The real Clark on ice - Who froze him?

[allisonhaggerty]

What the hell was that about?
What is happening to Clark, TPTB have thrown me off the scent this time.

[xrayvision]

Now things are getting interesting. How the hell did Clark get trapped in the ice? Did Zor-El do it? Or was it Zor-El? And are one of them with Bizarro? Or did Bizarro do it himself? I guess it's possible because the FOS has no sunlight entering it and it would be ideal for Bizarro to attack him there.

[BizarroVan]

i never saw the ep(im mad pissed) but from what i've heard out of spoilers, i bet bigg money Zor-el and Bizarro are linked together, and i bet more money Zor-el created the bizarro phantom.

[KAL-EL_3]

why is bizarro doing good things like saving chloe and telling Lana how much he loves her all that?

[xrayvision]

Clark getting trapped in that ice is actually very similar to my fanfic, Eradication. Like Eradication, Clark was trapped in ice by a clone of his, but in this case it was Bizarro. In Eradication it was by Hank Henshaw (the Cyborg Superman...or in my case Cyborg Clark).

[biggkoz]

Actually I thought bizzaro was killed by martian manhunter

[BizarroVan]

Naw MM didn't kill Bizarro, remember when chloe at the end of the episode, "Bizarro" she was like "so is our bizarro clark on the sunny side of mars now?"
yeah

also, x-ray
dude, i read ur Fanfic and i cant believe how similar it was. thats really sweet dude

[myankskent]

Originally posted by xrayvision
Now things are getting interesting. How the hell did Clark get trapped in the ice? Did Zor-El do it? Or was it Zor-El? And are one of them with Bizarro? Or did Bizarro do it himself? I guess it's possible because the FOS has no sunlight entering it and it would be ideal for Bizarro to attack him there.

It would appear to me that Jor-El did it, since he did say at the end of Blue that Clark would have to pay for the consequences of his actions. So my guess is that Jor-El trapped Clark hoping to destroy Clark's life, that way Clark would stop making human emotional decisions and accept his destiny.

[BizarroVan]

Originally posted by myankskent
It would appear to me that Jor-El did it, since he did say at the end of Blue that Clark would have to pay for the consequences of his actions. So my guess is that Jor-El trapped Clark hoping to destroy Clark's life, that way Clark would stop making human emotional decisions and accept his destiny.
I don't think he did it to kill Clark, unless the theory that the Jor-el AI is actually Milton Fine.
But only time can tell(which sucks cuz i dont want to wait till january)

[biggkoz]

Yeah dont get why jorel always unleases crazy people on earth for clarks screw ups.

[myankskent]

Originally posted by BizarroVan
I don't think he did it to kill Clark, unless the theory that the Jor-el AI is actually Milton Fine.
But only time can tell(which sucks cuz i dont want to wait till january)

No, not to kill Clark, but it's possible that Jor-El is hoping that Clark won't have any family or friends to return to when he gets out of there, that is if Jor-El knows that Bizarro is taking his place and I can't imagine how Jor-El wouldn't know that. He seems to know about everything else that goes on.

[xrayvision]

Originally posted by KAL-EL_3
why is bizarro doing good things like saving chloe and telling Lana how much he loves her all that?

Because he has an agenda.

[adromidon]

I think that Jor-El put him on ice so that Bizzaro can assume his life then when he releases him his life would be ruined.

The strange thing though Bizzaro seemed to know everything that happened since he was removed by MMH. So maybe Jor-El uploaded Clark's memories to Bizzaro which is why it took 3 weeks for him to return

[erikamichelle614]

yea, but would jor el really do that to clark? he wants clark to fulfill his mission.

[xrayvision]

Originally posted by myankskent
No, not to kill Clark, but it's possible that Jor-El is hoping that Clark won't have any family or friends to return to when he gets out of there, that is if Jor-El knows that Bizarro is taking his place and I can't imagine how Jor-El wouldn't know that. He seems to know about everything else that goes on.

If Jor-El did it, then it's definitely not the AI of the real Jor-El. This would mean something happened sometime that changed the AI or it was never Jor-El to begin with.

BizarroVan, I never thought about Zor-El creating the Bizarro phantom. That would be something if Zor-El created him and is also in control of the FOS now, which wouldn't surprise me after the blue crystal was placed in the FOS.

[myankskent]

Originally posted by erikamichelle614
yea, but would jor el really do that to clark? he wants clark to fulfill his mission.

Never stopped him before. Jor-El basically took a huge mistake that Clark made in Blue, which Clark was able to recover from, I might add, and turned it into a very dangerous situation where Brainiac and Bizarro could join forces and rule the earth.

[ClarkyBoy14]

It sounds like Bizarro had been shadowing Clark.

--

I thinking this is Jor-El's way of spanking Clark.

[myankskent]

Originally posted by xrayvision
If Jor-El did it, then it's definitely not the AI of the real Jor-El. This would mean something happened sometime that changed the AI or it was never Jor-El to begin with.


That's the explanation that I was hoping for in Blue, but it doesn't seem like Zor-El had any part in messing with Jor-El. Maybe Brainiac did something, although I can't see how he could. He couldn't even destroy the fortress himself back in season 5, I doubt he could manipulate AI Jor-El, especially since he has been essentially dust all of this time.

[reobeem]

Jor-El needs to get off his spirit but and do something if he wants anything done. Who's going to stop the gruesome twosome now that Kara is lost and Clark's on ice?

[superspider02]

Well i believe jorel was punishing clark with putting him on ice. Now with bizarro he probably got back to earth at some point after mm throw him into space and probably was watching clark as a poster said earlier.

[dru-zod2501]

I highly doubt it was any kind of big conspiracy guys.

Jor-El (Who is Jor-El... plain old Prick Jor-El) Imprisoned Clark in the Fortress as punishment, which just happened to coincide Bizarro returning to earth. The End. Zor-El is gone, Lara is Gone, Kara's flipping pancakes or whatever she does playing human.
Brainiac is still not back up to strength enough to affect the fortress so he's still in back alleys sucking homeless folks.

[msleggie]

If Jor-El did freeze Clark, how would Bizzaro know? And if Bizzaro froze Clark, how did he know where to find him? I'm confuesed and I want some answers, I can't wait until the next episode.

[superman07]

So its the case of who done it? Who froze Clark in the ice? I think it was Clarks punishment but as far as Bizarro's return, i think Jor-El had nothing to do with it. So who do you think froze Clark Kent?

[Randy G.]

Mod note: Please make your future poll/thread titles more specific. ;)

[krypt0man]

Jor-El did it. Yeppers. That's the logical deduction based on the pieces we have so far. I might say Fine had something to do with Bizarro's release... but that's a big coincidence. And Bizarro was going about like he didn't have to worry at all about running into Clark. Like he knew he was on ice. So my vote's on Jor-El's tuff luv.

[dru-zod2501]

of course jor-el did it. i agree he didn't do anything to aid biz to come back

[Mr. Clark Kent27]

Possibly Milton Fine. Zor-El wants to rule, so Brainiac would be interested. He could want Bizarro for some reason.

And no, I don't think Bizarro froze Clark in the ice crystal, that could be another one. Cloned one maybe. I have no idea.

Jor-El would never do that. At the end of Blue, the fortress crystal ice chunks were getting brighter, maybe some one else was doing it.

[xrayvision]

Well, if Bizarro has been back long enough, he would have known about the eclipse and the FOS would be the most likely cause. And if BizarroVan is right (that Zor-El created the Bizarro phantom) then Zor-El (on Krypton) would have told him that the eclipse would be a sign that the crystal had been placed in the FOS and would signal that Zor-El was back.


Originally posted by myankskent
That's the explanation that I was hoping for in Blue, but it doesn't seem like Zor-El had any part in messing with Jor-El. Maybe Brainiac did something, although I can't see how he could. He couldn't even destroy the fortress himself back in season 5, I doubt he could manipulate AI Jor-El, especially since he has been essentially dust all of this time.

Maybe it's the case of "it sounds like Jor-El (has Jor-El's voice), but has the AI of Zor-El".

[muffinpeddler]

for the record, I don't think that's ice. It's sunstone crystal. Crystals are organic. So on earth a kryptonian crystal would conceivably be durable enough to hold clark.

[dh1031]

No, not to kill Clark, but it's possible that Jor-El is hoping that Clark won't have any family or friends to return to when he gets out of there, that is if Jor-El knows that Bizarro is taking his place and I can't imagine how Jor-El wouldn't know that. He seems to know about everything else that goes on. That does not track, the computer program in the FOS was the one to warn Clark about Bizzaro coming in the first place.

[curiosity]

Originally posted by myankskent
It would appear to me that Jor-El did it, since he did say at the end of Blue that Clark would have to pay for the consequences of his actions. So my guess is that Jor-El trapped Clark hoping to destroy Clark's life, that way Clark would stop making human emotional decisions and accept his destiny.

I don't think Jor-El did it. He's just letting Clark know that as a result of his actions, something else bad is going to happen. Clark did something which caused the release of Bizarro, or something like that. Maybe busting up the blue crystal caused the relase of Bizarro??

[Randy G.]

Everyone is giving this way too much thought. :\
Clark was standing right there, in the fortress (last episode) when Jor-el told him he would pay the price for disobeying him. The final shot was a close-up of Clark, then a flash of light.

Jor-el froze him. ;)

[xrayvision]

Originally posted by muffinpeddler
for the record, I don't think that's ice. It's sunstone crystal. Crystals are organic. So on earth a kryptonian crystal would conceivably be durable enough to hold clark.

I used put on ice as an expression.

I don't even think it's sunstone crystal. I think it's a Kryptonian mineral that the FOS is made of. If it was anything Earthly...even a terrestrial mineral, Clark would be able to break out of it.

