Why do people keep saying no air = dead?

[Yoshua]

I mean seriously.


Claire was DEAD for hours, no oxygen in her lungs at all. Peter was DEAD from the time he was carried from Mohinders apartment to the time he was in his mothers apartment. NO BREATHING.


As soon as the objects were removed from their heads they recovered almost instantly. Kensei/Adam will NOT die in that coffin. His cells REGENERATE. they do not need nourishment to do so, that is his ability. His cells just keep reproducing at an uncontrollable rate. The only way to stop this is to COMPLETELY destroy the part of the brain that controls this, and we don't know if it is the entire brain that needs to be destroyed or just a portion of it.




I don't know why people think no oxygen = dead. Claire wouldn't be here anymore and neither would Peter if that was the case.

[The_Frag_Man]

He would enter torpor, the same as Claire and Peter did with the stick in their brain if he is without oxygen long enough.

[Yoshua]

Originally posted by The_Frag_Man
He would enter torpor, the same as Claire and Peter did with the stick in their brain if he is without oxygen long enough.



Why would you think that?


Oxygen isn't needed for the cells to reproduce with this power at all.

For instance HRG was not BREATHING when his eye and BRAIN were being healed, it healed and THEN he took a breath. Same as all the other times people were considered dead and healed.


If the brain is not physically damaged by an outside object its cells will continue to regenerate indefinately, there would be no damage from lack of oxygen because a lack of oxygen does not physically damage their cells fast enough to do any harm. They just regenerate and replace themselves constantly.




He would not go into a coma state unless an object has impaled his head and has not been removed. He will be awake for a very long time in a grave that is not his.

[Mello Penelo]

Air is needed to keep the brain alive. If his brain dies, then Adam dies.

[Yoshua]

Originally posted by Mello Penelo
Air is needed to keep the brain alive. If his brain dies, then Adam dies.


You are thinking of a normal human brain.



If that was the case then Claire would not have been alive when she was dead for HOURS before the person performing the autopsy removed the stick from her head. Her brain would have been deprived of oxygen for HOURS and without her lungs pumping oxygen to the brain the brain can not obsorb oxygen.

Its not like if we lose our lungs we can cut open our head and the air will magically keep the brain alive.



These people's abilities regenerate without oxygen obviously or else Claire and Peter both would not have been able to come back from the dead, same with HRG who was not breathing between the time he was shot and the time the blood was administered.




The brain would die in MINUTES of being deprived of oxygen, and if that was the all that was needed to kill their ability then they would not have come back. Oxygen is not needed for their cells to regenerate, oxygen is not needed for their brains to stay alive.


All that is needed is that their brains dont get shot/impaled or decapitated. And as for decapitated there is theories that they could regrow their entire body so long as their brain was intact.



Brain intact in an intact body = conscious kensei.

[Mello Penelo]

Then Adam should asphyxiate, go into his torpor and stay gray-eyed until someone digs him up.

[Yoshua]

That doesn't makes sense.



When has the body gone into 'topor' when the brain wasn't physically damaged on screen?


It hasnt. People have gone unconscious for SECONDS while the body was healing itself but awoken as soon as it had or even before it was finished.


The cells do not need oxygen to regenerate or else claire and peter would still be dead. You havent explained how they are still alive with no oxygen to their brains for hours.



The only reason they went into a coma state was because their brains were physically damaged.

[The_Frag_Man]

They don't receive oxygen damage to their brain in torpor because they aren't really dead, or obviously they wouldn't awaken when the obstruction was removed.

[Yoshua]

Originally posted by The_Frag_Man
They don't receive oxygen damage to their brain in torpor because they aren't really dead, or obviously they wouldn't awaken when the obstruction was removed.





That's my point. The body doesnt shut down unless there is something IMPAILED into the brain stopping the brain from healing.


As soon as the brain is complete again they wake up. Oxygen has nothing to do with their power to regenerate and they will continually regenerate damaged cells regardless of the cause. His brain will be whole, he will be awake becuase nothing is impeding his abilities path to fixing the damage caused by lack of oxygen.

Hence, no damage will be caused. Or will be caused at so little a pace that he is not going to pass out.


We will know for sure who is right next season, but there has been ZERO instances ON SCREEN to justify that a lack of oxygen causes the coma states. ZERO.


100% of the time it is caused by physical damage to the brain from an outside object damaging a portion of it.

[The_Frag_Man]

Think of the lack of oxygen like a stick to the brain. He would likely awaken again when his coffin was opened.

[HWichita]

I can make a leap of faith that they could regenerate after a long time without air. It's the lack of memory loss I'd like to have explained.

[Yoshua]

at best with your theory is this.


He dies from lack of oxygen, his healing kicks in he wakes up, suffocates again 7 minutes later and the process repeats.


His body wont KNOW there is oxygen there, it will jsut continually repair itself and wake up as soon as it is done.

But that is only assuming his body can't heal itself fast enough to regenerate the dieing cells before he suffocates. over and over and over again.


Originally posted by HWichita
I can make a leap of faith that they could regenerate after a long time without air. It's the lack of memory loss I'd like to have explained.



Peter proved this season their abilities can heal memory loss.

[HWichita]

What if any limits are their on Adams & Claires blood.
Days, Weeks etc.
Could they cover a emballmed corpse 10, 100 years old with blood a revise it .

[The_Frag_Man]

No, that's not my theory. He will asphyxiate from the lack of oxygen, and enter the same state as what claire and peter and noah entered upon their 'deaths' that is, a state of torpor.

He will come out of it when the obstruction is removed, in this case a lack of oxygen, so he will be stuck in torpor until he is exhumed.

[Yoshua]

Originally posted by HWichita
What if any limits are their on Adams & Claires blood.
Days, Weeks etc.
Could they cover a emballmed corpse 10, 100 years old with blood a revise it .



IMO: there has to be enough of the brain left to be healed because that is where the power comes from originally.


If the brain has been removed, they are gone for good, but that is just my theory.


Originally posted by The_Frag_Man
No, that's not my theory. He will asphyxiate from the lack of oxygen, and enter the same state as what claire and peter and noah entered upon their 'deaths' that is, a state of torpor.

He will come out of it when the obstruction is removed, in this case a lack of oxygen, so he will be stuck in torpor until he is exhumed.




Lack of oxygen is not an obstruction..... And there is NO way for his body to know that oxygen magically started to come around him. When they are in the coma state they are dead, they come out of the coma state when their brain has completely healed.



For instance claire on the autopsy table. Brain healed she woke up with her chest cut open, she had to close it herself.


She was awake for that healing process, the chest.





There is no physical obstruction unless there is a physical obstruction, lack of oxygen is not a physical obsctruction and as soon as the brain was healed their body would kick into ON mode regardless of how much oxygen is in the room around them.

[Mello Penelo]

What? How can lack of air not be a physical obstruction? What, is it magical or something?

[Yoshua]

Originally posted by Mello Penelo
What? How can lack of air not be a physical obstruction? What, is it magical or something?



If you are in a room of carbonmonoxied and no oxygen your lungs still take in the chemical and you slowly die. Lack of oxygen can take up to 7 mintues to cause death, more if you are trained to hold your breath for extended time without breathing.



If you are in a vacuum where it does not allow you to suck in any gasses then that could be considered an obstruction, however that wouldnt stop you from waking up when your brain has healed itself.



Lack of oxygen is not a physical obstruction to the brain. And it takes minutes to kill your brain without it.


How long do yout hink it takes to kill someone with a bullet in their brain? That is a physical obscruction, but one they can probably heal from..... look at HRG.

[The_Frag_Man]

Why don't they heal around the obstruction in their brain then, and walk around as retards, if you believe that Adam would heal and die constantly in this situation.

[Yoshua]

Originally posted by The_Frag_Man
Why don't they heal around the obstruction in their brain then, and walk around as retards, if you believe that Adam would heal and die constantly in this situation.



Because there is an obstruction to the brain. The brain cannot function until it is healed.


The wouldnt walk around as handicapped people because their brains would heal when the obscruction is removed and not until.



Not to mention this question has nothing to do with the actual circumstances that the people with this ability have been put through.


I have backed up what I thought with on screen scenes that indicate that the body heals without oxygen to the brain or blood flowing through the veins so long as the brain is intact enough to heal itself. And once it heals itself regardless of the condition of the rest of the body or the situation the body is in (Claire on the table completely cut open) it wakes up instantly.

[ibecj83]

Could be several possibilities, here are a couple from other fictional sources.

There was a time where Wolverine actually started cutting pieces of flesh off his body and ate them to survive, and then his body would regenerate the flesh. Talk about determination to stay alive.

Stargate Atlantis actually had something concerning this. Experimental Nanites were used to cure a girl of cancer, but then she died. Shortly she came back to life. She had an un-related heart murmur which the nanites moved onto *they were supposed to shut down after curing the cancer*.

Here's where the Air thing comes into play.

"That doesn't make any sense shutting down the heart and starving the brain of oxygen would cause severe brain damage."

"Damage they could technically fix."

"They could repair the tissue yes but the patient would lose their memories their language skills, any sense of self."

"They don't care about that, they were designed to fix the body of any physical malaties, i mean preserving a sense of self isnt one of their directives".

Now here we go. We know that Adam has this capability, his cells will preserve "sense of self" for a fact. Remember how Peter lost his memories to the Haitian, he told Peter "You can do what I can do, the brain needs to heal itself". Same goes for Claire and Peter, they had severe damage to their brains with shrapnel and when they pulled out. There were healed with no damage. Adam ain't going to die in there, his body could temporarilty shut down. Who knows what 400 years has done for his power to constantly regenerate besides immortality.

[The_Frag_Man]

'heals without oxygen to the brain' is incorrect in this instance. Lack of oxygen is not what killed the others, and the state of torpor prevents normal decay, it's a 'paused' state. They aren't healing without oxygen, but because the obstruction was removed.

[Yoshua]

Originally posted by The_Frag_Man
'heals without oxygen to the brain' is incorrect in this instance. Lack of oxygen is not what killed the others, and the state of torpor prevents normal decay, it's a 'paused' state. They aren't healing without oxygen, but because the obstruction was removed.


Claire was dead for hours with no blood pumping oxygen to her cells.

The oxygen that was IN her blood would have been used by her living cells within 20-30 minutes before being depeleted.


There was no oxygen in her system when her brain healed itself.

[The_Frag_Man]

I disagree. The state of torpor would preserve whatever oxygen was in her blood, thats why they can come back.

[Yoshua]

Originally posted by The_Frag_Man
I disagree. The state of torpor would preserve whatever oxygen was in her blood, thats why they can come back.


The body would not be attempting to breath during this period you describe. There would be NO way for the body to know what the atmosphere outside of it is unless it attempted to breath.


In every case on screen the body does not attempt to breath until it awakes from its coma state. Adam would awaken from his coma state each and every time his cells regenerated to test the atmosphere and breath, and then promptly die 7 minutes later for lack of oxygen and repeat the process.

Unless his body could regenerate faster then the lack of oxygen could damage, in which case he would never pass out or die.

[The_Frag_Man]

There isn't anyway way for them to tell if there is a stick in their brain if they are dead either.

I assume an incredibly small awareness of the cause of the damage as part of the state of torpor, or how could they possibly return when the cause was removed?

[Yoshua]

Originally posted by The_Frag_Man
There isn't anyway way for them to tell if there is a stick in their brain if they are dead either.

I assume an incredibly small awareness of the cause of the damage as part of the state of torpor, or how could they possibly return when the cause was removed?


I've said multiple times. They awaken when the brain is whole again. As in, no holes in it. They don't wake up as soon as the stick is removed, they heal and then wake up.


Step 1-
Stab claire in the head with a stick
Step 2-
Claire goes into a deathlike coma, if not death itself we don't really know.
Step 3-
Claire has stick removed from head
Step 4-
Autopsy technician leaves room
Step 5-
Claire's head heals
Step 6-
In the time it took for the tech to remove the stick, head to heal and claire to wake up the technician was no where in site.




They do not wake up as soon as the the obstruction is removed, they wake up as soon as the brain is whole.

[The_Frag_Man]

The healing process begins when the cause of death is gone.

That's why for instance, Claire didn't heal while the autopsy lady was poking around until she pulled the stick out, and why she didn't heal around the wound and become a retard.

[Yoshua]

Originally posted by The_Frag_Man
The healing process begins when the cause of death is gone.

That's why for instance, Claire didn't heal while the autopsy lady was poking around until she pulled the stick out, and why she didn't heal around the wound and become a retard.




Healing process is continual otherwise they would die of old age. They can't wake up because there is an obstruction in their brain, not a cause of death.


Technically they are very hard to kill because they regenerate so fast unless a vital organ is punctured like the heart or the lungs are removed and then the body needs to regenerate those organs first.



The body doesn't 'think' or have an 'awareness' as you seem to think it does. It just repaires the damage that is done. If there is a vital organ that needs to be replaced, then it does it.



However if the brain is punctured then it doesnt repair itself until the obstruction is removed. The body doesnt CARE what the cause of death is, or what the damage is, it just heals it. And obviously if the brain is punctured, damaged or obliterated it doesnt continue the process until the obstruction is removed.


The healing process STARTS when the body is damaged, this includes daily cell loss, which is why Adam didnt age and why they do not grow old. They are repaired instantly.


She didn't heal around the wound because the wound stopped the function of the BRAIN to heal itself. And they wouldnt become a retard as you say offensively enough because they wouldn't heal if the brain is damaged and the cause of that damage is still impailed in the brain. If the damage was a single gun shot wound as it was in HRG then the brain would heal itself. IMO the brain will heal itself unless you cut out the specific portion that controls these abilities.



Having your torso cut open and organs removed is enough to KILL you, however she woke up well before her chest was healed. It doesn't wait until the cause of death is removed. It wakes you up as soon as your brain is capable of being active, the rest gets healed as you go.



You are arguing and ignoring what they show on the screen, and I think it is because you have a pre conceived notion of how healing is 'supposed' to work, instead of how in the Heroes universe it DOES work according to what is on screen.

[The_Frag_Man]

Originally posted by Yoshua
It doesn't wait until the cause of death is removed. It wakes you up as soon as your brain is capable of being active, the rest gets healed as you go.

Exactly.

Except your brain is only capable of being active if the cause is removed.

[Yoshua]

Originally posted by The_Frag_Man
Exactly.

Except your brain is only capable of being active if the cause is removed.


Thats not true. There are many documented cases where people have nails, sticks, forks, knives impailed into their brain and are fully functional to the point of callin 911 or getting themselves into the emergency room to have them removed, and sometimes having minimal ill effects afterwards. Having something stabbed into your brain is not an instant death, however it seems that with this ability it instantly removes the ability to heal.


When the obstruction is removed from the head the healing can happen. And because the way this is portrayed I would bet that there is only a portion of the brain that is important, and if that portion is completely removed then chances are there is no coming back. A shotgun blast to the face would remove the brain and cause this.




A lack of oxygen would not stop the brain from healing itself, in fact you would pass out, the healing would heal you and you would wake up. Over and over again until someone let you out of your airless cell. Unless of course your healing ability heals you faster then you are damaged in which case you would never pass out or die.



IE: He is going to be awake a long time, or will be awake for 7 minutes at a time for a very long time.

[The_Frag_Man]

Originally posted by Yoshua
Thats not true. There are many documented cases where people have nails, sticks, forks, knives impailed into their brain and are fully functional to the point of callin 911 or getting themselves into the emergency room to have them removed, and sometimes having minimal ill effects afterwards. Having something stabbed into your brain is not an instant death, however it seems that with this ability it instantly removes the ability to heal.

Completely irrelevant. Claire was not fully functional with the stick in her head.

E: If Adam's cells can regenerate without oxygen, then why do you agree that lack of oxygen would hurt him? Why would there be any damage at all to heal?

[Superman1976]

Overthinking it a bit much people.
It's sci-fi and not suposed to be logical.

[Yoshua]

Originally posted by The_Frag_Man
Completely irrelevant. Claire was not fully functional with the stick in her head.

E: If Adam's cells can regenerate without oxygen, then why do you agree that lack of oxygen would hurt him? Why would there be any damage at all to heal?




You can not definitively say that the powers do not work without oxygen. It has not been shown on screen.


However, it has been shown that if the body has been deprived of oxygen for hours, if not days (Claire and the autopsy Peter with the glass and then HRG with a gun shot to the head having to be taken all the way back to the company to be revived) that it still can revive and heal without blood pumping oxygen to the cells.

[The_Frag_Man]

Why do they breathe then?

[Yoshua]

Originally posted by The_Frag_Man
Why do they breathe then?



Ah, so now we are getting to the basis of your argument.



By your thoughtprocess they would also die of starvation.


Breathing is a lower brain activity, involuntary but required to keep cells from dieing.


The healing process does not keep cells from dieing, it regenerates them when they do. So just as with a lack of food, your muscles would die and deteriorate, however your healing process would heal them as soon as they did.

[The_Frag_Man]

They always take a deep breathe as soon as they awaken.

E:


Originally posted by Yoshua
The healing process does not keep cells from dieing, it regenerates them when they do. So just as with a lack of food, your muscles would die and deteriorate, however your healing process would heal them as soon as they did.

So they don't need to eat either?

[Yoshua]

Originally posted by The_Frag_Man
They always take a deep breathe as soon as they awaken.



..... Because their cells have been deprived of oxygen and without oxygen they will continue to die and require regeneration. Breathing makes it so that constant regeneration isn't required to the extent of massive cell death would.



The regeneration WOULD happen either way, but without oxygen it would have to happen at a much faster rate.

[The_Frag_Man]

What mystical energy does the regeneration run on that they could exist in a complete void forever?

[Yoshua]

what mystical energy allows people to fly, time travel and gain peoples abilities from eating their brains?



Welcome to science fiction. It is a 'super human abilitiy' for a reason.

[The_Frag_Man]

I'm sure they have a pseudoscience explanation that does not involve breaking e=mc^2

[Mello Penelo]

What does relativity have to do with asphyxiation?

[The_Frag_Man]

Specifically the conservation of energy, they could not exist in a vacuum constantly regenerating without creating energy in some way.

Apparently the healers don't need to breathe or eat :rolleyes:

[Yoshua]

Originally posted by The_Frag_Man
Specifically the conservation of energy, they could not exist in a vacuum constantly regenerating without creating energy in some way.

Apparently the healers don't need to breathe or eat :rolleyes:


"Could not" probably shouldn't be used in the realm of Science Fiction.



As for don't need to. No, they dont for their cells to be regenerated, that is what having a super human healing ability is. the cells will regenerate regardless. If they had 'regular human healing' ability then they would die before their cells could regenerate.

[j-kent]

IMO this topic is being WAY overanalyzed....we don't know how their powers work exactly..we don't know the rate of which Adam can regenerate his cells, therefore we cannot know if he could enter a coma-like state if deprived of oxygen. I think at this point we should split the line between real world and sci-fi biology.

[JudasAce]

He won't die from lack of oxygen for the simple reason that if the writers had wanted him to die, they would have just had Hiro cut his head off.

The point of the coffin seen was to give him "a fate worse than death", and maybe to keep him available for the future.

Trying to apply some real world physics to Superheroes is as ridiculous as asking who would win a fight between Mighty Mouse and Superman. What will determine what happens are the dramatic needs of the story.


















Also, Mighty Mouse would whip Superman's @##.

[The_Frag_Man]

I don't think anyone was saying he would die.

E: That is, irrevocably.

[Matro]

Originally posted by j-kent
..we don't know the rate of which Adam can regenerate his cells

um... it's rapidly :rolleyes: :p

[Merfish]

he'd probably die, a lack of oxygen or the lungs inhabited by any toxin would stop his powers from working causing him to die(hiro opium) but in such a case as his where even the brain can regenerate i doubt he will die

[RedPhoenix23]

I think the lack of oxygen = death is just thinking a bit too hard, lol.

