A TV's run is no longer about how good the show is, Buffy vs Smallville

[Hopefulsuicide]

Now before i start this rant of an analysis, i just want to say i am a smallville fan, mainly because im obsessed with anything superman. i had a fit when i first discovered it was coming, and i havent missed an episode since. There are episodes i adore, the characters all have shining moments and some of the twists in the story are very exciting. Best things about smallville are lionel, chloe, braniac, the shatterd/asylum/ memoria plot, Clark on red k, Lana as a ***** and Lex's shocking idea of love (i.e. baby)

However, it suddenly clicked to me today that we are in Smallville's 7th season. 7! And there seems to be no indication that there won't be an 8th season. What the hell is that?

I'm a big fan of tv shows in the same genre. I love Alias (5 seasons) Roswell (3 seasons) Firefly (1 season) Angel (5 seasons) Lois and Clark (4 seasons) dead like me (2 seasons) wonderfalls (1 season) dead zone (6 seasons) and finally Buffy (7 seaons)

There is also x-files (9 seasons) and Charmed (8 seasons)

Take a look at all of these and explain to me why all the ones in the first lesson where cancelled at least a season before Smallville!

I'll tell you why, because whether a show stays on air isnt about whether it is a good show anymore, its about whether it gets ratings, and what Smallville has gotten down to a T is attracting an audience by showing off pretty people in skimpy outfits, or showers, turning the superman mythos into nothing much more than a teen agnst show like The OC, with a little splash of special effects.

A show like the x-files deserves 9 series, whether you think the last few were any good or not. A show like Charmed didn't... i think i will have no arguement that this was about pretty people aswell.

Yet a show like Firefly that was intellegent, well received, has now had alot of press due to the fanbase it created... was squished after not even a whole series?

Someone should create a Tv network that has values other than monetary. It's like there isnt even a chance for people to produce art on tv, to produce masterpeices... unless they throw in some sex and flashy cgi

Buffy was lucky. It had hotties, but that didnt take away from the story. In fact part of the idea is that the reason it's unexpected that she is so powerful is because shes just a hot blonde thing. It's sort of mocking itself.

Smallville is shamelessly exploiting it's actors and actresses, undermining interesting characters such as chloe because they arent marketable as sexual objects as much as others.

I'm sorry for the ramble it's just an injustice.

[vyperman7]

In the paragrah where you mentioned shows that you enjoyed, you wrote Dead Like Me twice and the second time you had put that it had 6 seasons. I am just wondering what show that you meant to say. Was it Dead Zone?

[MidgardDragon]

A TV show's run has never been about how good the show is. It's been about how many people are watching (according to the flawed Nielsen ratings) and how much money they can make in advertising (directly affected by how many people are watching).

[Hopefulsuicide]

Originally posted by vyperman7
In the paragrah where you mentioned shows that you enjoyed, you wrote Dead Like Me twice and the second time you had put that it had 6 seasons. I am just wondering what show that you meant to say. Was it Dead Zone?

oops yea i did mean dead zone, ill change that, thanks


Origionally posted by Midgard Dragon
A TV show's run has never been about how good the show is. It's been about how many people are watching (according to the flawed Nielsen ratings) and how much money they can make in advertising (directly affected by how many people are watching)

Well yeah, thats exactly what im complaining about on a moral level. Im saying its unjust, not that there is no reason for it. I know its all about money.

[ClarkyBoy14]

Why would a network keep a show around if it's not making enough money? If you sold vegetables and they all sold well except for squash, which is still taking up room, time, and money, would you keep selling squash or get rid of it to make room for a better selling vegetable or maybe even introduce a new one?

Anyways, one person's treasure is another person's trash. A few people like Firefly, but I don't care for it. And IMO, SV deserves all 7 seasons.

[Hopefulsuicide]

[QUOTE=ClarkyBoy14;3534458]Why would a network keep a show around if it's not making enough money? If you sold vegetables and they all sold well except for squash, which is still taking up room, time, and money, would you keep selling squash or get rid of it to make room for a better selling vegetable or maybe even introduce a new one?
[QUOTE]

How about, the really nice yummy vegetables where too expensive, so the shop decided to drop them and stick with the cheap not so yummy ones cause that meant they would make more money...

p.s. i know its just an opinion, and like i said, i love smallville

[cayayofm]

Hpoefulsuicide I get exactly what yo are saying. I think the question that you are asking, that I ask myself, is why are not people watching this great shows. I started watching Smallville in season 4 but after 3 years at the end of last season I was like why do I keep watching this show, is poor written, inconsistent, is not funny, the characters have not grown from season 1. I realized that Smallville had nothing to offer me and I stopped watching with last season's finale.

Buffy was lucky enough to find a faithful audience in a small network, Buffy would had never survived in NBC, ABC or another big network and that would had been a shame. Smallville has never been a great show, but at the begining it had impressive ratings for a WB show and right now is the only show along ANTP that is atrracting audience to The CW, if they could the would never cancel Smallville.

[Hopefulsuicide]

thankyou, at least someone agrees with me lol

[Mello Penelo]

I loved Charmed. It deserved every season.

[Estro-gen X]

I loved Charmed. It deserved every season.

I loved charmed too but it was a bit stretched by the end. I'm sort of glad Roswell finished in 3 seasons because it didn't get the chance to get stale. While Buffy was a shadow of its former self by series 7 i was glad it was still around even if Angel was consistently better and could have gone another season.

Smallville has just run out of stories for its leads. Clark and Lana go around in circles. Lex is evil but there is still hope for him once a season apparently. Chloe is nothing more than Google. Kara has injected life into the show like Green Arrow did last year. Its a new character and a new story to tell. Its gotten to the point I would rather have kara and oliver on than clark and lex. Smallville has already gotten stale so what is another season now on top of it? At least it will something at least entertaining to watch on thursday nights

[JB1986]

The thing with Buffy is that it always felt fresh, even well into the seventh season. There were always new stories to tell, and at least Joss Whedon knew how to keep things interesting, (i.e. <SPOILER ALERT!!> introducing Dawn in the fifth season, Buffy sacrificing herself in "The Gift," only to be resurrected in "Bargaining," the Spike & Buffy relationship, Dark Willow going on a rampage, the potential slayers, and everybody battling The First.) Smallville just keeps going around in circles. We are pretty much in the same place we were at in Season One. Clark really hasn't matured, Clark & Lana continue to go around in circles, and I really don't want to hear "It's so hard keeping my secret..." one more time! My point is that as a show, Buffy kept growing and maturing, never got old, and when it ended everybody was left just wanting a little bit more (which is the way it should be.) I feel that Smallville just keeps spinning its wheels, and that they're just stalling at this point, when the series realistically could have ended by now, and in a grand fashion.

[Hopefulsuicide]

definately... i dont disagree that buffy ended when it shud have... an 8th season wouldnt have been right... it ended at the perfect time in the perfect way

im only argueing that smallville's character progression (lex turning evil and clark becoming superman) should have happened alot quicker and smoother and it should have been wrapped up at least this season.

yes ill admit it is a bit of entertainment, but that isnt the sign of a good show, and when it first started i really thought it would be a good show

[knightofkrypton]

I have to agree.

I loved SV at first. By the fourth season, I was so mad I stopped watching the show. It was too repetitive. Clark and Lana is this endless mess that should've ended years ago kinda the same way the whole Lex and Clark dance is going too.

A friend introduced me to Firefly and by the middle of the first episode, I was SCREAMING at the TV "HOW COULD THIS SHOW GET CANCELED?!?!"

I understand why L&C got cancelled, as the show had gone more campy but it still left lots of people wanting more.

All I want for SV is for it to get canceled or just end.

I've since started watching Buffy and I love it. The characters actually mature throughout the series, and there are wonderfully inventive ideas constantly being pushed.

SV just seems a pale shadow of Buffy. It keeps going and going and Clark keeps "learning" the same lessons over and over and over. Just like his relationship with Lana. It's repetitive and retarded.

[Hopefulsuicide]

I have to agree.

It's repetitive and retarded.

lol, how wonderfully put

[6-Super-Man -5]

Why would a network keep a show around if it's not making enough money? If you sold vegetables and they all sold well except for squash, which is still taking up room, time, and money, would you keep selling squash or get rid of it to make room for a better selling vegetable or maybe even introduce a new one?

Anyways, one person's treasure is another person's trash. A few people like Firefly, but I don't care for it. And IMO, SV deserves all 7 seasons.

It does, maybe a Season 8 too.

[nicmar]

I can't agree on this Smallville has never overcome the same problems that has plagued it from day one. That is not to say that there are not good things about the show I like that it set out out to humanize Clark and show that Lex was not born evil and While I enjoyed seasons 1and 2 these problems were still there First the show has never come up with a villian that was a real threat for Clark he defeats then all with the same hand push thing. Even when the Krypotoians landed the were easily dispatched Smallville has never give us that one great superhero fight that we have waited years to see. Second the flaw of Lex and Clark knowing eachother is a problem because while it worked at first as soon as Lex became aware that Clark was dfferent ans suspected he had superpowers how is he not going to know who Superman is a few years later and know with an 8th season the gap is even shorter. Same for Lois Lane. Another Problem is the use of Krypotanite every time it get used as a crutch instead of just saying that the meteor freaks are threats in and of themselves they throw in the green k to weaken Clark, also they have no rules for this at first Lana's necklace is enough to render Clark powerless and weak but then in one episode Morgan edge puts him in a van full of the stuff and drives him all the way to Metropolise and he dosen't die. Finally either put Clark and Lana together or not the must have broken up and made up so many times I have lost count

[SSJConan]

First the show has never come up with a villian that was a real threat for Clark he defeats then all with the same hand push thing.count


Titan, Bizarro? Watch Clark's battles with those two, more to 'em than "hand push", they're pretty stellar fights. And Clark's victory over the Kryptonians, Nam-Ek and Atheyer, that was more a glorified fluke since he caught them off guard. Whilst with Zod, he was simply outclassed and couldn't touch him. Other villains that aren't aliens, as in meteor-infectees or meta-humans, Clark has to be careful with obviously, he can't just go super-punching and laying a murderous smackdown.

[nicmar]

no one is saying he should kill peolple but if they were portraied as threats in and of themself then this would not be an issue. I know this is not the comics but there are earth bound threats that have come close to supermans level. I will admit that I did not see the episode with Titan but the fact is he did use a push to defeat Nam-EK and Atheyer fluke or no I will also give you the point on Zod I had no problem with the way that was handled though the fact that the Krypotonians can posses people and apparently disembodied spirit of Jor-el can give and take super human powers as he pleases never sat right with me. I saw the Bizzarro fight tuned in specifically to see it in point of fact but was not impressed we agree to disagree and even if these I found these fights as steller as you did that would not overcome the other issues I have with the show

[SSJConan]

I will admit that I did not see the episode with Titan

Then please watch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2N3eIBx3es).

[Hopefulsuicide]

the titan episode was definately the best fight scene on smallville, and some of the best of tom welling's acting, and it is worth watching

however i agree with everything else micmar said

there has been so many opportunities for major villains but the biggest problem is that most of the big villains do not have enough hatred for clark

one of the greatest villains on Buffy was Angelus... why? because he knew her so well that he knew how to hurt her, and how to destroy her life and how to frighten her... same with Faith.

With Lex, there is totally this opportunity, but his 'evil' focus is not on Clark. If we could actually have Lex directing all his hatred towards Clark we might get some truly chilling and frightening scenes of villany... problem is, they are still trying to draw it out

hence why it will never be a very good show

[JB1986]

That is an excellent point. On Buffy they were able to make these grand villians that were a real threat to Buffy. Despite having all these powers, they still made her very human who could be defeated, therefore most of the villians (The Mayor, Glory, etc.) in fact posed a very real threat. Clark can easily overpower any freak of the week, plus they creators really don't seem to do season-long story arcs where there is one main villian present throughout the entire season. I guess Lex might count, but he has simply stalled since the end of season four with the episodes "Onyx" and "Commencement." He has a chance to be a great villian, but the writers are just spinning their wheels at this point.They just don't do season-long arcs to begin with. There is only one episode that sets up whatever is going to happen in the finale, whereas on Buffy, it took the whole season to get to the big battle in the finale. By that time I was so amped to see what would happen to Buffy and The Scoobies in the big finale. I do agree that Angelus was one of the best villians Buffy ever had. The fact that he was Buffy's lover tormented her endlessly, and Angelus knew this. He used his connection to her to torture Buffy mercilessly, and he was downright scary at times. Smallville has a the capacity to reach the heights that Buffy was able to reach, they just never even try to reach that high, it seems like.

[knightofkrypton]

With Lex, there is totally this opportunity, but his 'evil' focus is not on Clark. If we could actually have Lex directing all his hatred towards Clark we might get some truly chilling and frightening scenes of villany... problem is, they are still trying to draw it out

hence why it will never be a very good show

one of the problems with the whole Lex focusing on Clark though is that he can't.

1. Lex is supposed to solely focus his hatred on Superman. Not Clark Kent.

2.Lex and everyone else are already pushed too far into suspecting Clark, etc. If he starts focusing on Clark with his hatred instead of just his curiosity he'll quickly discover what Clark is made of.

But, in the End, I suppose it doesn't matter. The show has progressed too far for Clark to viably become Superman and Lex and friends not know about it. He might as well...you're right, it'd make the show more interesting.

[nicmar]

Yes I feel the same when I heard that Braniac was going to be introduced I came back to the show even though I was starting to be really disapointed, but I thought here is a major superman villian if anyone can challange or defeat Clark it would be Braniac he is right at the top of Suermans rogues gallery I knew him form the comics a little but mostly from the superman animated series but again he does not last the season and in easily defeated

[zanos]

Now before i start this rant of an analysis, i just want to say i am a smallville fan, mainly because im obsessed with anything superman. i had a fit when i first discovered it was coming, and i havent missed an episode since. There are episodes i adore, the characters all have shining moments and some of the twists in the story are very exciting. Best things about smallville are lionel, chloe, braniac, the shatterd/asylum/ memoria plot, Clark on red k, Lana as a ***** and Lex's shocking idea of love (i.e. baby)

However, it suddenly clicked to me today that we are in Smallville's 7th season. 7! And there seems to be no indication that there won't be an 8th season. What the hell is that?

I'm a big fan of tv shows in the same genre. I love Alias (5 seasons) Roswell (3 seasons) Firefly (1 season) Angel (5 seasons) Lois and Clark (4 seasons) dead like me (2 seasons) wonderfalls (1 season) dead zone (6 seasons) and finally Buffy (7 seaons)

There is also x-files (9 seasons) and Charmed (8 seasons)

Take a look at all of these and explain to me why all the ones in the first lesson where cancelled at least a season before Smallville!

I'll tell you why, because whether a show stays on air isnt about whether it is a good show anymore, its about whether it gets ratings, and what Smallville has gotten down to a T is attracting an audience by showing off pretty people in skimpy outfits, or showers, turning the superman mythos into nothing much more than a teen agnst show like The OC, with a little splash of special effects.

A show like the x-files deserves 9 series, whether you think the last few were any good or not. A show like Charmed didn't... i think i will have no arguement that this was about pretty people aswell.

Yet a show like Firefly that was intellegent, well received, has now had alot of press due to the fanbase it created... was squished after not even a whole series?

Someone should create a Tv network that has values other than monetary. It's like there isnt even a chance for people to produce art on tv, to produce masterpeices... unless they throw in some sex and flashy cgi

Buffy was lucky. It had hotties, but that didnt take away from the story. In fact part of the idea is that the reason it's unexpected that she is so powerful is because shes just a hot blonde thing. It's sort of mocking itself.

Smallville is shamelessly exploiting it's actors and actresses, undermining interesting characters such as chloe because they arent marketable as sexual objects as much as others.

I'm sorry for the ramble it's just an injustice.


What's funny about your post is that you are basically codemning Smallville for being artistically bankrupt and nothing more than a bunch of sellouts but then you watch every single episode. Don't you see that viewers like yourself are actually part of the problem?

[Jaded Wolf]

This is the thing I mentioned in another topic about Buffy vs Smallville. The thing with the Buffy series is it had good momentum and progression of the characters. It could have gone on to Season 8 but the cast and Joss Whedon felt that they could not progress further. They knew when to take their bows and exit out.

Smallville does not know that. None of the characters are progressing at all except for Lex. The whole show has become a concept of "reduce, reuse, recycle" all previously used plots. The characters have become stale. They've all got powers now. Mostly the show is an one hour product placement for Toyota, Ford, Sprint, and Stride Gum; and a promotional show for bands like One Republic and many others. They should just call Smallville at this point: "CW's Show Which is Carrying the Whole Network Because We Have Many Investors Advertising On Here".

