Raya's "Talk" with Clark

[98chase]

Well, she definately said that he was sent here by Jor-El to protect Earth. Discuss.

[eas]

"The Fortress was a storehouse for all the knowledge of the universe...."

Hhhmm... she seems to be saying that Jor-el is more like what we've seen in the movies. Why isn't Clark coming out and quoting some of the things that Jor-el has said in the past? Why is he suddenly all guilty about Jor-el?? He had good reasons for not trusting Jor-el before.

[gj430]

he did say he couldn't trust him because of everything he did. Then he listened to what she had to say and realized he had to move foward.

[wraith808]

A lot of that could have been out of context from clark's side. And add to that the fact that it's not *really* Jor-el... it's actually an AI from what I gather (his will)...

[jimmyolsenblues]

I am surprised they did not address Clark is never talking to an alive Jor-El but a computer.

[Last Sun]

I think they needed to talk more about Clark being sent to Earth to conquer, because that was totally different from the movies. It seems like they're just completely changing that stance now, and probably because they either don't know how to resolve it and/or they don't have time to. It's a shame, because we've all been wondering how they would end that plotline, and they'll probably cop out on us.

[wraith808]

When did it say he was here to conquer and exactly what did it say? I remember some things that seemed to point to that, but it never being explicitly stated... Like the crusade bit, etc...

[spideyfan]

Im glad she had the "talk" with CK. He needed comeone to tell him of his destiny and how Jor-El sent him as a savior to the good for the planet.

Im glad CK lost Raya and i'm glad the "training" that should have happened in season 5 was bought up (Continuity!).

Im glad that finally CK realized his destiny!

[Leviathan]

I think it shows Clarks move to a more "selfless" individual, a HUGE character quality in Superman. Everytime he has acted selfishly and defied Jor-el, bad things have happened. It also shows some sides of Jor-el, namely that he was an impatient person, and that he favored logic above emotion in all cases. Yet, if you consider him sending his only son to a planet light years away...how much emotional fortitude would that take? Quite a lot I imagine.

[k18]

To be fair, Clark did start his training in "Arrival" but left it to save Chloe. He should have went back to finish it, but at least he did start it.

[WalterK]

I think there are some continuity problems with the Clark/Jor-El story. But it looks like the writers have decided not to address them. They want to move on with the story, so Clark's past relationship with Jor-El is now a moot point. In the earlier seasons when Jor-El was rather nasty, I thought that the Clark/Jor-El story would eventually be resolved by having Clark defy Jor-El and choose his own destiny. But the writers have been changing Jor-El ever since the start of season 4. They have also had Clark decide that it was his fault for defying Jor-El, even though he had good reasons for doing so. That's water under the bridge now. Clark has decided to resume training at some unspecified future time, and accept his destiny.

[boogalou86]

Well, he knows his destiny now.

[ginnyfan]

Originally posted by eas
"The Fortress was a storehouse for all the knowledge of the universe...."

Hhhmm... she seems to be saying that Jor-el is more like what we've seen in the movies. Why isn't Clark coming out and quoting some of the things that Jor-el has said in the past? Why is he suddenly all guilty about Jor-el?? He had good reasons for not trusting Jor-el before.

I think ultimately Clark heard what he wanted to hear and did what he wanted to do. He could have asked Jor-el for explanations, gone to the fortress and examined a few of the crystals... but Clark never did any of this b/c ultimately he wanted to be human and marry Lana. That was what was really behind a lot of his hate for Jor-el. Yeah Jor-el said some strange things but Clark did not make any move to try and understand them better until it was too late.

[BadToad]

I really don't know how you can misunderstand seeing your father being choked by a laser rope, and then being sucked into a cave wall and brainwashed, while your father is lying braindead in a coma for 3 months (what would've happened if Martha removed the life support?) I really don't think Clark was just misunderstanding Jor-El there.

I think they're doing a massive retcon here with Jor-El, and just glossing over the nasty stuff. IMO

[ginnyfan]

^Yeah but Jonathan left out a key point that he made an agreement with Jor-el... Jor-el delivered and Jonathan copped out.

Kal-el said he was in a place that seemed like home... and the result of his being sucked into the cave wall and brainwashed was that he (almost) immediately set out on a quest that, when accomplished would have prevented a second meteor shower, Zod's return and opened the fortress so that Clark could be trained to stop the humans from destroying their world with greed and corruption as Kryptonians destroyed theirs.

Sounds to me like desperate times call for desperate measures.

Wonder what would have happened if Jonathan encouraged Clark to go? As he'd promised?

[BadToad]

Yeah, he set out on a quest that involved him ripping off the door of an airplane while it was in flight, with absolutely no regard to the occupants inside. So, how many lives would've been endangered by brainwashed Kal-El to ensure his quest? It certainly seemed to me like this would've concerned him not at all.

