting to explain away certain beleifs by others, yet you are willing to use the word porn? Uh,

Torture porn is a term recently coined in the media for all the torture horror films that people seem to like...

With films like the Saw films, Hostel, the one with the people stuck in the jungle (I forget the name of it) getting hunted and tortured by the natives, the torturing of characters have become so prevelent, it's been considered a sort of kink, like a kind of porn. Hence, torture porn.

I think it's the kind of thing rose_etta and TOMophilus were referring to so I used the term. That's all.


This is my last point, and I think it might help explain the confusion alot of people are having, interperting the episode, and possibly your article (which I haven't read).

You stated that "Brainiac took delight in the cruelties he had done to Clark and to Lana". I think that is a inaccurate interpertation. I do not think Brainiac (a computer) is suppose to do things for pleasure. Nor do I think that he has emotions. Which means that he is incapable of portraying "sadism" like the others are suggesting. And which would be why it is inaccurate for "viewers" to percieve it that way. That would be a direct result of BAD ACTING or BAD WRITTING. I think it is a flaw, and it has gotten blown out of proportion as a result of the abovementioned. Brainiac does things to ACCOMPLISH goals, not to gain pleasure. He does RECOGNIZE human emotions and pleasures, and acts on behalf of them - in this case, a weakness of Clark's. But he doesn't do them for self-gratification.

You think people are anthropomorphizing Brainiac? Thinking he is feeling things he can't?

I'm not sure that's the case... The way James Marsters plays Fine the man is mostly emotionless, but he gets angry and it sure looked like he felt delight at Lana and Clark's sufferings.

He looked delighted with Lana's fear when he was holding her and wouldn't let her get away, he even laughed. Later, he seemed pleased at Clark's pain at being unable to do anything to stop him from taking Kara away.

I think Brainiac feels and I don't think that it's a mistake. Brainiac is a very advanced computer that is self aware. It makes sense that a computer that advanced would also be possible to have feelings.

[litew8]

Torture porn is a term recently coined in the media for all the torture horror films that people seem to like...it's been considered a sort of kink, like a kind of porn. Hence, torture porn.Well, that doesn't surprise me considering how poor the media is today. People were saying that you were attempting to glorify torture, now I think it is attempting to glorify porn. It is an improper noun. There is no such thing. Being a writer, I'm sure you can think of more constructive, more proper words to use to describe. I just find it (the use of the word and the media today, not you personally) to be very degenerate.

(While I'm at it : put some clothes on your avatar!)


You think people are anthropomorphizing Brainiac? Thinking he is feeling things he can't? I'm not sure that's the case... The way James Marsters plays Fine the man is mostly emotionless, but he gets angry and it sure looked like he felt delight at Lana and Clark's sufferings.

He looked delighted with Lana's fear when he was holding her and wouldn't let her get away, he even laughed. Later, he seemed pleased at Clark's pain at being unable to do anything to stop him from taking Kara away.

I think Brainiac feels and I don't think that it's a mistake. Brainiac is a very advanced computer that is self aware. It makes sense that a computer that advanced would also be possible to have feelings.Yes (sort of). And that is the problem. Viewers aren't anthropomorphizing Brainiac, the producers/writers/actors have. The viewers saw and interperted bad writting/acting/directing of the character - they have ligetimate reason to have concerns of what they saw (and to have interperted it in a negative way). Brainiac is a very advanced computer aware of ohters emotions/feelings. I don't beleive he is suppose to have any himself. I don't think he is suppose take pleasure. What he does is to accomplish his tasks/objectives. And as you said, he did crack a smile when speaking with Clark (before he flew off). I think that (and others you mentioned) was a major mistake (on behalf of the show/actor).

I think it is poor writing and poor acting/directing attributed to the show itself - not so much people's interpertation. They've written/directed/acted the character Brainiac wrong. If you would have recognized that, and wrote about it instead, you're piece would have been outstanding (even though I haven't read it).

[triplet]

Well, that doesn't surprise me considering how poor the media is today. People were saying that you were attempting to glorify torture, now I think it is attempting to glorify porn. It is an improper noun. There is no such thing. Being a writer, I'm sure you can think of more constructive, more proper words to use to describe. I just find it (the use of the word and the media today, not you personally) to be very degenerate.

(While I'm at it : put some clothes on your avatar!)

I have no idea what you're talking about now...

What's not proper about using a term I've seen used in Newsweek? And I like my avie just fine... I've used it for years and won't change it.


Yes (sort of). And that is the problem. Viewers aren't anthropomorphizing Brainiac - they saw and interperted bad writting/acting/directing of the character - they have ligetimate reason to have concerns of what they saw. Brainiac is a very advanced computer aware of ohters emotions/feelings. I don't beleive he is suppose to have any himself. I don't think he is suppose take pleasure. What he does is to accomplish his tasks/objectives. And as you said, he did crack a smile when speaking with Clark (before he flew off). I think that (and others you mentioned) was a major mistake (on behalf of the show/actor).

I think it is poor writing and poor acting/directing attributed to the show itself - not so much people's interpertation. They've written/directed/acted the character Brainiac wrong. If you would have recognized that, and wrote about it instead, you're piece would have been outstanding (even though I haven't read it).

Well, that's certainly your opinion, but I happen to like what they have done with brainiac.

And I'm not sure why you keep commenting on my review if you haven't read it.

[litew8]

I have no idea what you're talking about now...What's not proper about using a term I've seen used in Newsweek? And I like my avie just fine... I've used it for years and won't change it.Explain to me how the word "porn" can be used accurately in the manner in which you've used it. Give me the definition of the word and explain how it makes any sense. Just because "Newsweek" chooses to use it doesn't make it right, or correct.


Well, that's certainly your opinion, but I happen to like what they have done with brainiac. And I'm not sure why you keep commenting on my review if you haven't read it.I don't necessarily have to read your review to imagine what it reads like. Your comments here pretty much express its context. Besides, that's primarily what the (recent) topic seems to be surrounding.

Criticing: This activity is not limited to noting what's wrong or bad about an article. Critiquing a piece of writing involves considering what the author has either told you or implies she or he is going to do (prove, explain, interpret) in the article and evaluating how well or not the author has done so. A critique can also serve to explain to its readers in what ways the article advances knowledge in the field.

[Hopefulsuicide]

if your going to comment on a term coined in other media, at least research it... i didn't find the term 'torture porn' any more offensive than the idea of 'torture Clark' fanfiction (which i love by the way) and it seems to me like you argueing a mute point

also, please read the reveiw... what people have expressed on this forum about it, and even what triplet has said in this thread, are IMO not a good reflection of the review itself... you may change your mind

[triplet]

Explain to me how the word "porn" can be used accurately in the manner in which you've used it. Give me the definition of the word and explain how it makes any sense. Just because "Newsweek" chooses to use it doesn't make it right, or correct.

Do you realize how arrogant you sound?

I might be a writer, or at least I pretend to be one on the internet, but I don't profess to be an expert grammarian.

And just because you've never heard of a term doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The fact that it may or may not be "correct" Enligsh is largely irrelevant to any point that anyone has tried to make in this thread.

You don't accept it as a correct usage in English. Fine. Truth is I've read it in several articles on the phenomena of having intense torture scenes in horror films. I was merely referring to that aspect in certain comics, I didn't even mean it in terms of what had happened in Smallville. It doesn't even come close to the same level of brutality...



I don't necessarily have to read your review to imagine what it reads like. Your comments here pretty much express its context. Besides, that's primarily what the (recent) topic seems to be surrounding.

Criticing: This activity is not limited to noting what's wrong or bad about an article. Critiquing a piece of writing involves considering what the author has either told you or implies she or he is going to do (prove, explain, interpret) in the article and evaluating how well or not the author has done so. A critique can also serve to explain to its readers in what ways the article advances knowledge in the field.

Okay, again I must ask: Do you realize how arrogant you sound?

Why should I be drawn into a debate with you based on your critique of my reviews if you've never even bothered to read them. How can you even derive any reasonable idea of what I talk about in my review from a few dozen sentences I've written here?

Before you talk about my reviews again, do me the pleasure of reading them first.

Otherwise, you have no right to complain.



if your going to comment on a term coined in other media, at least research it... i didn't find the term 'torture porn' any more offensive than the idea of 'torture Clark' fanfiction (which i love by the way) and it seems to me like you argueing a mute point

also, please read the reveiw... what people have expressed on this forum about it, and even what triplet has said in this thread, are IMO not a good reflection of the review itself... you may change your mind

Thank you.

It's hard to express in a couple of hundred words exactly what I talked about in almost 3,500 in my review. I'm glad at least some people here recognize that, so thank you.

And the way this thread has turned angry toward me is the very reason I had Craig stop making the comment threads for my reviews. People were getting into very heated debates on my review threads, so heated that people were banned. I don't want this to degenerate into anything like that.

So I think I'm done here. In any case, we've gotten away from the topic on hand and need to get back to talking about whether or not Clark is Superman-like in recent episodes.

[litew8]

Do you realize how arrogant you sound?I'm going to throw this remark right back at you. The reason why you do not provide a definition to the word "porn" and how it can possibly make any sense in conjunction with the word "torture" - is because you cannot, and it doesn't. If you attempted to, it would sound so riduculous and prove my point.

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----


if your going to comment on a term coined in other media, at least research it... i didn't find the term 'torture porn' any more offensive than the idea of 'torture Clark' fanfiction (which i love by the way) and it seems to me like you argueing a mute point

also, please read the reveiw... what people have expressed on this forum about it, and even what triplet has said in this thread, are IMO not a good reflection of the review itself... you may change your mind(moot point is what you are trying to turn my comments into - it won't work) Reasearch what exactly? The definition of the two words and how absurd it is to use them in conjunction? If Triplet doesn't want to provide the definition of both words and explain how it is they can possibly make any sense in conjunction, maybe you'd like to do everyone the favor. Go ahead. I'll wait.

----- Added 5 Minutes later -----


Why should I be drawn into a debate with you based on your critique of my reviews if you've never even bothered to read them. How can you even derive any reasonable idea of what I talk about in my review from a few dozen sentences I've written here? Before you talk about my reviews again, do me the pleasure of reading them first. Otherwise, you have no right to complain.Based on what I've read here (you defending your position), I can clearly tell you have a bias. I don't need to actually read the article to derive specific examples. And nobody said you need to or should be drawn into a debate with me. That's your choice. Just be prepared if you so choose. On a side note - I'm not complaining, I'm just mentioning. Consider it CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM.

_

[triplet]

You know, I take it back not coming back because this is actually getting entertaining.


I'm going to throw this remark right back at you. The reason why you do not provide a definition to the word "porn" and how it can possibly make any sense in conjunction with the word "torture" - is because you cannot, and it doesn't. If you attempted to, it would sound so riduculous and prove my point.

Again, because you haven't heard of a term doesn't make instantly nonsense. It is a real term and it does make sense, when used in a certain context.

But since you asked, Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splatter_film) defined "torture porn" like this:


A combination of graphic violence and sexually suggestive imagery has at times been labeled "torture porn" or "gorno" (a portmanteau of "gore" and "porno").

And actually, it was in the New York Magazine where I saw the term used, not Newsweek. I mispoke.

See the original article here:

http://nymag.com/movies/features/15622/ (http://nymag.com/movies/features/15622/)

See other places that have used the term here (it actually is a fairly common term, just try googling "torture porn"):

http://www.popsyndicate.com/column/story/torture_porn/ (http://www.popsyndicate.com/column/story/torture_porn/)

www.thehorrorblog.com/2007/09/06/on-<WBR>torture-porn (http://www.thehorrorblog.com/2007/09/06/on-torture-porn)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/6238204.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/6238204.stm)

http://blogs.suntimes.com/scanners/2007/06/torture_porn_want_popcorn_with.html (http://blogs.suntimes.com/scanners/2007/06/torture_porn_want_popcorn_with.html)

Actually, that last one probably would be the most interesting for you since he writes in detail about the term "porn" and then talks about it in terms of how it could be applied to horror films.

