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lana kent 04

11-08-2007, 07:01 PM

obsession stronger than love? lex has never even been capable of love, he's too evil so how would even know? and to put the idea in clark's head that he's the one who's corrupted lana is ridiculous. if it hadn't been for lex screwing up lana's head so much she wouldn't be like she is now!

HalJordan4184

11-08-2007, 07:03 PM

Clark did contribute to screwing Lana up. It harkens all the way back to the beginning, with the original secrets and lies. He demnads full disclosure, while disclosing nothing. He expects a perfect relationship, but without putting much into it on his end.

Clark is not the ideal boyfriend, and never has been, which is really sad, as he should be. He is part of what made Lana how she is. Sure, Lex furthered the damage. However, had it not been for Clark, and their initial relationship failures, there probably never would have been a Lex.

lana kent 04

11-08-2007, 07:08 PM

i know he contributed, but to make clark think that he's the reason for her behaviour is just stupid. it's just the type of thing lex does.

HalJordan4184

11-08-2007, 07:11 PM

Lex didn't deny his own involvement. He merely pointed out to Clark, the fact Clark's "hands were just as dirty". If it hadn't been for the initial betrayals of Clark, there never would have been a Lex. It's cause and effect, and Lex pointed out that Clark was the intial cause.

Clark might not have been the proverbial pilot dropping the bomb, but he set the course, and speed, and picked the target.

JeLLy123

11-08-2007, 07:17 PM

Lana deff does not love him tho thats where hes messed up in the mind like she hates him soo much

lana kent 04

11-08-2007, 07:17 PM

i don't believe that clark set the course at all. all he ever wanted was to be with lana but he had to protecteher by not telling her his secret. lex is 100% twisted and evil and to put them in the same category as far as lana's corruption is incomparable.

paolinki25

11-08-2007, 07:19 PM

Lex's lines hit Clark pretty hard. Obsession and hunger for revenge can definitely blind people, and it's definitely stronger than love when that obsession becomes the purpose of your life.

ClarksGal

11-08-2007, 07:19 PM

HalJordan4184

11-08-2007, 07:21 PM

Originally posted by lana kent 04
i don't believe that clark set the course at all. all he ever wanted was to be with lana but he had to protecteher by not telling her his secret. lex is 100% twisted and evil and to put them in the same category as far as lana's corruption is incomparable.

Loving someone does not mean you can do no wrong. In fact, it's only through something like love, that we can really hurt someone. Sure, Clark loves Lana. However, that doesn't mean, that in his course of "protecting her", he didn't hurt her, and set her on the course she is on. His protection, is the very thing that hurt her the most throughout the show.

CLanaF23

11-08-2007, 08:12 PM

migo

11-09-2007, 05:49 AM

If Lex hadn't dropped the comment about Whitney tying Clark up in the corn field, the Clana thing wouldn't have started.

Lex used the chick with the hypnotizing stone to make Clark say he didn't love Lana.

Then, when Clark wanted to marry Lana, Lex went crazy and Lana died, so Clark had to rewind time and trade Lana for Jonathan.

Had Lex not gone crazy, Clark and Lana would have been happily married for years.

closetclana

11-09-2007, 08:20 AM

IMO Lana does have stronger feelings for Lex than Clark. Remember the oposite of love is not hate it's apathy. Hate and love are pretty close - they both involve obsessive strong feelings - one is just positive and the other negative.

I think Lana still loves Lex on some levels. Lex is really the only one who loved (and still does) Lana for who she truly is. Lana realizes that. That is why she said something to Clark in this episode along the line of how she wanted him to see her for the person she really was and not the illusion he has built up for himself. When Lex was trying to seduce Lana he used this same angle saying how he understands her and how they are the same. In lots of ways they are the same.

Lana is really a tragic character. Her main motivation from the beginning of SV has been that she desperately wants to be loved (at any cost). It was this deep seated need that has pushed her to this point - Clark and Lex both just helped her along the way.

jimmyolsenblues

11-09-2007, 08:37 AM

i think lex is a product of his nature and nurture. He was never loved unconditionally and therefore does not know how to love.
To lex his obsession is all he has because its all he knows. For Lex its true to him that obsession is stronger.
For me obsession is way easier than loving someone unconditionally.
To each is own reality.