The fact that Hiro buried Adam alive is suspose to be a very cruel act on his part in order to make sure Adam suffers for a very long time for killing his father. What fate could be more horrible for an immortal?

[Xanderman]

Originally posted by Mello Penelo
Air is needed to keep the brain alive. If his brain dies, then Adam dies. This is right. Adam should eventually die, he isn't immortal, he regenerates. He can't survive forever in conditions that don't support life, he would only last longer than a normal person would. He will eventually succumb to conditions such as these.

If no one rescues him or he doesn't get out on his own, and enough time has passed after death, Adam should most definitely be dead for good. (Blood still in his system after death will only keep him "preserved" for so long. Without a constant supply of regenerative blood, as produced during living, he will eventually decompose.)

[Yggdrasill]

I think some people don't get the 'hidden meaning' behind the coffin inprisonment. Hiro doesn't want to kill Adam, he wants to punish him for killing his father. What better way to punish an immortal than to lock him up for eternity?
So it's obvious that Adam will survive, not because of the 'scientific' explanations some of you have come up with, but simply because of the meaning and context of that scene.

[The_Frag_Man]

The entire problem with it is that if you think about it that doesn't make sense.

[Yoshua]

From an interview with Kring

Kring notes. "We've given the audience no reason to believe that Adam can figure a way to get out of there. The fact that he can live forever makes this the most gruesome of internments. If this happened to any of us, at least we'd know we'd soon have the mercy of death. Not here."




Seems to be that they intend him to suffer a fate worse than death. Or torpor.


heres a link but be warned, possible spoilers
http://www.tvguide.com/news/heroes-generations-finale/071204-01

[The_Frag_Man]

I guess he didn't think it through.

[Yoshua]

Originally posted by The_Frag_Man
I guess he didn't think it through.

lol just because he didnt agree with you and it lines up with what I say?


Classic.

[The_Frag_Man]

Because it doesn't make sense.

[Yoshua]

Originally posted by The_Frag_Man
Because it doesn't make sense.


It makes sense to me, and a few others here obviously.

[The_Frag_Man]

I'm not the only one who disagrees either. It doesn't matter how many people are on a side.

[Yoshua]

Nope, only matters what the 'creator' intended :D

[Mello Penelo]

Or what he thought looked cool on the screen.

[The_Frag_Man]

Originally posted by Yoshua
Nope, only matters what the 'creator' intended :D

So what did you do when Kring admits to a mistake as he has done? Does your opinion change with his?

[Yoshua]

All of my statements stand. What I see on screen is what is happening in their world. That is what science fiction is. To be able to suspend your disbelief and enjoy a good story.


All of my reasonings in this thread are directly related to the story they have portrayed on the screen. When Kensei gets out, which I can almost garuntee he will because he is just TOO GOOD of a villain who doesn't have insurmountable powers like Sylar, I will enjoy that story too.


I doubt he will admit to a 'mistake' because this is HIS universe, HE created it. He didn't make a mistake in what happened, it was portrayed as he and the writers intended it. And if it changes later? Then it is also his universe and he can change the rules whenever he wants.


I am not a Kring fanboi, this goes for all of my science fiction works that I read and watch. When I stop enjoying the works, I stop paying attention to it. I am just here to enjoy the ride.



&*EDIT
As for the mistake he has admitted, it wasnt in what is happening in the story or how it works. He admitted that he didn't understand how the audience would react to going back tot he slow build up as he did in the first season. Obviously the first season worked so he went for it again.

He realized that the audience had the slow build up and wanted more now and plans to give more in the future. That is not a mistake in the story, it is a mistake in how the story is told.

[Iritscen]

Well, we could go around in circles with this, but I think most of us agree that Adam is not going to die in there.

Therefore, leaving aside trying to explain the power scientifically, it's interesting to think that, if he stays conscious, Adam can continue to shout from his coffin, and it seemed pretty audible to me when they pulled away in the cemetary, so if it indeed is as audible as that scene indicated, it won't take long before a grieving visitor to a nearby grave hears a lot of yelling. A few hours of shoveling by the graveyard keeper later, Adam is going to be free again.

Kring doesn't seem to think that Adam will go comatose after a few minutes, so that's what's going to be the case, because he's in charge.

[The_Frag_Man]

Originally posted by Iritscen
Kring doesn't seem to think that Adam will go comatose after a few minutes, so that's what's going to be the case, because he's in charge.

I can't help but question it.

I'm sure it's nice that you don't have to.

[Mello Penelo]

Well, I also said the dirt would have made the coffin collapse. Mythbusters proved six feet of dirt is too heavy for the lid of a casket. :lol:

[Matro]

I wonder how long Adam could last before he started trying to kill himself?

[The_Frag_Man]

Originally posted by Mello Penelo
Well, I also said the dirt would have made the coffin collapse. Mythbusters proved six feet of dirt is too heavy for the lid of a casket. :lol:

The gravekeeper is actually meant to fill in the depression. If you have ever been to a grave in the countryside and seen dips in the ground, it's because the coffin has collapsed and it hasn't been filled in.

[Mello Penelo]

I'm just saying that's how being buried alive would be debunked. The casket would collapse, Adam would be crushed, go into his torpor and stay that way until someone dug him up.

[The_Frag_Man]

Well actually Adam's coffin is beneath some concrete which may hold up the weight.

[Xanderman]

Originally posted by Yggdrasill
I think some people don't get the 'hidden meaning' behind the coffin inprisonment. Hiro doesn't want to kill Adam, he wants to punish him for killing his father. What better way to punish an immortal than to lock him up for eternity?
So it's obvious that Adam will survive, not because of the 'scientific' explanations some of you have come up with, but simply because of the meaning and context of that scene. Adam isn't immortal. He regenerates from damage/wounds/etc. He will die from lack of oxygen/food etc (life can't continue, it doesn't make sense). He can heal/revive afterward if too much time hasn't passed, but again only if he is placed in/returned to an environment that sustains human life.

[Yoshua]

Originally posted by Xanderman
Adam isn't immortal. He regenerates from damage/wounds/etc. He will die from lack of oxygen/food etc (life can't continue, it doesn't make sense). He can heal/revive afterward if too much time hasn't passed, but again only if he is placed in/returned to an environment that sustains human life.



It doesnt make refference anywhere in the show about a specific time being passed or the amount of cell death in the body. In fact the opposite.


You can completely remove limbs and organs and they will regrow.



The only refference in the show is that if the brain is missing it can not regenerate the rest of the body, my theory is that there is a specific part of the brain that regardless of the damage to the body will continually regenerate itself unless it is utterly destroyed or removed.


IE: If the brain is damaged it will not be able to heal the rest of the body, but the part of the brain that keeps regenerating will continue to do so until the object stopping it from restoring the rest of the brain is removed. Unless the part of the brain that is destroyed is the part that controls the heroe's ability to regenerate.




IE: In a cofin with an object stuck int he brain but not damaged the part of the bain that controls regeneration cenario: If the object is ever removed then the entire body will regenerate regardless of cell death.

[Xanderman]

The reason Adam is able to live forever is because his regen repairs cellular damage caused by aging. Adam will never die a natural death. However, living without oxygen is not natural, it is a kill method. Therefore he will die. Regen allows him to come back, however. But while he is still in the environment that is killing him, regen can't work. It just doesn't make sense. He should die eventually, but that doesn't mean he can't be revived afterward, again as long as too much time hasn't passed.

[Yoshua]

Originally posted by Xanderman
The reason Adam is able to live forever is because his regen repairs cellular damage caused by aging. Adam will never die a natural death. However, living without oxygen is not natural, it is a kill method. Therefore he will die. Regen allows him to come back, however. But while he is still in the environment that is killing him, regen can't work. It just doesn't make sense. He should die eventually, but that doesn't mean he can't be revived afterward, again as long as too much time hasn't passed.




In this show it has been proven more than once that oxygen is not needed for the cell repaire to work. I've also explained it in this thread.


Both Peter and Claire had both been dead for HOURS with objects impailed in their brains. Oxygen in the blood will only last 30 minutes at most WITH CPR chest compressions before massive cell death occurs, which would include the brain.


This means that if their regenetive powers required oxygen then the parts of their brains that continually regenerate would have died and they would have been dead without taking a breath of air and their heart pumping to move that air to the part of the brain that needed it.




The part of the brain that is required to regenerate does not need oxygen to do so. The rest of the body DOES need oxygen to work so basically so long as that part of the brain stays intact t hey can live indefinately under any situation. However if there is no oxygen and the cell death can't be repaired faster then the death they would only live 7 minutes at a time with no oxygen, but according to what we see on screen and the interview with kring the regeneration is faster then cell death otherwise Kensei's confinement wouldnt be an indefinate tortue, he would die, his brain would keep his regenerative part alive and when it healed the cell death he would wake up. Every 7 minutes until he got a new path to oxygen.

[Xanderman]

Blood still in their systems was keeping them in a preserved state. The no-oxygen factor doesn't apply while "working" regen-blood is in the picture. However, the regenerative effects of the blood can't last forever, it will be "used up", without new blood being produced to replace "used up" regen-blood the preserved state is a limited-time only thing. A few hours going by is apparently within the allowable time range.

[Yoshua]

Originally posted by Xanderman
Blood still in their systems was keeping them in a preserved state. The no-oxygen factor doesn't apply while "working" regen-blood is in the picture. However, the regenerative effects of the blood can't last forever, it will be "used up", without new blood being produced to replace "used up" regen-blood the preserved state is a limited-time only thing. A few hours going by is apparently within the allowable time range.


The oxygen in your blood needs to be constantly renewed to sustain cell life.


Limited time is less than 30 minutes without cpr.


And FYI the blood would not sustain anything in this situation unless it is being pumped. Cells have the oxygen in them that the blood gave them when it passed through, when the heart stops pumping your cells only have the oxygen that is currently IN them to sustain them and then they die.



Peter was taken all the way across new york in a taxi cab dead. Thats more than 30 minutes.


Claire was left dead until the police found a jane doe on a river bank, more than 30 minutes. Actually I'd say hours.



By those 2 time lines alone should show that oxygen isnt required for the healing process to remain active, but if you count into the fact that they took HRG from California to Odessa texas and then revived him..... Yeah. Oxygen isn't required.






http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_long_can_your_brain_can_live_without_oxygen

ANSWER:
Brain cells begin to die within 8-10 minutes.

[The_Frag_Man]

The oxygen within them when they 'die' is not used in their state of torpor.

[Xanderman]

I guess it all depends on whether the regen area/source in the brain is somehow self-sustaining (only requiring itself to survive) as you maintain, without need for oxygen/nutrients/etc, but I don't see how that could be the case, it defies reason, doesn't it?

[Yoshua]

Proof?



And on that side note, that statement contradicts what you have said previously.




Regeneration can not work without oxygen, and then you state that their body will know when oxygen is available, and then you state that oxygen is not needed in torpor.....



You should make up your mind, either Regeneration DOES require oxygen, or it does not.


Originally posted by Xanderman
I guess it all depends on whether the regen area/source in the brain is somehow self-sustaining (only requiring itself to survive) as you maintain, without need for oxygen/nutrients/etc, but I don't see how that could be the case, it defies reason, doesn't it?





Cell regeneration of this nature defies reasoning doesn't it?


Science-Fiction.


I only state what has been shown ON screen, not what 'logic' tells us in our universe. The people who write science fiction can write whatever they want, and no it doesnt really defy reason. If it can regenerate, it will regenerate regardless of circumstance. It is their SUPER human ability.

[The_Frag_Man]

There is no contradiction. Torpor is their death which they can return from.

[Yoshua]

either they use oxygen to regenerate, or they do not. Torpor happens when their brain is damaged. Oxygen dissipates regardless of use. When the cell stops moving it litterally has less than 30 mintues to distribute the oxygen it is carrying, or the oxygen is absorbed by the cell.



I do not think you are using Torpor right considering the actual defination is a hibernation state of lower oxygen and energy use. Not none existent energy use.


You want to use logic and real world physics, unless it contradicts what you are saying.

[The_Frag_Man]

I am using the word only because it is the closest fitting.

[Xanderman]

Personally I think the idea of a self-sustaining piece of brain matter is far less believable than the idea that remaining regen-blood in the system of a killed regen-hero can preserve some body and brain parts for a limited amount of time, regardless if it is being fully circulated/pumped or not.

[The_Frag_Man]

I'm with you, Xanderman.

E: Although, I believe that the preservation would last a fair amount of time as opposed to a limited amount.

[Yoshua]

Originally posted by Xanderman
Personally I think the idea of a self-sustaining piece of brain matter is far less believable than the idea that remaining regen-blood in the system of a killed regen-hero can preserve some body and brain parts for a limited amount of time, regardless if it is being fully circulated/pumped or not.



They've said multiple times the power is in the brain, not the blood. Take out the brain? No hero.


The power is not in the blood. Their blood may have healing properties, but they have said over and over again where the power in the healers lay. The brain.

[Mello Penelo]

Originally posted by Yoshua
The power is not in the blood. Their blood may have healing properties, but they have said over and over again where the power in the healers lay. The brain.

The power for everyone is in their genes (including the healers). Not the brain.

[Xanderman]

Originally posted by The_Frag_Man
I'm with you, Xanderman.

E: Although, I believe that the preservation would last a fair amount of time as opposed to a limited amount. Yeah the exact amount of time is anybody's guess.


Originally posted by Yoshua
They've said multiple times the power is in the brain, not the blood. Take out the brain? No hero.


The power is not in the blood. Their blood may have healing properties, but they have said over and over again where the power in the healers lay. The brain. I understand that, I'm not going against that idea. Once regen-blood has been made by a regen-blood producing hero (this is their power, to produce this blood), this blood has regenerative powers regardless of who it is pumped through. HRG, a norm, was injected with regen-blood and that healed him, damaged (shot) head/brain and all. He does not have a special brain/genes or anything, the special blood was all that was needed. Again, I'm not sure why you brought this point up as it is not really addressing the points brought up in my previous post which you were apparently responding to.

[Mello Penelo]

It's probably just a constant production of stem cells at a super-charged rate. Normally humans stop making them sometime after birth, but I'm thinking the healers' codes still code to produce stem cells.

[RedPhoenix23]

Originally posted by Yggdrasill
I think some people don't get the 'hidden meaning' behind the coffin inprisonment. Hiro doesn't want to kill Adam, he wants to punish him for killing his father. What better way to punish an immortal than to lock him up for eternity?
So it's obvious that Adam will survive, not because of the 'scientific' explanations some of you have come up with, but simply because of the meaning and context of that scene.

Exactly yo, keep preachin' on the good word.

[Yoshua]

Originally posted by Xanderman
Yeah the exact amount of time is anybody's guess.

I understand that, I'm not going against that idea. Once regen-blood has been made by a regen-blood producing hero (this is their power, to produce this blood), this blood has regenerative powers regardless of who it is pumped through. HRG, a norm, was injected with regen-blood and that healed him, damaged (shot) head/brain and all. He does not have a special brain/genes or anything, the special blood was all that was needed. Again, I'm not sure why you brought this point up as it is not really addressing the points brought up in my previous post which you were apparently responding to.



If that was the case then the blood currently in Adam's or Claires veins could reconstruct their HEAD if it is blown off.... The power is not in the blood, the power is in the brain. If all of the blood was drained then they would still regenerate. Why? Because their ENTIRE body regenerates. Not just their blood.


It just so happens that when their blood is transfused into another person the healing properties carry over. But it is not specifically the blood that HEALS the person who has the ability, otherwise they would not recover from a 2 hour 'torpor' because the blood would be dead in their condition. The brain does it, plain and simple. They have not explained it ANY other way on the screen. The brain goes, they die. They can recreate basically any limb that is cut off so long as the brain is intact.



Show me where in the show it states that the healing blood is the ORIGIN of their ability? It isn't, it is stated over and over again that the ability of the healer resides in the brain. They just havent said if it is the entire brain, or just the portion that controls the ability.


Originally posted by Mello Penelo
It's probably just a constant production of stem cells at a super-charged rate. Normally humans stop making them sometime after birth, but I'm thinking the healers' codes still code to produce stem cells.



thats actually a REALLY decent explanation. Just that stem cells definately are not blood cells and are not created in bone marrow. Granted with their abilities its possible that is where it's created and why their blood is so potent.


Anyways, good explanation. Any explanation of where the stem cells would come from OTHER than the brain stem?.... not saying just saying.

[Xanderman]

Originally posted by Yoshua
If that was the case then the blood currently in Adam's or Claires veins could reconstruct their HEAD if it is blown off.... The power is not in the blood, the power is in the brain. If all of the blood was drained then they would still regenerate. Why? Because their ENTIRE body regenerates. Not just their blood.The special blood they produce is what heals them and keeps them young. The blood being used in others to heal them as well proves that. The power that lies in the brain is the ability to produce this blood. Even if complete heads somehow grew back, it wouldn't be really them anymore anyway (I've discussed this before), they would have effectively died with the loss/destruction of their original brain. Memories/knowledge aren't stored in DNA, so they would be lost forever. A "blank" replacement brain would be produced. Whether this new person can be re-taught or whatever is another question altogether, but what made them who they were before would have been lost forever.

The brain goes, they die. They can recreate basically any limb that is cut off so long as the brain is intact.
If the brain goes they definitely die, that's not in question. As again even if blood in their system does somehow produce a replacement brain it wouldn't be them anymore (or if someone else's regen-blood got injected if their blood amount was insufficient, or if a circulation was required for the feat).

Show me where in the show it states that the healing blood is the ORIGIN of their ability? It isn't, it is stated over and over again that the ability of the healer resides in the brain. They just havent said if it is the entire brain, or just the portion that controls the ability.
I used to think this until they revealed their blood can heal others. This fact demonstrates more than anything that the blood itself is the key, but only they themselves can produce it, sourced by the brain/genes or whatever.

[gategod]

Originally posted by Mello Penelo
Then Adam should asphyxiate, go into his torpor and stay gray-eyed until someone digs him up. That would be a blessing considering...

[Portdechar]

read this: I googled Oxygen and body:

http://www.lamasbeauty.com/lifestyle/december00/body-oxygen.htm

I quote: "Without oxygen, brain cells die and deteriorate quickly"

but the brain cells cannot die and deteriorate since they regenerate "magically" therefore he cannot die!

____________________________________

to be honest with you, I hope that he remain alive and aware that he is trap for a long long time!

[Xanderman]

Originally posted by Portdechar
I quote: "Without oxygen, brain cells die and deteriorate quickly"

but the brain cells cannot die and deteriorate since they regenerate "magically" therefore he cannot die!

to be honest with you, I hope that he remain alive and aware that he is trap for a long long time! If this were true, then Adam and Claire would never have to eat, sleep, breathe or anything to continue living. This isn't the case. They regenerate from damage. So if their brain cells die because of no oxygen, they're not going to heal until the thing that is killing them (in this case, a no-oxygen environment) is taken out of the equation. Regen will allow Claire/Adam to last longer than normal people in such conditions, however they will eventually succumb to conditions that are not conducive to life persisting. Adam should go into a dormant/preserved state once he dies, his eyes should grey over (like with Peter/Claire before), and he should be preserved for an amount of time, thanks to regen-blood still present in his system. But without the ability to produce a continuous supply of regen-blood, this blood can only preserve him for so long before the important areas in the brain start to break down completely (memories/knowledge/personality etc). Once these components have degraded/decomposed (ie. a "point of no return" is reached), Adam as we know him will be dead for good, as memories and the like can't be replaced by genetic instructions (as these are additions/changes to the brain gained from life/experience). The only question is how long Adam can persist in a dormant/preserved state. Some, like Frag Man, believe this can be a very long time. This means if someone frees him at a later date, and he is placed in an environment with oxygen so life processes can be possible again, he can re-activate and live again. But personally I think preservation is a limited time only thing, not too long.