[EmpressVader]

I agree, one thing Smallville lacks is character arcs. And it was a big mistake to go so far until "adult" Clark's life and introduce so many characters who aren't even suppose to have a reason to connect Clark Kent to Superman. Lex especially. Because they had a few well defined "results" to account for at the end of the series (Clark becoming Superman, Lex becoming a super villian, Lana leaving Clark's life and Lois entering it) they should have planned their journey towards that end cohesively and I don't think they ever did.

Buffy definatly had a decent amount of Character growth throughout the years (I mean just look at the Willow character's evolution alone -- wow). Where as 20 year old Clark is still acting like 16 year old Clark.

[Hopefulsuicide]

What's funny about your post is that you are basically codemning Smallville for being artistically bankrupt and nothing more than a bunch of sellouts but then you watch every single episode. Don't you see that viewers like yourself are actually part of the problem?

:rotfl:

actually i do know... but i just cant stop... im a superman addict... if it in any way relates to Clark Kent, i want to see it

[constantine]

...And I can say this because I was in the target demograph at the time, but buffy and angel had the originality that smallville in many way lacks; Joss has a way of making issues that are important at the time entertaining, and I really feel that had he, or the cast or UPN decided to, they could have taken the show further along, evolved it more and inspired a lot more - that was the charm of buffy, and that was the charm of angel. Smallville is uninspired - all the topics it tries to tackle, has already been tackled in ways that are a lot more eloquent. I do, incidentally apologise if this upsets anyone, but seriously - for all of its faults, doctor who and torchwood were inspired by Russel T. Davies loving Buffy and Angel; can smallville say that? can you honestly say that smallville will be remembered long after it's over?

I don't think so. Smallville is a product of the hollywood cash machine; it's milking the superman franchise for every penny it's worth - it isn't about creativity; it's about the wonder twins raping the superman storyline for every cent and pence it's worth. There is the difference between the two.

[nicmar]

I think most of the doubt is washing away now that it is confirmed that Lex and Lana will not be back full time next year leaving only Clark and Chole as the only series regulars to be on every season maybe Martha too I haven't seen the show in a while I tune in and out if I hear there is a new development or another DC chacter will appear like Pris from Blade Runner I mean Black Cannarey so I can't speak to Martha but Linole was not a regular in season 1

[Hopefulsuicide]

...And I can say this because I was in the target demograph at the time, but buffy and angel had the originality that smallville in many way lacks; Joss has a way of making issues that are important at the time entertaining, and I really feel that had he, or the cast or UPN decided to, they could have taken the show further along, evolved it more and inspired a lot more - that was the charm of buffy, and that was the charm of angel. Smallville is uninspired - all the topics it tries to tackle, has already been tackled in ways that are a lot more eloquent. I do, incidentally apologise if this upsets anyone, but seriously - for all of its faults, doctor who and torchwood were inspired by Russel T. Davies loving Buffy and Angel; can smallville say that? can you honestly say that smallville will be remembered long after it's over?

I don't think so. Smallville is a product of the hollywood cash machine; it's milking the superman franchise for every penny it's worth - it isn't about creativity; it's about the wonder twins raping the superman storyline for every cent and pence it's worth. There is the difference between the two.

you have just put into words everything i have been trying to say, but you've done it alot more eloquently

*makes audience clapping noises*

Smallville really isnt ABOUT anything deeper than fun stories. they dont even try. there is no substance.

[zanos]

:rotfl:

actually i do know... but i just cant stop... im a superman addict... if it in any way relates to Clark Kent, i want to see it


Then you really have nothing to complain about.

[Hopefulsuicide]

what's with this new theme at the moment of 'put up and shut up, like it or lump it'

why can't i watch the show and post on this forum and still be a smallville fan - and still point out it's flaws?

[zanos]

You're not pointing out flaws as much as you are questioning the integrity of the ppl behind the show who haven't changed the way they produced Smallville since day one. It's hypocritcal because what does that say about you that you continue to watch it? That's like someone who criticizes pop music for being too commercial and meaningless and filled with pretty looking ppl like Britney Spears who have no talent and have no clue what real music is really about and then turning around and buying all her albums.

[Hopefulsuicide]

why is it like that? i dont buy smallville anymore?

i watch the show because it's there... it's on and nothing much else is... it costs me personally nothing to watch the show. if i had to pay for it. i'd save my money for something better

i dont think im being hypocritical at all, just honest

and how is pointing out the flaws of the people behing the show not pointing out the flaws. IMO the people behind the show are the ones making the flaws.

sorry i just dont understand how critising writers/directors/actors means im not really criticising the show

[zanos]

Yes it doesn't cost you anything monetarily but it does cost you time. And one would need to question why anyone would waste 7 seasons on something they don't consider worthwhile.

[cayayofm]

That is exactly why I stopped watching Smallville, because is a waste of time. I saw season 3 in reruns first and I thought okay it's good enough and bought the first 3 seasons to catch up an starting watching in season 4. I saw the same old over for 3 years, tired stories, bad characterization, poor writing and last year I thought why am I watching this and realized it has nothing to offer and have not seen a single episode of season 7...... no sorry I saw one a week that I had nothing to do, the one where Kara poses in a beauty peagent...lol... it was horrible and yep, I was sure I made the right choice. Also I cought the last 5 minutes last week waiting for Reaper to start and I have heard of a big cliffhanger I thought really this is a cliffhanger?

----- Added 3 Minutes later -----

You know, I am watching Angel season 4 right now. I prefer to sit trough this again than watch new episodes from Smallville.

[Hopefulsuicide]

You know, I am watching Angel season 4 right now. I prefer to sit trough this again than watch new episodes from Smallville.

yup... it's getting to the point where i'd rather watch the cordy/connor sex scene on repeat for an hour

well maybe not that bad :rotfl:

[Kevin24]

Buffy was a good show until Angel left. After that in my opinion it went downhill....with that one dorky girl becoming a witch or whatever and probably more powerful then the star of the show buffy. Then spike and buffy becoming an item >_>

Then Dawn came, that show got old fast and to me it lost its appeal. It wasn't even buffy the vampire slayer anymore, it morphed into a completely different show. The only reason I started watching the show is because I liked the movie.

In my opinion after angel left, it went in a direction i didnt agree with and Roswell was great until season 3 .

Angel though, was a great series!

[Fat Elvis 007]

Buffy was a good show until Angel left. After that in my opinion it went downhill....with that one dorky girl becoming a witch or whatever and probably more powerful then the star of the show buffy. Then spike and buffy becoming an item >_>

Then Dawn came, that show got old fast and to me it lost its appeal. It wasn't even buffy the vampire slayer anymore, it morphed into a completely different show. The only reason I started watching the show is because I liked the movie.

In my opinion after angel left, it went in a direction i didnt agree with and Roswell was great until season 3 .

Angel though, was a great series!


I pretty much agree with this. I mostly like S4 and S5, though they had their flaws, but S6 and 7 were just awful, and yes, Willow's growing powers, the insertion of Dawn, and the Spuffy relationship were big reasons why the quality began to drop. I don't think Angel leaving had much to do with it though; I liked the character, but it was time for him to go and start his own show. He had no further purpose on Buffy. If the writers had decided to keep him on despite the fact that he served no purpose, just because fans and the writers had a crush on the sexy vampire...well, then he would have been Spike. ;)

[Kevin24]

Yeah, Willow that is her name .....she was cute and everything but in the show she was a dork! I always liked Xander though, he was funny. It did have it's moments but like you said when she started growing her powers it really turned me off and dawn being her half sister and then its revealed that she wasn't her sister at all ! hehe, don't want to ruin it for anyone watching it for the first time.

I agree with Angel his time on the show was done and I know I am a Buffy & Angel fanatic so of course I always wanted them to be together :) I liked spike on buffy and on angel but later on in the buffy series he kinda became....he just wasn't a bad ass anymore.

Overal in my opinion Angel > Buffy the Vampire Slayer

[Fat Elvis 007]

Yeah, Willow that is her name .....she was cute and everything but in the show she was a dork! I always liked Xander though, he was funny. It did have it's moments but like you said when she started growing her powers it really turned me off

I didn't have a problem with Willow becoming a witch, but I do think she became too powerful. She can currently be seen flying around like Superman in the pages of the "Buffy: Season 8" comic series, which is just so un-Buffy. I just didn't like it that her magic started to define her more than her other qualities, and the "magic=crack" storyline was just awful.


and dawn being her half sister and then its revealed that she wasn't her sister at all ! hehe, don't want to ruin it for anyone watching it for the first time.

Actually, Dawn wasn't her half-sister, she was her full-blooded sister.


I agree with Angel his time on the show was done and I know I am a Buffy & Angel fanatic so of course I always wanted them to be together :) I liked spike on buffy and on angel but later on in the buffy series he kinda became....he just wasn't a bad ass anymore.

Overal in my opinion Angel > Buffy the Vampire Slayer

I love Buffy more, but I do think that Angel, despite having some flaws in the later years as well, was overall more consistent and had a way better ending.

[Vergon6]

Really, A TV show's run was never how about how good the show is. It's all about ratings, and/or the whims of the TV executives. Fox seemed to be trying to cancel Arrested Development from the very start despite a core group of fans, critical acclaim, and winning Emmys out of the gate. In Season 2 and Season 3, they kept on reducing the episode number, and in the final season (which was Season 3), instead of showing Arrested Development, they would show encore presentations of Prison Break (which they likely had already repeated three times that week).

[slayfan]

I love that I found this thread because these are some of the very things I have been complaining about lately to my friends. I have been scratching my head over stupid decisions that the network execs make. I understand that this is a businiss and that they are out to make money but they no longer give shows a chance to find their audience. There are many great shows of the past (Seinfeld and Cheers come to mind) that were not immediate number one shows. Sometimes a show takes a little time to find and audience but if its good enough eventually it will if given a chance. Think about how many times you have read on a thread somewhere that someone didn't start watching a show until season 2 or three, heck right here in this thread it is mentioned. But I find that nowadays if something dosent break the top ten list out of the gate it gets killed. I have felt frustrated by this for years but in the last two months I lost Moonlight which I had just found and even though it is long gone a friend introduced me to Firefly and I fell deeply in love and am truly baffled that it never even made it through a whole season.

Now as to the Buffy vs Smallville discussion. Although I really like certain aspects of Smallville (Clark, Chloe, Lois) there are also things that frustrate me to no end (Clana, Clarks lack of development). It is obvious that while Joss was wise enough to know that dragging Bangel through seven seasons would kill any specialness they had the same cannot be said of Smallville. Clana should have ended back in season five for absolute sure but they tried to drag it out knowing that Clark doesn't even end up with her they still made us watch Clark moon over her and choose watching corn grow with Lana by his side over becomeing a superhero. But Lana had a huge fan following and they tried to make them happy and now we are left with a hero that isn't. To me they should take a few pages from Joss book and 1, end Clana for good (and Clark should be the one to realize that Lana isn't his future, to have her be the one cheapens his eventual feelings for Lois), and 2, they should decide that this is the last season and plan it accordingly. What I liked about season seven of Buffy was that right from Lessons all the way to Chosen you knew this was it. This was the end and you had to know where it was going. The whole season had an epic feel to it and that is what Smallville needs.

Now before I get bashed for watching a show that I am complaining about let me just say that I watch it because I do like the show and I don't consider it a waste of my time. I just know that while its good now, it could actually be great. IMO Buffy was always great. (and know I now that Firefly was as well.)

[Parrotheadpress]

I pretty much agree with this. I mostly like S4 and S5, though they had their flaws, but S6 and 7 were just awful, and yes, Willow's growing powers, the insertion of Dawn, and the Spuffy relationship were big reasons why the quality began to drop. I don't think Angel leaving had much to do with it though; I liked the character, but it was time for him to go and start his own show. He had no further purpose on Buffy. If the writers had decided to keep him on despite the fact that he served no purpose, just because fans and the writers had a crush on the sexy vampire...well, then he would have been Spike. ;)


For me, I think S4 and S7 are right up there for the worst seasons of Buffy. Riley is adorable and "Hush" is a fantastic episode, but Season 4 suffered a lot by a crummy storyline: The Initiative. It was silly and took away a lot of from the heart of Buffy...her power within, the Scoobies, etc. Sure, it had some funny moments and even good moments, but overall, the season was probably the worst for me.

I personally hated the insertion of Dawn. I thought she was annoying and silly as well. We kill characters like Anya, Fred and Wesley, but Joss had to keep Dawn? Oh, the humanity. But as the show went on, the storylines and villains did in fact get worse. Adam, Glory, etc. The Master was a hell of a villian to top, although Angelus and Dru were a good combo, too. I have to say though, I didn't mind seeing Willow come into her own as a powerful being. She didn't just grow up, she grew. Sure, they took it too far at times, but Buffy went too far more than once. Buffy's relationship with Spike was no different.

But here's the thing. You say that Angel was more consistent, but in all honesty, it had some F'ed up storylines as well. The Cordy/Conner thing was crap as was the Jasmine story arc. The move to Wolfram & Hart twisted the characters as much as magic twisted Willow or love twisted Spike. Gunn did a complete turnaround and wasn't the vampire fighter that we were introduced to. His personality didn't even correlate anymore.

Both shows came up with crazy plots, twists and turns trying to keep the show fresh. Not all of their attempts worked. But we're fans and fans watch their teams lose and their favorite shows whether good or bad. Buffy and Angel will both continue to be watched in reruns and on DVD, and Smallville will be watched every week and on DVD. No, it may not be as good as it once was, and maybe it's starting to get tired and old, but we're fans. We love Clark Kent, we're anxiously awaiting him to become the hero we know he is, and we support every step of the way ... the same we did Buffy and Angel.

[Fat Elvis 007]

Really, A TV show's run was never how about how good the show is. It's all about ratings, and/or the whims of the TV executives. Fox seemed to be trying to cancel Arrested Development from the very start despite a core group of fans, critical acclaim, and winning Emmys out of the gate. In Season 2 and Season 3, they kept on reducing the episode number, and in the final season (which was Season 3), instead of showing Arrested Development, they would show encore presentations of Prison Break (which they likely had already repeated three times that week).

Oh, you do NOT want to get me started on "Arrested Development." I'm confident that if it had been on NBC, it would still be on today. And if "The Office" and "30 Rock" were on FOX, they would both be gone.

----- Added 18 Minutes later -----


For me, I think S4 and S7 are right up there for the worst seasons of Buffy. Riley is adorable and "Hush" is a fantastic episode, but Season 4 suffered a lot by a crummy storyline: The Initiative. It was silly and took away a lot of from the heart of Buffy...her power within, the Scoobies, etc. Sure, it had some funny moments and even good moments, but overall, the season was probably the worst for me.

Season 4, without a doubt, had it's problems, but I can't say it's anywhere near as bad as Season 7. I thought The Initiative was a great idea, just poorly executed, which is more than I can say about the First. Plus, there was just more consistency and continuity. And the characters still seemed to have affection for each other. Yes, they grew apart, but only to come back together in the end (by sharing a body, which was awesome and perfect.) The message was clearly that the Core Four needed each other, a message that is sorely lacking in Season 7.


I personally hated the insertion of Dawn. I thought she was annoying and silly as well. We kill characters like Anya, Fred and Wesley, but Joss had to keep Dawn? Oh, the humanity.

I can see why Joss didn't kill her, because she was the youngest and considered an innocent, and it would have just completely ruined Buffy the character. She just wouldn't have been able to recover. I do resent that her presence forced Buffy to set her as her highest priority. It made the Scooby interaction of old hard to come by. Also, it's weird to think that the Scoobs never got their real memories back, so a lot of what we remember happening in the first four seasons is at least slightly different. But I liked the overall arc of Season 5. She was absolutely intolerable in Season 6, though. Seriously girl, you are a teenager. Go get some actual friends and stop whining/stealing to get attention from your older sister and her friends.


But as the show went on, the storylines and villains did in fact get worse. Adam, Glory, etc.

Adam was awful and boring, but I liked Glory. I thought she was funny. A bit overexposed, though. Nothing kills a good villain like too much screentime (*cough*Spike*cough*).


The Master was a hell of a villian to top, although Angelus and Dru were a good combo, too.

I liked all them, but my fave would have to be the Mayor.


I have to say though, I didn't mind seeing Willow come into her own as a powerful being. She didn't just grow up, she grew. Sure, they took it too far at times, but Buffy went too far more than once.

I just think it was unwise to make her capable of just about anything. It made her lack of confidence in Season 7 completely annoying. I do like that she found strength through her magic, though. Mostly I just hate that it led to Magic!Crack and DarkWillow.


Buffy's relationship with Spike was no different.

As Set said recently on TWoP, I would like Spuffy if it didn't require me to hate both Buffy and Spike. :p


But here's the thing. You say that Angel was more consistent, but in all honesty, it had some F'ed up storylines as well. The Cordy/Conner thing was crap as was the Jasmine story arc.