Like I said, this reminded me greatly of Eradication, my season 6 finale fanfic. In that episode, I revealed that blue-k in my fanfic mythos when stabbed into an Earthly object will cause the object to absorb its properties and become blue-k. This is what happened when Hank Henshaw trapped a weakened Clark in a block of ice and then stabbed it with blue-k. It would be really cool if something similar happened here. In fact, it would make a lot of sense given:

1. We just saw blue-k and that ring in Blue

2. Blue-k takes Clark's powers away, which would be ideal for Bizarro after trapping Clark

I'm not sure if this will turn out to be true, but it would be cool for me anyway, if they used one of my ideas in an episode.

[Bruce Knight]

jor-el did it to teach clark a lession by freezing him and letting time pass by and his loved ones kinda go away(die or move away) then jor-el would release him and he would have no choice but to start his training,i think in bad timing bizzaro somhow escaped mars and learned about the recent events from torturing martian manhunter possibly

and how clark gets out may be up to martian manhunter who could tell jor-el about bizzaro and he frees him, or chloe or lana could do it

that's my theory anyway lol

[xrayvision]

^^That wouldn't make sense. If Jor-El wants Clark to save the planet and has any clue about Bizarro's presence or Brainiac trying to return (not saying that he does), then this would be a very stupid move on his part. He definitely knows of dangers that exist.

I doubt it was the Jor-El AI of the true Jor-El that did this. It had to be someone else...probably Zor-El. I have a bunch of theories on Zor-El and how he has always been in Clark's ship & the cave. Maybe it's true. Or maybe my other theory about Jor-El's "humanity" not having been downloaded into the crystal that created the FOS but instead into Lionel explains it

[paolinki25]

I get the feeling it was Brainiac. I don't know if it was only me, but the FOS looked so dark, like it has been possessed or it's under the control of somebody. Maybe Brainiac has taken over it.

[kryptonguy]

I think that Jor-el put Clark on ice, but bizarro is keeping him there. When the camera went to the fortress view, it was fairly dark, like when it was powered down after Brainiac infected it.

So I doubt Jor-el is responsible for the continued "freeze".

[xrayvision]

It was dark even back in Kara when Jor-El told Clark not to trust Kara. Could Zod's spirit from the S crystal that was used to revive the FOS have somehow tainted it?

Here is a thread I made that has a timeline of events from the first appearance of Jor-El up until Blue. I have to update it soon:

http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=82426

[curiosity]

Originally posted by Randy G.
Everyone is giving this way too much thought. :\
Clark was standing right there, in the fortress (last episode) when Jor-el told him he would pay the price for disobeying him. The final shot was a close-up of Clark, then a flash of light.

Jor-el froze him. ;)

Bizarro could have been standing off to the side.

[Bruce Knight]

Originally posted by xrayvision
^^That wouldn't make sense. If Jor-El wants Clark to save the planet and has any clue about Bizarro's presence or Brainiac trying to return (not saying that he does), then this would be a very stupid move on his part. He definitely knows of dangers that exist.

I doubt it was the Jor-El AI of the true Jor-El that did this. It had to be someone else...probably Zor-El. I have a bunch of theories on Zor-El and how he has always been in Clark's ship & the cave. Maybe it's true. Or maybe my other theory about Jor-El's "humanity" not having been downloaded into the crystal that created the FOS but instead into Lionel explains it yeah but jor-el has always been about sacrafice right? he's more concernd about clarks destiny then a couple of humans dieing by there worldy problems or of bizzaro,but were all intitled to our opinion,but this is after all a lession and somtimes lessions hurt and deal with sacrafice

[xrayvision]

The main reason I think it's not Jor-El who did that is that Jor-El would know that there are beings present who could destroy Earth very quickly if Clark was trapped. Unless this is Smallville's version of Clark's training, which I really hope is not the case. It would be a copy of the movie's training, which I thought was horribly done.

[svtwamedfan05]

Now that I think about it made he's been trapped in the ice since Blue. Remember after Jor-El said you have defied me for the last time. Maybe that's when Jor-El trapped him in there because Clark didn't listen to him. Then back at the farm was not the real Clark.

[xrayvision]

Of course it wasn't him. Clark was not seen in this episode till the very end. I knew as soon as I heard his voice and saw how he acted with not going to find Kara and supporting Lana's Isis company that it wasn't him. I was actually waiting at the end for them to show Bizarro's face distorting in the light as he hugged Lana. I don't read spoilers, but it was obvious to me.

[svtwamedfan05]

I'm talking about at the end of Blue that it wasn't the real Clark

[xrayvision]

Ohhh. Well, I don't know. You bring up a good possibility. I wonder where the real Clark was if that wasn't him at the end of Blue.

The thing that gave away Bizarro would be back to me was the title of the episode. Since Gemini is the constellation of twins (happens to be mine), I was expecting Clark's "twin" to show up. Since no black-k was involved, I knew Bizarro would return. Especially after how "Clark" was behaving.

[espn_justin]

Fine's ship arrived to earth after the crystals, so the fortress is not under control by Zod, that theory is dumb

[BadToad]

Jor-El, but it has nothing to do with "tough love". Its cruel, sadistic, and twisted along the lines of the Lionel Luthor guide to parenting. I certainly hope they find a way to explain why AI Jor-El is such a messed up machine, otherwise I hope Clark NEVER goes to train with him. Its psycho!

[TWistim]

Originally posted by BadToad
Jor-El, but it has nothing to do with "tough love". Its cruel, sadistic, and twisted along the lines of the Lionel Luthor guide to parenting. I certainly hope they find a way to explain why AI Jor-El is such a messed up machine, otherwise I hope Clark NEVER goes to train with him. Its psycho!

I couldn't agree more!

[Chlarker2008]

Bizarro had to have frozen him, the question is but how?

[chantal]

Originally posted by xrayvision
Well, if Bizarro has been back long enough, he would have known about the eclipse and the FOS would be the most likely cause. And if BizarroVan is right (that Zor-El created the Bizarro phantom) then Zor-El (on Krypton) would have told him that the eclipse would be a sign that the crystal had been placed in the FOS and would signal that Zor-El was back.


I forgot about the eclipse. That would explain how Bizarro got away from Mars. There was an eclipse there, too.

[stripe7]

Jor-El froze Clark, not so much as punishment but to educate Clark. Bizarro showing up is incidental.

[Doug]

Originally posted by KAL-EL_3
why is bizarro doing good things like saving chloe and telling Lana how much he loves her all that?

to stay under the radar of the others......

[BadToad]

Jor-El froze Clark, not so much as punishment but to educate Clark. Bizarro showing up is incidental.

There's nothing to be gained from that sort of education. You can't punish someone into doing what you want them to do. Clark has free will, and AI Jor-El has absolutely no right to do this to him. Its really twisted and cruel. And it only teaches Clark to reject AI Jor-El all the more, and turn away from his kryptonian side.

[Nobodey]

Martian Manhunter has had his loyalty to Clark questioned once, allow me to do it again.
What if Bizzaro was released on Jor-El's orders? We already know that MM's loyalties lie with Jor-El, not Clark.
Bizarro could be on a work release program. A kind of "do this and this and this and we will let you go free". Jor-El is the puppet master, Bizzaro is the puppet and MM is the strings that control him.
Its the only thing that explains Bizzaro having a long term agenda. He seems more of an instant gratification guy to me. But here he being as crafty, careful and devious as anyone on the show including Lex and Lana.
(Lana devious, wow, who would have thought)

[moviefan2k4]

Here's my theory, and in fact, I'd love to see it done as a flashback in a future episode...

(We go back to the end of "Blue", where Clark is being reprimanded by his father.)

Jor-El: "You have failed me yet again, Kal-El, and this rebellion cannot pass without consequence."

(A white light fills the Fortress. Gazing through the brightness, Clark is horrified to see Bizarro approach him.)

Clark: "It can't be..."

Bizarro (smirking): "Oh, yes it can. You want your pathetic, disgusting life back? You'll have to fight me."

(A truly massive super-fight ensues, and finally Clark is beaten. He tries to stand, only for his sadistic double to attack again, knocking him back to the ground.)

Clark: (yelling, presumably to Jor-El) "What do you want?!"

Bizarro: "Your old man can't help you now. You got yourself into this, by spending so much time defending useless mortals. You brought this on yourself...and now your life is mine."

Clark: "What are ylou gonna do...kill me?"

Bizarro: "Tempting, to say the least...but I know nothing of what could happen to me, should you die. So, I have another plan."

(Activating the main control console, Bizarro encases Clark in a frozen Kryptonian crystal. He then flies away, and one last sentiment escapes his lips.)

Bizarro: (evilly): "Lana..."

[xrayvision]

Originally posted by espn_justin
Fine's ship arrived to earth after the crystals, so the fortress is not under control by Zod, that theory is dumb

I'm not sure what theory you're talking about. But Zod could be in control of it now. If his phantom was trapped in the S crystal there is a possibility that it was transferred from the crystal to the FOS. We still don't know how that crystal worked. It was more important to show Lexana than the crystal to TPTB.

Although it's not likely, it's still possible that Zod could be controlling it. I would think Zor-El is if it's not Jor-El.


Originally posted by BadToad
There's nothing to be gained from that sort of education. You can't punish someone into doing what you want them to do. Clark has free will, and AI Jor-El has absolutely no right to do this to him. Its really twisted and cruel. And it only teaches Clark to reject AI Jor-El all the more, and turn away from his kryptonian side.

Very true. A Superman who is forced into his destiny is one poor Superman. It's not even Superman. That's why I want the training to be done right and nothing like the movies. I want it to be on Clark's terms.

[ClareKent]

I'm almost convinced that it was Jor-El who frozed Clark, to kinda teach him a lesson, but it'd be a really good twist if it turns out to be Bizarro who did it. Unfortunaly we'll have to wait another whole month to know :(

[kentfamily]

I think Joe-El did. Remember in Blue Joe El had warned Clark about a consequence.

[moviefan2k4]

Seven weeks, to be exact....yep, it sucks big-time. :(

[Titan27]

I believe Jor-El was the one who froze Clark in the FOS. I also agree with myankskent that Jor-El did it to teach Clark a lesson. I don't know what it is going to be. But with Bizarro in Clark's place could this lead to: the time Lana spends with Bizarro Clark will change her attitude about certain topics that (she gave thought to) and when Clark comes back and sees her views she reverted back to; he will eventually realize this will never work out. Is this how they are going to end Clana? But of course some people have been hoping for that for a long time. I just remember that Al Gough said that at the end of this Season Clark would be looking at Lois in a different "light" and with their plans for a Season 8; Clark and Lana will eventually have to break up mutually; like the comic books.