[Yoshua]

Originally posted by Xanderman
If this were true, then Adam and Claire would never have to eat, sleep, breathe or anything to continue living. This isn't the case. They regenerate from damage. So if their brain cells die because of no oxygen, they're not going to heal until the thing that is killing them (in this case, a no-oxygen environment) is taken out of the equation. Regen will allow Claire/Adam to last longer than normal people in such conditions, however they will eventually succumb to conditions that are not conducive to life persisting. Adam should go into a dormant/preserved state once he dies, his eyes should grey over (like with Peter/Claire before), and he should be preserved for an amount of time, thanks to regen-blood still present in his system. But without the ability to produce a continuous supply of regen-blood, this blood can only preserve him for so long before the important areas in the brain start to break down completely (memories/knowledge/personality etc). Once these components have degraded/decomposed (ie. a "point of no return" is reached), Adam as we know him will be dead for good, as memories and the like can't be replaced by genetic instructions (as these are additions/changes to the brain gained from life/experience). The only question is how long Adam can persist in a dormant/preserved state. Some, like Frag Man, believe this can be a very long time. This means if someone frees him at a later date, and he is placed in an environment with oxygen so life processes can be possible again, he can re-activate and live again. But personally I think preservation is a limited time only thing, not too long.



Correct, the do not HAVE to eat to live, however if they don't eat then they will be in constant pain from their stomache lining being eaten away and constantly regenerating.

Their body does not KNOW when oxygen is back in the enviroment.


For instance they die from lack of oxygen, their healing kicks in and heals the cells that died and they wake up..... to a room with no oxygen..... and die again.


Or else they never die because their healing is faster then cell death.





Explain to me how their body magically knows there is no oxygen in the room? Obviously HRG/Claire and Peter did NOT take a breath until the brain damage was healed, in which case they woke up and took a breath. Why would you think that wouldnt CONTINUALLY happen until there was oxygen?

[Xanderman]

Originally posted by Yoshua
Correct, the do not HAVE to eat to live, however if they don't eat then they will be in constant pain from their stomache lining being eaten away and constantly regenerating.If they don't have to eat to live, as you say, then their stomach lining wouldn't be eaten away at all, as regen blood is apparently sufficient to sustain all life processes, according to what you believe. They absolutely do have to eat, food is an energy and material source. How can they continuously produce regen-blood without in-taking materials from outside themselves, such as food and water. It would definitely take them longer to "starve to death" than a person without a regenerative ability however. Without food/water, they will eventually be forced into a "hibernation" or not-quite-alive/not-quite-dead phase again.

Their body does not KNOW when oxygen is back in the enviroment.
While in a preserved/dormant state or whatever it is, they are in "ready to re-activate" mode, upon removal of whatever is killing them or preventing life processes from working. A shard lodged in the head was this hindrance for Peter, and for Adam it will be a lack of oxygen. Once oxygen is back, their bodies should know, as again because of the unique state they are in (preserved or whatever).

Why would you think that wouldnt CONTINUALLY happen until there was oxygen?
Because the lack of oxygen is what is killing him. Once the hindrance to life is removed/corrected, the body can heal itself and kickstart its regular activity again thanks to the unique state of readiness it is in while in dormant mode. Their bodies are in a primed state to be kick-started back in gear while they are preserved by remaining regen-blood in their systems.

[shadow4486]

maybe he'll just go crazy from the enclosed space. It is great irony. He can never die by conventional means but his prison is where dead people rest. So without some time wasters, like a book of sudoku or Crosswords, I think he will just go insane.

[Yoshua]

Originally posted by Xanderman
If they don't have to eat to live, as you say, then their stomach lining wouldn't be eaten away at all, as regen blood is apparently sufficient to sustain all life processes, according to what you believe. They absolutely do have to eat, food is an energy and material source. How can they continuously produce regen-blood without in-taking materials from outside themselves, such as food and water. It would definitely take them longer to "starve to death" than a person without a regenerative ability however. Without food/water, they will eventually be forced into a "hibernation" or not-quite-alive/not-quite-dead phase again.

Their body does not KNOW when oxygen is back in the enviroment.
While in a preserved/dormant state or whatever it is, they are in "ready to re-activate" mode, upon removal of whatever is killing them or preventing life processes from working. A shard lodged in the head was this hindrance for Peter, and for Adam it will be a lack of oxygen. Once oxygen is back, their bodies should know, as again because of the unique state they are in (preserved or whatever).

Why would you think that wouldnt CONTINUALLY happen until there was oxygen?
Because the lack of oxygen is what is killing him. Once the hindrance to life is removed/corrected, the body can heal itself and kickstart its regular activity again thanks to the unique state of readiness it is in while in dormant mode. Their bodies are in a primed state to be kick-started back in gear while they are preserved by remaining regen-blood in their systems.



I Don't agree that they are in a 'hibernation' state. Do you have a source of where it says that definitavely?


For instance. HRG was DEAD with greyed over eyes. No HIBERNATION. Came back from a bullet wound to the eye and brain from dead. That is an example I am going to use.

For all intents an purposes Claire and Peter are DEAD when they are impailed in the head. They come back to life when the regenerative part of the brain can function again.


In the show they have stated over and over again that the only way to KILL these people is to blow apart their brain. Period. Everything else is an incorrect conjecture.


Show me instances that back up that it is a hibernation state. It isn't. It is death. HRG proves that in how it healed him. FROM DEATH.



And I wouldn't say '2 different situations' Because it isn't. Greyed out eyes and dead. Then remove the object that was hindering the healing and bam, heals again.

[Xanderman]

Originally posted by Yoshua
I Don't agree that they are in a 'hibernation' state. Do you have a source of where it says that definitavely? I'm just basing it on Peter/Claire and what happened with them. Onscreen stuff is my main source, and usually my only source.

For instance. HRG was DEAD with greyed over eyes.
HRG had greyed over eyes too?? I don't remember that. Can you provide a screen shot?

For all intents an purposes Claire and Peter are DEAD when they are impailed in the head. They come back to life when the regenerative part of the brain can function again.
They are dead, yeah, but preserved (not decaying). This is what I mean, and this is what I believe the greyed eyes means, a representation of their state until "life" is possible again and they can reactivate and heal.

In the show they have stated over and over again that the only way to KILL these people is to blow apart their brain. Period. Everything else is an incorrect conjecture.
Again, they can come back from most any damage, but that damage has to stop first. Constant oxygenlessness is continuous damage. Air must come back for life to be possible again, and for Adam to reactivate from a preserved state. Destroying their brain, removing their brain, etc, is just an immediate kill method. Otherwise they enter into grey-eye mode.

Again, if you could provide a picture of a grey-eyed dead HRG that would be great. I thought his eye/eye socket whatever was just completely destroyed/damaged whatever, but if the other eye was greyed as you say, then you've just rocked my world dude. lol But why would his eyes grey over? It doesn't make sense, he's a normal human isn't he?

[Yoshua]

Originally posted by Xanderman
I'm just basing it on Peter/Claire and what happened with them. Onscreen stuff is my main source, and usually my only source.

For instance. HRG was DEAD with greyed over eyes.
HRG had greyed over eyes too?? I don't remember that. Can you provide a screen shot?

For all intents an purposes Claire and Peter are DEAD when they are impailed in the head. They come back to life when the regenerative part of the brain can function again.
They are dead, yeah, but preserved (not decaying). This is what I mean, and this is what I believe the greyed eyes means until "life" is possible again.

In the show they have stated over and over again that the only way to KILL these people is to blow apart their brain. Period. Everything else is an incorrect conjecture.
Again, they can come back from most any damage, but that damage has to stop first. Constant oxygenlessness is continuous damage. Air must come back for life to be possible again, and for Adam to reactivate from a preserved state. Destroying their brain, removing their brain, etc, is just an immediate kill method. Otherwise they enter into grey-eye mode.

Again, if you could provide a picture of a grey-eyed dead HRG that would be great. I thought his eye/eye socket whatever was just completely destroyed/damaged whatever, but if the other eye was greyed as you say, then you've just rocked my world dude. lol But why would his eyes grey over? It doesn't make sense, he's a normal human isn't he?




His left eye was shot, his right eye was intact and greyed out. I am at work and don't have a screen shot now, but I have it on my PC at home and will see if I can lift a screen shot via media center. But trust me, definately greyed out. i've watched the last 3 episodes non stop. I'll see what I can do about a screen shot tonight.




Grey eyes = dead so far as i can tell. And when his eye was being reconstructed it was grey until he came to life and took a breath, the last thing that happened was his eyes went back to normal color, he came back to LIFE and then took a breath.

[Xanderman]

If his eye was greyed out before any blood was injected as you say, then I think I'm going to quit caring about trying to explain/understand anything this show does anymore, because that just doesn't make any sense at all. lol

I don't have a problem with the eye(s) being grey while the regen-blood is inside him , as the presence of regen-blood can account for the coloring. But pre-injection, that's definitely a problem. lol

Anyway look forward to those screen shots.

[The_Frag_Man]

I heard a theory behind that, it was that he was given blood at the scene before his heart stopped, and then Mohinder took the bullet out back at the company building.

[Yoshua]

Originally posted by The_Frag_Man
I heard a theory behind that, it was that he was given blood at the scene before his heart stopped, and then Mohinder took the bullet out back at the company building.



lol

Less theories and more on screen evidence. Had he been given blood at the seen, which Mohinder didn't have because he wasn't 'carrying' it around randomly, he would have started healing instantly just like Nathan did in the hospitol.


That being said, he was definately hooked up to the blood AT the company on screen....

lol

[The_Frag_Man]

Nathan wasn't dead, and he didn't have something in his brain.

[SV'S_immortal_hero]

this scene with adam in the coffin is identical of the werewolf in underworld 2 that had been trapped within a coffin like vault and the werewolf had been trapped in this vault for thousands of years i believe, but the werewolf although it was a god of its kind was still able to die so long as its head was damaged (this actually happened as a force stronger than it battled it), but seeing as no force was strong enough at the time to take it on entrapment was the only option

the werewolf itself lived without food or water so the only reason it was still alive in its entrapment was due to its godlike biology being the creater of all creatures werewolf-like

[Xanderman]

Originally posted by The_Frag_Man
I heard a theory behind that, it was that he was given blood at the scene before his heart stopped, and then Mohinder took the bullet out back at the company building. This could explain grey eyes pre-injection (before the scene we saw him revived), as initially enough regen-blood could only have been injected to "preserve" the brain/head area etc, not to reconstruct/rebuild it. But unfortunately we can't just assume this happened, we need on-screen proof... (but it is a possible explanation)

Got those pics yet Yoshua?:lol: I have a feeling his eyes didn't go grey until after the blood was put into him. Did they even show his eyes before? Or did they first show him "while" blood was being pumped into him?

The stages I expect:

1. dead HRG = normal dead eyes (or just EYE since only one remained intact, right? lol)
2. dead HRG with regen-blood in his brain = grey eyes (indicating life/restoration to be only steps away -- in the case of Peter/Claire before, all that was needed was to remove the lodged objects, in the meantime their brains were "preserved")
3. alive HRG = normal living eyes (regen-blood has finished doing its magic)

[Iritscen]

I can't do a screencap either because of having had to use the VCR this week, but I do seem to recall noticing in the recap in last Monday's episode that HRG had a gray eye, as well as darkened sockets, like black eyes, that faded as he was healed. That doesn't really make sense since he's a normal eye and our eyes don't change color when we die, as far as I know, but that's what I saw.

[rocana]

I think Adam will stay semi-consious, mainly due to the constant pain we would be feeling from lack of oxygen. But he'll remain alive.

Oh and the brain is the source of the power.... That's been established by Sylar and his brain-eating habits

[Xanderman]

Originally posted by Iritscen
I can't do a screencap either because of having had to use the VCR this week, but I do seem to recall noticing in the recap in last Monday's episode that HRG had a gray eye, as well as darkened sockets, like black eyes, that faded as he was healed. That doesn't really make sense since he's a normal eye and our eyes don't change color when we die, as far as I know, but that's what I saw. Grey eye(s) are fine for dead-HRG if regen-blood was present in his brain at the time (fading once life was fully restored). But if his eye was grey before any blood was injected, it definitely doesn't make sense and lacks consistency.


Originally posted by rocana
Oh and the brain is the source of the power.... That's been established by Sylar and his brain-eating habits That's not in question, not by me anyway. Although if you would further extend, the genes/dna are the ultimate source or blueprints for all powers, as they contain the instructions for the brain's design. And while the brain may be the source of Adam/Claire's regen power, the real question is, what exactly is the nature of this power? Well, it used to seem that their entire bodies/every cell was special in them, but since then things have changed. The fact that their blood can regenerate others in exactly the same way it regenerates themselves implies that their power is the ability to produce special, regenerative blood. This blood, which they constantly replenish while living, circulates throughout their entire bodies and keeps them young (constantly reversing/healing cellular damage caused by aging), and allows them to heal from injuries/sickness quickly, even regenerating lost limbs/body parts. This implies that even if the brain is rendered inactive or damaged, regen blood still present in their systems can still do its thing. In the case of Peter/Claire before, it kept them "preserved"/ready to reactivate/live again after killed by objects piercing their brains (while the objects were there, the areas couldn't be healed). Dead people with regen blood in their systems seem to be revealed by their grey eyes. The issue now, is that Yoshua says that a dead HRG was grey-eyed before regen-blood was even in the picture, and he's planning to provide screen shots to prove it. I don't see how this could be the case, but he says he's been watching the last few eps "non stop" and so we should trust him, lol we'll see I guess....

[STFanatic]

OK, I did some work arounds and got the shots.

Kind of big, but they show details.

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k292/Startrekfanatic/Heroes%20Stuff/HG-eye.gif

[Xanderman]

Cool, thanks as always Steve. That's how I remembered it as well. However Yoshua said the eye was already grey, before any regen-blood was around. The animation you provided shows him in the process of healing (meaning regen-blood is in his brain/head), thus accounting for the grey eyes just before complete revival.

[Timester]

Guys, this is easily enough, no one but the writers know what or what not can Adam's powers do. Heck, Adam can be like Lobo and regenerated from a single drop of blood in the empty void of space.

[Mischael12]

well if the brain isn't getting oxygen wouldn't it start to decay? So really if left there for 400 years, and dug up i don't think he would rejuvenated cause the brain would have decayed away.

[Xanderman]

Originally posted by Timester
Guys, this is easily enough, no one but the writers know what or what not can Adam's powers do. Heck, Adam can be like Lobo and regenerated from a single drop of blood in the empty void of space. They've already revealed Adam to be similar to Claire with the healing blood stuff. Plus Adam made a remark about the head being important, like losing the head or destroying the brain or whatever there would be no coming back from. Regenerating from a single drop of blood is highly doubtful for reasons I've discussed before, being that hairs fall out, skin cells fall off, he's been injured in fights before (so he bled), and surely he's experimented with losing a finger/toe etc as Claire has in his lifetime. If a new Adam could be rebuilt from a single cell or whatever, then there should be a ton of Adams walking around right now.


Originally posted by Mischael12
well if the brain isn't getting oxygen wouldn't it start to decay? So really if left there for 400 years, and dug up i don't think he would rejuvenated cause the brain would have decayed away. This all depends on how long remaining blood can actively "preserve" the brain after death (or in other words, how long "grey eye mode" can last). Frag Man believes it can be a very long time, I'm not so sure though.

[krpto]

I think eventually he would die and stay dead if left in the coffin though with the way his body works it could take ages and ages for that to happen. That said Tim Kring in An interview I read said something about being trapped in a coffin for eterinty being the worst punishment ever and that they have shown no sign of him ever being able to get out. Though from my personal feelings if he didn't die in a few hundred years when the graves need moved to widen a road or whatever he could excape and meet another person with hiro's powers and convince them to bring him back to our time then he could be our villian again and he would be even madder then before from being barried alive for eons. That all said it is up to the creators if they choose to bring back adam/kensei.

[j-kent]

Originally posted by Matro
um... it's rapidly :rolleyes: :p

yeah but is it so rapid it is infinite?..is the rate so constant that it supersedes the lack of oxygen...in layman's- as he's continually dying is he constantly regenerating? If not then does he proceed into a suspended state? i.e. Claire with a stick in her brain but that is the ultimate question for Adam...AND ultimately my point to my post- you can't answer how these powers work because you can't apply real-world to science fiction biology.

[Matro]

Originally posted by j-kent
...AND ultimately my point to my post- you can't answer how these powers work because you can't apply real-world to science fiction biology.

I was joking a bit, but that is basically how I feel. It's all based on what the writer's write. If they say the rate is rapidly, then it's rapidly. If they say that it's infinitely rapid, then it is. It doesn't really matter how that it is.

[Timester]

Originally posted by Xanderman
They've already revealed Adam to be similar to Claire with the healing blood stuff. Plus Adam made a remark about the head being important, like losing the head or destroying the brain or whatever there would be no coming back from. Regenerating from a single drop of blood is highly doubtful for reasons I've discussed before, being that hairs fall out, skin cells fall off, he's been injured in fights before (so he bled), and surely he's experimented with losing a finger/toe etc as Claire has in his lifetime. If a new Adam could be rebuilt from a single cell or whatever, then there should be a ton of Adams walking around right now.

You completely missed the point. It's fiction, we have that can fly and generate nuclear power without killing themselves. It's about suspension of disbelief. If the creator says that Adam can survive on the coffin, than he can survive on the coffin, simple as that.

[Xanderman]

Fiction or not Bruno, even Heroes tries to have things make sense whenever possible or follow some sort of logic. It's the basis of good storytelling.

I still don't think he's going to be awake/conscious the whole time, doesn't make sense based on the ability. He should go brain dead eventually and enter into that unique state we've seen in Peter and Claire before him -- grey-eye mode, dead and yet not dead -- preserved and ready to reactivate and live again once conditions support it.

Regen blood isn't an ongoing substitute for breathing, eating, drinking, or what have you. Life processes can't function without energy, and oxygen is needed in that process, in addition to actual food. How will his brain work to keep him conscious without an energy source? He needs food, water, air etc no matter what. I think Adam will die a really slow death in that coffin because of his regen, but that same blood will keep him preserved (in a grey-eyed state) until someone digs him out. (I just hope the Eloi find him before those awful Morlocks... :lol: seriously though I don't think regen blood would keep him preserved forever, after enough time its "regenerative properties" will be used up....constant new blood is required for limitless preservation)

I think the show will do something like this if they decide to keep him trapped for a while. And if not too long, since it will take him a while to finally die, then he will probably be found conscious, cursing Hiro's name. lol

[Xanderman]

As an extension to what I was talking about above, a good way of looking at it I think is this:

Regen-blood heals injuries and reverses damage of all kind. In effect, it keeps every part of the body in essentially "perfect working order" forever. However, for the body/brain to actually "work", it requires certain things from outside itself. Food, water, air, etc. Without these things, this "body in perfect working order" isn't going to do anything. "Life" is not possible without energy to drive it. Many people tend to get confused about what regeneration/healing actually means/entails and what it doesn't.

Imagine a car that is capable of repairing itself from any damage, never rusting or suffering the effects of time in any way. Even if it is constantly in perfect working order, without gas it isn't going anywhere. lol Same thing with Adam, without energy, brain activity can't go on, and consciousness is impossible. He will most definitely not be living in an eternal Hell. He is not immortal, he can be killed, and depriving him of life's necessities is one of those ways, it just isn't an "instant" kill method.