I liked parts of the Jasmine story arc, but I hate what they did to Cordy in Seasons 3 and 4.


The move to Wolfram & Hart twisted the characters as much as magic twisted Willow or love twisted Spike.

Yeah...it's been a while since I've seen Season 5. It was the first season I saw, but after seeing the first four, I started to realize that S5 was really boring in comparison, especially with the office setting, the wealth of resources the gang had, and zero Cordelia (until "Your Welcome," which was awesome). I hated that they then killed both Fred and Wesley, and now in the comics, Gunn. So every human ever in the main cast is now dead. Ugh. Plus, Illyria, though pretty cool, was just too derivative of the Cordy/Jasmine arc.


Gunn did a complete turnaround and wasn't the vampire fighter that we were introduced to. His personality didn't even correlate anymore.


True.


Both shows came up with crazy plots, twists and turns trying to keep the show fresh. Not all of their attempts worked. But we're fans and fans watch their teams lose and their favorite shows whether good or bad. Buffy and Angel will both continue to be watched in reruns and on DVD, and Smallville will be watched every week and on DVD. No, it may not be as good as it once was, and maybe it's starting to get tired and old, but we're fans. We love Clark Kent, we're anxiously awaiting him to become the hero we know he is, and we support every step of the way ... the same we did Buffy and Angel.

I think that's called addiction. :p But don't worry, I'll be right there in the support groups with you!

[knightofkrypton]

I just finished Season 5 of Angel, after watching Buffy straight through and Angel Straight through.

***WARNING SPOILERS AHEAD*****



I enjoyed Season 5 but I agree it was lacking. I honestly don't understand the killing of Fred......by "killing her" and keeping the same actress to play a different character it cheapened the death of Fred to me. I honestly saw no reason to kill her except to give Wesley more grief. Poor Wesley.....

I am mixed about the final scene also....I LOVED the way it ended but at the same time HATED it. I understand (my opinion) that By the way it ended, Joss was attempting to say...It doesn't matter if they lived or died, won or lost, they chose to keep fighting the good fight and thats what was important.

But at the same time I REALLY REALLY wanted to see that fight.

I've yet to get the comics, waiting until the first volume of Angel S6 is released.

I will say that regardless of some of the bad seasons Buffy and Angel....so far I would take them over SV any day. Clark's inability to grow and learn is so annoying. Emotionally he seems he stopped growing in Season 2 and stayed right there. Granted I haven't seen S7 yet...but eh.

[Fat Elvis 007]

I just finished Season 5 of Angel, after watching Buffy straight through and Angel Straight through.

***WARNING SPOILERS AHEAD*****



I enjoyed Season 5 but I agree it was lacking. I honestly don't understand the killing of Fred......by "killing her" and keeping the same actress to play a different character it cheapened the death of Fred to me. I honestly saw no reason to kill her except to give Wesley more grief. Poor Wesley.....

I am mixed about the final scene also....I LOVED the way it ended but at the same time HATED it. I understand (my opinion) that By the way it ended, Joss was attempting to say...It doesn't matter if they lived or died, won or lost, they chose to keep fighting the good fight and thats what was important.

But at the same time I REALLY REALLY wanted to see that fight.

I've yet to get the comics, waiting until the first volume of Angel S6 is released.

I will say that regardless of some of the bad seasons Buffy and Angel....so far I would take them over SV any day. Clark's inability to grow and learn is so annoying. Emotionally he seems he stopped growing in Season 2 and stayed right there. Granted I haven't seen S7 yet...but eh.

I personally love the Angel finale. It's especially awesome when compared to Buffy's nonsensical, boring, and message-destroying finale. "Not Fade Away" actually delivered on it's message, rather than abandoning it for Senor Cheekbones.

As for finding any season of Buffy or Angel better than any season of SV....I'm not sure if I agree. There are some episodes of Buffy that I think are as bad as any of the worst of Smallville. If you ask me which is worse, "Lies My Parents Told Me" or "Promise," I couldn't decide. But at it's peaks, the shows were way better than SV. As much as I love "Lineage" or "Shattered," they can't match my love for "Becoming" or "Darla."

[CallMeClark]

Boring? I beg to differ. "Chosen" was classic. It was showed everything the show was about; friendship, fighting, death, bonds, realizations, etc... Not to mention the fight scenes were pretty epic. "Chosen" had closure, which "Not Fade Away" did not. As you know Joss wasn't sure at the time if Angel was coming back or not so "Not Fade Away" was actually not wrote as a series finale, it was wrote as a season finale. I think it's absurd to even compare the two, and trump Angel's as being "awesome."

I wrote a Smallville comparison (years ago) in the Buffy forum. I will try to find it. My opinions may have changed. :lol:

[Fat Elvis 007]

Boring? I beg to differ. "Chosen" was classic. It was showed everything the show was about; friendship, fighting, death, bonds, realizations, etc... Not to mention the fight scenes were pretty epic. "Chosen" had closure, which "Not Fade Away" did not. As you know Joss wasn't sure at the time if Angel was coming back or not so "Not Fade Away" was actually not wrote as a series finale, it was wrote as a season finale. I think it's absurd to even compare the two, and trump Angel's as being "awesome."


I've gone ever the many flaws of "Chosen" in the Buffy thread: plot holes the size of the crater that once was Sunnydale, plot contrivances galore, Buffy's nonsensical plan...but the biggest problem that it has that "Not Fade Away" doesn't is that it completely destroys one of the main messages of the show. It had always been a very feminist, girl power-driven series. So can anyone explain to me why Joss decided to have it end with a male vampire saving everyone's ass because Buffy's plan sucked? Oh, that's right. "Bcuz Spike iz hawttt!!eleven!!!111!"

Instead of the message being that girls can succeed and be brilliant and not have to depend on a man, the message became, "Buffy's plan is failing miserably so Spike has to save her. Isn't he just awesome?"

The message of Angel, however, was that it doesn't matter whether you live or die, win or lose, as long as you have the integrity to keep fighting for good until the end. That message was clear in the final episode. I'll take that over a rushed and half-hearted attempt at "closure" any day of the week.

[Vergon6]

I remember reading in interview with Joss Whedon that contrary to popular belief, "Not Fade Away" was not meant as a cliffhanger, but they had some ideas of what would happen if they did get extended (ie something vaguely resembling what is happening in the comics). The message at the end was that the Angel team went out they way the came in, fighting. Hence Angel's battle cry at the end right before the charge the oncoming army-"Let's go to work."

Personally, when I saw it the first time, I was like "that's it?". But I have grown more appreciative of the ending and it's meaning over time. That is not to say that part of me is still not bothered by it.

While I liked "Chosen" overall, I do think the final moments of "The Gift" were more powerful. Buffy sacrificing herself to save the world, and suggesting just one of the many layers to the original Slayer's message that "Death is your gift". At that moment, Buffy knew what she had to do.

[Fat Elvis 007]

I remember reading in interview with Joss Whedon that contrary to popular belief, "Not Fade Away" was not meant as a cliffhanger, but they had some ideas of what would happen if they did get extended (ie something vaguely resembling what is happening in the comics). The message at the end was that the Angel team went out they way the came in, fighting. Hence Angel's battle cry at the end right before the charge the oncoming army-"Let's go to work."

Personally, when I saw it the first time, I was like "that's it?". But I have grown more appreciative of the ending and it's meaning over time. That is not to say that part of me is still not bothered by it.

While I liked "Chosen" overall, I do think the final moments of "The Gift" were more powerful. Buffy sacrificing herself to save the world, and suggesting just one of the many layers to the original Slayer's message that "Death is your gift". At that moment, Buffy knew what she had to do.

I like "The Gift," and I think it works better as a series finale than "Chosen," but at the same time I'm kind of glad they didn't end the show with Buffy dead. I do like the last moment of "Chosen" where Buffy smiles, knowing that she can do anything now, and I like that in Season 8 she has chosen to keep fighting (though I wish we could have seen her have a little conflict about this; maybe we'll get flashbacks.) I'm conflicted though, because while I'm glad Buffy was resurrected, I hate what her life became in S6-7. Maybe she would be better off in heeeaaven. *shrugs*

[CallMeClark]

I I don't think you get what Buffy did, though. Maybe she didn't destroy all the ubber vamps but she changed the world. She unleashed the spirit of a slayer in hundreds of girls. Her plan was not "nonsensical" it was ingenious.

[Vergon6]

Maybe she would be better off in heeeaaven. *shrugs*
That was basically Buffy's mindset in Season 6. While Season 7 did have some problems, I clearly don't have as many problems with it as you do, but we have already covered that. For me, Season 6 was the least enjoyable. I mean Buffy having sex with Spike just to "feel something".

About "The Gift" and then the follow-ups "The Bargaining" (that was the two-part Season 6 premiere right), I still don't quite understand the logistics of it all. I get that the energy ripped the life from her I guess, but why did she go to heaven. Given that it was rip in the fabric of space time, and the key (Dawn) was being used by Glory to open the portal, I would have thought Buffy would have landed, body and all into some sort of hell dimension like Angel. I suppose they addressed that confusion by the gang thinking her soul was being tormented in a hell dimension though.

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----


I I don't think you get what Buffy did, though. Maybe she didn't destroy all the ubber vamps but she changed the world. She unleashed the spirit of a slayer in hundreds of girls. Her plan was not "nonsensical" it was ingenious.
I thought that part of the plan was a bit ingenious too. I can't speak for Fat Elvis, but perhaps he has a bigger problem with Spike being the one who deals the final blow, and not only that, but not by force but through a magical amulet.

[jimmyolsenblues]

buffy was a much better acted, written, produced, much better everything than smallville

[Vergon6]

buffy was a much better acted, written, produced, much better everything than smallville
Well, at much more basic level, we didn't have a writing staff fixated on triangles all the time (but they did happen of course), and weren't fixated on dragging one relationship over and over again. Angel and Buffy had their angsty moments but after three years, Angel left for Los Angeles, so it wasn't Buffy and Angel for Seven seasons. Joss Whedon teased people with Buffy and Angel rekindling their romance a few times but it was brief and fleeting. Then Angel was left with the lingering comment from Buffy that she was like "cookie dough" ;)

[Fat Elvis 007]

I I don't think you get what Buffy did, though. Maybe she didn't destroy all the ubber vamps but she changed the world. She unleashed the spirit of a slayer in hundreds of girls. Her plan was not "nonsensical" it was ingenious.

I "get it," thank you very much. I've viewed and analyzed the episode many times. And that wasn't the part of the plan I didn't like. I actually think the concept of Buffy empowering all the potential Slayers was a great strategy and a perfect feminist note to end the series on.

It was Joss Whedon who chose to have that plan be a complete failure, not me. Go talk to him about not getting it. It wasn't the Slayers who allowed them to win, it was Spike, Angel, and Wolfram and Hart; forces that were all male and had been evil at one time or another. Without them, they would have all died horribly. Not exactly inspiring to young women.

Disregarding that, empowering the Slayers wasn't the part of the plan I was talking about.

I'm talking about how Buffy decided to wait until the fight had already started to do the empowerment spell; I'm talking about how no one thought to blow holes in the roof of the high school to kill the vamps with sunlight; I'm talking about how she allowed Anya and Andrew, the two weakest fighters, to group together.

But I can't blame the character of Buffy, because there was so much about the episode that didn't make sense that she can't be held accountable for. The ubervamps are conveniently ten times weaker than they were in "Bring on the Night" and "Showtime." The First never has his vast array of minions to come open the seal so that he can unleash his army, until of course Buffy comes along and does it for him. We don't even get to see The First be destroyed, it's just assumed he is because the Hellmouth is gone.

To sum up, Buffy's "ingenious" plan didn't even come close to getting a victory. She was just lucky Angel came along. That's not my interpretation, that was what we all saw on our television screens.

And that's why I respect the "Angel" finale so much more; Angel didn't have Wesley tell him, in an obvious ploy of audience manipulation, that his plan was "Bloody brilliant!" like Giles told Buffy. The writing had more respect for the audience than that. The gang fully expected to die, but they decided to fight for good anyways. They didn't kiss Angel's ass and try to make the audience believe an obvious lie. And that's why "NFA" has integrity and "Chosen" does not.

----- Added 5 Minutes later -----


That was basically Buffy's mindset in Season 6. While Season 7 did have some problems, I clearly don't have as many problems with it as you do, but we have already covered that. For me, Season 6 was the least enjoyable. I mean Buffy having sex with Spike just to "feel something".

Oh, I hear you. I honestly can't decide which is worse.


About "The Gift" and then the follow-ups "The Bargaining" (that was the two-part Season 6 premiere right), I still don't quite understand the logistics of it all. I get that the energy ripped the life from her I guess, but why did she go to heaven. Given that it was rip in the fabric of space time, and the key (Dawn) was being used by Glory to open the portal, I would have thought Buffy would have landed, body and all into some sort of hell dimension like Angel. I suppose they addressed that confusion by the gang thinking her soul was being tormented in a hell dimension though.

Well, I guess it could be that because of Buffy's blood, the energy of the portal simply stopped working, and thus Buffy wasn't sucked in. Of course, it was still destructive enough to kill Buffy, so....

The whole plot of "The Gift" is really logistically flawed. The whole "We have the same blood" thing isn't really explained; Anya refers to the Hammer as belonging to a "Troll God," when before he was just called a Troll; and hey, how come nobody thought about the Dagonsphere earlier? But it doesn't really bother me, because it still hits all the right emotional notes without feeling manipulative. JMO.



I thought that part of the plan was a bit ingenious too. I can't speak for Fat Elvis, but perhaps he has a bigger problem with Spike being the one who deals the final blow, and not only that, but not by force but through a magical amulet.

Yep. :)

[Parrotheadpress]

Oh, you do NOT want to get me started on "Arrested Development." I'm confident that if it had been on NBC, it would still be on today. And if "The Office" and "30 Rock" were on FOX, they would both be gone.

----- Added 18 Minutes later -----



Season 4, without a doubt, had it's problems, but I can't say it's anywhere near as bad as Season 7. I thought The Initiative was a great idea, just poorly executed, which is more than I can say about the First. Plus, there was just more consistency and continuity. And the characters still seemed to have affection for each other. Yes, they grew apart, but only to come back together in the end (by sharing a body, which was awesome and perfect.) The message was clearly that the Core Four needed each other, a message that is sorely lacking in Season 7.



I can see why Joss didn't kill her, because she was the youngest and considered an innocent, and it would have just completely ruined Buffy the character. She just wouldn't have been able to recover. I do resent that her presence forced Buffy to set her as her highest priority. It made the Scooby interaction of old hard to come by. Also, it's weird to think that the Scoobs never got their real memories back, so a lot of what we remember happening in the first four seasons is at least slightly different. But I liked the overall arc of Season 5. She was absolutely intolerable in Season 6, though. Seriously girl, you are a teenager. Go get some actual friends and stop whining/stealing to get attention from your older sister and her friends.



Adam was awful and boring, but I liked Glory. I thought she was funny. A bit overexposed, though. Nothing kills a good villain like too much screentime (*cough*Spike*cough*).



I liked all them, but my fave would have to be the Mayor.



I just think it was unwise to make her capable of just about anything. It made her lack of confidence in Season 7 completely annoying. I do like that she found strength through her magic, though. Mostly I just hate that it led to Magic!Crack and DarkWillow.


As Set said recently on TWoP, I would like Spuffy if it didn't require me to hate both Buffy and Spike. :p



I liked parts of the Jasmine story arc, but I hate what they did to Cordy in Seasons 3 and 4.


Yeah...it's been a while since I've seen Season 5. It was the first season I saw, but after seeing the first four, I started to realize that S5 was really boring in comparison, especially with the office setting, the wealth of resources the gang had, and zero Cordelia (until "Your Welcome," which was awesome). I hated that they then killed both Fred and Wesley, and now in the comics, Gunn. So every human ever in the main cast is now dead. Ugh. Plus, Illyria, though pretty cool, was just too derivative of the Cordy/Jasmine arc.


True.



I think that's called addiction. :p But don't worry, I'll be right there in the support groups with you!


On villians: I completely forgot about the mayor! But for me, his character lost a lot of oomph when he turned into a big snake. There was so much character development, and all of that work resulted in him being a big snake? And Glory WAS fun, but like you said, she was way too prominent.

[CallMeClark]

Nicely put, Elvis. Hmm.

Well did it also annoy you when Giles and Xander aided Buffy it season 4 defeating Adam? And when Xander was the one to save the world in season 6? Both has influences of male heroes, not to mention Xander pretty much saved the say in season 6.

While the show may be about female empowerment I think it's more about trust and friendship (teamwork).

[cayayofm]

If you ask me which is worse, "Lies My Parents Told Me" or "Promise," I couldn't decide.

