Zor-El = FOS Jor-El

[xrayvision]

Another throwback to a theory I posted a few weeks ago (besides Zor-El being in love with Lara) was how Zor-El told Lara that they could rule Earth together. Also like my theory states, Zor-El seemed to love Kal-El like his own son and was willing to raise him. This episode almost has me convinced that the Jor-El in the FOS & in Clark's ship and the caves all this time was Zor-El.

Also, notice how Zor-El was madly into Kara achieving her destiny and how FOS/cave/Clark's ship Jor-El is the same. And also notice how Clark was writing off how he has to follow in the footsteps of what his parents, i.e. FOS Jor-El, want from him.

For anyone interested, here is the post that I made that seems to be very accurate so far:

http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=79480

[aqgalaxy]

Actual I bought the same Idea.. I am starting to think maybe The "Good Jor-EL" inhabited the fortress after the Zod incident like "Kara" was really Jor-El

[Sub Snake]

Nah I dont think so. Remmeber Jor El was first in Clarks ship. Anyway and that whole "Wanting to raise Kara kinda like Clark" thing...runs int he El family lol.

[Kryppy]

Maybe. Interesting speculation. It is true that something Zor-el said tonight “we can lead this race with strength” is the same things Clark said when he read message from Jor-el (or at least messages that Clark thought were from Jor-el).

[xrayvision]

That is exactly what I thought. It mirrored the message from the ship in Rosetta.

[redeem147]

It's an interesting theory. I don't think it will turn out to be true, but it is interesting. I think it's more an El family/Krytonian thing.

I do wonder why Kryptonian men speak with British accents, but the women do not.

[TECHWON]

Originally posted by xrayvision
Another throwback to a theory I posted a few weeks ago (besides Zor-El being in love with Lara) was how Zor-El told Lara that they could rule Earth together. Also like my theory states, Zor-El seemed to love Kal-El like his own son and was willing to raise him. This episode almost has me convinced that the Jor-El in the FOS & in Clark's ship and the caves all this time was Zor-El.

Also, notice how Zor-El was madly into Kara achieving her destiny and how FOS/cave/Clark's ship Jor-El is the same. And also notice how Clark was writing off how he has to follow in the footsteps of what his parents, i.e. FOS Jor-El, want from him.

For anyone interested, here is the post that I made that seems to be very accurate so far:

http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=79480

INTERESTING THEORY

[elway]

We've all been lead to believe that the \8/ was the symbol for Jor El from the ship to the caves to even having it burned into Clark's chest . To try to controll him....Yet Raya's crystal was the \S/ given to her from Jor El.

In this ep. Zor El had the \8/ crest on, which come to think was on the computer Lex/Zod was using last season. I still think these to symbols hold a clue

[Kal-ed]

Its the El crest so it should be the same for both BROTHERS.

And why would Zor el warn Clark about Kara, it just doesnt make sense, at all.

[xrayvision]

Originally posted by Kal-ed
Its the El crest so it should be the same for both BROTHERS.

And why would Zor el warn Clark about Kara, it just doesnt make sense, at all.

Because if he doesn't want his true agenda to be revealed, he would rather not have Clark and Kara working together to uncover the secrets, especially Kara who has memories of her actual father.

[Kal-ed]

still doesnt make sense, he knows Kara loves him so if anything Kara could unknowingly help him make things easier.

[ClarksGal]

Well, I'm not saying it's impossible, but I just don't get why Jor El would warn Clark to watch out for Kara if he were really Zor El. You'd think he'd tell Clark that his training was to help Kara find the crystal and bring it to the FOS immediately!

[xrayvision]

Obviously Kara loves him. I'm saying he would use that love & trust to get her to do his hidden motives. But Kara wouldn't know that the Jor-El in the FOS would actually be Zor-El. I haven't heard her talk about Jor-El really. I think Zor-El made her distrust Jor-El with all the talk between them on Krypton. So until Kara would be given proof that Jor-El was good, she would have no reason to go to the FOS, where she knows (as of Cure), that Jor-El exists. But what she wouldn't know is that the Jor-El in the FOS is actually Zor-El. Zor-El telling Clark not to trust her would likely keep her away from the FOS so that she won't find out that it's really him.

I have another theory that Zor-El is in league with Brainiac or Zod. Perhaps he converted Brainiac from a savior of Krypton (since Jor-El built Brainiac for that purpose) to an enemy of Jor-El's so he would join Zod's side. Maybe my 2 theories combined can explain it.


Originally posted by ClarksGal
Well, I'm not saying it's impossible, but I just don't get why Jor El would warn Clark to watch out for Kara if he were really Zor El. You'd think he'd tell Clark that his training was to help Kara find the crystal and bring it to the FOS immediately!

Because my theory says that the blue crystal contains the true Jor-El.