[SV'S_immortal_hero]

did you miss the chat that peter and adam had when they were both locked up, adam said to peter if the company could kill him they would have, that to me means the company tried everything even starving adam of food and water with the hope he would die but obviously he didnt

[Matro]

Originally posted by SV'S_immortal_hero
did you miss the chat that peter and adam had when they were both locked up, adam said to peter if the company could kill him they would have, that to me means the company tried everything even starving adam of food and water with the hope he would die but obviously he didnt

Adam also told Peter that he wanted to destroy the virus

[Xanderman]

Adam lied about a lot of things. He was manipulating Peter.

That whole escape (and being locked up together in neighboring rooms with the ability to communicate) was an obvious set-up. The Company and Adam are one and the same.

I think there's a good chance the Company will rescue Adam from his current dilemma, likely with the help of Molly.

[SV'S_immortal_hero]

sure anything adam says can be a lie but can his ability lie? peter knows with his own experiences plus what he SEEN of adams ability that they cant die so easily

[Matro]

They may not die easily, but The Company could have killed him or at least permanently incapacitated him if they wanted to.

[Xanderman]

I'm not saying Adam will be dead for good here, but that he would enter into grey eye dormancy until conditions support life again. This state might last a very long time, as some believe. I'm not sure though.

As I said, he can't possibly remain conscious forever, not without an energy supply. His power will only delay his death, but upon death he will likely go grey-eyed until someone rescues him.

[The Ninth Doctor]

The Law of Entropy dictates that Adam and Claire cannot continue consciously without oxygen and/or food, and that they can'y survive indefinately unconsciously without them either. That's not biology, that's one of the most basic laws of physics.

In any case, seeing as the next volume is "Villains", I doubt will be able to see if he can survive a great length of time.

[Xanderman]

Originally posted by The Ninth Doctor
The Law of Entropy dictates that Adam and Claire cannot continue consciously without oxygen and/or food, and that they can'y survive indefinately unconsciously without them either. That's not biology, that's one of the most basic laws of physics.Exactly, whether one is using physics, biology or just plain old logic, the grey eyed state can't last forever either. The "regenerative/preservative" properties or elements in the blood, whatever they are, will simply get "used up" eventually.

[SV'S_immortal_hero]

well its just like timester said if the creators want adam to survive grey eye'd or not then he will

[Xanderman]

Originally posted by SV'S_immortal_hero
well its just like timester said if the creators want adam to survive grey eye'd or not then he will Well they can also make Adam grow a second head or start breathing fire like a dragon does if they wanted to. My point is that they try to make things make as much sense as possible when they can, as any good show would do.

If Adam transformed into a magical dragon all of the sudden without explanation (or good explanation), would you come on to the board and say "If the creators want Adam to become a fire breathing dragon from medieval times or not then he will". Lol my guess is probably not, right?

[Socrate]

Originally posted by Xanderman

If Adam transformed into a magical dragon all of the sudden without explanation (or good explanation), would you come on to the board and say "If the creators want Adam to become a fire breathing dragon from medieval times or not then he will". Lol my guess is probably not, right?

Actually You make a loop in that statement :P we get what creators decide and we can well only comment it unless we make a Heroes remake , change things we dont like and upload it on youtube :) . As long as there is no interactive participation system like voting what should happen next (that would btw rly suck) we can only relay on creators instinct and that they know they should make fans happy by giving them what they want. But that doesn't mean they need rational explenation for Heroes powers. In fact discussing powers , how they work, beacuse of being fascinated, for fun, is ok but the moment we start taking it too seriously, scientific , its becoming geeky doesn't it? SF is Science + Fiction after all correct me if I get it wrong :). I wouldn't be suprised if creators wouldn't have many explenations we want themselves. Cause its normaly is : Ohh lets add a person who can fly! W8 w8 how he can fly? Oh well ymmm he is hero isnt he? Oh right.

Personaly I think they will find a way of bringing Adam back but for sure it will be one of 2 :
unexpected comeback - like Adam being rescued by Peter etc. cause they suddenly need his help/his ability
or
part of someones greater plan - new villians for example.

Otherwise all Hiros effort/drama of the scene of locking Adam , would be just a waste, and thats the point shows start being boring ppl comming back from dead all the time etc. and creators for sure know that. Thats why I doubt also if they will take the risk of bringing back Nathan. I know he is one of the most important Heroes, and he just started his emotional developement, but they already brought back HRG which was gr8 twist, and they brought back Maya which already made many ppl pissed about healing blood being distributed like Pepsi. 3th person would for sure result in such a topic on forum:
Omg so is noone gona die in show no more?

[STFanatic]

Hmmm...
I just had a thought. (and yes it hurt :p )

If Adam started bleeding and the blood somehow leaked into another grave, would that person come back to life?

It is the same grave yard in which Hiro's father is interred.
I know it is totally unlikely, but I am having TV withdrawals.

[Socrate]

Think there are 2 impossible conditions : person would have to be recently burried & blood would have to get into bloodstream . :)

[SV'S_immortal_hero]

Originally posted by Xanderman
Well they can also make Adam grow a second head or start breathing fire like a dragon does if they wanted to. My point is that they try to make things make as much sense as possible when they can, as any good show would do.

If Adam transformed into a magical dragon all of the sudden without explanation (or good explanation), would you come on to the board and say "If the creators want Adam to become a fire breathing dragon from medieval times or not then he will". Lol my guess is probably not, right?

i agree with Socrate its Sci-Fi not everything needs an explanation, and your right Xanderman i wouldnt come on asking for an explanation as TPTB left the world of REAL science at the door the min they made the show

[Xanderman]

Originally posted by Socrate
Ohh lets add a person who can fly! W8 w8 how he can fly? Oh well ymmm he is hero isnt he? Oh right. Whether or not flying makes sense in itself, once it is established as reality, they still try to be reasonable with it. For example, Nathan had trouble (back pains I think? can't remember) carrying the heavyset Matt around in one episode. Implying flying takes energy from Nathan, and he is limited. Even though he himself can defy gravity, he can't pick up a car and fly it around. Thus there are rules for his ability, and they clearly try to stick by the rules.


Originally posted by SV'S_immortal_hero
i agree with Socrate its Sci-Fi not everything needs an explanation, and your right Xanderman i wouldnt come on asking for an explanation as TPTB left the world of REAL science at the door the min they made the show My main point is that when choosing between two or more possibilities, one should choose the one that makes more sense or is more consistent with whatever fantastical concept they've established as possible. In this case, blood with the power to regenerate. What makes more sense for a person with this power, for them to live on and be conscious forever in conditions that don't support life? Or for them to (temporarily) "die" or go into some other state, a state we've seen before in both Peter and Claire, a grey eyed state, to be "reawakened" once the conditions favor it. All things being equal, one should always try to choose what makes more sense based on the "rules" established in the universe in question, in this case the Heroes universe. So while not everything needs an explanation, most good shows, sci-fi/fantasy or not, try to make things make sense or as much sense as they can, based on their own set of rules and realities. This is how I am able to confidently rule out the possibility that Adam will live on in any sort of eternal hell in that coffin.

[Socrate]

remember) carrying the heavyset Matt around in one episode. Implying flying takes energy from Nathan, and he is limited. Even though he himself can defy gravity, he can't pick up a car and fly it around.
Well I think its obvious Nathan has flying power not super strength :P , Matt is kinda chabby so no wonder Nathan was feeling like taking part in Strong-men competition ;D , I mean try walking/running around with someone on your back , it for sure takes ur energy 2 :) . But I know what You mean at some point, touching something doesnt make it be able to fly right, well this concept applies to all - superman etc. other flyers . If we mention that think about cloude invisiblity , we can make theories about his body cells mutating instantly somehow to make him invisible but how it goes with making stick or other objects he touches invisible 2? I only say there are many many things in heroes about abilities which we can't even discuss scientificly, so we can leave rest of them - more "normal-physical" ones too :) .

[Xanderman]

Originally posted by Socrate
Well I think its obvious Nathan has flying power not super strength Yes and this is all connected directly to the point I keep trying to drive home to you guys, lol. Nathan's power is flying and there are rules and limitations surrounding that, which follow a logic or try to make sense once one accepts flying as possible. Similar to how Nathan's flying ability doesn't allow him to do anything he wants, regenerative blood has its own set of rules and limitations. One logically being that it is in no way a substitute for food, air or water. Adam can't possibly live on consciously eternally with just his regen blood, as that's not how regeneration/healing works, just as how Nathan can't catch the moon if it suddenly fell out of the sky and then fly it back to where it was. Lol because it simply doesn't make sense or fit in with the limits of the ability or what the ability means.

[Socrate]

Yeah but what I ment is that these are different things, debating on Nathans powers we would probably talk about his speed, airodynamics, temperature during flight etc. not if he can catch moon ;D . Its like considering if Adam can make his blood change into Slushu :P


ps: Think our discussion will end sooner or later cause Adam is comming back vol 3. according to graphic novel and he for sure used all oxygen in coffin by now. Shame writers just popup with solutions without bothering to explain how things work :/
eh well then we wouldnt have anything to discuss :D

[The Ninth Doctor]

Originally posted by Xanderman

If Adam transformed into a magical dragon all of the sudden

Actually, that would be kinda cool.





I kid, I kid. Anyway, since people seem to have problems with the moon anology, I'll through in something that we know can't happen with Nathan due to the laws of physics, just like Adam can't sustain himself on himself eternally due to the laws of physics.

Nathan cannot reach the speed of light in flight. That's special relativity.


So, if we saw Nathan take off for Cork at the end of an episode (which we did), then we tried to determine if he could reach it before peter left, we could logically determine that it would take at least more than a certain amount of time to get there using logic and physics. Likewise we can determine, using the laws already established by the show and demonstrated by Pete and Claire, and the Law of entropy to determine that Adam cannot perpetually survive without air, food, and water, and must at the very least enter a deathlike state eventually.

QED

[Xanderman]

John, as TND said, I don't think you quite got the purpose of my analogy. No worries though.



Originally posted by The Ninth Doctor
Adam can't sustain himself on himself Lol, cool wording. It really is as simple as this, and yet I've been trying to explain this in various ways for pages and pages with only limited success. lol

the Law of entropy to determine that Adam cannot perpetually survive without air, food, and water, and must at the very least enter a deathlike state eventually.
Exactly, a deathlike state, one in which he isn't expending energy, which is what being conscious would do. There is no energy source for Adam to do that, regen blood can only do so much.

[Socrate]

Xanderman as I said (but You tuned for smashing me in face sounds only :P) my point wasnt if moon was analogy or not gosh ,no big difference if its moon or its f.e pickup truck,still obvious flying doesnt go with +5bonus powers pack like strength etc. and still I insist it wasnt related at all to discussion :) .


Nathan cannot reach the speed of light in flight. That's special relativity. ....

QED [/B] this was :)

ps: Adam probably can survive without food,drink,air since he might be in the coffin for good few weeks in time of Novel action, and even if not coffin probably would provide air for couple of hours only. Besides starving him to death would be then one of easier ways for company to kill him.
(my personal theory about Adam is that he can take almost everything by now including headshoots etc. but I wont bring this theory ,well not in this topic at least :D )

Good day all

[Yoshua]

new comic. adam is still awake and thinking and alive.

[The Ninth Doctor]

Hmmm... after reading the comic, it looks like the writers are intentionally avoiding this issue. When Adam thinks how long he's been conscious, he states that it could be hours, or days, or weeks. And then at the end reveals that he'll be out of there soon enough.

Wow, I can't believe they're not going to take a stand on this one. I guess I can see why- logically, he has to enter the deathlike state. But that is no way near as cool a fate as being trapped conscious in the coffin eternally. So they're just going to avoid the issue altogether. Oh well.

[Yoshua]

he also states 'died more times than i can count already in this coffin'


He will perpetually die and wake up until it is opened. I was right from the get go.

Thanks for coming.

[The Ninth Doctor]

Ok, so he could be referring to emotional rather than physical death, but I doubt it.

Let's try and make this work somehow with our dear basic laws of the universe. (Now I feel like those Star Wars geeks who figure out why everything there can seemingly break the laws of physics)




He could still eventually permanently die.... it's just until he does, he goes through the die/awaken cycle....

Now, let's assume for the moment, that the healing factor creates safegaurds against more than getting limbs hacked off. If we say that it stores energy much more efficiently than an average human, and given that it does things like has a higher pain tolerance than the average human, I think this isn't such a huge leap, and then go on to say that Adam has been storing energy like this for the past 400 years, then it might be safe to say that this awaken/die cycle could last for a very long time before he permanently dies, though the most basic law of the universe, the one that actually causes us to view time moving forward, says he does indeed eventually have to die, though this might take some time.

[Yoshua]

Originally posted by The Ninth Doctor
Ok, so he could be referring to emotional rather than physical death, but I doubt it.

Let's try and make this work somehow with our dear basic laws of the universe. (Now I feel like those Star Wars geeks who figure out why everything there can seemingly break the laws of physics)




He could still eventually permanently die.... it's just until he does, he goes through the die/awaken cycle....

Now, let's assume for the moment, that the healing factor creates safegaurds against more than getting limbs hacked off. If we say that it stores energy much more efficiently than an average human, and given that it does things like has a higher pain tolerance than the average human, I think this isn't such a huge leap, and then go on to say that Adam has been storing energy like this for the past 400 years, then it might be safe to say that this awaken/die cycle could last for a very long time before he permanently dies, though the most basic law of the universe, the one that actually causes us to view time moving forward, says he does indeed eventually have to die, though this might take some time.


The problem here isnt belief or disbelief or basic laws. IT is that people keep trying to rationalize a genetic evolution. There is nothing in real world physics that can dictate how a science fiction genetic JUMP is going to work. Nor can you use 'wolverine' as a basis of logic as Wolverine DOES age, just very slowly. There is NO indication that Adam Monroe/Takezo Kensei has aged a day in 400 years.


The power that he and Claire have may just keep them alive indefinately, that could be their genetic evolution. Short of destroying the brain, or at least the part of the brain that controls their ability, I believe that their ability will keep them alive indefinately.

[The Ninth Doctor]

In every single reaction, even in equilibrious, self-sustaining reactions, there is a net increase in disorder. If Adam was somehow an exception to this, then he would not perceive the flow of time, would not perceive movement towards the future and away from the past. This does not occur, so the law of entropy must still apply to him.


For all these guys we have to make nonscientific/pseudoscientific assumptions. But we should try and make these assumptions as minor as possible, and break as few basic laws as we can along the way.

[Yoshua]

Originally posted by The Ninth Doctor
In every single reaction, even in equilibrious, self-sustaining reactions, there is a net increase in disorder. If Adam was somehow an exception to this, then he would not perceive the flow of time, would not perceive movement towards the future and away from the past. This does not occur, so the law of entropy must still apply to him.


For all these guys we have to make nonscientific/pseudoscientific assumptions. But we should try and make these assumptions as minor as possible, and break as few basic laws as we can along the way.



The world was once flat and square, america was once india and walking on the moon was something of dreams.


Laws today are not laws tomorrow and that is what science fiction is about. 100 years ago had you told someone you would be able to talk to someone on the other side of the world with the touch of a piece of plastic and metal they would tell you that goes against all common sense and call you insane.


Heck, even when the original star trek came out it was nothing but science fiction. Today it is a reality.



Trying to explain new discoveries with old laws is often a flawed process and hinders growth. This is about a sci-fi show, granted, but the same theory holds here. To assume what 'works' in a science fiction show MUST fall under what we 'think' we know today is missing the point in my opinion.



Science Fiction is about possibilities, like the 'communicator' that we now call a 'cell phone'.

[Matro]

Well, scientific laws have been proven time and time again and are always laws.

[Yoshua]

The 'fact' that the earth is flat... or was... or believed it was.... was a scientific FACT proven by the scientists of their time.

Newtonian Mechanics have since been disproven but are still used as good 'approximations'. Disproved by the new fangled law of 'relativity' and all....

What was once a law can be disproven if new evidence comes to light that shows that it is wrong. Just because you believe something is the truth does not make it so.


Keplars 4th law was abandoned.

Scientific "laws" and "theories" are less often proved wrong by a scientific "revolution" than revised as part of a work "in progress." For example, the periodic table and the theory behind it were not shown to be "wrong" with the discovery of six new elements since 1994.

oh, and the earth is definately not the center of the universe. That 'fact' was disproven long ago.

[Xanderman]

Originally posted by Yoshua
he also states 'died more times than i can count already in this coffin'

He will perpetually die and wake up until it is opened. I was right from the get go.

Thanks for coming. This doesn't necessarily mean you were right at all, there's no evidence that a ton of time had passed. I conceded that he would survive longer thanks to his ability, but eventually he should be brain dead due to having no energy, and likely enter a deathlike state to possibly be revived at a later time, when he was out of the coffin.

And you say you believe their ability will keep them alive indefinitely/forever, even in conditions of no air/food/water? I assume you mean consciously? Such a thing defies all explanation and reason. Why would the writers/creators go this nonsensical route when the much more reasonable "grey eyed" death/dormancy state is staring them right in the face? Again, I don't think a lot of time had passed, especially after reading the quote TND provided.



Originally posted by Socrate
Xanderman as I said (but You tuned for smashing me in face sounds only :P) my point wasnt if moon was analogy or not gosh ,no big difference if its moon or its f.e pickup truck,still obvious flying doesnt go with +5bonus powers pack like strength etc. and still I insist it wasnt related at all to discussion Nah you just completely missed the point of the analogy. You seem to have a little trouble with english so I can understand why, so no biggie. I'm not sure what you're talking about half the time by the way, "+5 bonus powers pack"? What the heck? It was of course related to the discussion, that being that powers work in certain ways and have their limitations. Some had argued on this forum before that weight should be a non-issue for someone like Nathan with the physics-defying ability of flight, positing that Nathan should be able to fly anything around with him, regardless of size. However, he had trouble carrying fat Matt around, thus ruling out that possibility. This means there are rules and limitations to powers, once we accept the powers as possible. This connects back to the regen blood discussion in ways I thought I had made perfectly clear.

[The Ninth Doctor]

Actually, just to nitpick, the earth is the center of the universe. Along with every other point in the universe.


I know that with science fiction we need to add/subtract laws to get stuff to work. For Star Trek you need exotic matter that arps space. For Heroes you need a telepathic force.


The problem is, Entropy is necessary for us to even perceive time. I don't think disregarding such a law should be taken lightly. Because, not only is it an observed, defined, law of physics, but it makes rational sense. Something, anything, be it a chemical system, a solar system, the universe or some guy in a tomb sustaining himself on himself perpetually does not make any sense.

But we're at the point now where I am arguing that in a few weeks/months/years/whatever he has to die, your arguing that my proof for that doesn't apply, I argue yes it does, you no it doesn't, and we will just go back and forth on an issue that will probably never be proven one way or the other on screen. (or on panel, considering the webcomic)

So, I propose that we end this debate while we're all still civil and tempers have not yet begun to flair. Both arguments have merit, otherwise we wouldn't be arguing them, and it is impossible to prove either, so I think it'd be in everyone's interest if we all moved on to another topic.

[Socrate]

So, I propose that we end this debate while we're all still civil and tempers have not yet begun to flair.

So do I cause :


You seem to have a little trouble with english so I can understand why, so no biggie. I'm not sure what you're talking about half the time by the way

some ppl are "masters" of riposte and instead of accepting some critic of their theories prefere to insult others, well I understand it don't worry m8 , some ppl just are not grown up.. . If You don't want anyone to criticise Your theories go post them on a blog and remove "comment" button, that will help for sure.

ps: Are You english native speaker? I am not and to make it worse I got dislexia, but I am 2nd year undergraduate in London m8 and never heard tutors or lecturers complain a lot about my writing. So I will shyly dare to say that maybe I am not the one who should practice my writing but Your the one to practice reading with understanding and hm manners.

