OOOOO pull the "I'm an illegal alien" card [Archive] - KSiteTV Television & Movie Forums

Charissa70

12-07-2006, 09:00 PM

I did not like that out of Martha. I know she feels she now is in a position that should be following the law. (lol-like most politicials do-alot have illegal help in their homes), but she has always before looked at what was more important in the big picture or at least listened. She seemed out of character. (and did she ever turn clark in after like the red krytonite? She did not know everything, but she knew things weren't totally kosher) .

I did not like that out of Martha. I know she feels she now is in a position that should be following the law. (lol-like most politicials do-alot have illegal help in their homes), but she has always before looked at what was more important in the big picture or at least listened. She seemed out of character. (and did she ever turn clark in after like the red krytonite? She did not know everything, but she knew things weren't totally kosher) .

Charissa70

12-07-2006, 09:00 PM

SVTpat

12-07-2006, 09:20 PM

Originally posted by Charissa70
I did not like that out of Martha. I know she feels she now is in a position that should be following the law. (lol-like most politicials do-alot have illegal help in their homes), but she has always before looked at what was more important in the big picture or at least listened. She seemed out of character. (and did she ever turn clark in after like the red krytonite? She did not know everything, but she knew things weren't totally kosher) .

I think she was in perfect character. Farm family = more conservative. (in general) Clark lied to cop, harbored alien, broke the law, and didn't tell her about the alien. For all she knows, that kid could attack her, be stealing, ect... (yeah we know that it would not happen but Martha doesn't know that) I think the way she acted was like most people in that position would act.

Edit: *Yeah we know that would not happen.

boywithbluehanger

12-07-2006, 09:22 PM

"Mom I'm a freakin alien!! Damn you woman! if I wanna save a child Im gonna damn well save him!...now if you'll excuse me, I need to finish my chores...hmph!"

aivi

12-08-2006, 12:39 AM

I think it was out of character for Clark, since he was so into upholding the law and didnt want to break any rules. Well, he was before this episode. Clark's mom did have a point and so did the sheriff, about doing things the legal way since most rules are there for a reason, like knowing whos in the country. Fyi: my parents were immigrants and came to this country legally and are now citizens, which is harder for most people now. My dad petitioned my aunt to come, and its been 10+ years and nothing has happened, but theyre still waiting. As for Clark, its not like Clark's parents had a choice to send him to Earth. Krypton was exploding after all, and earthlings didnt know space aliens existed so Clark's biological parents couldnt ask for the government's help. If the boy wanted to meet his mom, then he should have gone to the government, or his mom should have petitioned him since its easier to petition an underaged child. But then we wouldnt have the story for this episode. I think the main point of this episode is that Clark begins to question laws and rules, and whether or not things have a gray area, instead of being black and white. At least Clark didnt have to compromise his conscience since his mom helped make the boy legal, which again is easily done when the mom is sponsored by an employer, and the mom asks the government for help with keeping her child with her.

Add: I forgot to mention that what Clark did in this episode is in opposition to what he told GA back then, when Clark didnt believe that the end justifies the means. In this epi, Clark broke the law because he wanted reunite a family. Im thinking Clark should go back to Ollie and apologize for being a hypocrite. Ollie had his reasons for breaking laws, and so did Clark, although Ollie's actions were more extreme (ie: stealing and murder).

ERIC524892

12-08-2006, 04:57 AM

I found it ridiculous that Clark would try to say he's an "illegal alien." The place he came from EXPLODED. It's gone.

I wasn't bothered by Martha's reaction to what was going on, I was however bothered by her not throwing kryptonite at him for his "I'm an alien" defense.

LuthorRequiem2

12-08-2006, 06:06 AM

"I posted a thread about Clark's human/kryptonian identity being an allegorical reference to the immigrant experience and no one was feelin' me. Oh well, at least Al Gough and Miles Miller see what I see. Superman stands up for immigrant rights. Awesome!"