[Mini Wolfsbane]

I just know Bizzaro did it all on his own.
How, though, has yet to be answered.

[ginnyfan]

Originally posted by allisonhaggerty
What the hell was that about?
What is happening to Clark, TPTB have thrown me off the scent this time.

Interesting. I didn't think about the fact that Bizarro may have infiltrated the fortress and trapped Clark. Hmm...

[j-kent]

you'd have to fall for it too easy if you think Jor-El froze Clark..there's something else to this all...

[Superbeard]

Jor-El froze Clark.

Not sure what he was intending to accomplish by that (maybe he's being forced into some more training in a mental realm or something while he's frozen).

Jor-El is not in kahuts with Bizarro, that's stupid. He wouldn't intentionally allow him to wreak havoc, I just think this is coincidence. If he was in kahuts, Bizarro would've returned at the logical time that Clark would've been assumed to return, not a month later, which is probably how long it took for Bizarro to get out of wherever he was, however he did that.

Option two is that after a struggle following whatever Jor-El tried to do to "punish" Clark, Bizarro returned, somehow trapped Clark, and deactivated the Fortress.

Brainiac is still working on rebooting on human-made computer, I don't think he's capable of accessing the Fortress' technologies just yet.

Zor-El is out of the picture and was long gone and was not involved in any way with Clark's entrapement, that was a lame story arc to begin with.

I'm gonna have to say it's a tie between Jor-El and Bizarro trapping him, but they were not working together; one thing just happened to happen after the other.

Extension on previous theory: Jor-El's consequence was forcing Clark to finish his training, by whatever means (making him unable to escape that holographic blue pillar thing we saw when Chloe walked in on him), and while Clark was incapacitated/distracted, Bizarro infiltrated the Fortress, froze Clark mid-trance, and shut down the Fortress.

And I have no idea how Clark's gonna get out of there. I would say he just uses his heat vision, but (a) he would've already done that by now and (b) it's Kryptonian structure, and probably not easy to break.

[Theshadow129x]

It was jor-el that froze Clark and Clark truly deserves it. He has become my least liked character on this show. he deserves to rot in there. he doesnt do anything right and continues to whine about why life isnt fair.

okay seriously, when, or if he comes out I hope he is able to shake himself out of this apathetic stage he's been in for the past 7 years and gets to do some REAL SUPERMAN stuff.

[Superbeard]

I want Clark flying all of Season Eight.

[supermandude10]

Maybe the Eclipse Zor-El made in "Blue" was to awaken Bizarro? Because the sun weakens him, if there was no sun, Bizarro could fly back to Earth. And it would make since the Zor-El created the bizarro phantom because he was interested in cloning so he and Lara could be together and take over Earth.

[Theshadow129x]

^ i could buy that. yeah that actually makes alot of sense. thats a good way for them to explain his return.

[WickedJenn]

Originally posted by supermandude10
Maybe the Eclipse Zor-El made in "Blue" was to awaken Bizarro? Because the sun weakens him, if there was no sun, Bizarro could fly back to Earth. And it would make since the Zor-El created the bizarro phantom because he was interested in cloning so he and Lara could be together and take over Earth.

That's a really good theory, it very well could be.

Remember in the beginning of season 5, Jor-El kept telling Clark that there was a "balance" that had to be righted in nature...thus Jonathan Kent eventually dying. Not saying Jor-El caused his death, but he was just trying to get Clark to see that you can't do things in life without other things becoming affected.

I'm wondering if this was more a Bizarro doing than Jor-El's...Jor-El was again I think, hinting to that balance in nature and applying this same principle.

[Kal-EL1126]

Originally posted by KAL-EL_3
why is bizarro doing good things like saving chloe and telling Lana how much he loves her all that?

Because he has to make it beleivable to eveyone that he is actually Clark. Clark wouldn't just stand by and let that bomb go off.

[ballofsteel]

Originally posted by Kal-EL1126
Because he has to make it beleivable to eveyone that he is actually Clark. Clark wouldn't just stand by and let that bomb go off.

If you watch the season premier you'll get the real answer. He tells clark he has ALL his thoughts and memories EXCEPT he won't make the same mistakes. Bizarro basically is clark but with an evil twist. He will still maybe care for Chloe and Lana, just like he did with Lois at the start of season. Bizarro won't hide his emotions like clark either.

[Mello Penelo]

Originally posted by Superbeard
I want Clark flying all of Season Eight.

I don't want season 8. I want The CW to falter and die.

[All about Clark]

I really don't think Bizarro had anything to do with Clark frozen, I think that was all Jor-el. Also Jor-el wouldn't be fooled by a fake Clark IMO.

[hemmy]

Originally posted by myankskent
It would appear to me that Jor-El did it, since he did say at the end of Blue that Clark would have to pay for the consequences of his actions. So my guess is that Jor-El trapped Clark hoping to destroy Clark's life, that way Clark would stop making human emotional decisions and accept his destiny.

Clark's human life is already supposed to be dead; see 5x03 - Hidden

[moviefan2k4]

I think by "human life" has was referring to the environment he's always known...family, friends, etc. If Clark awakens to a world vastly different from the one he left, he'd have no choice but to trust Jor-El.

[nk_84]

Jor-el told clark they'd be consequences, then he froze him and let out the naughty Biz, who MM had put away, but since it's Jor-el we're talking about he can free him from whereever he was put.

So yeah, Jor-el did it cause Clark...again, ignored him.

[xrayvision]

Originally posted by Superbeard
Zor-El is out of the picture and was long gone and was not involved in any way with Clark's entrapement, that was a lame story arc to begin with.

I'm not convinced that this is the case. We have no idea what other consequences there are of Clark inserting the blue crystal.

They have yet to explain the huge difference between Jor-El's AI as it has been presented throughout the series and the behavior of the real Jor-El. There are too many possible explanations to come to a decision. They never explained the fake Kara in Covenant. The fake Kara thing makes me think that it may really be Zor-El's will in the FOS and back in Clark's ship and even in the cave. The ship message in Rosetta sounds like it came from Zor-El's mentality. They can still reveal that the heart to Clark's ship was switched out by Zor-El back on Krypton...or perhaps Zor-El left the heart that Clark inserted in Rosetta (looked much different than the one in the Pilot) somewhere on the Kent farm back when he visited Earth on one of his trips and that Clark inserted the wrong ship heart. This could happen if he finds the one Jonathan showed him back in the Pilot hidden somewhere in the barn as he's looking for something and accidentally stumbles onto it.

I just created a new theory on this that says that Zor-El could have trusted Dax-Ur with the heart he created for Clark's ship and it was switched when the HOPE symbol was seen. You can check out the theory here:

http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=83296

[maddib]

what I want to know is, is it some kind of magical ice. Surely with CKs heat vision gizmo he'd be out of captivity in seconds.

Or is he in suspended animation just as Kara was for all those years.

[last man of krypton]

I think it was Jor-El; if I told my son "don't resurrect Kryptonian criminals" and he did it anyway, I might be tempted to thrown him in a block of ice. :p

[DestinyAw8s]

The stuff pertaining to Isis and Lana's research came from her own mouth. He simply gave an opening about Lex and wanting Lana's help and she proceeded to supply all the rest. And it's obvious that he doesn't care a fig about Kara, if he even knows who she really is. Still, it was odd that he apparently knew that Lana was alive. He didn't seem surprised or anything, and knew right were to go to find her. And it was kinda weird how he knew so quickly that it was Brainiac. Who was he anyway, before he was put in the phantom zone? Maybe he isn't just some random phantom. After all, he was the only one that actually got Clark's DNA and other things. I don't know. Yeah, something is fishy. He's way too comfortable taking Clark's place. Like he knows Clark won't be putting in an appearance any time soon.

And I'm not gonna be so quick to judge Jor-El. It is an AI, after all, and highly subject to mechanization by an outside source with the knowledge to do so.

Ok, I give up. My brain hurts.:\

[kp1984]

Why don't Clark just use heat vision to escape

[clana4everfan2]

Bizzarro is saving Chloe because if she suspects something since she is smart. Then his cover is blown. And she knows all about Clark, Lex, and what Clark has been up to. Not to mention she has healing powers which mean she can be used somehow in what ever he has planned. Also for him to team up with Lana she knew info all about Lex his secret experiments, Chloe. Lana is Clark's emotional weakness so why not use her to get the info he needs. Besides Bizarro told Clark how he didn't deserve this life but he did. To Clark Bizarro represented that dark side that he could become meaning like Lex.

[xrayvision]

Originally posted by kp1984
Why don't Clark just use heat vision to escape

Because it's not really ice. It's some Kryptonian mineral.


Originally posted by DestinyAw8s
The stuff pertaining to Isis and Lana's research came from her own mouth. He simply gave an opening about Lex and wanting Lana's help and she proceeded to supply all the rest. And it's obvious that he doesn't care a fig about Kara, if he even knows who she really is. Still, it was odd that he apparently knew that Lana was alive. He didn't seem surprised or anything, and knew right were to go to find her. And it was kinda weird how he knew so quickly that it was Brainiac. Who was he anyway, before he was put in the phantom zone? Maybe he isn't just some random phantom. After all, he was the only one that actually got Clark's DNA and other things. I don't know. Yeah, something is fishy. He's way too comfortable taking Clark's place. Like he knows Clark won't be putting in an appearance any time soon.

And I'm not gonna be so quick to judge Jor-El. It is an AI, after all, and highly subject to mechanization by an outside source with the knowledge to do so.

Ok, I give up. My brain hurts.:\

BizarroVan has a theory that the Bizarro phantom was created by Zor-El. Martian Manhunter explained him as a failed experiment much like Adrian was as a Julian clone.