I thought the idea of Clark Kent/Superman was that he wasn't, and would never be a "ends justifies the means" type of guy? So, in fact, Clark's rejection of Jor-El's extreme methods would absolutely be in character for the person he is now, and the man he's going to become (or, I'd want him to become). Should he have killed Lex in "Vessel"? Jor-El told him to do that too, yet I can't see myself getting behind a Clark that could murder, whatever the reason.

And whether Jonathan backed out or not, and I agree he did, trying to kill him is OK? Thats something we want Clark to ever be OK with? Not me. IMO

And lets not forget that Kara/Lindsey also murdered someone whilst under Jor-El's control, and when he no longer had use for her, she disappeared. I'm guessing she's no longer amongst the living.

[gwtiburon]

I loved this episode....I liked seeing Clark with someone who understands him..but just ONCE can she stay alive for more than one episode?? I know he will end up with Lois, but c'mon..I liked the aspect of the show Raya brought, and maybe could have given Clark more insight on his father (or the audience lol).

It was great to see this whole fighting with Jor El thing stop, and see Clark head more towards what we know and love. Think this is going to be an awesome season (Justice episode!).

I do not understand though why Jor El is portrayed so harshly on this series, when in the movies he is much more of a generous benefactor. Maybe we'll find out more before Clark starts training.

And glad to see the last couple minutes of this episode..both with Clark and his Mom..and the ending (don't want to spoil).

But bring back Raya..

[teddybairs]

I agree where Raya is concerned, bring her back. I didn't really see the whole romantic interest thing happening, but more like a big sister thing happening, which is something Clark really needed. A Kryptionian Family member to straighten him out, and that was just what he got in Raya. Not every man-woman relationship has to be romantic, and let's remember she knew him as a baby for crying out loud. She was probably there when he was born.

No, the end does not justify the means, but it is also true that sometimes desperate times call for desperate measures and had the brainwashed Kal-El actually finished what Jor-El set him out to do it would have kept Brainiac and Zod far, far away for a lot longer. What do you do when the lives of a whole planet are at stake? Do you ponder the moral significance, or do you do what is necessary to save six billion lives? Jor-El tried doing it the easy way, remember? Clark panicked and made it a hundred times harder.

The only way to really stop Adolf Hitler was to invade Europe at D-Day. How many lives were sacrificed both willingly and unwillingly? What would have happened if they weren't? The only way to stop a Japanese Imperial military machine was to drop the a-bomb on Japan itself. What would have happened if we hadn't? The end doesn't always justify the means, but neither do the means always justify the end. And without the means, the preferable end may not occur. This is reality. It's cold, and it's hard, but it is reality. And yes, people have nightmares even when they make those hard decisions for the right reasons.

[ginnyfan]

^ Great post!


Originally posted by gwtiburon
I do not understand though why Jor El is portrayed so harshly on this series, when in the movies he is much more of a generous benefactor. Maybe we'll find out more before Clark starts training.


I think it's kind of the whole teenage thing of the parents being the enemy... but as you get older you get to know your parents better and... you realize that you misjudged them.


Originally posted by BadToad
Yeah, he set out on a quest that involved him ripping off the door of an airplane while it was in flight, with absolutely no regard to the occupants inside. So, how many lives would've been endangered by brainwashed Kal-El to ensure his quest? It certainly seemed to me like this would've concerned him not at all.

I thought the idea of Clark Kent/Superman was that he wasn't, and would never be a "ends justifies the means" type of guy? So, in fact, Clark's rejection of Jor-El's extreme methods would absolutely be in character for the person he is now, and the man he's going to become (or, I'd want him to become). Should he have killed Lex in "Vessel"? Jor-El told him to do that too, yet I can't see myself getting behind a Clark that could murder, whatever the reason.

And whether Jonathan backed out or not, and I agree he did, trying to kill him is OK? Thats something we want Clark to ever be OK with? Not me. IMO

And lets not forget that Kara/Lindsey also murdered someone whilst under Jor-El's control, and when he no longer had use for her, she disappeared. I'm guessing she's no longer amongst the living.

Well I'll say that there are questions that need to be answered. And Clark made NO attempt to find out the answers to these questions. Perhaps if he had gone to the fortress when Jor-el first called him in Season 2, he could have used his knowledge to find better means to the same ends.

But Clark just completely closed himself off to Jor-el... I don't think Jor-el's methods were all good... but something is better than nothing! Ignoring a warning about the end of the world? That's not super either. Clark's solution to Jor-el's call to the fortress in Season 2? Destroying the ship that saved Martha's life and healed her barreness? Um... not good either. He put lots of lives in danger then too.

What about ignoring the warning of the world ending (!!!) to carry unconcious Lana to the hospital and sit by her bedside? That's better!

So I think Jor-el does a ham fisted job with the right motives... Which perfectly sets up the place for Superman. Being raised by humans he's more sensitive to the fact that... You can't just barge in (well somewhat more sensitive) and tell what you know and just expect people to follow you... I dunno.