Humdinger

11-09-2007, 08:42 AM

Originally posted by HalJordan4184
Lex didn't deny his own involvement. He merely pointed out to Clark, the fact Clark's "hands were just as dirty". If it hadn't been for the initial betrayals of Clark, there never would have been a Lex. It's cause and effect, and Lex pointed out that Clark was the intial cause.

Clark might not have been the proverbial pilot dropping the bomb, but he set the course, and speed, and picked the target.

Totally agree with this assessment. Neither of them are blameless; also, Lana is not just a victim here, she had choices and she made some bad ones.

HotStudsSuccess

11-09-2007, 10:09 AM

That's crazy. You can't blame someone one else for how the other one will turn out in life, you are responsible for your own actions.

ginnyfan

11-09-2007, 11:47 AM

Originally posted by lana kent 04
obsession stronger than love? lex has never even been capable of love, he's too evil so how would even know? and to put the idea in clark's head that he's the one who's corrupted lana is ridiculous. if it hadn't been for lex screwing up lana's head so much she wouldn't be like she is now!

Everyone is capable of love.

And Lana did a good joy of proving Lex's case. At the fair Lana suggests that from now on she and Clark should be completely honest with one another and leave the past in the past. All the whole KNOWING what she's planning. Why say it at all. Why hurt someone you "love" like that. Could be that her obsession for Lex comes before keeping her promises to Clark.

And while you can argue that Clark lied to Lana alot... is it right? And was he the one harping on honesty WHILE he lied?

It's not just in Lex's twisted mind. Lana's "depraved" spy on Lex room proves that.

margroks

11-09-2007, 11:52 AM

N, no, no. Lana is responsible for her actions; niether Lex nor Clark made her do any of these things. Lana has been self-centered, duplicitous, manipulative and unfaithful all along. She killed Jaason's mother and asked the Luithors to cover it up. No one made her what she is; she did it with her selfish obsessions and lying, cheating nature. No matter what Lex did, she is the one who decideed to do right or wrong and Lana always chooses wrong. Ther eis no excuse for Lana ans she should have been tried for the murder of Genivieve Teague long ago. Thenmaybe we'd have been spared both instances of nasty Clana sex.

Kryptonian-Ronin

11-09-2007, 11:55 AM

It needs to be said over and over again, regardless of how one feels about a character and how they are written, everyone is responsible for their own choices and actions, the buck HAS to stop there.

All about Clark

11-09-2007, 01:15 PM

Originally posted by CLanaF23
Clark breaking up with her...led to her running to lex who she thought was bein honest wit her...clark hasnt been perfect....and yea he has helped lana get how she is but for sure lex is the one most responsible...

I don't agree. Lana was already using Lex as a back-up boyfriend before Clark ever broke up with her. This is Lana's doing. Clark only felt that he pushed Lana to Lex because Clark is famous for trying to take all of the blame onto himself, leaving his pink princess as innocent. But it's not true, and Lana finally told him that these are her actions and choices even if she's messed up.

I actually think that Lex was partially right when he said that her hate for Lex will be stronger than her love for Clark. I think this is TPTB way of breaking Clana up for good, that she won't be able to let her hatred of Lex go.

But yes, Lex was twisted in blaming Clark, what a shock that was.

msleggie

11-09-2007, 01:21 PM

posted by Lana Kent 04: i know he contributed, but to make clark think that he's the reason for her behaviour is just stupid. it's just the type of thing lex does.

Exactly, that's why Clark shouldn't take everyting Lex says to literally. What happened to Lana is a combination of things, most of which has to deal with Lana's own actions and decisions.

Mello Penelo

11-09-2007, 01:26 PM

Originally posted by lana kent 04
lex has never even been capable of love

He unconditionally loved his mother. Sometimes the most heartless people are capable of real love. Love so real a lot of people don't understand it.

Kryptonian-Ronin

11-09-2007, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by Mello Penelo
He unconditionally loved his mother. Sometimes the most heartless people are capable of real love. Love so real a lot of people don't understand it.

Too bad he didn't understand his "vision" and what she wanted him to "see".

euterpe

11-11-2007, 05:55 PM

Lex never denied any responsibility in contributing to Lana’s new persona. He simply stated he was “not the first to teach Lana about betrayal”. To me that implies he is aware that he also betrayed Lana, but Clark betrayed her first. Oddly, Lex seems to acknowledge his role in all this. It’s Clark who doesn’t want to accept his role until Lex holds the mirror up to him.

