Was this episode enough to resolve the Jor-El siutation convincingly?

[Nospam]

Was there enough is this episode to convince you that the situation with Jor-El is resolved, i.e. Clark's reluctance to embrace Jor-El's plan for his future as saviour of Earth?

[Batman_Beyonder]

Yes. Thanks to Raya, Clark finally understands his father was a good man.

[jonpetersbites]

(From the extended version of Superman II shown on ABC in 1986, which I have)

Eve Tessmacher: I FOUND IT! I think. (referring to the bathroom in the FOS)

Lex Luthor: (sighs) She found it.

[InLove_with_Chloe]

Originally posted by Nospam
Was there enough is this episode to convince you that the situation with Jor-El is resolved, i.e. Clark's reluctance to embrace Jor-El's plan for his future as saviour of Earth?

Yes, I was very pleased.
I think Clark has finally understood who the good guys are...

[Nospam]

Originally posted by jonpetersbites
(From the extended version of Superman II shown on ABC in 1986, which I have)

Eve Tessmacher: I FOUND IT! I think. (referring to the bathroom in the FOS)

Lex Luthor: (sighs) She found it.

:) I forgot about that scene! I don't have that particular version on tape, but I remember watching it. If I recall correctly, ABC aired Superman and Superman II sequentially and both with additional footage at the time.

Thanks for memories!

[jimmyolsenblues]

It would have been nice for them to explain Clark is never actually speaking to an alive Jor-El but a machine.

[Liriel]

Emphatically NOT. This does not really explain (and certainly doesn't justify) the lying, blackmailing, threatening, brainwashing and murder. Even if he had some hazy "save the world" ideal, it doesn't justify it (see the bad guy in Serenity). It doesn't make him worthy of being Clark's role model and it doesn't make it make sense that Clark would put his fate in Jor-El's hand (especially after the brainwashing) or follow Jor-El's example.

And I don't even think it makes all the bad things he's done make sense.

[superpal1]

There are some issues left to be resolved, such as some of the things you mentioned. As for the brainwashing of Clark into Kal-el, I feel it had to be done by Jor-el to get the Crystals back. Clark was never going to do it, so he had to reprogram him. If Clark would have just started to listen earlier, a lot of things would not have happened the way they did.

[wraith808]

Originally posted by Liriel
Emphatically NOT. This does not really explain (and certainly doesn't justify) the lying, blackmailing, threatening, brainwashing and murder. Even if he had some hazy "save the world" ideal, it doesn't justify it (see the bad guy in Serenity). It doesn't make him worthy of being Clark's role model and it doesn't make it make sense that Clark would put his fate in Jor-El's hand (especially after the brainwashing) or follow Jor-El's example.

And I don't even think it makes all the bad things he's done make sense.

As pointed out... Jor-El is dead. That is a machine, an AI.

[Liriel]

Originally posted by wraith808
As pointed out... Jor-El is dead. That is a machine, an AI. Yeah, I know. But we still have to deal with Jor-El having programmed the AI to behave this way.

[wraith808]

I don't think he programmed the AI to behave this way. I think he programmed goals. And the AI, when confronted with a belligerent clark, made some bad calls- Calls which when taken by themselves would lead to the right ending by the wrong means.

[Liriel]

Originally posted by wraith808
I don't think he programmed the AI to behave this way. I think he programmed goals. And the AI, when confronted with a belligerent clark, made some bad calls- Calls which when taken by themselves would lead to the right ending by the wrong means. Fine. I, too, think Jor-El's behavior in "Relic" (which we know to be the real Jor-El) is completely inconsistent with the AI's behavior. Not to mention the AI's own behaviors and statements conflict and contraindicate each other. Nonetheless, it doesn't change the core issue for me - the AI should not be trusted and in no way should Clark turn himself over to it.

[Lightning Flash]

Clark and Jor-El should be a happy family now. They'll start to bond when Clark's training starts.

[BadToad]

Not even close. I don't know how Raya showing up and saying "Jor-El was a good man" resolves or explains the Jor-El we've seen thus far on the show. It might be a place to start, but its certainly not a resolution.

Its feeling like a massive retcon, actually.

[Liriel]

Originally posted by BadToad
Not even close. I don't know how Raya showing up and saying "Jor-El was a good man" resolves or explains the Jor-El we've seen thus far on the show. It might be a place to start, but its certainly not a resolution.

Its feeling like a massive retcon, actually. I sadly agree.

[Crispin Glover]

I'm just glad there was mention of Relic and how the Kents were chosen for Clark.

I also agree with, wraith808, I don't think he programmed the AI to behave this way. I think he programmed goals. And the AI, when confronted with a belligerent clark, made some bad calls- Calls which when taken by themselves would lead to the right ending by the wrong means.