I disagree that Jor-el is some big baddie and Clark is just this innocent who had no other choice but to oppose Jor-el. Clark made a LOT of bad choices using the fact that he didn't understand Jor-el as an excuse to make assumptions that led to a lot of people being in danger when it's arguable that he could have clarified the very statements that confused him by going to the fortress...

But I'm willing to agree to disagree.

[gwtiburon]

I agree Raya seemed very much like an older sister. Would have been nice to have her on just a little longer.

I thought it was funny Clark never once told her all the things Jor El put him through. I know he said he brought pain..just didn't put up much of a defense to Raya. Guess since it's only one episode couldn't get a whole lot in there.

OH, good point about Clark misinterpeting Jor El. I guess looking back Clark tried to do things based on what he THOUGHT Jor El wanted or was going to do...then did the opposite.

I really like the tie between Clark opening himself up to Jor El, and then the fortress :)

[myankskent]

Originally posted by teddybairs


No, the end does not justify the means, but it is also true that sometimes desperate times call for desperate measures and had the brainwashed Kal-El actually finished what Jor-El set him out to do it would have kept Brainiac and Zod far, far away for a lot longer. What do you do when the lives of a whole planet are at stake? Do you ponder the moral significance, or do you do what is necessary to save six billion lives? Jor-El tried doing it the easy way, remember? Clark panicked and made it a hundred times harder.


To me, Clark should've looked for those stones a lot sooner than he did. In sacred, Jor-El told Clark that if humans found the stones before him, it would lead to famine, war and the earth's ultimate destruction. But in Commencement, Clark told Jor-El that the stones had nothing to do with him. Did he not listen to Jor-El in sacred or realize the power of the stones in Transference when Lionel took over his body? That's where I fault Clark. And then he did the same thing in Arrival by not getting back to the fortress and then after he was shown a picture of Brainiac in Void, he took no steps to try and stop him even though his own mother almost died at the hands of Brainiac's plot the first time. He basically ran down to Honduras and then gave up. What Raya told Clark in this episode was 100 percent true. Clark didn't try hard enough, he just gave up. Well now in season 6, it looks like he has finally learned his lesson, unless TPTB decide to drag Clark's development out later this season. But right now, Clark Kent is looking great in season 6 and I hope it stays that way.

[ginnyfan]

^Amen!

[wraith808]

Originally posted by teddybairs
The only way to really stop Adolf Hitler was to invade Europe at D-Day. How many lives were sacrificed both willingly and unwillingly? What would have happened if they weren't? The only way to stop a Japanese Imperial military machine was to drop the a-bomb on Japan itself. What would have happened if we hadn't? The end doesn't always justify the means, but neither do the means always justify the end. And without the means, the preferable end may not occur. This is reality. It's cold, and it's hard, but it is reality. And yes, people have nightmares even when they make those hard decisions for the right reasons.

No, these weren't the *only* ways to do these things, it's just what was chosen. I think the fact that Clark asks Raya what his father was like is a telling point- he knows he hasn't really met his father, but a program that was left to guide and teach him. And that program has made some mistakes that if that *had* been Jor-El would have been questionable. But no matter how good an AI is, it still doesn't have a soul, nor feelings. The Jor-El program, lacking those, made some expedient calls- to complete it's program- that the real Jor-El probably wouldn't have made.

[ginnyfan]

^That's a really good point. I never thought about it that way. Hmmm...

[Stephen Robinson]

Yeah but Jonathan left out a key point that he made an agreement with Jor-el... Jor-el delivered and Jonathan copped out.

Kal-el said he was in a place that seemed like home... and the result of his being sucked into the cave wall and brainwashed was that he (almost) immediately set out on a quest that, when accomplished would have prevented a second meteor shower, Zod's return and opened the fortress so that Clark could be trained to stop the humans from destroying their world with greed and corruption as Kryptonians destroyed theirs.

**********

True. However, Jonathan behaved precisely as you would expect him to behave. He and Martha wanted Clark to lead a normal life -- not go running off on some crusade. I would be fine with that friction (Jor-El's desires versus the Kents) but Jor-El sent Clark deliberately to the Kents (something Raya mentioned again last night). Surely, he knew that Clark being raised by a loving, normal family would have its advantages but the disadvantage would be his not really being ready -- at such a young age -- to assume the responsibility Jor-El wanted. In other words, why didn't Jor-El send Clark to live with military people.

[bobser]

With just a few lines, whoever wrote this episode (which was great in setting direction for the series in my opinion) managed to put Jor-El in proper context, make Clark see the major error in his lack of trust and perhaps give the series hero what he needs to start his training.

Jor-El's importance to Krypton was pretty blatant in this episode. Raya mentioned how Jor-El was able to use his tech to capture the powerful Baerne. She also mentioned something along the lines "when Jor-El finally fell, it was rumored his son may have survived..." perhaps implying the importance of him and his family to both Krypton and the beings that were in the Phantom Zone.

It was great how Raya scolded Clark for not finishing his training and also telling him pain is a part of a hero's journey. That's pretty key.

Though it was too bad the Raya character had to die, I think it was the final piece in letting Clark know how crucial his training to use his special abilities on Earth would be.