Weird you chose this episode of Smallville while flawed, it is one of the three only watchable episodes of season 6,(Justice, Promise, Nemesis) the rest is crap, but I guess you chose it because choices made with the characters like LMPT.

I think that a mayor difference between Buffy and Smallville is that even when the decline in quality is noticeable in both shows, Buffy still had some great character development and great writing, "Once More With Feeling", "Conversations With Dead People", "Dead Things" at the other hand Smallville's last great episode was season's 5 "Hidden".

Hey, I wont defend "Chosen" while I like it, it is very flawed, a little messy and the message while clear, is overshadowed by Spike's arc. Can't dissagree with you.

----- Added 11 Minutes later -----



While the show may be about female empowerment I think it's more about trust and friendship (teamwork).

I'm sure Elvis is going to jump to answer this. I agree Buffy was always about friendship and team work. That is what made Buffy a great slayer and that is why it was disappointing seeing the series ending with Buffy making harsh decisions alone (Dirty Girls) and the friends not trusting each other, even kicking her out of her home (Empty Places).

[Fat Elvis 007]

Nicely put, Elvis. Hmm.

Well did it also annoy you when Giles and Xander aided Buffy it season 4 defeating Adam? And when Xander was the one to save the world in season 6? Both has influences of male heroes, not to mention Xander pretty much saved the say in season 6.

While the show may be about female empowerment I think it's more about trust and friendship (teamwork).

No, those instances didn't bother me at all. Because they didn't happen in the final moments of the final episode of the series. I don't have a problem with someone else saving the world in a finale. Xander earned the right to that honor in Season 6, after he was pushed so far into the background. And I certainly don't have a problem with Buffy's friends helping her out.

What I have a problem with is having Buffy's plan completely fail, letting the men be solely responsible for stopping the apocalypse in the final episode of the series, when it's supposed to be a show about female empowerment.

I do think the themes of trust and teamwork were just as important, if not more so; but "Chosen" didn't show teamwork, it showed Spike saving everyone else by wearing a necklace.

JMHO.

----- Added 8 Minutes later -----


Weird you chose this episode of Smallville while flawed, it is one of the three only watchable episodes of season 6,(Justice, Promise, Nemesis) the rest is crap, but I guess you chose it because choices made with the characters like LMPT.

Eh, I'd disagree with this. I think there are a few other good episodes of Season 6; "Zod," "Arrow," "Noir..." but overall it was a terrible season. You're right to guess that I hated both because of the choices made with the characters (which were, IMO, flat-out character assassination), but also because Clexana was the worst and most damaging thing ever to this series, and "Promise" is all about that triangle.


I think that a mayor difference between Buffy and Smallville is that even when the decline in quality is noticeable in both shows, Buffy still had some great character development and great writing, "Once More With Feeling", "Conversations With Dead People", "Dead Things" at the other hand Smallville's last great episode was season's 5 "Hidden".


I have to admit even in the worst episodes of Buffy, there were lines that at least made me chuckle. Not so for "Smallville."


Hey, I wont defend "Chosen" while I like it, it is very flawed, a little messy and the message while clear, is overshadowed by Spike's arc. Can't dissagree with you.

Thank you. :)




I'm sure Elvis is going to jump to answer this. I agree Buffy was always about friendship and team work. That is what made Buffy a great slayer and that is why it was disappointing seeing the series ending with Buffy making harsh decisions alone (Dirty Girls) and the friends not trusting each other, even kicking her out of her home (Empty Places).

YES! The trust and teamwork between the Scoobies was my favorite part of the show. IMO, "Chosen" doesn't demonstrate that; besides the cute little scene between the Core Four in the high school before they go off to battle, the episode really isn't about them. It's more about Spike, the character who, IMO, had the biggest effect on destroying the team's unity. He finally did succeed at what he tried to do in "The Yoko Factor;" he convinced Buffy that she couldn't relate to her friends. Worse, he convinced her that he was the only one she could trust! This is a running theme throughout all Season 6 and 7, and it makes his heroic sacrifice at the end sting all the more. By "Chosen," I think it was clear that the writers cared more about Spike then any other character. And that's why he got to be the one to save the world in the end, and not Buffy. Spike may have sacrificed himself for the world, but Joss sacrificed the show for him.

[Vergon6]

YES! The trust and teamwork between the Scoobies was my favorite part of the show. IMO, "Chosen" doesn't demonstrate that; besides the cute little scene between the Core Four in the high school before they go off to battle, the episode really isn't about them. It's more about Spike, the character who, IMO, had the biggest effect on destroying the team's unity. He finally did succeed at what he tried to do in "The Yoko Factor;" he convinced Buffy that she couldn't relate to her friends. Worse, he convinced her that he was the only one she could trust! This is a running theme throughout all Season 6 and 7, and it makes his heroic sacrifice at the end sting all the more. By "Chosen," I think it was clear that the writers cared more about Spike then any other character. And that's why he got to be the one to save the world in the end, and not Buffy. Spike may have sacrificed himself for the world, but Joss sacrificed the show for him.
I imagine you were quite happy when Spike was relegated to saving a baby in a ridiculous looking cloak in "Not Fade Away" ;)

[Fat Elvis 007]

I imagine you were quite happy when Spike was relegated to saving a baby in a ridiculous looking cloak in "Not Fade Away" ;)

You know me all too well. :lol: I was very worried that the finale would end with Spike Shanshuing or something right after saving everybody...I breathed a sigh of relief after the episode that that didn't happen. He was a little too focused on in the first half of the season, but I grew to like him in a more supportive role in the latter half (which was better in a great many ways).

[Vergon6]

You know me all too well. :lol: I was very worried that the finale would end with Spike Shanshuing or something right after saving everybody...I breathed a sigh of relief after the episode that that didn't happen. He was a little too focused on in the first half of the season, but I grew to like him in a more supportive role in the latter half (which was better in a great many ways).
Haha. What it was "Soul Purpose" where Spike beat Angel and then he picked up the alleged cup of perpetual torment, and then he takes a sip and says "It's Mountain Dew" :rotfl:

[Fat Elvis 007]

Haha. What it was "Soul Purpose" where Spike beat Angel and then he picked up the alleged cup of perpetual torment, and then he takes a sip and says "It's Mountain Dew" :rotfl:

That was pretty funny. :lol: I haven't seen Season 5 in forever.

[Vergon6]

That was pretty funny. :lol: I haven't seen Season 5 in forever.Well I have it on DVD and TNT shows Angel in the middle of the night, so I have had time to remind myself. One thing I found was they drew out the Spike is a ghost thing a little too long. It was good that in "Damage" that she showed there were negative effects of the magic that was used for in "Chosen", just as there always is.

But anyways, I suppose we should be discussing this in the Angel thread.

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----

Sorry my mistake "Destiny" was the episode with that in it. "Soul Purpose" was with Angel's hallucinations that Spike actually became a 'real boy' as a result.

[CallMeClark]

I still disagree, but we can agree to disagree I guess.

Because Buffy's plan in season 6 also "failed." Oh well.

----- Added 4 Minutes later -----


I'm sure Elvis is going to jump to answer this. I agree Buffy was always about friendship and team work. That is what made Buffy a great slayer and that is why it was disappointing seeing the series ending with Buffy making harsh decisions alone (Dirty Girls) and the friends not trusting each other, even kicking her out of her home (Empty Places).
But isn't another key theme realization and forgiveness? And friendship isn't always a cake walk. Xander forgave Buffy for sleeping with Spike, both Buffy and Xander forgive Willow for what happened in season 6, Buffy forgives Angel, the realization that Spike has planted seeds of doubt in an episode of season 4 also tested their friendship. So many examples.

[Fat Elvis 007]

Well I have it on DVD and TNT shows Angel in the middle of the night, so I have had time to remind myself. One thing I found was they drew out the Spike is a ghost thing a little too long. It was good that in "Damage" that she showed there were negative effects of the magic that was used for in "Chosen", just as there always is.

But anyways, I suppose we should be discussing this in the Angel thread.


Agreed on all acounts.


Sorry my mistake "Destiny" was the episode with that in it. "Soul Purpose" was with Angel's hallucinations that Spike actually became a 'real boy' as a result.

Ah, I see. I wouldn't have caught that.

----- Added 4 Minutes later -----


I still disagree, but we can agree to disagree I guess.

Because Buffy's plan in season 6 also "failed." Oh well.

----- Added 4 Minutes later -----

But again, the fact that it was the final episode of the show is what makes Buffy's failed plan so offensive to me. It's her last hurrah; it should be her finest hour. But it was anything but.



But isn't another key theme realization and forgiveness? And friendship isn't always a cake walk. Xander forgave Buffy for sleeping with Spike, both Buffy and Xander forgive Willow for what happened in season 6, Buffy forgives Angel, the realization that Spike has planted seeds of doubt in an episode of season 4 also tested their friendship. So many examples.

Yes, but IMO, Buffy and the gang had made the mistake of breaking apart and not being there for one another too many times by Season 7. So to see the same old "Scoobs drift apart only to reunite in the end" storyline yet again was just tiresome and made them all look like they were incapable of learning anything. And now Joss is doing it again in Season 8. I guess he's the one who can't learn from his mistakes. He's a great storyteller when he has a fresh new idea, but it seems after a while he just gets bored with the material and doesn't have any new ideas for it. This was definitely the case with Buffy, and to a lesser degree, Angel.

[cayayofm]

But isn't another key theme realization and forgiveness? And friendship isn't always a cake walk. Xander forgave Buffy for sleeping with Spike, both Buffy and Xander forgive Willow for what happened in season 6, Buffy forgives Angel, the realization that Spike has planted seeds of doubt in an episode of season 4 also tested their friendship. So many examples.

True, but the thing is that we did not got this in season 7. Buffy and Willow almost don't have any scenes alone in the season, they never bond or discuss Buffy sleeping with Spike or Willow almost destroying the world. And after Buffy is kicked out we never have a real reconciliation scene, only the scene in "Chosen" which it was written to mirror the one in the pilot more than a real moment between long friends.

I believe that Buffy and Willow's friendship is very damage after Willow brought Buffy back from the death and later by trying to destroy the world. While I understand their distance, still it was a little disappointing see once so strong friendship broken. If you notice in the season Buffy really gets closer with Xander, she talks with him, jokes with him and talks with him about things that she only talked with Willow before.

[Fat Elvis 007]

True, but the thing is that we did not got this in season 7. Buffy and Willow almost don't have any scenes alone in the season, they never bond or discuss Buffy sleeping with Spike or Willow almost destroying the world. And after Buffy is kicked out we never have a real reconciliation scene, only the scene in "Chosen" which it was written to mirror the one in the pilot more than a real moment between long friends.

Yeah, that's why their pilot-mirroring scene doesn't really work all that well for me. It's not genuine. It feels amazingly forced. Because they haven't been those people in a very long time. Now, I would love for them to become those people again; but this scene was completely unearned.

One of my favorite scenes from S7 was the Buffy/Willow one at the end of "Same Time, Same Place." The last time I remember seeing them as real friends.


I believe that Buffy and Willow's friendship is very damage after Willow brought Buffy back from the death and later by trying to destroy the world. While I understand their distance, still it was a little disappointing see once so strong friendship broken. If you notice in the season Buffy really gets closer with Xander, she talks with him, jokes with him and talks with him about things that she only talked with Willow before.

I do like the B/X closeness this season. I'm gonna voice an unpopular opinion and say I really hope they get together in the comics. (Seriously, it should have been him instead of Satsu. He's the only man in a castle full of women, and lonely, horny Buffy still goes after someone else?! ) SMG has always advocated Bander, and I agree with her.

[slayer]

excuse me for butting in. but i honestly feel that out of buffy, xander and willow - willow is by far the most distant- she has a completely different life. not only does her sexuality and her relationships put her apart from the others, but her magic does too. she has more power and intellect than both buffy and xander - it puts her in another league (i mean to say college experiences, not that buffy and xander are stupid). she once claimed that she wanted to stay in sunnydale with buffy to fight the forces of darkness, but she has yet to truly understand what exactly that entails. it's about sacrifice, embracing death and being truly alone. this is why buffy, the slayer is always alone.

so yes, i agree that joss never lets the three of them truly reconcile. but i don't think i would be okay with it if he did. if i had to describe buffy in one word it would be lonely, because it's what she will forever be. willow and buffy can never be as close as you want them to be because willow can't lose the ones she loves - especially after what happened to tara. she realizes that buffy is shrouded in death and that the closer she is to buffy, the better chance there is that something unfortunate will occur to herself, kennedy, etc.

>>>season 7 pissed me off for one reason. being that xander, willow, giles, dawn and especially anya (the potentials too) thought they had any right to question buffy's qualities as a leader. (sorry she didn't learn your frakking name! she was a little busy trying to save the world!!) she does exactly what she has to for the greater good, not b/c she likes what she does, not b/c she wants to, but b/c she has the power to do so and she chose to put her strength to use by protecting the world from the horrors she had to face everyday. she fought and she sacrificed her life, so that everyone else could have one. she fights, so that no one else has too.

----- Added 13 Minutes later -----

buffy is completely taken for granted in the series. no one understands her completely, but spike comes the closest b/c he listens and she's willing to share. xander's right, buffy doesn't let them in - but it's b/c they couldn't understand, not that they don't want to.

[Fat Elvis 007]

excuse me for butting in. but i honestly feel that out of buffy, xander and willow - willow is by far the most distant- she has a completely different life. not only does her sexuality and her relationships put her apart from the others, but her magic does too. she has more power and intellect than both buffy and xander - it puts her in another league (i mean to say college experiences, not that buffy and xander are stupid). she once claimed that she wanted to stay in sunnydale with buffy to fight the forces of darkness, but she has yet to truly understand what exactly that entails. it's about sacrifice, embracing death and being truly alone. this is why buffy, the slayer is always alone.

Interesting analysis. I do think Willow has a bit of a superiority complex, much like Buffy; and her need to label herself and get away from her past as a geek has distanced herself from her friends a bit. If you'll notice in Season 3, Willow is really the only one of BWX who seems to talk to people outside of the Core Gang on a semi-regular basis. A strange thing for the nerdiest girl in school. She wants to help and values Buffy as her best friend, but she also wants to live her own life beyond being Buffy's sidekick. But she is a lot like Buffy in that she always thinks that no one can understand her pain or her decisions.

However, I would say throughout most of the series, Xander was by far the most distant. Not by choice, but because Giles, Buffy and Willow just didn't seem interested in his life at all. Many fans feel Xander, because he has no powers, is the most boring character; I disagree. I think he was just given the short shrift by the writers, and thus, by the other characters as well. Post-Season 3, it doesn't seem like the others even care about him all that much. Whenever his pain is brought up, it's usually met with a joke or an eyeroll. And yes, Xander usually brings it up in the context of a self-deprecating joke; but I think it was their duty as friends to help him out a little bit more and show an interest. He's a character that could have gotten more serious storylines if he were allowed to. He had serious issues, problem was the show treated them like a joke. Just contrast his storyline in S4 with Buffy's in S6. Both felt they had no direction in life, went through bad jobs, felt distanced from their friends, and had sex with remorseless killers. But Xander's was all giggles, while Buffy's was supposed to be a deep study of human darkness. The poor guy wasn't even given a real reaction to finding out his best friend and former make-out partner had become a lesbian! That was an unforgivable oversight, and it was the first moment where I started to wonder if he and Willow were still friends.


so yes, i agree that joss never lets the three of them truly reconcile. but i don't think i would be okay with it if he did. if i had to describe buffy in one word it would be lonely, because it's what she will forever be. willow and buffy can never be as close as you want them to be because willow can't lose the ones she loves - especially after what happened to tara. she realizes that buffy is shrouded in death and that the closer she is to buffy, the better chance there is that something unfortunate will occur to herself, kennedy, etc.

IMO, the message of the first four seasons is that Buffy does need to open up to her friends, that she gets her strength from them, that she is never alone. It's what makes her the best Slayer to ever live. This is made clear in almost every episode from "Welcome to the Hellmouth" to "Restless." That is what I loved the show for, and that is the message that I believe to be true. It's no coincidence that Buffy's life started to suck more and more after she embraced the side of her that said, "Your friends don't understand you, don't trust them." Her life was better and she was a happier person when the Core Four were close. It's not that Buffy was forced to be alone; she chose to be. And that choice was clearly the wrong one.


>>>season 7 pissed me off for one reason. being that xander, willow, giles, dawn and especially anya (the potentials too) thought they had any right to question buffy's qualities as a leader.

