Lionel's Ultimate Plan with Clark

[JEWCY]

what do you think it was? do you think he was telling the truth when he sid he was protecting clark?

my only feeling is why would he want to keep the "traveler" for himself when he can't do anything for him while in the kryptonite cage?

[susangail]

Fair disclosure: I don't think Lionel has had evil intentions toward Clark the whole time.

Lionel seemed genuinely shaken during the confrontation with Clark; he seemed really bothered by the idea that he had lost Clark's confidence. By contrast, he lied easily to Chloe and Lana earlier in the episode.

Maybe Lionel feels some level of guilt over what a wacko Lex is becoming. (Clark didn't make Lex what he is; Lionel did.) Maybe Lionel gets his jollies knowing what he knows. Maybe he nurtured the relationship in the hope that Clark would protect him from Lex.

Maybe I'm hopelessly naive ;)

[minerva73]

I think he was telling the truth when he said that. He probably was protecting him from the other villains and possibly trying to protect Clark from himself (being Lionel) as well. I think that Lionel's going through an identity crisis or something because I think that he wants to have Clark for himself like Patricia hinted at, but he's scared of what he's becoming.

[susangail]

Interesting idea. It does seem that Lionel's losing his edge, and I don't think it's JG's acting, which is always fabulous.

[minerva73]

Yeah, like he's being less Magnificent Bastard-ish. It's like he's trying to be an MB, but doesn't want to be as MB-ish as before.

But I agree about JG's acting. It was great in this episode. Everybody's acting was great in the episode IMO...even Laura Vandervoort doing an amnesiac Kara who talks about "walking through portals".

[Radioflyer]

Good points but it also looked a lot like hand caught in the cookie jar. Lionel's answers seemed like someone making up things to support their actions and doing a very poor job of it.

[Nerial]

I think that Lionel loves Clark like a father loves his son, but he's still the MB. Look what he did to Lex in Memoria.

Lionel isn't like the MB from Season 3, however. First, he has Clark's influence change him in Season 4's Transferance, and then he's influenced by Jor-El and Kryptonian knowledge in Season 5.

I think Patricia Swann said it right, that Lionel wanted Clark to himself. In the first three seasons, it was merely for power-hungry reasons, and now it's for much more than that.

Lionel admires Clark, believes Clark will change the world, and wants to be a part of that himself. But, that MB is still in him--not decreased, but merely changed into something else--like an abusive father who wants to control and possess his own children instead of allowing them to lead their own lives.

He lost control of Lex, and knows Lex will bring suffering to the world. He doesn't want to lose control of Clark, and stop being an influence in the Traveler's life. But, in the end, that's exactly what he did.

[jazel]

Lionel will die for Clark, wow how prolific, considering he NEVER cared about his own flesh and blood.:p

[susangail]

I don't doubt that. So will Clark realize, too late, that Lionel really was on his side?

[LexLuv180]

Well the Lionel before was very demented, he believes himself to have changed quite a bit. I think the first time was with the transference, then with Jor-El being in him. But the only way he knows how to accomplish things are sneaky, back handed ways.

[Lostfan588]

As far as Lionel's plans, considering the upcoming death is going to set the path at making Clex at odds and almost all signs throughout the show are heading toward Lex killing his father (as Lionel did to his), if it happens, I definitely think Lionel's death would put Clex at incredible odds, not so much because Clark loves Lionel, but because of how twisted and inconceivable it would be of Lex (from Clark's POV) to kill his own father. It would cement Lex as irredeemable beyond doubt.

Not only that though, in "Traveler" while the MB's dark past and self serving motives have been brought to light again, there is still some good in him that Clark never saw, because he only got out of the cage to late. Lionel demanded the freak-hater not to torture Clark and told the freak hater that Clark is not a danger to the world and to let him free. He was obviously very angry at the man for hurting Clark in the end so looks like he pushed him out the window to me. Despite Lionel's dark past, I think he truly does care about Clark, and if anything ever happened to Clark (he really only wanted to keep him in the cage for the deal but never to have him be harmed/killed) I actually think he would feel horrible. So, I think Lionel will continue to protect Clark's secret from Lex, but if Lex realizes Lionel knows and refuses to tell him, I can def see him killing him.

[MozartRequiem]

Great points, Lostfan588. :)

By the way, I like your avatar!

[Nerial]

^ I believe Lionel cares about Clark, too, and had no intention of seriously hurting him. But, the pathway to hell is lead with those lovely good intentions and all that...