We know from this episode that Kara faded out while she was flying (when she almost crashed into the plane). That could have been more than just nothing. It could have been a side effect of a memory that was implanted into her mind. What if that opening scene didn't happen like that? What if Jor-El really gave her that crystal and then modified her memory to make her think it was Zor-El? Jor-El knew after all those years of problems within the House of El that she wouldn't trust him, but if he replaced himself with Zor-El in her memory, then she would listen to him and get that crystal to Earth. What I'm basically saying is that Jor-El after giving Kara the blue crystal on Krypton did to her exactly what Kevin Grady's father did to him in Blank before he sent her to Earth.

The guy who played Zor-El did sound somewhat like Terrence Stamp. And like I said, the things he told Lara on Earth reminded me very much of Jor-El in the FOS.

I also wonder if the crystal Zor-El used to erase Kara's mind was the same one Jor-El gave Raya. Perhaps it had more abilities that Clark didn't know about.

[xrayvision]

Does anyone remember if the crystal Zor-El used to erase Kara's memories on Earth had the 8 symbol or the S symbol? It's possible that Jor-El uses the S symbol while Zor-El uses the 8 symbol.

[darkkrypton81]

It appears the House of El is a bigger dysfunctional family than the Simpsons and the Griffins put together.

[xrayvision]

If my theory is correct, then my next question would be whose emissary is Lionel? Would that make him the real Jor-El's emissary or Zor-El's emissary?

[Jlvsclrk]

Oh, I love threads like this!

I've thought for years that someone, perhaps a family member or a secret supporter of Zod or a virus outgrowth of Brainiac, had tampered with the ship to change its programming from Jor-El's original intent. What better way to get revenge on Jor-El than to turn his beloved son into the opposite of what Jor-El would have wanted. Based on assumption that Jor-El is himself a hero who wants Clark to help humans, compared to the ship->cave->FOS "rule them with strength" attitude and decidely f***-ed up "tests". Fair bit of indirect evidence for this in SV, such as good (if somewhat amoral) Jor-El from Relic and Raya of course.

So this episode made me very happy, as I sense it did for you.

And yes, what about Lionel? Well, I could never believe Lionel as the emissary of Jor-El: his methods were quite simply too unacceptable to that. And last episode showed us that the MB is ultimately just as deadly as ever. But the way I see it, Lionel THINKS he's working on Clark's behalf, and so is able to fool MM.

And Elway, interesting point about the \8/ vs the \S/. Maybe only the senior member of the family gets to use the \S/ - sort of a power symbol - and as younger brother, Zor-El got stuck with the \8/.

[Titan27]

I agree with


previously said by: aqgalaxy
I am starting to think maybe The "Good Jor-EL" inhabited the fortress after the Zod incident like "Kara" was really Jor-El

I noticed all the similarities between the old Jor-El and Zor-El. All the strict fulfilling destinies. Remember in Season 2 when "Jor-El burnt the family crest into Clark's chest; and everybody was upset because it looked like a 8. Then after Clark met Raya she gave him the House of El relic that had the old Superman symbol. I originally thought that since Kara said the brothers never got along that maybe the "8" was the original symbol of the House of El, then since Jor-El was sent to Earth by his father for disappointing him; maybe Jor-El severed his ties to his dad's side of the family; including his brother especially after the "assassination." I think the Jor-El that was in possession of the ship was Zor-El who tampered with Kal-El's ship before he was sent to Earth. However I think the Jor-El that inhabited the caves and the fortress was the real Jor-El. I don't think he would have killed Johnathan but was saying he would to get Clark to cave into his demands. Like Zor-El said about his brother: "He's cold," I am positive that Jor-El wouldn't hurt his son or the people he picked to raise his son. However Jor-El would come really close to becoming evil/cold to doing the right thing.

[BobMalooga]

Originally posted by Jlvsclrk
Oh, I love threads like this!
And Elway, interesting point about the \8/ vs the \S/. Maybe only the senior member of the family gets to use the \S/ - sort of a power symbol - and as younger brother, Zor-El got stuck with the \8/.

My thought on the whole \8/ vs the \S/ thing is this...It isn't until Clark truely accepts his origins and quits running from them that we see the \S/. I always wondered if we weren't just seeing it translated through the POV of Clark? and if it is the symbol that we see in Lara than that theory makes sense as we're seeing it from Kara's POV and she is still very Kryptonian...

Just a thought.
Keith

[ginnyfan]

Nah... cool theory but... uh uh.

[Cychotec]

Originally posted by xrayvision
Does anyone remember if the crystal Zor-El used to erase Kara's memories on Earth had the 8 symbol or the S symbol? It's possible that Jor-El uses the S symbol while Zor-El uses the 8 symbol.

It was an S on the crystal he used on Kara

[ScottM1956]

Originally posted by xrayvision
Does anyone remember if the crystal Zor-El used to erase Kara's memories on Earth had the 8 symbol or the S symbol? It's possible that Jor-El uses the S symbol while Zor-El uses the 8 symbol.

