What is canon?

[Die Clana! Die]

What is canon?

I see a lot of people fighting on the debate forums, bringing up canon to illustrate their points and such.

But I ask what is canon? Is it the comics? If so...they have channged over the years...and the iconic characters have changed with them. For example, in the 50s Lois Lane was trying to trap Superman into marriage. In later versions she was a tough as nails no fuss reporter.

Than people bring in movies. Chris Reeves and whatever happened on the movies is also canon. Than we have the animated series and LnC. Clark Kent in the Superman movies was an uber geek, where on LnC he was confidant and could hold his own.

So, we use the above "canon" to make our points in Smallville debates. Will Smallville canon be considered bible canon in the future? In the future, when we get a new Superman show and if there are conspiracy theories like the Chlois debate...will people use Smallville's characters and treat them as bible superman mythology canon?

I don't know. What do you think?

[dru-zod2501]

Originally posted by Die Clana! Die
What is canon?

I see a lot of people fighting on the debate forums, bringing up canon to illustrate their points and such.

But I ask what is canon? Is it the comics? If so...they have channged over the years...and the iconic characters have changed with them. For example, in the 50s Lois Lane was trying to trap Superman into marriage. In later versions she was a tough as nails no fuss reporter.
Your question is so loaded, I'm not sure where to even begin.
I think the very simplest answer would be: Comics over everything else is considered the True Canon. Just because they've changed many things over the years doesn't negate the fact that that's still where the source material comes from. Although as we've seen in the past sometimes one form of media can affect what goes on in the others. I'd rank the different forms in terms of importance and ability to affect others:
1) Comics
2) Movies
3) Tv

There were all the classic examples of the old radio show and cartoon elements that were instrumental in shaping what would become comics canon, but Supes was a very young character back then; the same thing couldn't to him again


Originally posted by Die Clana! Die

Than people bring in movies. Chris Reeves and whatever happened on the movies is also canon. Than we have the animated series and LnC. Clark Kent in the Superman movies was an uber geek, where on LnC he was confidant and could hold his own.
The movies are their own continuity which is considered canon only as long as a reboot isn't used. That's why SR is sticky, it's not clear exactly how close it's intended to fit. And have you ever seen things introduced in L&C or S:TAS appearing anywhere else?? no cause it's not seen as havin that same power of influence.

Originally posted by Die Clana! Die

So, we use the above "canon" to make our points in Smallville debates. Will Smallville canon be considered bible canon in the future? In the future, when we get a new Superman show and if there are conspiracy theories like the Chlois debate...will people use Smallville's characters and treat them as bible superman mythology canon?

I don't know. What do you think?

Smallville canon or Movie canon will never ever supercede comics canon unless they deliberately bring some of it into the books and declare it as the real truth

[axisoftime]

Its too dificult to say overall-I think it would have to be stated more specifically.Take for instance the 'rebuilda' vision power in Soperman 3-that is not cannon lol.But different versions have differnet things.When I read Superman comics he could time travel-or fly to distant galaxies easily-though in say the 50s tv show-he couldnt time travel.And in Lois and Clark he needed some kind of breathing apperatus to fly in space.

[bobowayney]

well it all depends but in the comics Smallville was on the East Coast but not nearby to Metropolis, it was the very first Superman movie that established Smallville in Kansas, so I am gonna have to say comics movies AND TV are all "canon"

[Die Clana! Die]

Wow, I'm really surprised people voted mostly for "Smallville" being the primery Superman canon.

I personally, take it all as canon because they do crossreference and influence each other. For example, when Lois and Clark wed on LnC, DC decided to have them take the plunge into merrital bliss, too.

That is not to say they haven't been married in comics before.

I guess, for me personally...I disregard everything that is out-dated. Primarily stuff like "Lois Lane; Superman's girlfirend" and other media that does not reflect our social values anymore.

When it comes to different versions of characters, I guess I go with the version I personally see more like the iconic character. For example, Lex Luthor. I like Smallville's Lex, the troubled playboy billionare with a thirst for knowledge that borders on the fanatical. I like him better than the comical criminal mastermid from the Superman movie. Second in line is LnC's Lex Luthor who in the public eye is a "Golden Boy" selfmade billionare who is involved with cutting edge research and gives back to the comunity, but who is a ruthless criminal behind closed doors. I like LnC's Lex also for his larger than life ego, that brings him over the edge into insanity.