[STFanatic]

It might be FOS Crystal with blue sprinkles :p

[Console818]

some people are asking why bizarro saved chloe. he did it because he needed her to figure out the code for him. he's also acting lovingly with lana to get the info on project scion and all the other experiments that could stop his take over of earth that lex is doing.

i dont think jor-el "let out" bizarro. bizarro was on mars jor-el just cant make bizarro's. I think that jor-el put clark in that capsule thing to give clark part of his training and bizarro flew back himself and jor-el doesnt know that bizarro is on earth

[MrZeppo]

Originally posted by dru-zod2501
I highly doubt it was any kind of big conspiracy guys.

Jor-El (Who is Jor-El... plain old Prick Jor-El) Imprisoned Clark in the Fortress as punishment, which just happened to coincide Bizarro returning to earth. The End. Zor-El is gone, Lara is Gone, Kara's flipping pancakes or whatever she does playing human.
Brainiac is still not back up to strength enough to affect the fortress so he's still in back alleys sucking homeless folks.

Your description of Jor-El was probably the funniest things I ever read here, lol.

I have to agree with you Dru. I think you nailed it right on the head. All the theories of the Jor-El A.I being Zor-El or something different always annoy me, because it would rob the show of Jor-El.

The Jor-El A.I represents his knowledge, his will, and was sent to guide him through all the days of his life. But it doesn't represent his love, his compassion. When Lionel acted as Jor-El's vessel, he displayed such love and compassion for Clark. We know he was Krypton's hero, a brilliant scientist who saved lives.

The A.I is just a fancy program with one sole mission, prepare Clark for his destiny at all costs. I do think that a little bit of Jor-El's compassion managed to leak through into the program. He did allow Clark to leave the FOS to get Chloe help in "Arrival", he did save Martha and Lois, and gave Clark the oppurtunity to go back in time to save Lana. But in the end, it's a program, not the real person.

[xrayvision]

Originally posted by MrZeppo
Your description of Jor-El was probably the funniest things I ever read here, lol.

I have to agree with you Dru. I think you nailed it right on the head. All the theories of the Jor-El A.I being Zor-El or something different always annoy me, because it would rob the show of Jor-El.

The Jor-El A.I represents his knowledge, his will, and was sent to guide him through all the days of his life. But it doesn't represent his love, his compassion. When Lionel acted as Jor-El's vessel, he displayed such love and compassion for Clark. We know he was Krypton's hero, a brilliant scientist who saved lives.

The A.I is just a fancy program with one sole mission, prepare Clark for his destiny at all costs. I do think that a little bit of Jor-El's compassion managed to leak through into the program. He did allow Clark to leave the FOS to get Chloe help in "Arrival", he did save Martha and Lois, and gave Clark the oppurtunity to go back in time to save Lana. But in the end, it's a program, not the real person.

The eclipse in Blue is very revealing to me. Why else would Zor-El block out the source of his powers other than to have the proper conditions for Bizarro to return.

This means a few things are possible, though not yet certain:

1. Zor-El created the Bizarro phantom (as speculated by BizarroVan), which is why he would help him and perhaps take a liking to Bizarro

2. Zor-El's clone in Blue, even if he did have all the memories of the original who & perhaps did create the phantom that became Bizarro, would not know that the phantom escaped the Phantom Zone and took possession of a piece of Clark's DNA. Why would a being whose DNA was trapped inside a blue crystal all that time know that? The only way he would know about Bizarro escaping the PZ and taking the form of Clark is if he existed in a non-physical form all along---as the AI seen inhabiting the FOS. I think the blue crystal allowed Zor-El's AI (which I think was in the FOS if not all along, for a while) to inhabit the body created by the DNA in the crystal. I think Zor-El's AI was pissed that Clark destroyed the crystal & took his physical body away and that's why he trapped him.

We know in Blue the AI in the FOS told Clark that the crystal was created by Zor-El and had no place in the FOS. That could have been a sign that the AI of the real Jor-El was occupying the FOS until the blue crystal was inserted. Or maybe that really was Zor-El's AI & was using reverse logic with Clark and knew Clark would let his emotions get the better of him after all the previous occasions of Clark disobeying.

I just don't think Jor-El would trap Clark in such dire circumstances.

[MrZeppo]

Originally posted by xrayvision
The eclipse in Blue is very revealing to me. Why else would Zor-El block out the source of his powers other than to have the proper conditions for Bizarro to return.

This means a few things are possible, though not yet certain:

1. Zor-El created the Bizarro phantom (as speculated by BizarroVan), which is why he would help him and perhaps take a liking to Bizarro

2. Zor-El's clone in Blue, even if he did have all the memories of the original who & perhaps did create the phantom that became Bizarro, would not know that the phantom escaped the Phantom Zone and took possession of a piece of Clark's DNA. Why would a being whose DNA was trapped inside a blue crystal all that time know that? The only way he would know about Bizarro escaping the PZ and taking the form of Clark is if he existed in a non-physical form all along---as the AI seen inhabiting the FOS. I think the blue crystal allowed Zor-El's AI (which I think was in the FOS if not all along, for a while) to inhabit the body created by the DNA in the crystal. I think Zor-El's AI was pissed that Clark destroyed the crystal & took his physical body away and that's why he trapped him.

We know in Blue the AI in the FOS told Clark that the crystal was created by Zor-El and had no place in the FOS. That could have been a sign that the AI of the real Jor-El was occupying the FOS until the blue crystal was inserted. Or maybe that really was Zor-El's AI & was using reverse logic with Clark and knew Clark would let his emotions get the better of him after all the previous occasions of Clark disobeying.

I just don't think Jor-El would trap Clark in such dire circumstances.

Sorry, I don't agree. :)

Zor-El may have created Bizarro, who knows, I won't persume to say? (Nice theory though. I like the idea.) But I don't think he knew anything of Bizarro's existance on Earth or that it was freed from the PZ. He told Kara he was blocking out the sun so that humans would die out. That's true. If we had no sun, as a species we probably wouldn't survive.

If the MM placed Bizarro somewhere in our solar system where sun was always shining (the far side of the moon, the far side of Mars, whatever...), that would have made an effective prision for him. But when Zor-El tried to wipe out life on Earth using the eclipse, it just freed Bizarro. It was just a circumstance that Bizarro took advantage of and used to free himself.

And I don't think the Jor-El A.I is omnipotent or anything. I think putting Clark in statis inside the crystal is just his way of punishing Clark (he may be teaching him something in there, I can't tell). But I don't think the A.I knows that the world is in danger from Bizarro or Brainiac. It usually doesn't know what is going on in the world unless Clark comes to it asking questions. And I don't think Clark is really in any danger inside the crystal, he's a tough kid, he can handle it. LOL

[I_am_LEX]

ok... he's only 'frozen' because he's doing some training people. jor-el tried to let him choose it for himself but he wouldnt, so he had to lay the law down, just like fathers have to do to their sons every now and then.

something tells me that when clark returns, he's gonna be much more 'kryptonian'. thats' prly why we'll see him fly before too long.

if he isnt training... then how the hell would you expect him to defeat both Bizzaro and Brainiac!?!? That is gonna be awesome. He's gonna have some help though... from Kara and MM. It's gonna be quite interesting. I can't wait!!

[Scribe]

Or maybe Jor-El got tired of Clark ignoring his destiny and has frozen Clark while he downloads all that info into his head. :)

[haltoe]

I agree that Jor-el did it because Jor-el seems to have turned into a stone-hearted man of "principle" who lacks compassion and humanity. Have Clark pay for "the consequences of his actions"? Clark wanted to see the woman who gave birth to him. What is so terrible about that?

I also remember Jor-el telling Clark that Kara's whereabouts and welfare weren't his concern. Kara had done what Jor-el wanted, recognize and repudiate her father's evil. So how much gratitude does Jor-el have? None! What a sorry example of a person without compassion! And yet we're supposed to look upon Jor-el as some kind of fount of wisdom. Ha!

I admit I didn't see "Gemini" but based on the forum discussion and what I saw of Jor-el in past episodes I'd say he did do Clark in and Jor-el showed himself for what he really is. He's not some fount of wisdom but is more like a child abuser.

[Nobodey]

Originally posted by I_am_LEX
ok... he's only 'frozen' because he's doing some training people. jor-el tried to let him choose it for himself but he wouldnt, so he had to lay the law down, just like fathers have to do to their sons every now and then.

something tells me that when clark returns, he's gonna be much more 'kryptonian'. thats' prly why we'll see him fly before too long.

if he isnt training... then how the hell would you expect him to defeat both Bizzaro and Brainiac!?!? That is gonna be awesome. He's gonna have some help though... from Kara and MM. It's gonna be quite interesting. I can't wait!!
Now theres a theory I like. It follows with AI Jor-El's MO of "do what I say or..".
It also makes one wonder if Clark was trapped, or if he volunteered..

Hmm.. What if.. What if Jor-El told Clark about the Eclipse thingie freeing Bizarro and the fact that he maybe sensed Milton Fyne was coming back, so Clark would volunteer to an "idiots guide to being invincible". To learn to use his powers at the God levels the comic book Sups can as opposed to what a farmer and his wife taught him. He may not have known the amount of time to pass because, as biz-clark said at the beginning of this episode, time works a little different in the FOS.

ps. If Milton Fyne/Brainiac froze him, a lot of are going to be eating crow. =)

[DestinyAw8s]

Fine is way to weak to be effective right now. As far as I can tell he's still the slimy, black ooze and is trying to revive or remain alive by sucking the trace minerals from humans. That could take a very long time. He'll have to find another way to, not only get his form back, but have enough power to do any kind of nastiness. So, how could he trap Clark?

[ginnyfan]

Originally posted by Scribe
Or maybe Jor-El got tired of Clark ignoring his destiny and has frozen Clark while he downloads all that info into his head. :)

That's what I thought when I first watched it. But after reading comments suggesting that Bizarro did it, I watched again. The fortress is really dark and eerie, and the last time Clark was downloading info he wasn't frozen in a block of ice.

It's either Jor-el or Bizarro and right now I'm leaning toward Bizarro.

