"If you want to play God..."

[lana kent 04]

"If you want to play God, you forgot one of his greatest gifts, free will."

I loved this line. IMO one of the best lines on Smallville. I have to give props to the Smallville writers for getting this biblical reference straight. The last one about Delilah was way off!

My quote probably isn't right, so feel free to correct if you want!

[Who]

That was an awesome line.

[BadToad]

I thought Michael Cassiday did a great job in this episode, and he hasn't really impressed me much up to now. But that scene, and his delivery on that line was really great.

[Mello Penelo]

Well, considering Lana is a Delilah, or another biblical reference starting with the letter "D," they're two-for-two.

[Odysseus]

Originally posted by BadToad
I thought Michael Cassiday did a great job in this episode, and he hasn't really impressed me much up to now. But that scene, and his delivery on that line was really great.

Agreed. Up till now, I'd hated Grant with a passion, but thanks to Michael Cassidy's acting this episode combined with the "My whole identity was a lie" plot twist that made me feel sorry for Grant, I think I actually like the character now.

He made a decision at the end of the episode to try and live his own life. Apart from both Lex and Lois. That takes a lot of resolve on his part. It was a very respectable decision.

Although I get the feeling that Lex isn't going to just let him walk away...

[moviefan2k4]

Yeah, its nice to see the show get at least one Biblical reference straight. hey messed up in Season 1 as well, with the story of David & Bathsheba. Lex told Clark they fell in love, but in truth, David fell to selfish lust, and that's why he sent her husband to die in battle.

[Mello Penelo]

Well, Bathsheba stayed David's wife from then on. He did love her. It was love, not lust. He sent her husband off to war to get her in a time where there was no divorce and the only way to marry a married woman was for her husband to die.

[moviefan2k4]

My point was that while Lex implied David's original intention was love, the Scriptures paint a different picture, of a king motivated by jealousy, lust, and greed.

[ginnyfan]

Originally posted by lana kent 04
"If you want to play God, you forgot one of his greatest gifts, free will."

I loved this line. IMO one of the best lines on Smallville. I have to give props to the Smallville writers for getting this biblical reference straight. The last one about Delilah was way off!

My quote probably isn't right, so feel free to correct if you want!

That was a great line. And Michael Cassidy did a really good job in this episode.

[ClareKent]

Since the whole Grant/Julian thing came up, I started to hate him, but know I really loved it and I felt sorry for him, 'cause it's just an selfish experiment for Lex to have a "family".

[LegendaryU2K]

To the OP, that was not a biblical reference. Free will is man's way of thinking, because human beings believe they can live or do whatever they like and no harm will come about. But we have to follow rules, that is the correct biblical reference.

What lex did has nothing to do with GOD, so once again it was kinda out of place to even mention it in the script.

[chlark fan]

Yes, I thought that was a great line too. Very poignant and true.


Originally posted by LegendaryU2K
To the OP, that was not a biblical reference. Free will is man's way of thinking, because human beings believe they can live or do whatever they like and no harm will come about. But we have to follow rules, that is the correct biblical reference.

What lex did has nothing to do with GOD, so once again it was kinda out of place to even mention it in the script.


But we don't HAVE to follow the rules. God allows us to choose whether to do right or wrong, that's what free will is.

Lex was playing God by creating human life and Julian was spot on to say that God's greatest gift is Free Will.

[Superbeard]

Everything about King David and Bathsheba was correct, except for Bathsheba's wife being his best friend. He was just some poor schmuck already married to her. He was in the way. They dramatized it to parallel Smallvile.

[jesustlife]

Originally posted by Superbeard
Everything about King David and Bathsheba was correct, except for Bathsheba's wife being his best friend. He was just some poor schmuck already married to her. He was in the way. They dramatized it to parallel Smallvile.

