Lionel did not know about Lara

[xrayvision]

It strikes me as odd that Lionel didn't know who Lara was when he is Jor-El's emissary. He must still be the emissary if Zor-El tracked him down. I still wonder how he found him. Can he hear Jor-El's transmissions to Lionel's brain? Or is Lionel working with Zor-El, meaning Zor-El's will has been controlling the FOS all this time and in Blue used reverse logic to get Clark to plug the blue crystal in the console? I don't think Zor-El can read minds (he's not telepathic like Martian Manhunter). But if the FOS Jor-El programming is really the will of the real Zor-El and if Lionel is this FOS Zor-El's emissary, then it would make sense why he would go to Lionel. Zor-El attacking Lionel could have been his way to draw out Clark.

This really makes me wonder because last time we saw the FOS Jor-El, he told Clark that Kara can't be trusted. Now it is Kara who has disappeared and lost her memory. Is it a coincidence that the person the FOS Jor-El said not to trust is the same one who disappears and loses her memory? I can't make up my mind.

[ginnyfan]

Zor-el said the crystals lead him right to Lionel. Also... it didn't seem like Lionel was still Jor-el's emissary, just that Zor-el knew that he was at one time and he wanted to Lionel to advise Clark deceitfully.

I wonder if "the crystals" would have pointed to Lex as Zod's vessel.

[xrayvision]

Which crystals? The white ones in the FOS?

[Harrison_Bergeron]

Interesting that Lionel knew what Zor-El looked like.

[moviefan2k4]

IMO, the reason why the Jor-El AI shows distrust towards Kara is because she is Zor-El's daughter. It's the whole "the apple does not fall far from the tree" scenario. Jor-El appaears to believe that since Zor-El was evil, Kara will be also, no matter what.

[xrayvision]

^^What wouldn't this episode convince him otherwise? Or was Jor-El deactivated during those events meaning everything that happened was not picked up by him?

I think he (or whoever is in the FOS in case it is Zor-El) did send Kara to Detroit.

[chantal]

I think he figured out whom Zor El was by what he said, not what he looked like. He may have been prepped by MM, if not by Jor El. MM seems to think that Lionel is still Jor El's emissary. And why would Lionel risk his life by defying Zor El if he wasn't still the emissary? I think MB Lionel would have bs'ed his way out of that confrontation, agreeing with what ZE wanted. Look at the way he conned Marilyn.

[xrayvision]

^^I agree. I think Lionel will be the emissary to the day he dies. I think Lionel as the emissary is a more human version of the Jor-El AI helping Clark. Lionel's emotions can be used for a more accurate depiction of the real Jor-El (though I doubt the real Jor-El did all those evil things).

[ginnyfan]

Originally posted by xrayvision
Which crystals? The white ones in the FOS?

I don't know what crystals but Clark has not explored the fortress... maybe the A.I. keeps records there or something. Zor-el said the crystals led him to Lionel.

If Lionel were connected to Jor-el his eyes would have been white and he would have had Kryptonian strength right?

Perhaps he still remembers the information from containing Jor-el but... he doesn't contain him anymore...

I do think Lionel is working to help Clark fulfill his destiny though. In "Wrath" Clark jumped to the conclusion that Lionel was down on Lana because he wanted Clark to fulfill his destiny.

[xrayvision]

I wonder if Helen Slater is to appear in any more episodes. I would like to see a scene between her and Lionel (and her and Jor-El).

Maybe she is still there. I noticed a blue tint in the FOS even after Clark shattered the crystal. A blue tint that is not the normal color of the FOS. I wonder if it meant something.

[ginnyfan]

I would like to see her return but I think it's unlikely. I thoroughly enjoyed her Lara.

[xrayvision]

She did a great job. Maybe if there is another season she could also pop up in the FOS, like Lara did in Superman II.

[xrayvision]

A reason why Lionel didn't know who Lara was could be that the blue crystal deactivated Jor-El for the time it was plugged into the FOS.