I'm also glad there was mention of Clark's training because it started in Arrival but was cut short by the need to save Chloe. Then Clark didn't return and lost his powers.

[boywithbluehanger]

I think the script should have had Raya say something like:

"He was strong, agressive, and very strict- he expected the best from anyone he came into contact with. And he always had our best intrest in mind.

Instead they made Clark seem stupid for not fully trusting Jor-El.

[Nerial]

^^Yeah, I thought they resolved the "Is Jor-El evil or good?" issue too quickly. Not to say it didn't need to be resolved, but this episode felt as if it should have been two, but it was rushed.

I think I would have been content with the Jor-El issue if Clark had told Raya about Jor-El's abuses (not to mention killing Kara), and she had an explanation, like, "It's a computer program. It can't react the same way Jor-El would have. It's only goal is to train you."

But, at least Clark is being proactive. That's a good thing. So, we'll see how that goes.

[last man of krypton]

Originally posted by wraith808
I don't think he programmed the AI to behave this way. I think he programmed goals. And the AI, when confronted with a belligerent clark, made some bad calls- Calls which when taken by themselves would lead to the right ending by the wrong means.

I was thinking of something similar. With Krypton's destruction imminent, perhaps Jor-El didn't have the time to make the AI understand about the sanctity of life or how to deal with teenage rebellion. I would've liked to have seen Raya communicating with the AI and realising something was wrong with it.

[CptnCardboard]

See, I'm of the mindset that someone tampered with the AI/the message in the ship regarding Clark and the conquest of Earth. Because Good!Jor-El doesn't explain the whole "Rule them" thing (I don't remember what the message actually said, but it was perfectly clear...)

[lee_the_flee]

sure, they didn't explain tit for tat about Jorel's action's in the past (re the brainwashing, etc. somebody mentioned), but they did make an attempt to say to us (and to clark) "Yes, jorel is really a good man" and clark's destiny is actually to save earth, etc.

I'm actually very happy TPTB took the time to adress this issue, and I didn't think they needed to explain all the questionable things Jorel did in the past. Now that they've done this, I'm willing to brush aside those under the thought that Jorel may have made some bad mistakes (well, atleast the A.I. Jorel), but with the intention of shaping/protecting clark.

[WangTang]

Originally posted by last man of krypton
I was thinking of something similar. With Krypton's destruction imminent, perhaps Jor-El didn't have the time to make the AI understand about the sanctity of life or how to deal with teenage rebellion. I would've liked to have seen Raya communicating with the AI and realising something was wrong with it.

So Jor-el had time to give the AI nearly god-like abililtes but could not forsee his "son" would be rebellios?

[Spoon AZ]

Ever since "Sacred" in Season 4 the show seems have to changed it's mind about whether Jor-El is evil or not.

Personally I can chalk up any of Jor-El's actions as tough love and believe he was a good man, with the exception of healing Martha's womb and allowing her to get pregnant in Season 2 only to kill the baby as a retribution for Clark not returning to Jor-El.

There is no excusing that in my mind.

[diva]

Raya's lines and lecturing about Jor-el were really the only things that bothered me about her in the episode. But who knows if she knows or suspects the kind of things Jor-el (or his AI or whatever) has done to Clark. I wish Clark would have told her specifically about these things instead of giving her some vague line about Jor-el causing him pain.

In order for me to be convinced that Jor-el is truly a good guy, the show would have to give me some kind of reasonable, non-retcony answer, instead of fans having to wank our way into a reasonable explanation. And outside of the AI program being tampered with somehow or something along those lines, with the way they've portrayed Jor-el's 'spirit' over the past 3 years, I could only see him (or it) as an extreme version of a 'ends justify the means' kind of semi-good guy at best.

But I suspect that this is, in fact, the closest we'll get to having this issue resolved.

That's my long answer to the question. My short answer is no.

[Nerial]

Originally posted by Spoon AZ
Ever since "Sacred" in Season 4 the show seems have to changed it's mind about whether Jor-El is evil or not.

Personally I can chalk up any of Jor-El's actions as tough love and believe he was a good man, with the exception of healing Martha's womb and allowing her to get pregnant in Season 2 only to kill the baby as a retribution for Clark not returning to Jor-El.

There is no excusing that in my mind.

I can blame Jor-El for a lot of things, but that incident was actually Clark's fault. Jor-El might have hurt him, but Clark choose to destroy the ship, not knowing what would happen, and the blast hit his parent's truck. It was an accident, but that mistake goes to Clark. Jor-El even warned him that he'd hurt the people he loves. I'm not saying I agree with Jor-El one bit (burning a symbol into someone's chest is NOT acceptable behavior), but Martha's miscarriage wasn't the doing of Jor-El.