I agree Lana is responsible for her actions, but both Lex AND Clark had a hand in leading her to those actions. Just as Lex is responsible for his actions, but Lionel, Lillian, Clark, Jonathon all had a hand in his fall.

And Lex is also correct in saying obsession is stronger than love. Unfortunately, that is most often the case. After all, as the old saying goes “You always hurt the ones you love most.”

CDLBLUE

11-11-2007, 07:39 PM

Lana and Lana alone is responsible for her actions and choices, to say anything else is to deny the essence of our species and our being, free will, Clark could have chosen another path, with his great powers he could have gather the wealth of the world, made himself into a modern divinity, and demanded the World to worship him, but he didn't, Lex Luthor could have been the greatest philanthropist in history, helping countless with his great wealth, but he didn't, to say that both men set Lana on her sick, twisted, and insidious course is obscene, Lana chose her own path and it has led to this, she is a killer, a whore, a liar, a blackmailer, a thief, a kidnapper, a torturer, and now a vengeful psycho. One can only hope that Clark sees it before she can hurt anybody else.

CLanaF23

11-11-2007, 08:10 PM

HalJordan4184

11-12-2007, 06:43 AM

That's exactly how it is for Lana, and the past seven seasons have shown us that.

Dor el

11-12-2007, 08:46 AM

Originally posted by HalJordan4184
Clark did contribute to screwing Lana up. It harkens all the way back to the beginning, with the original secrets and lies. He demnads full disclosure, while disclosing nothing. He expects a perfect relationship, but without putting much into it on his end.

Clark is not the ideal boyfriend, and never has been, which is really sad, as he should be. He is part of what made Lana how she is. Sure, Lex furthered the damage. However, had it not been for Clark, and their initial relationship failures, there probably never would have been a Lex.

Nope. don't agree here. Clark was not under obligation to spill his guts about his secret to Lana. She was the one making those demands and when, during the early part of their relationship, did Clark demand full disclosure? In fact, he so did not demand full disclosure, that he made up his own story of who Lana is in order to fill in the blanks because it was safer for him to make up who Lana is, rather than get to really know who she was or force secrets out of her. I'm not even sure that he suspected that she even had any secrets. But of course, everyone does. That story of Lana turned out to be a bit inaccurate.

He never claimed to be anything he wasn't. No matter how much he wanted to be something else. Perhaps, during that time he considered himself to be human when he in fact was not, he misrepresented who he was. I think he truly thought of himself as human then and that his secret was a nonissue. Many might disagree with his assessment, but it was his honest assessment.

There has never been anything perfect about the Clark/Lana relationship, yet he wanted it, dreamed of it, tried as best he could to "be the right guy" for Lana. He just wasn't. Neither could accept that. And she wasn't the right girl for him. And she wanted it too. Both of equally culpable in the failed relationship. Both have tried to get back to the dream they shared, but that dream was not real.

While Clark may not be the "perfect boyfriend", neither is Lana the perfect girlfriend. Why do you expect him to be? Relationships are neither easy, nor an exact science.? It was Lana who kept making the demands of full disclosure. Even though it was clear that Clark had not yet reached that point in his life and the degree of security and comfort that would allow him to completely confide, all his private thoughts and secrets, in Lana. He never ever denied that there were things about him that she didn't know and might not understand. I certainly understand why he might fear full disclosure. Why did she push him? I think because 1. she didn't trust him completely, 2. she was nosy, 3. knowledge is power and she wanted a little power over Clark. Divulging one's secrets can make one very vulnerable. Maybe her motives were as simple as her wanting to know him better so that their relationship would be more solid. Regardless of her motives, she pushed and pushed and pushed. She could not accept Clark on his terms. Only her terms would do. She again is making this demand. "...I gotta know that you will love me no matter what..."

Lana is who she is because of her choices. She chose to pursue Clark's secrets. She chose to run to Lex on multiple occasions when Clark upset her. She chose how she responded to the breakup. She chose to sleep with Lex. Had she not made that choice, Lex would not have been able to fake her pregnancy. Yeah, Clark and Lex both impacted who Lana is. But, it was Lana who put herself into the situations where they could impact her. Lex treated her badly, but he was "just being a Luthor". Lana knew who Lex was, and she still chose to get involved with him. I'm not excusing Lex, but Lana is equally responsible.