What pissed me off is that Buffy thought she had any right to ignore their questions and act like Quentin Travers with a sex change. The "I tell, you don't ask" method was yet another thing that was shown to be bad, bad, bad in the first few seasons but was promoted in the later years. Buffy used to rebel against that kind of leadership all the time, and now that she's in power she decides to adopt the same General mentality? That doesn't make any sense. Instead of the moral being "Question authority" it became "Buffy is always right," and that makes for an annoying, self-righteous character.


(sorry she didn't learn your frakking name! she was a little busy trying to save the world!!)

Buffy in "The Gift" felt the world wasn't worth saving if you lose your humanity. It's why she couldn't kill Dawn then. In S7, she says she would now. By this point Buffy has lost all sense of right and wrong. She is merely interested in survival, numbers, and "the greater good," without caring about the methods or the feelings of the people involved. That's why she doesn't bother to learn the names of the girls under her care; she doesn't see people as real human beings anymore, she sees them like the Initiative saw their soldiers. I'd call her a robot, but the robot version of Buffy was far more humane.


buffy is completely taken for granted in the series. no one understands her completely, but spike comes the closest b/c he listens and she's willing to share. xander's right, buffy doesn't let them in - but it's b/c they couldn't understand, not that they don't want to.

Oy. They did plenty of understanding in the first few seasons. They were the ones who comforted her and helped her while Spike was still trying to kill them. Spike understood the dark side of Buffy, and he exploited that for sex and later for other favors. But the only reason she opened up to him was because she didn't care about him. She didn't open up to her friends because she didn't want to hurt them. Yes, by Season 6, Xander probably couldn't understand; but that's because Buffy let herself get so messed up, not because she's the Slayer. Willow would have understood completely, given her own destructive behavior that season. It was Buffy's behavior that caused problems, not her destiny.

Just another example of the writers pimping Spike at the expense of the other characters. The Scoobies, once a strong, tight, fun group, had become so distant that only a remorseless killer can understand Buffy. Boo hoo. Strength from your friends? No, Buffy, that strength comes from Spike's abs!

[slayfan]

While I agree that there were definate holes in Buffy's plan and that it could have been put together much better than it was I do have to say that I liked the end. I was so afraid that Buffy would get killed, again, that just to have her survive releived me and I loooved that they changed the whole slayer lore and made an army of slayers. I loved what they were saying about any girl with the potential to be a slayer now would be. To me that saved the whole end. I do feel like chosen wasn't thought out enough and built to the way that other season finale's were. To me they hadn't really resolved the issues between the core 4 (the way they had done in the past) enough before they tackled the final battle. That said, I love the little moment in the school between them and Giles' line that the world is doomed. It (as it was probably meant to) took me right back to the beginning and brought out all those old feelings of hope and love that I had for these characters. Mostly I was just happy that it ended in such a way that there was sooo much hope for the future. The end of them standing there looking at the big pit that used to be Sunnydale (and their hell) they came together in a way that made me beleive that everything would now be okay. It even still gives me hope for these characters all these years later and that to me is what a series finale should do.

Now as for the finale of Angel, the thing that killed it for me was to have Wes killed. We had already lost Cordy (and Doyle) and now to loose Wes that left Angel as the only original character of the show. I had come to love Wes waaaay too much to have him end so suddenly and I just can't seem to forgive that. He should have been standing at Angel's side going into that final battle. Maybe that's why I have all seven season's of Buffy on DVD but only the first one of Angel, because Buffy gives me hope and I still haven't quite accepted the end of Angel.

Now here is a question that has been floating around in my mind. I think it's pretty obvious from these threads that most people think season 6 of Buffy is the worst and to me I didn't like seson 4 of Angel as much so how much was Joss really involved with these two shows when not only did he have them on his plate but Firefly as well (which is a show I have just found and completely love). So did the shows stay as true to his vision or did they maybe go off course a little in which he then had to do some repair work to them???? I have never read anything on this topic and am interested in what other people think.

**Side note - I wrote this without having read anything from this page so I just want to add that the reason I loved the first half of the series more than the last half was because it showed us that Buffy was a stronger slayer and person when she was connected to her friends. They even show us in 'the wish' what Buffy would have been like without those ties and what is sad is that she pretty much ends up as that woman anyway. I would have liked to see more of that connection with her friends towards the end instead of that damn 'empty places' that angers me beyond all reason.

[Fat Elvis 007]

While I agree that there were definate holes in Buffy's plan and that it could have been put together much better than it was I do have to say that I liked the end. I was so afraid that Buffy would get killed, again, that just to have her survive releived me and I loooved that they changed the whole slayer lore and made an army of slayers. I loved what they were saying about any girl with the potential to be a slayer now would be. To me that saved the whole end. I do feel like chosen wasn't thought out enough and built to the way that other season finale's were. To me they hadn't really resolved the issues between the core 4 (the way they had done in the past) enough before they tackled the final battle. That said, I love the little moment in the school between them and Giles' line that the world is doomed. It (as it was probably meant to) took me right back to the beginning and brought out all those old feelings of hope and love that I had for these characters. Mostly I was just happy that it ended in such a way that there was sooo much hope for the future. The end of them standing there looking at the big pit that used to be Sunnydale (and their hell) they came together in a way that made me beleive that everything would now be okay. It even still gives me hope for these characters all these years later and that to me is what a series finale should do.

Now as for the finale of Angel, the thing that killed it for me was to have Wes killed. We had already lost Cordy (and Doyle) and now to loose Wes that left Angel as the only original character of the show. I had come to love Wes waaaay too much to have him end so suddenly and I just can't seem to forgive that. He should have been standing at Angel's side going into that final battle. Maybe that's why I have all seven season's of Buffy on DVD but only the first one of Angel, because Buffy gives me hope and I still haven't quite accepted the end of Angel.


I get this. I don't like that practically every human who has ever helped Angel wound up dead either. Wesley did have a powerful death scene, but I would have kept him alive. (But then, I wouldn't have killed Fred or Cordy either. I'm a big softy that way.)


Now here is a question that has been floating around in my mind. I think it's pretty obvious from these threads that most people think season 6 of Buffy is the worst and to me I didn't like seson 4 of Angel as much so how much was Joss really involved with these two shows when not only did he have them on his plate but Firefly as well (which is a show I have just found and completely love). So did the shows stay as true to his vision or did they maybe go off course a little in which he then had to do some repair work to them???? I have never read anything on this topic and am interested in what other people think.

I'm pretty sure in Season 6 Joss pretty much handed the reigns over to Marti Noxon, Mistress of Pain.

As for Angel, I think he spent a little more time on that than Buffy, but that's just speculation. Though it had flaws, it was just planned a lot better and was better written than either Buffy S6 or 7, but that could of course have more to do with the other writers like Tim Minear. At the time Joss was working on three different shows, and I guess something had to suffer. I adore Firefly and like Angel S4, but I don't think I'll ever consider it a fair trade that the final two seasons of Buffy were so awful.


**Side note - I wrote this without having read anything from this page so I just want to add that the reason I loved the first half of the series more than the last half was because it showed us that Buffy was a stronger slayer and person when she was connected to her friends. They even show us in 'the wish' what Buffy would have been like without those ties and what is sad is that she pretty much ends up as that woman anyway. I would have liked to see more of that connection with her friends towards the end instead of that damn 'empty places' that angers me beyond all reason.

Exactly. :)

[cayayofm]

Now here is a question that has been floating around in my mind. I think it's pretty obvious from these threads that most people think season 6 of Buffy is the worst and to me I didn't like seson 4 of Angel as much so how much was Joss really involved with these two shows when not only did he have them on his plate but Firefly as well (which is a show I have just found and completely love). So did the shows stay as true to his vision or did they maybe go off course a little in which he then had to do some repair work to them???? I have never read anything on this topic and am interested in what other people think.


I believe that the last two seasons decline in quality has to do with Joss having to much on his plate. I think the weakest season is season 6, and his lack of involvement in shown by the fact the he only wrote one episode. By this time he was writing the pilot, casting and everything related to Firefly. He said how sometimes he would not see things until they aired. By season 7 he said he wanted to commit a little more, but however, he had three shows on the air and that is simply too much. I resent Joss reduced involvement in the latter seasons and at the end all his shows suffered, because season 4 of Angel is as flawed as season 7 Buffy. He should had waited a year to launch Firefly.

----- Added 7 Minutes later -----



One of my favorite scenes from S7 was the Buffy/Willow one at the end of "Same Time, Same Place." The last time I remember seeing them as real friends.


One of my all time favorites scene between the two. A genuine Buffy confessing how she thought Willow may be killing and sharing her strength to heal Willow. Also, is a little foreshadowing of the same thing Buffy will do in "Chosen" in a bigger scale.

----- Added 9 Minutes later -----


willow and buffy can never be as close as you want them to be because willow can't lose the ones she loves - especially after what happened to tara. she realizes that buffy is shrouded in death and that the closer she is to buffy, the better chance there is that something unfortunate will occur to herself, kennedy, etc.



Interesting, an another reason for their distance after season 6.

[CallMeClark]

excuse me for butting in. but i honestly feel that out of buffy, xander and willow - willow is by far the most distant- she has a completely different life. not only does her sexuality and her relationships put her apart from the others, but her magic does too. she has more power and intellect than both buffy and xander - it puts her in another league (i mean to say college experiences, not that buffy and xander are stupid). she once claimed that she wanted to stay in sunnydale with buffy to fight the forces of darkness, but she has yet to truly understand what exactly that entails. it's about sacrifice, embracing death and being truly alone. this is why buffy, the slayer is always alone.

so yes, i agree that joss never lets the three of them truly reconcile. but i don't think i would be okay with it if he did. if i had to describe buffy in one word it would be lonely, because it's what she will forever be. willow and buffy can never be as close as you want them to be because willow can't lose the ones she loves - especially after what happened to tara. she realizes that buffy is shrouded in death and that the closer she is to buffy, the better chance there is that something unfortunate will occur to herself, kennedy, etc.

>>>season 7 pissed me off for one reason. being that xander, willow, giles, dawn and especially anya (the potentials too) thought they had any right to question buffy's qualities as a leader. (sorry she didn't learn your frakking name! she was a little busy trying to save the world!!) she does exactly what she has to for the greater good, not b/c she likes what she does, not b/c she wants to, but b/c she has the power to do so and she chose to put her strength to use by protecting the world from the horrors she had to face everyday. she fought and she sacrificed her life, so that everyone else could have one. she fights, so that no one else has too.

----- Added 13 Minutes later -----

buffy is completely taken for granted in the series. no one understands her completely, but spike comes the closest b/c he listens and she's willing to share. xander's right, buffy doesn't let them in - but it's b/c they couldn't understand, not that they don't want to.
I could not agree more! Very nicely put!

[Fat Elvis 007]

One of my all time favorites scene between the two. A genuine Buffy confessing how she thought Willow may be killing and sharing her strength to heal Willow. Also, is a little foreshadowing of the same thing Buffy will do in "Chosen" in a bigger scale.

Wow, I never thought of that. That adds yet another layer to an already fantastic scene.

[cayayofm]

Wow, I never thought of that. That adds yet another layer to an already fantastic scene.


Yeah, if you look closely at the first couple of episodes there is a lot of foreshadowing. In "Help" they foreshadow Buffy telling Spike that she love him, Buffy going to the hellmouth and making a difference in the world, all things that happen in "Chosen". It seemed like Joss knew exactly were he was going at the end of the series really early into the season, which makes the rushed, inconsistent, and deux-machina finale disappointing.

[slayer]

Interesting analysis. I do think Willow has a bit of a superiority complex, much like Buffy; and her need to label herself and get away from her past as a geek has distanced herself from her friends a bit. If you'll notice in Season 3, Willow is really the only one of BWX who seems to talk to people outside of the Core Gang on a semi-regular basis. A strange thing for the nerdiest girl in school. She wants to help and values Buffy as her best friend, but she also wants to live her own life beyond being Buffy's sidekick. But she is a lot like Buffy in that she always thinks that no one can understand her pain or her decisions. exactly.


However, I would say throughout most of the series, Xander was by far the most distant. Not by choice, but because Giles, Buffy and Willow just didn't seem interested in his life at all. Many fans feel Xander, because he has no powers, is the most boring character; I disagree. I think he was just given the short shrift by the writers, and thus, by the other characters as well. Post-Season 3, it doesn't seem like the others even care about him all that much. Whenever his pain is brought up, it's usually met with a joke or an eyeroll. And yes, Xander usually brings it up in the context of a self-deprecating joke; but I think it was their duty as friends to help him out a little bit more and show an interest. He's a character that could have gotten more serious storylines if he were allowed to. He had serious issues, problem was the show treated them like a joke. Just contrast his storyline in S4 with Buffy's in S6. Both felt they had no direction in life, went through bad jobs, felt distanced from their friends, and had sex with remorseless killers. But Xander's was all giggles, while Buffy's was supposed to be a deep study of human darkness. The poor guy wasn't even given a real reaction to finding out his best friend and former make-out partner had become a lesbian! That was an unforgivable oversight, and it was the first moment where I started to wonder if he and Willow were still friends.

i see what you mean about xander, he definitely seems to be undervalued in the series and among his friends. i know he can be viewed as the most distant - but that wasn't by choice, while willow purposely chose to distance herself from her friends. yes, xander wasn't allowed to be the one to grow, but we can clearly see he did nonetheless. he was always treated right by the writers. we saw his relationships, just as with buffy and willow, and we saw his attributes as the comic relief and heart of the series. the show is from buffy's p.o.v, so it doesn't bother me that we didn't see his reaction to willow's lesbianism (oh my, we really missed what his role in the series is all about). he recieved as much screen time as was necessary. when the make xander the carpenter i'll be sure to watch. don't get me wrong, i love xander, but he was the most upfront about every aspect of his life - well, more than anyone else. he's the normal guy, the most predictable, the most lovable...he's the original comic relief.


IMO, the message of the first four seasons is that Buffy does need to open up to her friends, that she gets her strength from them, that she is never alone. It's what makes her the best Slayer to ever live. This is made clear in almost every episode from "Welcome to the Hellmouth" to "Restless." That is what I loved the show for, and that is the message that I believe to be true. It's no coincidence that Buffy's life started to suck more and more after she embraced the side of her that said, "Your friends don't understand you, don't trust them." Her life was better and she was a happier person when the Core Four were close. It's not that Buffy was forced to be alone; she chose to be. And that choice was clearly the wrong one.

>>>>the message of buffy has always been "solitude", "isolation" and "loneliness". she is always alone! that was the point of the whole series and that is why it ended on such a perfect note. what makes her a better slayer than all the others is that her watcher and her friends are there to give her strength and support when she needs it. what has always been made clear is that she is "one girl in all the world", "she alone will stand against the vampires, the demons, and the forces of darkness". the message that you believed to be so true and why you loved the show are incompatible with what joss was writing about and that is probably the reason you found her story becoming less desirable. chose to be alone!? no way, buffy craved to be understood...she was emotionally isolated and only wished that someone would understand that (i.e. angel who had to strive for redemption, alone in the darkness, no allies).


What pissed me off is that Buffy thought she had any right to ignore their questions and act like Quentin Travers with a sex change. The "I tell, you don't ask" method was yet another thing that was shown to be bad, bad, bad in the first few seasons but was promoted in the later years. Buffy used to rebel against that kind of leadership all the time, and now that she's in power she decides to adopt the same General mentality? That doesn't make any sense. Instead of the moral being "Question authority" it became "Buffy is always right," and that makes for an annoying, self-righteous character.

no, buffy didn't like being tested and used - being pushed around by a bunch of silly old men, while people she cared about were being held up in inescapable houses - especially when the council new very well was she was capable of. self righteous? "i am the law"...well yeah - she has jurisdiction over all things mystical, it's in her job description...is she supposed to apologize for being chosen? like she wanted to live a life of eternal solitude! she had to make all the hard choices that no one else could make and even if they could, they had no right.


Buffy in "The Gift" felt the world wasn't worth saving if you lose your humanity. It's why she couldn't kill Dawn then. In S7, she says she would now. By this point Buffy has lost all sense of right and wrong. She is merely interested in survival, numbers, and "the greater good," without caring about the methods or the feelings of the people involved. That's why she doesn't bother to learn the names of the girls under her care; she doesn't see people as real human beings anymore, she sees them like the Initiative saw their soldiers. I'd call her a robot, but the robot version of Buffy was far more humane.

:eek: wow, haha. are you even a buffy fan? like what is this...:lol: sorry i get a little excited...
buffybot is more humane? please...omg. she never lost sight of right and wrong, she just knows what she has to do in order to save the world. the feelings of the people involved? well cry me a river!! oh my, buffy doesn't know my name, what on earth will i do? frak that, she has better things to do, she keeps her mind on the big picture - saving the world, which yes, involves big numbers and the greater good. her methods have never been called into question and never should be. buffy is very just.