I'm still not sure whose AI in the FOS (Jor-El's or Zor-El's), but I have theories for both scenarios. My current theory on the AI being Jor-El's states that there are 2 stages of the AI. The first stage was activated in Calling/Exodus. That stage was to do anything to get Clark to secure the stones and save Earth. The 2nd stage of the AI was intended to be downloaded to the crystal that created the FOS when 2 out of the 3 stones were placed on the altar in the cave. But this never happened and the 2nd stage of the AI was downloaded into Lionel. The 2nd stage of the AI according to my theory is the version of the AI that would be much more like the real Jor-El.

So assuming Lionel has this 2nd stage of the AI in him still, I'm guessing that the blue crystal transmitted a signal that disrupted the AI programming in Lionel's mind while it was plugged in. I'm also guessing that the crystal was programmed to supply a tone to Zor-El so he could identify the source of Jor-El's AI (much like the shrill humming noise the stones gave when they were released from the artifacts they were buried in). This definitely makes sense based on what they showed in the episode.

[WickedJenn]

For verification purposes...just after Lionel was attacked, was he in "vessel mode" at that point? Because he seemed to be talking like he was...

[ClarksGal]

I just think that Lionel keeps how much he knows about everything from Clark. In the episode where Lionel asked about Clarks' cousin, Clark lied to him about her being Kryptonian. But clearly Lionel knew she was, if not before then by the time that he helped save them, when he saw she was being experimented on with Kryptonite. When she came to, she called Clark Kal El. Obviously he knows about Kara, and would probably know that Zor El was her father. Whether he knows this through Jor El or the MM, who knows?

I didn't think Lionel seemed all that surprised to see Zor El. He may have been expecting him. And I think he is just making Clark think that he doesn't know what's going on, because he knows that Clark doesn't trust him.

[STFanatic]

Maybe Lara/Slater will be a reoccurring character in the Supergirl spin off should it happen.

[xrayvision]

Originally posted by WickedJenn
For verification purposes...just after Lionel was attacked, was he in "vessel mode" at that point? Because he seemed to be talking like he was...

Well, him not knowing who Lara was made me think the vessel mode was temporarily deactivated by the blue crystal in the FOS. But then again, maybe not. Maybe like ClarksGal said, he's pretending not to know who Lara is to avoid startling Clark with the knowledge he has.

If my theory about the 2 stages of the AI is true, then it's likely that the AI in Lionel is independent of the FOS until it somehow merges and overrides the AI in the FOS as I believe it was originally intended (per my theory).

But at the minimum, I would say that when the blue crystal is not plugged into the FOS console, that Lionel is always in vessel/oracle/emissary mode. I think he was somewhat limited in season 5 for some reason (he only went into that mode when his eyes turned white), but as of the end of Zod when we saw him writing those symbols and his eyes seemed normal, I'm saying he was and has always been in emissary mode. I think Zor-El programmed the crystal so it would detect the presence of Jor-El or any AI of his and would send a tone that Zor-El would track down to Jor-El's (or his AI's) very location/source. I think the Zor-El & Lara replicants from the crystal operate at very similar frequencies that the Jor-El AI does. They may in fact be the same with the addition of having their own physical bodies.

[WickedJenn]

Originally posted by xrayvision
Well, him not knowing who Lara was made me think the vessel mode was temporarily deactivated by the blue crystal in the FOS. But then again, maybe not. Maybe like ClarksGal said, he's pretending not to know who Lara is to avoid startling Clark with the knowledge he has.

If my theory about the 2 stages of the AI is true, then it's likely that the AI in Lionel is independent of the FOS until it somehow merges and overrides the AI in the FOS as I believe it was originally intended (per my theory).

But at the minimum, I would say that when the blue crystal is not plugged into the FOS console, that Lionel is always in vessel/oracle/emissary mode. I think he was somewhat limited in season 5 for some reason (he only went into that mode when his eyes turned white), but as of the end of Zod when we saw him writing those symbols and his eyes seemed normal, I'm saying he was and has always been in emissary mode. I think Zor-El programmed the crystal so it would detect the presence of Jor-El or any AI of his and would send a tone that Zor-El would track down to Jor-El's (or his AI's) very location/source. I think the Zor-El & Lara replicants from the crystal operate at very similar frequencies that the Jor-El AI does. They may in fact be the same with the addition of having their own physical bodies.