David and Urias were friends and yes probably best friends. He was one of David's greatest warriors, they all put their lives for their King, and for David to do that to a friend was sick. Bathesba's uncle Ahitofel, made a pact later with David's son Absalon to take him out of the throne, in order to avenge Urias, and bring back honor to his family, but God had already forgiven David, and Absalon and Ahitofel's plan fell. Absalon's life ended hanging on a tree by his hair and Ahitofel hanged himself. God was mad with David, his first son with that woman died at birth, but their second one, became King Solomon. The names of the characters are written in spanish, just in case.

And I think you mean Bathsheba's husband, not wife. lol. And yes I'm a Bible freak. I love God.

[Kryptonian-Ronin]

Free will is a Biotch baby !

[freefall]

Grant's line about free will in that scene makes sense for me because he's not wallowing in self-pity about being just a clone and his entire life being a lie, he resolved to do something about it instead.

Clark wanting to stay on the farm forever with Lana is free will too. :lol:

[euterpe]

Grant was right on the money in comparing Lex to God. Lex created Grant/Julian because he wanted companionship/fellowship just as God created mankind for much the same reason.

However, I think he missed the mark with the statement about free will being God’s greatest gift, considering all the trouble that gift has caused every human being from Adam and Eve to the present. God’s greatest gift to mankind was and still remains His grace and salvation.


Originally posted by Mello Penelo
Well, Bathsheba stayed David's wife from then on. He did love her. It was love, not lust. He sent her husband off to war to get her in a time where there was no divorce and the only way to marry a married woman was for her husband to die.
Actually, there was divorce at that time. Moses had given the Israelites permission to give a certificate of divorce because of their hardened hearts.

[calebonyqt]

Yes, I too, loved the line. God has given us FREE WILL, and yes, it is a great gift. However, His greatest gift to us is Jesus. Merry Christmas! I'm just glad the writers use biblical references even if they aren't totally accurate. The metaphors usually are and they make for great discussion like this thread here.:D

[ginnyfan]

:D Merry Christmas!

[Saber]

Originally posted by lana kent 04
"If you want to play God, you forgot one of his greatest gifts, free will."

I loved this line. IMO one of the best lines on Smallville. I have to give props to the Smallville writers for getting this biblical reference straight.

This is one of the problems I have with this whole Julian clone angle. If Lex really wanted to grow a seed that would loved him, give him the unconditional loyalty that he wanted, he should have cloned a baby Julian. Then he could’ve raised him on his terms. He would’ve had a better success rate of raising a child in which he could’ve manipulated the situation. Cloning a grown man and then putting set memories I think would have only triggered the oppose effect to his ultimate goal. Once you get to a certain age parents/guardians no longer revolve around a person's life as much (still important up to a point) as when you’re growing up. Very much the same predicament Clark is now facing. Jor-El is forcing his hand with Clark to take his training and Clark is refusing because he has the “free will” to say I am going to live my life my way not yours. Thus, the statement of free will paralleled both of these men lives at this point (Clark & Julian).

Which is the lesser of the two evils in that scenario? Lex for cloning a brother to give him the unconditional love/loyalty to stand beside him as he takes over the world, and of course Lex sees all his deeds as a savior that people need at any cost.
Or Jor-El for forcing Clark to train to take his place in an alien world where he sees he can concur that world (for whatever reason whether good or bad) as maybe the salvation for earth.
I found both scenarios to be similar and it didn’t make sense that Lex would do that when he could’ve done the latter with a better success rate. This is why I don’t like the cloning plot of Julian as an already grown man.
So the question to ask for some civil debate is Jor-El and Lex really that different when it comes to “free will”, if we didn’t know the possible future of both Clark & Lex.

[freefall]

Originally posted by Saber
This is one of the problems I have with this whole Julian clone angle. If Lex really wanted to grow a seed that would loved him, give him the unconditional loyalty that he wanted, he should have cloned a baby Julian. Then he could’ve raised him on his terms. He would’ve had a better success rate of raising a child in which he could’ve manipulated the situation. Cloning a grown man and then putting set memories I think would have only triggered the oppose effect to his ultimate goal. Once you get to a certain age parents/guardians no longer revolve around a person's life as much (still important up to a point) as when you’re growing up. Very much the same predicament Clark is now facing. Jor-El is forcing his hand with Clark to take his training and Clark is refusing because he has the “free will” to say I am going to live my life my way not yours. Thus, the statement of free will paralleled both of these men lives at this point (Clark & Julian).