The most salient part:


I value the term "torture porn" -- when properly applied, with critical elaboration -- because it describes quite specifically a kind of film designed for the primary purpose of pumping the audience (and/or the filmmakers) to get off on the torture, the pain, the flesh, the gore -- and where these hardcore scenes are the very "meat" of the movie, if you will. (I don't think it necessarily means that the actors or the filmmakers are getting sexual kicks from watching or shooting it, only that torture is being treated in ways similar to the portrayal of sex in pornography, as its raison d'être.)

I used "torture porn" in reference to comics to try and make a point becuase there is a lot of gratuitous and very extreme torment in comics (just read the Superman/Batman Annual #2 to see what I mean), but that term is more often used with film.


Based on what I've read here (you defending your position), I can clearly tell you have a bias. I don't need to actually read the article to derive specific examples. And nobody said you need to or should be drawn into a debate with me. That's your choice. Just be prepared if you so choose. On a side note - I'm not complaining, I'm just mentioning. Consider it CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM.

_

Just saying or not, I still don't see how you could possibly give constructive criticism about something you've not bothered to read.

And what should I be prepared for? I'm actually very curious...

I am more than ready for anyone to critique my reviews. I've been doing this a long time and I am more than willing to defend anything I had put into a review. I don't put my thoughts there for the world to see only to run and hide when challenged by someone....

So, if you want to take a swing at me, be my guest.

I'm sure I will be able to hold my own.

[litew8]

- - - - - - - -

(source = FindLaw (http://writ.news.findlaw.com/hilden/20070716.html) ) excerpts:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

"The phrase "torture porn," which has been repeatedly applied to the Writer/Director Eli Roth's recent movie "Hostel II," is telling in terms of the new movement to conflate sexuality and violence - and it's spreading virally. Entertainment Weekly used the term; and five of the featured reviews on the popular movie ratings site RottenTomatoes.com use variations on this theme. This summer, New York magazine's reviewer David Edelstein devoted an entire article to the concept."

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

"Yet it seems ironic, here, that arguments for censorship (or at least NC-17 ratings) are based on a deep misunderstanding of the message that is actually sent by the movies at issue. The label "torture porn" implies that movies like "Hostel" and "Hostel II" present torture as somehow sexy. In fact, they present it as anything but."

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Excerpt from a different article. Thought I'd share it.
Seems to reflect the misuse of the term "torture porn".

"As I've argued in earlier columns -- such as this one on so-called "torture porn," and this one on a Danish newspaper's controversial Muhammad cartoons, depicting the Islamic prophet -- it is important, when privately evaluating a work to consider if one personally finds it offensive, to focus not just on work's content, but also on its perspective and viewpoint. For instance, if a work is satirical or meant to provoke, that may well be relevant. Otherwise, we fall into the position of simply saying that the depiction of certain things, or the mere pronunciation of certain words, regardless of the context, is inherently offensive."

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Julie Hilden, a FindLaw columnist, graduated from Yale Law School in 1992.
She practiced First Amendment law at the D.C. law firm of Williams & Connolly from 1996-99.

Not suggesting that I agree with the entire article,
she is suggesting that the term is misleading/innacurate.

----- Added 30 Minutes later -----


Just saying or not, I still don't see how you could possibly give constructive criticism about something you've not bothered to read.I did read your comment(s) within this thread.
That is what I initially was responding to (Brainiac and choice of words)- not your article.
I suspect your article reads similar.

----- Added 1 Hours and 5 Minutes later -----


Again, because you haven't heard of a term doesn't make instantly nonsense. It is a real term and it does make sense, when used in a certain context. But since you asked, Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splatter_film) defined "torture porn" like thisWikipedia is not a valid source. Anyone can edit that to have it say or define anything. All of the other instances you mentioned (linked to) are just as incompetent. You could provide a hundred more of those types of links and it still wouldn't convince me otherwise. Since you refused to provide the definitions of the two words and attempt to make sense out of them, I'll do it here (for you) - though I will not attempt to justify the use of the words together:

Torture porn is not defined in law.
Laws do define torture and pornography separately.

Torture is the intentional infliction of severe physical or mental pain on a person for the purposes of obtaining information or a confession, punishment, or intimidation.

Pornography is visual depictions, including photograph, film, and video, of actual or simulated sexually explicit conduct, such as lascivious exhibition of the genitals, sexual acts, sadistic or masochistic abuse.

From these definitions, torture porn may be deduced as the intentional infliction of severe physical or mental pain for interrogative, punitive, or abusive purposes by forcing a person to engage in sexually explicit behavior which is recorded, or staged before a live audience.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The fact of the matter is, the more people choose to use that phrase, the more they are (consciencely or not) promoting porn or suggesting that it's okay to use in conjunction with other words to describe something - as if somehow it actually makes sense (that is degenerate). That assumption couldn't be further from the truth. As the lawyer above mentioned, using the term can undermind fact from fiction if aspects are codified and described with such a sweeping (nonsense phrase) manner. And as the latter cleary defines the words themselves - it's nearly impossible to use the words in conjunction to describe anything but what the words themselves actually define.

The phrase was fabricated.
It is not a "real term" to describe distaste or horror films.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
My very first comment associated with you, and comments being directed towards you, were comments suggesting that the writers, producers, directors or actor mirepresented the Brainiac character. And that the character should be incapable of expressing "sadism" as others have suggested. Though it seems as if that is what was represented in a couple of scenes, unfortunately. In your replies to me, it sounds as if you have a bias in favor of the actor portraying the character, or the character himself (Brainiac). Not having a non-bias stance to begin with. If your reveiw reflects positive review of what the actor or character displayed in the episode Veritas, it could very well be that you were mislead or have a faulty understanding of what the character is or should be, in actuality. I haven't read your article/review - so I haven't commented about it. I've only addressed things you've said here, within this thread - and I'm assuming it reflects your article.

As for your choice of words - constructive criticism. Take it however you'd like. I was just trying to point out something to you, hoping you'd take it as such (constructive criticism) and possibly think twice before using such terms. You do want KryptonSite, and yourself to be the best it/you can be, I'd suspect. So don't get upset. I'm not taking a swing at you.

[TigerLily83]

The problem is litew8, that whilst you first began posting about triplet's comments on this thread you have moved from doing so to offering 'constructive criticism' on her whole article - based on what she has said in this thread.

I have read these comments between you two and there is nothing 'constructive' about what you are saying. Go ahead and give me some flak for saying so but I am not a simpleton with an IQ below 100, who knows nothing of these things. I think you are using this term as a means to end, to justify the comments you have made.

Just a by point too - as far as I was aware, the BRAINIAC broke away from it's original programming, having been built by Jor-El to aid the side of good; however it joined with Zod instead. While I don't know the precise details, how can you assume that any AI machine is essentially emotionless, especially when it has broken away from the reason it was created in the first place? Isn't the premise of an AI machine - especially one in a fictional universe - that it can read, understand and mimic the emotions of a human? I have not come across one fictional AI machine that does not have emotions.

And another thing litew8, lose the attitude. While I enjoy reading the majority of your posts you do come across as quite full of yourself. There is nothing wrong with the concept of 'torture porn' except your unwillingness to accept it. The term has been coined, people are using it. Get over it. Triplet wasn't talking about the two concepts as they are defined separately but rather a 'phrase' which contains a meaning of it's own. These things are allowed in the scope of the English, and other, languages.

[litew8]

The problem is litew8, that whilst you first began posting about triplet's comments on this thread you have moved from doing so to offering 'constructive criticism' on her whole article - based on what she has said in this thread.No, it was "constructive criticism" of what was posted here - not her article. I even stated as much. If you think I'm mistaken, provide some examples. Sure, some of the comments I made could carry over to her article (if any of what I suspected is accurate), but I honestly haven't read the article, and my comments were soley confined to this thread.


I have read these comments between you two and there is nothing 'constructive' about what you are saying. Go ahead and give me some flak for saying so but I am not a simpleton with an IQ below 100, who knows nothing of these things. I think you are using this term as a means to end, to justify the comments you have made.I disagree - and that isn't, nor wasn't my intent.


Just a by point too - as far as I was aware, the BRAINIAC broke away from it's original programming, having been built by Jor-El to aid the side of good; however it joined with Zod instead. While I don't know the precise details, how can you assume that any AI machine is essentially emotionless, especially when it has broken away from the reason it was created in the first place? Isn't the premise of an AI machine - especially one in a fictional universe - that it can read, understand and mimic the emotions of a human? I have not come across one fictional AI machine that does not have emotions.Well, I work with computers - in the real world, they don't smile at me.
Intelligence does not equate emotion or self-gratification.
Awareness perhaps (self-awareness), but not emotion or self-gratification.


And another thing litew8, lose the attitude. While I enjoy reading the majority of your posts you do come across as quite full of yourself. There is nothing wrong with the concept of 'torture porn' except your unwillingness to accept it. The term has been coined, people are using it. Get over it. Triplet wasn't talking about the two concepts as they are defined separately but rather a 'phrase' which contains a meaning of it's own. These things are allowed in the scope of the English, and other, languages.Thanks for the complement. Of course I totally disagree with your other comments. There's no reason for me, or anyone, to "willingly" accept it. The term makes no sense, it is a fabrication. Get over it. See, I can say those things too. :D I've already explained why the two cannot be used in conjunction - I'm not going to go over it again.

[TigerLily83]

The only problem I have with the above is this particular comment:


Well, I work with computers - in the real world, they don't smile at me.

I also work with computers in the real world but Smallville is not the real world. The rules don't have to apply.

And you're welcome. I will and I have. My temperament is short lived.:D

[litew8]

The only problem I have with the above is this particular comment: I also work with computers in the real world but Smallville is not the real world. The rules don't have to apply. And you're welcome. I will and I have. My temperament is short lived.:D:D As I have yours. A computer is a computer is a computer. If it wasn't a computer, it'd be called, or refered to as, something else.

A horse is a horse, of course, of course,
And no one can talk to a horse of course
That is, of course, unless the horse is the famous Mister Ed.

Go right to the source and ask the horse
He’ll give you the answer that you’ll endorse.
He’s always on a steady course.
Talk to Mister Ed.

People yakkity yak a streak and waste your time of day
But Mr. Ed will never speak unless he has something to say

A horse is a horse, of course, of course,
And this one’ll talk ‘til his voice is hoarse.
You never heard of a talking horse?

Well listen to this: "I'm Mister Ed."

[HalJordan4184]

MOD NOTE:

This thread is quickly getting way out of control. We all should know by now, exactly how against the rules it is to talk about other posters personally, and not stick to the topics. Just as a reminder, this was a topic about how some feel about Clark's particular Superman-liness in a particular episode, and arc. Triplet's review, even where it could be connected to discussing Clark's character, is not the focus of this thread. Take your problems to PM's, and stick to the topic.

Re read the rules please, and lets all get back to the topics at hand.

[All about Clark]

Has anyone considered Braniac to be a living machine. Meaning he can learn emotion.

Personally I believe Braniac to be portraying emotion to get a desired response.

However, I'm not ruling out the idea that Braniac's usage of emotion for the purposes of manipulation can indeed backfire as to be like being infected with a virus. First you use it, then you begin to feel it. I actually felt that Braniac had taken on a new level of emotion in this episode, like he was using it as a tool that might be getting away from him. It's an interesting concept I guess whether posters think Braniac can learn. Love to hear your thoughts on this.

[Hopefulsuicide]

MOD NOTE:

This thread is quickly getting way out of control. We all should know by now, exactly how against the rules it is to talk about other posters personally, and not stick to the topics. Just as a reminder, this was a topic about how some feel about Clark's particular Superman-liness in a particular episode, and arc. Triplet's review, even where it could be connected to discussing Clark's character, is not the focus of this thread. Take your problems to PM's, and stick to the topic.

Re read the rules please, and lets all get back to the topics at hand.

thanks for the re direction (even though i had some good come backs right up my sleeve :lol:)

i'm not really sure how much more i can say about Clark at the moment. i need knew fuel... i suspect, due to the direction the show has been taking Clark in, and the fact that other things will be happening in new episodes that will distract from finding Kara and braniac, that we will see a lot more of what i consider uncharacteristic behaviour from 'Clark Kent/Superman'

will make one point, which you probably have to go back ages to find it relevent, but people seperating Clark and Superman i find ridiculous

i've seen a lot of people argue that 'he's not Superman yet' and 'he's never professed to be Superman'

if you are of my line of thinking, Superman is just a nickname and the suit is just a disguise... when i say he is not being Supermanly enough, i mean he's not being Clark Kenty enough. Clark Kent is the one who decides to put on the suit. Clark Kent is the Hero.