Oy. They did plenty of understanding in the first few seasons. They were the ones who comforted her and helped her while Spike was still trying to kill them. Spike understood the dark side of Buffy, and he exploited that for sex and later for other favors. But the only reason she opened up to him was because she didn't care about him. She didn't open up to her friends because she didn't want to hurt them. Yes, by Season 6, Xander probably couldn't understand; but that's because Buffy let herself get so messed up, not because she's the Slayer. Willow would have understood completely, given her own destructive behavior that season. It was Buffy's behavior that caused problems, not her destiny.

they understood as much as they could, but it was never enough. by season six? xander couldn't even understand buffy in season one and why she felt a connection to angel. willow would have understood? yes, she's more open minded and more understanding, but they shared nothing until willow lost control of her abilities - something buffy never did. she connected with spike, a true connection no matter how much she herself would deny it. she had to dig herself out of her grave and walk among the world in which she has left behind. this wasn't a "dark" side of buffy - it was the true buffy: in all her loneliness, isolation and solitude. it finally surfaced and no one could understand, no one could deal, but spike - that's where they started, b/c buffy saw a bit of herself in him.


Just another example of the writers pimping Spike at the expense of the other characters. The Scoobies, once a strong, tight, fun group, had become so distant that only a remorseless killer can understand Buffy. Boo hoo. Strength from your friends? No, Buffy, that strength comes from Spike's abs!

this is your opinion, i understand. but by golly i am flabbergasted. spike was not pimped out at the expense of other characters (example?). buffy's strength came from within, not from her friends and not from spike's abs...

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I could not agree more! Very nicely put!

thanks Jared, i notice our trend of often agreeing with one another ;)

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I do feel like chosen wasn't thought out enough and built to the way that other season finale's were. To me they hadn't really resolved the issues between the core 4 (the way they had done in the past) enough before they tackled the final battle.

i think season seven came together so perfectly - i wouldn't want it any other way. i know everyone feels differently about what the series was really about, but i personally felt that the show joss created was about buffy and her burdened lifestyle of always being alone. so when the show ended on a note where all the potentials were activated it was just perfect b/c buffy was no longer alone. the plot was resolved and joss had this vision and it was brilliant.

as for the core four. that was also completely alright by me. the fact is, in the end - they are always there for one another - they don't need to say sorry, they know it already. buffy didn't wait for everyone to apologize to her before she went to save faith and the potentials...she can understand where they were coming from, they hurt her yes, but it's sort of to be expected..they were scared and no one will understand b/c now no slayer will ever have to go through what buffy had to (presently anyhow).

[Fat Elvis 007]

exactly.



i see what you mean about xander, he definitely seems to be undervalued in the series and among his friends. i know he can be viewed as the most distant - but that wasn't by choice, while willow purposely chose to distance herself from her friends. yes, xander wasn't allowed to be the one to grow, but we can clearly see he did nonetheless. he was always treated right by the writers. we saw his relationships, just as with buffy and willow, and we saw his attributes as the comic relief and heart of the series. the show is from buffy's p.o.v, so it doesn't bother me that we didn't see his reaction to willow's lesbianism (oh my, we really missed what his role in the series is all about). he recieved as much screen time as was necessary. when the make xander the carpenter i'll be sure to watch. don't get me wrong, i love xander, but he was the most upfront about every aspect of his life - well, more than anyone else. he's the normal guy, the most predictable, the most lovable...he's the original comic relief.

I get your point of view on this, but his screentime really decreased after Season 2 and IMO it is very noticeable. I'm not saying Xander dealing with Willow's coming out was his main purpose on the show, but I think it was important to see his reaction. They were best friends long before they met Buffy. The show was never just from Buffy's perspective. Xander and Willow both had their own relationships that were sometimes focused on. The clothes fluke in Season 3 was all about Oz/Willow/Xander/Cordy. We don't even really get Buffy's perspective on the whole thing. So I don't think that's an excuse. The writers just weren't interested in writing for Xander as anything but comic relief in the later seasons.




>>>>the message of buffy has always been "solitude", "isolation" and "loneliness". she is always alone!

Then why did every season (except Season 2) of the first four end with her realizing she needed her friends?


that was the point of the whole series and that is why it ended on such a perfect note. what makes her a better slayer than all the others is that her watcher and her friends are there to give her strength and support when she needs it.

So Buffy just gets to decide when she needs them and when she doesn't? And they have no say in the matter? As we have seen many, many times on this show, that line of thinking always leads to disastrous results. She goes in alone to face the Master, and she would have died had Xander not come to her rescue. She chooses to leave at the end of Season 2, and winds up hurting everyone she loves and herself, but ultimately realizes she needs to go back home. She starts to bond more with Faith than with Willow and Xander--a guy dies and Faith spirals into evil. She abandons her friends in "The Yoko Factor," only to later realize that they are stronger together (they even share a body!) She decides she can't talk to her friends in Season 6, and ends up in an abusive relationship with a soulless killer, while her best friend develops an addiction and eventually tries to end the world.

The ONLY time Buffy deciding she doesn't need her friends isn't entirely portrayed as a bad thing is in Season 7. That's why it doesn't go with the message of the rest of the series, and that is why it's the worst season; even worse than Season 6.




what has always been made clear is that she is "one girl in all the world", "she alone will stand against the vampires, the demons, and the forces of darkness".

A philosophy she always rebelled against throughout the entire series. And she was portrayed as being right. From the contrast with her and the friendless Kendra in "What's My Line?" to the friendless WishVerse Buffy being killed by the Master for real, to Buffy telling the First Slayer in "Restless" that she is "not alone," that her friends give her strength.

Buffy: I walk. I talk. I shop. I sneeze. I'm gonna be a fireman when the floods roll back. There's trees in the desert since you moved out, and I don't sleep on a bed of bones. Now give me back my friends.

Primitive: No friends! Just the kill! We. Are. Alone!

Guess who wins the fight? BUFFY. Her speech is all about having humanity and not being a robotic soldier. (It's also a big part of her contrast with Riley earlier in the season.) Her outlook is clearly supported to be the right one.

Buffy rebels against the "one girl in all the world" philosophy even in the final episode. It's the First's quoting of that line that gives her the idea for the empowerment spell.



the message that you believed to be so true and why you loved the show are incompatible with what joss was writing about and that is probably the reason you found her story becoming less desirable.

No, it's not at all incompatible with what Joss was writing, at least not until Season 7. As all the examples I have cited show, the message was clearly that Buffy needed her friends, and she didn't just get to decided when she didn't need them. They were crucial to her survival ("Prophecy Girl"); they were a part of her ("Primeval").



chose to be alone!? no way, buffy craved to be understood...she was emotionally isolated and only wished that someone would understand that (i.e. angel who had to strive for redemption, alone in the darkness, no allies).

She craved to be understood, but she rarely ever sought out the opportunity to be in the later seasons. She made a choice not to share her pain with her friends. And while I get that she didn't want to burden them, it was still clearly shown to not be the right choice.




no, buffy didn't like being tested and used - being pushed around by a bunch of silly old men, while people she cared about were being held up in inescapable houses - especially when the council new very well was she was capable of. self righteous? "i am the law"...well yeah - she has jurisdiction over all things mystical, it's in her job description...is she supposed to apologize for being chosen? like she wanted to live a life of eternal solitude! she had to make all the hard choices that no one else could make and even if they could, they had no right.



:eek: wow, haha. are you even a buffy fan? like what is this...:lol: sorry i get a little excited...
buffybot is more humane? please...omg. she never lost sight of right and wrong, she just knows what she has to do in order to save the world. the feelings of the people involved? well cry me a river!! oh my, buffy doesn't know my name, what on earth will i do? frak that, she has better things to do, she keeps her mind on the big picture - saving the world, which yes, involves big numbers and the greater good. her methods have never been called into question and never should be. buffy is very just.


This? Is just scary. You are supporting tyranny. Why is it OK for Buffy to question authority, but not OK for us to question Buffy when she is the authority? That is insane troll logic. It's like when a revolutionary overthrows a dictator, only to become one himself. We cannot just put unquestioning faith into someone simply because they have more power. I'm not saying Buffy is an awful leader and should never be trusted, but she is human and does have flaws and make mistakes, as the show so wonderfully illustrated in the earlier seasons. She was never perfect and never blameless. And that's why I loved Buffy. If you loved Buffy because you think she was a tough, anti-social General who never made a bad choice in her life, than I just can't help you.

As for the "learning the potentials names" thing, again, that's about humanity. Buffy in Season 5 thought that holding onto your humanity was more important than just survival. I don't remember who said this, but I heard the other day a quote from some philosopher that said something to the effect of "It's not enough just to live; you have to have a reason to live." That's why Buffy says she won't kill Dawn in Season 5, and why she says if it came down to it, she would in Season 7. It's an interesting turn, but one that makes Buffy look weaker in Season 7 than she was in Season 5. Some may see it as strength, that she was doing what was "necessary;" but what is necessary isn't always right, IMO. As Buffy said to Kendra, "My emotions give me power; they're total assets." But Buffy in Season 7 was running on auto-pilot. She seemed to be over her depression at the beginning, but as the season went on, I think it became more and more clear that Buffy still didn't seem to have a reason to live. And I think that came as a big disappointment to a lot of fans after watching Season 6 and being promised a lighter, more Buffy-ish Buffy in S7. So to see Buffy not call on her emotions to make her decisions, instead relying on a military mentality that was so much about cold hard numbers that it would make Riley squirm, made her appear weaker to me.

Now, is Buffy not learning all the potentials' names some huge crime? No, but it is certainly one indication that Buffy has lost her humanity and compassion. She is still trying to save the world, because she knows it's the right thing to do; but does she really seem to have anything invested in it? Does it really seem like she cares about the people under her charge? She's trying to save and protect them, but has no empathy for them. The potentials should have been used as a mirror for Buffy. They all had this huge connection that should have been taken advantage of, but Buffy wasn't interested. Yes, she was busy; I don't care, because the old Buffy would have been interested in these girls and what they could have meant to her, and that Buffy's plans usually worked a lot better. And what with her becoming a guidance counselor at the beginning of the season, you'd think she would have been interested in making an emotional connection to these young girls, but instead her time there amounted to nothing.

I don't know, maybe this is what makes the look on Buffy's face after the battle in "Chosen" somewhat satisfying for me. She can now see ahead and see that there is something to live for. I just didn't really like that it took so long for her to get back to a place that she was very comfortably in in the first four-five seasons. And I certainly don't like the seemingly widespread idea that Buffy's attitude and behavior in Seasons 6 and 7 was OK. Understandable, maybe, but not something to aspire to.


they understood as much as they could, but it was never enough. by season six? xander couldn't even understand buffy in season one and why she felt a connection to angel.

I think Xander did understand it, he just didn't want to because of his jealousy and his (understandable) mistrust of Angel. And I think Buffy understood where he was coming from too. They did talk openly and honestly about this, but because Buffy and Xander both have big personalities (or at least they did before Marti Noxon gave them both personality-ectemies), it usually happened in the form of yelling.



willow would have understood? yes, she's more open minded and more understanding, but they shared nothing until willow lost control of her abilities - something buffy never did.

I don't get your point here. Willow tried to connect to Buffy way more than Buffy tried to connect to her before Magic!Crack happened. And while Buffy didn't lose control of her abilities (which, is that even possible for a Slayer? I don't even see how that would work), her life was still spinning out of control just like Willow's. Willow turned to "getting high" to deal with her pain, while Buffy turned to an abusive sexual relationship with a man she hated. Both were clear signs of addiction. So I don't see how you are trying to spin this as Buffy being superior to Willow, especially since Buffy didn't even 'fess up to shagging Spike while trying to help Willow overcome her own addiction.

Maybe if Buffy had confided in Willow earlier in the season, neither girl would have felt alone and weak enough to get caught up in their respective addictions.


she connected with spike, a true connection no matter how much she herself would deny it. she had to dig herself out of her grave and walk among the world in which she has left behind. this wasn't a "dark" side of buffy - it was the true buffy: in all her loneliness, isolation and solitude.

Even if it is her "true" side, which I don't believe, how can you say it isn't also a dark side? Are loneliness, isolation and solitude not dark things? Is screwing a soulless monster just to feel not dark?


it finally surfaced and no one could understand, no one could deal, but spike - that's where they started, b/c buffy saw a bit of herself in him.

Yes, Buffy saw a part of herself in Spike. But it was a part she hated, and a part the audience was supposed to hate too. It was dysfunctional, it was unhealthy, it was sick, it was weak. It turned our strong female heroine into a girl who couldn't resist the sexual allure of an evil man who had killed and raped girls for hundreds of years. If that's the Buffy that you enjoy, than I just don't know what to say.




this is your opinion, i understand. but by golly i am flabbergasted. spike was not pimped out at the expense of other characters (example?).

Wow, you didn't already see my other examples? Having Spike be the only one who understands Buffy is pimping out Spike at the expense of the other characters. Having him save the world in the end instead of Buffy is pimping out Spike at the expense of the other characters. Having Spike have more screentime than characters who have been there longer is pimping out Spike to the expense of other characters. There are examples of this kind of thing in every episode in Season 6 and 7.



i think season seven came together so perfectly - i wouldn't want it any other way. i know everyone feels differently about what the series was really about, but i personally felt that the show joss created was about buffy and her burdened lifestyle of always being alone. so when the show ended on a note where all the potentials were activated it was just perfect b/c buffy was no longer alone. the plot was resolved and joss had this vision and it was brilliant.

Buffy wasn't alone even before that, if we are supposed to believe what she says in "Restless" and so many other episodes from the first few seasons. And that's the worst crime of the final two; they've actually succeeded in making fans forget the past, in accepting some corrupted, twisted version of who and what Buffy really is.


as for the core four. that was also completely alright by me. the fact is, in the end - they are always there for one another -

Except when they aren't there for one another, which according to you Buffy gets to decide.

The fact is, if Buffy is destined to be alone just like every other Slayer, then there is just nothing unique about her compared to the rest. Buffy's love for her friends was what set her apart and made her better, and she was always weaker when she turned away from them.

[slayfan]

Wow there is some great discussions going on here!!! I just want to throw in my two cents on season seven by saying that although it's not at the top of my list of favorite seasons I did really like it and have often referred to it while in discussion about the final seasons of other shows. What I liked about it was that from the first ep "Lessons" all the way through to "Chosen" you could tell that this was the final season and that it was building to something big. Was the season perfect, no, at least not in my opinion, but it did have a lot going for it. I know I was pumped every week waiting for it to start and had that adrenaline rush afterwords that I haven't really found since the show ended.

I loved the beginning of the season when it seemed that Buffy was getting back to her former self and the gang were all re-connecting. I also understood the need to go somewhat darker as they built towards the end, I just wish that there had been a little less lonely, empty, betrayed Buffy (again I mention my anger at "empty places" where not one of her friends stood up for her or even tried to understand) and more empowered, strong, iconic Buffy. I guess I really just needed some sort of closure from the whole kicking her out of her own house thing before the big plan and the big fight.

I do have to agree with Fat Elvis 007, that I think the main thing that the show always tried to tell us was that Buffy was stronger with her friends and that she didn't have to be alone. I know that there is a part of her that her friends will never be able to completly understand but in the past their love and friendship were enough for Buffy to battle that darkness within herself. But I also think this isn't just about her, they needed her just as much. She wasn't the only one who spiraled out of control in season six when they withdrew emotionally from each other. There was Willows Crack/Magic and Xander leaving Anya at the alter. I think that they needed her just as much as she needed them and I would have liked to see a little more of that before the show ended for good.

As for Buffy's relationship with Spike, I liked it far better in season 7 when at least he had a soul. I liked Spike right from season 2 but I always knew that he was evil. Yes he was funny and had an obsession with Buffy that I for some strange reason I found endearing in season five. I guess I felt like he was earning a place in the scoobies with his protecion of Dawn in the beginning of season six but it always bothered me that he was supposed to be souless, which we were told in the very beginning meant he was evil. I never really got on board with Spuffy because of this fact. If they had wanted to make Spike a real love interest they should have given him a soul instead of a chip. At least in 7 he had the damn thing so I felt that for the first time his feelings for her were real. (But I never felt like he was the ultimate one for her)

Okay now I'm rambling so I hope this made some sorta sense. I just want to make one more point about what I think the show was all about. I think the show was less about one girl fighting the forces of evil and more about the hope of surviving said forcesand the darkness they bring, and thus it was about hope. At least that's the way I always saw it and this was just one of the many, many reasons I loved this show.

[Fat Elvis 007]

Wow there is some great discussions going on here!!! I just want to throw in my two cents on season seven by saying that although it's not at the top of my list of favorite seasons I did really like it and have often referred to it while in discussion about the final seasons of other shows. What I liked about it was that from the first ep "Lessons" all the way through to "Chosen" you could tell that this was the final season and that it was building to something big. Was the season perfect, no, at least not in my opinion, but it did have a lot going for it. I know I was pumped every week waiting for it to start and had that adrenaline rush afterwords that I haven't really found since the show ended.