Zor-El had the S crystal

[xrayvision]

If Zor-El had the S crystal, then maybe I'm right in my assumption that it was not Zor-El in that opening scene but instead Jor-El. Perhaps Zor-El swiped Jor-El's "S" crystal and used it against Kara (on Earth on the Kent farm). Jor-El probably found out and then used it on Krypton later on to replace himself with Zor-El in Kara's memory. So he manipulated Kara's mind using the crystal into thinking she was sent to Earth by Zor-El when in fact it was Jor-El. This is very similar to what Kevin Grady's father did to him in Blank (planted false memories in his head to make him think he killed his own brother when his father did it). After everything Zor-El told Kara about Jor-El with the troubles of the House of El, she wouldn't trust Jor-El unless he made her think it was Zor-El who was sending her to Earth.

My question though is what about what Raya told Clark? She said pain is a part of life. Was this a miscalculation on her part because she never experienced the FOS Jor-El, or would she justify these things had she experienced FOS Jor-El's actions herself?

The big clue is Covenant. Why would the cave Jor-El send a bogus Kara after Clark? That really does not seem like what the true Jor-El would do.

As far as the S symbol vs. 8 symbol, I don't think Jor-El had any beef with his father. I think the troubles started after Jor-El's father died and the 2 fought over Lara. But it was more than just that. I think if forced to live on Earth, Zor-El either was against humans or wanted to rule them while Jor-El wanted to survive and leave the humans alone. I think that explains the S symbol as Jor-El changing the Kryptonian 8 symbol to one that is more human-friendly because he liked humans whereas Zor-El wanted to rule them and thought of Kryptonians as a superior life form and stuck with the 8 symbol.

Another thing is that the current FOS Jor-El may be the will of the real Jor-El. I'm not sure if the current FOS Jor-El is Zor-El. I would say that the Jor-El who left the message in Clark's ship, the one who branded him with the 8 symbol, the one who brainwashed Lindsay into thinking she was Kara to get Clark, the one who brainwashed Kal-El to retrieve the stones at any cost (by attacking Lex's plane and almost killing everyone), and maybe the one who gave Clark the dagger to kill Lex/Zod was Zor-El. We haven't seen enough of Jor-El lately to know for sure. I thought he did act strangely in Kara. But his intentions may be pure.

One possibility is that the breaking of the dagger by Zod removed Zor-El's control of the FOS. When he spoke to Martha in Zod, it seemed like the will of the real Jor-El. I don't think Zor-El would have used the last of the FOS' energy to help a human.

This is where I'm not sure what's going on. Either Zor-El is still in the FOS and told Clark not to trust Kara because he knows the 2 of them could work together and find out what he's up to, or the FOS is finally controlled by Jor-El thanks to the dagger being shattered (or perhaps due to the S crystal being used to revive it) and Zor-El plans to return by having tricked Kara into placing the blue crystal in the FOS where it will have the power to either clone Zor-El and Zod or bring Zor-El out of the Survival Zone.

I have 2 theories on this. For the one that I linked to in the first message of the thread to work, Zor-El had to have tampered with Clark's ship before Jor-El sent him to Earth which caused the programming of the caves & FOS to be controlled by Zor-El. My other one says that Zor-El was in league with Zod and has never controlled the FOS but plans on it by having Kara place it in the FOS. But the problem with that is it doesn't explain the questionable tactics used by Jor-El in earlier seasons. That theory can't explain Zor-El being the contoller of the FOS, because then it wouldn't make sense why Brainiac in season 5 wanted to destroy the FOS. Unless Zor-El first sided with Zod and either saw the error of his ways when it was too late or had the same ideology as Zod except for he was not for the destruction of Krypton. If there was a fallout between Zod & Zor-El, then it would make sense why Brainiac tried to destroy the FOS in season 5.

[Theshadow129x]

Originally posted by xrayvision
Does anyone remember if the crystal Zor-El used to erase Kara's memories on Earth had the 8 symbol or the S symbol? It's possible that Jor-El uses the S symbol while Zor-El uses the 8 symbol.

I did catch that actually xray. I was thinking the same thing for a lil bit but thought against it.

[xrayvision]

I finally found the other thread about my theory that has Zod, Brainiac & Zor-El being in league:

http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=79398

I just thought about it now...if parts of that theory are true, then maybe it was Zor-El who re-programmed Brainiac to serve Zod.

[Coyote]

This theory makes a lot of sense, xrayvision. I've had the same thought, especially now that we've met Zor-El and know that he's as crazy as a monkey on meth, just like that lunatic fake Jor-El in the FOS.

Clark's real daddy is of course Lionel. He nailed Lara back when she was visiting Earth in the 80s.

[ShelbyKent]

I think the Jor-el in the FOS is the real Jor-el. Zor-el described Jor-el as being "cold", which is exactly how FOS Jor-el is. Zor-el is the passionate/hotheaded one, while we've always been talking about in this board that Zor-el is such a cold/unfeeling father, who doesn't seem to understand Clark's emotions/feelings.