[ginnyfan]

^I agree!

Oh this thread is so much fun. :)


Originally posted by Stephen Robinson
True. However, Jonathan behaved precisely as you would expect him to behave. He and Martha wanted Clark to lead a normal life -- not go running off on some crusade. I would be fine with that friction (Jor-El's desires versus the Kents) but Jor-El sent Clark deliberately to the Kents (something Raya mentioned again last night). Surely, he knew that Clark being raised by a loving, normal family would have its advantages but the disadvantage would be his not really being ready -- at such a young age -- to assume the responsibility Jor-El wanted. In other words, why didn't Jor-El send Clark to live with military people.

Why didn't Jor-El send Clark to live with military people? Oh that's a good point. They gave Clark a rock solid moral code and a wonderfully giving heart. And having that as a foundation is key to his becoming Superman. Jor-el's training would take care of the military aspect.

And I completely understand Martha and Jonathan being resistant to Clark's destiny and wanting to hold on to all their normal dreams for their son. Being possessive of him... And I think a lot of the things they tell Clark are true, about him having to write his own story... however, he can't write his story without his training. I think Clark will end up coming up with his own way of saving the world... from an informed point of view. After the training. Denying his destiny has been disastrous but I don't think he'll just be blindly following Jor-el.

[bobser]

Originally posted by Stephen Robinson

True. However, Jonathan behaved precisely as you would expect him to behave. He and Martha wanted Clark to lead a normal life -- not go running off on some crusade. I would be fine with that friction (Jor-El's desires versus the Kents) but Jor-El sent Clark deliberately to the Kents (something Raya mentioned again last night). Surely, he knew that Clark being raised by a loving, normal family would have its advantages but the disadvantage would be his not really being ready -- at such a young age -- to assume the responsibility Jor-El wanted. In other words, why didn't Jor-El send Clark to live with military people.

I think the answer to that lies in a prior episode, though I'm horrible at remembering episode numbers though so someone will have to help. :lol:

In a prior season, Jor-El actually visited Earth. He met a girl (I think somehow related to Lana) and somewhat fell in love without her initially knowing he was an alien. When a random cop in the town became jealous and accused Jor-El of murdering his "sweetheart" (which was a lie as the cop who became mayor did it), Jor-El happened across the Kent farm as he was preparing to leave Earth.

Despite the rumors and lies, Harlan trusted Jor-El and said something about being "able to judge a man's character" and also told him if he ever needed anything in the future, he would be happy to help.

It looks like when Krypton was on the verge of destruction, Jor-El felt he could trust one family to raise his defenseless infant son and properly teach him morals he needed; the Kent's.

I think a military family would have either exploited an infant Clark with scientific testing, or have him brainwashed as the goverments top soldier sort of like Red Son storylines.

[98chase]

Ginnyfan, I completly agree with what you say about Clark deliberatly disobeying Jor-El. It was stupid and Clark knows it now. But, can you really blame him? The very first time he heard Jor-El's AI speak, Jor-El told him that he was to 'Concur and Rule these people with a powerful fist' (I know that is no where near what he said, but that is the feeling I got from the scene). Clark knew that he had the power to do that. So, in his mind, he has the physical strength and was purposely sent here to rule (according to his father). His father then restrained Clark (which no one else on this Earth could do) and burned the family crest onto his chest, symbolizing that no matter what Clark wanted, he had to do what Jor-El wanted. Jor-El then told Clark he had like 12 or 24 hrs to make the decision to come willingly or Jor-El would force him.....I wouldn't have listened to a thing Jor-El said either. In fact, I too would have tried to get rid of him....by blowing up the ship. That was the first time Clark disobeyed him. Well, I'm sure, that everytime Jor-El told Clark to do something, Clark thought back to the whole 'Concur and Rule' thing and again, disobeyed. Something I think you and I both would have done.....well, unless you're into the thought of ruling an entire planet :p


Originally posted by ginnyfan

Why didn't Jor-El send Clark to live with military people? Oh that's a good point. They gave Clark a rock solid moral code and a wonderfully giving heart. And having that as a foundation is key to his becoming Superman. Jor-el's training would take care of the military aspect.


Originally posted by bobser

I think a military family would have either exploited an infant Clark with scientific testing, or have him brainwashed as the goverments top soldier sort of like Red Son storylines.
I think both of you are right on the money.

[Crispin Glover]

I think all of you have mentioned great ambiguities and inconsistancies in past Jor-El episodes. I think that initially the writers were trying to throw us for a loop with Jor-El being evil and Clark sent to conquer, but it was way more interesting than trying to tie everything into the movies all of a sudden.

It also would have been more interesting if Clark became Superman in defiance of Jor-El.

[JorEl23]

Originally posted by ginnyfan
^ Great post!



I think it's kind of the whole teenage thing of the parents being the enemy... but as you get older you get to know your parents better and... you realize that you misjudged them.