Cheers

[Yoshua]

Originally posted by Xanderman
This doesn't necessarily mean you were right at all, there's no evidence that a ton of time had passed. I conceded that he would survive longer thanks to his ability, but eventually he should be brain dead due to having no energy, and likely enter a deathlike state to possibly be revived at a later time, when he was out of the coffin.

And you say you believe their ability will keep them alive indefinitely/forever, even in conditions of no air/food/water? I assume you mean consciously? Such a thing defies all explanation and reason. Why would the writers/creators go this nonsensical route when the much more reasonable "grey eyed" death/dormancy state is staring them right in the face? Again, I don't think a lot of time had passed, especially after reading the quote TND provided.



I have no idea why you would assume that when I have stated repeatedly that they will continually die and wake up.

As for 'non sensicle' Makes perfect sense to those who think outside the box. Just because it doesnt fit what you think it should doesnt mean it doesn't fit at all.

Go read the comic, then come back with what you think about it instead of going off of what we are talking about it here.


There is no dormancy, the writers have NEVER said there is a dormancy. There is death, and the inability for their ability to function. If the brain is cut off from the rest of the body then their ability ceases to function. IE: Dead. When their brain, more importantly the part that contains their ability, is allowed to reconnect to the rest of the body it does its job.




Other than in this thread, and in the fans minds there has been no cannon stated that their ability will ever stop unless their brains are blown apart. Can you please find something on screen or in the comics to back up your theory? Because I have a comic, that states plainly, that Adam has died MORE TIMES THAN HE CAN COUNT in that coffin. And trust me when I say that when he IS dug up and brought out of that coffin? They will say just how much time has passed.


Originally posted by The Ninth Doctor
Actually, just to nitpick, the earth is the center of the universe. Along with every other point in the universe.


I know that with science fiction we need to add/subtract laws to get stuff to work. For Star Trek you need exotic matter that arps space. For Heroes you need a telepathic force.


The problem is, Entropy is necessary for us to even perceive time. I don't think disregarding such a law should be taken lightly. Because, not only is it an observed, defined, law of physics, but it makes rational sense. Something, anything, be it a chemical system, a solar system, the universe or some guy in a tomb sustaining himself on himself perpetually does not make any sense.

But we're at the point now where I am arguing that in a few weeks/months/years/whatever he has to die, your arguing that my proof for that doesn't apply, I argue yes it does, you no it doesn't, and we will just go back and forth on an issue that will probably never be proven one way or the other on screen. (or on panel, considering the webcomic)

So, I propose that we end this debate while we're all still civil and tempers have not yet begun to flair. Both arguments have merit, otherwise we wouldn't be arguing them, and it is impossible to prove either, so I think it'd be in everyone's interest if we all moved on to another topic.





You provide no evidence either in comic or on screen that he will die from lack of nutritien or air. I provide proof in comic that he will continually live and die and live and die repeatedly until he has a new air source.


Your logic is fantastic in our realm of physics and science. But Heroes is about science FICTION. You can try to apply it, but the writers obviously have stated their stance that Adam can live in that tomb until he is dug up. His character will not die from lack of air or food.


Unless you can provide proof in canon, I stand by what they show on screen, or in the comic.

[Yoshua]

Originally posted by The Ninth Doctor
Actually, just to nitpick, the earth is the center of the universe. Along with every other point in the universe.





And sorry to disagree again, but to define any point in the universe as a center is to claim the universe has boundaries.

[The Ninth Doctor]

Hey Socrate, don't worry, I don't mind any insults thrown my way. Most of them are usually quite true. But I come to this forum to have some fun, lighthearted discussion on my favorite tv show, and I'm sure that most others come for the same reason- I just don't want people to start getting angry and so forth with this simple topic, when we should be enjoying our visits to ksite. But only the first comment was from me. Anyway as to Xanderman's, all of us when we talk online tend to write in a more stream of consciousness kind of thing compared to how we normally write. I try not to take it as an insult when people say that I'm not very understandable in my writing, because, like I said before, its often true. I don't want to put words in his mouth, but I don't think he was trying to be rude.


Yoshua, read the comic. I know that he's been dying and waking up, in fact I incorporated that into my theory. They don't say anywhere that its indefinate. But they neither say anywhere that its definate. I think after a few million years he'll be dead. You think he'll survive. I think we're at a stalemate. I think that at this point your theory is as valid as mine. So instead of me potentially offending someone in this debate, as is likely to eventually happen, I'm going to respectfully take my leave of any further discussion of this topic.



But that last post- I can't stop myself from responding to. I'm kind of a theoretical physics geek. Anyway, if space is curved, then it's like saying what is the center on the surface of a globe- Every point is equally valid, because you can divide it up any way. But the real center lies in the higher dimmension.


EDIT: That was supposed to be " Yoshua, I read the comic." not "Yoshua, read the comic." Sorry.

[Yoshua]

Yoshua, read the comic. I know that he's been dying and waking up, in fact I incorporated that into my theory. They don't say anywhere that its indefinate. But they neither say anywhere that its definate. I think after a few million years he'll be dead. You think he'll survive. I think we're at a stalemate. I think that at this point your theory is as valid as mine. So instead of me potentially offending someone in this debate, as is likely to eventually happen, I'm going to respectfully take my leave of any further discussion of this topic. [/B]

One of the things I said was we will know exactly how long he has been in there once he is released. The comic definately points to that direction. You can take your leave but one of the major points of this argument/debate was that he would be in a hibernation state until he is released. That was definitavely proven to be not true in this comic. He will keep waking up and dieing.




But that last post- I can't stop myself from responding to. I'm kind of a theoretical physics geek. Anyway, if space is curved, then it's like saying what is the center on the surface of a globe- Every point is equally valid, because you can divide it up any way. But the real center lies in the higher dimmension.


Even if space is curved there is no beginning nor end that has ever been found, nor any reason to assume there IS an end from what we have found. The only reason to think there is an end or an edge would be because in our limited understanding we can't perceive something that goes on indefinately. It is in our nature to always find an end.

There MAY be an end to the universe, but it hasnt been found, and since it hasnt been found to our knowledge it is just as likely there is no middle, as there is.

[Socrate]

Originally posted by The Ninth Doctor
Hey Socrate, don't worry, I don't mind any insults thrown my way. Most of them are usually quite true. But I come to this forum to have some fun, lighthearted discussion on my favorite tv show, and I'm sure that most others come for the same reason- I just don't want people to start getting angry and so forth with this simple topic, when we should be enjoying our visits to ksite.
9th m8 nothing in my post was about the one You posted above ;D I was just off-topicing to Xander so sorry if You taught I was saying anything about You. I agree in 100% with what You say about lighthearthed discussion and actualy I had 2-3 taughts in last 24h to log and delete/edit my last post :P I feel always bad after "pointing finger at someone" and I have nothing against You Xanderman but I rly felt threated kinda badly ;P I was trying to make the discussion lighter already few posts before and ended being called a guy who doesn't get what he reads in english and then posts random stuff :P . Anyway I admit that maybe I went 2 easly into angry-mode.

[The Ninth Doctor]

Ahh, thanks socrate. Sorry about the confusion.

Yoshua, I incorporated the waking up/ dying in my own personal theory a few posts back. I'm not going to argue any more points, just letting you know that you and the comic did indeed convince me of that much.

Yeah, you're right about never finding the boundary, since we live in the curved space. Just like if we were 1 dimmensional beings living on a circle, we'd never find the boundary of that. We'd just keep going, and going, and going.

[Xanderman]

Originally posted by Yoshua
I have no idea why you would assume that when I have stated repeatedly that they will continually die and wake up.

Go read the comic, then come back with what you think about it instead of going off of what we are talking about it here.I just saw the comic, and it provided no important info further to what Ninth already said. And yes you said he would continually die and wake up, but during the course of our discussions you also went on to say you thought Adam could remain conscious/live on forever or that this life/death cycle could continue forever. One of my points was such a thing would be impossible without air/food/energy etc (taking in life sustaining materials from outside himself). The comic implied a relatively small amount of time had passed. He keeps dying and coming back because he still has energy to use. Every conscious thought he has while he's alive (no matter how short a time he's alive before dying again) uses up energy. His brain cells die or shut down because of no air, but his regen blood heals/repairs the cells, and then they can function again for a short time, once again using up more energy. Logically, this life/death cycle can only persist for so long. Since Adam will probably be rescued before the point his energy reserves are depleted, we probably won't see onscreen evidence to support the very probable and sensible notion that he will eventually be "brain dead" for good, or at least until he's returned once again into a life supporting environment.

As for 'non sensicle' Makes perfect sense to those who think outside the box. Just because it doesnt fit what you think it should doesnt mean it doesn't fit at all.
Ah come on this isn't an outside the box thinking issue at all, I almost always think otb. The fact of the matter is that nonsense is nonsense, how ever "outside the box" it may be. He can't possibly continue on in this cycle forever, and I have yet to hear an "outside the box" explanation from you to account for such a thing, outside of your repeatedly saying that "this is science FICTION". Even fiction tries to make things make as much sense as possible when it can. I don't see any evidence that Heroes is any different.

There is no dormancy, the writers have NEVER said there is a dormancy. There is death, and the inability for their ability to function. If the brain is cut off from the rest of the body then their ability ceases to function. IE: Dead. When their brain, more importantly the part that contains their ability, is allowed to reconnect to the rest of the body it does its job.
Re: the "dormancy" thing/wording, it's probably not the best description but clearly I'm just talking about the grey-eyed death-like state we've seen in Peter and Claire before. It's not true death as the persons in question are capable of reviving once whatever is killing them or preventing revival is removed from the equation. As for the regen ability, as I've said the power is the ability to produce regen blood. Even if the brain is removed or destroyed, existing regen blood should still operate for however long a time. Regen blood works just fine outside of the person (and away from the brain/body) that created it, as evidenced by the healing of people like HRG.

Other than in this thread, and in the fans minds there has been no cannon stated that their ability will ever stop unless their brains are blown apart. Can you please find something on screen or in the comics to back up your theory? Because I have a comic, that states plainly, that Adam has died MORE TIMES THAN HE CAN COUNT in that coffin. And trust me when I say that when he IS dug up and brought out of that coffin? They will say just how much time has passed.
I'm not denying that the ability continues to function while the brain is intact, but that ability is NOT the ability to heal/regenerate -- it expresses itself as that only indirectly. The direct ability is the power to produce special blood. Proven by it doing the same magic in other people.

Back to the comic, Adam said more times than he can count yes, but also that he wasn't sure if only hours had passed. As I said, dying/reviving over and over again is fine, I have no issues with that. I do have issue with the idea that this cycle can last forever, or even close. Eventually he will stay dead because he's energyless, his eyes would probably grey over at that time, and he'd be death-like until someone rescues him -- and there would be a limited time window of opportunity for this as well. And again because he's probably going to be rescued after only a relatively short period of time, we won't see onscreen evidence to support this. But at the same time that also means we won't see any evidence he could remain this way (living/dying) forever, either. And choosing of the two possibilities for the long term outlook, I think I'll choose the one that makes way more sense.

[Yoshua]

You listed no cannon evidence other than your own personal issues.


It is 'non sensicle' to think anyone could have this ability from the get go. To dictate how a writer should write is non sensicle to me. Obviously the writers are leaving it open ended for a reason but they have NEVER stated anywhere that their abilities would stop short of their brain being blown apart or removed.


Please, other than restating your opinions can you provide canon that says that their ability will end without sufficient nutrients?


Yes their body requires nutrients, but they have never said their ability does, and that being said, if their ability does not require nutrients then regardless of whether or not their body does? Their ability will continually repair the damage.

[Xanderman]

Their ability will continually repair damage, but "life" itself does not function, even with a perfectly working body and brain, without a consumption of energy. Returning to my car example from before, a car isn't going anywhere without gas, no matter how perfect a shape or condition it is kept in. Same thing with life, without energy, the brain isn't going to do anything. No energy = no conscious thought. Eventually all energy will be depleted in Adam's current state, which means eventually he will be incapable of generating thought or maintaining any sort of consciousness. I'm just using common sense here.

That comic just showed us what's happening to Adam in the here and now, the short term. Long term is all speculation. And the most reasonable speculation is the kind that that can be best explained or make the most sense or remain most consistent with what we've already seen before or know about the ability thus so far -- the kind of stuff I and a few others on this thread have been saying.

Once again, regeneration could continue on, but without energy, a body/brain in perfect working order isn't going to do anything. And without a working body, regen blood will eventually stop being produced. (A body that "works" is one that is using energy -- but there is no energy in Adam's current conditions.) So eventually regeneration will stop as well (once the body is officially "energy dead"). Remaining regen blood in the system can at best then keep Adam's body in a death-like state, preserved and ready to reactivate, once back in life-promoting conditions -- likely in a similar state we've seen before in Peter and Claire.

And as I also discussed above, whether or not the "regenerative blood producing" ability can be explained scientifically or not is not the point, it is that once one accepts the ability as true, and it is shown to work in certain ways, we can follow a "cause and effect" relationship and logic from that point on, once we have a certain basis to work from. The ability to regenerate/heal is not a substitute for energy in any shape or form, it just allows a damaged/killed body to restore itself and operate as it usually does -- and bodies/brains tend to operate with ENERGY.

Can you provide evidence (from the show/comic -- especially show) that shows Adam can remain in a consciously living/dying cycle forever without anything but his own body, ability and blood to live off? Can you even reason it out in the slightest? I haven't seen you try. If you have, it certainly hasn't stuck. So please refresh me.

[Yoshua]

In the show Adam said 'if they could kill me, they would have'


Aside from putting a bullet in his head this implies that they have tested his abilities to a great extent, just as they have everyone else they tested on.



In the show they said the ONLY way to kill him is to blow away his brain. They did not say 'or starve him for 100 years and see what happens'.



The show has said repeatidly the only way to kill adam is to blow away his brain. Period. That is cannon.


As for this whole 'body starves mind stops working' thought process. Lets say you are right, that the body does need food to survive on. Not that I think it does. Technically all he needs to do is bite a large chunk out of his arm and eat it. There is a food source.


Obviously oxygen isnt an issue, he keeps waking up with zero oxygen. That alone should prove that he doesnt need an energy source because technically oxygen is part of the energy required and obviously it isnt required for his healing ability to heal him and wake him up or it would have stopped shortly after there was no supply of it. That alone SHOULD be enough to show that outside sources of energy are not required, but I don't see you as someone who see's that point. No matter how many times it is stated.


Originally you said food, water and oxygen are REQUIRED if I remember right. Well obviously oxygen isn't.

[Matro]

A funny thought just came to me. Why do we just accept that someone can fly, shoot lightning, have telekinesis, walk through walls, or turn invisible, but have this long of an argument about this? I've heard someone say that the writers could probably make some believable explanation for those powers, why can't we assume that for this also?

[SV'S_immortal_hero]

Originally posted by Xanderman
Their ability will continually repair damage, but "life" itself does not function, even with a perfectly working body and brain, without a consumption of energy. Returning to my car example from before, a car isn't going anywhere without gas, no matter how perfect a shape or condition it is kept in.

depends on the car your driving haha if its electric then no worries :lol:


Originally posted by Xanderman
Same thing with life, without energy, the brain isn't going to do anything. No energy = no conscious thought. Eventually all energy will be depleted in Adam's current state, which means eventually he will be incapable of generating thought or maintaining any sort of consciousness. I'm just using common sense here.

That comic just showed us what's happening to Adam in the here and now, the short term. Long term is all speculation. And the most reasonable speculation is the kind that that can be best explained or make the most sense or remain most consistent with what we've already seen before or know about the ability thus so far -- the kind of stuff I and a few others on this thread have been saying.

Once again, regeneration could continue on, but without energy, a body/brain in perfect working order isn't going to do anything. And without a working body, regen blood will eventually stop being produced. (A body that "works" is one that is using energy -- but there is no energy in Adam's current conditions.) So eventually regeneration will stop as well (once the body is officially "energy dead"). Remaining regen blood in the system can at best then keep Adam's body in a death-like state, preserved and ready to reactivate, once back in life-promoting conditions -- likely in a similar state we've seen before in Peter and Claire.

And as I also discussed above, whether or not the "regenerative blood producing" ability can be explained scientifically or not is not the point, it is that once one accepts the ability as true, and it is shown to work in certain ways, we can follow a "cause and effect" relationship and logic from that point on, once we have a certain basis to work from. The ability to regenerate/heal is not a substitute for energy in any shape or form, it just allows a damaged/killed body to restore itself and operate as it usually does -- and bodies/brains tend to operate with ENERGY.

Can you provide evidence (from the show/comic -- especially show) that shows Adam can remain in a consciously living/dying cycle forever without anything but his own body, ability and blood to live off? Can you even reason it out in the slightest? I haven't seen you try. If you have, it certainly hasn't stuck. So please refresh me.

well by what your argument says that normal people require energy to live, are the majority of people on the show heroes normal? no they aint, we have 2 guys and a girl that can heal rapidly so whos to say they need energy alone and not there abilities as you put it to live forever

[Yoshua]

going off of the electric car statement. My view is that their ability IS an energy source of sorts. Just not your typical food and water source.

[SV'S_immortal_hero]

Originally posted by Yoshua
going off of the electric car statement. My view is that their ability IS an energy source of sorts. Just not your typical food and water source.

i wasnt backing Xanderman with the car comment infact my electric car statement was simply an example of how things can evolve just as the people on heroes evolved from normal people to superpowered 1's

as we still havent yet explored the limitations of the regens on the show its highly probable that there abilities alone can help them live outside the requirements of normal people

[Yoshua]

I got that, and appreciated the car view. Just wanted to elaborate on it a bit. Thanks.

[SV'S_immortal_hero]

Originally posted by Yoshua
I got that, and appreciated the car view. Just wanted to elaborate on it a bit. Thanks.

no problem, as i have dyslexia it can be hard at times for me to understand the meaning behind what people say at times

[Xanderman]

In the show Adam said 'if they could kill me, they would have'

Aside from putting a bullet in his head this implies that they have tested his abilities to a great extent, just as they have everyone else they tested on.

In the show they said the ONLY way to kill him is to blow away his brain. They did not say 'or starve him for 100 years and see what happens'.

The show has said repeatidly the only way to kill adam is to blow away his brain. Period. That is cannon.It's canon that Adam can definitely be killed by destroying/removing the brain (and possibly head), but I totally disagree about it being canon that this is the ONLY way. It is an immediate, definite kill method. That doesn't mean there aren't other ways that take a lot longer, and that he has a chance of coming back from eventually (unlike the brain loss). I'm just saying that logically speaking, he should eventually be dead for good any way you can possibly look it, in the situation he is currently in, and I doubt there's any canon that disputes this -- and since it makes far more sense than your alternative, it then becomes a likelihood, or the greater likelihood between the two possibilities. And much of what Adam told Peter could have been a lie. If I remember right, it was Adam who told Peter that the Company had done such tests on him and kept him prisoner. It's not canon based on assertions from characters who aren't necessarily telling the truth. And I doubt the Company performed a test where he would be trapped in a confined space without food, water and air long enough for him to be "dead for good". And if they did perform such tests, that doesn't mean he was conscious the whole time - he might have eventually went grey-eyed, then revived upon being freed by his captors.


going off of the electric car statement. My view is that their ability IS an energy source of sorts. Just not your typical food and water source.I don't see how it can be an "endless" energy source unto itself, that doesn't make any sense whatsoever, no matter how wishfully "open minded" a person sees themselves to be - it just doesn't fly. And as I explained above, there is no actual or definitive canon to back you up -- something which you have made a requirement of me, you yourself are unable to provide. Funny how that works.