Hmm, that sounds good regarding your theory on why Lionel supposedly didn't know who Lara was.

I think so too, now that you say that...regarding Lionel always being in vessel mode. Even when Zor-El stormed in there, he right away said "Jor-El's vessel!" which would lend some weight to your theory about the signals.

[Crispin Glover]

Lionel new Lara he just mentioned it to Clark while he was on a stretcher so as not you let any of the medics know anything about Clark. By just saying Zor-El wanted a person named Lara he's telling Clark what he needs to hear without revealing Clark's secret or heritage to anyone there.

[xrayvision]

You could have a point there. Though I would think instead of saying "person named Lara" he would have just said Lara. When he said "person named Lara" it immediately seemed to me that he didn't know of Lara. We'll have to see.

[WickedJenn]

Good points on both there.

[xrayvision]

What I wonder is if we'll see Lionel as an emissary ever go to the FOS to talk to the Jor-El AI there. That would be a very weird scene.

[chantal]

Both Jor El and MM knew that Kara and her crystal were here, and they were expecting some kind of threat from Zor El. It would make sense that Lionel would be filled in on that. Neither JE or MM knew about Lara's DNA being in the crystal, so there was no reason to mention her to Lionel. Apparently, Lionel wasn't given all of Jor El's memories, just the information the JE AI needs him to have, so he would not know about Lara.

[TampaVille]

It is entirely possible to be an emissary on behalf of somebody without being downloaded with that person's consciousness, knowledge, and personality, lol.

[xrayvision]

Originally posted by chantal
Both Jor El and MM knew that Kara and her crystal were here, and they were expecting some kind of threat from Zor El. It would make sense that Lionel would be filled in on that. Neither JE or MM knew about Lara's DNA being in the crystal, so there was no reason to mention her to Lionel. Apparently, Lionel wasn't given all of Jor El's memories, just the information the JE AI needs him to have, so he would not know about Lara.

I think you made good points. But I'm guessing he has some of Jor-El's AI in him, and perhaps the part he has is much smaller than the part that's in the FOS. I think he has the part that will make the FOS AI more humane when he finally releases it. And I think he got that AI from the stone that was in his pocket in Commencement. My theory says that when his Jor-el AI combines with that of the cave, we will have the FOS Jor-El we all have been waiting for.

[M0RGAN]

Originally posted by chantal
I think he figured out whom Zor El was by what he said, not what he looked like. He may have been prepped by MM, if not by Jor El. MM seems to think that Lionel is still Jor El's emissary. And why would Lionel risk his life by defying Zor El if he wasn't still the emissary? I think MB Lionel would have bs'ed his way out of that confrontation, agreeing with what ZE wanted. Look at the way he conned Marilyn. I agree. MB wouldn't have even blinked when the ultimatum was thrown at him. But on the same note, he is definitely holding something back. If he recognized Zor' El then logically he would recognize the names of Kara & Lara. (His reaction to Kara's name & his question to Clark of "Which father's" side of the family Kara came from certainly intimated that he knew who Kara was.) Why hasn't he said anything? I'm wondering if he is still under orders by Jor' El to keep mum on what he knows.


Originally posted by xrayvision
You could have a point there. Though I would think instead of saying "person named Lara" he would have just said Lara. When he said "person named Lara" it immediately seemed to me that he didn't know of Lara. We'll have to see. Yes, it sounds as though he is distancing himself from the information.

[Clarks Blue Eyed Angel]

Originally posted by ClarksGal
I just think that Lionel keeps how much he knows about everything from Clark. In the episode where Lionel asked about Clarks' cousin, Clark lied to him about her being Kryptonian. But clearly Lionel knew she was, if not before then by the time that he helped save them, when he saw she was being experimented on with Kryptonite. When she came to, she called Clark Kal El. Obviously he knows about Kara, and would probably know that Zor El was her father. Whether he knows this through Jor El or the MM, who knows?

I didn't think Lionel seemed all that surprised to see Zor El. He may have been expecting him. And I think he is just making Clark think that he doesn't know what's going on, because he knows that Clark doesn't trust him.

Exactly what I was gonna say.

Didn't Lionel lead Martha and Clark to believe, a while back, that he was no longer connected to Jor-El?