Well I'll say that there are questions that need to be answered. And Clark made NO attempt to find out the answers to these questions. Perhaps if he had gone to the fortress when Jor-el first called him in Season 2, he could have used his knowledge to find better means to the same ends.

But Clark just completely closed himself off to Jor-el... I don't think Jor-el's methods were all good... but something is better than nothing! Ignoring a warning about the end of the world? That's not super either. Clark's solution to Jor-el's call to the fortress in Season 2? Destroying the ship that saved Martha's life and healed her barreness? Um... not good either. He put lots of lives in danger then too.

What about ignoring the warning of the world ending (!!!) to carry unconcious Lana to the hospital and sit by her bedside? That's better!

So I think Jor-el does a ham fisted job with the right motives... Which perfectly sets up the place for Superman. Being raised by humans he's more sensitive to the fact that... You can't just barge in (well somewhat more sensitive) and tell what you know and just expect people to follow you... I dunno.

I disagree that Jor-el is some big baddie and Clark is just this innocent who had no other choice but to oppose Jor-el. Clark made a LOT of bad choices using the fact that he didn't understand Jor-el as an excuse to make assumptions that led to a lot of people being in danger when it's arguable that he could have clarified the very statements that confused him by going to the fortress...

But I'm willing to agree to disagree.


WOW, an intuitive, insightful, intelligent "arguement" here on the forums!!!!!! Thank you!!! Typically speaking, you don't get many like this folks so I encourage ALL of you to interact with this lady!!! Instead of "ship" ( I really hate that word ) promoting, immature banter, or otherwise witless commentary she disagreed, made a sound arguement supported by facts and/or factual based conjecture. It was respectful and had a point which in fact I strongly agree with!

Guys, Jor-El is the most brilliant icon of a race of stoic but advanced aliens. The society as a whole is more along the lines of say Vulcan than human. Emotions were weeded out to a certain degree with the wars and other non logical based parts of human culture. That's not to say he doesn't love his son but it is expressed much differently than the father that coddles his confused teenager thru puberty. Jor El sacrificed his life, his reputation, etc etc to insure that his heir would not only survive a doomed race but would be in such a superior position in the enviroment he was sent to, he could survive virtually alone. Every minute detail from the choice of the protective/loyal/virtuous adoptive parents, to the AI in the ship and caves, to the Fortress, up to and including the "planting" of Raya in the PZ were painstakingly designed by this man to protect his son from harm and ulimately put him in a position to guarantee that what happened to Krypton could never happen to Earth!!

Therefore, when Clark (who has the sensitive human traits that Kryptonians have evolved past ) starts suffering through the teen angst we all do he can't comprehend what JorEl is trying to say. So like any human teenager, he rebels in most cases ( ie the ship destruction, the red k in metropolis stint, the whole "kara" thing that led into s4, the interruption of training to save lanas disloyal slutty @ss, up to and including the brianiac/zod disaster.

He's starting to get it, as evidenced by Fallout but Jor El is no monster and eventually he'll figure it all out. Jor El lived the mistakes Clark is making and like any good father he wants better for his son. As for the "conquer" message. Misinterpretation, plain and simple. First of all, it was his FIRST experience with Kryptonian language could it be possible much like English that he confused the verse or context? Of course!
Or simpler still ( and my personal opinion ) : he said "conquer" but never included Earth or humans in the message. Perhaps conquer EVIL or injustice maybe????

All I know is despite the screw up TPTB concluded S5 with, they are really shaping up the conclusion ( S6 and beyond ) VERY nicely...it's all coming together!!!


:D

[jack1487]

Originally posted by wraith808
When did it say he was here to conquer and exactly what did it say? I remember some things that seemed to point to that, but it never being explicitly stated... Like the crusade bit, etc...

It was a message that he read in the space ship (can't remenber what season, when but I think that it was after he was downloaded with his native language).

Jack


Originally posted by JorEl23
WOW, an intuitive, insightful, intelligent "arguement" here on the forums!!!!!! Thank you!!! Typically speaking, you don't get many like this folks so I encourage ALL of you to interact with this lady!!! Instead of "ship" ( I really hate that word ) promoting, immature banter, or otherwise witless commentary she disagreed, made a sound arguement supported by facts and/or factual based conjecture. It was respectful and had a point which in fact I strongly agree with!

Guys, Jor-El is the most brilliant icon of a race of stoic but advanced aliens. The society as a whole is more along the lines of say Vulcan than human. Emotions were weeded out to a certain degree with the wars and other non logical based parts of human culture. That's not to say he doesn't love his son but it is expressed much differently than the father that coddles his confused teenager thru puberty. Jor El sacrificed his life, his reputation, etc etc to insure that his heir would not only survive a doomed race but would be in such a superior position in the enviroment he was sent to, he could survive virtually alone. Every minute detail from the choice of the protective/loyal/virtuous adoptive parents, to the AI in the ship and caves, to the Fortress, up to and including the "planting" of Raya in the PZ were painstakingly designed by this man to protect his son from harm and ulimately put him in a position to guarantee that what happened to Krypton could never happen to Earth!!