Clark never ever intended to hurt Lana or anyone else. Things just went badly as they sometimes do. Lana has suffered. No doubt about it. But, I think Clark has suffered too. And Lex, his life is not easy either. All three are rather pathetic. All three are hurting. The proof in the pudding will be who eventually comes out on top. None will be unscathed or a clear winner.

Lex is able to justify everything he does as either being in the best interest of others or as not his fault. He is very good a twisting facts in his favor.

HalJordan4184

11-12-2007, 09:37 AM

Part of the reason Lana chose to do some things, is because of CLark's choices to not tell her things. Things that were becoming a wedge in their relationship. Clark is under obligation for full disclosure, if he wants to have a lasting, honest, healthy relationship with Lana. He wanted to try to fake it instead.

As fatr as full disclosure, it wasn't just with Lana. Whenever Clark wanted to know something, it was simply expected people would tell him it, regardless of any reasoning that existed for him to know or not. If anyone had a secret from Clark, they were being dishonest, and a horrible friend, meanwhile, he'd continue denying he had any secrets at all, which was a flat out lie.

Note, I never implied Clark was solely at fault, or taht he MADE Lana do things. Just that Clark's decisions, for good or bad, did have an effect on Lana's future decisions.

Just because all three of them are hurting, does not mean any one of them is not a part of the reason the other two are hurting. Rather the opposite, all the pain and misery that was part of Clana, and Clex, is because of the choices of all three characters. Choices which impacted the further decisions of the other two characters.

Vergon6

11-12-2007, 10:01 AM

Originally posted by margroks
N, no, no. Lana is responsible for her actions; niether Lex nor Clark made her do any of these things. Lana has been self-centered, duplicitous, manipulative and unfaithful all along. She killed Jaason's mother and asked the Luithors to cover it up. No one made her what she is; she did it with her selfish obsessions and lying, cheating nature. No matter what Lex did, she is the one who decideed to do right or wrong and Lana always chooses wrong. Ther eis no excuse for Lana ans she should have been tried for the murder of Genivieve Teague long ago. Thenmaybe we'd have been spared both instances of nasty Clana sex.
I don't recall any specific scene where it was shown that Lana asked Lex to cover up Genevieve Teague's murder. I think Lex did it and wrote on the paper 'you owe me' in attempt to get Lana to be both indebted to him, and try in his own twisted way to endear her to him (if that makes any sense). Everything he has done since saving the Talon was to eventually get with Lana. Secretly lusting after her since she was still not 'legal'. It's kind of creepy when you think about it.

Plus, Lana did not kill Genevieve Teague, Isobel did. It's not like when you get drunk, and you are responsible for your actions. She was literally possessed at the time, had no control, and had no memory of it afterwards.

Lana's issues with men and relationships clearly stem from the loss of her parents at a very early age. She is trying to replace her parents with Clark, Lex, etc. She probably has Dependent Personality Disorder.

Meanwhile, Lex is capable of love, but he is essentially a psychopath, so his love is very immature. A psychopath possesses emotions, but they tend to be very child-like or primitive, weighing heavily on negative emotions like anger. He may be incapable of feeling some of the higher level emotions, or understand why people would react badly to what he does (eg. trying to make Lana understand that he did all those horrible things for 'her'). And even though he doesn't completely understand some emotions, he becomes fluent in how people react to certain situations, and use that emotionally and psychologically manipulate them. He also clearly lacks empathy (eg. without blinking he ordered some more men to meet certain death at the hands of Wes Keenan because he wanted to see his prototype do his thing again).

Dor el

11-12-2007, 10:50 AM

Originally posted by HalJordan4184
Part of the reason Lana chose to do some things, is because of CLark's choices to not tell her things. Things that were becoming a wedge in their relationship. Clark is under obligation for full disclosure, if he wants to have a lasting, honest, healthy relationship with Lana. He wanted to try to fake it instead.

So, poor Lana made bad choices because of Clark?? I don't agree. Regardless of what Clark did or did not do, it was Lana who made her choices. As she said, she has to live with them.

As fatr as full disclosure, it wasn't just with Lana. Whenever Clark wanted to know something, it was simply expected people would tell him it, regardless of any reasoning that existed for him to know or not. If anyone had a secret from Clark, they were being dishonest, and a horrible friend, meanwhile, he'd continue denying he had any secrets at all, which was a flat out lie.