[Cogito17]

thanks for the re direction (even though i had some good come backs right up my sleeve :lol:)

i'm not really sure how much more i can say about Clark at the moment. i need knew fuel... i suspect, due to the direction the show has been taking Clark in, and the fact that other things will be happening in new episodes that will distract from finding Kara and braniac, that we will see a lot more of what i consider uncharacteristic behaviour from 'Clark Kent/Superman'


Personally, I think thats an unfair way to approach the show. If you are approaching the show with the attitude of looking for material to fuel your argument that Clark is un-Supermanlike, then of course you are going to find it. It's an easy path to committing confirmation bias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias).

If you are looking for less Supermanly behavior, you can find it in just about any incarnation of the story. I have seen comic book covers with Superman endorsing the racist slur "Its OK to slap a Jap". In the movies, I have seen Superman despair and destroy a bar, and be so petty as to hunt down a normal human just to prove he could beat him up. In the cartoons, he carelessly destroys buildings, putting people's lives at risk (and though it isn't shown, some people had to have died).

My point is that if you are looking for un-Supermanlike behavior, you are going to find it. In Superman's other tellings, it seems like people are more likely to adopt the Superman attitude of looking for the best in the character, whereas with Smallville's incarnation they are looking for the worst. Its rare to see discussion on Clark's Superman-like qualities (Ex. He was unwilling to give in to Brainiac's demands this episode even though he presented the only way to save Lana, putting aside his personal feelings for a greater good). I'm not saying that he doesn't have his slip-ups and mistakes, but to focus on and seek out his shortcomings only is an injustice to the character.

[berniepooh]

I feel like I'm back on my grade school playground.

"Fight, fight, fight, fight!!"

Have the monitors starting heading this way yet?

[litew8]

Personally, I think thats an unfair way to approach the show. If you are approaching the show with the attitude of looking for material to fuel your argument that Clark is un-Supermanlike, then of course you are going to find it. It's an easy path to committing confirmation bias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias).

If you are looking for less Supermanly behavior, you can find it in just about any incarnation of the story. I have seen comic book covers with Superman endorsing the racist slur "Its OK to slap a Jap". In the movies, I have seen Superman despair and destroy a bar, and be so petty as to hunt down a normal human just to prove he could beat him up. In the cartoons, he carelessly destroys buildings, putting people's lives at risk (and though it isn't shown, some people had to have died).

My point is that if you are looking for un-Supermanlike behavior, you are going to find it. In Superman's other tellings, it seems like people are more likely to adopt the Superman attitude of looking for the best in the character, whereas with Smallville's incarnation they are looking for the worst. Its rare to see discussion on Clark's Superman-like qualities (Ex. He was unwilling to give in to Brainiac's demands this episode even though he presented the only way to save Lana, putting aside his personal feelings for a greater good). I'm not saying that he doesn't have his slip-ups and mistakes, but to focus on and seek out his shortcomings only is an injustice to the character.Part of my reason for posting (above) was to also express that if the writers/producers are mischaracterizing the character Brainiac, it is also very possible (and at times, ALOT of the times - VERY obvious) that they are mischaracterizing the character of Clark Kent. There's way too many examples of this to not be true. Un-Superman like, without a doubt. Especially if it is Un-Clark Kent like to begin with.

[HalJordan4184]

Personally, I think thats an unfair way to approach the show. If you are approaching the show with the attitude of looking for material to fuel your argument that Clark is un-Supermanlike, then of course you are going to find it. It's an easy path to committing confirmation bias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias).

If you are looking for less Supermanly behavior, you can find it in just about any incarnation of the story. I have seen comic book covers with Superman endorsing the racist slur "Its OK to slap a Jap". In the movies, I have seen Superman despair and destroy a bar, and be so petty as to hunt down a normal human just to prove he could beat him up. In the cartoons, he carelessly destroys buildings, putting people's lives at risk (and though it isn't shown, some people had to have died).

My point is that if you are looking for un-Supermanlike behavior, you are going to find it. In Superman's other tellings, it seems like people are more likely to adopt the Superman attitude of looking for the best in the character, whereas with Smallville's incarnation they are looking for the worst. Its rare to see discussion on Clark's Superman-like qualities (Ex. He was unwilling to give in to Brainiac's demands this episode even though he presented the only way to save Lana, putting aside his personal feelings for a greater good). I'm not saying that he doesn't have his slip-ups and mistakes, but to focus on and seek out his shortcomings only is an injustice to the character.


The problem with this argument arises in the fact unsuperman-like behavior on Smallville is more the NORM, than the EXCEPTION. Superman/Clark Kent in the other incarnations, was portrayed for the vast majority of the time, as the character we know or love, or in the instances he wasn't, usually had some sort of reasoning that made sense behind it. (I won't say always, because that's not necessarily the case. Slap a Jap was a low point, during a propoganda war in WWII, and there have been others) Superman in the movies, was easily recognizable as SUperman, and the bar scene, was portrayed as a dark warped, not regular Superman. It was a dark Superman, born of some weird Kryptonite exposure. Superman in the cartoons, was not doing anything Superman of the comics hasn't done. Collateral damage has always occured in SUperman's fights, and some wonderful stories were actually born out of his struggle to come to terms with things like that, and other people's differing levels of acceptance of it.

Smallville however, is more out of the norm, and doesn't mesh. It does have high moment's, and some good qualities. However, Superman-like moments, and what is usually considered "normal" Clark Kent behavior and attitudes, isn't a part of it. Those come too frequently, and the producers themselves even admitted they were making their Clark different as the later seasons came out. However, they then tried to say nothing was different about him at all. That's the problem. I don't have to look to find un Clark Kent-like behavior. The first time it happened, it stood out right away. The second time, it stood out again. Now it doesn't stand out at all, because it's become Smallville's Clark Kent's typical behavior.

[Hopefulsuicide]

Personally, I think thats an unfair way to approach the show. If you are approaching the show with the attitude of looking for material to fuel your argument that Clark is un-Supermanlike, then of course you are going to find it. It's an easy path to committing confirmation bias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias).

If you are looking for less Supermanly behavior, you can find it in just about any incarnation of the story. I have seen comic book covers with Superman endorsing the racist slur "Its OK to slap a Jap". In the movies, I have seen Superman despair and destroy a bar, and be so petty as to hunt down a normal human just to prove he could beat him up. In the cartoons, he carelessly destroys buildings, putting people's lives at risk (and though it isn't shown, some people had to have died).

My point is that if you are looking for un-Supermanlike behavior, you are going to find it. In Superman's other tellings, it seems like people are more likely to adopt the Superman attitude of looking for the best in the character, whereas with Smallville's incarnation they are looking for the worst. Its rare to see discussion on Clark's Superman-like qualities (Ex. He was unwilling to give in to Brainiac's demands this episode even though he presented the only way to save Lana, putting aside his personal feelings for a greater good). I'm not saying that he doesn't have his slip-ups and mistakes, but to focus on and seek out his shortcomings only is an injustice to the character.

i'm actually going to agree with you here, because although i agree with HalJordon that this version of Clark Kent is more consistently un superman, it is unfair to approach the show expecting to be dissapointed and find flaws, because as you rightly say, if your looking for them you will find them

the problem is, i have been so consistently dissapointed, that while i can enjoy the show on face value on the first veiwing, i'm used to picking up on things that are reminiscent of old dissapointments etc

also, i'm not just a moaner (not that your suggesting i am, but i am starting to worry about myself :lol:) i don't pick at any other show. i adore television shows. i think my passion for Superman and my passion for Smallville in general makes me expect a lot more.

i consider Buffy and Superman my two obsessions. i could do mastermind on those subjects and kick ass! and i have rarely complained about anything on Buffy (other than the new comics... ) and i never used to complain about anything Superman or Smallville related. however, recently it has been very difficult to stop myself.

there must be a reason for this that can't be explained away by simple 'i like to moan' or 'i'm pedantic' (which i have considered!)

there is definately something to the arguements i produce IMO, but i so respect people for countering them because that is what makes a debate satisfying :)

[Cogito17]

Smallville however, is more out of the norm, and doesn't mesh. It does have high moment's, and some good qualities. However, Superman-like moments, and what is usually considered "normal" Clark Kent behavior and attitudes, isn't a part of it. Those come too frequently, and the producers themselves even admitted they were making their Clark different as the later seasons came out. However, they then tried to say nothing was different about him at all. That's the problem. I don't have to look to find un Clark Kent-like behavior. The first time it happened, it stood out right away. The second time, it stood out again. Now it doesn't stand out at all, because it's become Smallville's Clark Kent's typical behavior.

I think you make a good point about his "not Superman-like" behavior being the norm as opposed to the exception. Also, its refreshing to hear someone who is down on SV's Clark mention that he does do some good things and have good qualities.

The point I was more trying to make was (in response to Hopefulsuicide) that if you are going into each episode of Smallville looking for proof of Clark's Un-supermanliness, then thats what you're going to find (As I attempted to illustrate with examples from comics/movies/etc). I understand being slightly jaded after several years of the show, but it just seems like there are more people actively looking for proof of his un-supermanliness, than those looking for examples of his supermanliness and its unfair to the character to actively seek out one to the exclusion of the other.

P.S. Someone needs to make up a verb that means "Acting like Superman", because typing out "Superman-like behavior" over and over is a pain! :p

Edit
Sorry, saw Hopefulsuicide's response just before mine...

I think the word you are looking for is passionate! Nothing wrong with being passionate and wanting to see something you enjoy made better, thats what criticism is for.

I'm in agreement with most of what you said, I was just looking to remind that while it is OK and valid to criticize, its important not to do it at the exclusion of finding the positives that Smallville's CK/the show in general has to offer.

[litew8]

Definition of mischaracterize
v. t. - To characterize falsely or erroneously; to give a wrong character to

- - - - - - - - - - -
Could some elements of the character be correct? Absolutely.
If the characterization is off drastically, I don't think you can rationally determine or justify the fault soley on taste or distaste of the viewership. It lies on the shoulders of the writers/producers/directors and actors; collectively or independently. They are the root of problems with Smallville's un-Superman Clark Kent. The viewership can only form an opinion based off of what they are shown on screen. It's a big issue. Mischaracterizing Clark Kent to the point where there's no hope in seeing a respectable Superman evolve, it's ireversable damage.

[Hopefulsuicide]

P.S. Someone needs to make up a verb that means "Acting like Superman", because typing out "Superman-like behavior" over and over is a pain! :p

.

bloody hell yeah! :rotfl:

any ideas? :lol:

[NellieBlye8]

I just wish he would BECOME Superman

[Hopefulsuicide]

Edit
Sorry, saw Hopefulsuicide's response just before mine...

I think the word you are looking for is passionate! Nothing wrong with being passionate and wanting to see something you enjoy made better, thats what criticism is for.

I'm in agreement with most of what you said, I was just looking to remind that while it is OK and valid to criticize, its important not to do it at the exclusion of finding the positives that Smallville's CK/the show in general has to offer.

yeah i agree, and i have been negatively focused... but as you can see from my initial posts about Veritas, i did at first think it was good a post positively... maybe it's this site that's a bad influence... maybe if i didn't come to Ksite and read all the negative points from others i wouldn't start analysing it myself and coming up with one of my own :lol:

we are all bad influences on each other :rotfl:

[HalJordan4184]

I think you make a good point about his "not Superman-like" behavior being the norm as opposed to the exception. Also, its refreshing to hear someone who is down on SV's Clark mention that he does do some good things and have good qualities.

The point I was more trying to make was (in response to Hopefulsuicide) that if you are going into each episode of Smallville looking for proof of Clark's Un-supermanliness, then thats what you're going to find (As I attempted to illustrate with examples from comics/movies/etc). I understand being slightly jaded after several years of the show, but it just seems like there are more people actively looking for proof of his un-supermanliness, than those looking for examples of his supermanliness and its unfair to the character to actively seek out one to the exclusion of the other.