I guess, I will never accept Jonathan's death as canon. Or Martha's involvement with the Luthors.

But pretty much, in my head, I can accept almost all things on Smallville as canon.

[SteveS]

The video medium (TV and movies) will be the dominant authority source for the vast majority of a viewing audience of any Superman program.

[ClarksGal]

I think for me canon is the stuff that seems to be the most concurrently used in most of the media...the things that are nearly the same no matter which era/medium you go by. Like Lex being bad, Clark/Superman being good, Lois being a little in-between :), Clark being from Krypton...you know, the big stuff.

But I also think that you are right about some things being outdated and obsolete. Should Clark be a bumbling idiot at the planet, or does the smart, successful Clark make more sense today? I think there are a lot of things about SV that I like better than some of the comics...I agree with DCD above that Lex's personality during his slow descent into evil has been really cool to watch. His character seems much more complex than I remember reading in the comic books. So since that's my favorite incarnation of Lex, I will consider SV Lex "MY Canon." :)

I think the bottom line is that everyone has different influences on their opinions of what Superman stands for. What's cool about that, is that he still seems to stand for the same thing to everyone: truth, justice, hope, peace, etc.

[cksidekick]

i think everyone is right on track with a good answer for this question....Canon is all the "common ground" ALL fans know and love....its not the little details that matter....its those points that make him Superman....its the common threads that run through from the verry first stories right on up to the present....

ive made the argument a million times, that CANON is a myth...it doesnt realy exist....what does exist are the constants in all versions...and each fan has his/her own favorite....as long as story tellers stay true to WHO he is, they need not worry about playing around with little details....its his honor and self sacrafice, for his adopted planet, that makes us love the character....:)

[Firebunny]

Originally posted by Die Clana! Die
Wow, I'm really surprised people voted mostly for "Smallville" being the primery Superman canon. I guess I misunderstood the question. I voted for Smallville becauses I thought we were talking about Smallville. Meaning, when we debate things like Chlois or if Lana is Clark's true love we have to draw from what's been presented on the show. The show may draw inspiration from other sources, but it's its own continuity. Somethings should remain constant, Clark is Superman, Lex is the villian, Clark and Lois (whoever she may be) work at the DP, Kryptonite weakens Clark, but other things can change.

Part of what's fun about watching Smallville is that we don't know what little things they'll change. We know the ending, but we don't know how they'll get there.

Comics, movies, and television shows of the future may use some of the things Smallville established, but they'll be their own continuity and will create their own cannon.

[MidgardDragon]

Umm, depends on the continuity? In currect comics continuity only certain of the previous comics are canon. In Smallville continuity only Smallville itself is canon. In Lois and Clark only Lois and Clark was canon. In the Superman movies, as of Returns, only bits and pieces of Superman 1 and 2 are canon and in continuity with Superman Returns.

There is no one true canon. It just depends on which continuity you prefer.

I prefer Lois and Clark, Smallville, and Superman Returns (not in that order, though). The comics I generally couldn't care less about, although I did enjoy the Death/Reign of the Supermen arc way back when.

I'm also going to assume that the George Reeves and Superboy series where in continuities unto themselves as well, but I won't comment on them as I know little about them.

And before someone points it out, I am aware that the comics were influenced by Lois and Clark getting married on LnC (or was it vice versa?) and sometimes DC moves things to match up with certain popular continuities, but that doesn't make, for example, the comics' canon a part of Lois and Clark.

I agree with the original poster, the question is loaded. You're attempting to make us choose one, true, right way. The question and poll would be better served by rephrasing the question as, "Which continuity do you prefer?"

[dsv100]

In the initial post, Die Clana Die stated the context in which he created this thread --
I see a lot of people fighting on the debate forums, bringing up canon to illustrate their points and such. -- and I don't see this question as a "What do you prefer?" poll, but as a "Canon? Whatchoo talkin' about, canon?" point of clarification.

And you're correct of course, MidgardDragon, as each version of Superman fiction is its own canon.

I wish I could find these "debate forums" (are they here, on Kryptonsite? Elsewhere?) to understand the original question. But from what I gather, people reference "canon" in them to illustrate why some things are good and others bad. For instance (and again, I'm speculating, having not read said forums), someone might say Lois meeting Clark early like in Smallville S4 doesn't fit canon, and someone might say that's wrong, and they don't like it.

