Why is Clark ticked at Jor El?

[galatians221]

I couldn't understand why Clark was so hostile in his discussion with Jor El. All he has heard about from MM and Raya is what a great man Jor El is and how he saved Clark's life and is still doing so through channeling Lionel and the continued help from MM. He finally gets to speak to him again after the Fortress has been dead and Jor El hasn't been speaking and he's screaming at him as if he can't hear and talking to him like my 17 year old talks to me. Why can't he respect him for saving his mother's life and Lois when Brainiac crashed their plane and for all the other things Jor El has done. He seems to hate him and while he may blame him for Jonathan's death it was really Clark's fault for moaning over Lana. He's now ready for his training and to fulfill his destiny and he's barking at his old man like he's a rented mule. What gives?

[Crispin Glover]

I agree.

[darkkrypton81]

I hear you. He was just pissed that he was never told about Zor-El's side of the family.

[warriorrenegade]

I don't believe he was being hostle. He was just setting Jor-EL straight. Clark standing his ground with who he is and how he isn't changing for anyone, not even Jor-EL.

As for him not telling Clark about Zor-EL, why would he need to. Jor-EL never knew of Zor-EL sending Kara to earth. Also Clark never knew he had an uncle to ask about.

[paolinki25]

I agree. I really dislike the way they're writing the Jor-El/Clark relationship. I have yet to watch scene where Clark is not acting like a jerk with his old man.

[TampaVille]

Hmm... I'd like to point out an alternative interpretation. I think what is being interpreted as Clark being argumentative was really just him speaking loudly. It's how they have everybody speak to Jor-el in the FoS. You'd think Kryptonian microphones could just be more powerful... :)

I actually really like Clark's characterization and interactions this season. He's being written as more of an adult. I think the Clark/Jor-el interactions could be improved, but they're better than they ever have been before. Especially with Clark FINALLY accepting his training!!! :)

[DarkChilde]

How many times has Jor-El had alternative motives to what he wants Clark to do? Or even been truely truthful with Clark? I am not sure Clark feels he can truely trust Jor-El, as it seems that bad things always happens when he talks with him.

[xrayvision]

Clark seems to trust Kara more than Jor-El. He better have learned his lesson since Jor-El has been right every time.

[moviefan2k4]

For a long time in the series, Jor-El seemed to be genuinely evil (case in point: the electro-choking of Jonathan in "Covenant"). But now, it seems as if Clark's getting wise to the ways of his "old man". He's beginning to understand, even anticipate, Jor-El's motives. As his knowledge and confidence grows, so does his approach when dealing with his "father".

[All about Clark]

Clark just wants his training, not Jor-el's bullsh!t. And Jor-el again reprimanded him on his feelings. It's got to wear on Clark.

I was surprised that TPTB chose to have Clark still upset with Jor-el, but it was understandable.

I suspect by the end of the season, Clark will calm down while speaking with him.

[SmallvilleMan]

Because everyone besides MM keeps calling Clark out on his feelings..........Jor-el as well as anyone should know how much Clark's feelings for humans make him who we'll become.

[PKII]

First time he had been back in the FOS since he recharged it and he has a fight with Jor El :rolleyes:

[Son of Kal-El20]

I'm glad Clark is taking a stand for himself. He's not some little zombie that can be controlled. The last time he listened to a father it made him lose his best friend. I'm so happy he is thinking on his own because frankly all fathers on this show are messed up( Johnathan, Lionel, Jor-El, and now Zor-El).

The fathers on this show have no wisdom. They let their personal vendettas get the better of their judgement.

[ClarksNextGF]

Originally posted by galatians221
I couldn't understand why Clark was so hostile in his discussion with Jor El. All he has heard about from MM and Raya is what a great man Jor El is and how he saved Clark's life and is still doing so through channeling Lionel and the continued help from MM. He finally gets to speak to him again after the Fortress has been dead and Jor El hasn't been speaking and he's screaming at him as if he can't hear and talking to him like my 17 year old talks to me. Why can't he respect him for saving his mother's life and Lois when Brainiac crashed their plane and for all the other things Jor El has done. He seems to hate him and while he may blame him for Jonathan's death it was really Clark's fault for moaning over Lana. He's now ready for his training and to fulfill his destiny and he's barking at his old man like he's a rented mule. What gives?