I want to see this thread. I'd like to read an in-depth thing about this. That'd be awesome.

jmf1977

12-08-2006, 07:25 AM

I too found it ridiculous that Clark would characterize himself as the ultimate illegal alien. As in the other posts, Clark did not have a choice. His planet was destroyed and his parents saved him by sending him to Earth. Clark will eventually get a job, pay taxes, blah blah blah like every other American citizen. He will not spend the rest of his life getting a free pass from the governement.

WalterK

12-08-2006, 07:43 AM

If this was meant to be an allegory about immigration, it was a very stupid one. Clark's case IS different, and existing laws would handle HIS case differently (he is a refugee, and we have policies specifically for that). I'm sorry, but we can only absorb so many immigrants at a time, and we still accept WAY MORE immigrants than any other country. Martha was going to try to do something through legal channels. So, the moral of the story is that you can get special treatment if you have friends in high places. :)

Lightning Flash

12-08-2006, 07:46 AM

Originally posted by LuthorRequiem2
"I posted a thread about Clark's human/kryptonian identity being an allegorical reference to the immigrant experience and no one was feelin' me. Oh well, at least Al Gough and Miles Miller see what I see. Superman stands up for immigrant rights. Awesome!"

I want to see this thread. I'd like to read an in-depth thing about this. That'd be awesome.

I'm feeling you. Superman does stand for Immigrants, b/c, he is the ultimate immigrant, and resultant of the American dream. So, nice Superman references.

Red K 5

12-08-2006, 08:30 AM

Originally posted by i luv tom welling
Who didn't see that coming? Haha.
I saw that coming from a mile away

SteveS

12-08-2006, 08:36 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by aivi
[B]I think it was out of character for Clark, since he was so into upholding the law and didnt want to break any rules. Well, he was before this episode. Clark's mom did have a point and so did the sheriff, about doing things the legal way since most rules are there for a reason, like knowing whos in the country. Fyi: my parents were immigrants and came to this country legally and are now citizens, which is harder for most people now. My dad petitioned my aunt to come, and its been 10+ years and nothing has happened, but theyre still waiting. As for Clark, its not like Clark's parents had a choice to send him to Earth. Krypton was exploding after all, and earthlings didnt know space aliens existed so Clark's biological parents couldnt ask for the government's help. If the boy wanted to meet his mom, then he should have gone to the government, or his mom should have petitioned him since its easier to petition an underaged child. But then we wouldnt have the story for this episode. I think the main point of this episode is that Clark begins to question laws and rules, and whether or not things have a gray area, instead of being black and white. At least Clark didnt have to compromise his conscience since his mom helped make the boy legal, which again is easily done when the mom is sponsored by an employer, and the mom asks the government for help with keeping her child with her.

Add: I forgot to mention that what Clark did in this episode is in opposition to what he told GA back then, when Clark didnt believe that the end justifies the means. In this epi, Clark broke the law because he wanted reunite a family. Im thinking Clark should go back to Ollie and apologize for being a hypocrite. Ollie had his reasons for breaking laws, and so did Clark, although Ollie's actions were more extreme (ie: stealing and murder.

You are entirely correct, Clark is not an illegal alien, his status would be that of a refugee asking asylum. He crash landed in the U.S. accidnetally, his planet destroyed and was a baby. Nothing anywhere close to millions intentionally breaking the law to enter a country illegally. The latter takes planning and intent, Clark's arrival was purely accidental on his part, if not Jorel's.

MidgardDragon

12-08-2006, 08:42 AM

Originally posted by ERIC524892
I found it ridiculous that Clark would try to say he's an "illegal alien." The place he came from EXPLODED. It's gone.

I wasn't bothered by Martha's reaction to what was going on, I was however bothered by her not throwing kryptonite at him for his "I'm an alien" defense.

Clark is still here illegally, no matter what happened to his home. I'm sure if he revealed himself it's *possible* there is a law to protect him as a refugee. But as it is he has illegally forged adoption papers and he is in this country illegally, thereby making him an illegal alien.

You are entirely correct, Clark is not an illegal alien, his status would be that of a refugee asking asylum. He crash landed in the U.S. accidnetally, his planet destroyed and was a baby. Nothing anywhere close to millions intentionally breaking the law to enter a country illegally. The latter takes planning and intent, Clark's arrival was purely accidental on his part, if not Jorel's.