Obviously oxygen isnt an issue, he keeps waking up with zero oxygen. That alone should prove that he doesnt need an energy source because technically oxygen is part of the energy required and obviously it isnt required for his healing ability to heal him and wake him up or it would have stopped shortly after there was no supply of it. That alone SHOULD be enough to show that outside sources of energy are not required, but I don't see you as someone who see's that point. No matter how many times it is stated.

Originally you said food, water and oxygen are REQUIRED if I remember right. Well obviously oxygen isn't..Oxygen is definitely required otherwise he wouldn't keep dying the way he is in the comic. If his blood was all he needed, he wouldn't be dying and coming back, he would just be staying alive/conscious forever. He's dying because brain cells are dying without oxygen. He's coming back because his r-blood is restoring the killed brain cells so that they can function a bit longer using energy still available in his body -- then the lack of oxygen kills them again, and then they're repaired again so that he can produce a few more thoughts, etc, etc. While it's true oxygen is needed for the production or release of new energy (process of cellular respiration), perhaps it's possible Adam is just tapping into energy already produced and stored away -- in whatever form. Meaning eventually he'll reach a point where he won't have the energy to "think" at all, making him effectively brain dead (but not really since his cells would be in perfect shape thanks to his r-blood). Perfectly working/undamaged brain + no energy = no consciousness. A grey-eyed death like state then becomes the better likelihood, at least it does for me.


I've heard someone say that the writers could probably make some believable explanation for those powers, why can't we assume that for this also?Until we get that explanation, there's no reason to assume Adam will in fact live forever (or keep dying and coming back for a few more moments of consciousness) trapped in that coffin. A more reasonable assumption is that he will eventually be dead for good, possibly entering into that grey-eyed death-like state we've seen before, ready to come back to life if and when he is freed from the environment that is killing him. In choosing between possibilities, I'm just choosing the one that makes more sense based on the ability itself and what we've seen before to set some sort of precedence.


depends on the car your driving haha if its electric then no worries :lol:Well if it's electric it still needs electricity, an energy source. (I realize you're just kidding around here by the way.:cool: )


well by what your argument says that normal people require energy to live, are the majority of people on the show heroes normal? no they aint, we have 2 guys and a girl that can heal rapidly so whos to say they need energy alone and not there abilities as you put it to live foreverEnergy is a constant, a requirement for all life, even mutant life, I can't see any way or thinking around that. Like with Nathan for example, he isn't normal, he can fly, however we've seen that he can only fly himself around easily, implying it takes energy/effort from him, and that he can be exhausted. Carrying fat Matt around tired him out, despite his superhuman and far-from-normal ability to defy gravity.

[Yoshua]

mutant life doesn't exist in the manner it does in this television series.



You can not say definitively that Adam needs an energy source.


And as for science fiction with immortals that need no sustenance there was recently a character on smallville portrayed by Dean Caine who was a being that is considered immortal and can not die.


Just because you refuse to acknoweldge a possibility, does not mean the possibility does not exist.(especially in the realm of science fiction) The world must still be flat.



Can you please tell me where in the show or in comic it states that Adam will die if he is not let out of the coffin? Adam is stuck in there, dieing over and over again and even he is not worried about how long it will take for his wife to find him. You would think if this could kill him he would be worried out of his gourd about trying to get out and breaking off his fingers trying to claw his way out. He has no fears because he knows this can not kill him.

[SV'S_immortal_hero]

this is just an endless debate we all have our opinions we aint going to convince others of them when they have there own opinion

[Matro]

Until we get that explanation, there's no reason to assume Adam will in fact live forever (or keep dying and coming back for a few more moments of consciousness) trapped in that coffin. A more reasonable assumption is that he will eventually be dead for good, possibly entering into that grey-eyed death-like state we've seen before, ready to come back to life if and when he is freed from the environment that is killing him. In choosing between possibilities, I'm just choosing the one that makes more sense based on the ability itself and what we've seen before to set some sort of precedence.


Why do you just accept that Hiro's body has the ability to manipulate time, or DL's body can somehow move through other objects, or Elle's body can produce vast amounts of electricity? There hasn't been any explanation of how there bodies provide energy for those abilities either.

[Xanderman]

mutant life doesn't exist in the manner it does in this television series.
You can not say definitively that Adam needs an energy source.

And as for science fiction with immortals that need no sustenance there was recently a character on smallville portrayed by Dean Caine who was a being that is considered immortal and can not die.

Just because you refuse to acknoweldge a possibility, does not mean the possibility does not exist.(especially in the realm of science fiction) The world must still be flat.

Can you please tell me where in the show or in comic it states that Adam will die if he is not let out of the coffin? Adam is stuck in there, dieing over and over again and even he is not worried about how long it will take for his wife to find him. You would think if this could kill him he would be worried out of his gourd about trying to get out and breaking off his fingers trying to claw his way out. He has no fears because he knows this can not kill him.I'm not saying my theory is right or will ever be shown to be, just that it's more reasonable. As you say this show is science fiction, so they can ultimately do anything they want -- but why would they want to do something completely senseless when they don't have to? They have other options available to them, such as what I suggested. The idea that Adam can survive on only himself forever is quite far-fetched, even for this show. And it's not exactly in keeping with what "regeneration" actually entails/means, and what it doesn't.


Why do you just accept that Hiro's body has the ability to manipulate time, or DL's body can somehow move through other objects, or Elle's body can produce vast amounts of electricity? There hasn't been any explanation of how there bodies provide energy for those abilities either.That's different, their powers are what they are, and we have to accept them. What we don't have to accept however is if they all of a sudden do something their power shouldn't allow for -- for example, if DL, whose ability is phasing, suddenly started flying -- that's not in keeping with what he can do, and is not reasonable -- being able to phase doesn't mean a person can defy gravity. Their powers follow rules as well, and have their limitations. My whole argument is that the idea that Adam can live on forever in that coffin is beyond the limitations of what his ability should be able to do, and the possibility is not really supported by his power (doesn't make sense for what "regeneration" means), but not only that, it also strongly goes against scientific reason as well. The debate here is about Adam's brain functioning forever with no apparent energy source -- the fact that he's dying repeatedly shows that his r-blood alone isn't sufficient to sustain him. But as Yoshua says, he also keeps coming back, which is why this debate can't easily be settled, if at all. I just disagree that this cycle can or will continue like this forever, that's all. There's no reason to accept this outcome over a more reasonable one which is readily available.

[SV'S_immortal_hero]

well for hiro's and DL's powers

hiro we dont know if he could teleport into space and he should be scared to use his power since he could end up teleporting into space

and as for DL when he uses his power like peter did to walk through a wall he should fall through the ground not stand on it as the ground is made up of matter just as any obstacle that stands before them but those instances arent questioned

yet adams ability does because it relates to the laws of physics and the fact that real people require food, water and oxygen to survive

[The Ninth Doctor]

well for hiro's and DL's powers

hiro we dont know if he could teleport into space and he should be scared to use his power since he could end up teleporting into space

and as for DL when he uses his power like peter did to walk through a wall he should fall through the ground not stand on it as the ground is made up of matter just as any obstacle that stands before them but those instances arent questioned

yet adams ability does because it relates to the laws of physics and the fact that real people require food, water and oxygen to survive

I'm not going to jump into the main argument in this thread, but I'll offer explanations for the first two here.

Hiro's abililty has some subconscious guiding to it. Thus he doesn't teleport into objects, or into space. Evidence: Like when he saw the poster of new york and then teleported there.

DL: He shouldn't be able to move at all in his shift mode if he sinks through the floor. If however he has a mechanism to propel himself forward, he also could subconsciously use this to keep him above the floor. (This would also solve the problem for the 50 billion other superhero/scifi tales that use shifting.)

[Xanderman]

DL has shown that he is able to specifically phase/unphase parts of his body, it's not necessarily a whole body at once thing. So he can allow his foot to unphase as he steps on to the ground past the wall, even thought the rest of his body is still phased inside the wall. The only problem with this is if DL is moving through a very thick object, in which case he can't do what I'm saying. However, I'm not sure if he's ever moved through something thicker or further than a step or a leap away for him.

This reminds me of the TNG ep where Laforge and another officer were de-phased or whatever, and they walked through walls and stuff -- and yet somehow they conveniently didn't fall through the ship's floors -- I can't remember if they accounted for that goof. Also reminds me of Ghost with Patrick Swayze. Not only do his feet keep him on the floor so he can walk around, but when he falls over he touches the ground with his hands and body when he lands. Of course, this can all be explained for in religious ways.

As for Hiro, his jumps (and especially time jumps) seem to be guided by a higher power/God, much like in Quantum Leap. He also has to travel vast distances through space when he travels through time, the further forward/back he travels, the further these distances. (And now that I'm throwing "God" into the picture, Adam of course can live/die/live on forever without an energy source as Yoshua believes, if God is allowing it to be possible. Using God to account for things is the easiest cheat in the world, isn't it? lol)

[The Ninth Doctor]

This reminds me of the TNG ep where Laforge and another officer were de-phased or whatever, and they walked through walls and stuff -- and yet somehow they conveniently didn't fall through the ship's floors

I was actually thinking of that one specifically, when I was talking about the other scifi shows that make this goof. I think sg-1 had one too.

[timbojill]

Why would you think that?


Oxygen isn't needed for the cells to reproduce with this power at all.

For instance HRG was not BREATHING when his eye and BRAIN were being healed, it healed and THEN he took a breath. Same as all the other times people were considered dead and healed.


If the brain is not physically damaged by an outside object its cells will continue to regenerate indefinately, there would be no damage from lack of oxygen because a lack of oxygen does not physically damage their cells fast enough to do any harm. They just regenerate and replace themselves constantly.




He would not go into a coma state unless an object has impaled his head and has not been removed. He will be awake for a very long time in a grave that is not his.

Actually it makes since that when mohinder injected HRG man with claire's blood that his eye would heal first. The part of the brain that controls breathing is the frontal lob.

[The Ninth Doctor]

Actually it makes since that when mohinder injected HRG man with claire's blood that his eye would heal first. The part of the brain that controls breathing is the frontal lob.

That is so awesome. I don't think the writers intended that (as they seem to lack knowledge of any medical science at all: see Mohinder's comments on only 5% or so of the brain being used by man, and Holywood Evolution [name of trope by tvtropes.org]) but that makes that seen that much more perfect.

[DoomsDay15]

Or maybe you all should quit trying to tie their powers directly to biology, how do yall all know for sure how their powers truely work?? Nathan can fly, but does he need a physical means of flying such as wings?? No he doesn't. He just shoots off into the freakin air by thinking thats what he wants to do.

So Nathan's flying is technically tied into his mind as he has no physical means of projecting himself into the air and carrying himself through it. The only creatures on this earth, past and present that can fly need wings to do it, hence in order for a human to fly that human would need wings as well.

As for Adam, Clair and Peter's all related abilities how do you know their power needs air to get to their brain or blood cells to work?? Absolutely any type of damage physical or mental can be healed by them. The haitian's ability removes memory from you as in it is gone completely. He doesn't just freakin encrypt the memories he doesn't want you to have then click the hide memories button, he takes them out of you completely. How in the hell can they make there brains heal and remember what was completely taken from them that is no longer there? You have long-term and short-term memory. If you lose something from long-term memory, sorry no way for you to ever remember it again.

Their powers are obviously more then just an evolutionary step. Look at Micah's ability to "talk" to machines. There is absolutely no physical or mental possible way for a human being to communicate with a computer unless he now has the ability to encode all of thoughts into binary them magically transfer them through his body out of his hand, into the machine he is touching then send it through the circuitry into the cpu. There is no way in hell a human being can evolve into being able to talk to mahcines as machines are man-made, not god-made.

You people just need to let it go and stop trying to figure out how their powers work, there is more to these powers then just evolution.

[Xanderman]

You people just need to let it go and stop trying to figure out how their powers work, there is more to these powers then just evolution.Uh what are you talking about "let it go", the last real discussion related to the main topic of this thread occurred back in like January.:lol: You're a little behind doomsday dude with this great "revelation" of yours. It has been "let go of" for quite some time now. heh

Your points have already been discussed by the way, so I would suggest since this topic has been dead for quite a while now, you are the one in need of letting it go.:cool:

[Yoshua]

Or maybe you all should quit trying to tie their powers directly to biology, how do yall all know for sure how their powers truely work?? Nathan can fly, but does he need a physical means of flying such as wings?? No he doesn't. He just shoots off into the freakin air by thinking thats what he wants to do.

So Nathan's flying is technically tied into his mind as he has no physical means of projecting himself into the air and carrying himself through it. The only creatures on this earth, past and present that can fly need wings to do it, hence in order for a human to fly that human would need wings as well.

As for Adam, Clair and Peter's all related abilities how do you know their power needs air to get to their brain or blood cells to work?? Absolutely any type of damage physical or mental can be healed by them. The haitian's ability removes memory from you as in it is gone completely. He doesn't just freakin encrypt the memories he doesn't want you to have then click the hide memories button, he takes them out of you completely. How in the hell can they make there brains heal and remember what was completely taken from them that is no longer there? You have long-term and short-term memory. If you lose something from long-term memory, sorry no way for you to ever remember it again.

Their powers are obviously more then just an evolutionary step. Look at Micah's ability to "talk" to machines. There is absolutely no physical or mental possible way for a human being to communicate with a computer unless he now has the ability to encode all of thoughts into binary them magically transfer them through his body out of his hand, into the machine he is touching then send it through the circuitry into the cpu. There is no way in hell a human being can evolve into being able to talk to mahcines as machines are man-made, not god-made.

You people just need to let it go and stop trying to figure out how their powers work, there is more to these powers then just evolution.



1-Mind is biological
2-Haitian does encrypt them. Peter's healing ability returned his lost memories. They are still there, you just dont have access to them.
3-The show bases their entire premise off of evolution.... I think you missed that part.

----- Added 47 Seconds later -----


Uh what are you talking about "let it go", the last real discussion related to the main topic of this thread occurred back in like January.:lol: You're a little behind doomsday dude with this great "revelation" of yours. It has been "let go of" for quite some time now. heh

Your points have already been discussed by the way, so I would suggest since this topic has been dead for quite a while now, you are the one in need of letting it go.:cool:

4- I let nothing go. Just waiting until Adam is released :D

[Xanderman]

Well unless Adam is released after a long time, we can't really say for sure whether your idea that his power defies a need for energy/nourishment forever is true or not. We both agree that his power will allow him to die/come back repeatedly for the short term. It's the long term we need an on-screen demonstration of, otherwise I will continue to assume he can't continue on in that cycle forever (the more logical/sensible of the two alternatives). Again, if his power was truly all he needed, he wouldn't keep dying from lack of oxygen. He'd be constantly awake and aware, constantly alive, in a true state of eternal torment for a truly eternal/immortal being -- which Adam is clearly not. Adam's power is regeneration, and that means and entails certain things, and at the same time not others.

[Yoshua]

Well unless Adam is released after a long time, we can't really say for sure whether your idea that his power defies a need for energy/nourishment forever is true or not. We both agree that his power will allow him to die/come back repeatedly for the short term. It's the long term we need an on-screen demonstration of, otherwise I will continue to assume he can't continue on in that cycle forever (the more logical/sensible of the two alternatives). Again, if his power was truly all he needed, he wouldn't keep dying from lack of oxygen. He'd be constantly awake and aware, constantly alive, in a true state of eternal torment for a truly eternal/immortal being -- which Adam is clearly not. Adam's power is regeneration, and that means and entails certain things, and at the same time not others.

I agree that his body needs oxygen and nourishment. I don't agree that his power does. I think that when he dies and his power regenerates him he comes back to life.

But now we are just restating what we have already discussed. I do believe that Adam and Claire are immortal in the sense that they will never die a natural death. The only death they will find is in the obliteration of their brains. Adam's brain was cooked in Japan and it regenerated itself.

[bryan_p_mcgowan]

I agree that his body needs oxygen and nourishment. I don't agree that his power does. I think that when he dies and his power regenerates him he comes back to life.

But now we are just restating what we have already discussed. I do believe that Adam and Claire are immortal in the sense that they will never die a natural death. The only death they will find is in the obliteration of their brains. Adam's brain was cooked in Japan and it regenerated itself.
No, I think that healing does require oxygen/food. Since normal peoples healing does need oxygen (to divide cells, and help repair damaged tissue), I think a super person's healing would need not only some energy, but more energy than the average person.

[Yoshua]

No, I think that healing does require oxygen/food. Since normal peoples healing does need oxygen (to divide cells, and help repair damaged tissue), I think a super person's healing would need not only some energy, but more energy than the average person.

Read the entire thread.


If it needed oxygen and food how is Adam staying alive for months in a coffin with no food, air, or water?

[bryan_p_mcgowan]

Who said that he is staying alive for months? The writers just got back to work, they have a plan to get him out of there, but he is not staying down there for a few hundred years. No one knows how long he is going to be down there. Maybe he can last longer than the average person, depending on how they do it, but he cant stay alive forever down there. If your cells have no energy, they die. If his power is healing, that means that his body repairs it self real fast. They cant divide if they have no energy. All his cells would just slowly die off. He cant stay in there for all eternity. Some one has to rescue him. That is unless he digs him self out Kill Bill style (hopefully not, that was dumb)

[Xanderman]

I agree that his body needs oxygen and nourishment. I don't agree that his power does. I think that when he dies and his power regenerates him he comes back to life.

But now we are just restating what we have already discussed. I do believe that Adam and Claire are immortal in the sense that they will never die a natural death. The only death they will find is in the obliteration of their brains. Adam's brain was cooked in Japan and it regenerated itself.You're right, we're going in circles of course. I only chimed in again because of your "I let nothing go" proclamation, lol. But was Adam really cooked in Japan? I don't think so. My theory is that it wasn't really him that Hiro found, it was some other dead dude that Adam just put his armor/clothes on to fool the easily-fooled Hiro. Adam walked out of that fire well before Hiro showed up, if you ask me.


Read the entire thread.

If it needed oxygen and food how is Adam staying alive for months in a coffin with no food, air, or water?Well to be more accurate, he's not staying alive the whole time, he's dying, reviving, dying, reviving, etc over and over again. To me the best explanation for this cycle is the following (sorry I'm repeating things again, can't help myself, probably because you are continuing your arguments as well, heh) -- His body/brain needs oxygen, without it he dies. Existing regen-blood in his system repairs the damaged/dead brain cells so that they are in a temporarily functioning state again, allowing them to use some more stored existing energy for a limited time (so he can "think" a bit more), but then he dies from no oxygen again. Then r-blood does its thing again, and so on and so on. The only issue with this of course is what you brought up, that oxygen is needed to produce or release energy. I'm unsure whether energy can be used from its stores without it....I don't know enough about metabolism. But perhaps there is existing energy in some stored form that can be used without oxygen? Again I'm not sure...


Who said that he is staying alive for months? The writers just got back to work, they have a plan to get him out of there, but he is not staying down there for a few hundred years. No one knows how long he is going to be down there. Maybe he can last longer than the average person, depending on how they do it, but he cant stay alive forever down there. If your cells have no energy, they die. If his power is healing, that means that his body repairs it self real fast. They cant divide if they have no energy. All his cells would just slowly die off. He cant stay in there for all eternity. Some one has to rescue him. That is unless he digs him self out Kill Bill style (hopefully not, that was dumb)Ah good, always nice to see another person who sees things the way I do. heh But anyway I think Yoshua's idea or response to this is that r-blood can somehow act as an energy source itself, that it's part of the "power", similar to how Nathan's power of flight seems impossible or seems to defy the rules of physics and stuff I suppose.