[MixTKO]

I still think Jor-el is responsible for trapping Clark in the FOS. How would Bizarro have enough info to infiltrate the FOS and Jor-el's AI. Brainiac is not himself yet and still trying to re-boot. Maybe he's downloading Clark with his training and all the info about kryptonian technologies. Brainiac and Bizarro getting lose were things put into motion before Jor-el told Clark there would be consequences IMO.

[83kaL]

Well bizarro has Clark's DNA dont forget

[Theshadow129x]

Originally posted by MixTKO
.......Brainiac and Bizarro getting lose were things put into motion before Jor-el told Clark there would be consequences IMO.


Nah i disagree. Everything that has happened on the show is a result of Clark's bad decisions. Jor-el put him on ice for a reason, what is it I dont know but it wasnt for Bizarro to take his place.

Jor-el told Clark to collect the crystals thats why he tried to send Clark away from the farm at the end of season 2. had he had listened we wouldnt have gotten a Brainiac, a Zod, a Black thursday, a Bizarro, and a Supergirl! everything thats bad is his fault for not listening and being hard headed. Idiot!!

Seriously I wish people would come away from the whole Jor-el is evil thing and just take notice that all of this going on is Clark's fault! Seriously, he's an idiot and makes bad decisions everyday yet when Jor-el is telling him to fulfill his destiny and think with logic he's the bad guy? No. Whenever you think with emotion you make bad decisions its a good lesson if you ask me.

[xrayvision]

Originally posted by Nobodey
Now theres a theory I like. It follows with AI Jor-El's MO of "do what I say or..".
It also makes one wonder if Clark was trapped, or if he volunteered..

Hmm.. What if.. What if Jor-El told Clark about the Eclipse thingie freeing Bizarro and the fact that he maybe sensed Milton Fyne was coming back, so Clark would volunteer to an "idiots guide to being invincible". To learn to use his powers at the God levels the comic book Sups can as opposed to what a farmer and his wife taught him. He may not have known the amount of time to pass because, as biz-clark said at the beginning of this episode, time works a little different in the FOS.

ps. If Milton Fyne/Brainiac froze him, a lot of are going to be eating crow. =)

I mentioned the same thing in another thread that Jor-El may be forcing him to train. But that's not something I want. The last thing I want is for Clark to become who he becomes because he was forced into it by Jor-El. That is the biggest failure that TPTB can make. If that happens then any Superman that comes out from this show is a joke. If what Clark is doing now is what will be his training, then TPTB have failed. They basically copied the horrendous way it was done in the movie but with different circumstances.

[DestinyAw8s]

Maybe Jor-El is trying to give Clark a glimpse of what might happen if the future Superman is not there to create a balance. Maybe Jor-El is taking advantage of Bizzaro's return to kinda open CK's eyes or something. Clark has to realize the importance of his destiny one way or another.

[xrayvision]

What bothers me is that this Clark is incapable of making his own destiny. That's what Superman should be. I can't believe how badly they messed this up. If this happens, it will be a lightswitch using Jor-El's own will to make Clark to become Superman and everything that's happened to Clark since the Pilot was meaningless.

That's why I hope what happened to Clark is a result of Bizarro. Right now, I think it could go either way.

[Bruce Knight]

many of you forget that this show is not canon to the comics its the creators own take on clark kent and supermans origins that means they can shape this version of clark kent how they want

[DestinyAw8s]

It could be Bizzaro. He certainly knew a lot more about Clark's location than he should have. And I don't blame Jor-El for stuff that happens to Clark. He simply said there would be consequences for Clark's actions. For every action, good or bad, there is a reaction, good or bad. Jor-El gets it, Clark doesn't.

[Nobodey]

Originally posted by Bruce Knight
many of you forget that this show is not canon to the comics its the creators own take on clark kent and supermans origins that means they can shape this version of clark kent how they want

Once again I agree. However to ignore the influence every single Superman comic and tv show has had upon the current Smallville show is shortsighted. (With possible exception to the George Reeves show, haven't seen an influence from there yet..)
If Smallville is only influenced by the other tv shows/comics by 10%, (and lets be honest, thats a low estimate considering the root of the show is the silver age Superboy), then it is easy to assume that Clark will be fully powered by the end of the season. Especially since the producers have announced that the no tights no flights rule is a thing of the past.

Of course I could be wrong, maybe it is bizzaro supes that flies, not the real thing. =) We will see =)

[Bruce Knight]

i think the whole clark not flying is in his head or somthing i mean if every kryptonion can fly sept clark theres somthing wrong with him.

[Coyote]

HaHa! Clark is an ice cube! It would be cool if they couldn't make any more shows because of the strike, and then the show got cancelled and Clark had to stay trapped that way forever.

[Bruce Knight]

no it wouldnt i want somtning a flow of a cape or him glowing differant colors and then swoosh a red blur in the sky, just give us somthing dont DONT end it like this

[xrayvision]

Originally posted by DestinyAw8s
It could be Bizzaro. He certainly knew a lot more about Clark's location than he should have. And I don't blame Jor-El for stuff that happens to Clark. He simply said there would be consequences for Clark's actions. For every action, good or bad, there is a reaction, good or bad. Jor-El gets it, Clark doesn't.

I'm hoping the consequences Jor-El spoke of were Bizarro's return. If he knew about the eclipse and how it would allow Bizarro to return, then it's feasible.

[msleggie]

I think you may be on to something....

[DestinyAw8s]

Originally posted by xrayvision
I'm hoping the consequences Jor-El spoke of were Bizarro's return. If he knew about the eclipse and how it would allow Bizarro to return, then it's feasible.
Yeah, and I don't get why everyone is so down on Jor-El. I have always regarded his words as more warning than threat. You can warn someone until you're blue in the face, but that doesn't mean they have to obey you. They will just go off and do want they want, no matter that bad things are gonna happen. And that doesn't mean that you caused the bad things, it just means you had the foresight to figure out that those bad things would more than likely happen. And I don't remember Jor-El actually doing anything to Clark, other than taking away his powers. And I don't consider that a punishment, anyway. I think that Jor-El simply gave up on Clark when he didn't return to the FOS and decided to give him what he wanted most. What he had always wished for above anything else. His greatest desire. To live a normal, perfect live with his precious Lana. So, Jor-El grants his wish and Clark has no powers. But what does Clark do? He dies . . . right away! So Jor-El has to step in once again and bring his stupid son back to life and give him back his powers, because maybe, just maybe, they might let him live long enough to become the man he hopes his son will be.

Does Clark learn anything from this? I don't know. But I'm leaning toward Clark running off to Lana with the blue ring if the situation hadn't been so dire. So no, I don't think Jor-El is trying to punish or control Clark. I think Clark has always had, and still does have, freewill to assess situations and make his own decisions. Unfortunately, Clark lacks any kind of real foresight or the emotional fortitude to put this knowledge above his own wants. So, what's Jor-El supposed to do? At least he does continue to warn Clark, eventhough, he never listen to him. It's probably a good thing that Jor-El is an emotionally challenged AI. Any other kind of parent would have probably torn their computer-generated hair out by now.

[chloefan]

I think Jor-El did it. He said about as much at the end of the last episode.

[xrayvision]

I would like to see a flashback scene next episode with how Clark got in that crystal.

[litew8]

Originally posted by Coyote
HaHa! Clark is an ice cube! It would be cool if they couldn't make any more shows because of the strike, and then the show got cancelled and Clark had to stay trapped that way forever. :rotfl: :lol: :lol:
That would be HILARIOUS!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I think Jor-El trapped Clark in ice and released BiZaRrO.
I think Jor-El is controlling BiZaRrO.
BiZaRrO's actions are WAY TOO TAMED.
WAY different than the first time we saw him.

Maybe Jor-El wants BiZaRrO to secure Brainiac, so
Jor-El can reprogram him. Then they'll go after Kara and stop her
evilness.

[theWatcher]

Jor-El said at the end of episode Blue that there would be consequences for his actions.

[xrayvision]

^^And I'm hoping the consequences were not Jor-El's doing, but something Jor-El knew would happen (Zor-El causing the eclipse & allowing Bizarro to return) if Clark disobeyed again. This would be the best thing for them to do to perhaps preserve Jor-El's "character" and make Clark learn once & for all so that he doesn't become Superman because Jor-El forced him to.

[Jor'el_Ted]

I agree that Jor-El simply grounded Clark and locked him in his room. Like a good parent he knows how to punish kids when they disobey him too much.

Though i wouldn't be surprised if Jor-El knows about Bizzaro's return and is just allowing Clark to stop him cause he's grounded. Maybe Clark is still awake in that ice prison and Jor-El lets him watch Bizzaro impersonate him so he can see the damage he's doing first hand and it'll force Clark reflect on all the times he acted without thinking of the consequences.

God, i hope the writters strike hasn't set the show back too far. Would be a shame if they had to end this season early without any kind of resolution.

[DarkseidNow]

I, like many people, have had issues with how AI Jor-El has been portrayed on Smallville. But when you think about it, wouldn't you be a little fed up if your progeny, who happened to be the only hope of your long dead people, is basically an apathetic retard?

Yes, the crystal prison is a bit extreme, but Clark continues to defy Jor-El over and over again without learning from his mistakes. Part of that is just bad writing on Almiles' part, but still.

And its not just that fact that Jor-El tends to be right every time Clark goes against him. Its the fact that Clark's acts of defiance create bigger messes that affect his loved ones and the world at large.

This last screw up by Clark not only was the very reason why Kara is now a powerless amnesiac in Michigan, but it almost permanently cost Clark his powers along with causing a permanent solar eclipse.

So good! Let Jor-El give him a much needed spanking!

[msleggie]

You know what DarkseidNow, you are so right, if Jor-El did put Clark in ice, Clark had it coming. If he would have just listen for once in his life, then Kara wouldn't be in the state she's in, and Bizzaro wouldn't be on the lose (without him knowing about it)

[WickedJenn]

Originally posted by xrayvision
^^And I'm hoping the consequences were not Jor-El's doing, but something Jor-El knew would happen (Zor-El causing the eclipse & allowing Bizarro to return) if Clark disobeyed again. This would be the best thing for them to do to perhaps preserve Jor-El's "character" and make Clark learn once & for all so that he doesn't become Superman because Jor-El forced him to.