How can he be here legally under the refugee laws if they don't even know he's here? Plus, let's not forget those forged adoption papers. Clark is here illegally just for that.

Nerial

12-08-2006, 09:37 AM

Originally posted by jmf1977
I too found it ridiculous that Clark would characterize himself as the ultimate illegal alien. As in the other posts, Clark did not have a choice. His planet was destroyed and his parents saved him by sending him to Earth. Clark will eventually get a job, pay taxes, blah blah blah like every other American citizen. He will not spend the rest of his life getting a free pass from the governement.

I think Midgard Dragon said some good things about this. No matter what Clark's circumstances are, technically, he's an illegal alien. He has forged papers stating he was born in the States, and he clearly wasn't.

It's completely clear as to why he hasn't gone and asked the government for an exception, given that he would qualify as a refugee, but that still doesn't matter. As of this date, he's illegal.

bigv

12-08-2006, 10:36 AM

its on the general discussion page, the thread's called "clark's identity formation". and in regards to the things about "well krypton was going to explode," many people who come to this country are escaping things that are not much better than a planet exploding. im all for obeying the law, but just like in clark's case, sometimes people need help that has may require going around the law. but i know folks have different positions on immigration. but regardless of your view, my original point in bringing up the discussion was seeing the similarities between clark's identity as a kryptonian raised among humans and people who's identity may be rooted somewhere else (Mexico, China, Haiti, etc) but they're raised in the U.S. I would think that an immigrant (or a child of an immigrant) could somewhat relate to what clark is going through. i mean, im an african-american so i can't completely relate but my wife is hispanic and some of the things she says about her identity is similar to some of the things clark says (i really liked what he said in fallout- about wanting to finally embrace his kryptonian identity).

Nerial

12-08-2006, 10:51 AM

^^I'm not disagreeing with the way Clark and his family handled his situation. If they want to protect his identity, then he can't get official and factually correct papers. Therefore, he's illegal, despite his circumstances. That doesn't make him less of a good and honorable person.

MidgardDragon

12-08-2006, 10:54 AM

Originally posted by Nerial
^^I'm not disagreeing with the way Clark and his family handled his situation. If they want to protect his identity, then he can't get official and factually correct papers. Therefore, he's illegal, despite his circumstances. That doesn't make him less of a good and honorable person.

I think that's one thing that needs to be gained from this episode. There are some people in similar situations that can't get legal documents. Nothing nearly as big as Clark's problem, but you get the point. It's not always teh ebil Mexican crossing the border and "taking our jobs." Illegal immigrants are still people and have their own situations, one of the great things that I think this episode helped point out.

WalterK

12-08-2006, 11:39 AM

The episode sort of made the INS the bad guy, which is wrong. The INS was not forcing the mother to stay in the U.S. away from her son. If it was important enough for the mother to be reunited with her son, then she had the choice of returning home. If she did not have the money, then she could have turned herself in and the INS would have returned her home. If Clark had reported the boy, he would have been taken into custody, and if he was a minor the INS would make a reasonable effort to contact his parents.

Nobody is saying that illegal immigrants are not people , or that they should not be treated fairly. However, we are not obliged to accept an unlimited number of immigrants simply because they might be better off here. And if you look at everything overall, the U.S. still has a very liberal immigration policy.

Nerial

12-08-2006, 11:46 AM

^^That's a good point. I don't think INS is evil--they're just doing their job.

All I'm saying is that generalizing people into one category has never--ever--been a good idea, and (although I thought this episode was ill-conceived), one good thing it did was show that even our beloved superhero happens to fall into this not-so-loved category.

aivi

12-08-2006, 12:44 PM

Yes, it was very Clark/Superman of him to stand up for people being mistreated and taken advantage of. All people should be treated respectfully. However, I would think Superman would also try to enforce the law, maybe give the immigrants the number of a someone who will help them gain legal status.