FOS Jor-el keeps telling Clark that he musn't be too tied to his human feelings. I think what FOS Jor-el is trying to tel Clark is that he shouldn't allow himself to be ruled over by his emotions and passions, because it will turn him into a nutjob like Zor-el. Perhaps Jor-el would want Clark to be analytical; think first before acting; use reason rather than pure emotions wern making decisions....

Unfortunately I think the BDA is taking after Zor-el when it comes to letting his emotions overrule his reasoning. :(

[xrayvision]

I actually hope you're right ShelbyKent. I want the FOS Jor-El to be the will of the real Jor-El and not Zor-El.

But the thing that really gets me is Covenant. Why would Jor-El brainwash Lindsay as Kara? It would make sense if Zor-El did that. Maybe this is one of those things that will never be explained.

Another thing I thought about is what if that memory in the opening scene is not real and was implanted into Kara's mind by Jor-El (much like Kevin Grady's memories were by his father in Blank regarding the death of his brother)? Then perhaps Kara remembered it as having talked to Zor-El, whereas she was really talking to Jor-El, who was using her mistrust in him because her allegiances were with Zor-El and not him. I think it's possible that if that was an implanted memory, then it could have had a side effect which turned out to be Kara blacking out in mid flight and remembering that scene (just like Lex was doing in Memoria while being treated by Dr. Garner). It would make sense that Jor-El did this after having found out that the ship he built for Clark was tampered with by Zor-El after having sent Clark off already. As I said, if anything, it would be the ship's heart that was tampered with, because only when it was plugged in, did the "rule them with strength" message appear--a message that was pretty much verbatim when compared to what Zor-El told Lara. So if Zor-El switched Jor-El's ship's heart with one he created himself, then it makes sense why that message appeared in the ship and why Jor-El would modify Kara's memory to make it appear as if it were Zor-El who sent her off to Earth.

[ShelbyKent]

Originally posted by xrayvision
l.But the thing that really gets me is Covenant. Why would Jor-El brainwash Lindsay as Kara? It would make sense if Zor-El did that. Maybe this is one of those things that will never be explained. Could be one of those legendary AlMiles brain farts. I swear those guys are inconsistent as hell. These are the same people who said that when they write themselves into a corner during a season finale, they don't exactly know how they're going to write themselves out of it during the premiere!



As I said, if anything, it would be the ship's heart that was tampered with, because only when it was plugged in, did the "rule them with strength" message appear--a message that was pretty much verbatim when compared to what Zor-El told Lara.

Maybe "Rule them with Strength" is a common and harmless enough credo known to all Kryptonians. But people like Zor-el and Zod would twist it's original benevolent meaning and use it as justification for conquering other worlds and other cruelties.

[xrayvision]

I seriously wish we got to hear more of Jor-El by now. I wanted so bad for there to be an episode where Clark and Jor-El talk in the FOS prior about all things Kryptonian (their family, history of Krypton, Brainiac, Zod, Krypton's destruction). But they're instead giving it to us piece by piece. In a way, it makes it more interesting and provides them with material, but I really would like to hear more of the way the real Jor-El was. Too bad Raya was killed off so soon.

I wonder if Clark will ever ask Kara if she knew Raya. Maybe they didn't get along since Raya sided with Jor-El and Zor-El told her not to trust her.

[ShelbyKent]

Originally posted by xrayvision
I seriously wish we got to hear more of Jor-El by now. I wanted so bad for there to be an episode where Clark and Jor-El talk in the FOS prior about all things Kryptonian (their family, history of Krypton, Brainiac, Zod, Krypton's destruction). I doubt they'll do that because Clark can't be too smart on this show :(

You think SV can get Terrence Stamp on the show?


I wonder if Clark will ever ask Kara if she knew Raya. Maybe they didn't get along since Raya sided with Jor-El and Zor-El told her not to trust her. Perhaps we'll also hear the story about how Raya was in love with Jor-el for years and was involved in a triangle with Lara :( :(

[SpiritedDiva]

Oh No! Another triangle. :lol:

[GuardianAngel]

Xrayvision's theory is interesting. Maybe this season TPTB will finally explain the mess about the message in Clark's ship (and the one dr Walden got after the information overload from the cave wall when he tried to kill Clark at the end of season 2), the S and 8 symbol, and what Jor-el was really like.

Xrayvision's theory explains a lot of apparent inconsistencies which have been bugging us since season 2. I hope it turns out to be true.