P.S. Someone needs to make up a verb that means "Acting like Superman", because typing out "Superman-like behavior" over and over is a pain! :p

Edit
Sorry, saw Hopefulsuicide's response just before mine...

I think the word you are looking for is passionate! Nothing wrong with being passionate and wanting to see something you enjoy made better, thats what criticism is for.

I'm in agreement with most of what you said, I was just looking to remind that while it is OK and valid to criticize, its important not to do it at the exclusion of finding the positives that Smallville's CK/the show in general has to offer.

I've said time and again, I think Smallville's Clark could be a decent superhero. However, he won't be exceptional, and that's what I mean by not Superman. He's not going to encompass the above average (for the superhero community especially) ideals and characteristics, that set him apart from the other heroes. I think Clark is definately saveable, in terms of his morality, and his good versus bad qualities. However, hope of seeing him be the iconic Superman most have come to know and love, is gone. He can still wear an S on his chest, and call himself Superman, but he's missing a lot of what other Supermen have had.

[vezz801]

i think Clark will become Superman or something similar in the series finale...

[HalJordan4184]

He can't become Superman, he's already got a character, that is contrary to what Superman needs to be in a lot of ways, and you can't just magically erase those things, and say, voila, he's Superman now.

[dru-zod2501]

He can't become Superman, he's already got a character, that is contrary to what Superman needs to be in a lot of ways, and you can't just magically erase those things, and say, voila, he's Superman now.
but sadly, isnt that what we have to look forward to? unless they pull off a long series of small miracles that I don't for the life of me see how it's not

[litew8]

but sadly, isnt that what we have to look forward to? unless they pull off a long series of small miracles that I don't for the life of me see how it's notThat's the irony of it all. There's nothing you can do about it - except turn off the television set.

[Kevin24]

I think he is in limbo. I can see him being superman like, he has been alot during the series (Zod, subterranean, justice, bizarro, ageless, sneeze,wither,arrow,reunion, fallout, rage, freak, progency) Those are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head.

Alot of people's problem with him is that he doesn't act until trouble comes knocking on his door. I chalk that up to him not wanting people to know he has powers. So he hides his gifts because he thinks people won't accept him for who he is. SO yeah that can translate to him just wanting to be normal. The past two seasons he has been more accepting of who he really is and I do see him accepting his destiny.

Clark just doesn't know how to go about becoming this great hero. Also all that whining people say he does over lana , he does that with lois in the comics......so I don't really see a problem with that at all.

[HalJordan4184]

Clark does not whine over Lois, as he does over Lana. With Clark and Lois, they at least actually love each other, and Clark isn't willing to forsake the safety of the universe, over Lois. He tries to save everyone, and if that means he ends up forsaking his relationship with Lois, it's something he's willing to do. With Lana, he's willing to trade of other people's death, just to stay with her.

[Theshadow129x]

Yeah, thats what makes me not like smallville's depiction of Clark Kent. He's willing to forsake the rest of the world just for his girlfriend. It's very selfish just to please her when shes not really satisfied with anything he does. personally i'm getting tried of smallville's depiction of Clark Kent. It doesnt make sense for someone to want to become a superhero because they put someone else in danger like he has numerous times. Clark's problem is that he strives too much to be normal and have a normal life, but i also have to blame that on the writers on making his parents more paranoid about his secret being discovered. the comic book versions of his parents werent so trivial and paranoidabout his secret. that paranoia is also something that makes clark want to always hide in the shadows.

[Hopefulsuicide]

Superman's need to help people has always come first, i agree with you both. this is something that Lois felt about Green Arrow really... that he couldn't really be there for her because what he was doing was way bigger than her

in LnC in and alt universe when Lana put Clark on the spot and said Superman or me, what do you think he picked? certainly not that whiny selfish *beep* :lol:

the thing about Lois and Clark's love is that she accepts his passion and shares it. if she had powers she would do the exact same as him and she would never allow him to sit at home doing nothing. that wouldn't be the man she fell in love with.

i guess the problem with this Lana is that she fell in love with Clark when he was getting off his ass and doing things, and she started to get despondant when he stopped... i can understand that... but why not kick him in the butt and say 'DO SOMETHING!'

why does everyone in his life so readliy accept that he just wants to stay on the farm with Lana. why does no one challenge that. and i don't just mean the people who know his secret but even Lois or Jimmy or god even Lex coulhe d make a point of 'why the hell are you still in Smallville, you could be doing so much more with your life.'

but they don't

[All about Clark]

I don't think he does forsake the rest of the world for Lana. He has always been shown to leave Lana to save a life, a life he knows is threatened.

I think that Clark is small town minded right now, like he can only save the ones he knows about. A realistic small town problem for a guy from the sticks. That's why I like this depiction, because he's a small town guy who has to overcome his parents fears and his small town ways. This is actually more logical to me.

I still think that people dislike this Clark because he's not like any other incarnation. Not that he's really done wrong.

[Hopefulsuicide]

Personally i dislike Clark on Smallville because i am finding him as a character less and less interesting. he's constantly unhappy, he's not funny, he doesn't change, he rarely makes big decisions by himself and he seems to be incredibly dense sometimes

however, look at what you've said

'i still think that people dislike this Clark because he's not like any other incarnation.'

if this Clark doesn't resemble any other interpretation of Superman that what is it that makes him that character, and what gives them the right to call him Clark Kent? they have to follow some guidelines on the basic nature of the character, and i personally think these guidlines have been thrown out the window in order to fullfill other storylines that have nothing to do with Superman (which is where he should be very soon)

the thing is, i honestly think even if he wasn't called Clark Kent i'd still be moaning. Buffy stayed in Sunnydale because of the hellmouth. when that was gone, from watching Angel, we know she ended up in europe.

Clark is sticking around in Smallville with no real reason... does anyone have any explanation for why? no one is left in Smallville! nothing is left for either him or Lana... get an apartment in the city! (not that i think Lana should move to metropolis) he can't just run the farm forever... that's ridiculous!

All characters have more ambition than that. Clark seems to want nothing more than to hide. He doesn't have any career plans, he doesn't even seem to think about his future other than in terms of his 'destiny'... i mean you can run away from your destiny and still try and be someone at the same time... say my destiny was to be an ice dancer... well i wouldnt have to be nothing in order to stop from being an ice dancer... i could be a detective or a doctor and still avoid being an ice dancer (i know i know, terrible analogies :lol:)

[triplet]

- - - - - - - -

(source = FindLaw (http://writ.news.findlaw.com/hilden/20070716.html) ) excerpts:


Not suggesting that I agree with the entire article,
she is suggesting that the term is misleading/innacurate.

----- Added 30 Minutes later -----

I did read your comment(s) within this thread.
That is what I initially was responding to (Brainiac and choice of words)- not your article.
I suspect your article reads similar.

----- Added 1 Hours and 5 Minutes later -----

Wikipedia is not a valid source. Anyone can edit that to have it say or define anything. All of the other instances you mentioned (linked to) are just as incompetent. You could provide a hundred more of those types of links and it still wouldn't convince me otherwise. Since you refused to provide the definitions of the two words and attempt to make sense out of them, I'll do it here (for you) - though I will not attempt to justify the use of the words together:

Torture porn is not defined in law.
Laws do define torture and pornography separately.

Torture is the intentional infliction of severe physical or mental pain on a person for the purposes of obtaining information or a confession, punishment, or intimidation.

Pornography is visual depictions, including photograph, film, and video, of actual or simulated sexually explicit conduct, such as lascivious exhibition of the genitals, sexual acts, sadistic or masochistic abuse.

From these definitions, torture porn may be deduced as the intentional infliction of severe physical or mental pain for interrogative, punitive, or abusive purposes by forcing a person to engage in sexually explicit behavior which is recorded, or staged before a live audience.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The fact of the matter is, the more people choose to use that phrase, the more they are (consciencely or not) promoting porn or suggesting that it's okay to use in conjunction with other words to describe something - as if somehow it actually makes sense (that is degenerate). That assumption couldn't be further from the truth. As the lawyer above mentioned, using the term can undermind fact from fiction if aspects are codified and described with such a sweeping (nonsense phrase) manner. And as the latter cleary defines the words themselves - it's nearly impossible to use the words in conjunction to describe anything but what the words themselves actually define.

The phrase was fabricated.
It is not a "real term" to describe distaste or horror films.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
My very first comment associated with you, and comments being directed towards you, were comments suggesting that the writers, producers, directors or actor mirepresented the Brainiac character. And that the character should be incapable of expressing "sadism" as others have suggested. Though it seems as if that is what was represented in a couple of scenes, unfortunately. In your replies to me, it sounds as if you have a bias in favor of the actor portraying the character, or the character himself (Brainiac). Not having a non-bias stance to begin with. If your reveiw reflects positive review of what the actor or character displayed in the episode Veritas, it could very well be that you were mislead or have a faulty understanding of what the character is or should be, in actuality. I haven't read your article/review - so I haven't commented about it. I've only addressed things you've said here, within this thread - and I'm assuming it reflects your article.

As for your choice of words - constructive criticism. Take it however you'd like. I was just trying to point out something to you, hoping you'd take it as such (constructive criticism) and possibly think twice before using such terms. You do want KryptonSite, and yourself to be the best it/you can be, I'd suspect. So don't get upset. I'm not taking a swing at you.

Okay, I give up.

Just because the term isn't legally a word the fact remains it has entered into the American English in common usage. And the one article did clarify that so-called torture porn isn't necessarily sexual in nature.

Who cares if it isn't a real word?

And assuming anything I say in relatively few words jotted down in minutes accurately reflects thoughts expressed in a review I spent hours on is a ridiculous idea....

I've stated here, and other places, my reviews reflect my personal opinions and, because of that, will reflect my own personal biases. I don't pretend to try to be "objective" and Craig hasn't required that in any case.

All he required when I started writing here was that I have no shipping bias, and I don't.

As for having bias toward the actor, and thus his performance, I plead guilty.

Lock me up and throw away key.

I love James Marsters and I don't care one little bit that his Brainiac (Smallville's Brainiac) is more human than the machine as he'd been previously portrayed in comics and on TV (STAS, Justice League).

Again, I bring my biases into play because, ultimately, the review reflects my opinion.

You don't like me or my reviews, fine, don't read them, but if you're going to offer critiquie on my reviews, you better damn well read them.

Whatever, dude.

It's crap like this that made me not want the review commentary threads anymore.

Thanks for playing.

[Hopefulsuicide]

damnit! we just pulled the thread back on track and you go back to your off topic arguement again?

all of this could have been said in a PM!

while i supported you through the arguement, it was getting ridiculously far away from the origional topic, which was an innovative enough debate on it's own.

create a thread about torture porn if your going to discuss it's meaning at such a length that you have to start quoting sources. but don't do it in the middle of a thread that has nothing to do with torture porn, please!

you know that lite w8 is going to respond to what you've just written, especially ending it with 'whatever dude'... and then he will say something you respond to... and it will carry on some more... can't you just move it somewhere else

sorry it's just this is one of my favourite discussions and i don't want it to die completely just because you can't stop argueing semantics with another stubborn poster

[HalJordan4184]

I don't think he does forsake the rest of the world for Lana. He has always been shown to leave Lana to save a life, a life he knows is threatened.

I think that Clark is small town minded right now, like he can only save the ones he knows about. A realistic small town problem for a guy from the sticks. That's why I like this depiction, because he's a small town guy who has to overcome his parents fears and his small town ways. This is actually more logical to me.

I still think that people dislike this Clark because he's not like any other incarnation. Not that he's really done wrong.


This Clark isn't from a small town though. He lives in Kansas' sixth largest city. The producers of SMallville don't know what small town is. Smallville has a population bigger than the area I live, and we are compeltely and totally dense urban, even with some larger farms.

Clark has been spending most of his time in Metropolis as the season go by anyway. He shouldn't have the small town mentality, because he's never really been in a small town.

[Hopefulsuicide]

I don't think he does forsake the rest of the world for Lana. He has always been shown to leave Lana to save a life, a life he knows is threatened.

i'd say more often it's Clark leaving someone to go save Lana, not the other way around.