This is what I agree with the most.

If you look at Jor-El's past actions, from what I recall, he never directly caused anything bad that happened to Clark or Earth. Mostly he warned him that you can't go doing certain things without them affecting something else. Kind of like a chain reaction...Jor-El spoke to Clark in "Hidden" about the balance of nature having to be righted.

Perhaps Jor-El is hoping (as much as an AI can hope) that after this Bizarro incident, Clark will finally learn once and for all to look at the big picture.

[DarkseidNow]

Originally posted by WickedJenn
Perhaps Jor-El is hoping (as much as an AI can hope) that after this Bizarro incident, Clark will finally learn once and for all to look at the big picture.

HAH!, one can hope. Remember that this is Smallville, where young Clark Kent would be on the short bus if he was raised on Krypton, so I doubt Clark will learn anything from this lesson.

[WickedJenn]

Originally posted by DarkseidNow
HAH!, one can hope. Remember that this is Smallville, where young Clark Kent would be on the short bus if he was raised on Krypton, so I doubt Clark will learn anything from this lesson.

I know, it's a definitely a long shot.

The Kryptonian short bus eh...well there it may be a Kryptonian short ship :D

[xrayvision]

Well, I'm not sure how long the series will be going on after this. There may be just 6 episodes left in the series, so if that's the case, they will probably finally make Clark learn. I consider this poor writing either way, because Clark should have been developed in a more consistent and steady (even if slow manner) regardless if there is another season or not. This 1 step forward, 2 steps back is horrible.

[WickedJenn]

Originally posted by xrayvision
Well, I'm not sure how long the series will be going on after this. There may be just 6 episodes left in the series, so if that's the case, they will probably finally make Clark learn. I consider this poor writing either way, because Clark should have been developed in a more consistent and steady (even if slow manner) regardless if there is another season or not. This 1 step forward, 2 steps back is horrible.

I agree, I understand showing his struggle for a while (especially in high school), but by now, IMO, he should have a firmer grasp on what he's got to do.

I mean yes I know all about how we'll never see him in the suit or fly, etc, but come on, at least give him a big push towards that direction.

[xrayvision]

That's what the majority of the people here want WickedJenn. I could care less if he ever wears the Superman suit, as long as the show leaves him off at a point where we can say "yeah, this guy's definitely got what it takes to be Superman" I would be very happy. And I wanted the journey in getting to that point to be consistent without so much regression.

[WickedJenn]

Originally posted by xrayvision
That's what the majority of the people here want WickedJenn. I could care less if he ever wears the Superman suit, as long as the show leaves him off at a point where we can say "yeah, this guy's definitely got what it takes to be Superman" I would be very happy. And I wanted the journey in getting to that point to be consistent without so much regression.

Exactly, I could care less if he ever put on the suit. I just want the road towards it to get going :D

[DarkseidNow]

Originally posted by xrayvision
That's what the majority of the people here want WickedJenn. I could care less if he ever wears the Superman suit, as long as the show leaves him off at a point where we can say "yeah, this guy's definitely got what it takes to be Superman" I would be very happy. And I wanted the journey in getting to that point to be consistent without so much regression.


SING IT!! That is exactly my biggest peeve with Smallville, bigger than Clark's unhealthy fixation on Lana.

I would have no big issue with the length of his journey if it was actually progressing.

But with this show, its always one step forward for Clark, with a small sprinkling of Canon-Dust to appease the fanboys, followed by three gigantic steps backward.

[WickedJenn]

Originally posted by DarkseidNow
SING IT!! That is exactly my biggest peeve with Smallville, bigger than Clark's unhealthy fixation on Lana.

I would have no big issue with the length of his journey if it was actually progressing.

But with this show, its always one step forward for Clark, with a small sprinkling of Canon-Dust to appease the fanboys, followed by three gigantic steps backward.

If I were there I'd give Clark a big ol' Jersey kick in the a$$, even if he didn't feel it!

[DestinyAw8s]

Originally posted by WickedJenn
If I were there I'd give Clark a big ol' Jersey kick in the a$$, even if he didn't feel it!
But you would feel it. hehe But I agree, he's a lead butt in more ways than one.

[WickedJenn]

Originally posted by DestinyAw8s
But you would feel it. hehe But I agree, he's a lead butt in more ways than one.

I might not as much if I put on my toe shoes, they have a big ol' block of wood inside :D

[DestinyAw8s]

Originally posted by WickedJenn
I might not as much if I put on my toe shoes, they have a big ol' block of wood inside :D
And don't forget to eat your spinach, too. :D But seriously, I hope Clark can see what's happening to the life he knows with the imposter in place. He should learn something from it. Maybe when he thaws his brain will thaw too.:rolleyes:

[WickedJenn]

Originally posted by DestinyAw8s
And don't forget to eat your spinach, too. :D But seriously, I hope Clark can see what's happening to the life he knows with the imposter in place. He should learn something from it. Maybe when he thaws his brain will thaw too.:rolleyes:

He looked so weird frozen, like a doll.

I hope so too, maybe he got brain freeze big time and it will start to put him in gear when he thaws :lol:

[berniepooh]

I don't think Kal El is in ice. I think that is a Kryptonian Krystal formation and he is undergoing part of his training by force. Like, a form of alien osmosis or something.

[WickedJenn]

I'm calling it ice for simplicity's sake :)

[DestinyAw8s]

Originally posted by WickedJenn
I'm calling it ice for simplicity's sake :)
Yeah, me too. And for the sake of a little joking.:p You know, frozen in time, frozen in place, frozen in just about everything. No? hehe

[WickedJenn]

Originally posted by DestinyAw8s
Yeah, me too. And for the sake of a little joking.:p You know, frozen in time, frozen in place, frozen in just about everything. No? hehe

Yep exactly!

[KAL-EL_3]

JOR-EL DID NOT FREEZE HIM!!!!!!!!!

JOR-EL DOES NOT PUNISH CLARK SO PEOPLE STOP SAYING THAT!!!! he states that what clark does, does not happen without CONSEQUENCE. this means clark releasing Zor-el and his mother resulted in the sun being blocked out which OBVIOUSLY released bizarro. How Clark was frozen will surely be revealed in the next couple episodes.

Jor-el has never punished clark. only tried to guide him in the RIGHT choices. Season 5 when clark died and he was brought back it was "the tide of fate" that demanded the life of another (his father) for the life of his own (clark). which has nothing to do with Jor-El punishing anyone! it has to do with clark making BAD decisions

[The Krypton Knight]

I don't know. Originally, I was sure that Clark being in the ice/crystal was Jor-El's doing, whether as a punishment or some kind of forced training. But I think what Kal-El 3 and others are saying on these boards have changed my mind. Like Kal said, Jor-El didn't say punishment, he said "consequence". There is a difference, and it would make sense that he knew that Bizarro could be released by the eclipse, that Clark caused to be created. And now Clark will have to deal with the consequence of that action. Which, since he's doing his best Han Solo impression at the moment, he's not doing a very good job of.:)

Also, some have speculated that the AI in the fortress has actually been Zor-El all along. I think it would be outrageous if they tried to pull that. It would be a sucker move, building up the Father/Son bond (or lack thereof), Clark's struggle to understand his Father's intentions, etc, then making all of it worthless with a shock move like "TA DA, it was Zor-El all along! So Clark, you can just go on and forget about everything that the AI in the Fortress has ever told you, cause it was just a maniac that wanted to rule Earth! In fact, no need to go back to the Fortress ever again!"

[berniepooh]

Oh Krypton Knight.....that would truly be awful!!! They have credited Terence Stamp as the voice of Jor El since Season 2 (I think). To pull a switch like that now would be sooooolame not to mention cheap!

Say it isn't so!!!:confused:

[The Krypton Knight]

I know! It would make like every FoS scene irrelevant, cause anything the A.I. said to Clark would be Zor-El's crazy talk.

They better not!:mad:

[CryptOrchid]

Why do people keep talking about the Eclipse as a factor of freeing Bizarro?

The Eclipse was to affect Earth, but it was implied that MM had imprisoned Bizarro on Mars.

To anyone who knows basic astronomy, an Eclipse on Earth as a celestial event has nothing to do with Mars, its position in the solar system, or the position of its moons.

And even if it did, remember that Bizarro needs kryptonite to supercharge and heal his wounds. Just because there was an eclipse on Mars, does not mean that the darkness would have been enough to allow Bizarro to heal from his defeat by Clark and MM.

Now, alternatively, it was discussed that there was a "don't ask don't tell" policy about what MM does with his prisoners. We saw MM put his fist through a Phantom... in this case, perhaps Bizarro was too strong for him to destroy, and perhaps Jor-El did imprison him (possibly in crystal at the FOS), and the Eclipse and the presence of various Kryptonites played a factor in his release.

My point, though, is that if he was "on the sunny side of Mars" (which doesn't exist because Mars does rotate), an Earthly Eclipse would not have mattered.

[xrayvision]

Originally posted by CryptOrchid
Why do people keep talking about the Eclipse as a factor of freeing Bizarro?

Because it's the most likely reason that Bizarro is back.

The Eclipse was to affect Earth, but it was implied that MM had imprisoned Bizarro on Mars.

We're not exactly sure where he was put. The sunny side of Mars could have been a figure of expression. I am guessing that it was Mars though.

To anyone who knows basic astronomy, an Eclipse on Earth as a celestial event has nothing to do with Mars, its position in the solar system, or the position of its moons.

But see, this wasn't your basic eclipse. Chloe or someone else in Blue announced that the Moon wasn't blocking the sun. That's why the eclipse didn't end in a few minutes and lasted much longer. Whatever Zor-El did caused the sun to be blocked before its rays even reaches Earth. And since Mars is the next planet after Earth, one would assume that Mars and the entire distance between Earth & Mars was dark as well.