Therefore, when Clark (who has the sensitive human traits that Kryptonians have evolved past ) starts suffering through the teen angst we all do he can't comprehend what JorEl is trying to say. So like any human teenager, he rebels in most cases ( ie the ship destruction, the red k in metropolis stint, the whole "kara" thing that led into s4, the interruption of training to save lanas disloyal slutty @ss, up to and including the brianiac/zod disaster.

He's starting to get it, as evidenced by Fallout but Jor El is no monster and eventually he'll figure it all out. Jor El lived the mistakes Clark is making and like any good father he wants better for his son. As for the "conquer" message. Misinterpretation, plain and simple. First of all, it was his FIRST experience with Kryptonian language could it be possible much like English that he confused the verse or context? Of course!
Or simpler still ( and my personal opinion ) : he said "conquer" but never included Earth or humans in the message. Perhaps conquer EVIL or injustice maybe????

All I know is despite the screw up TPTB concluded S5 with, they are really shaping up the conclusion ( S6 and beyond ) VERY nicely...it's all coming together!!!


:D

I agree that part of Clarks outlook was the teen thing that all parents have to look forward too one day (with 4 kids and now grandkids going through it once again I am glad that I don't have to go through with it again.

In fact my son whose son is 15 has said that he was starting to think a little like me! But Clark had to go through this as well and now that he's 20 years old things do look different from the other side of the whole teen scene but it does on the most part makes us a better person.

Also Jor-El did not make it easy for Clark to understand what he wanted him to do, remember he used threats to get Clark to do what he wanted.


Jack

[98chase]

Originally posted by JorEl23
WOW, an intuitive, insightful, intelligent "arguement" here on the forums!!!!!! Thank you!!! Typically speaking, you don't get many like this folks so I encourage ALL of you to interact with this lady!!! Instead of "ship" ( I really hate that word ) promoting, immature banter, or otherwise witless commentary she disagreed, made a sound arguement supported by facts and/or factual based conjecture. It was respectful and had a point which in fact I strongly agree with!

Guys, Jor-El is the most brilliant icon of a race of stoic but advanced aliens. The society as a whole is more along the lines of say Vulcan than human. Emotions were weeded out to a certain degree with the wars and other non logical based parts of human culture. That's not to say he doesn't love his son but it is expressed much differently than the father that coddles his confused teenager thru puberty. Jor El sacrificed his life, his reputation, etc etc to insure that his heir would not only survive a doomed race but would be in such a superior position in the enviroment he was sent to, he could survive virtually alone. Every minute detail from the choice of the protective/loyal/virtuous adoptive parents, to the AI in the ship and caves, to the Fortress, up to and including the "planting" of Raya in the PZ were painstakingly designed by this man to protect his son from harm and ulimately put him in a position to guarantee that what happened to Krypton could never happen to Earth!!

Therefore, when Clark (who has the sensitive human traits that Kryptonians have evolved past ) starts suffering through the teen angst we all do he can't comprehend what JorEl is trying to say. So like any human teenager, he rebels in most cases ( ie the ship destruction, the red k in metropolis stint, the whole "kara" thing that led into s4, the interruption of training to save lanas disloyal slutty @ss, up to and including the brianiac/zod disaster.

He's starting to get it, as evidenced by Fallout but Jor El is no monster and eventually he'll figure it all out. Jor El lived the mistakes Clark is making and like any good father he wants better for his son. As for the "conquer" message. Misinterpretation, plain and simple. First of all, it was his FIRST experience with Kryptonian language could it be possible much like English that he confused the verse or context? Of course!
Or simpler still ( and my personal opinion ) : he said "conquer" but never included Earth or humans in the message. Perhaps conquer EVIL or injustice maybe????

All I know is despite the screw up TPTB concluded S5 with, they are really shaping up the conclusion ( S6 and beyond ) VERY nicely...it's all coming together!!!


:D
Excellent post, thank you! You could very well be right. It's making me question my previous post. Not the point I was trying to get across, but for some reason I though Jor-El's AI told him to conqure. I didn't think he had read it. If he had in fact read all that, then it very well could have been a misinterpritation. Anywho, thank you for your enjoyable insight.


Originally posted by jack1487
It was a message that he read in the space ship (can't remenber what season, when but I think that it was after he was downloaded with his native language).

Jack



I agree that part of Clarks outlook was the teen thing that all parents have to look forward too one day (with 4 kids and now grandkids going through it once again I am glad that I don't have to go through with it again.

In fact my son whose son is 15 has saif that he was starting to think a little like me! But Clark had to go through this as well and now that he's 20 years old things do look different from the other side of the whole teen scene but it does on the most part makes us a better person.


Jack
I miss my grandpa
Grandparents are always so knowledgeable and insightful. Thank you.

[jack1487]

Originally posted by 98chase
Excellent post, thank you! You could very well be right. It's making me question my previous post. Not the point I was trying to get across, but for some reason I though Jor-El's AI told him to conqure. I didn't think he had read it. If he had in fact read all that, then it very well could have been a misinterpritation. Anywho, thank you for your enjoyable insight.