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----


This Clark isn't from a small town though. He lives in Kansas' sixth largest city. The producers of SMallville don't know what small town is. Smallville has a population bigger than the area I live, and we are compeltely and totally dense urban, even with some larger farms.

Clark has been spending most of his time in Metropolis as the season go by anyway. He shouldn't have the small town mentality, because he's never really been in a small town.

my town is smaller than Smallville too... and i'm doing a Journalism course at uni :lol:

if i had super powers, i'd be closer to superman than he is! :lol:

[triplet]

damnit! we just pulled the thread back on track and you go back to your off topic arguement again?

all of this could have been said in a PM!

while i supported you through the arguement, it was getting ridiculously far away from the origional topic, which was an innovative enough debate on it's own.

create a thread about torture porn if your going to discuss it's meaning at such a length that you have to start quoting sources. but don't do it in the middle of a thread that has nothing to do with torture porn, please!

you know that lite w8 is going to respond to what you've just written, especially ending it with 'whatever dude'... and then he will say something you respond to... and it will carry on some more... can't you just move it somewhere else

sorry it's just this is one of my favourite discussions and i don't want it to die completely just because you can't stop argueing semantics with another stubborn poster

Point taken...

The thread has gotten very far off of track, so I'll refrain from replying again.

No point really anyway.

[Cogito17]

I think that Clark actually behaved the opposite way of what was suggested in terms of putting Lana before the world. In Veritas, he was unwilling to give in to Brainiac's demands even though Brainiac said that he was the only one who could save Lana. So, he was putting the world before Lana, even allowing her to be in a state of perpetual torture for the greater good of the world.

If you think that Lana is the reason he hasn't embraced his destiny, and is therefore holding him back from doing great things in the world, I think there is a lot more at play than Lana as to why Clark hasn't really stepped up to the plate. First and foremost of which, I think is the portrayal of Jor-El. Jor-El at first sounded like he wanted Clark to conquer earth, and since has operated through ultimatums, threats, and causing a lot of pain to those Clark loves. We, as viewers, all know Jor-El's intentions are good, but from Clark's perspective he hasn't been given a whole lot of reason to trust Jor-El and subsequently, to embrace his Kryptonian heritage.

[HalJordan4184]

Not the old, embracing his kryptonian heritage thing. Clark becoming Superman, should have nothing to do with embracing his "kryptonian heritage". That would be detirmental to what makes Superman who he is. It's the human qualities that make Superman stand out. Not embracing a lost alien heritage.

Also, Lana isn't the only thing holding him back, but it is a big thing. He's even stated his only goal in life, is to live with Lana on the farm forever. Lana is a big factor in Clark's reluctance to go anywhere, or do anything. She even said it'd be wrong for him to stay because of her, and his weak answer, was a simple I'm not. Yet he's never shown any other reason for not even wanting to move on with life goals that have nothing to do with being Superman, that he expressed two or three seasons ago. Where did journalism go. You know, the thing he had developed a passion for, and was going to major in in college. Oh yeah, it disappeared, like everything else that might make Clark actually grow as a character.

[Hopefulsuicide]

i think i've definately decided my number one gripe with Smallville is that Clark has a 'destiny'

all of a sudden we have gone from a hero who grows up on a farm with simple loving parents, develops superpowers and decides to use them to help people... to a hero who grows up on a farm with simple loving parents (one of which dies because of an evil Jor-el and the other one becomes a senator), develops superpowers (except flight, because he doesnt want to do that yet) and tries his hardest not to go out and do anything with them until he finally gives in to his evil Jor-el and everyone else who is telling him he is meant for greatness and 'embraces his kryptonian heritage' (whatever that even means) and then uses his powers to 'save the world'

notice i did still call him a hero

Smallville Clark can still be called a hero, he's just not one i particularly like. Superman on the other hand is my favourite hero of all time.

[Cogito17]

Not the old, embracing his kryptonian heritage thing. Clark becoming Superman, should have nothing to do with embracing his "kryptonian heritage". That would be detirmental to what makes Superman who he is. It's the human qualities that make Superman stand out. Not embracing a lost alien heritage.

Also, Lana isn't the only thing holding him back, but it is a big thing. He's even stated his only goal in life, is to live with Lana on the farm forever. Lana is a big factor in Clark's reluctance to go anywhere, or do anything. She even said it'd be wrong for him to stay because of her, and his weak answer, was a simple I'm not. Yet he's never shown any other reason for not even wanting to move on with life goals that have nothing to do with being Superman, that he expressed two or three seasons ago. Where did journalism go. You know, the thing he had developed a passion for, and was going to major in in college. Oh yeah, it disappeared, like everything else that might make Clark actually grow as a character.

Clark's heritage not a part of who he is? Is that why he flies around with a big Kryptonian symbol on his chest? Being a Kryptonian is a defining part of who he is, if he weren't Kryptonian, he wouldn't be Superman, he'd just be some guy in a cape. From my understanding, Jor-El is supposed to be a mentor and a teacher to Clark and the fortress is a link to Krypton. Yet you are saying that accepting this part of his identity is irrelevant? I have to disagree.

I don't recall him saying his only goal in life was to live on the farm forever with Lana. Can you point me to an episode?

[HalJordan4184]

The S was never a Kryptonian symbol until the Reeve movies, and now Smallville. It was always just an S. It stood for Superman, not the house of El. Only in the last year or so have the comics adopted that point, much to my personal chagrin.

Jor-El has never, in the greater history of the factor, been some sort of tutor, who teaches Clark how to be the best representitive of humanity Earth has ever seen. That only came about anyway, because Marlon Brando had a huge ego, and his contract stipulated that he had to be the first person seen wearing Superman's S, and that he had to be responsible for making Clark Kent be Superman.

If Clark Kent were never Kryptonian, he'd still be a great man. Superman is first and foremost, not about his powers. It's about his hope, his beliefs, and his drive to make the world around him a better place.

There is a great comic where Clark tells Lois he doesn't think he's that special, and that if he were on Krypton, and never came to Earth, he thinks he'd probably be a plumber or something. Lois flat out tells him, that there is nothing about him, that would be remotely mediocre, or mundane (as that was the point he was trying to make, that without his powers, he thinks he'd just be another face in the crowd). She says, that even without super powers, she doesn't think there would be anything mundane or ordinary about Clark's life. He'd still be finding a way to make a difference. He doesn't, nor has he ever needed Jor-El to teach him that, and I find it insulting Smallville seems to say, Clark has no choice, he will be Superman, whether he likes it or not, cause we are all going to force him to be it, for his own good.

[blueyes]

I feel sorry for Tom. To have to play a character with no balls. Is it me or was Clark more Supermanly when Jonathon was still alive? He must be rolling in his grave.

Agreed.


well that's the thing dear Triplet, there's making the journey difficult and interesting, and then there's doing Smallville is doing.

I'm all for creating drama, conflict, and adversity for the characters no doubt, but what the show has done is take that idea way way WAY! too far, just to get as much money out of it as they can.

I firmly believe there has to have been a way they could have made the show as tight and gripping and interesting and as difficult for Clark as possible WITHOUT damaging the core of what the character is, which I feel they did.

Exactly. Very well said.

They just don't really care about Superman, but to make more and more $$ out of him and the concept, no matter how. IMO, the show should have ended long ago, that way the story would have been tighter and more engaging and interesting, without so much crap.:(

[Kevin24]

How old is clark ? 20? 21? LOL I don't even know if clark can drink legally yet. Lana and everyone around clark have one way or another told him that he is meant for greater things but it isn't their place to push and push him in that direction....The choice is his alone. Smallville has more detail in that process of him becoming superman, in the comics he just is that way automatically there is no process, its more like one day he wakes up and decides "hey i'll go save the world now"...

In smallville it's true that he doesn't go out into the world and try to save the day. I take that as him still being naive, he not thinking the world needs someone like him. He only knows of those around him and that's where his focus is because he hasn't seen more of the world, he has only been in smallville where everyone is basically nice and friendly with the occasional "meteor freak".

The truth is we don't even know how many people he has really saved because they don't show him saving people on the tv show, they just show stuff important to the story. He is already the type of person who is willing to give his life to save the billions of lives on earth, if his death meant the safety of the earth he would do it. He is in love cut him some slack, it's his first love and that is always the hardest to get over especially if they never break up because they don't love each other anymore but because of the circumstances (he seems to be falling out of love with her lately) .

I think someone said in the comics that Clark before he becomes superman travels the world. That is what I believe what this clark really needs to do, to travel the world and realize how f'd up the world really is.....and he will realize that he can make a difference and will try to make a difference. Right now though, all the bad things that happen in smallville he doesnt believe its the worlds fault its happening cuz they are bad..

He believes all those bad things that have happened on the show are his fault because he is an alien and all those people come for him, if he was never sent to earth he believes things would be better for the planet. He came to earth and the meteor shower blew everything up and all these meteor freaks, aliens trying to take over the world all started to happen when he came to the planet.

As of this season I see him trying to become a hero for the planet...he is taking baby steps to become a great man, lets forget about him becoming superman, its all about him becoming a great man that motivates people to better themselves. He is a good guy but he isn't great yet. I do believe he is getting there

I know people want to see him make the right choices , always say the right thing, set a good example for everyone around him. Hell i expect that from myself too but i fail miserably all the time XD. The things he does aren't as bad as people make it out to be, its just that we know he can do so much better that bothers us, we know he can be great..

Look at it this way, we are his parents and clark is our son....parents are always more critical of their children then anyone else because they believe their children can do anything

[HalJordan4184]

How old is clark ? 20? 21? LOL I don't even know if clark can drink legally yet. Lana and everyone around clark have one way or another told him that he is meant for greater things but it isn't their place to push and push him in that direction....The choice is his alone. Smallville has more detail in that process of him becoming superman, in the comics he just is that way automatically there is no process, its more like one day he wakes up and decides "hey i'll go save the world now"...

In smallville it's true that he doesn't go out into the world and try to save the day. I take that as him still being naive, he not thinking the world needs someone like him. He only knows of those around him and that's where his focus is because he hasn't seen more of the world, he has only been in smallville where everyone is basically nice and friendly with the occasional "meteor freak".

The truth is we don't even know how many people he has really saved because they don't show him saving people on the tv show, they just show stuff important to the story. He is already the type of person who is willing to give his life to save the billions of lives on earth, if his death meant the safety of the earth he would do it. He is in love cut him some slack, it's his first love and that is always the hardest to get over especially if they never break up because they don't love each other anymore but because of the circumstances (he seems to be falling out of love with her lately) .

I think someone said in the comics that Clark before he becomes superman travels the world. That is what I believe what this clark really needs to do, to travel the world and realize how f'd up the world really is.....and he will realize that he can make a difference and will try to make a difference. Right now though, all the bad things that happen in smallville he doesnt believe its the worlds fault its happening cuz they are bad..

He believes all those bad things that have happened on the show are his fault because he is an alien and all those people come for him, if he was never sent to earth he believes things would be better for the planet. He came to earth and the meteor shower blew everything up and all these meteor freaks, aliens trying to take over the world all started to happen when he came to the planet.

As of this season I see him trying to become a hero for the planet...he is taking baby steps to become a great man, lets forget about him becoming superman, its all about him becoming a great man that motivates people to better themselves. He is a good guy but he isn't great yet. I do believe he is getting there

I know people want to see him make the right choices , always say the right thing, set a good example for everyone around him. Hell i expect that from myself too but i fail miserably all the time XD. The things he does aren't as bad as people make it out to be, its just that we know he can do so much better that bothers us, we know he can be great..

Look at it this way, we are his parents and clark is our son....parents are always more critical of their children then anyone else because they believe their children can do anything


Smallville in no way, shape, or form, adds more detail to Clark Kent's story. The comics have done vastly more workw ith teenage Clark Kent's years. It was never a matter of, he just wakes up one day, sews a costume, and that's it, he's Superman.