Refresh my memory, when did Clark deny he had secrets? Yes, he did lie when he made up all those lame excuses for his behavior, but they were so lame that a rational person should have seen through them and called him on the carpet for his deceptions. But, rather everyone just accepted Clark as being "Clarklike" instead of holding his feet to the iron. In Phoenix (I think.), Clark warned Lana that there were things about him that she would not understand. Even though she said she would, he knew that she had never had to deal with a secret as vast as his. It's understandable that he balked. Clark did expect others to tell him things so he could help them. Not because he was nosy or felt they had no right to their privacy.[/b]

Note, I never implied Clark was solely at fault, or taht he MADE Lana do things. Just that Clark's decisions, for good or bad, did have an effect on Lana's future decisions.

Again, I hold Lana responsible for her own decisions. It's too easy, simple, and clean to blame someone else. Maybe the first time she felt Clark hurt her or let her down, Clark could take some of the blame for hurting her, but not for the decisions she made. After the first time the Clark/Lana relationship fell apart, it was Lana who decided, with eyes wide open, to get into a relationship with him again. And she went into that relationship repeatedly even though she knew he had secrets.[/b]

Just because all three of them are hurting, does not mean any one of them is not a part of the reason the other two are hurting. Rather the opposite, all the pain and misery that was part of Clana, and Clex, is because of the choices of all three characters. Choices which impacted the further decisions of the other two characters.

You got me here. But, even though each is hurting, they still are responsible for their individual decisions. Everyone reacts differently to stress, crisis, pain, etc., but these do not absolve anyone from the consequences of their decisions. Is "he hurt my feelings" a good defense for criminal behavior? I think not.

HalJordan4184

11-12-2007, 11:12 AM

No on eperson is entirely one hundredpercent isolated in decision making. Your decisions aren't made solely by you. How other people act, and what they do, and how that affects you, influences the decisions you make. It's not like no matter what CLark does, or Lex does, Lana would make the same decision every time, regardless of circumstances. Everything that has happened between Clark and Lana, and Lex and Clark, and Lana and Lex, has effected how these people make decisions regarding things that deal with all of them.

I'm not saying Clark made Lana do anything, however, her perception of him, and how he's behaved in the past with her, have affected how she makes decisions regarding what she tells Clark, how she deals with things, and all of that.

It's not even a deniable point. It's a psychological fact. Outside factors influence us. While we are responsible for the choices we make, whcih is a point we both agree on, outside factors always effect WHY we make those choices. Lana did what she did, and that's all on her if bad things come about because of it. However, under different circumstances, and if a relationship here, or even a conversation there had gone different, she may not have made those same decisions. Clark and Lex helped steer Lana down the path she is on now, but they didn't just shove her down it, and make her not culpable for her own actions.

Dannyblue1

11-12-2007, 11:33 AM

Here's my take on Clark and Lana.

First, I don't think anyone is obligated to tell anyone else all of their secrets, even if they are in a relationship. I knew a very happy, healthy couple where there were some things the husband could not tell his wife for very good reasons. But he acknowledged that there were things he couldn't tell her, and she was the kind of person who could accept that.

Clark didn't admit he even had secrets to Lana for the longest time. And when you know something is true about someone, and they insist there isn't, it makes you feel like they must think you're some kind of idiot or something. At least when they acknowledged they have secrets, you can choose for yourself whether you can live with that or not.

On the other hand, I don't think Lana is the type of person who can just be okay with someone keeping secrets from her. She tried that in season 5, but it didn't work for long.

Now, here's how they were both wrong.

Clark knew Lana was the type of person who needed complete honesty in a relationship. But her pursued a romantic relationship with her anyway, even when he knew he wasn't going to tell her the truth.

Lana knew she couldn't be happy in a relationship with Clark unless he told her his secret. But she pursued a romantic relationship with him anyway, knowing his continued secrecy would drive her nuts.

So, they are both at fault, one for pursuing a relationship with someone who couldn't give her what she wanted, the other for pursuing a relationship with someone knowing he couldn't give her what she needed.

Dor el

11-12-2007, 12:21 PM

Originally posted by HalJordan4184
No on eperson is entirely one hundredpercent isolated in decision making. Your decisions aren't made solely by you. How other people act, and what they do, and how that affects you, influences the decisions you make. It's not like no matter what CLark does, or Lex does, Lana would make the same decision every time, regardless of circumstances. Everything that has happened between Clark and Lana, and Lex and Clark, and Lana and Lex, has effected how these people make decisions regarding things that deal with all of them.