Anyway Yoshua, your idea that his power goes beyond mere regeneration, that his regen-blood sustains itself, and can sustain Adam's life/body functions on its own, would be better demonstrated if Adam didn't keep dying in that coffin -- if he was conscious the whole time, in my opinion. I just don't see how r-blood also powers the brain, not just repairs/regenerates it to working order (and for it to work it needs energy). R-blood being its own energy source is far fetched even for Heroes, where the impossible is possible. lol But if that's what the show is doing, I have to accept it. I just haven't seen anything to definitively support it yet is all. It's been fun debating things with you either way, even if we are going back and forth over the same crap repeatedly. heh:lol:

[Yoshua]

Who said that he is staying alive for months? The writers just got back to work, they have a plan to get him out of there, but he is not staying down there for a few hundred years. No one knows how long he is going to be down there. Maybe he can last longer than the average person, depending on how they do it, but he cant stay alive forever down there. If your cells have no energy, they die. If his power is healing, that means that his body repairs it self real fast. They cant divide if they have no energy. All his cells would just slowly die off. He cant stay in there for all eternity. Some one has to rescue him. That is unless he digs him self out Kill Bill style (hopefully not, that was dumb)

First you say he needs more fuel then the average person, now you say he doesn't need more fuel then the average person.

We will know how long he has been down there when he is released, you say they can't divide if they have no energy and by your original stance you say this burns energy faster then an average person.

He would be dead within a day with no oxygen if his power required energy, and he can stay in there for an eternity if that is in the script.



On a side note, claire was in stasis for a night with no regeneration until the stick was pulled out of her head, when the stick was removed the regeneration occured. With no oxygen, no breathing, no fuel, her power worked with no outside source of energy for an entire night.


Peter travlled across new york in stasis with no fuel source, and HRG made it from California to Texas before claire's blood was pumped into him, and he didnt even HAVE the power. Which means he really died, and really came back to life. No stasis.

----- Added 7 Minutes later -----


You're right, we're going in circles of course. I only chimed in again because of your "I let nothing go" proclamation, lol. But was Adam really cooked in Japan? I don't think so. My theory is that it wasn't really him that Hiro found, it was some other dead dude that Adam just put his armor/clothes on to fool the easily-fooled Hiro. Adam walked out of that fire well before Hiro showed up, if you ask me.



Your 'theory' doesnt even come close to what was portrayed on the screen. Until they say otherwise, that was Takenso and he did heal and revive.



Well to be more accurate, he's not staying alive the whole time, he's dying, reviving, dying, reviving, etc over and over again. To me the best explanation for this cycle is the following (sorry I'm repeating things again, can't help myself, probably because you are continuing your arguments as well, heh) -- His body/brain needs oxygen, without it he dies. Existing regen-blood in his system repairs the damaged/dead brain cells so that they are in a temporarily functioning state again, allowing them to use some more stored existing energy for a limited time (so he can "think" a bit more), but then he dies from no oxygen again. Then r-blood does its thing again, and so on and so on. The only issue with this of course is what you brought up, that oxygen is needed to produce or release energy. I'm unsure whether energy can be used from its stores without it....I don't know enough about metabolism. But perhaps there is existing energy in some stored form that can be used without oxygen? Again I'm not sure...


This is a modified version of what I said originally, take out the 'stored energy' and you have what I have been stating. You changed your stance the day it was revealed in the comics he wakes up and dies repeatedly, only the fans have come up with a 'stasis' state. I have said and continue to say that the stasis isnt real. There is no stasis. There is death, and revival. Their entire body dies and the power brings it back to life until the power is destroyed. I use the word 'stasis' in some of my posts sort of as sarcasm, because HRG does not have a 'stasis' He died, and was brought back to life by the power.


The power is in the brain, not the blood. The blood can cary the power, but if the power wasn't in the brain then these people would not be killed by a shot to the brain, it would repair it.



Ah good, always nice to see another person who sees things the way I do. heh But anyway I think Yoshua's idea or response to this is that r-blood can somehow act as an energy source itself, that it's part of the "power", similar to how Nathan's power of flight seems impossible or seems to defy the rules of physics and stuff I suppose.


Anyway Yoshua, your idea that his power goes beyond mere regeneration, that his regen-blood sustains itself, and can sustain Adam's life/body functions on its own, would be better demonstrated if Adam didn't keep dying in that coffin -- if he was conscious the whole time, in my opinion. I just don't see how r-blood also powers the brain, not just repairs/regenerates it to working order (and for it to work it needs energy). R-blood being its own energy source is far fetched even for Heroes, where the impossible is possible. lol But if that's what the show is doing, I have to accept it. I just haven't seen anything to definitively support it yet is all. It's been fun debating things with you either way, even if we are going back and forth over the same crap repeatedly. heh:lol:


The regen blood does keep repairing damaged cells, but just as in when one of them has their head penetrated by glass or a stick it cant repaire the damage until the object killing it is removed.

The object killing Adam is no oxygen, when he dies the power does its job and repairs all of the damage and then brings him back to life. Where he dies again in 7 minutes because there isnt enough oxygen.
Once he dies, the power then does its job to repair. Repair isnt instantanious otherwise, for instance, when Peter electricuted Adams hand it would have healed instantly. It didn't, you could clearly see the damage for a few seconds before the power kicked in and did its job.

Similarly Claire walking into the nuclear reaction was not 'instantly' healed. She was damaged, it was healing her while she was being damaged but the healing wasnt complete until after she walked out of the house and was away from what was damaging the cells.

[The Ninth Doctor]

Or maybe you all should quit trying to tie their powers directly to biology, how do yall all know for sure how their powers truely work?? Nathan can fly, but does he need a physical means of flying such as wings?? No he doesn't. He just shoots off into the freakin air by thinking thats what he wants to do.

So Nathan's flying is technically tied into his mind as he has no physical means of projecting himself into the air and carrying himself through it. The only creatures on this earth, past and present that can fly need wings to do it, hence in order for a human to fly that human would need wings as well.

As for Adam, Clair and Peter's all related abilities how do you know their power needs air to get to their brain or blood cells to work?? Absolutely any type of damage physical or mental can be healed by them. The haitian's ability removes memory from you as in it is gone completely. He doesn't just freakin encrypt the memories he doesn't want you to have then click the hide memories button, he takes them out of you completely. How in the hell can they make there brains heal and remember what was completely taken from them that is no longer there? You have long-term and short-term memory. If you lose something from long-term memory, sorry no way for you to ever remember it again.

Their powers are obviously more then just an evolutionary step. Look at Micah's ability to "talk" to machines. There is absolutely no physical or mental possible way for a human being to communicate with a computer unless he now has the ability to encode all of thoughts into binary them magically transfer them through his body out of his hand, into the machine he is touching then send it through the circuitry into the cpu. There is no way in hell a human being can evolve into being able to talk to mahcines as machines are man-made, not god-made.

You people just need to let it go and stop trying to figure out how their powers work, there is more to these powers then just evolution.

I realize that there is more than one way to view a show. I respect the ways that others watch television. I understand that some don't care at all about if a plot makes any logical sense, so long as there is plot. That's fine. But some people like plot that has a logic behind it- especially in a show in which is based in science fiction. Please respect the fact that some people like fiction to follow it's own established conceit.

[Yoshua]

The power is definately carried through the blood but is definately not based in the blood and marrow.

I have proof.


Claire on the autopsy table did not repair ANYTHING until the stick was removed from her head. The morgue person was even cutting her open and performing an autopsy where NONE of her cuts were being healed until after the brain had full access to the rest of the body, at which point she was brought back to life and the healing happened. Mind you she was brought back to life BEFORE her chest was closed up and healed.


The power is solely in the brain, there is the on screen proof.

[Xanderman]

Peter travlled across new york in stasis with no fuel source, and HRG made it from California to Texas before claire's blood was pumped into him, and he didnt even HAVE the power. Which means he really died, and really came back to life. No stasis.For the record my idea of 'stasis' as it pertains to a dead Claire/Peter/Adam is simply the preservation of body parts, not an actual state of dormancy/sleep/whatever. I'm sure I mentioned this a few times already. And while HRG wasn't being preserved (he was undoubtedly rotting), that doesn't mean that's what happens for people with r-blood inside of them at the time of death or while they're dead. The greying over of the eyes could be an indicator of this. When r-blood was pumped into the very dead HRG's head/brain, his eyes greyed-over for a moment before he came back to life. This implies that without a doubt the presence of r-blood in the brain of a dead person is linked to the greying over of the eyes, as I've discussed many times before. Whether or not r-blood actually "preserves" body parts is just speculation, I just think it makes sense based on the regenerative nature of the blood, as mere preservation is something much lesser in comparison, and sort of related.


Your 'theory' doesnt even come close to what was portrayed on the screen. Until they say otherwise, that was Takenso and he did heal and revive.So what if it wasn't on screen, that doesn't discount the theory. Hiro and the audience were meant to believe Kensei died there according to this theory, so naturally it wouldn't be portrayed on screen. What real evidence was there that that was actually Kensei's remains? I think the possibility of Kensei pulling a fast one on Hiro is perfectly reasonable, to be revealed later on perhaps. However, if it is never revealed, then yes that was really supposed to be Kensei's corpse. I'm not saying this is for sure what happened, just what COULD have happened, which is what makes it just a theory/speculation.


I have said and continue to say that the stasis isnt real. There is no stasis. There is death, and revival. Their entire body dies and the power brings it back to life until the power is destroyed.I'm not saying no death occurs, I'm just saying it's reasonable to assume that r-blood, being what it is, has properties that would or could preserve body tissues etc in a dead person. If it can regenerate/build body parts, preserving them is no large order. The grey eyes are definitely connected to the presence of r-blood in the brain as I said above, whether or not it's doing anything else in the dead person is just a guess.


The power is in the brain, not the blood. The blood can cary the power, but if the power wasn't in the brain then these people would not be killed by a shot to the brain, it would repair it.The power is in the brain yes, but that power isn't healing, it's the power to produce healing-blood as I've explained many times before. The fact that the blood heals outside of the person who made it is evidence of this. If the "brain-with-the-power" was needed to heal, then other people couldn't be healed by just the blood alone. As for the shot to the brain killing them, that is what some characters have said, but they could have been wrong or lying. As we have seen with HRG, the injection/presence of r-blood pushes a bullet out of the brain/head as it heals. I think however that if the damage by the shot to the brain is too severe, there's no coming back from it, which is what Adam/others might have been referring to, and what Adam is afraid of. As I've discussed at length previously, certain parts of the brain are irreplaceable by mere regeneration (this is what I mean by too severe).


The regen blood does keep repairing damaged cells, but just as in when one of them has their head penetrated by glass or a stick it cant repaire the damage until the object killing it is removed.

The object killing Adam is no oxygen, when he dies the power does its job and repairs all of the damage and then brings him back to life. Where he dies again in 7 minutes because there isnt enough oxygen.
Once he dies, the power then does its job to repair. Repair isnt instantanious otherwise, for instance, when Peter electricuted Adams hand it would have healed instantly. It didn't, you could clearly see the damage for a few seconds before the power kicked in and did its job.

Similarly Claire walking into the nuclear reaction was not 'instantly' healed. She was damaged, it was healing her while she was being damaged but the healing wasnt complete until after she walked out of the house and was away from what was damaging the cells.I'm not sure why you posted this in response to what you quoted from me. What I was talking about there or questioning was your belief that r-blood can act as an energy source in itself, substituting for energy/nutrition etc long enough so that Adam can have a few more thoughts before he dies again (due to no oxygen). According to you this cycle can go on forever, because you believe the power allows for this violation of the laws of physics. And I was saying that it's far-fetched even for Heroes, but conceded that if that's what the show is doing, then so be it, we just haven't really gotten hard evidence for it yet. And possibly never will, if Adam is rescued quickly.


The power is definately carried through the blood but is definately not based in the blood and marrow.

I have proof.

Claire on the autopsy table did not repair ANYTHING until the stick was removed from her head. The morgue person was even cutting her open and performing an autopsy where NONE of her cuts were being healed until after the brain had full access to the rest of the body, at which point she was brought back to life and the healing happened. Mind you she was brought back to life BEFORE her chest was closed up and healed.

The power is solely in the brain, there is the on screen proof.Your on screen proof is a little dated my friend. That was season 1, we've learned more since then. In the beginning it seemed that Claire's power was the direct ability to heal. However S2 showed us that it is their blood that is the key, as healing works outside of the person with the power. Therefore, their power is the ability to produce this special blood, as I said above. (Wow how many times have I said this in this thread? I feel like I'm beating a dead horse.:lol: heh) So as for that S1 situation with Claire, we can conclude that total healing doesn't occur while anything is still blocking "life", as the whole body is dead/unworkable while the brain is dead. So again, the power to heal is most definitely not solely in the brain. It is the power to produce healing blood which lies in the brain. The blood has the power to heal all by itself.


I realize that there is more than one way to view a show. I respect the ways that others watch television. I understand that some don't care at all about if a plot makes any logical sense, so long as there is plot. That's fine. But some people like plot that has a logic behind it- especially in a show in which is based in science fiction. Please respect the fact that some people like fiction to follow it's own established conceit.Well said Ninth. In other words, to each his own.:cool:

[Yoshua]

If the brain is inactive the blood can't be special. Otherwise all peripheral wounds on Claire when she had a stick or Peter when he had a glass shard would have healed except for the wounds in the head.


It isn't outdated, it just doesn't fit your description so you choose to ignore it.


The blood is special when the brain is intact, it can heal when the brain is intact and it can be removed from a living donar with an intact brain to heal others.

Fairly sure if you removed th dead blood from Peter or Claire when they are in what you call 'stasis' it definately wouldn't heal someone else. And on that note since it wouldn't heal someone else it can't possibly be keeping their 'cells' alive.


No contact with the brain, the blood has no power. That is in the show, on the screen and cannon. I notice that when things don't line up with what you want to believe you just wholly discount them....


Editted to Add.
I am amending how I think about the ability. I do not think the blood is what heals the people with this ability. I believe their very cells are told exactly what to do by their power innately. I think that when blood is taken from a living donor then it retains the healing properties.

I don't believe it is the blood itself that heals the people with the ability, it is the brain telling the cells what to do.

[Xanderman]

If the brain is inactive the blood can't be special. Otherwise all peripheral wounds on Claire when she had a stick or Peter when he had a glass shard would have healed except for the wounds in the head.Either the show itself is being inconsistent, or changing things to fit the stories they want to tell (as they seem to often do), or the explanation is something similar to what I said above. That being, r-blood doesn't do anything if the brain is in an unworkable state. Because an unworkable brain means an unworkable body. So with the object stuck in her head, r-blood was blocked from restoring brain activity, and brain dead = entirely dead. If brain activity was required for r-blood to do its thing, or to "direct them" as you said, then HRG shouldn't have been healed. He was brain dead. Injected r-blood began healing the brain starting from zero brain activity. Therefore r-blood can heal without any help from anyone's brain. The blood has the power to heal, but it doesn't work if the brain is in a state that is beyond repair (for whatever reason). With Claire/Peter, large objects were in the way so r-blood couldn't act. But with HRG it was a small bullet, which could be pushed out as r-blood healed.


It isn't outdated, it just doesn't fit your description so you choose to ignore it.I didn't ignore it, read my post again. I came up with an explanation, and I think the truth is somewhere near to it. My point was that much more has happened since then, you used something old and made it sound like end-evidence without connecting it to what we've seen since then, to solidify it as all-around workable. It is you who were ignoring things when you did that. Anyway for Claire, Peter and HRG, healing happened starting from zero brain activity, so their brains couldn't have been "telling the cells what to do".

[Yoshua]

Either the show itself is being inconsistent, or changing things to fit the stories they want to tell (as they seem to often do), or the explanation is something similar to what I said above. That being, r-blood doesn't do anything if the brain is in an unworkable state. Because an unworkable brain means an unworkable body. So with the object stuck in her head, r-blood was blocked from restoring brain activity, and brain dead = entirely dead. If brain activity was required for r-blood to do its thing, or to "direct them" as you said, then HRG shouldn't have been healed. He was brain dead. Injected r-blood began healing the brain starting from zero brain activity. Therefore r-blood can heal without any help from anyone's brain. The blood has the power to heal, but it doesn't work if the brain is in a state that is beyond repair (for whatever reason). With Claire/Peter, large objects were in the way so r-blood couldn't act. But with HRG it was a small bullet, which could be pushed out as r-blood healed.

I didn't ignore it, read my post again. I came up with an explanation, and I think the truth is somewhere near to it. My point was that much more has happened since then, you used something old and made it sound like end-evidence without connecting it to what we've seen since then, to solidify it as all-around workable. It is you who were ignoring things when you did that. Anyway for Claire, Peter and HRG, healing happened starting from zero brain activity, so their brains couldn't have been "telling the cells what to do".



Other than HRG you don't know for a fact that Claire and Peter had 'zero' brain activity. The portion of the brain t hat held the power may in fact have been active the entire time but incapable of doing its job due to the obstruction.


Angela Pattrelli kept saying the only way to kill them is to destroy the power at the source. I don't nessesarily think 1 shot to the head would do it unless you got lucky and shot the exact spot the power is active in.




I don't think the writers are consistent personally. I am glad HRG survived, but I don't think he should have according to what they have said about the way this ability works.

Unless of course you want to believe that the shot through the eye missed the brain entirely, but the angle he was shot at I sincerely doubt it.

[Xanderman]

Well Claire and Peter were both dead, we saw no indication that they had any brain activity. But with what happened with HRG, we saw that no brain activity is required to kickstart r-blood activity anyway, so there's no reason to assume the same wouldn't be true for Claire and Peter. Their power is simply to constantly produce r-blood instead of regular blood, which circulates constantly and is what keeps them young. If they are killed, r-blood is still around to do its thing, and will as long as the brain can be repaired, as body life is not possible without brain life.

As soon as the show introduced the whole "healing blood" angle, it totally eliminated the idea of the power being direct healing in my view. As regeneration/healing was identical (as effective and quick) in the power holders as it was in people who merely received a dose of their blood. To me, this automatically means the power in their brains is the ability to produce this special blood. I don't see any other explanation that really works. Personally I wish they hadn't done this, but clearly they did it for story purposes. So other characters could die/be killed, but be brought back (like they did with both Nathan and HRG). But also, it was undoubtedly done for the new storyline involving the virus.

So as for what Angela said, your thinking on the subject is that if the special area in the brain is hit, only then are Adam/Peter/Claire finished by a shot in the head. However if I'm right with my r-blood theory, then even if the area is hit, existing r-blood would heal the damage, pushing the bullet out as it healed (as it did with HRG). My view is that if an irreplaceable part of the brain is damaged/destroyed by a gunshot, this is what finishes them, and this is what Adam fears. Areas where memories are stored, personality etc, everything we add to our brains during life that aren't coded for in our DNA (the power is coded for in the DNA so the special brain area should be able to be restored). Any regeneration of non-coded for parts of the brain would produce "blank" brain areas, without the memories or changes gained from living/experiences. So even if their brains are healed after such damage, it would only produce vegetables.

[The Ninth Doctor]

I know I said I'd drop out of the discussion, but I'm compelled to add something really quickly. Here's a way for the major inconsistencies of the blood to be solved:

The healing blood, after being activated by a healer's brain, is programmed to try and heal the brain before it heals the rest of the body (so that we don't have Walking Dead claire running around I guess). So if something is blocking it from reaching the brain- a stick, a piece of glass, a bullet- it wouldn't heal them, because it can't finish its prime directive. This fits the onscreen evidence of Claire in the autopsy room- once the obstruction is removed, her head revives before the rest of her heals. HRG was shot in the eye- not in the brain stem, where Peter instructed Claire to shoot him to kill him permanently- thus nothing was blocking the blood from fulfilling this directive.