There's just one thig I cannot understand. In one of the flashbacks Lara says:

"Kara, Krypton may never see the end of this war. Jor-el's BrainInteractive Construct may very well save us, but I won't risk my son's life on that chance"

Why should Brainiac have saved Krypton? Wasn't Brainiac serving Zod? Did Jor-el create it? Or was this memory tampered with?...:confused: :confused: :confused:

[xrayvision]

Originally posted by GuardianAngel
Xrayvision's theory is interesting. Maybe this season TPTB will finally explain the mess about the message in Clark's ship (and the one dr Walden got after the information overload from the cave wall when he tried to kill Clark at the end of season 2), the S and 8 symbol, and what Jor-el was really like.

Xrayvision's theory explains a lot of apparent inconsistencies which have been bugging us since season 2. I hope it turns out to be true.

There's just one thig I cannot understand. In one of the flashbacks Lara says:

"Kara, Krypton may never see the end of this war. Jor-el's BrainInteractive Construct may very well save us, but I won't risk my son's life on that chance"

Why should Brainiac have saved Krypton? Wasn't Brainiac serving Zod? Did Jor-el create it? Or was this memory tampered with?...:confused: :confused: :confused:

Yes, Jor-El created Brainiac. Someone obviously re-programmed it/him. That may have been Zor-El, or maybe Zod or one of his own scientists. He certainly had the scientific know-how to do it. Perhaps that's why the power source of Brainiac had the exact same pattern as the altar in the cave.

In my fanfic episode Krypton, Brainiac was created by Jor-El to transport the octagonal power source (seen in Zod) to Krypton's core. I wrote it that Krypton's core was becoming unstable due to the kryptonite giving off radiation and losing energy to hold the planet together in the process, something that Jor-El's grandfather discovered and passed down the generations of the House of El. I revealed that the power source that was used for Brainiac was originally the power source for the Eradicator, and that the Eradicator was dismantled generations ago so the power source could be used to save Krypton. The Eradicator in my fanfic consists of the power source, a piece hidden on Earth, and a piece hidden on Krypton. Jor-El designed Brainiac to deliver the power source (which according to Raya in Fallout had more energy than anything else) and stay in Krypton's core monitoring it, establishing a connection to Krypton's core & transferring the power from the power source to it, and reporting data to Krypton's scientists to keep track of the core. This is because there is kryptonite at the core and no Kryptonian could surivive staying down there.

So in Krypton, Jor-El presented his Brainiac project to Krypton's Council, and they together assembled a team to work on it. Zod, who hadn't shown his true colors yet, was involved with it and put his minions Aethyr, who was said to be a computer whiz, and Nam-Ek, who was said to have excelled in material repli-morphication (the name I came up for Brainiac's ability to shape shift and replicate) on the team. Likewise, Jor-El had Raya on the team. Jor-El created Brainiac's main computer coding and had to leave for Earth in the middle of the project to finish working on the caves because the House of El had a backup plan in case Krypton could not be saved. While Jor-El was on Earth, he received a distress message from Raya who told him that Zod has taken over Brainiac, how he arranged for Raya's dishonorable discharge from the project, and started using it to crush his dissidents and hold the planet hostage until his demands are met (because he knew the planet was doomed without Brainiac to deliver the power to its core). Therefore, Jor-El knew he had to do something, so he looked at his ship's computer and saw where Nim-El, the first (his ancestor) hid the piece of the Eradicator on Earth. He supersped to the Arctic and took it. He then went back to Krypton in his ship and by the time he arrived Zod was in control and his fleets were fighting against the Kryptonian resistance. Jor-El barely surivived the fleets' attacks, but went to the location where the 2nd piece of the Eradicator was buried (on Krypton). He assembled the 2 pieces and connected it to his ship's power source. He used it to destroy the rest of Zod's fleet and break into the military lab hidden inside one of the Jewel Mountains. Before Zod was taken down, he sent Aethyr & Nam-Ek in Brainiac (the black ship) away because he thought he can get out of his predicament if he withheld Brainiac from Jor-El. Jor-El knew that there was too little time and used the Eradicator to encase Brainiac with Aethyr & Nam-Ek inside in an asteroid and formed it around them. He then dismantled the Eradicator, and hid one of its pieces into the Phantom Zone before transporting all of Zod's war criminals into the Zone. He built Clark's ship using the other piece of the Eradicator as a component and then the Council destroyed Zod's body and sent him to the PZ.

That is how I explained everything. It is actually a huge episode (the longest I've ever written). I'm sure it's long enough to be a 2-parter or a 2-hour movie. I also explained who Virgil Swann really was (I made him be the Kal-El of Krypton-2).

[Superboy2]

Interesting story.

[MrZeppo]

It wouldn't make sense if it were Zor-El. If the FOS A.I was Zor-EL all along then why would the Zor-El in Kara's Blue Crystal have to trick Clark into losing his powers in "Blue" to take the FOS over? Why would the A.I warn Clark about Kara in "Bizarro"?

No, the FOS A.I is definitely Jor-El, but it will never be the real Jor-El. It's just a program, it's prime directive right now is to teach Clark by any means necessary, not molly-coddle him.