MidgardDragon

12-08-2006, 12:46 PM

aivi

12-08-2006, 12:57 PM

Originally posted by MidgardDragon
Unfortunately, from what I understand, such a magic phone number does not exist. It's not just *poof* you're legal.

Well, this is what Clark's mom is about to do. She has her connections. *mimicking Yoda* "Do not underestimate the power of" senators and politicans. It does happen when youre well connected, though senators dont use it that often, unless pressed to. Remember that kid from Cuba, I think they would have made him a citizen if his dad didnt want to take the kid back.

dave73085

12-08-2006, 01:19 PM

Originally posted by aivi
Well, this is what Clark's mom is about to do. She has her connections. *mimicking Yoda* "Do not underestimate the power of" senators and politicans. It does happen when youre well connected, though senators dont use it that often, unless pressed to. Remember that kid from Cuba, I think they would have made him a citizen if his dad didnt want to take the kid back.

ehh, I worked in my U.S. Congressman's office summer before last and from everything I could tell, INS doesn't let federal elected officeholders (much less measly state senators) intervene in their immigration/citizenship process. Believe me, we had people calling in every other day asking for help.

Most we could do was send a letter to INS on their behalf, but that wasn't very likely to affect anything. Most it could potentially do was speed the process up, not going to transform someone from illegal to legal.

Now if Javier could get a presidential pardon, that'd be a different story

Nerial

12-08-2006, 02:20 PM

Originally posted by aivi
Yes, it was very Clark/Superman of him to stand up for people being mistreated and taken advantage of. All people should be treated respectfully. However, I would think Superman would also try to enforce the law, maybe give the immigrants the number of a someone who will help them gain legal status.

Believe me, it would be wonderful if there was such a number. There isn't. Another problem with this episode--it made a cop-out of a serious and complex situation when it comes to gaining legal status.

I had a friend from Mexico. I called lawyers for him, trying to find some loop-hole to get him citizenship. Researched all the books in the library. Nothing short of marriage would do, and even that was expensive and complex.

My friend gave up and moved back to Mexico to be with his family. That SUCKED.

teddybairs

12-08-2006, 02:33 PM

I'm not sure what to make of this episode in the grand Smallville scheme of things. It's fairly out there in terms of "social justice" issues in that Smallville usually doesn't touch them, or political issues. Usually you just see the ongoing Clark-Lana-Chloe-Lex soap-opera, with Jor-El thrown in on occasion to sweeten it just a little.

To ignore the reality of it especially on midwestern farms is to really be in a fantasy land these days. That being said, however, it just seems to be such an intrusion into the comic book world of Smallville.

The problem is that it's a divisive issue in the US, and one which may turn some fans off from watching the show if the powers that be choose to take a political side on it.

I liked the episode in general, it was Clark moving more and more to the Superman stage.

bigv

12-08-2006, 08:09 PM

actually, Clark technically broke the law when he helped Ryan. they didn't actually have the right to keep him in their home since he was legally in the custody of his foster parents. but sometimes what Clark knows is morally right happens to differ with technicalities. this kinda gets into the same "means justifying the ends" conversation that Clark and Oliver had. i think Oliver is right in that sometimes doing the right thing doesn't agree with the law (like stealing from wealthy mob bosses or making Lex give away all his money to charity- or almost)

Luthorville

12-08-2006, 08:17 PM

I liked the episode...but don't give me the in your face, political crap.

bigv

12-08-2006, 08:20 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by teddybairs
[B]I'm not sure what to make of this episode in the grand Smallville scheme of things. It's fairly out there in terms of "social justice" issues in that Smallville usually doesn't touch them, or political issues.

That's the very reason I loved the episode. It bothers me that Smallville never attacks social issues. Comic books have ALWAYS addressed social issues (X-Men is an obvious allegory for U.S. racial segregation, Batman screams issues of justice, and Superman has addressed issues of poverty, war, and the character of Lois Lane has historically been a liberating portrayal of women with an intelligent, professional, confident woman as a reporter in an age when women were only portrayed to be in the kitchen- i confess I copied that last idea from the lois lane special on the season 4 dvd). Smallville has bothered me in that they seem to dodge issues of real life society when they've had opportunities so I'm really glad they finally did. Because in the grand scheme of things, no matter what someone's politics are, we are all humans and we all value helping other people, and that's what Superman is all about. He's not liberal or conservative, he just wants to make the world a better place.