Which is the lesser of the two evils in that scenario? Lex for cloning a brother to give him the unconditional love/loyalty to stand beside him as he takes over the world, and of course Lex sees all his deeds as a savior that people need at any cost.
Or Jor-El for forcing Clark to train to take his place in an alien world where he sees he can concur that world (for whatever reason whether good or bad) as maybe the salvation for earth.
I found both scenarios to be similar and it didn’t make sense that Lex would do that when he could’ve done the latter with a better success rate. This is why I don’t like the cloning plot of Julian as an already grown man.
So the question to ask for some civil debate is Jor-El and Lex really that different when it comes to “free will”, if we didn’t know the possible future of both Clark & Lex.

You make some very interesting points. However, I think it has a lot to do with Lex wanting to have that loyalty and dependence from Adrian and Grant ASAP. He wants the shortcut, he definitely isn't going to waste his time trying to raise a baby.

Also, Grant and Adrian didn't turn against Lex just because suddenly they decided to stop being loyal without any reason, it's because they found out the truth about who they really are, that they are just Lex's lab experiments and that they have been used by Lex for his morbid purposes. The same thing would happen (Grant and Adrian turning against Lex) even if either of them has been raised from infancy.

As for Jor-El, his dysfunctional relationship with Clark has more to do with how he treated Clark instead of because Clark's already a grown man. I think if Jor-El has been kind and understanding in his approaches everytime he asked Clark to do something, and doesn't speak in riddles so much, their relationship could have gone very differently.

Jor-El is a bastard, pretty much like the way Lionel and Zor-El have treated Lex and Kara. All of them have spouted off declarations of love towards their children (Clark, Lex, Kara) and yet their actions all speak completely the opposite.

[lilkoolmaria]

I thought Michael Cassidy did a great job with that line and was awesome in the whole episode.

[red_cape_7]

i loved the line and even more, i loved MR's reaction to it.

[kal-el_of_krypton888]

I thought it was hackneyed and cliched and also an annoyingly gross hyperbole. In how many fictions do we get the comparison "playing god" in regards to cloning, genetic engineering, etc? More than I can count.

To even draw a comparison between God and Lex just because he threw some money and managed some scientists so they could clone a human is to me a large exaggeration. Lex wasn't even the brilliant mind behind the research-- only a money supply. He is only a corporate titan in Smallville. Makes the accomplishment seem much less grand to me. So "God is to Lex because God creates human and Lex funded the clone of a human" seems overblown.

Maybe the clone is defective because he can't come up with better things to say. Either way, I think it's a trite, exaggerated line.

You're completely right, though, in that the line did stand out. I noticed it too.

Context: Still a generally good episode with generally good writing, me thinks.


Originally posted by lana kent 04
"If you want to play God, you forgot one of his greatest gifts, free will."

I loved this line. IMO one of the best lines on Smallville.

Some interesting points below. About the raising Julian from a baby vs. implanting memories in an adult clone. I think it's a moot point because if Lex could implant whatever memories he desired, he could just as easily saved himself the trouble and implanted the childhood and rearing you suggest. If Julian never found out, all would be well. The success only hinges on that.

(Personally, I don't see Julian's dilemma too well. If I were a clone indistinguishable from humans, then I'm human. So what if nothing I remember happened if I know that to be the case? I'd be thankful for being alive. And then revise all the lies in my head, the brain is plastic and that's a great thing about it.)

About Jor-el+Clark+Free Will, there's a lot of harping on in the show about Clark's destiny. If Clark has a destiny, this precludes free will or at least constrains it. So if his destiny is true and real, it's a moot point. Destiny seems to be a real thing in the Smallville -verse.

You correctly note it's an odd situation for viewers because we all tacitly accept that Clark does have a destiny as Superman. So if we all agree on that, then Clark does not have free will. Jor-el is not acting out of order. Indeed we may cheer him for setting Clark straight. For that matter, neither did Lionel act out of order because we all tacitly accept Lex's destiny too.