Well, execpt for the Lana comment - I agree. Regardless of the Lana/Jonathon episode - Clark has made several comments in the couple months (in Smallville) about being wrong about Jor-El and Jor-El actually having Clark's best interest at heart. I think at one point, Clark says he wished he had realized that sooner. Now, suddenly - he's all ticked off. why? there's no reason for that.

Clark NEVER would have spoken to Jonathon like that.

Remember when Clark was going to kill Lionel (great scene :) ), then MM says that Lionel was working with Jor-El, so Clark stops. What's changed since then?

Clark even mentions that there have been other imposters from Krypton before - but, he likes Kara better than Jor-El?

The only answer I can think of (which makes the writers look really bad) is a quote from Lois - "your not thinking with your big brain."

[xrayvision]

Originally posted by Son of Kal-El20
The last time he listened to a father it made him lose his best friend.

If you're referring that Jonathan caused his friendship with Lex to end, then I disagree. Clark figured it out himself. Look how pissed he was in Covenant after he found Lex's obsession room. They might have gone on speaking terms again, but they were never the same in season 4.

Then after the events of Mortal, Clark didn't need Jonathan to understand Lex anymore. Lex always betrays his friends and family. Lex himself said that the only reason he became friends with Clark was to get everything Clark had.

[ClarksGal]

Really? I am sooo glad that Clark is finally standing up to Jor El. Jor El may have good intentions, but he has done nothing but try to control, manipulate and punish Clark into submitting to his "destiny" that Jor El has laid out for him. While I have been glad that S6 started to paint Jor El has a hero, his methods on this show have been less than honorable, and I'm glad to see that TPTB aren't just forgetting all about the way that Jor El treated Clark and the Kents from the beginning.

I'm glad to see Clark starting to define himself, both as a human and a Kryptonian, and I am glad that he is standing up to Jor El and training on his own terms. To me, he is starting to be a man.

[kyl-el]

Originally posted by Son of Kal-El20

The fathers on this show have no wisdom. They let their personal vendettas get the better of their judgement.


You're kidding right? You really think that Jonathan had no wisdom for Clark? Clark's parents made him the man he is in this show. And let me emphasize MAN, and not Kryptonian. The wisdom and values that the Kents (especially Jonathan if you ask me) passed down to Clark are what have caused him to care so much and they are what caused him to pick a destiny of protecting humans instead of "ruling them with strength".

[skywalker28]

Jor-El has a right to be a jerk to Clark if he wants....

Clark is always yelling at him in the Fortress.

[Poweranimals]

I can totally understand Clark's attitude towards Jor-El given all he has done to try and control him.

[Superboy2]

I don't blame Clark for how he was talking to Jor-El. Jor-El speaks in riddles and it screws up Clark cause he doesn't know how to interpret them.

[Kriminal]

Originally posted by Poweranimals
I can totally understand Clark's attitude towards Jor-El given all he has done to try and control him.

that answers this thread's question

[BadToad]

I think people forget all the history between Clark and Jor-El. Clark may have come to understand some of the things Jor-El has done, but I don't believe he's ever going to be 100% OK with them, or him. And IMO, he shouldn't be. Jor-El has done some really heinous stuff, and I don't want it forgotten. Instead, I'd like it explained. And I very much want Clark to keep his guard up around Jor-El, and to stand his ground on who he is, and what Jor-El is just going to have to get used to.

And lets not forget, the last time that a Kara showed up at Clark's house, she turned out to be sent by Jor-El, murdered a man, then tried to lure Clark into a cave wall under false pretenses. When Clark got wise, Jor-El zapped her dead, then tried to kill Jonathan Kent, then brainwashed Clark.

Come on, you can't just expect Clark to not remember any of this?

He's trying to work with Jor-El. He's trying to understand. But the past is the past, and I really don't think I want Clark to forget it.

[xrayvision]

^^That is exactly what I want. I don't want them to forget or retcon the past. They can explain it like Jor-El was trying to discipline Clark because he knew the Kents would provide the love & affection and he needed to provide the strength. Maybe he made drastic changes to the program in the final days of Krypton to prevent what happened on Krypton from happening on Earth so that Clark would retrieve the stones and save the planet. Maybe Jor-El's father raised him the same way and he wanted to do the same to Clark because he knew the end result of Jor-El's father raising him in a tough manner was positive and wanted the same for Clark.