CLark Kent's world travels are not about him learning there is a world that needs help. They are about him learning the best way he can help the world. Clark wanted to know as much about the planet Earth as he could, and all of it's people. Especially in todays day and age, there is no way Clark doesn't realize all of the problems that are affecting the world, and how bad it really is in places. I could flip on the TV, and find five major world crises in as many minutes. Clark doesn't live in a cave, with no access to the world.

Most of the bad things that have happened, have been his fault. His own inactions, led to the release of the phantom zoners, and led to the second meteor shower, and led to Brainiac's arrival, and on and on. The producers even flat out said once, there goal was to make Clark Kent a screw up, so we'd see why he decides to help people. Only that completely changes the motivation of CLark Kent as a character, to want to even be who he is.

[ox007]

This episode was horrible. I can't exactly remember when I was so dissatisfied with a SV episode. I don't like Clark's behaviour as well. I agree with all posts that criticize Clark's doings and his character development. And I don't like that he doesn't use his abilities other than superspeed and superstrength. What ever happend to his X-Ray, heatvision, superhearing and sneeze? He used his sneeze twice or maybe 3 times on this show and what? Besides Kara doesn't fit in the show. She does more job than CK, has more powers than CK, and even teaches CK to fly? Superman was the original teacher of Kara! Kara overshadows Clark with almost everything and that's not supposed to be happening. Not to mention that Clark didn't even try to fly in this epi. Oh and I'm tired that he's only interested in Lana.

Oh and a question. Doesn't Clark need a proper education to become a reporter in the future? I doubt he could become one without proper education and it is high time he started one instead of being stuck on farm with Lana. This show has become so strange. I loved the first 3 seasons and the 4th a little bit but from season 5 - no comment. But season 7 is the worst! Esp. after this epi!

[Martin le Magicien]

I wish people would stop using the word destiny. It's no more his destiny to be Superman than it's mine to be a student... still yet... But I digress :D

Clark is a guy that likes to help, and he has the chance to have more tools in his hands to do so. One day, he just help Ben Hubbard fixing his roof, the next, he stops a roof from falling over 36 orphans. The only difference is the scale to which he can help people. But that's what he is and always will be, a helping dude. Not because of his destiny, but because he wants too. The way Smallville portrays it, he doesn't do it out of desire, but out of guilt or necessity.

And how can SmallvilleClark help people ? He doesn't even help himself.

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----




Oh and a question. Doesn't Clark need a proper education to become a reporter in the future?


No, not really, just look at Lois. Really, it just show you how stupid this show can be.

[Cogito17]

Ok, I'm gonna try and make this my last post because I don't wanna get in a long debate anymore than I already have (Plus, I'm afraid I will read a topic title from the Canadian forum on 'Descent' that gives something away, so trying to stay away from K-site). :)

Any arguments presented without specific evidence pretty much boil down to a "Yes he is" vs. "No he isn't" debate. So, I'm gonna try and highlight my point with an example or two.

Clark seems to get the same kind of treatment as Lana. If, next episode, Lana saved a group of nuns from a burning bus, then ran over and saved a newborn kitten from a tree, people would still find a way to put a negative twist on it. Clark sort of gets similar treatment, for example, this episode, he was accused of being an idiot for leaving Lana in the hospital (Which I think is unfair).

Other examples include the idea that Clark is responsible for the Phantom zoners and only cleans up his own mess. What was he supposed to do? Sit in the Phantom zone and allow Zod to destroy the earth? No, he chose instead to fight both Zod and the zoners to save the world. Some people see this as evidence of him being un-Supermanlike, I see it as evidence of the opposite.

Or, the idea that Clark is completely apathetic to anything other than what goes on around him. But, thats ignoring times when he went to Honduras, and to Seattle (Is that right? The episode in season 6 where he first encountered MM). Also, simply from a practical sense in the show, they can't constantly be traveling all over the world to shoot. Besides, don't most of the Superman stories take place in Metropolis? Why then, are most of the Smallville stories not allowed to center around Metropolis/Smallville as well?

The point that I am trying to make is that there are two sides to most any accusation of wrongdoing on Clark's part. But, on this site it seems that there is a tendency to interpret things with a negative or bottomline mentality. Blanket statements such as "Clark is lazy" or "Clark doesn't care about anything except Lana" come about as a result of repeated negative interpretations of Clark's actions and boil down to a "Yes he is" vs. "No he isn't" without specific examples. I can't and won't refute every example of Clark's questionable behavior, but it seems like people put a negative spin on things in any way they can, which is inaccurate and unfair and blind to other more positive interpretations. I don't think its fair to ignore either side, but the negative side seems vastly overrepresented, with the positive side vastly underrepresented.

[Theshadow129x]

I wish people would stop using the word destiny. It's no more his destiny to be Superman than it's mine to be a student... still yet... But I digress :D

Clark is a guy that likes to help, and he has the chance to have more tools in his hands to do so. One day, he just help Ben Hubbard fixing his roof, the next, he stops a roof from falling over 36 orphans. The only difference is the scale to which he can help people. But that's what he is and always will be, a helping dude. Not because of his destiny, but because he wants too. The way Smallville portrays it, he doesn't do it out of desire, but out of guilt or necessity.

And how can SmallvilleClark help people ? He doesn't even help himself.
.

I'm going to agree with you about the destiny thing. I hate that the show incorporated destiny into it. That there was a prophecy of his coming and the death of the planet because other kryptonians came and told everyone what was gonig to happen. Whatever! The use of the word destiny on the show makes it seem as though he had no choice in his journey to superman and that just isnt the case at all. He has to be pushed in to it because he doesnt know any better and hes being guilted into being superman. I hate that and its not very heroic in my opinion to be guilted into a role you dont even want. especially for this clark to become superman

[All about Clark]

Posters are also very hard on Clark for what he doesn't do. He doesn't help Green Arrow and gang, he doesn't go out on his own and stop crime. Well for me these things are for when he's dealt with all the crap he's got on his plate right now. Clark has had this destiny over him, that really makes him want to feel like he wants to satisfy his own needs first, which is understandable. Clark also wants his life to be as normal as possible, so that people don't question him, like Lex. It is alot easier for Clark to fight zoners and save the world if he can come home and act all normal, it's his cover and he wants to protect it. There's no disquise yet, so he wants the overall look of normalcy.

For right now I'm satisfied that Clark spends his efforts on reconciling many things, such as his trust for Jor-el, his destiny feeling too big, a destiny that requires him to be something big whereas he's always tried to be invisible, wanting to satisfy his needs as well as the world's, and accepting not only who he is, but feeling like he belongs on Earth, deserving to be alive. And I really think that's why TPTB have had Clark so stagnate lately because they want us to see Clark's struggling to reconcile all of this before taking on this destiny. And this is alot for a 20-year old.

[Hopefulsuicide]

Clark seems to get the same kind of treatment as Lana. If, next episode, Lana saved a group of nuns from a burning bus, then ran over and saved a newborn kitten from a tree, people would still find a way to put a negative twist on it. Clark sort of gets similar treatment, for example, this episode, he was accused of being an idiot for leaving Lana in the hospital (Which I think is unfair).

haven't heard this arguement myself. i don't really get it tbh. i mean we didn't see him walk away (did we?) :lol: and even if he did, she needed proper care :confused:

----- Added 4 Minutes later -----



Other examples include the idea that Clark is responsible for the Phantom zoners and only cleans up his own mess. What was he supposed to do? Sit in the Phantom zone and allow Zod to destroy the earth? No, he chose instead to fight both Zod and the zoners to save the world. Some people see this as evidence of him being un-Supermanlike, I see it as evidence of the opposite.

well it's not just the fans that think he is cleaning up his own messes. Clark does!... he says so, about a lot of things, including the zoners. and even if it isn't always truly his fault, if he is only doing it out of guilt, then he's not doing it for enough reasons to make him appear supermanly and Oliver said in Justice that Clark just waits for things to land in his lap. this isn't some wacky judgement from the fans of Smallville, this is something present in the very text of the show!

and tbh, isn't it his fault he was in the phantom zone in the first place, which is why he blames himself?

----- Added 14 Minutes later -----



Or, the idea that Clark is completely apathetic to anything other than what goes on around him. But, thats ignoring times when he went to Honduras, and to Seattle (Is that right? The episode in season 6 where he first encountered MM). Also, simply from a practical sense in the show, they can't constantly be traveling all over the world to shoot. Besides, don't most of the Superman stories take place in Metropolis? Why then, are most of the Smallville stories not allowed to center around Metropolis/Smallville as well?.

wow, he strayed out of his comfort zone twice? thats one plus one times... thats a lot... :p (sometimes sarcasm is a guilty pleasure)

anyway, i think Clark is apathetic to anything outside of his awareness, but i wasn't talking about him needing to do things all over the world, i just meant he needs to branch outside of his friendship group when it comes to helping people.

i'm going to step on some toes when i say this probably, and i know that Smallville could never have even thought of doing an episode with it in anyway, but how would Clark have felt if he saw the breaking news of the twin towers being smashed in to?

the Clark Kent i know would have seen it and he wouldn't be able to stop himself from helping, no matter what was going on. he could help, he knew he could help, he could save thousands of lives.

the Clark Kent of Smallville would have sat and watched. he would have wanted to help but he would have been too scared of revealing his secret.

i remember loving Chris Reeve's line in Superman 2, when he is mortal and sees the news about zod for the first time, and he says he has to go back... the emphasis on 'have' to was just brilliant. he didn't have a choice. who he is, his instincts, his need to do good is so powerful that he doesn't have a choice. he couldn't possibly be anything but a hero because he can't tune it out, he can't pretend he doesn't know what is happening in the world and everything he could be doing to stop it.

Smallville's Clark only deals with HIS problems, he doesn't deal with anyone elses. This makes him less than a hero.

----- Added 15 Minutes later -----




The point that I am trying to make is that there are two sides to most any accusation of wrongdoing on Clark's part. But, on this site it seems that there is a tendency to interpret things with a negative or bottomline mentality. Blanket statements such as "Clark is lazy" or "Clark doesn't care about anything except Lana" come about as a result of repeated negative interpretations of Clark's actions and boil down to a "Yes he is" vs. "No he isn't" without specific examples. I can't and won't refute every example of Clark's questionable behavior, but it seems like people put a negative spin on things in any way they can, which is inaccurate and unfair and blind to other more positive interpretations. I don't think its fair to ignore either side, but the negative side seems vastly overrepresented, with the positive side vastly underrepresented.

i can understand what your saying. after a while of having an opinion it can be hard to see anything but that. but that original opinion could not have gotten so strong without a foundation of reasons

----- Added 17 Minutes later -----


Posters are also very hard on Clark for what he doesn't do. He doesn't help Green Arrow and gang, he doesn't go out on his own and stop crime. Well for me these things are for when he's dealt with all the crap he's got on his plate right now. Clark has had this destiny over him, that really makes him want to feel like he wants to satisfy his own needs first, which is understandable. Clark also wants his life to be as normal as possible, so that people don't question him, like Lex. It is alot easier for Clark to fight zoners and save the world if he can come home and act all normal, it's his cover and he wants to protect it. There's no disquise yet, so he wants the overall look of normalcy.

For right now I'm satisfied that Clark spends his efforts on reconciling many things, such as his trust for Jor-el, his destiny feeling too big, a destiny that requires him to be something big whereas he's always tried to be invisible, wanting to satisfy his needs as well as the world's, and accepting not only who he is, but feeling like he belongs on Earth, deserving to be alive. And I really think that's why TPTB have had Clark so stagnate lately because they want us to see Clark's struggling to reconcile all of this before taking on this destiny. And this is alot for a 20-year old.

but he doesnt look normal, he looks like hes hiding away on a barn! if anything it looks like he is afraid of something or trying to be invisible. and i'm 20, and i'm doing better than Clark. Clark acts like a lot of my friends and they have depression.

p.s. i am going to ignore any arguement made about 'destiny' from now on, as it is seriously winding me up... i mean there is only so many time i can repeat 'it shouldnt be about destiny' and have it ignored before i have to rip out my hair and let my brain dibble out my ears

[Kevin24]

Smallville in no way, shape, or form, adds more detail to Clark Kent's story. The comics have done vastly more workw ith teenage Clark Kent's years. It was never a matter of, he just wakes up one day, sews a costume, and that's it, he's Superman.