[vikingjedi]

Here's what Im thinking (simple as possible):

Real Jor-El is good

Real Zor-El is evil

FOS Jor-El is evil

Brainiac was created by Jor-El to help Krypton


Easiest theory is that the FOS was corrupted by Zor-El. He reprogrammed Brainiac to impersonate Jor-El because he was jealous that Kal-El was the son of Lara/Jor-El. He wanted Kal-El to become evil

Brainiac (fake Jor-El) gave Clark false information about Kara so that it would cause him not to trust her. He wanted them to be enemies

Anybody else noticing a pattern of clones?

- Zor-El wanted to clone Lara
- Brainiac cloned himself


Maybe the Brainiac we saw was a clone and Clark hasn't really fought him yet

I'm thinking Zor-El's crystal is evil and Lara's DNA is just a small part of whats in it. It will be interesting to see how Brainiac reacts when Clark brings it to the FOS (as planned??)

As for the \S/ and \8/ symbols, all signs point to the 8 being evil and the S being good. Maybe Jor-El and Zor-El have seperate fathers and Zor-El was borrowing Jor-El's crystal in the dream

[xrayvision]

The main problem I see in what you have vikingjedi is that if FOS Jor-El (aka cave Jor-El, aka Clark's Ship Jor-El) is evil because he is Brainiac, how does that explain the Jor-El of seasons 2-4? Are you saying Brainiac infected Clark's ship on Krypton?

I think if the Jor-El programming we have seen all along is really Zor-El programming, then it must have been a result of the heart of Clark's ship. That message in Rosetta only appeared when the heart was inserted into the ship.

In a recent post where I expanded upon my theory, I pointed out another very interesting possibility. Here is the post:

http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=3430846#post3430846


The interesting part is this:

[b]It is possible that if Zor-El is controlling it, he doesn't want anyone including his own daughter interfering with his plans for Clark. It's also possible that the real Zor-El found out that Jor-El sent Kara to Earth just before Krypton exploded and remotely gave the will in Clark's ship's heart to stop Kara at all costs. This means the will in the ship's heart was told to do anything to make sure Clark stays away from her. And it even means that because Kara's ship was just behind Clark's as it was approaching Earth, Zor-El's will messed up the programming of her ship and caused her to remain in suspended animation for 18 years!! Is it really a coincidence that this happened? If my theory is true, then it explains why Kara's ship crashed where it did and did not release her---something we have yet to get an answer to.[b]

Read the post if you don't understand the above paragraph by itself. I don't think Kara being in suspended animation for 18 years is a coincidence. If Zor-El did want to raise Clark as his own without anyone's interference and if his programming did control Clark's ship (thanks to the ship's heart), he could have easily sent out a signal to Kara's ship, which was behind Clark's ship, to keep her in suspended animation indefinitely and made it land (or crash) into the dam where it wouldn't be found. I doubt Kara not being found until the bursting of the dam, which was by chance, was a coincidence. I think Zor-El (or if not him, someone) intended it to be that way. This is an unanswered question so far and my reasoning may be a possible answer as to why her ship didn't open.

I don't think the 8 symbol was evil. It was probably the original crest of the House of El. My guess is that Jor-El used the S to distinguish himself from Zor-El who continued to use the 8. Remember that the 8 symbol was also on the air stone and in the caves, and the Kryptonians who designed those items centuries before Jor-El and Zor-El existed were most likely not evil.

[GuardianAngel]

I think you're making it too complicated. I agree that Zor-el tampered with Clark's ship and with the cave, too. This could also explain why Zor-el was wearing human clothes when he bursted into the Kent's house in "Lara". Before getting there he may have been to the caves to reprogram them with stricter directives (as seen until "Arrival") which should inspire a "true kryptionian's way of life". I doubt Zor-el manages to get his hands on any of the crystals which created the FOS, especially the one which transferred its kryptonian knowledge (and Jor-el's real personality) to Lionel. When the crystals were united in the cave (at the end of Commencement) the kryptonian knowledge which had been in the cave together with Zor-el's orders and personality were transferred to the crystals which then became one and teleported Clark to the Artic.
If you really think about it, has the Jor-el in the caves ever been fatherly as we've seen since "Zod"? The Jor-el who spoke to Martha in that episode seemed much different... So maybe the FOS has a double programming: Jor-el's main one and Zor-el's which corrupted some of Jor-el's programming.

As far as Brainiac is concerned, maybe Jor-el did create it but it was reprogrammed by Zod. I really don't understand it and Lara's words made me more confused.

I still can't understand the mess with the S and the 8, especially because we saw the "S" on Raya's crystal, Zor-el's crystal and the console which controlled the exit from the Phantom Zone (in Zod"). I wish TPTB would finally address this issue... It's been bothering me since season 2!

[vikingjedi]

What if Zor-El is Zod?? Zod is Jor-El's brother??

Both start with Zo, that would be crazy

[GuardianAngel]

^It would... but it is very unlikely.