And even if it did, remember that Bizarro needs kryptonite to supercharge and heal his wounds. Just because there was an eclipse on Mars, does not mean that the darkness would have been enough to allow Bizarro to heal from his defeat by Clark and MM.

Well, when Clark has kryptonite pulled away from him at night (like in Fade when he was buried alive by Graham with kryptonite on him), he doesn't need the sun to shine on him to feel better. Clark retains a charge of the yellow sun and I'm guessing Bizarro does the same with green-k. As long as it was dark for him to return to Earth without flying in direct sunlight exposure, he would have had enough energy to return and recharge on Earth.

Now, alternatively, it was discussed that there was a "don't ask don't tell" policy about what MM does with his prisoners. We saw MM put his fist through a Phantom... in this case, perhaps Bizarro was too strong for him to destroy, and perhaps Jor-El did imprison him (possibly in crystal at the FOS), and the Eclipse and the presence of various Kryptonites played a factor in his release.

I doubt any crystal would have worked. His phantom shattered the one Jor-El gave to Raya when Clark used it against him in Phantom. And crystals seem to only work on phantoms and not corporeal villians.

My point, though, is that if he was "on the sunny side of Mars" (which doesn't exist because Mars does rotate), an Earthly Eclipse would not have mattered.

See my explanation above. It makes a lot of sense actually. And I said the same thing, Mars does rotate. So Bizarro did get some nighttime to recover (if MM didn't move him around) but if he wanted to leave Mars & go to Earth, it would mean that he would have to fly towards Earth while being directly exposed to the sun, which would have probably killed him. This eclpise blocked out the sun for Earth & all planets beyond it to make it possible for Bizarro to return (whether or not that was the intent of Zor-El).

[The Krypton Knight]

So Bizarro did get some nighttime to recover (if MM didn't move him around) but if he wanted to leave Mars & go to Earth, it would mean that he would have to fly towards Earth while being directly exposed to the sun, which would have probably killed him. This eclpise blocked out the sun for Earth & all planets beyond it to make it possible for Bizarro to return (whether or not that was the intent of Zor-El).

Exactly:)

[Welling_is_pretty]

I have to admit that I never even thought that Jor-El froze Clark until coming here. I just assumed that Bizarro did it to take Clark's place. But after reading through several threads it does make sense that Jor-El might have done it. Now I want to know who did put Clark on ice! Was it a super time-out as suggested or was it Bizarro's way of keeping Clark out of the picture?

[xrayvision]

I went back and watched Blue again today and I am starting to understand why a lot of people are thinking that Jor-El punished him. Like Welling is pretty, I also never thought about that until reading posts about it here. But I still don't buy into it. I think this is one of those things where they make it look like it's one thing, but then going back they show something completely different happening. Examples of this include Chloe's safehouse blowing up (in Covenant), Lana blowing up (in Phantom), Chloe being about to be raped (in Vessel), as well as a few more instances that I can't think of at the moment. But all of those scenarios ended differently.

I think we'll get a full version explanation of how Clark got where he is. Whether it was Bizarro showing up and triggering a freeze sequence or whether it's forced training by Jor-El (which I hope it's not), we will probably find out. I can see this as a suspense builder during the winter break, and it worked.

[litew8]

Well, I'm not buying the BiZaRrO did it story. No way BiZaRrO could have been able to get close to the crystal control panel and pull a sequence that would trigger some sort of trap. Who knows, maybe he used super-speed. But then that would be cheap. I don't see it.

I'm starting to think MM is EVIL now.
Not sure how exactly, but I'm thinking he is EVIL and has something to do with it. Why hasn't Clark EVER asked Jor-El about MM? Uh-huh.

[xrayvision]

^^You know, that idea about MM being crossed my mind. I dunno. I mean if he was on Bizarro's side, I don't think the Bizarro phantom would have ripped his guts out in Phantom. And if he trapped Clark, it is certainly helping Bizarro. I don't think MM is evil. When Kara becomes her normal self again, she may make amends with MM since he was right about Zor-El.

[litew8]

What about the poster that says Supergirl Friend or Foe? I don't know, this show is starting to give me a headache.

[darkone]

Originally posted by litew8
What about the poster that says Supergirl Friend or Foe? I don't know, this show is starting to give me a headache.

There are Lex/Kara interactions in the future.My guess is he manipulates her to reveal Clark's secret.

[xrayvision]

I've been waiting for more Lex-Kara interactions. It started getting very interesting towards the end of Fierce when he found her.

[The Krypton Knight]

Why hasn't Clark EVER asked Jor-El about MM?

I was wondering the same thing. You'd think that would be the first thing that he did after meeting him. If I was Clark, the first thing that I would suspect is that he is one of the Zoner's. But, I can't see them making MM evil, unless they are planning on really messing with the Mythos/Comics. They could def have some interesting storylines with that in Season 8 tho! Goodbye Lex, Hello Evil Martian Manhunter:)

[Kalista]

I wondered about the Martian Manhunter being shady when Bizarro returned.

[Welling_is_pretty]

Originally posted by xrayvision
I think this is one of those things where they make it look like it's one thing, but then going back they show something completely different happening.

I think we'll get a full version explanation of how Clark got where he is. Whether it was Bizarro showing up and triggering a freeze sequence or whether it's forced training by Jor-El (which I hope it's not), we will probably find out. I can see this as a suspense builder during the winter break, and it worked.
Hmmm, interesting. Yes, I can see that. Whether they are trying to make us think Bizarro did it and it will really be Jor-El or vice versa, I see that they would do that sort of thing.

I think we'll get a full version eventually (how long that will take, I don't know). I still hope it's the Bizarro thing though.

[Imzadia]

Originally posted by BizarroVan
I don't think he did it to kill Clark, unless the theory that the Jor-el AI is actually Milton Fine.
But only time can tell(which sucks cuz i dont want to wait till january)

I agree that it's Jor-El who froze Clark, but he would Never 'Kill' Clark. He's only ever 'served' to give Clark guidance and information about his heritage. He would know a whole lot more by now if he would've visited the FOS more often. I don't think that BrainIAC or Zor-El could have any Control over the FOS.

In S5, when M. Fine was trying to manipulate Clark into releasing Zod, Clark was the only one who could utilize the Crystal Control device. Zor-El told Kara in "Blue" that 'only Kal-El could remove the Blue crystal that Clark had placed in the Crystal console." Another thing, Jor-El instantly knew that Clark had the Blue Crystal in his possession when he first arrived at the FOS in "Blue", AND who had designed it. The FOS was probably designed to only respond to Clark's particular DNA, and only through deceptive manipulation can it be influenced by anyone else.

:cool: So, those are my opinions and theories. I think that Jor-El is the one who froze Clark, but I'm hoping it's a process that will be beneficial to Clark in helping him move closer toward accepting his destiny. Maybe he's downloading Clark with some much needed information while he's holding him captive. Otherwise, it'll be just a stupid waste of time, IMHO. :\

[minerva73]

My vote goes to Bizarro.

My theory:

He could have been able to get into the Fortress of Solitude because he has Clark's DNA and he probably came back to Earth via the solar eclipse that Zor-El caused in "Blue" since he wouldn't be able to return earlier because of the sun being out and he'd be really weak. So he might have came to Earth at the end of "Blue" and spied on Clark so he'd know everything that's been going on with him or at least what he needs to know since it was basically all recapped after the eclipse in "Blue".

When Bizarro talked to Lana in "Gemini", he spoke very vaguely about the subject, so he waited for Lana to give him more insight on it. And he must have known about Lana trying to take down Lex because of what Clark said to Lana in "Blue".

I'm also guessing that he followed Clark into the FOS at the end of "Blue" and turned it off. That's why when we saw Clark in the Fortress at the end of "Gemini", there were no lights at all. That would also mean that Jor-El would have to be powered down too, so he can't release Clark from the crystal chamber.

Here's a picture of no lights in the FOS:

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t109/megamonster255/th_TheFortressofSolitude.jpg (http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t109/megamonster255/TheFortressofSolitude.jpg)

And I guess that it all connects. But that's my theory anyways. Probably wrong, but you never know. :)

[xrayvision]

I think one possibility is that Jor-El may have started forcing some training on Clark and Bizarro, like Chloe in Arrival, saw him standing in that column of energy without Clark seeing him because Clark was being forced to concentrate. And during this forced training, Bizarro shut down the FOS so that the energy Clark was in did not vanish, but instead froze him in some special crystal/ice. So this is a combination of the 2 theories.

If this is true, I would hope Clark would be pissed at Jor-El for doing it and blame him for Brainiac's return because the training was forced on him. I would hope that Clark would reject that training and then finish the incomplete training in his own way so that Jor-El does not force him to become Superman.

I'd still rather have it be entirely Bizarro's doing.

[nathanjamesk1]

Originally posted by KAL-EL_3
why is bizarro doing good things like saving chloe and telling Lana how much he loves her all that?


from my understanding in the superverse, is that Bizarro has often found him self in..... semi.. heroic actions.

wiki described his actions as 'Anti-Hero (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-hero)' action. where, unknowingly, he does heroic stuff in the heroes absence

[berniepooh]

Isn't he just doing all this stuff to test the waters and ensure that no one can tell the difference between himself and the REAL Clark?
I think it is deliberate and he working an unknown agenda for a specific goal.
He is truly EVIL!!!

[xrayvision]

Something tells me that Smallville's Bizarro won't be an anti-hero but 100% evil.

[Super_Kara_2007]

Jor-El of course. In "Blue" as soon as Jor-El told Clark "I'm sorry my son, but this can not go without punishment", there was huge light around Clark.

[LoveHurts38]

Bizzaro

[xrayvision]

Originally posted by Super_Kara_2007
Jor-El of course. In "Blue" as soon as Jor-El told Clark "I'm sorry my son, but this can not go without punishment", there was huge light around Clark.

He didn't say punishment. He said consequences. Consequences could mean punishment or it could mean that other bad things could happen that Jor-El could have known would happen, such as the conditions for Bizarro's return to Earth. If MM spoke to the Jor-El AI in the FOS after incarcerating Bizarro, this would mean that the FOS Jor-El knows where Bizarro was. And I think Jor-El even knew that Zor-El's crystal would cause an eclipse.