But at the end, I want Jor-El to live with Clark being who he is (Superman). I think once he reaches that point, he will stop hassling Clark about how he cares for humans and risks his own life for them to put the world in danger. The best way to do this is to have 2 modules of Jor-El. The first module (strict Jor-El) would take effect until Clark finishes his training then the second module (Jor-El's will turning into the type of person the real life Jor-El was on Krypton) would activate after Clark is trained.

[pizzaguy19]

Originally posted by DarkChilde
How many times has Jor-El had alternative motives to what he wants Clark to do? Or even been truely truthful with Clark? I am not sure Clark feels he can truely trust Jor-El, as it seems that bad things always happens when he talks with him.

Just cause Clark doesn't listen when he talks with Jor-El, and goes straight off to do something different every time (not coming back by sunset, not stabbing Lex, etc).

[BadToad]

Just cause Clark doesn't listen when he talks with Jor-El, and goes straight off to do something different every time (not coming back by sunset, not stabbing Lex, etc).

Clark isn't a robot. His feelings, and his compassion for people are always going to be part of his character. And remain part of his character when he's Superman. And if thats something Jor-El is unable to understand, then I don't want Clark learning anything from him. I would never, ever want to see a Clark that could stab Lex because Jor-El told him to. Superman is not an ends justifies the means type of guy. And neither is Clark Kent, right now. And I don't want him to be.

[Son of Kal-El20]

Originally posted by kyl-el
You're kidding right? You really think that Jonathan had no wisdom for Clark? Clark's parents made him the man he is in this show. And let me emphasize MAN, and not Kryptonian. The wisdom and values that the Kents (especially Jonathan if you ask me) passed down to Clark are what have caused him to care so much and they are what caused him to pick a destiny of protecting humans instead of "ruling them with strength".

Johnathan had a little wisdom. But there were several times when he let his anger towards Lionel Luthor cloud his judgement. He tried to pass down that hatred to Clark and have Clark turn against Lex. It worked. The same thing is happening with Jor El. He's trying to pass down his hatred towards Zor-El to Clark and have Clark turn against Zor-El's daughter.

I'm telling you the fathers on this show are no good and can't be trusted. If Clark is a real man, he'll make his own decisions and not listen to daddy pea brain.

[Mr. Clark Kent27]

Well once he arrived in the Phantom Zone, he met Raya and learnt that not all kryptonians were bad. And Jor-El was struggling to save the planet but it exploded and Clark would never listen to him. After he left the Phantom Zone, the last thing he saw there was Raya sacrifcing herself to help Kal-El, and learnt that Kryptonians had a true heart. Then when Raya came back, he wanted to know how could it be that his father was a great man Raya keeps talking about when he wonders why he made Clark feel painful. I think Clark later realized what Jor-El really was trying to do, and that he should listen to him. So he doesn't hate his father and after Raya died he would feel all this time he could have accepted his destiny. He knows that his father isn't bad. It just a misunderstanding.

[HowardFilms]

I don't blame Clark.

Jor-El can be kind of an ass.

I would have laughed to no end if Jor-El returned by saying "Well, maybe if you had stayed for training, I would have had a chance to tell you about the family." Ah, opportunities lost.

[bobsuncorp]

Originally posted by xrayvision
^^That is exactly what I want. I don't want them to forget or retcon the past. They can explain it like Jor-El was trying to discipline Clark because he knew the Kents would provide the love & affection and he needed to provide the strength. Maybe he made drastic changes to the program in the final days of Krypton to prevent what happened on Krypton from happening on Earth so that Clark would retrieve the stones and save the planet. Maybe Jor-El's father raised him the same way and he wanted to do the same to Clark because he knew the end result of Jor-El's father raising him in a tough manner was positive and wanted the same for Clark.

But at the end, I want Jor-El to live with Clark being who he is (Superman). I think once he reaches that point, he will stop hassling Clark about how he cares for humans and risks his own life for them to put the world in danger. The best way to do this is to have 2 modules of Jor-El. The first module (strict Jor-El) would take effect until Clark finishes his training then the second module (Jor-El's will turning into the type of person the real life Jor-El was on Krypton) would activate after Clark is trained.

Thats kind of how I've always seen Jor-El and it seems that most people forget that he is merely a computer simulation of the man, not the man himself. This is why he seems so cold and ruthless all the time, whereas every time we hear about him from others (Raya for example) it doesn't fit with the FoS version. He only seems to show compassion very occaisionally.

