"What was he like? My father?"

[MrZeppo]

Something happened tonight which I really wanted to see. I usually thought it would happen with Clark and the FOS AI, but he did it with Raya which was so much better.

He finally asked what kind of man Jor-El was. Because he's been curious for a little while now because he always viewed Jor-El's intentions as malevolent, usually by his own fault, which ultimately ended up with something getting messed up, but recentley realized Jor-El isn't that bad. He learned his birth father was a good man, a hero, just like Jonathan Kent was.

He also accepted he is Kal-El, and that's not necessarily a bad thing.

A lot of people are coming down on him for not defending himself for all the times Jor-El has come off as evil. For acting sorry. But he's slowly been realizing for a while now how wrong he's been and I think that's why he didn't really defend himself. That what he's known is just a computer program, otherwise he wouldn't be curious about what kind of person his father was.

Also, as a side note, I loved how Raya asked what's it like for him here. To live among us. To feel the thrill of his powers. Subtley pointing out they aren't a bad thing, but a gift. And you can see how it slowly started changing his perception of things.

[Coyote]

What's up with this Raya and Daddy - El? She really seemed to have the hots for him.

[D.M.A.]

Originally posted by Coyote
What's up with this Raya and Daddy - El? She really seemed to have the hots for him.
haha I thought that too,and thought clark would point that out himself.She jus seems like she was interested in jor-el imo,but guess we'll never kno now :D .I still like her talks wit clark tonight,she really drove it home in the BDA brain.

[gj430]

i think she just respected him

[Liriel]

Originally posted by MrZeppo

He finally asked what kind of man Jor-El was. Because he's been curious for a little while now because he always viewed Jor-El's intentions as malevolent, usually by his own fault, which ultimately ended up with something getting messed up, but recentley realized Jor-El isn't that bad. He learned his birth father was a good man, a hero, just like Jonathan Kent was.


I disagree. Jor-El has been malevolent, often without good reason. His first personal message to Clark said "rule the human race" - this does not engender trust and shouldn't. He has threatened, blackmailed, brainwashed, and murdered people. There's plenty of reason not to trust him.

[Dor el]

Originally posted by Liriel
I disagree. Jor-El has been malevolent, often without good reason. His first personal message to Clark said "rule the human race" - this does not engender trust and shouldn't. He has threatened, blackmailed, brainwashed, and murdered people. There's plenty of reason not to trust him.

Yeah,I agree that Jor el has behaved malevolently or at least that is the way his communications have been perceived. Jor el certainly could have articulated what his goals and plans for Clark were with a great deal more clarity instead of talking to Clark cryptically. Perhaps that's how folks communicated on Krypton, but Clark was not raised on Krypton and Clark would not have known how to interpret Jor el intentions unless Jor el spoke to Clark in Clark's language. Jor el had been to earth. He should have known how to talk to Clark in a way that Clark would not have misunderstood. Under those circumstances, I would not have trusted Jor el either. I don't blame Clark here. He was just using the tools in his toolbox. Namely, the English language earth style.

[earth-2 kal-el]

I thought that when Clark asked Raya what was he like then followed up with My Father was a HUGE step in the right direction

[wraith808]

Originally posted by Liriel
I disagree. Jor-El has been malevolent, often without good reason. His first personal message to Clark said "rule the human race" - this does not engender trust and shouldn't. He has threatened, blackmailed, brainwashed, and murdered people. There's plenty of reason not to trust him.

But as pointed out- that wasn't Jor-El. The voice even said it at one point- I am Jor-El's will. It's an AI...

[Liriel]

Originally posted by wraith808
But as pointed out- that wasn't Jor-El. The voice even said it at one point- I am Jor-El's will. It's an AI... Yes, but Jor-El programmed the AI to be that way. And when we talk about Jor-El what he's said and done, we are usually referring to the AI, as it has had far more screentime and done far more than the real Jor-El on this show. I'm still (futilely?) hoping for something to have screwed up the programming. Eradicator or something. Something to say that the lying, murdering, threatening, brainwashing AI is not the will of the real Jor-El.

[wraith808]

You don't program an AI to be a certain way. That's why they call it an AI... artificial intelligence. He programmed it with goals, and the AI doesn't have a soul... it just tries to reach the goals.

[Liriel]

Originally posted by wraith808
You don't program an AI to be a certain way. That's why they call it an AI... artificial intelligence. He programmed it with goals, and the AI doesn't have a soul... it just tries to reach the goals. Then he shouldn't have sent it. I also disagree that you don't program an AI. You program it so that it can learn and grow and think for itself. But if you can program the core directives (instead of it deciding for itself) you should at least include a footnote about not murdering or brainwashing people.

What I am saying, let me make myself clear here, has almost nothing to do with the real Jor-El. I am saying the AI is malevolent and is untrustworthy and that Clark should not pursue training with the AI or hand himself over to it any fashion.