STFanatic

12-08-2006, 09:28 PM

Time to impeach Martha, but it really would be hard to deport Clark though.
:p

It is strange though, I hear people tell me it is hard to get legal papers, then others tell me it was not too hard, just fill out a lot of paperwork. When my forefathers came here they entered legally, but back then it wasn't that hard (from what they told me), Still breaking the law is just that, breaking the law. Weither it is murder or swiping a candybar from 7-11, the law is the law.
Before I retired from Security, I learned that someone close to me (my stepson) had a warrent out for him, I personally took him into custody and contacted the police, it was hard, but if I had not done so, I was breaking the law (just as Clark did).
It wasn't easy, being it was my wife's son and all, and he has a family, but it is the law.
Without laws there can be no country. Try being an illegal in another country, I know it isn't easier.

Mysticlies

12-08-2006, 09:36 PM

This is superman, if he was to follow the law correctly he would be in jail by now.

Clark:
A) Is guilty of breaking and entering about a thousand times.
B) Is guilty of stealing unwarranted information about a thousand times.
C) Is guilty of not disclosing information to the authorities
D) Is guilty of stealing thousands of dollars and not repaying them back(regardless of whether he was on red K or not)
E) Is guilty of causing damages to public property in the thousands of dollars.

All about Clark

12-08-2006, 11:31 PM

I don't think it's wrong to hold human life above laws. Clark saved a life, brought family together, then he was instrumental in helping him with citizenship (through his mother). Personally, if the mom was legal, then wouldn't it be easier to get the son legal.

I do think this is as close to political as TPTB will get though.

Nerial

12-09-2006, 06:14 AM

Originally posted by Mysticlies
This is superman, if he was to follow the law correctly he would be in jail by now.

Clark:
A) Is guilty of breaking and entering about a thousand times.
B) Is guilty of stealing unwarranted information about a thousand times.
C) Is guilty of not disclosing information to the authorities
D) Is guilty of stealing thousands of dollars and not repaying them back(regardless of whether he was on red K or not)
E) Is guilty of causing damages to public property in the thousands of dollars.

You're absolutely right. Why Martha Kent decided to go all, "we must obey the law," now seems even more out of character and silly.

Welling_is_pretty

12-14-2006, 07:57 PM

I knew it was coming as soon as Javier said he was illegal. I was all "no, he's" *points at Clark* "an illegal alien--literally!"

I was a bit disappointed in Mama Kent too. She's broke the law several times in the course of doing 'what's right' and i can't believe just because she's a state senator she would do differently now.

Soo OOC.

logan00xmn

12-17-2006, 09:57 PM

There are alot of places in the world right now that are facing severe political upheavel and in some cases out and out genocide.Justice and the actual law are 2 different things.Clark's actions speak of compassion and understanding.As to the reply that Ma & Pa Kent couldn't go to authorities after finding baby Kal that mentality is flawed.They could have ands legally they probably should have.Where did this baby come from?Is there a risk of some alien disease?Should the CDC be notified?None of these arguements really hold any water.

Any Superhero can be considered a vigilante and that in and of itself is against the law.

brownbear

12-18-2006, 11:40 AM

I don't think that Clark's an illegal alien. That seemed pretty forced. Clark didn't come here because he wanted to, but out of necessity. Doesn't that make him a refugee?

wraith808

12-18-2006, 02:08 PM

Refugees are still illegal aliens unless they request asylum. So yes, theoretically Clark is an illegal alien... they did a bit on L&C when Tempus took the presidency and sic'd the INS, IRS, FAA, and several other agencies on him.

The fact of the matter is that the US isn't the land of the free, but the land of litigations, and to portray a superhero in the *real world* would be terribly tedious and difficult, so I suspend disbelief...