[kyl-el]

Originally posted by Son of Kal-El20
Johnathan had a little wisdom. But there were several times when he let his anger towards Lionel Luthor cloud his judgement. He tried to pass down that hatred to Clark and have Clark turn against Lex. It worked. The same thing is happening with Jor El. He's trying to pass down his hatred towards Zor-El to Clark and have Clark turn against Zor-El's daughter.

I'm telling you the fathers on this show are no good and can't be trusted. If Clark is a real man, he'll make his own decisions and not listen to daddy pea brain.

I can agree with you to a point. Yes, Jonathan had a personal vendetta with the Luthor family, but the hatred towards Lex wasn't just passed down to Clark. How many times did Clark tell his dad to give Lex another chance; a forgiving attitude that he was obviously taught by his parents. Clark was willing to give Lex many chances on his own accord and Lex made the mistakes that pushed them apart.

If you really think that Clark just hated Lex because Jonathan had it in for Lionel, you need to go back and rewatch the first couple seasons of this show.

[freefall]

Originally posted by bobsuncorp
Thats kind of how I've always seen Jor-El and it seems that most people forget that he is merely a computer simulation of the man, not the man himself. This is why he seems so cold and ruthless all the time, whereas every time we hear about him from others (Raya for example) it doesn't fit with the FoS version. He only seems to show compassion very occaisionally.

Well, he was sending off his only child millions of lightyears away and he was still nattering on and on about Clark's destiny. Lara was the only one who voiced her worry about what if no one would love their son.

I would say AI Jor-El isn't that much different from the real man himself. But I believe back in the days of Krypton, Lara was there to balance him out, I'd even say she's a peacemaker of some sort among the members of the House of El if this family is really as dysfunctional as Kara has described.

[Mr.White]

Originally posted by Son of Kal-El20
I'm glad Clark is taking a stand for himself. He's not some little zombie that can be controlled. The last time he listened to a father it made him lose his best friend. I'm so happy he is thinking on his own because frankly all fathers on this show are messed up( Johnathan, Lionel, Jor-El, and now Zor-El).

The fathers on this show have no wisdom. They let their personal vendettas get the better of their judgement.


You got me why TPTB on this show have it that the fathers on this show have to be the villians of the show. Or better, why they are written and portrayed so badly by the show's writers. It is sad that Kal-El ,make that, "Clark" respects the show's plot device ,Chloe, and her wisdom more than he does his own father's.

[xrayvision]

Originally posted by BadToad
Clark isn't a robot. His feelings, and his compassion for people are always going to be part of his character. And remain part of his character when he's Superman. And if thats something Jor-El is unable to understand, then I don't want Clark learning anything from him. I would never, ever want to see a Clark that could stab Lex because Jor-El told him to. Superman is not an ends justifies the means type of guy. And neither is Clark Kent, right now. And I don't want him to be.

I came up with this theory to explain why the Jor-El we've been accustomed to hasn't been very Jor-El-like:

http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=79480

It has holes that may yet be filled, but it explains a lot in the early years. Season 5 is the hard one to explain as well as some stuff with Swann.

[jogannath]

Originally posted by galatians221
I couldn't understand why Clark was so hostile in his discussion with Jor El. All he has heard about from MM and Raya is what a great man Jor El is and how he saved Clark's life and is still doing so through channeling Lionel and the continued help from MM. He finally gets to speak to him again after the Fortress has been dead and Jor El hasn't been speaking and he's screaming at him as if he can't hear and talking to him like my 17 year old talks to me. Why can't he respect him for saving his mother's life and Lois when Brainiac crashed their plane and for all the other things Jor El has done. He seems to hate him and while he may blame him for Jonathan's death it was really Clark's fault for moaning over Lana. He's now ready for his training and to fulfill his destiny and he's barking at his old man like he's a rented mule. What gives?

Do you really think any of those was Clarks fault?! All the mistakes he made could have been avoided if Jor-El took another minute to say why things should or should not be done. All Clark ever gets is " do this or you will suffer" .
Under those conditions I'd blow him off too.

As for MM and the others that "know" Jor-El. Just how well do you "know" the people you work with?

[Crusader]

He must of thought that he was up to something again, with Kara showing up. After all, Jor-El has done things like this in the past that have lead to Clark loosing someone.

[Superboy2]

Exactly. Clark doesn't really trust Jor-El yet.

[Son of Kal-El20]

And why should he?

Jor-El=Season 3 Lionel Luthor