On the other hand, if we entertain uncertainty and free will in Clark's future, then artificial intelligence Jor-el's behavior I think is cryptic but not damning. We just don't know how these things work on Krypton and presumably AI Jor-el is acting under Kryptonian custom, law, and morality--earth based values notwithstanding. AI Jor-el has never gone out of his way to harm any humans. (He did hurt Jonathan in 3.22, but Jonathan broke their agreement). The steps Jor-el has taken to assert control over Clark seem to me have always been in the better interest of humanity. And Clark seems to ignore any duty to his people and is disinterested in learning about Jor-el. I don't Jor-el has gotten a fair shot.


[i]He would’ve had a better success rate of raising a child in which he could’ve manipulated the situation. Cloning a grown man and then putting set memories I think would have only triggered the oppose effect to his ultimate goal.

Or Jor-El for forcing Clark to train to take his place in an alien world where he sees he can concur that world (for whatever reason whether good or bad) as maybe the salvation for earth.
I found both scenarios to be similar and it didn’t make sense that Lex would do that when he could’ve done the latter with a better success rate. This is why I don’t like the cloning plot of Julian as an already grown man.
So the question to ask for some civil debate is Jor-El and Lex really that different when it comes to “free will”, if we didn’t know the possible future of both Clark & Lex. [/B]

[Saber]

Originally posted by kal-el_of_krypton888


Some interesting points below. About the raising Julian from a baby vs. implanting memories in an adult clone. I think it's a moot point because if Lex could implant whatever memories he desired, he could just as easily saved himself the trouble and implanted the childhood and rearing you suggest. If Julian never found out, all would be well. The success only hinges on that.

(Personally, I don't see Julian's dilemma too well. If I were a clone indistinguishable from humans, then I'm human. So what if nothing I remember happened if I know that to be the case? I'd be thankful for being alive. And then revise all the lies in my head, the brain is plastic and that's a great thing about it.)

About Jor-el+Clark+Free Will, there's a lot of harping on in the show about Clark's destiny. If Clark has a destiny, this precludes free will or at least constrains it. So if his destiny is true and real, it's a moot point. Destiny seems to be a real thing in the Smallville -verse.

You correctly note it's an odd situation for viewers because we all tacitly accept that Clark does have a destiny as Superman. So if we all agree on that, then Clark does not have free will. Jor-el is not acting out of order. Indeed we may cheer him for setting Clark straight. For that matter, neither did Lionel act out of order because we all tacitly accept Lex's destiny too.

On the other hand, if we entertain uncertainty and free will in Clark's future, then artificial intelligence Jor-el's behavior I think is cryptic but not damning. We just don't know how these things work on Krypton and presumably AI Jor-el is acting under Kryptonian custom, law, and morality--earth based values notwithstanding. AI Jor-el has never gone out of his way to harm any humans. (He did hurt Jonathan in 3.22, but Jonathan broke their agreement). The steps Jor-el has taken to assert control over Clark seem to me have always been in the better interest of humanity. And Clark seems to ignore any duty to his people and is disinterested in learning about Jor-el. I don't Jor-el has gotten a fair shot.

Clark was nurtured to be a good person by the Kent’s. I think if Jor-El use that methodology to persuade Clark to is so call destiny then maybe the guy would have embraced it with his free will and not because Jor-El said so. You get more flies with honey than with vinegar. Jor-El has put forth a heavy hand with Clark and expected him to follow without question; a good AI would have had his best interest in mind to except his nature not go against it. I think he would have gladly followed Jor-El teachings if it were laid out as go to tool of information not as a must do or I’ll freeze your arse, son.

As far Lex & Julian are concerned maybe it would have been the same outcome but I think every child remembers love from a parent/guardian as innate, I think it would’ve been more instinctive on Julian’s part to want to love & be loyal to Lex. I don’t think you can clone or imprint that. That has to come from deep down inside; it’s like when a good parent protects their child with no regard to their own safety. I think children learn and see this and follow suit.