CLark Kent's world travels are not about him learning there is a world that needs help. They are about him learning the best way he can help the world. Clark wanted to know as much about the planet Earth as he could, and all of it's people. Especially in todays day and age, there is no way Clark doesn't realize all of the problems that are affecting the world, and how bad it really is in places. I could flip on the TV, and find five major world crises in as many minutes. Clark doesn't live in a cave, with no access to the world.

Most of the bad things that have happened, have been his fault. His own inactions, led to the release of the phantom zoners, and led to the second meteor shower, and led to Brainiac's arrival, and on and on. The producers even flat out said once, there goal was to make Clark Kent a screw up, so we'd see why he decides to help people. Only that completely changes the motivation of CLark Kent as a character, to want to even be who he is.

I get your point on why you are disappointed and I can understand that and I probably would feel the same if i actually read the comics I really don't know. Tho what I can say is alot of people over exaggerate about clark, he isn't half as bad as people claim he is.


The thing is the stones in my opinion had nothing to do with the second meteor shower, nothing to do it with it, that was happening long before we knew about the stones. You really think just because he didn't get the stones back in time all of a sudden a ship comes? what was it doing this whole time? just sitting in space?

The way I see it is that Jor-el wanted him to get those stones so he can make the FOS and do his training with Jor-el so when the ship comes he would be better prepared for a fight against them. I honestly think it was inevitable that they were coming and the meteors.

With the Zoners, he didn't mean to release them at all. They kinda just got sucked in when he was escaping to fight zod. He got them all tho, it was on list way at that top of things to do.

Also I think Clark does alot for the world they just don't show him doing it. A good example is combat when Martha reads the newspaper about all the criminals being on the door steps of the police station. Another example is in arrow when Chloe says that the green arrow has joined Clark in being a hero, so I'm pretty postive he does alot but he does it low key. Maybe not the world yet, but at least around smallville and metropolis. Also throughout the series they always say that his name almost always appears at crime scenes(police reports)....that must mean he runs around trying to help people.

We just see what is important to the story of the episode we are in. So I'm sure Clark has run off on them plenty more times then we have seen to save someone or stop someone. We only see Oliver ditch Lois three times the whole time he is there...if it was only three times then I don't think lois would have had that much of a problem with it but I'm sure he ran off often to save someone but they just don't show it, the same with Clark.

Clark just does everything on the downlow, because he doesn't want to be discovered.

P.S. waiting till 8pm pacfic time for descent sucks :(

----- Added 13 Minutes later -----

----- Added 15 Minutes later -----


haven't heard this arguement myself. i don't really get it tbh. i mean we didn't see him walk away (did we?) :lol: and even if he did, she needed proper care :confused:

----- Added 4 Minutes later -----



well it's not just the fans that think he is cleaning up his own messes. Clark does!... he says so, about a lot of things, including the zoners. and even if it isn't always truly his fault, if he is only doing it out of guilt, then he's not doing it for enough reasons to make him appear supermanly and Oliver said in Justice that Clark just waits for things to land in his lap. this isn't some wacky judgement from the fans of Smallville, this is something present in the very text of the show!

and tbh, isn't it his fault he was in the phantom zone in the first place, which is why he blames himself?

----- Added 14 Minutes later -----



wow, he strayed out of his comfort zone twice? thats one plus one times... thats a lot... :p (sometimes sarcasm is a guilty pleasure)

anyway, i think Clark is apathetic to anything outside of his awareness, but i wasn't talking about him needing to do things all over the world, i just meant he needs to branch outside of his friendship group when it comes to helping people.

i'm going to step on some toes when i say this probably, and i know that Smallville could never have even thought of doing an episode with it in anyway, but how would Clark have felt if he saw the breaking news of the twin towers being smashed in to?

the Clark Kent i know would have seen it and he wouldn't be able to stop himself from helping, no matter what was going on. he could help, he knew he could help, he could save thousands of lives.

the Clark Kent of Smallville would have sat and watched. he would have wanted to help but he would have been too scared of revealing his secret.

i remember loving Chris Reeve's line in Superman 2, when he is mortal and sees the news about zod for the first time, and he says he has to go back... the emphasis on 'have' to was just brilliant. he didn't have a choice. who he is, his instincts, his need to do good is so powerful that he doesn't have a choice. he couldn't possibly be anything but a hero because he can't tune it out, he can't pretend he doesn't know what is happening in the world and everything he could be doing to stop it.

Smallville's Clark only deals with HIS problems, he doesn't deal with anyone elses. This makes him less than a hero.

----- Added 15 Minutes later -----



i can understand what your saying. after a while of having an opinion it can be hard to see anything but that. but that original opinion could not have gotten so strong without a foundation of reasons

----- Added 17 Minutes later -----



but he doesnt look normal, he looks like hes hiding away on a barn! if anything it looks like he is afraid of something or trying to be invisible. and i'm 20, and i'm doing better than Clark. Clark acts like a lot of my friends and they have depression.

p.s. i am going to ignore any arguement made about 'destiny' from now on, as it is seriously winding me up... i mean there is only so many time i can repeat 'it shouldnt be about destiny' and have it ignored before i have to rip out my hair and let my brain dibble out my ears


Umm, I see you are trying to make a point but if you really believe that then you just don't see the good in Clark at all. You just see one side of him the bad (which isn't really that bad)

Do you remember the episode when he said maybe he should give himself up because he realized he might be the cure to the world diseases?

[All about Clark]

i remember loving Chris Reeve's line in Superman 2, when he is mortal and sees the news about zod for the first time, and he says he has to go back... the emphasis on 'have' to was just brilliant. he didn't have a choice. who he is, his instincts, his need to do good is so powerful that he doesn't have a choice. he couldn't possibly be anything but a hero because he can't tune it out, he can't pretend he doesn't know what is happening in the world and everything he could be doing to stop it.

Smallville's Clark only deals with HIS problems, he doesn't deal with anyone elses. This makes him less than a hero.

I don't agree with this at all. Chris Reeve's character needed to fight an alien. SV Clark would never leave an alien threat and ignore it, no way. Your example is poor. Clark definitely would step in on any threat that was beyond what humans could handle IMO.

[B]
but he doesnt look normal, he looks like hes hiding away on a barn! if anything it looks like he is afraid of something or trying to be invisible. and i'm 20, and i'm doing better than Clark. Clark acts like a lot of my friends and they have depression.
[/QUOTE]

Invisible, is exactly what I said. And he only looks like he's hiding to us because we know his secret, to the rest of the world, he looks normal.

----- Added 15 Minutes later -----



The way I see it is that Jor-el wanted him to get those stones so he can make the FOS and do his training with Jor-el so when the ship comes he would be better prepared for a fight against them. I honestly think it was inevitable that they were coming and the meteors.

Actually it was the human blood on the stone that released the ship from it's cacoon. Jor-el told Clark this after the fact.

Personally, I don't hold to much against Clark not gathering the stones. He clearly felt they had nothing to do with him. Yes he was wrong, but I can't fault him for his belief. Because his belief doesn't make him bad. And it was never clearly explained to him why the stones were for him. (TPTB - Bad story telling to get Clark to mess up)

Your comment about Clark, he was willing to give up his life if it could cure world diseases. That is the ultimate gift, and no one should look bad on him after he was willing to do this. I can't amagine anyone on this site who would be willing to do that.

[Cogito17]

wow, he strayed out of his comfort zone twice? thats one plus one times... thats a lot... :p (sometimes sarcasm is a guilty pleasure)

anyway, i think Clark is apathetic to anything outside of his awareness, but i wasn't talking about him needing to do things all over the world, i just meant he needs to branch outside of his friendship group when it comes to helping people.

i'm going to step on some toes when i say this probably, and i know that Smallville could never have even thought of doing an episode with it in anyway, but how would Clark have felt if he saw the breaking news of the twin towers being smashed in to?

the Clark Kent i know would have seen it and he wouldn't be able to stop himself from helping, no matter what was going on. he could help, he knew he could help, he could save thousands of lives.

the Clark Kent of Smallville would have sat and watched. he would have wanted to help but he would have been too scared of revealing his secret.

i remember loving Chris Reeve's line in Superman 2, when he is mortal and sees the news about zod for the first time, and he says he has to go back... the emphasis on 'have' to was just brilliant. he didn't have a choice. who he is, his instincts, his need to do good is so powerful that he doesn't have a choice. he couldn't possibly be anything but a hero because he can't tune it out, he can't pretend he doesn't know what is happening in the world and everything he could be doing to stop it.

Smallville's Clark only deals with HIS problems, he doesn't deal with anyone elses. This makes him less than a hero.


Well, my point still stands about most stories in Superman happening in Metropolis, similar to most stories in Smallville happening in Smallville. (Though, that goes more towards the literal interpretation of him branching out from an actual physical area, which is not the point you are trying to make)

As for the Clark and twin towers example, I have to disagree. Have we ever seen Clark ignore a threat when he knew exactly where it was and how to deal with it? In all the cases with Brainiac/Zoners, half the problem was that he didn't know where they were, or how to find them. However, in the case I highlighted earlier where he goes to Seattle (or wherever he was, the place where he first met MM), he was branching far outside his network/those close to him to help others. Same with Brainiac being in Honduras.

Now, these are only 2 examples (as you pointed out), but as I said, within the confines of writing/scripting a show with limited resources, there is only so much branching out they can probably do. Because of this, the show is scripted to have most of the threats revolve around Clark's friendship network/location. The real question is, has Clark ever turned his back on an immediate threat that was outside of his network? You could say the 33.1/Justice League thing, but he was dealing with Phantom zoners at the time (A more serious and immediate threat imo). I think the real issue is simply that the show doesn't really present many threats outside of Clark's network for him to deal with. In which case I have to use the cliche, "the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence". They don't frequently show him outside of his network/area, but that doesn't mean he would not help if presented with the situation, and in the rare occasions where he has been presented with such a situation, he seemed willing to move outside his network/location.

Edit:
Also, in response to it being his fault he was in the Phantom Zone, you can't really blame him. He was banished there by Zod. Now, he coulda fought and defeated Zod right then and there when he first showed up in the barn, but I can't blame him for having a little trouble against a Kryptonian General.

[HalJordan4184]

If my giving my life would cure all world diseases, I'd do it in a second.

Clark didn't mean it though. He doesn't do hardly anything on a REGULAR basis to qualify it as how he lives. Other characters point out that Clark does next to nothing compared to everyone else.

Clark uis responsible for the second meteor shower and the black ship. A personal feeling that you don't blame him, does not negate he did absolutely nothing when told of the problem, and told the consequences would be dire. It does nothing to alleviate, he was willing to trade an innocent human life, just to bring Lana back after a car accident. CLark hasn't made one innocent mistake, and that's the only blemish on his record. Clark's record is worse than some career criminals out there, but supposedly, he's supposed to represent the best of us.

----- Added 3 Minutes later -----

Clark going to Seattle was not a case of him reaching out to others outside of his circle of close friends. He went to Seattle to deal with a problem, HE HIMSELF helped bring about. He was intimately connected with it. He didn't go to Seattle to stop a serial killer from destroying that city. He went to catch a Phantom Zone escapee, that he let out, because he got sent to the Phantom Zone, because he didn't listen for the umpteenth million time.

If Clark had gone there to help stop a serial killer that was completely unrelated to him, or there was some kind of super threat that popped up, that he didn't previosuly know about, your argument would work flawlessly. However, it fails, because wasn't helping his close friends out, he was helping HIMSELF out of a bind, that he PUT the whole world in to begin with.

[All about Clark]

The only times there has been news about an event, it was about dark Thursday. And Clark did work on that at night. Yes it was his mess, but the show has not given us any event where Clark was idle and refused to help.

Chloe had even referred to Clark pulling people out of burning buildings the same day he died and saved Smallville from the missile. It show's he's active even though they don't care to show all he's done. And with comments like this one from Chloe and newspaper articles showing Clark ruffing up bad guys while being pissed with Lana's marriage (Combat), there is no doubt in my mind he's helping on the (sly) side.