[xrayvision]

Originally posted by GuardianAngel
I think you're making it too complicated. I agree that Zor-el tampered with Clark's ship and with the cave, too. This could also explain why Zor-el was wearing human clothes when he bursted into the Kent's house in "Lara". Before getting there he may have been to the caves to reprogram them with stricter directives (as seen until "Arrival") which should inspire a "true kryptionian's way of life".

I don't think the cave had any directives until Clark's ship was destroyed. I seriously think that his ship explosion is what caused the essence in his ship to be transferred to the cave. The biggest piece of evidence that suggests this is how in Rosetta when he put the key into the cave wall, the only thing that happened is Clark getting downloaded with the language. There was no voice in the cave. If the cave was pre-programmed so that it would not need the ship's essence to be transferred to it, then logic says the voice would have been heard as Clark was downloaded with the language, saying "Welcome my son, you are now ready to begin the quest to fulfill your destiny". In season 2 before Clark's ship exploded, the caves seemed to be vacant as far as a guiding force like Jor-El or Zor-El. There was no voice when Dr. Walden put the key either, nor was there a voice in Calling when Walden returned. This tells me that the ship had to be destroyed for the essence to get to the cave wall.

I doubt Zor-el manages to get his hands on any of the crystals which created the FOS, especially the one which transferred its kryptonian knowledge (and Jor-el's real personality) to Lionel.

He obviously didn't because if he did, he would have created the FOS by himself. All the stones were still sealed in the original relics they were buried inside.

When the crystals were united in the cave (at the end of Commencement) the kryptonian knowledge which had been in the cave together with Zor-el's orders and personality were transferred to the crystals which then became one and teleported Clark to the Artic.

I said the same thing. The only difference in what I said is that Zor-El's orders in the cave came from his ship, so it was a 2-step process (from ship to cave thanks to the events of Exodus, and from cave to the unified crystal that created the FOS thanks to the events in Commencement). But we agree that the essence went from the cave into the stones as they unified. Notice how the caves are now silent again.

If you really think about it, has the Jor-el in the caves ever been fatherly as we've seen since "Zod"? The Jor-el who spoke to Martha in that episode seemed much different... So maybe the FOS has a double programming: Jor-el's main one and Zor-el's which corrupted some of Jor-el's programming.

I definitely agree that Jor-El as of Zod seemed much different than in all previous episodes. The thing is, I don't understand where Jor-El's programming would come from if Zor-El's programming was in Clark's ship and later transferred to the caves. If it has always been Zor-El's programming, then Jor-El's programming would have to yet make an appearance. The only thing I can attribute to Jor-El's programming entering the FOS is the S crystal that Clark got from Raya. But the problem is that Jor-El in Zod was already different than before. If the FOS was revived with the crystal 5 episodes after Zod, then where did Jor-El's programming seen in Zod when he talked to Martha come from? He never programmed the stones because they were untouched by humans or Kryptonians for centuries until season 4 when they were uncovered. It makes no sense that Jor-El would all of a sudden appear after there was no object possible of containing his programming until Fallout.

The only possible explanation I can give is that Zor-El instead of replacing the heart Jor-El built for Clark's ship, added code on top of the Jor-El code and that this Zor-El code was destroyed as a result of the dagger being plunged into Brainiac, leaving only the underlying Jor-El code in the FOS. If it's not this, then maybe Jor-El's medallion from Relic that was placed in the cave wall (until Clark unearthed it) programmed the cave with some of his memories, but thanks to Clark's ship's explosion, it was overpowered with Zor-El's programming.

As far as Brainiac is concerned, maybe Jor-el did create it but it was reprogrammed by Zod. I really don't understand it and Lara's words made me more confused.

Or maybe Zor-El reprogrammed it and he was in league with Zod.

I still can't understand the mess with the S and the 8, especially because we saw the "S" on Raya's crystal, Zor-el's crystal and the console which controlled the exit from the Phantom Zone (in Zod"). I wish TPTB would finally address this issue... It's been bothering me since season 2!

Raya's crystal was really Jor-El's. He gave it to her. And I wouldn't be surprised if Zor-El stole it from Jor-El while on Earth. There are a lot of questions about this. My best guess is that Jor-El updated the crest because he wanted a distinction between himself and Zor-El. The 8 symbol is not evil. It was on the Air stone, it was seen on the cave walls, on Lex's manuscript, and many other items. Zor-El may have continued to use it, but just because he did, doesn't make it evil. It was the original crest of the House of El. The S crest is obviously not a Kryptonian character and based on Earth's letter S. Another reason Jor-El used it was because he had to know of the Naman legend and knew that Naman would be someone in his bloodline. And since he knew that one of his family would one day live on Earth and protect it, he translated the 8 symbol to the S symbol for Naman's adaptation. I have no doubt that Jor-El came up with that symbol and not an older House of El member because it did not appear until items that Jor-El created appeared, such as the Phantom Zone exit console, the S crystal, etc. Notice that the medallion that Jor-El (not Zor-El) wore in Relic had the 8 symbol. Because it was given to him by his father. Perhaps when Jor-El left it in the cave, he decided it was time to update the symbol.