So? Why can't someone say that? It's an honest opinion. Just because the canons are separate from one another doesn't mean someone can't say, I like A better than B. And someone can further say I like A better than B, and look, A is supported by other comics canon, and movie canon, and other Superman TV canon, while B is something new and I don't like it as much.

So that's my take. The canons are separate. That's been obvious for years. No one single canon is gospel and must be followed word-for-word. But other canons can be legitimately referred to when you want an example of what you like better, in the context of criticizing what's new and different.

[MidgardDragon]

Originally posted by dsv100
So? Why can't someone say that? It's an honest opinion. Just because the canons are separate from one another doesn't mean someone can't say, I like A better than B. And someone can further say I like A better than B, and look, A is supported by other comics canon, and movie canon, and other Superman TV canon, while B is something new and I don't like it as much.

I don't see a problem when people say, "I don't like A because I prefer the B canon." It's when people say, "LOIS LANE CAN'T BE IN SMALLVILLE BECAUSE SHE'S NEVER BEEN THERE BEFORE!" As if the canon of previous comics, shows, etc. is the law. The people who believe that there is one true canon and that Smallville should adhere only to it, those are a problem for the entire community, not to mention the writers (as if there are enough of those with that kind of backlash a good idea could get pulled before it sees the light of day).

I also dislike the "it makes no sense to have x do y because in the future y knows x" comments. This is also assuming there is one canon that is correct, and that Smallville cannot create it's own tale.

[RedBullet]

They are ther own continuity. The thing people still don't get is Smallville is it's own continuity, it's continuity's future isn't the Superman movie, or anything else. All we know is that Clark will become Superman, he will have a secret identity and work at the Daily Planet.

What I didn't like about Superman Returns is that it had this weird ass continuity with the older movies and for me it was pretty much a remake with less action.....

I would say that Smallville is mostly inspired by the movies because Al/Miles don't read comic books.

The writers can do anything they want, if they want to bring Lois Lane they can do it. Aren't people bored of seeing the same thing. People can say they don't like them bringing Lois ( like me) but it is wrong to say that they can't do that because we know in the comics that she wasn't in Smallville.

[Joelito]

Smallville isn't canon...because is an interpretation of the DC world...so..


DC comics, and only DC comics

[MidgardDragon]

Originally posted by Joelito
Smallville isn't canon...because is an interpretation of the DC world...so..

Smallville isn't a part of the DC Comics canon would be a more appropriate and reasonable response. Smallville is a part of it's own canon, and has nothing to do with the DCU, but there is no one true interpretation, just a personal preference.

[Welling_is_pretty]

My personal opinion is that DC Comics are the true canon. Yes, things have changed between the Ages but I would take the current Superman (though goodness knows that changes so quickly nowadays!) as the 'source' of canon.

All the media are just interpretations of the then current comics canon. I see them all as just that, interpretations and/or AUs.

For a long, long time I have considered Smallville an AU for Superman canon because so many things differ so radically from the comics version. (Pete being black, Pete being the first to find out Clark's secret, Chloe...being there at all--LOL, etc.)

The comics are the source from which everything flows. That, to my mind, is canon.

[MidgardDragon]

But that's assuming that the current version is somehow right and everything else is changing what's "right" to create an AU. The comics were Superman's birth, but now cartoons, movies, and television shows have been made that didn't follow the present (as in of that time period) canon at all nor were they pulled from it and morphed into an AU. The basic concepts of Superman seem to remain the same, in that he eventually puts on a suit with the \S/, falls in love with Lois, and works at the DP. But these are mostly just an ingrained part of the character, and not taken directly from comics and morphed to fit an AU.

[HalJordan4184]

Did they make up Lois? Did they make up the Daily Planet?

While, yes, it is true some things like the Daily Planet name, and all of that came from things like the radio show, the basics were there. He still worked for a newspaper when he debuted, it was the Daily Star. He still loved Lois. ETC ETC. However, any divergent story, has a basis in the comics. The ingrained parts of the character, didn't come from the Chris Reeve movies, or Smallville, or somewhere else. Their roots are in the comics, and they were morphed in some way, to work as a new story, or in a new medium.

[MidgardDragon]

Oh Lord. I'm not even getting into this if we're gonna have a "since everything came from the comics they're what matters most" type discussion. I know Superman comic fans like to think that their medium is best because it came first, but really, c'mon.