[last man of krypton]

Originally posted by WangTang
So Jor-el had time to give the AI nearly god-like abililtes but could not forsee his "son" would be rebellios?

You ever tried to design a program with god-like abilities? Takes a lot of time, and it's not always possible to teach it exactly how to be right. I made one once years ago, but some guy named Bill Gates stole it from me and took over the world with it... I vowed to never make any more...

[Rafael122]

It really all depends. Clark doesn't sound full convinced, but I'm pleased with the fact that he knows he's messed up, that Jor-El has had the right intentions throughout most of this.

If anything, Jor-El has done enough for Clark to be convinced, its just Clark doesn't see that.

[Nerial]

Originally posted by last man of krypton
You ever tried to design a program with god-like abilities? Takes a lot of time, and it's not always possible to teach it exactly how to be right. I made one once years ago, but some guy named Bill Gates stole it from me and took over the world with it... I vowed to never make any more...

:p :rotfl: :rotfl: :p

[Kal-ed]

IMO its plot, I mean if Jor el had been nice, and clear about what he meant withe every word, the series would have ended long time ago, a reluctant Clark to a kriptic and ambiguous Jor el was a plot device to drag out more season, Things would have been fine if the series had ended by the 5 season, acoording to the original plan, the 4th would have been pretty much what this one has, not with the GA, probably also without Lois, and some other stuff but I think the general idea of this season (second last) was what was originaly intended for the 4th season (the original second last) so Jor el wouldnt have done all the crazy stuff he did during the drag out seasons (4 anf 5) but tptb needed to give Clark a real reason to be reluctant to his destiny, like him thinking it was something else, so they wrote a criptic Jor el that talks in circles and avoids questions and then now that Clark is convinced Jor el is good all will be good, I feel happy, cause as far as I know Jor el was never evil, he never lied, he never killed anyone (he said that life force needed balance and by bringing Clark back someone around him would die, but it didint mean Jor el would kill that person, but the life force (or what ever balances life in the universe in SV canon), Black mailing, well I have been blackmailed by my parents when Im being stupid and inmature, so all in all I never really wanted an explanation about Jor el, so this more that enough for me.

And its an AI people, how much friendlier can windows get?? Kiss us good night when we turn off the coputer, or ask us not to buy so much crap online? I dont think Jor el could have anticipated Clark being a broodmachine and the streght of Clana (one of the strongest reasons why Clark had been so reluctant and wanted a normal life). Even Jor el anticipated something of that sort, since he did meet one of her ancesters, then the AI is perfect just as it is, the AI need to be equally or more stuborn than Clark if it were to have any affect on him.

What I still want an explanation about is why Clark was such a whiner and selfish, now that is still unclear for me.

[alienkinfolk]

damn you guys are good,this has been my fav thread yet,I hate to say it but i did not know that Jor-El was an AI program. Somehow I missed that...thanks. It explains alot,not everything but alot.
I like how Clark was tight lipped around Raya in regards to his bad relationship with Jor-el.

[RedPhoenix23]

I've always wondered: where the hell is the bathroom in the FOS?

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D :D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Seriously, if Jorel took such care... where the bleep is it?

[RMF]

They made great strides toward resolving the conflict between Clark and Jor-el, because now Clark has a clearer picture of Jor-el the man, but there's still an 800-lb gorilla in the room. They didn't explain the "rule them with strength" inscription on the ship, and that was what first drove Clark away from his heritage. Knowing how powerful he was, he was afraid that he would become an instrument of oppression on Earth, and that was unacceptable to him. The inscription can't be a mere mistranslation, because when Dr. Walden got zapped by the cave wall, he woke up saying the same thing: "Clark Kent will rule the world." Moreover, AlMiles said on the Season 2 DVD that they made Jor-el a somewhat dark character on purpose. Too much writing has gone into creating this negative picture of Jor-el for it to be waved away in one episode. If they retcon it away, they make their hero look stupid and make great swaths of their own writing nonsensical.

It was irritating to see that the script didn't allow Clark to push back against Raya's scolding with the list of Jor-el's excesses, not to mention allow him to question the dueling descriptions of his role as conqueror or protector. I know Clark feels tremendously guilty for the jeopardy Earth was put in because he did not stop Zod initially, but committing murder of an innocent in order to save others isn't a trivial moral issue. This is especially true now that we know that there was another technology, the PZ crystal, that could have defeated Zod without causing the deaths of others. Do the writers seriously want us to think that Clark is wrong for not committing murder because an untrustworthy AI told him to, especially when Superman is so famously reluctant to kill? Are they saving the resolution of these issues for an eventual confrontation between Clark and Jor-el, or are we meant to just forget all about it?