[litew8]

^
Yea, but JOR-EL TOLD Clark that "his (Clark's) DISOBEDIANCE cannot go without concequence". To me, Jor-El is sick of Clark's constant disobediance, and he decided to punish him. Which leads me to believe that Jor-El is teaching Clark a lesson, by releasing BiZaRrO (controlling him) and allowing Clark to see what happens when he doesn't listen.

[xrayvision]

I disagree. One of my reasons for thinking it's not Jor-El who did it was that the same scenario happened in Season 5 in Hidden. After Clark was resurrected by Jor-El (who was in Lionel), he told him that the life of someone close to him will be exchanged for his. We all know that Jonathan Kent died & it was his life that was exchanged for Clark's. Jonathan's death was a consequence of Clark's defiance to return to the Fortress before sundown in Arrival. Yet, in this example, it was not Jor-El who punished Clark.

Jor-El in fact told him in Arrival that the consequences would be grave if he didn't return on time:

Jor-El: Do not fail me, Kal-El, for the consequences will be grave.

Jor-El simply resurrected Clark because he knew how Earth would not survive without him. It was Clark's defiance that made him lose his powers, which led to his death in Hidden. Had Clark not lost his powers, Jonathan's life would not have been exchanged with his.

I'm trying to show that Jor-El talking about consequences does not necessarily mean punishment for Clark. In my example, Jor-El had the foresight that Clark's powers would disappear if he failed to obey. It can very easily be true in Blue that Jor-El had the foresight to know about Zor-El's eclipse and how it would allow Bizarro to return if Clark disobeyed him and placed the crystal in the FOS. Therefore, it's very possible that the consequences Jor-El spoke of may not be punishment, but instead be Bizarro's return, which he had the foresight to know would happen.

I think that makes the most sense. Because if I were Clark and there was a Jor-El who let a being as dangerous as Bizarro loose, I would shut down the FOS to prevent such a maniac from doing the same in the future. And it wouldn't make sense. It would mean that Jor-El is stopping Clark from doing anything to stop Brainiac, who in the past tried to destroy the FOS. And guess what---with Bizarro having Clark's DNA and most likely being able to hold the FOS crystals without dying, Brainiac can destroy Jor-El. So unless Jor-El is really Zor-El, which wouldn't make sense because he would have encouraged Clark to insert the blue crystal rather than doing the opposite, he would be making it very possible to destroy himself.

As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure that it was Bizarro who put Clark on ice & did so by shutting down the FOS (which is why it was so dark inside) and is now searching to free Brainiac before someone (Kara or MM) frees Clark so that the 2 can destroy the FOS. And destroying the FOS now will be very easy once Brainiac is back.

[litew8]

xrayvision wrote:
"Jor-El simply resurrected Clark because he knew how Earth would not survive without him. It was Clark's defiance that made him lose his powers, which led to his death in Hidden."

...

"In my example, Jor-El had the foresight that Clark's powers would disappear if he failed to obey."

- - - - - - - - - - - -
Your first suggestion seems (to me) out-weigh your second. You said that it was Clark's defiance that made Jor-El take away his powers. Why did Jor-El take away Clark's powers? Because Clark did not listen to him. Clark disobeyed Jor-El, so Jor-El took away his powers. That sounds like a direct punishment. Jor-El took his powers away because Clark did not listen to him.

The consequences that occurred after Clark had his powers taken away from him (by Jor-El), were consequences after the fact. The fact remains - Jor-El took his powers away because Clark did not listen. If what you are saying is accurrate, Jor-El created the consequences (for that instance). The consequences would not have happened if Jor-El hadn't taken Clark's powers away for disobeying him (Jor-El). And it would imply that Jor-El had foresight of those consequences if he were to take away his powers.

Now fast forward to the present.
If it is anything similar to when Jor-El took Clark's powers away (when Clark died), it is because Jor-El created the memorandum in conjunction to the foresight.

- THEN -
The first time, Clark did not obey Jor-El.
Jor-El took Clark's powers away. (THE CONSEQUENCE)
Clark died.
Clark was brought back to life.
In exchange (afterward consequence), Johnathan died.

- NOW -
Clark disobeyed Jor-El's direction.
Jor-El said it cannot go without consequence.
Jor-El froze clark inside of the FOS. (THE CONSEQUENCE)
BiZaRrO is released and controlled by Jor-El.
Clark sees what a fool he's been for the last 7 years.

[TECHWON]

Originally posted by xrayvision

BizarroVan, I never thought about Zor-El creating the Bizarro phantom. That would be something if Zor-El created him and is also in control of the FOS now, which wouldn't surprise me after the blue crystal was placed in the FOS.

THAT WOULD MAKE PERFECT SENSE

[STFanatic]

The trailer for next week was awesome ;)

[Imzadia]

Originally posted by STFanatic
The trailer for next week was awesome ;)

:D YEAH!! I saw it, too. It WAS awesome. However, it said that the New episode is scheduled to air on Jan. 31. ...not next week. ;)

[STFanatic]

Whoops, I meant "Next Episode" :D

[xrayvision]

Originally posted by litew8
Your first suggestion seems (to me) out-weigh your second. You said that it was Clark's defiance that made Jor-El take away his powers. Why did Jor-El take away Clark's powers? Because Clark did not listen to him. Clark disobeyed Jor-El, so Jor-El took away his powers. That sounds like a direct punishment. Jor-El took his powers away because Clark did not listen to him.

I have to revise my opinion. After checking out Clark's conversation with Jor-El in Lionel in Hidden, where Jor-El told him that it was Clark's choice to relinquish his powers. Other than the fake Kara, Jor-El hasn't lied to Clark, and I think it was Clark who chose to give up his powers, though he may not have been informed of the exact consequences of not returning. He was however told that the consequences would be grave and knowing that Jor-El is the one telling him this, he should have listened.


Originally posted by litew8
The consequences that occurred after Clark had his powers taken away from him (by Jor-El), were consequences after the fact. The fact remains - Jor-El took his powers away because Clark did not listen. If what you are saying is accurrate, Jor-El created the consequences (for that instance). The consequences would not have happened if Jor-El hadn't taken Clark's powers away for disobeying him (Jor-El). And it would imply that Jor-El had foresight of those consequences if he were to take away his powers.

Well, with my revised statement of Clark being the one to give up his powers, I'm saying that Clark created the consequences. The main consequence was Clark losing his powers. Everything else that followed after that were secondary & tertiary consequences of the main one of Clark giving up his powers. So in the revised statement, I would say Jor-El had the insight of what would happen if Clark was to give up his powers by choice.


Originally posted by litew8
Now fast forward to the present.
If it is anything similar to when Jor-El took Clark's powers away (when Clark died), it is because Jor-El created the memorandum in conjunction to the foresight.

- THEN -
The first time, Clark did not obey Jor-El.
Jor-El took Clark's powers away. (THE CONSEQUENCE)
Clark died.
Clark was brought back to life.
In exchange (afterward consequence), Johnathan died.

This changes now due to that piece I found from Hidden. It's now like this:

-Clark disobeyed & didn't return on time after being told that not doing so would result in grave consequences
-Clark in not returning on time & knowing Jor-El's "grave consequences" warning by choice gave up his powers (THE CONSEQUENCE)
-Clark died (a secondary consequence).
-Clark was brought back to life & doing so meant someone had to die
-In exchange, Jonathan died (a tertiary consequence)


Originally posted by litew8
- NOW -
Clark disobeyed Jor-El's direction.
Jor-El said it cannot go without consequence.
Jor-El froze clark inside of the FOS. (THE CONSEQUENCE)
BiZaRrO is released and controlled by Jor-El.
Clark sees what a fool he's been for the last 7 years.

By going back to the revised "THEN" example & seeing how Jor-El did not cause or enact the consequence on Clark, I'm showing that the consequence of disobeying Jor-El in that example was not one that Jor-El imposed on Clark, but one that Clark unleashed on himself and those around him.

Therefore, I'm saying that like in the revised "THEN" example, the consequence was Clark's fault. If Bizarro was released thanks to a series of events that would not have been possible had Clark not disobeyed Jor-El, then it's Clark's fault and anything Bizarro did thereafter becomes a byproduct of Clark's disobedience.

So I'm saying Bizarro trapped Clark in the crystal of the FOS as the main consequence Jor-El was referring to at the very end of Blue. I do not think Jor-El can control Bizarro. He couldn't even control Clark until massive brainwashing/training that took place between Covenant & Crusade and that ended when the Kal-El persona became the recessive one. Bizarro did not go through that same brainwashing process.

If Jor-El did release Bizarro and is controlling him to find out Brainiac's whereabouts so he can help resurrect him, then Jor-El is evil and has no business trying to guide Clark. And I know Jor-El isn't evil.

By the way, I provided more examples of Clark disobeying Jor-El and how in none of those occasions it was Jor-El punishing Clark:

http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=3533448#post3533448

The one I left out because it wasn't Clark's disobedience was the fake Kara incident because that was a result of Jonathan breaking his deal with Jor-El.

[Kay-Rill]

I have to say Jor-El because the look on Clarks face did not seem too suprised.

[Kay-Rill]

Ha! I was Right!

[jazel]

voted after the airing,lol
started a thread IF you guessed it, cool that somebody had the poll going.:)

[MixTKO]

I would have to rewatch the episode but I thought Bizarro said Manhunter frooze Clark in the FOS. Anybody else hear that.

[berniepooh]

I would have to rewatch the episode but I thought Bizarro said Manhunter frooze Clark in the FOS. Anybody else hear that.

No. I heard him say Jor El kept him there. And I've already watched it a second time. the first time through there was a lot of traffic and people talking in the living room and I mssed too much to catch all the dialog the first run thru.

Good episode.

[MixTKO]

Yep he said Jor-el kept him there. It was a scene where Biz tells Brainiac MM kept him prisoner that I was thinking about.

[alejandrita439]

jorel :P