[simaozinho200]

great explanations

[xrayvision]

Thanks. I'm guessing by your username that you're a fan of Portuguese soccer. I had tickets to Euro 2004, but I couldn't go to it thanks to some stuff I had to do. I'm still pissed about that. I wanted to see the Estadio Dragao.

[GuardianAngel]

^ Your explanation is really convincing. It would clarify a lot of apparent inconsistencies, especially Jor-el's change since "Zod". Have you had a look at the pictures from "Blue"? The dagger which was destroyed in "Zod" seems to be in that episode, too. It may be connected to the FOS's programming... We may get some answers in that episode.

[Blue screen of death]

Though, thinking back to the comment Zor-el made "we can lead these people with strength" doesn't necessarily mean force, violence,repression and other tyrannical means. There are also many positive descriptions for strength. He could have meant following a code similar to bushido. Leading with strength of character and deeds.

Read the idea for the lionel/zor-el/jor-el fos thing. I think there is some good stuff there. Though you failed to mention transference when lional became clark. An obvious father becomes the son reference if any of that theory is true. Also depending on which stone did the transference lionel would have been in contact with 2 out of the 3 stones. So lionel could have had all of the necessary info downloaded into his head by handling those 2 stones. One guess would be the transference prepared his body,by giving him kryptonian abilities he knew what clark/kryptonians are capable of. Also lionels liver disease was cured and he seemed to become more "buff" physically as the story progressed. The second stone gave lionel the knowledge necessary to actually help out and be jor-els eyes and ears so to speak and ultimately get clark on the right path.

[xrayvision]

Originally posted by Blue screen of death
Read the idea for the lionel/zor-el/jor-el fos thing. I think there is some good stuff there. Though you failed to mention transference when lional became clark. An obvious father becomes the son reference if any of that theory is true. Also depending on which stone did the transference lionel would have been in contact with 2 out of the 3 stones. So lionel could have had all of the necessary info downloaded into his head by handling those 2 stones. One guess would be the transference prepared his body,by giving him kryptonian abilities he knew what clark/kryptonians are capable of. Also lionels liver disease was cured and he seemed to become more "buff" physically as the story progressed. The second stone gave lionel the knowledge necessary to actually help out and be jor-els eyes and ears so to speak and ultimately get clark on the right path.

I'm confused here. I don't know what the transference that happened between Clark & Lionel has to do with Zor-El controlling the ship, caves, and FOS. Are you saying that Lionel's soul & Jor-El's AI have switched (when he got "possessed" in Commencement) and Lionel is now controlling the FOS (i.e. Lionel's soul was sucked into the unified crystal when the 3 stones were placed in the altar)? That wouldn't make sense. We know Lionel is Lionel and has all his memories intact.

[Blue screen of death]

you know the worst part is i really have this great theory,however, i seem unable to transcribe it into a language the rest of the world can understand coherently. Basically the idea is that the events of transference (body swap) helped lionel become the oracle/emmisary as well as the contact with the water stone later on when he started writing in kryptonian right around/before the events of mortal. i am saying it was a 2 step process instead of just the effect of the water stone in the finale or epi right before it. Remember the liver disease plot and lionel was dying and after the "transference" lionel was healed. So if any part of your jor-el zor-el FoS controll is correct part of the process for lionel to become the jor-el "personna" eventhough he had all of his normal memmories and such, would have occured through inadvertant use of the 2 stones
i hope that clears it up some, though i think i made it a bigger mess.

[xrayvision]

Actually, it's starting to. When the water stone was placed into the altar and because the altar was connected to the rest of the cave, Jor-El or Zor-El...whoever occupied the cave...sent information to Lionel, perhaps because the same stone caused the transference earlier on and maybe Jor-El/Zor-El remembered Lionel (since he touched it for the 2nd time) and sensed that he was changed from his kill Clark mentality to one who would be suitable as an oracle/emissary and gave him the knowledge. In season 5 he may not have been able to read Kryptonian, but after the events of Zod he definitely could.

[TampaVille]

Originally posted by elway
We've all been lead to believe that the \8/ was the symbol for Jor El from the ship to the caves to even having it burned into Clark's chest . To try to controll him....Yet Raya's crystal was the \S/ given to her from Jor El.

In this ep. Zor El had the \8/ crest on, which come to think was on the computer Lex/Zod was using last season. I still think these to symbols hold a clue

The \8/ symbol is what they used in early seasons because it looked like a Kryptonian symbol as well as being reminiscent of the Superman shield. Later they introduced the \S/ symbol because they were tired of using the \8/ and wanted the real Superman symbol, but couldn't think of any way to reasonably make the change. So they just changed it. That's about it.