I miss my grandpa
Grandparents are always so knowledgeable and insightful. Thank you.


Thank You very much.

Jack

[crzyeyez1345]

I think it would be ironic if that the 1st reason why Clark doesnt trust Jor-El was the message in the ship, and during his training he learns that he missread it or Jor-El was just fooling with him

[ginnyfan]

^LOL!

Jor-El: "Kal-El... about that first message. JUST FOOLING!"

*Jor-El laughs. Clark does not.*


Originally posted by 98chase
Ginnyfan, I completly agree with what you say about Clark deliberatly disobeying Jor-El. It was stupid and Clark knows it now. But, can you really blame him?

I do understand that from Clark's perspective his first message from Jor-el was really off putting. Clark was already really unhappy about the news that he's an alien and trying to hold onto his dreams (Happily Ever After with Lana being one of them) that he had before he knew about his alien heritage. He needed to be eased into the whole destiny thing and Jor-el, though kind, was very cold and blunt and the wording was... Well, I can understand why he jumped to the conclusions he did. Initially, no I can't blame him. :) Jor-El23 answers this wonderfully!


Originally posted by JorEl23
WOW, an intuitive, insightful, intelligent "arguement" here on the forums!!!!!! Thank you!!! Typically speaking, you don't get many like this folks so I encourage ALL of you to interact with this lady!!! Instead of "ship" ( I really hate that word ) promoting, immature banter, or otherwise witless commentary she disagreed, made a sound arguement supported by facts and/or factual based conjecture. It was respectful and had a point which in fact I strongly agree with!

Guys, Jor-El is the most brilliant icon of a race of stoic but advanced aliens. The society as a whole is more along the lines of say Vulcan than human. Emotions were weeded out to a certain degree with the wars and other non logical based parts of human culture. That's not to say he doesn't love his son but it is expressed much differently than the father that coddles his confused teenager thru puberty. Jor El sacrificed his life, his reputation, etc etc to insure that his heir would not only survive a doomed race but would be in such a superior position in the enviroment he was sent to, he could survive virtually alone. Every minute detail from the choice of the protective/loyal/virtuous adoptive parents, to the AI in the ship and caves, to the Fortress, up to and including the "planting" of Raya in the PZ were painstakingly designed by this man to protect his son from harm and ulimately put him in a position to guarantee that what happened to Krypton could never happen to Earth!!

Therefore, when Clark (who has the sensitive human traits that Kryptonians have evolved past ) starts suffering through the teen angst we all do he can't comprehend what JorEl is trying to say. So like any human teenager, he rebels in most cases ( ie the ship destruction, the red k in metropolis stint, the whole "kara" thing that led into s4, the interruption of training to save lanas disloyal slutty @ss, up to and including the brianiac/zod disaster.

He's starting to get it, as evidenced by Fallout but Jor El is no monster and eventually he'll figure it all out. Jor El lived the mistakes Clark is making and like any good father he wants better for his son. As for the "conquer" message. Misinterpretation, plain and simple. First of all, it was his FIRST experience with Kryptonian language could it be possible much like English that he confused the verse or context? Of course!
Or simpler still ( and my personal opinion ) : he said "conquer" but never included Earth or humans in the message. Perhaps conquer EVIL or injustice maybe????

All I know is despite the screw up TPTB concluded S5 with, they are really shaping up the conclusion ( S6 and beyond ) VERY nicely...it's all coming together!!!


:D

WOW! *blushes and covers her Clois badge with her hand* Thank you so much for the compliment! And this is a fantastic post. You just said everything perfectly. Especially the info about Jor-El and the Kryptonian culture. Fantastic post. :)

[JorEl23]

Originally posted by Ginnyfan
I do understand that from Clark's perspective his first message from Jor-el was really off putting. Clark was already really unhappy about the news that he's an alien and trying to hold onto his dreams (Happily Ever After with Lana being one of them) that he had before he knew about his alien heritage. He needed to be eased into the whole destiny thing and Jor-el, though kind, was very cold and blunt and the wording was... Well, I can understand why he jumped to the conclusions he did. Initially, no I can't blame him. :) Jor-El23 answers this wonderfully!



WOW! *blushes and covers her Clois badge with her hand* Thank you so much for the compliment! And this is a fantastic post. You just said everything perfectly. Especially the info about Jor-El and the Kryptonian culture. Fantastic post. :) [/B]

Alright, now I'm the one blushing!!:o Thank YOU for all the kind words, G!! It's just tough sometimes being a HUGE Smallvile fan with decent working knowledge of the comic lore and sitting idly by when things unique to the show like the dating triangles or the speculation over new to show characters ( Lionel. Chloe..) or the break from comic continuity become paramount to these discussions. Most of us here know the history of the comics and/or have followed the man of steel on other TV projects and movies therefore we should all know JorEl was a hero to his people who selflessly gave our planet its greatest hero! Despite this unique interpretation on the story, that part of it could never change

[HornFan02]

To share some insight I had on the issue with Jor'el's desires for Clark and his rebellion against them.