Lionel is demented. He tries not to be, and he recognizes a lot of his MB status and wants to change, but he does it in such a misguided way. He wants to be good, and yet completely selfish at the same time, and it doesn't work.

Kidnapping someone you love and admire, and putting him into a cage made of the one thing that can kill him (not to mention torture him), is just plain sick. It's MB all the way, even if Lionel didn't mean it to go that far.

His feelings are, "the ends justify the means," which are the opposite of what Clark feels, and in this case, Clark's philosophy is dead-on right.

[Vergon6]

It still is kind of iffy why he would need to keep Clark in a cage to protect him. He seems to be making up things as he went along when he talking to Clark, or trying to justify his methods. I guess Lionel in some sense is like Mr. Burns (The Simpsons), even when he is good, he is evil ;) (I am talking at the Little Lisa recycling plant one where Burns is trying to get into the whole recycling thing, but literally recycles animals he traps into 'slurry' for various energy or nutrient needs).

Lionel's actions just go to show that even despite anyone's personal efforts to change, deep down they are still the same person, all you can do is manage your personality quirks. The fact that he wanted to just have Patricia put on a plane back to Europe and have Clark returned discreetly to the farm shows they he is fighting against his nature. But it's curious that he would have Clark returned to Smallville. Was his original plan to keep him there for a while? But when he realized Pierce was a psycho, he decided it was best to cut his losses and have Clark safely returned home?

[kryptonguy]

First off, Jor-El wasn't in Lionel during Transference. He never claimed to have knowledge of the events while he and CLARK were body swapped.

Jor-El possessed Lionel at the end of season 4 in Commencement, when the crystal glowed in his pocket, and he went into a seisure.

As for Lionel's true intentions. I think he planned this whole thing, so he could find and deal with the cryptic message writer. The reason he did not tell Clark, was un-true though. He didn't tell Clark because he didn't want to share him with others.

I think Clark summed it up best when talking to Kara. The Luthors are selfish. Plain and simple. Lionel is just selfish, but since he has obtained his goal, he doesnt have to act like before, with Clark as an "Ace" up his sleeve.

Lex on the other hand is still searching for truths he feels he is entitled to, and will stop at nothing to get them. He even appears to have grown tired of some of the "games".

Look at how he acts with Clark, he doesnt even try defending anything. Just says you are going to think what you want....or whatever it was in "Fracture".

How he dealt with Patricia Swann....talk to her, realized she wasnt going to tell him the truth, so he killed her. Didnt even try to plan any games.

Another thing to notice about Lionel...he has still been cleaning up Lex's messes. There would have been no need to do anything he did in the later part of Season 6 if he just turned Lex in for killing the doctor....instead of covering it up.

Bottom line, selfish.

[Lostfan588]

Great points, Lostfan588. :)

By the way, I like your avatar!


Why, thankyou! I like it too! LOL :p

[susangail]

... there is still some good in him that Clark never saw, because he only got out of the cage to late. Lionel demanded the freak-hater not to torture Clark and told the freak hater that Clark is not a danger to the world and to let him free. He was obviously very angry at the man for hurting Clark in the end so looks like he pushed him out the window to me. Despite Lionel's dark past, I think he truly does care about Clark, and if anything ever happened to Clark (he really only wanted to keep him in the cage for the deal but never to have him be harmed/killed) I actually think he would feel horrible. So, I think Lionel will continue to protect Clark's secret from Lex, but if Lex realizes Lionel knows and refuses to tell him, I can def see him killing him.

So how will Clark feel when Lionel is killed and Clark finds out later (somehow) that Lionel was really trying to support him? What if Lana were the killer? (Though I've always figured Lex would do it...)

[Nerial]

^ I'm not sure what all Lionel's intentions are, but I think you're right, Vergon. Even a good Lionel is still a bad Lionel. :)

How on earth can you protect someone by putting them into a cage made of the only thing that can kill him? I guess the fact that Clark has over half a dozen super-human abilities didn't cross his mind--maybe the Traveler could take care of himself? That was such a lie Lionel tried to pull, and the way JG delivered it was a Luthor desperate to use Clark's idealism and hopefulness against him. It didn't work this time, however, and I'm so pround of Clark for not falling for it!

Lionel is still the MB--just a mutated version of the MB he was in Season 1 to 3.

[LexLuv180]

First off, Jor-El wasn't in Lionel during Transference. He never claimed to have knowledge of the events while he and CLARK were body swapped.