I loved the beginning of the season when it seemed that Buffy was getting back to her former self and the gang were all re-connecting. I also understood the need to go somewhat darker as they built towards the end, I just wish that there had been a little less lonely, empty, betrayed Buffy (again I mention my anger at "empty places" where not one of her friends stood up for her or even tried to understand) and more empowered, strong, iconic Buffy. I guess I really just needed some sort of closure from the whole kicking her out of her own house thing before the big plan and the big fight.

I do have to agree with Fat Elvis 007, that I think the main thing that the show always tried to tell us was that Buffy was stronger with her friends and that she didn't have to be alone. I know that there is a part of her that her friends will never be able to completly understand but in the past their love and friendship were enough for Buffy to battle that darkness within herself. But I also think this isn't just about her, they needed her just as much. She wasn't the only one who spiraled out of control in season six when they withdrew emotionally from each other. There was Willows Crack/Magic and Xander leaving Anya at the alter. I think that they needed her just as much as she needed them and I would have liked to see a little more of that before the show ended for good.

As for Buffy's relationship with Spike, I liked it far better in season 7 when at least he had a soul. I liked Spike right from season 2 but I always knew that he was evil. Yes he was funny and had an obsession with Buffy that I for some strange reason I found endearing in season five. I guess I felt like he was earning a place in the scoobies with his protecion of Dawn in the beginning of season six but it always bothered me that he was supposed to be souless, which we were told in the very beginning meant he was evil. I never really got on board with Spuffy because of this fact. If they had wanted to make Spike a real love interest they should have given him a soul instead of a chip. At least in 7 he had the damn thing so I felt that for the first time his feelings for her were real. (But I never felt like he was the ultimate one for her)

Okay now I'm rambling so I hope this made some sorta sense. I just want to make one more point about what I think the show was all about. I think the show was less about one girl fighting the forces of evil and more about the hope of surviving said forcesand the darkness they bring, and thus it was about hope. At least that's the way I always saw it and this was just one of the many, many reasons I loved this show.

I agree with almost all of this.

As for that last part, I've heard a lot of people say that what they like about the characters is that even with all of the horrible stuff that happens to them, and all the character development they undergo, they're strong enough to still remain the same people deep down. This is what gave the series hope. So to see them all become so distanced from what they started out with--to the point of becoming weaker people--really took a lot of the hope out of the show for me.

[knightofkrypton]

The one thing about the final season of Buffy that I can say. Is that the entire season you KNEW it was the final season. They made it pretty obvious. Not to mention with Buffy you always knew that there was a full season mostly goal oriented towards building up towards the big showdown.

The one small problem that I have with the final season of Angel is that I felt that the "finale" was incredibly rushed. I know that Joss wasn't too sure if Angel was going to make it to season 6 or not but still the ending was rather rushed for me.

The whole "Black Thorn" issue came in one episode. And then a "flashback" explained how it had been in the works for a time. But with no obvious hints except for Angel being more Wolfram and Harts man....

The finale just came too suddenly for me to fully.....not believe.....I guess is to fully find satisfaction. Maybe thats it.

At least with the finale of Buffy there was sufficient satisfaction. You knew the finale was coming for a time, you knew a big showdown was in place. You saw most of the pieces fall into place and you knew the outcome after the battle. You had a full season of buildup.

With Angel....the build up was mostly two episodes. I enjoyed it, but it was just rushed to me.

[Fat Elvis 007]

The one thing about the final season of Buffy that I can say. Is that the entire season you KNEW it was the final season. They made it pretty obvious. Not to mention with Buffy you always knew that there was a full season mostly goal oriented towards building up towards the big showdown.

The one small problem that I have with the final season of Angel is that I felt that the "finale" was incredibly rushed. I know that Joss wasn't too sure if Angel was going to make it to season 6 or not but still the ending was rather rushed for me.

The whole "Black Thorn" issue came in one episode. And then a "flashback" explained how it had been in the works for a time. But with no obvious hints except for Angel being more Wolfram and Harts man....

The finale just came too suddenly for me to fully.....not believe.....I guess is to fully find satisfaction. Maybe thats it.

At least with the finale of Buffy there was sufficient satisfaction. You knew the finale was coming for a time, you knew a big showdown was in place. You saw most of the pieces fall into place and you knew the outcome after the battle. You had a full season of buildup.

With Angel....the build up was mostly two episodes. I enjoyed it, but it was just rushed to me.

This I agree with. It was rushed, especially with the Black Thorn. But since they were connected to Wolfram and Hart, I didn't really have a problem with them coming out of nowhere since I just saw the as an extension of W&H, which had been the big bad since the beginning.

[slayfan]

I agree with almost all of this.

As for that last part, I've heard a lot of people say that what they like about the characters is that even with all of the horrible stuff that happens to them, and all the character development they undergo, they're strong enough to still remain the same people deep down. This is what gave the series hope. So to see them all become so distanced from what they started out with--to the point of becoming weaker people--really took a lot of the hope out of the show for me.

Which is why the last two seasons are at the bottom of my favorites list, six being the worst which is where this is most evident.

[Hopefulsuicide]

while i do agree that season 6 was a lot about lack of hope, it is becoming my favourite seasons... because i just find it so utterly realistic. no one comes back from heaven and lives their life just like before. i felt so strongly that Buffy was acting and living in the exact way that a person who had been through the things she had been through would

and because i have been depressed and apathetic i understand her actions and mood completely. but the thing is, it wasn't accepted. the characters don't just give up. as season 6 progresses, not only do the characters push Buffy to regain her will to live, but she also begins to understand life a little better. the epiphany she has at the end that she wants more than anything to see the woman dawn has become showed to me that the greatest thing about living isn't the things you experiance, it's the love and happiness of watching the people you care about grow and succeed in life.

in fact, i find season 6 more uplifting because of this. buffy, willow, xander and anya all hit rock bottom. and while they don't come straight back up, they do prove that human nature doesn't let us stay down. the situations they have lived through 6 years led to their break downs and that is not only no surprise, but also incredibly good writing.

then you look at a show like smallville

characters just dont do that. i mean you could say that clark has grown depressed, lana went a little crazy and lex has definately slipped into darkness, but the reason for this isn't character growth. with Lex it's character realisation, turning him into what he is supposed to be.

with clark it's character ruination. they have left him moping in smallville for so long that it's ridiculous. with Lana it's character change... complete change. not like dark willow, where she literally goes as far as a person can and comes right back, but just a change of nature

it doesn't flow, it's not connected and it doesn't further the journeys of the characters. with buffy, even when she is depressed, she is still learning and growing and fighting, even when she doesnt know why. i dont think they became weaker people, they just became dissatisfied.

[Fat Elvis 007]

while i do agree that season 6 was a lot about lack of hope, it is becoming my favourite seasons... because i just find it so utterly realistic. no one comes back from heaven and lives their life just like before. i felt so strongly that Buffy was acting and living in the exact way that a person who had been through the things she had been through would

and because i have been depressed and apathetic i understand her actions and mood completely. but the thing is, it wasn't accepted. the characters don't just give up. as season 6 progresses, not only do the characters push Buffy to regain her will to live, but she also begins to understand life a little better. the epiphany she has at the end that she wants more than anything to see the woman dawn has become showed to me that the greatest thing about living isn't the things you experiance, it's the love and happiness of watching the people you care about grow and succeed in life.

in fact, i find season 6 more uplifting because of this. buffy, willow, xander and anya all hit rock bottom. and while they don't come straight back up, they do prove that human nature doesn't let us stay down. the situations they have lived through 6 years led to their break downs and that is not only no surprise, but also incredibly good writing.

Season 6 is one of the first seasons I remember seeing a majority of. I remember really connecting to Buffy's isolation at the time and thinking the show was brave to go to such a dark place.

But as I watched the earlier seasons, I realized the tone was completely different. It wasn't that the show didn't deal with dark themes--it did. The Angelus arc was extremely dark. But the characters' reactions to things like this were nothing like their reactions to their problems in the later seasons. Buffy went through a lot of pain, but she didn't let it rule her life. She overcame and she got back up. All the characters did. I realized how life-affirming and inspirational the show used to be, and how strong the characters were in the face of terrible problems. All of a sudden the "darkness" of Season 6 seemed very shallow and forced. The characters did not seem to be themselves. Seeing Buffy, Dawn and Willow all develop addictions was just unbelievable and out of character, IMO, and so I couldn't take any of it seriously as a legitimate storyline. It was all just forced nonsense.

As for the characters "pushing Buffy to regain her will to live," I don't remember that happening at all. They would have actually had to talk to each other about their feelings and tell Buffy what their was to live for in order for that to happen, and that just didn't happen in S6.

And I highly disagree that the characters ever got back up from where they were. I've said it before, I wouldn't hate Season 6 as much if the characters had grew from it and become better people in Season 7. But they didn't. Buffy was still isolated and depressed. Even worse, she treated her friends and the people under her charge like dirt. She said at the end of Season 6 that she wanted to show Dawn the world, but aside from 'Lessons" did she follow up on that at all? Giles was still running away from his responsibilities as Watcher and completely shutting off emotionally. His relationship with Buffy just got worse in S7. He didn't even try to help with training the Potentials or coming up with strategy. And with the stakes as high as they were, this was worse than his abandonment of Buffy in S6. Willow's turn to the Dark Side had just left her more afraid and self-loathing than ever, which was understandable, even though I think the Dark Willow storyline was not. But it wasn't enjoyable to watch. Xander didn't suffer anywhere near as much as the rest of the Core Four, but only because he wasn't given any kind of storyline to speak of.

The show had gone from a good balance of light and dark to just dark. Which wouldn't have been that bad if it had made sense, but everyone was forced to act way out of character in order to accommodate for the darkness. It was fake.


then you look at a show like smallville

characters just dont do that. i mean you could say that clark has grown depressed, lana went a little crazy and lex has definately slipped into darkness, but the reason for this isn't character growth. with Lex it's character realisation, turning him into what he is supposed to be.

with clark it's character ruination. they have left him moping in smallville for so long that it's ridiculous. with Lana it's character change... complete change. not like dark willow, where she literally goes as far as a person can and comes right back, but just a change of nature

IMO, Dark Willow was a complete change of nature. That was NOT the Willow Rosenburg I loved for five seasons. I really just don't know what the writers were thinking here.


it doesn't flow, it's not connected and it doesn't further the journeys of the characters. with buffy, even when she is depressed, she is still learning and growing and fighting, even when she doesnt know why. i dont think they became weaker people, they just became dissatisfied.

I think S6 and 7 of Buffy had a lot of the same problems as the whole of SV, but at least Buffy always had a few funny lines in each episode, even the worst ones. You can't say the same for SV.

[Hopefulsuicide]

All of a sudden the "darkness" of Season 6 seemed very shallow and forced. The characters did not seem to be themselves. Seeing Buffy, Dawn and Willow all develop addictions was just unbelievable and out of character, IMO, and so I couldn't take any of it seriously as a legitimate storyline. It was all just forced nonsense.

i find addictions very real and believable. but then in my own life i am surrounded by them. my mother and father were both alchoholics before i was born. my best friend is addicted to valium, and even i find myself addicted to men in the same way buffy seemed to be with spike. and considering these characters go through things that we cant even imagine the mental consequences of, i find it totally within character to concieve that they would all become a bit messed up. i mean can you imagine how addictive that kind of magic would be. especially for someone who had never touched on something so powerful. ever since restless it had been clear that willow was afraid of being a nobody, and that kind of power was just incredible for her... and it went horribly wrong. but i totally understood the immense emotion of loosing tara. so much better than the way characters in smallville react to death. a little teary eyed.


p.s. will go through the other stuff you said in a bit, but i have to rush off x

[Fat Elvis 007]

i find addictions very real and believable. but then in my own life i am surrounded by them. my mother and father were both alchoholics before i was born. my best friend is addicted to valium, and even i find myself addicted to men in the same way buffy seemed to be with spike. and considering these characters go through things that we cant even imagine the mental consequences of, i find it totally within character to concieve that they would all become a bit messed up. i mean can you imagine how addictive that kind of magic would be. especially for someone who had never touched on something so powerful. ever since restless it had been clear that willow was afraid of being a nobody, and that kind of power was just incredible for her... and it went horribly wrong. but i totally understood the immense emotion of loosing tara. so much better than the way characters in smallville react to death. a little teary eyed.


p.s. will go through the other stuff you said in a bit, but i have to rush off x

Hopefulsuicide, I apologize if I've touched a sensitive subject here and I'm sorry that this is something you and your family have had to go through. I won't pretend to know more about addiction than you. I can only speak from my knowledge of the characters and the show when I say that it was very disappointing to see them go down that path, and I do not think it was in character. Yes, addiction is something that even the strongest of us sometimes face, and perhaps the writers could have still used those themes in a realistic way. But IMO, the set-up was not realistic or in character. IMO, it was just manipulative. Tara starts complaining because Willow is using too much magic, such as when she makes the party decorations. Since when is Tara against using magic for frivolous purposes? That's how her entire relationship with Willow started! Floating roses, making stuffed animals dance, etc. Then there's Giles also getting on Willow's case, calling her a "very stupid girl" for doing the resurrection spell. Had we ever seen Giles treat Willow that way before? Was there any evidence to back up his claims that it could have unleashed the apocalypse? IMO, the early episodes were designed to manipulate us into thinking Willow was a bad, bad witch, even though she wasn't really doing anything she hadn't done before. Then they take it further by actually having Willow act entirely out of character, gleefully breaking her promise to Tara in "Tabula Rasa" and saying in the next episode that she left "for no good reason." As for the addiction itself, it was such a literal metaphor that she did just about everything but roll up a page of a magic book and smoke it like a doobie, and I think even that was in the deleted scenes. Magic being addictive makes sense; magic being a literal drug that makes you high does not, especially in the context of the earlier seasons. Worst of all, they took something that was previously used as a positive metaphor for Willow's growing strength and her relationship with Tara, and turned it into a negative metaphor for self-destruction. The aftermath of this in Season 7 is that the writers can't make up their minds about what to do with Willow's power, and I think they realized then that it wasn't worth the risk.

Giles leaving made absolutely no sense; first he leaves them to fight the vamps and demons on their own, without a Slayer; then when Buffy needed him more than ever, and he saw that the group was falling apart. Yes, he may have thought they needed to work this out on their own, as adults, but he should have been there to help and we are shown that the gang are not able to work things out by themselves.

Buffy's money troubles are ridiculous; Willow and Tara are living there, why aren't they contributing? Neither of them have a job. How did they support themselves and Dawn over the summer? Giles presumably has a cushy living from the Watcher's Council; even if Buffy's troubles are too much for him to pay for with his salary, can't he ask for some more from the Council, with their unlimited resources? I'm sure they'd understand that a Slayer who can't afford to put food on the table is not a very effective one. Why can't Dawn get a job to help out? More importantly, why doesn't Dawn have any friends of her own? Her constant feelings of being overlooked and "neglected" by her sister's friends is what led her to kleptomania. A darker and more realistic storyline could have been about Dawn's guilt that Buffy died for her, instead of the selfish and ridiculous klepto storyline. Instead she was treated as just another burden for Buffy, another thing to make her depressed enough to run into Spike's arms.

So these are my problems with the season. Yes, addiction can make for a powerful and realistic storyline, when done right. But the storylines in S6 relied so much on contrivance and OOC behavior, that it just didn't hold up, IMO.

[Vergon6]

I am not sure of the exact situation, but I seem to remember the reason why Giles had this off and on arc in Season 6 and 7 was because Anthony Stewart Head wanted to pursue other projects.

It's sort of like how in Angel, the arc for Cordelia in Season 4 was born out of (forgive the pun) Charisma Carpenter becoming pregnant and subsequently having a child. Joss Whedon claimed an interview that like Buffy, Cordy had to go because her arc was over after 7 years. But something tells me things would have been different if Charisma had not got pregnant. The sad thing about Season 4 of Angel was that we never really saw the real Cordelia except for brief moments on the higher plane and her reversion to teenage Cordy (with the call back to the first time Cordy saw Angel on Buffy, saying "Mmm salty goodness." lol)

As for the whole addiction thing, I wasn't that enthused about it, but there was so many different things that were uncomfortable about Season 6. But I guess that was really the point. Plus, Joss Whedon seemed to like to pile the adversity on his characters more and more as the years passed. I think in some cases this worked out well, in some cases it didn't. With Willow, I am not so sure it worked in Season 6, but I liked Wesley's character development overall (all of it perfectly enscapulated in the rapid flashback sequence in "Origin" as the memories came all flooding back).