One of the the first times we run into Jor'el is in the cellar where he talks to Clark.

Clark exclaims "But everything I know and love is here in Smallville"

Jor'el displays holographic images of the Kents and Lana and has them blown away like dust in the wind, a representation of what will happen if humankind continues on their current course ... towards it's own annihilation. He knows it will not last, and Clark will live through this and survive what humans do to each other.

Clark, still not past his human emotions, does not want to let go and can't see the big picture, and really has no way to tell what the future holds. Jor'el has seen these tendencies before and knows what will happen.

Jor'el states, "You will bring pain and suffering to those you love." should he not undergo his destiny

In a way, this is true, that humans will destroy themselves, and there will be pain and suffering. Clark took his own actions, and the same still came true. There was one path to Jor'El, and many others away but all lead to the same, inevitable result of suffering.

Jor'el is now kind of on Clark's "crap"list now. It's awfully hard to come back from it. This is where the AI factor kicks in, and I VERY MUCH AGREE with the person who stated that AI has no emotion tied into it. It's like being Data from StarTrek ... he is able to get stuff done but doesn't understand the emotional side such as humor and love.

(Let's start calling Jor'El JE or J'El, because I'm tired of typing the whole thing :p)

The AI program is programmed to retort to Clark's selfish desires in season 2. For every excuse, it has a response. Now that Clark has rejected J'el, it is programmed to try to bring it back, without regret of repurcussion. Because Clark's destiny is so important and J'el wants to protect him, the program is taking some liberties with the well being of certain characters. It wants to bring Clark back to his destiny, but by flawed methods: see Kara, reprogramming Clark, the crusade. Even though the crusade was to prevent any further evil (see brainiac's arrival/2nd meteor shower), Clark doesn't understand this, and this is why he is so laz'i'faire about retrieving them.

Flashforward to Episode 1 and 3 of season 5. Clark disobeys J'El again and J'el is forced to use Lionel to save CK's life. The programming knows to save Ck's life, it must use the life force of someone else. Most logically, it tries to remove the life force of the object that is holding CK to smallville: Lana. It offers CK some reprieve though, but takes Jonathan Kent's life instead, another factor that wanted Clark to lead a normal life.

Obviously, Jor'el is deep on Clark's hate list right now, but someone as young as Clark can't see deeply enough. He is so deep on his hate list, he can't even see Jor'El's love for him when he inhabits Lionel Luther and hugs Clark.

Jump forward to present, where Clark can't turn to Jor'el anymore. This affects Clark again ... he doesn't know what he is to do with his life. This is typified when Green Arrow explains to him he has to go out to save people, not let the people who need saving come to him, even after his father explained to him he is to be a force for good.

But it takes someone who truly knew the real Jor'El, not some program to really hit home with Clark and really explain what Jor'el was like, once Clark asks her what he was like. This shows he's finally curious to what the real Jor'el was like, after he has been missing him with a dead Fortress.

Raya explains to him the hero, the good person, the detailed and the brave person that Jor'El was, and to put true emotion behind Jor'el's desires for Clark in this world.

HOME RUN!

Clark finally realizes maybe Jor'el isn't such a bad guy and starts to put the pieces of the puzzle together, from all the times he's encountered Jor'El. He realizes what he has to do, and there is nothing more for him in Smallville. He does have the one loose end to tie up, being the zoners, and then he will be ready for his training.

(whew, I'm tired after that)

[ginnyfan]

^heeheehee... Great post.

The A.I. argument is a really good point. And I do think Clark needed an actual Kryptonian person to talk to before launching into his destiny... I disagree with some of the stuff you said (specifically targeting Lana... for one...). But great post.

[Welling_is_pretty]

Originally posted by eas
"The Fortress was a storehouse for all the knowledge of the universe...."

Hhhmm... she seems to be saying that Jor-el is more like what we've seen in the movies. Why isn't Clark coming out and quoting some of the things that Jor-el has said in the past? Why is he suddenly all guilty about Jor-el?? He had good reasons for not trusting Jor-el before.
actually that quote does jive with what Jor-El told Clark in Season 4. When Clark needs to find the stones/crystals he says something like "the crystals are a source of great knowledge and power" or whatever and that that power is not meant for humans, only for Kal-El.
So yay for continuity (for once!).

Yeah, I wondered why Clark isn't all "excuse me, but that machine you keep calling my father tried to kill my human Dad, burned a symbol on my chest and tried to control me with it, resurrected a dead girl and used her to try to get me to do his bidding, and brought me back to life in exchange for someone's else life ending. Forgive me if I don't exactly think that's Father of the Year material!"
:D


Oh and yeah, why Raya says he was sent to save them but the message in the ship said he was meant to rule....
Unless he's meant to save us by becoming our Alien Overlord and making sure we behave ourselves....