I also do not think the AI reflective of the real Jor-El. Which is why I've been hoping for corrupted programming.

[Lightning Flash]

It was nice to see Clark asking Raya about his father, seems like Clark's been wondering for a while, and it's nice to know he cares.

The AI is advanced technology, more advanced than human comprehension. Jor-El's AI might as well be the real Jor-El. It was kinda' like putting a part of his soul into it, like a horcrux for those of you into Harry Potter.

[jimmyolsenblues]

I wish they addressed the fact, the Jor-El clark knows and Jor-El raya knows is the difference between a machine and a man.

[wraith808]

^^ Exactly. When I said you don't program an AI, I meant that you don't program total directives etc. You program parameters, and operational directives, but not absolutes. And as it grows, you hope that this is enough. That's what the Asimov rules are supposed to be.



Then he shouldn't have sent it.

And do what exactly? Leave his son totally in the dark? The AI has been helpful, and is the reason that the earth isn't currently destroyed, and has done a lot of good. It's means have been questionable at times, but not the ends.



Jor-El's AI might as well be the real Jor-El.

if it was, then this wouldn't jive with what Raya said, and what Clark has found out. Why would the person who opposed Zod, and created the Phantom Zone to contain prisoners, and saved Clark torment him so?

[bobser]

Originally posted by Liriel
Yes, but Jor-El programmed the AI to be that way. And when we talk about Jor-El what he's said and done, we are usually referring to the AI, as it has had far more screentime and done far more than the real Jor-El on this show. I'm still (futilely?) hoping for something to have screwed up the programming. Eradicator or something. Something to say that the lying, murdering, threatening, brainwashing AI is not the will of the real Jor-El.

If I'm not mistaken, Brainiac is another AI that was created with good intent but turned out to be bad.

[Dor el]

But, the only Jor el that Clark knew was the AI Jor el. That is the only compass Clark had regarding which direction Jor el wanted Clark to go. Raya had the luxuary of knowing Jor el the man. Clark did not. He had to arrive at his perceptions based on the only interactions he had with Jor el. And those, I believe, were not favorable toward Jor el.

[wraith808]

^^ True as far as the interactions. False as far as what he discovered during the whole Zod incident. Which is what brought up his desire to know more, IMO.

[nabadua]

Before Clark read the message in the first ship's heart about him "ruling the Earth" which was misinterpreted by the BDA and fans, Dr. Swann revealed the message sent from space with the first meteor shower that said, " This is KalEl, last survivor of Krypton. PROTECT AND DELIVER HIM FROM EVIL . If JorEl was malevolent in any way why would he make this request?
Also, Brainiac as an AI was only trying to accomplish a mission for the person that programmed him, namely, Zod. Now that his mission is over, his 'morality' is up in the air.

[Liriel]

Originally posted by nabadua
Before Clark read the message in the first ship's heart about him "ruling the Earth" which was misinterpreted by the BDA and fans, Dr. Swann revealed the message sent from space with the first meteor shower that said, " This is KalEl, last survivor of Krypton. PROTECT AND DELIVER HIM FROM EVIL . If JorEl was malevolent in any way why would he make this request?
Also, Brainiac as an AI was only trying to accomplish a mission for the person that programmed him, namely, Zod. Now that his mission is over, his 'morality' is up in the air. Okay, there's no proof Clark misinterpreted the message. He definitely did read it right (you can look at the screencaps and read it). What it means is up for debate.

The Jor-El AI is malevolent. It has threatened, brainwashed, and murdered. This are not nice actions, and it doesn't matter if they are for some greater good (which doesn't seem the case in some of them), Clark should not turn himself over to the being who committed them for training (and a possible repeat brainwashing).

I do not think Jor-El AI and real Jor-El mesh, which is why I have supported the idea that the AI was either accidentally or intentionally corrupted.

And yes, even if Jor-El was evil (and I don't think the real one was), he would make that request. You don't have to send them the baby with a message to the humans saying "he going to grow up and conquer you." Invaders often say they come in peace or for good purposes.

[jack1487]

Originally posted by Dor el
Yeah,I agree that Jor el has behaved malevolently or at least that is the way his communications have been perceived. Jor el certainly could have articulated what his goals and plans for Clark were with a great deal more clarity instead of talking to Clark cryptically. Perhaps that's how folks communicated on Krypton, but Clark was not raised on Krypton and Clark would not have known how to interpret Jor el intentions unless Jor el spoke to Clark in Clark's language. Jor el had been to earth. He should have known how to talk to Clark in a way that Clark would not have misunderstood. Under those circumstances, I would not have trusted Jor el either. I don't blame Clark here. He was just using the tools in his toolbox. Namely, the English language earth style.


I agree Jor-El should of talked to him in the language that he (Clark) would understand best.

Jack

[Kryptonian-Ronin]

Its seems that Jor-El is very much the "ends justify the means" type of guy, whereas Clark is growing up to be the "means lends validity to the end" type.

No wonder they butt heads.