----- Added 6 Minutes later -----


Clark didn't mean it though. He doesn't do hardly anything on a REGULAR basis to qualify it as how he lives. Other characters point out that Clark does next to nothing compared to everyone else.

WOW, this is bullsh!t. Clark was not joking when he said that, he was 100% serious. It really bothers me that you would say that. It means you don't want to take people for their words, very disappointing that you can't judge a show by what you are viewing.

[B]
Clark uis responsible for the second meteor shower and the black ship. A personal feeling that you don't blame him, does not negate he did absolutely nothing when told of the problem, and told the consequences would be dire. It does nothing to alleviate, he was willing to trade an innocent human life, just to bring Lana back after a car accident. CLark hasn't made one innocent mistake, and that's the only blemish on his record. Clark's record is worse than some career criminals out there, but supposedly, he's supposed to represent the best of us.[/QUOTE]

Clark clearly stated he didn't think the stones were about him. Another case where you don't want to believe the words that are being spoken. Clark's judgement regarding the stones were wrong, but there was no ill intent.

[Hopefulsuicide]

The only times there has been news about an event, it was about dark Thursday. And Clark did work on that at night. Yes it was his mess, but the show has not given us any event where Clark was idle and refused to help.

Chloe had even referred to Clark pulling people out of burning buildings the same day he died and saved Smallville from the missile. It show's he's active even though they don't care to show all he's done. And with comments like this one from Chloe and newspaper articles showing Clark ruffing up bad guys while being pissed with Lana's marriage (Combat), there is no doubt in my mind he's helping on the (sly) side.

----- Added 6 Minutes later -----



WOW, this is bullsh!t. Clark was not joking when he said that, he was 100% serious. It really bothers me that you would say that. It means you don't want to take people for their words, very disappointing that you can't judge a show by what you are viewing.


.

no one said it was a joke, just that he hadn't thought it through enough to be serious about it... if he was serious about it, why hasn't he done it?

as for no events happening... thats BS

there are natural disasters happening all the time! big events, people dying, people kidnapped etc etc... just cause there is no news shown on Smallville doesnt mean in Smallville the world is hunky dory and there is nothing for Superman to do

[HalJordan4184]

The only times there has been news about an event, it was about dark Thursday. And Clark did work on that at night. Yes it was his mess, but the show has not given us any event where Clark was idle and refused to help.

Chloe had even referred to Clark pulling people out of burning buildings the same day he died and saved Smallville from the missile. It show's he's active even though they don't care to show all he's done. And with comments like this one from Chloe and newspaper articles showing Clark ruffing up bad guys while being pissed with Lana's marriage (Combat), there is no doubt in my mind he's helping on the (sly) side.

----- Added 6 Minutes later -----



WOW, this is bullsh!t. Clark was not joking when he said that, he was 100% serious. It really bothers me that you would say that. It means you don't want to take people for their words, very disappointing that you can't judge a show by what you are viewing.

[B]
Clark uis responsible for the second meteor shower and the black ship. A personal feeling that you don't blame him, does not negate he did absolutely nothing when told of the problem, and told the consequences would be dire. It does nothing to alleviate, he was willing to trade an innocent human life, just to bring Lana back after a car accident. CLark hasn't made one innocent mistake, and that's the only blemish on his record. Clark's record is worse than some career criminals out there, but supposedly, he's supposed to represent the best of us.

Clark clearly stated he didn't think the stones were about him. Another case where you don't want to believe the words that are being spoken. Clark's judgement regarding the stones were wrong, but there was no ill intent.[/QUOTE]


So because Clark didn't listen, when told of the stones, and when told he had to get them or the consequences would be dire, and when told that human hands could not get ahold of them or consequences would again be dire, it isn't his fault?

Clark ignored direct warnings, signs, and revelations presented to him, so he could not have to deal with something, that was, in all actuality, HIS PROBLEM. Yes his judgement was wrong. That's the whole freaking point. It's been wrong for the last five seasons, and has been a stated point by the former producers, that CLark is a major screw up, and is meant to be portrayed that way.

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----

and it isn't i don't take poeple at their word. I don't take people at their word, who take back their word, ignore their responsibilities, and the problems around them they can help, and who regularaly try to shirk their problems off on others, only to cause bigger ones. Clark on Smallville doesn't deserve to be taken at his word, because quite frankly, Clark ends up making most situations far worse, before they ever get better.

[All about Clark]

no one said it was a joke, just that he hadn't thought it through enough to be serious about it... if he was serious about it, why hasn't he done it?

Clark was thinking it through by asking his parents if he could do that. And Clark listened to Jonathan telling him he was here for something more important. That's why there was no action to take.

[B]
as for no events happening... thats BS [/QUOTE]

No actually that's Smallville, because the biggest paper around "The Daily Planet" hasn't shown any other event. And Chloe always talks to Clark about the events in the paper.

----- Added 5 Minutes later -----


Clark ignored direct warnings, signs, and revelations presented to him, so he could not have to deal with something, that was, in all actuality, HIS PROBLEM. Yes his judgement was wrong. That's the whole freaking point. It's been wrong for the last five seasons, and has been a stated point by the former producers, that CLark is a major screw up, and is meant to be portrayed that way.

Clark didn't believe the stones were for him. As I said, no ill intent. That doesn't mean he was not mistaken. He did not trust Jor-el, it was understandable, and he's tried to make things right. It wasn't about Clark being lazy or ignoring it. Or it's not my problem. When Jor-el gives Clark orders without information it is understandable and he is still screwing up, but that doesn't mean he didn't have the right intention, is what I'm saying.

And by the way, being that you only see what you want to percieve, I have a real hard time even wanting to respond to your posts. You've got negative eye to SV Clark and apparently nothing he does will work for you.

[Cogito17]

If my giving my life would cure all world diseases, I'd do it in a second.

Clark didn't mean it though. He doesn't do hardly anything on a REGULAR basis to qualify it as how he lives. Other characters point out that Clark does next to nothing compared to everyone else.

Clark uis responsible for the second meteor shower and the black ship. A personal feeling that you don't blame him, does not negate he did absolutely nothing when told of the problem, and told the consequences would be dire. It does nothing to alleviate, he was willing to trade an innocent human life, just to bring Lana back after a car accident. CLark hasn't made one innocent mistake, and that's the only blemish on his record. Clark's record is worse than some career criminals out there, but supposedly, he's supposed to represent the best of us.

----- Added 3 Minutes later -----

Clark going to Seattle was not a case of him reaching out to others outside of his circle of close friends. He went to Seattle to deal with a problem, HE HIMSELF helped bring about. He was intimately connected with it. He didn't go to Seattle to stop a serial killer from destroying that city. He went to catch a Phantom Zone escapee, that he let out, because he got sent to the Phantom Zone, because he didn't listen for the umpteenth million time.

If Clark had gone there to help stop a serial killer that was completely unrelated to him, or there was some kind of super threat that popped up, that he didn't previosuly know about, your argument would work flawlessly. However, it fails, because wasn't helping his close friends out, he was helping HIMSELF out of a bind, that he PUT the whole world in to begin with.

I bolded and underlined the contradiction in your argument. If he was, as you have pointed out, sent to the Phantom Zone, then he was not there of his own free will. He was forced there, and the only way to escape was along with the Phantoms.

Also, I said that "I feel" as a polite way of saying that its illogical. Furthermore, we are simply expressing opinions here, choosing to present your opinion as fact does not make it any more valid than me presenting mine as what it is: an opinion.

Anyways, allow me to make my point by way of analogy. If you open a window, and a poisonous spider comes through the window, and ends up biting someone, is it your fault for opening the window when you had no forewarning that a poisonous spider would come through? It is illogical to blame the person opening the window (or in this case, Clark for allowing the zoners to escape). Not to mention the fact that in the case of Clark (Escaping the Phantom zone) was necessary to save the world from Zod.

This is the kind of attitude I find objectionable, because it interprets things in about the most negative light possible in terms of Clark. It is a bottom line interpretation ignoring many other aspects of the story which absolve Clark of much of the guilt.

[Hopefulsuicide]

Clark was thinking it through by asking his parents if he could do that. And Clark listened to Jonathan telling him he was here for something more important. That's why there was no action to take.

[B]
as for no events happening... thats BS

No actually that's Smallville, because the biggest paper around "The Daily Planet" hasn't shown any other event. And Chloe always talks to Clark about the events in the paper.[/QUOTE]

i understand that, but that's BS... what kind of backwards world is Smallville? it is either going on but not talked about (but still can be discussed within this thread) or none of the disasters i mentioned have happened in the last 7 years (not that i think Clark should have been trying to stop them in the beginning as he was still very young)

as for Clark taking no action because he listened to Jonathon, sorry but i just don't accept this. i never believed he would actually do it. he wouldn't. in fairness, no logical person would because he would be locked up forever and if he fell into the wrong hands his blood would be used to evil etc etc... i don't think he should have followed through, i just don't think its a good example of why he is Supermanly

When he stopped the rocket, that was supermanly. When he shielded the boy in the blast in Commencement, he was supermanly. When he gave Alicia a second chance, when he jumped into the luthorcorp building in 'insurgance', when he caught the elevator in Mercy... all these things were in the spirit of Superman, and i'm sure i could think of thousands more examples.

i don't think Smallville's Clark has always been a complete lack of Superman. i just think recently he has been less superman than ever (look at thread title) and this bothers me because he should be moving forwards not backwards

----- Added 3 Minutes later -----


I bolded and underlined the contradiction in your argument. If he was, as you have pointed out, sent to the Phantom Zone, then he was not there of his own free will. He was forced there, and the only way to escape was along with the Phantoms.

Also, I said that "I feel" as a polite way of saying that its illogical. Furthermore, we are simply expressing opinions here, choosing to present your opinion as fact does not make it any more valid than me presenting mine as what it is: an opinion.

Anyways, allow me to make my point by way of analogy. If you open a window, and a poisonous spider comes through the window, and ends up biting someone, is it your fault for opening the window when you had no forewarning that a poisonous spider would come through? It is illogical to blame the person opening the window (or in this case, Clark for allowing the zoners to escape). Not to mention the fact that in the case of Clark (Escaping the Phantom zone) was necessary to save the world from Zod.

This is the kind of attitude I find objectionable, because it interprets things in about the most negative light possible in terms of Clark. It is a bottom line interpretation ignoring many other aspects of the story which absolve Clark of much of the guilt.

but it doesnt matter whether or not it WAS his fault, he THINKS it is, and that's why he stops them

not because he wants to or because he hears about them and is compelled to save peoples lives by taking out such a threat but because he feels guilty

[Cogito17]

That may be the case, but there is no proof that he would not have helped regardless of whether he feels responsible. Its unfair to simply assume he wouldn't.

[Kevin24]

Clark has the best intentions they just backfire in his face. I must just view the show differently I really don't watch it to see him become superman if that makes sense?

I guess since I already know the end of the story that he will become superman, the journey he is on to me is just a different back story to how he becomes superman. Kinda like the movie "Titanic" you know how it ends but you are just gonna enjoy the ride till they reach that inevitable end? if that made any sense?

[Hopefulsuicide]

That may be the case, but there is no proof that he would not have helped regardless of whether he feels responsible. Its unfair to simply assume he wouldn't.

well we have had no evidence to suggest he would have. i don't assume anything, but to have a Clark interpretation in which you can't assume he would have helped is new and unsettling

----- Added 4 Minutes later -----


Clark has the best intentions they just backfire in his face. I must just view the show differently I really don't watch it to see him become superman if that makes sense?

I guess since I already know the end of the story that he will become superman, the journey he is on to me is just a different back story to how he becomes superman. Kinda like the movie "Titanic" you know how it ends but you are just gonna enjoy the ride till they reach that inevitable end? if that made any sense?

i totally get that, and i loved Titanic. I also love a lot of stories where you know what the outcome will eventually be

however, what would you do if they did a remake of Titanic and Jack was a sorry for himself, dumb, boring man, who was obsessed with some dull drippy girl, and didn't even save Kate because he was busy drooling over her... you'd be pretty pissed :rotfl:

but seriously, its not that i mind Clark being different, i just don't like some of the differences, because i perceive them as negative qualities i dont think should ever be prominent in the Clark Kent character