I'm not saying Clark made Lana do anything, however, her perception of him, and how he's behaved in the past with her, have affected how she makes decisions regarding what she tells Clark, how she deals with things, and all of that.

It's not even a deniable point. It's a psychological fact. Outside factors influence us. While we are responsible for the choices we make, whcih is a point we both agree on, outside factors always effect WHY we make those choices. Lana did what she did, and that's all on her if bad things come about because of it. However, under different circumstances, and if a relationship here, or even a conversation there had gone different, she may not have made those same decisions. Clark and Lex helped steer Lana down the path she is on now, but they didn't just shove her down it, and make her not culpable for her own actions.

Using this logic, Clark's decisions were as much affected by Lana as were hers by him. The bad decisions he made were due to the way Lana treated him. His decisions were not his fault. I simply do not see it this way. Clark is responsible for Clark. Lex is responsible for Lex. Lana is responsible for Lana. The fact that Lionel treated Lex terribly, doesn't make what Lex excusable. It may explain the WHY of his decisions, but it doesn't change the fact of what decisions he makes. We can't say for sure what we would do under different circumstances except that the set of decisions we must make would be totally different. A different set of variables would undoubtedly yield different results. Lana would not have had the exact same decisions to make, if she was in a different situation. She did make the decisions she made. Knowing the WHY doesn't change this fact.

I agree that everyone is impacted by everyone we meet and everything we experience. However, when we make ill advised decisions, we alone must bear responsibility for those. The WHY we make decisions doesn't change the fact of the decisions we make are our choices. Sounds like an excuse for Lana to avoid facing up to her situation. I do feel sorry for Lana as I do for Clark and for Lex. But, the situations they find themselves in result from choices they've made. Regardless of the WHY.

All about Clark

11-12-2007, 12:30 PM

Originally posted by HalJordan4184
I'm not saying Clark made Lana do anything, however, her perception of him, and how he's behaved in the past with her, have affected how she makes decisions regarding what she tells Clark, how she deals with things, and all of that.

Lana has created her own issues with Clark. At first she tells him, she loves him and doesn't care if he has secrets and wants to be with him any way she can and then months later that is no longer good enough. She wants his secrets. She let those secrets mean more to her than having the man she loved. She further went on to secretly work with Lex behind Clark's back knowing how Clark no longer liked Lex meanwhile the whole time telling Clark she wanted his secrets for their future. So no, when Lana can flip flop like this and allows the things she wants to get in the way of her happiness with Clark I have to blame Lana 100%.

Also, Lana allowed Lex to get his hooks into her by sharing the secret of the ship and calling her his partner. They formed this secret bond while she was with the man she claimed to love.

Dor el

11-12-2007, 01:12 PM

Originally posted by Dannyblue1
So, they are both at fault, one for pursuing a relationship with someone who couldn't give her what she wanted, the other for pursuing a relationship with someone knowing he couldn't give her what she needed.

I like this better than blaming Clark for Lana's problems. Clearly, both let the other down. Both had trust issues. Both had acceptance issues.

Originally posted by All about Clark
Lana has created her own issues with Clark. At first she tells him, she loves him and doesn't care if he has secrets and wants to be with him any way she can and then months later that is no longer good enough. She wants his secrets. She let those secrets mean more to her than having the man she loved. She further went on to secretly work with Lex behind Clark's back knowing how Clark no longer liked Lex meanwhile the whole time telling Clark she wanted his secrets for their future. So no, when Lana can flip flop like this and allows the things she wants to get in the way of her happiness with Clark I have to blame Lana 100%.

Also, Lana allowed Lex to get his hooks into her by sharing the secret of the ship and calling her his partner. They formed this secret bond while she was with the man she claimed to love.

Agreed. Lana wants Clark, but she only wants him on her terms. How is this love?