[Fat Elvis 007]

I am not sure of the exact situation, but I seem to remember the reason why Giles had this off and on arc in Season 6 and 7 was because Anthony Stewart Head wanted to pursue other projects.

Close. It wasn't other projects, it was that ASH wanted to spend more time with his family, who lived in England.

But even though the loss of Giles was unavoidable, they still could have done a better job explaining his absence. They could have had some emergency in the Council that he needed to attend to, or something. Or maybe they could have had Buffy put on a brave face around him, making him think he wasn't needed anymore. That would have made him look a lot better than leaving when Buffy obviously needed him, and even pleaded for him not to go.


It's sort of like how in Angel, the arc for Cordelia in Season 4 was born out of (forgive the pun) Charisma Carpenter becoming pregnant and subsequently having a child. Joss Whedon claimed an interview that like Buffy, Cordy had to go because her arc was over after 7 years. But something tells me things would have been different if Charisma had not got pregnant. The sad thing about Season 4 of Angel was that we never really saw the real Cordelia except for brief moments on the higher plane and her reversion to teenage Cordy (with the call back to the first time Cordy saw Angel on Buffy, saying "Mmm salty goodness." lol)

Yeah, Cordelia's loss was very regrettable. But at least she recovered her awesomeness in "You're Welcome." I don't know if Giles ever did.


As for the whole addiction thing, I wasn't that enthused about it, but there was so many different things that were uncomfortable about Season 6. But I guess that was really the point. Plus, Joss Whedon seemed to like to pile the adversity on his characters more and more as the years passed. I think in some cases this worked out well, in some cases it didn't. With Willow, I am not so sure it worked in Season 6, but I liked Wesley's character development overall (all of it perfectly enscapulated in the rapid flashback sequence in "Origin" as the memories came all flooding back).

I think Wesley's descent into darkness was handled much better than Willow's. In fact, Angel usually dealt with darkness better than Buffy.

[Vergon6]

Close. It wasn't other projects, it was that ASH wanted to spend more time with his family, who lived in England.

But even though the loss of Giles was unavoidable, they still could have done a better job explaining his absence. They could have had some emergency in the Council that he needed to attend to, or something. Or maybe they could have had Buffy put on a brave face around him, making him think he wasn't needed anymore. That would have made him look a lot better than leaving when Buffy obviously needed him, and even pleaded for him not to go.


Yeah, Cordelia's loss was very regrettable. But at least she recovered her awesomeness in "You're Welcome." I don't know if Giles ever did.



I think Wesley's descent into darkness was handled much better than Willow's. In fact, Angel usually dealt with darkness better than Buffy.
Ah ok. Yeah, I can see what you mean about the handling of Giles, at the early stages of his return at least. I did like when returned at the end of Season 6 to deal with Dark Willow and things like that.

Yeah, Cordelia did regain her awesomeness in "You're Welcome" but then she died. So there wasn't much time to absorb that. In some ways it would have been easier if she left for parts unknown.

Well with Wesley I think it was also much more gradual thing. I think you are right in the sense that Willow was just reckless and then went completely off the wagon once Tara died. Meanwhile Wesley being torn up inside every second with the thought that Angel might turn evil and kill his son, and he tried so many times to disprove the doctored prophecy before he finally made the choice to betray Angel. Then of course his subsequent exile from the group just made things worse.

I think perhaps the reason why Wesley's arc was handled better is because Angel had always been a darker show from the start.

[Smalvil1]

Now before i start this rant of an analysis, i just want to say i am a smallville fan, mainly because im obsessed with anything superman. i had a fit when i first discovered it was coming, and i havent missed an episode since. There are episodes i adore, the characters all have shining moments and some of the twists in the story are very exciting. Best things about smallville are lionel, chloe, braniac, the shatterd/asylum/ memoria plot, Clark on red k, Lana as a ***** and Lex's shocking idea of love (i.e. baby)

However, it suddenly clicked to me today that we are in Smallville's 7th season. 7! And there seems to be no indication that there won't be an 8th season. What the hell is that?

I'm a big fan of tv shows in the same genre. I love Alias (5 seasons) Roswell (3 seasons) Firefly (1 season) Angel (5 seasons) Lois and Clark (4 seasons) dead like me (2 seasons) wonderfalls (1 season) dead zone (6 seasons) and finally Buffy (7 seaons)

There is also x-files (9 seasons) and Charmed (8 seasons)

Take a look at all of these and explain to me why all the ones in the first lesson where cancelled at least a season before Smallville!

I'll tell you why, because whether a show stays on air isnt about whether it is a good show anymore, its about whether it gets ratings, and what Smallville has gotten down to a T is attracting an audience by showing off pretty people in skimpy outfits, or showers, turning the superman mythos into nothing much more than a teen agnst show like The OC, with a little splash of special effects.

A show like the x-files deserves 9 series, whether you think the last few were any good or not. A show like Charmed didn't... i think i will have no arguement that this was about pretty people aswell.

Yet a show like Firefly that was intellegent, well received, has now had alot of press due to the fanbase it created... was squished after not even a whole series?

Someone should create a Tv network that has values other than monetary. It's like there isnt even a chance for people to produce art on tv, to produce masterpeices... unless they throw in some sex and flashy cgi

Buffy was lucky. It had hotties, but that didnt take away from the story. In fact part of the idea is that the reason it's unexpected that she is so powerful is because shes just a hot blonde thing. It's sort of mocking itself.

Smallville is shamelessly exploiting it's actors and actresses, undermining interesting characters such as chloe because they arent marketable as sexual objects as much as others.

I'm sorry for the ramble it's just an injustice.


I dont think a tv shows run was ever about quality. The networks only care about money. Should it be different, yes. Is it, no. It is the same with the scholl system (well at least it is in florida). Schools dont make money, so the government doesnt want to put alot of money for it, even though it is very important.

And didnt buffy end, not get cancelled?

[Hopefulsuicide]

Hopefulsuicide, I apologize if I've touched a sensitive subject here and I'm sorry that this is something you and your family have had to go through.

don't worry, it's not something i'm sensitive about, and i didnt mean to sound defense, i just meant that i relate to season 6 cause it rings true with a lot of the stuff going on in real life around me.

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----



Hopefulsuicide, Tara starts complaining because Willow is using too much magic, such as when she makes the party decorations. Since when is Tara against using magic for frivolous purposes? That's how her entire relationship with Willow started! Floating roses, making stuffed animals dance, etc. Then there's Giles also getting on Willow's case, calling her a "very stupid girl" for doing the resurrection spell. Had we ever seen Giles treat Willow that way before? Was there any evidence to back up his claims that it could have unleashed the apocalypse? .

tara's complaint wasn't that it was frivalous, but that it was becoming her answer to everything... she was becoming reliant on it... and that is the beginning of dependancy

and giles has always been wary of willow doing magic, right from the beginning when she first started looking into the black arts... he gave constant warnings not to mess with things she couldnt handle

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gleefully[/I] breaking her promise to Tara in "Tabula Rasa" and saying in the next episode that she left "for no good reason." As for the addiction itself, it was such a literal metaphor that she did just about everything but roll up a page of a magic book and smoke it like a doobie, and I think even that was in the deleted scenes. Magic being addictive makes sense; magic being a literal drug that makes you high does not, especially in the context of the earlier seasons. Worst of all, they took something that was previously used as a positive metaphor for Willow's growing strength and her relationship with Tara, and turned it into a negative metaphor for self-destruction. The aftermath of this in Season 7 is that the writers can't make up their minds about what to do with Willow's power, and I think they realized then that it wasn't worth the risk.



see the thing about addicts is they don't realise they have a problem until it hits rock bottom. it's all about denial. willow breaking the promise showed that she simply hadnt taken tara seriously... she placated her with the promise but really in her head she thought it was a load of fuss about nothing. but she does get worse, and when she does and she looks back she sees how wrong what she was doing was, and that the signs were all there in front of her.

magic giving you a high has been a constant through the seasons. it's why ripper and his gang used to invoke eyghon! and why wouldnt it be! i mean even basic stereotypes of paganism have girls dancing naked around fire! sounds pretty crazy to me, but that's how magic made them feel i guess :lol:

thing is, the magic addiction wasn't trying to be a subtle hint to drug addiction... it was an in your face blatant thing. but it makes total sense. because in a world like Buffy's world of course drug addictions are going to be a little weirder than in a normal world... and that's magic

and since when is anything in life confined to being only good or bad. magic, like alot of things can be a positive wonderful thing or a negative. it's what you do with the power that makes it good or bad, not what the power is... magic is neutral, people are confused.

they didnt give up on exploring willow's magic, in fact they went all the other way, having willow use her magic for such goodness that she looked like a godess! and that's so the point!

p.s. i still don't see it as out of character... i mean if willow had been a witch since we had known her then maybe, but this isnt something that came with the package. i mean you could say willow being interested in magic even in the second season was out of character, but it's all just a journey

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Buffy's money troubles are ridiculous; Willow and Tara are living there, why aren't they contributing? Neither of them have a job. How did they support themselves and Dawn over the summer? Giles presumably has a cushy living from the Watcher's Council; even if Buffy's troubles are too much for him to pay for with his salary, can't he ask for some more from the Council, with their unlimited resources? I'm sure they'd understand that a Slayer who can't afford to put food on the table is not a very effective one. Why can't Dawn get a job to help out? More importantly, why doesn't Dawn have any friends of her own? Her constant feelings of being overlooked and "neglected" by her sister's friends is what led her to kleptomania. A darker and more realistic storyline could have been about Dawn's guilt that Buffy died for her, instead of the selfish and ridiculous klepto storyline. Instead she was treated as just another burden for Buffy, another thing to make her depressed enough to run into Spike's arms.

.


willow and tara having no job does seem silly, even though they are at uni... but i'm sure they did contribute with whatever money they had. they supported dawn with the money joyce left, thats why it was running out. giles gave buffy a wopping load of money in the form of a cheque, which is when he realised that she would be happy to just sit back and let him take care of everything... which isnt healthy for anyone. he couldnt have asked the council to pay her or anything, because they kind of hate her, and would have tryed to make her do things for it. dawn is in high school... yeah she probably could have gotten a job, but buffy didnt want to make her do that, she wanted to look after her the way their mother would have done. dawn's emotions and kleptomania do seem to be out of nowhere, but then that sort of thing usually is. and to be fair to her, she doesnt seem to have many friends, and has issues of being left out because of the insecurities that started when she was told she was the key. she needs to be assured that she is loved.

IMO buffy running into spike's arms wasn't because of the outside burdens of her life, it was because of the emptiness she felt inside. work, dawn and all those things kept her mind off the emptiness, but spike filled it for her... when she was with him, she felt something through the numbness of not wanting to be alive at all. it all makes sense to me.

[Dannyblue1]

The thing I remember most about "Not Fade Away" is grinning from ear-to-ear when it was over. Which probably seems weird for two reasons.

1. It was the end of my favorite show.

2. It looked like everyone was going to die.

But the reason I was smiling is I was so darned proud of everybody. They were all heroes, all fighting the good fight, all standing up for what they thought was right. Despite the apparent darkness of that ending, it was oddly uplifting. And, even while I was grinning, I was a little teary.

What I also loved about "Not Fade Away" was that every character got a chance to shine, to do their part. And, when the ep was over, I felt myself feeling very satisfied and content. And also thinking about it months later.

Oh, and I don't consider the comics of either show canon. They are AUs that can be taken as canon if you want.

[Fat Elvis 007]

don't worry, it's not something i'm sensitive about, and i didnt mean to sound defense, i just meant that i relate to season 6 cause it rings true with a lot of the stuff going on in real life around me.

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----



tara's complaint wasn't that it was frivalous, but that it was becoming her answer to everything... she was becoming reliant on it... and that is the beginning of dependancy

and giles has always been wary of willow doing magic, right from the beginning when she first started looking into the black arts... he gave constant warnings not to mess with things she couldnt handle

----- Added 9 Minutes later -----



see the thing about addicts is they don't realise they have a problem until it hits rock bottom. it's all about denial. willow breaking the promise showed that she simply hadnt taken tara seriously... she placated her with the promise but really in her head she thought it was a load of fuss about nothing. but she does get worse, and when she does and she looks back she sees how wrong what she was doing was, and that the signs were all there in front of her.

magic giving you a high has been a constant through the seasons. it's why ripper and his gang used to invoke eyghon! and why wouldnt it be! i mean even basic stereotypes of paganism have girls dancing naked around fire! sounds pretty crazy to me, but that's how magic made them feel i guess :lol:

thing is, the magic addiction wasn't trying to be a subtle hint to drug addiction... it was an in your face blatant thing. but it makes total sense. because in a world like Buffy's world of course drug addictions are going to be a little weirder than in a normal world... and that's magic

and since when is anything in life confined to being only good or bad. magic, like alot of things can be a positive wonderful thing or a negative. it's what you do with the power that makes it good or bad, not what the power is... magic is neutral, people are confused.

they didnt give up on exploring willow's magic, in fact they went all the other way, having willow use her magic for such goodness that she looked like a godess! and that's so the point!

p.s. i still don't see it as out of character... i mean if willow had been a witch since we had known her then maybe, but this isnt something that came with the package. i mean you could say willow being interested in magic even in the second season was out of character, but it's all just a journey

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willow and tara having no job does seem silly, even though they are at uni... but i'm sure they did contribute with whatever money they had. they supported dawn with the money joyce left, thats why it was running out. giles gave buffy a wopping load of money in the form of a cheque, which is when he realised that she would be happy to just sit back and let him take care of everything... which isnt healthy for anyone. he couldnt have asked the council to pay her or anything, because they kind of hate her, and would have tryed to make her do things for it. dawn is in high school... yeah she probably could have gotten a job, but buffy didnt want to make her do that, she wanted to look after her the way their mother would have done. dawn's emotions and kleptomania do seem to be out of nowhere, but then that sort of thing usually is. and to be fair to her, she doesnt seem to have many friends, and has issues of being left out because of the insecurities that started when she was told she was the key. she needs to be assured that she is loved.

IMO buffy running into spike's arms wasn't because of the outside burdens of her life, it was because of the emptiness she felt inside. work, dawn and all those things kept her mind off the emptiness, but spike filled it for her... when she was with him, she felt something through the numbness of not wanting to be alive at all. it all makes sense to me.

You raise a lot of good points here, though I still disagree with a lot of them...but I won't press the issue. Obviously Season 6 means a lot to you, and I'm not going to try and ruin it for you! It meant a lot to me, as well, at a certain point in my life. As I said earlier, at the time I first watched it I connected to Buffy's isolation and depression. It just has not aged well with me, and I find I just don't enjoy it anymore.

And that's really what it comes down to. It doesn't really matter whether the plot developments made sense or not, but whether it was enjoyable entertainment. Some people can connect with Willow's addiction and find it a realistic depiction of that kind of struggle, others look at it and feel that a wonderful character has been destroyed in order for that story to even happen. It's really a matter of preference. Even if I did feel that Willow's addiction was in character and made sense given the rules of the 'verse, I still wouldn't like it because Willow becoming an addict is just depressing to me and not something I ever wanted to see. Ditto for Buffy losing her sense of humor and fun and sleeping with a murderer.

So I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here.

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Well with Wesley I think it was also much more gradual thing. I think you are right in the sense that Willow was just reckless and then went completely off the wagon once Tara died. Meanwhile Wesley being torn up inside every second with the thought that Angel might turn evil and kill his son, and he tried so many times to disprove the doctored prophecy before he finally made the choice to betray Angel. Then of course his subsequent exile from the group just made things worse.

I think perhaps the reason why Wesley's arc was handled better is because Angel had always been a darker show from the start.

I think DarkWillow would have been handled better if they had stuck with what they seemed to be doing in the first half with Willow's control issues. She wants to make things better, and she thinks she knows better than everyone else around her. This could have led her down a dark path and would have justified her killing Warren and attempts to kill Johnathon and Andrew. But instead the writers chose to go with "The Wicked Witch of Southern California," which I found to make for a much more hollow character. I probably wouldn't have liked it either way, but at least it would have better than what we got, IMO.

[Hopefulsuicide]

And that's really what it comes down to. It doesn't really matter whether the plot developments made sense or not, but whether it was enjoyable entertainment. Some people can connect with Willow's addiction and find it a realistic depiction of that kind of struggle, others look at it and feel that a wonderful character has been destroyed in order for that story to even happen. It's really a matter of preference. Even if I did feel that Willow's addiction was in character and made sense given the rules of the 'verse, I still wouldn't like it because Willow becoming an addict is just depressing to me and not something I ever wanted to see. Ditto for Buffy losing her sense of humor and fun and sleeping with a murderer.

So I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here.

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nah i can agree with that... i mean that's why i'm not liking smallville as much... because i feel they are ruining a character i love :(