[cksidekick]

Originally posted by MidgardDragon
Oh Lord. I'm not even getting into this if we're gonna have a "since everything came from the comics they're what matters most" type discussion. I know Superman comic fans like to think that their medium is best because it came first, but really, c'mon.

i gotta' say, i am no "canon junkie' by any means, but the comics are the SOUL of any Superhero....one who doesnt read the comics but loves the Clark Kent /Superman character, can ONLY EVER partialy know him...same for any other comic character....of course the comics "matter most".....but, i digress, because you are right...the OP asked about canon...;)

[Joelito]

Originally posted by cksidekick
i gotta' say, i am no "canon junkie' by any means, but the comics are the SOUL of any Superhero....one who doesnt read the comics but loves the Clark Kent /Superman character, can ONLY EVER partialy know him...same for any other comic character....but, i digress, because you are right...the OP asked about canon...;)
Agree..Smallville can't be part of the canon because..where did come from all those characters...weird...from an industry call Canon.
Mostly poeple here hate "canon" or want Smallville be primary canon so they theories come to live.
I still believe that SV is a little part of the canon, because if SV was a little canon..AlMiles wouldn't have so many restrictions to develop this "new" superman mytho.

[HalJordan4184]

Originally posted by MidgardDragon
The comics were Superman's birth, but now cartoons, movies, and television shows have been made that didn't follow the present (as in of that time period) canon at all nor were they pulled from it and morphed into an AU. The basic concepts of Superman seem to remain the same, in that he eventually puts on a suit with the \S/, falls in love with Lois, and works at the DP. But these are mostly just an ingrained part of the character, and not taken directly from comics and morphed to fit an AU.

I didn't turn this into a comics are right, and nothing else is. I addressed this point, which you made. This entire point, is, quite frankly, factually wrong. Those ingrained parts of the character, or concepts, and everything else, were pulled from or added to parts of a story or general idea that came from the comics.

This doesn't make comics right, and the only source of canon. Personally, they are the primary source of canon, however, as has been pointed out here, each seperate story will have it's own "canon" in and of itself. That's how stories change, and grow. Sometimes for the good, sometimes for the bad.

However, simply denying, for whatever reason, that Superman isn't first and foremost a comic book character, makes no sense. That's where all those core ideas, and ingrained parts of the character came from, or where the basis that became those came from. If the movies, or shows, or whatever made their own character based off of nothing, you'd have a point. They didn't. They took a comic book character, added their own stuff in, and made an AU.

[Jaded Wolf]

I can agree that it can depend on what continuity you prefer and therefore no one can get on here and say one particular media outlet is canon. However, I stick with the comic books primarily because every outlet; i.e., movies, TV shows, whatever, always has the credit "based on the Superman character created by Shuster and Siegel". Seeing as how they made Superman as a comic book and everything is based or influenced by the comic, in my opinion the comics are canon.

Again, as I said above, it depends on you and no one can honestly say one outlet is canon indefinetely.


Originally posted by HalJordan4184
I didn't turn this into a comics are right, and nothing else is. I addressed this point, which you made. This entire point, is, quite frankly, factually wrong. Those ingrained parts of the character, or concepts, and everything else, were pulled from or added to parts of a story or general idea that came from the comics.

This doesn't make comics right, and the only source of canon. Personally, they are the primary source of canon, however, as has been pointed out here, each seperate story will have it's own "canon" in and of itself. That's how stories change, and grow. Sometimes for the good, sometimes for the bad.

However, simply denying, for whatever reason, that Superman isn't first and foremost a comic book character, makes no sense. That's where all those core ideas, and ingrained parts of the character came from, or where the basis that became those came from. If the movies, or shows, or whatever made their own character based off of nothing, you'd have a point. They didn't. They took a comic book character, added their own stuff in, and made an AU.

Good point. Which is why again I think the comics are canon. They are the source from which the movies, cartoons, and series' are based off of. No doubt the comics will sometimes use what the other media outlets have used. For instance, George lucas used the name Coruscant after Timothy Zahn had penned it in his Thrawn Trilogy novels for Star Wars. DC Comics now is integrating Chloe into the comic continuity. However, without the comic books, Smallville would not have been and therefore no Chloefor that matter.


Originally posted by MidgardDragon
Smallville isn't a part of the DC Comics canon would be a more appropriate and reasonable response. Smallville is a part of it's own canon, and has nothing to do with the DCU, but there is no one true interpretation, just a personal preference.