HalJordan4184

11-12-2007, 01:14 PM

Originally posted by Dor el
Using this logic, Clark's decisions were as much affected by Lana as were hers by him. The bad decisions he made were due to the way Lana treated him. His decisions were not his fault. I simply do not see it this way. Clark is responsible for Clark. Lex is responsible for Lex. Lana is responsible for Lana. The fact that Lionel treated Lex terribly, doesn't make what Lex excusable. It may explain the WHY of his decisions, but it doesn't change the fact of what decisions he makes. We can't say for sure what we would do under different circumstances except that the set of decisions we must make would be totally different. A different set of variables would undoubtedly yield different results. Lana would not have had the exact same decisions to make, if she was in a different situation. She did make the decisions she made. Knowing the WHY doesn't change this fact.

I agree that everyone is impacted by everyone we meet and everything we experience. However, when we make ill advised decisions, we alone must bear responsibility for those. The WHY we make decisions doesn't change the fact of the decisions we make are our choices. Sounds like an excuse for Lana to avoid facing up to her situation. I do feel sorry for Lana as I do for Clark and for Lex. But, the situations they find themselves in result from choices they've made. Regardless of the WHY.

Where did I ever excuse Lana for her decisions? Find it, I dare you. I didn't. You keep trying to infer that, after a specific part of my post, says that Lana is responsible for the decisions she makes, and the actions she does.

Why we make decisions, is almost as important as the decisions we make. Why we choose something, tells our mindset, what we're feeling and thinking, what we want to accomplish and all of that. The why, is the reason we take action to begin with. Lana is responsible for doing everything she has done, however, Lex and Clark have both played parts in the overall scheme of things that got her there. Why Lana chooses to do things, is just as important, as her actual decision to do them. It's the difference between being crazy, and rational, and emotional, and collected.

Clark's poor decisions impacted Lana's poor decisions, which were impacted by and impacted Lex's poor decisions. However, all made their own decisions. Nowhere is Lana excused, or Clark, or anyone. All have made bad decisions, and all are responsible for them. However, each person, has impacted the others, and plays a role in what the others have become over the years. That's life, and how it works. However, to reiterate this again, all bear the ultimate responsibility for the right and wrong they choose to do.

Dor el

11-12-2007, 01:42 PM

So sorry if I read between the lines you wrote and misunderstood your intent. The WHY may be important in explaining how the decisions came about, but it, as I said, doesn't change the decisions that were made. I could eat 3 dozen dounts because I am depressed about my dog dying. Regardless of why I did it, I chose to eat those donuts and eat my way right out of my jeans. Certainly isn't the dog's fault. Just as Lana's decisions aren't Clark's fault. It's clear we will not agree on this point. Truce?

All about Clark

11-12-2007, 02:09 PM

Originally posted by HalJordan4184
Clark's poor decisions impacted Lana's poor decisions, which were impacted by and impacted Lex's poor decisions. However, all made their own decisions.

As this may be true, most of Clark's bad decisions regarding Lana was due to Lana's bad decisions to begin with.

The only decision Clark made regarding Lana that had nothing to with Lana's decision that I can remember is that Pete had difficulties with the secret and planned to move away and that caused Clark to not tell Lana his secret at the end of S3.

Originally posted by Dor el
Agreed. Lana wants Clark, but she only wants him on her terms. How is this love?

Yes, I've said this before, Lana doesn't love very deeply.

Dor el

11-12-2007, 02:54 PM

Originally posted by HalJordan4184
Where did I ever excuse Lana for her decisions? Find it, I dare you. I didn't. You keep trying to infer that, after a specific part of my post, says that Lana is responsible for the decisions she makes, and the actions she does.

You did say "Part of the reason Lana chose to do some things, is because of CLark's choices" and to me that implies that Clark is somewhat to blame for Lana's choices. This has nothing to do with excusing what Lana did. I suspect that neither of us would say that Lana's behavior is OK because X and Y happened to her. I just contend that Lana's choices are Lana's responsibility and Lana's alone.

You also said,"Clark did contribute to screwing Lana up. He is part of what made Lana how she is. Sure, Lex furthered the damage. However, had it not been for Clark, and their initial relationship failures, there probably never would have been a Lex." I may be wrong, but this sounds to me like everything is Clark's fault. I don't think it is. It stands to reason that if everything is Clark's fault, then nothing is Lana's fault. I think her choices are her fault. And the WHY doesn't really change anything. I do agree that if there had never been a Clark/Lana, then Lex/Lana probably would not have happened.

Mello Penelo

11-12-2007, 02:57 PM

Originally posted by All about Clark
Yes, I've said this before, Lana doesn't love very deeply.

Only herself.