Jor-El possessed Lionel at the end of season 4 in Commencement, when the crystal glowed in his pocket, and he went into a seisure.


Yes, I know. I meant when Clark and Lionel swapped bodies, and at the end he said he felt like a different man.

[minerva73]

So how will Clark feel when Lionel is killed and Clark finds out later (somehow) that Lionel was really trying to support him? What if Lana were the killer? (Though I've always figured Lex would do it...)

Well, Clark probably would feel sad knowing that Lionel died "trying" to help him, but at the same time he'll know that Lionel did do some twisted things to help him. (I don't know if what I just said makes sense, though... :o)

If Lana kills him, I think that it'd be bogus. If Lana won't kill him when she has him locked up in a cabin, then she shouldn't kill him when he's "trying" to help Clark. Even if he is doing it by behaving this way. It was because of Lionel that Lana got shot in "Noir" and if she's not willing to kill him then, then now wouldn't be ideal either IMO.

[Kel-El09]

I don't know..I believe that lionel is trying to help clark, and has his best interests at heart, but I still can't get past what he did in episode promise. I mean..threatening to kill clark if she didn't marry lex. That wasn't protecting Clark...that was using Lana to get inside information that he wanted.

[minerva73]

I agree, but that information would have also prevented Clark from getting into danger if the Phantom attacked him, I guess.

Wow, "Traveler" kept me up until 2:20 AM.... I need to sleep. :\

[Kel-El09]

Ha..it's only 1:20 here. I get another hour to browse around! lol

[Hopefulsuicide]

i dont think he is as good as he had convinced people

he seemed shaken, but too me it was like he was shaken cause he got caught... he had intended to keep clark in the cage so that he could show him to patricia in exchange for the information on his murders, and he did that

then he intended to double cross her and plop clark back

it wasn't too protect Clark at all, he was in no danger... i suppose it plausible that it was at first to protect him, but why not release him as soon as he knew who it was? no he kept him in that cage, risking his life, leaving it in the hands of a mad man, so that he could cover up his dirty past

[GuardianAngel]

I think he was telling the truth when he said that. He probably was protecting him from the other villains and possibly trying to protect Clark from himself (being Lionel) as well. I think that Lionel's going through an identity crisis or something because I think that he wants to have Clark for himself like Patricia hinted at, but he's scared of what he's becoming.

I think you are right. I was shocked by how old and ill he looked at the end of the episode before being confronted by Clark. He reminded me of when he had cancer...
I believe Lionel has been very conflicted since his link with Jor-el broke in "Zod" and is findint it incresingly difficult to do the right thing, especially in the light of how evil Lex is becoming. And I do believe he'd like Clark as a son but then again, he has a very twisted way of doing the right thing.

[Dor el]

I don't know..I believe that lionel is trying to help clark, and has his best interests at heart, but I still can't get past what he did in episode promise. I mean..threatening to kill clark if she didn't marry lex. That wasn't protecting Clark...that was using Lana to get inside information that he wanted.

Looked to me like Lionel was using Clark to get information here as well. Only this time, the information is evidence that could incriminate Lionel. He surely had to know what Dr. Swann had on him. Didn't he and Virgil make some kind of deal regarding Clark/caves/symbols where each man got something in return for what he gave the other guy? This was right before VS died and when Lionel took control of the caves away from Lex.

I do think that Lionel wants to be good, to be Clarks' friend, protector and mentor and also to be in on the big good that Clark will be responsible for in the future. It's just that Lionel has way too much bad baggage that will get in his way of being good. Ultimately, Lionel will die and that death, I think will be related to Clark and to Lex.

[Jor-El Dealo]

lionel was handling things in his own f*cked up way. as someone stated, he is probably lost without jor-el's influence (if it is truly gone). jor-el had some questionable practices in how he dealt with clark as well. i don't think lionel was chosen randomly to be jor-el's emissary.

lionel clearly screwed up, but he was obviously torn about his actions. that wasn't all bs. lionel does not seem to have a lot of vices. at least twice, they showed him drinking a bit excessively over what he had done to clark. especially after realizing that that soldier was torturing clark. he did not think it through. patricia was on to something about him wanting to hoard clark to himself. when clark confronted lionel, that seemed like genuine remorse over what he did. he appeared sickly.

ultimately, i believe lionel's loyalty to clark will be proven by dying to save clark in some way. its the ultimate gesture.