I'll agree with you for once on this. Smallville is DC but not in the current DCU comics. Maybe it could be an alternative universe if so believed. The only problem I have with Smallville going too far away is that pretty soon the writers are going to write themselves into a situation where they will be pulling "rabbits out of hats" to explain certain things. For instance, if Lois in Smallville knows Clark at an early age then Clark's identity in the future will be pointless around Lois. While the Superman in Smallville continuity is flying around, Lois will easily be able to identify the glassless Clark as Clark. The same with Perry White, Lex Luthor (though more easily forgiveable for certain reasons), and countless others whom the writers have introduced early in Clark's life. I don't mind a complete re-interpretation. I just think the writers are backing themselves up against the wall which ruins a good series like Smallville.

[MetroGirl06]

Superman media (Smallville, TAS, movies) are known as DCAU. They are other peoples interpretations of the COMICS. Therefore, IMO, true canon is found only in the comic books. :)

[xrayvision]

I say DC Comics (Golden, Silver & Modern Age) are canon. Everything else (movies, cartoons, etc) is just an unofficial interpretation by people who don't own the character.

[Kal26]

I'm with Jaded Wolf and midgard in that each form of superman media can have it's own continuity. Also a big nod to Hal for a very good explanation. I was hoping you'd chime in and add to the conversation when I saw this thread. IMO without the comics the characters wouldn't exist, and therefore wouldn't be able to be manipulated by tv, movies, etc. That's why like Hal, and Jaded Wolf I feel the comics are canon, and look to them for the "real" IMO story of superman. I look at tv, and film like this, does it fit with the continuity of the comics? If no, then I don't consider it canon, but follow it, and other stuff that may be in it's continuity as sort of it's own canon. Just me. Others may be the opposite, but I don't think you can deny that nothing would be possible without the comics. Especially since dc has it's hands in everything superman, regardless of whether it's comics, movies, tv shows, or games.

On another note, not everything in comics is considered canon to the story of superman. There are several different stories going on, all with their own continuity. So, I guess I would say that canon for superman is whatever dc tell us it is, because they have the rights to the character, and set the bar for everything else.

[Hopefulsuicide]

This thread isn't intended to become another 'smallville isn't canon' fight, i'm just wonderind what everyone considers canon...

... my idea of canon is

1. superman comes to earth, krypton blows up, he is an orphan found by martha and jonathan kent who raise him as their own. he is raised with human emotions but develops super powers as he matures due to the yellow sun. lana lang is his first girlfriend, pete ross is his best friend. there is no hope of returning to krypton and seeing his parents, making him feel alone in the world (until Kara i suppose, and zod etc)

2. he moves to metropolis (after travelling or FOS, i'm not too worried) and meets Lois Lane, who he immediately falls for and they eventually get married. Perry is the editor of the Daily Planet, and Jimmy is an eager photographer

3. he uses the costume to disguise himself when he saves people, which he spends his free time doing. the glasses he wears as Clark are also part of the disguise.

4. lex luthor is a very rich very nasty man, who hates superman for varying reasons, and wants him dead/beaten/under his control

5. kryptonite is his only physical weakness and there are several types affecting him in different ways

... to me it doesn't seem like smallville has stepped too far out of line (yet)

so what's everyone else's idea of Canon?

[cma_454]

Hopefulsuicide,
I'd agree with the premise of your post, but I'd go even less specific. For example the Kents weren't originally called Martha & Jonathan (in the comics or Adventures of Superman), Clark's paper was originally the Daily Star (not DP), the editor's name was not Perry White, the original comics had no Kryptonite, and Lex Luthor was originally a scientist (not a billionaire).

[Kalista]

There are main good points in the "Canon" thread.

http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88101&page=2

[Who]

I consider anything from the comics as canon. Anything from tv shows, movies, radio, books or other media is not canon. Chloe should be canonized though. She is a great character.

[Kalista]

But doesn't "canon" change?

[Joelito]

I wouldn't call it "change", I'll calle it "update". But still, there are certain things that must be untouchable, things that are part of the mytho, the original one.
See, the thing is that Smallville introduce some new characters, loveable ones, that people want to create or re-create the hole mytho, so they can "fit it-in".

For example, do you care if Clark Kent was short, fat and almost bald?
And don't start with Lois, that's another story :p

[SGuthrie27]

I voted DC Comics and only DC Comics, but a lot of times, I still think that Smallville marches to the beat of its own drum.

--SGuthrie ><>' :)--