Also then, what Adam and Mrs. Petrelli said is still true- it's just the brain stem and surrounding blood vessels (still part of the brain), not the cerebrum or celebellum that needs to be destroyed.

I'd think that the blood that is already in the brain is on a lower healing rate than that in the rest of the body- it does not constantly heal, since the brain is constantly changing, I'd think it'd mess it up quite a bit if it was. Instead, when it detects a severance, it induces the grey eyed state, to preserve the brain from decay. Body Healing blood, upon coming into contact with grey eyed blood, would then know that it's ok to turn on healing in the brain, though as Peter demonstrated, this can also be done consciously.
Thoughts?

[Yoshua]

With the blank slate. Originally it was thought that the haitians power wiped the memory, if that is true then when peters healing ability healed his brain of the hatians power then the healing ability does bring back what was lost.


If the hatian only covers over parts and makes them inaccessible, then that means in theory the healing blood could cure the memories of anyone the Hatian has affected.



They havent said for sure how his ability works other than he claims he 'removes' the memories from their head like strings. Which would indicate they no longer exist.



Anyways, not so sure about that aspect. I know that angela said to 'kill' peter shoot him in the head. Least I remember she said kill, to parkman.

[Xanderman]

The healing blood, after being activated by a healer's brain, is programmed to try and heal the brain before it heals the rest of the body (so that we don't have Walking Dead claire running around I guess). So if something is blocking it from reaching the brain- a stick, a piece of glass, a bullet- it wouldn't heal them, because it can't finish its prime directive. This fits the onscreen evidence of Claire in the autopsy room- once the obstruction is removed, her head revives before the rest of her heals. HRG was shot in the eye- not in the brain stem, where Peter instructed Claire to shoot him to kill him permanently- thus nothing was blocking the blood from fulfilling this directive.

Also then, what Adam and Mrs. Petrelli said is still true- it's just the brain stem and surrounding blood vessels (still part of the brain), not the cerebrum or celebellum that needs to be destroyed.

I'd think that the blood that is already in the brain is on a lower healing rate than that in the rest of the body- it does not constantly heal, since the brain is constantly changing, I'd think it'd mess it up quite a bit if it was. Instead, when it detects a severance, it induces the grey eyed state, to preserve the brain from decay. Body Healing blood, upon coming into contact with grey eyed blood, would then know that it's ok to turn on healing in the brain, though as Peter demonstrated, this can also be done consciously.
Thoughts?Yes it does seem that r-blood heals or tries to heal the brain first, to restore brain life, as body life isn't possible without brain life. Whether it is naturally "programmed" in some way to function like this is unclear, but it must be I guess otherwise it would seem that r-blood has a mind of its own. It seems that r-blood's primary role is to restore "life" first, and then heal other damage. Perhaps it can't work in a lifeless body, as "healing" is something a living organism does, not a dead one. But if that were the case, how did it heal the brains of Claire, Peter and HRG starting from lifelessness? This implies r-blood to either possess some sort of "higher" level of action (innate "programming"), that it somehow has a mind of its own, or that it is directed by 'God' or something like some of Hiro's leaps seem to have been. heh (It's hard to explain the regen power, or perhaps the show is just screwing up, changing things whenever they feel like it, without regard for consistency.)

As for the brain stem being key, I think that it's not really whether the brain stem itself is specifically hit/damaged that is critical, it's simply the size of the object in the brain that is the limiting factor, no matter what part of the brain is impacted. If it's just a bullet that penetrates the stem, r-blood can push it out as it heals.


Instead, when it detects a severance, it induces the grey eyed state, to preserve the brain from decay. Body Healing blood, upon coming into contact with grey eyed blood, would then know that it's ok to turn on healing in the brain, though as Peter demonstrated, this can also be done consciously. Thoughts?I'm not sure about the greyeye blood vs body blood distinction, but the presence of r-blood in a dead person's brain is definitely connected to greyed over eyes. It happened with Claire, Peter, and after HRG was injected (his eyes temporarily greyed over before reviving). So while the grey eyes might just indicate the presence of the blood and nothing more, it could very well also mean the person is in some sort of unique state, of preservation perhaps, as we both have speculated.



If the hatian only covers over parts and makes them inaccessible, then that means in theory the healing blood could cure the memories of anyone the Hatian has affected.Agreed. I don't think what the Haitian does is irreversible damage, he just masks memories or renders them inaccessible in some way as you said. Modern science/doctors probably wouldn't know how to "unlock" the memories that the Haitian has hidden away, but that doesn't mean r-blood can't restore them to working order. "Irreversible" damage/memory loss would only occur if the memories are completely destroyed, such as if one were to yank out a chunk of brain in a person's head where memories are stored, or have the area blown out by a close shotgun blast or something (something Adam is probably aware of, so he tries to protect his head at all costs, heh).



They havent said for sure how his ability works other than he claims he 'removes' the memories from their head like strings. Which would indicate they no longer exist.You're right, the wording they've used seems to imply the memories are truly removed/gone, and that's problematic, as Peter healing from it wouldn't really make sense then, or as much sense as it could. Because how can you bring back memories from nothingness (the info isn't stored in the DNA, just in the brain).


Anyways, not so sure about that aspect. I know that angela said to 'kill' peter shoot him in the head. Least I remember she said kill, to parkman.True, they've implied shooting a person in the head will get the job done permanently, but later of course seemed to go against that with HRG coming back from being shot in the head (through the eye). Or perhaps Angela just believed or meant that one could "temporarily" kill the person by shooting them in the head (temporary since if the bullet is removed, the brain should heal, just as what happened after the other objects were pulled out previously). Perhaps Angela doesn't really have it straight though, or is holding back the complete picture, or is lying. Only Adam likely knows for sure, but we can't really believe anything he says.

[The Ninth Doctor]

And maybe even Adam doesn't know. It's possible he's never met another healer, but has discovered that the powers do come from the brain, and thus believes that should his brain be damaged he will die.

[Yoshua]

Hmmm looks like I was right from start to finish.

The power is a chemical in the brain for everyone. Not the blood.


Sometimes it's nice to be right. not saying just saying.

[Xanderman]

^lol not so fast Yoshua.:lol: The power source is connected to the brain/adrenaline/whatever, but Claire/Adam's power itself is the production of special healing blood. The blood itself does the healing, as evidenced by it working on other people.

And I'm not sure why Sylar said he couldn't kill Claire even if he wanted to. In that S1 AU episode it was implied Claire was killed by Sylar. In Angela's dreams we see a beheaded Claire who is clearly dead and not coming back (unless somebody reconnects the head to the body I guess?). Beheading, destroying the brain etc seem to clearly be ways to kill them.

As for Adam living forever in the coffin, nothing that happened in these first 2 S3 eps really conclusively supports that either. With no food/air/energy source, reason dictates that brain activity can't continue on forever, as that consumes energy. Unless the special blood itself is somehow a self-renewing energy source, as we've discussed.

[Yoshua]

^lol not so fast Yoshua.:lol: The power source is connected to the brain/adrenaline/whatever, but Claire/Adam's power itself is the production of special healing blood. The blood itself does the healing, as evidenced by it working on other people.

And I'm not sure why Sylar said he couldn't kill Claire even if he wanted to. In that S1 AU episode it was implied Claire was killed by Sylar. In Angela's dreams we see a beheaded Claire who is clearly dead and not coming back (unless somebody reconnects the head to the body I guess?). Beheading, destroying the brain etc seem to clearly be ways to kill them.

As for Adam living forever in the coffin, nothing that happened in these first 2 S3 eps really conclusively supports that either. With no food/air/energy source, reason dictates that brain activity can't continue on forever, as that consumes energy. Unless the special blood itself is somehow a self-renewing energy source, as we've discussed.

The living forever was stated in the online web comic. Special blood is irrelevant.


The power is in the brain, not the blood. The brain tells the cells to regenerate. This gives the blood healing properties. But I Garuntee you if you slowed down their temps and removed every ounce of blood in their body, warmed them back up their body would still heal themselves.


The power is in the brain. not the blood. 100% of the time, proven in episodes 3.1/2. Adrenaline gives the initial boost to activate the power but when they learn to control their abilities, or after they are activated, adrenaline isn't required. The ability has already been activated.


People like Maya who have no control over their powers then adrenaline or fight/fligh instinct can kick them on, but once she learns to truly control it then she wouldn't be as susceptible to the fight/flight.


Just like Peter. Originally he had no control over his innate ability. Now he does.

[Xanderman]

We're sort of on the same wavelength in some ways Yoshua, but at the same time we're not. Blood, removed from the power-holder's bodies/brains, still being able to heal others, to me clearly says that the power is the ability to create this special blood. I really can't see it any other way.

Unlike Linderman for example who heals others by touch or whatever, the Claire/Adam ability is different. If you removed Linderman's blood for example, I'm sure it wouldn't heal others, because his power to heal others is directly sourced in his brain. The power which seems to be sourced in Claire and Adam's brains however, is not the direct ability to heal as with Linderman, but instead the power to produce special blood, constantly throughout their lives, allowing them to halt aging indefinitely. And since the blood itself is made special by their power, it can be extracted and used on others with exactly the same results.

[Yoshua]

...And since the blood itself is made special by their power, it can be extracted and used on others with exactly the same results.

So long as the part of the brain that makes the chemical responsible for the abilities is connected to it.

For instance, if claire has a stick in her head and you extract blood then that blood will do NOTHING for someone else, because it is doing nothing for claire.

The chemical in the brain has to maintain constant contact with the blood it is affecting otherwise the blood instantly loses its healing properties.


If it didn't, then her blood would have healed everything except the brain which meant her chest would heal during the autopsie (s/p?)

Or all the cuts on Peters face would have been healed with the glass in his head.


The power resides in the chemical the brain creates, without it the blood is useless. I would LOVE to see what would happen to the blood they extracted if she were to 'die' with something lodged in her head.



There was a recent web comic with a man who could create clones. They called him a root and the clones were branches.


If a branch died the root felt it but would survive. If the root died the branches, all of them, hundreds of them, died all at the same time.


So, if that holds true with his power, I wonder if claire died would her blood that has already been extracted instantly become useless and normal blood?

[The_Frag_Man]

Now we know for sure that he wasn't constantly dying/reviving, but was in torpor.

High fives for everyone who agreed with me.

Edit:

I'll just quote myself here (from 12-05-2007):


No, that's not my theory. He will asphyxiate from the lack of oxygen, and enter the same state as what claire and peter and noah entered upon their 'deaths' that is, a state of torpor.

He will come out of it when the obstruction is removed, in this case a lack of oxygen, so he will be stuck in torpor until he is exhumed.

VVV *high fives Xanderman* :)

[Xanderman]

high fives Frag Man :D :lol:



If it didn't, then her blood would have healed everything except the brain which meant her chest would heal during the autopsie (s/p?)

Or all the cuts on Peters face would have been healed with the glass in his head.We've talked about a possible explanation for this before... That being, a brain-dead person is basically all dead. Just as "natural" healing doesn't occur in a dead body, so neither does it occur even within a person with "super healing". Not until brain life is first restored. And if that is being blocked from happening, the special blood does nothing. (On the other hand, HRG had a bullet in his head, but that was a small object that could be pushed out as the r-blood did its thing--r-blood's first action seems to be to restore life in the body itself--and that starts with the brain--healing other parts of the body are secondary effects that require the primary to first be realized).

You posted this in a recent thread:



The comics confirmed that he would die and wake up an infinite amount of times. The only thing the episode confirmed was that he was dead when the coffin was opened for dramatic effect.Which comic said that....the comic I read had Adam say he had died/awoken/died more times than he could count, and he wasn't sure if it was days or weeks that passed or something like that. Dying and waking up an INFINITE amount of times in such an environment is a real stretch however and doesn't make sense (for the reasons I've discussed many times) so please point me to the comic which confirms this as a fact of his ability. Then this debate will finally be over and you'll never hear from me again.:) heh

I posted the below in another thread in response to RedPhoenix...it's connected to this discussion so I figured I'd stick it here too to keep everything in one place.


The comic showed that he died over and over and over again. I think he was just in a "dead" state when Hiro first opened the coffin.Maybe so but personally I don't think this cycle could have gone on forever either way. Without air/food/water/energy he can't keep coming back for a few seconds of more consciousness forever and ever and ever. Unless the special blood he produces can act as a self-sustaining energy source as well? A replacement for air and water too? If that's the case then neither he nor Claire should ever experience hunger or thirst, or even need to breathe. In the comic Adam says he died "more times than he could count", and that he wasn't sure how much time had passed. It's my belief that such a cycle wouldn't persist forever, that eventually he'd just stay dead (or in a death-like state) until returned to an environment which supports life. I'd say that what the show did last night supports this idea to a degree, as he regained consciousness only after being exposed to air again. It could have been just part of the "cycle" yes, but if they really wanted us to think that or push that concept to the audience then they really should have shown him already awake with his arms immediately outstretched to strangle Hiro as soon he saw his face. lol

[Yoshua]

Now we know for sure that he wasn't constantly dying/reviving, but was in torpor.

High fives for everyone who agreed with me.

Edit:

I'll just quote myself here (from 12-05-2007):



VVV *high fives Xanderman* :)

LoL.

Not according to the explicit information in the webcomic that was generally accepted that he would continue to wake up and die. Continueing to use 'torpor' in sentences doesn't make it true.



The only question left that is a valid question was that if it would go on indefinately, or if he would eventually run out of energy and die.


Xanderman believes he would eventually die, I don't.


Lol Torpor has nothing to do with it. Go back and re read the web comic. The only thing that episode 3.4 proves is that he was not alive when the coffin was open. There was no 'grey eyes' as you previously stated would be required for the torpor.
and even if there was, it wouldn't have proven torpor because the show uses 'grey eyes' as an effect for alot of things, not just death or abilities use. Noah's eye was grey before they put the regen blood in him, and peter's eyes were grey with the shard in his head.

lol, torpor.... not even close to what they portrayed on screen or in comics.

----- Added 2 Minutes later -----


high fives Frag Man :D :lol:


We've talked about a possible explanation for this before... That being, a brain-dead person is basically all dead. Just as "natural" healing doesn't occur in a dead body, so neither does it occur even within a person with "super healing". Not until brain life is first restored. And if that is being blocked from happening, the special blood does nothing. (On the other hand, HRG had a bullet in his head, but that was a small object that could be pushed out as the r-blood did its thing--r-blood's first action seems to be to restore life in the body itself--and that starts with the brain--healing other parts of the body are secondary effects that require the primary to first be realized).

You posted this in a recent thread:

Which comic said that....the comic I read had Adam say he had died/awoken/died more times than he could count, and he wasn't sure if it was days or weeks that passed or something like that. Dying and waking up an INFINITE amount of times in such an environment is a real stretch however and doesn't make sense (for the reasons I've discussed many times) so please point me to the comic which confirms this as a fact of his ability. Then this debate will finally be over and you'll never hear from me again.:) heh

I posted the below in another thread in response to RedPhoenix...it's connected to this discussion so I figured I'd stick it here too to keep everything in one place.

Maybe so but personally I don't think this cycle could have gone on forever either way. Without air/food/water/energy he can't keep coming back for a few seconds of more consciousness forever and ever and ever. Unless the special blood he produces can act as a self-sustaining energy source as well? A replacement for air and water too? If that's the case then neither he nor Claire should ever experience hunger or thirst, or even need to breathe. In the comic Adam says he died "more times than he could count", and that he wasn't sure how much time had passed. It's my belief that such a cycle wouldn't persist forever, that eventually he'd just stay dead (or in a death-like state) until returned to an environment which supports life. I'd say that what the show did last night supports this idea to a degree, as he regained consciousness only after being exposed to air again. It could have been just part of the "cycle" yes, but if they really wanted us to think that or push that concept to the audience then they really should have shown him already awake with his arms immediately outstretched to strangle Hiro as soon he saw his face. lol

If you really believed in Torpor you would be saying that he never woke up after the coffin ran out of air. No where on screen or in the comics does it state that. And stating that he keeps waking up and dieing shows he.... keeps waking up and dieing....

lol


I agree our only real argument left is how long it would go on for, but don't feed into Frag Man's delusions about torpor to try to push your point. I concede that because he wasn't in the coffin indefinitely we don't know if he would have died eventually. But according to Claire continually stating she can never die, i highly doubt she would die from a lack of oxygen and her body doesn't need extraordinarily large amounts of calories to perform its healing ability. It just does it.

[The_Frag_Man]

I agree our only real argument left is how long it would go on for, but don't feed into Frag Man's delusions about torpor to try to push your point. I concede that because he wasn't in the coffin indefinitely we don't know if he would have died eventually. But according to Claire continually stating she can never die, i highly doubt she would die from a lack of oxygen and her body doesn't need extraordinarily large amounts of calories to perform its healing ability. It just does it.

How do you spin what happened between Claire and her biological mom in the container? You know, where she was choking because her mom was burning the air.

And don't resort to insults.

E: Oh, and it wasn't just hurting her, because she can't feel pain anymore.

[Yoshua]

How do you spin what happened between Claire and her biological mom in the container? You know, where she was choking because her mom was burning the air.

And don't resort to insults.

E: Oh, and it wasn't just hurting her, because she can't feel pain anymore.

ummm she would have died, and she would have woken up. It was the feeling of helplessness that claire was experiencing that she didnt like. No spin needed.


The fire wouldn't have hurt her, and obviously with Adam dieing and waking up in the web comics the lack of air wouldnt have done anything either.

[Xanderman]

I agree our only real argument left is how long it would go on forFair enough. If they're going to remain true to the web comic, they're probably gonna have Adam tell Hiro about the living hell he was in (dying, coming back, dying) in the next episode or something eh...

Anyway is it just me or are they not being the most clear/consistent when it comes to Claire/Adam's power.... Sylar tells her it's impossible for her to die now or something, like she has "grown" in power, and yet in yesterday's ep F-Claire said something about shooting Peter in the back of the head (the special spot) to kill him didn't she? But if Peter has absorbed Claire's ability (which has apparently grown to true immortality as per Sylar's comments?), then nothing should be able to kill him either (unless the Haitian is around blocking powers of course).

And of course technically speaking despite Sylar's grand remarks, Claire can be killed, as long as the Haitian is around right... the Haitian is her biggest threat (he's everyone's biggest threat isn't he). Lucky for her he's on her side.

[The Ninth Doctor]

hmmmm.....

Kaito said that there was one pureblood. Which would mean Claire is more special than Adam.


We've seen that Sylar's Intuitive Aptitude can't be blocked by the Hatian, nor can it be absorbed normally by Peter.

What if Peter couldn't fully absorb Claire's ability either? And if that's true, then mightn't the Hatian not be able to block it?

[Yoshua]

hmmmm.....

Kaito said that there was one pureblood. Which would mean Claire is more special than Adam.


We've seen that Sylar's Intuitive Aptitude can't be blocked by the Hatian, nor can it be absorbed normally by Peter.

What if Peter couldn't fully absorb Claire's ability either? And if that's true, then mightn't the Hatian not be able to block it?

I don't remember that, what episode did he talk about one pure blood? I musta missed something.

[The Ninth Doctor]

In the video he left Hiro.

I think.

Maybe I'm going insane.

[Yoshua]

In the video he left Hiro.

I think.

Maybe I'm going insane.

no it's totally possible. I'll have to find a way to watch the first ep of the season again, havent been able to record this season..... conflict of interests with the lady of the house. She lets me watch heroes if i record her show.

[The Ninth Doctor]

NBC.com should have the episodes up. But nbc.com's player keeps breaking for me, so I'd recomend Hulu.com, where nbc has also legally posted them for viewing (but not the commentaries to my ire)