Cleaning up Kansas...has Clark turned proactive?

[Nerial]

This seems to be the biggest complaint from fans--Clark is not proactive enough in his heroic acts.

Seeing him exhausted from trying to clean up Metropolis has me thinking that maybe, he's starting to be better at the hero act.

At the same time, he was reluctant to save Lex.

So, what do you think? Will Clark be more proactive this time around, or go back to his angsty ways?

[myankskent]

I like him more right now, but I'm not going to fall into this trap. Clark usually looks good at the beginning of each season, but as the season moves along, it gets worse. Once Jor-El gets back into the story, that is when I will really get a better idea of how good/bad Clark is going to be this season. This thing with GA is going to be key as well.

[Dor el]

I am hopeful that he is stepping up and shouldering some of the responsibility which he is so capable of handling. He recognizes his role in the whole Zod mess and realizes that he must do what he can to help put things back together. Even when he felt awful because of his PZ rhinovirus, he still tried to work. To make things better.

Yeah, he was hesitant to help Lex, but given the situation and circumstances, I probably would have given it second thoughts myself. He is still operating under some of those "human learned emotions" Jor el mentioned. It appears that he is closer to accepting Jor el as a father image or maybe as a real father. We'll have to wait and see.

[warriorrenegade]

Im hopeful aswell. Clark is close for sure, but the babysteps taking over the years better start to pick up pace. Its getting close to the end of this show. Clark needs to accept his heritage already. With the FOS "dead" Im sure theres going to be a time where Clark just says to himself. " I need to know what kind of man my father was, and who am I" and he needs to get it from the source not from a cave painting or intergalactic AI. With all the "Phantoms/Kryptoms" running loose hes going to need help understanding and fighting them. Who better to teach you than the man who put them there.

[Timester]

Originally posted by Nerial
This seems to be the biggest complaint from fans--Clark is not proactive enough in his heroic acts.

Seeing him exhausted from trying to clean up Metropolis has me thinking that maybe, he's starting to be better at the hero act.

At the same time, he was reluctant to save Lex.

So, what do you think? Will Clark be more proactive this time around, or go back to his angsty ways?

I started to see the episode right now and that was the first thing made me come to the K-Site. Clark is helping the cleaning and rebuilding of Metropolis. :eek:

OK, it's still out of guilt, but is a great step foward.

[InLove_with_Chloe]

Originally posted by Timester
I started to see the episode right now and that was the first thing made me come to the K-Site. Clark is helping the cleaning and rebuilding of Metropolis. :eek:

OK, it's still out of guilt, but is a great step foward.

I agree.
It's like AlMiles spent quite some time at this board, over the summer. One sentence can heal so much. I remember you and quite some others complaining about things like that.
See, it was worth it!
:)

[loisluvr_72]

I think most of it is guilt (since he feels responsible for Zod being release), but I think some is Clark stepping up, since he knows he has the abilities to be able to help out. I still don't think he is fully ready to accept his destiny yet, but maybe the GA will help push him more in that direction. Also, with the Justice episode coming later this season, I think these two things combined will get Clark started on the path of accepting his destiny.

[angelfire east]

It's a step forward but falling into the trap of thinking Clark is all wonderful and brillant because of it. I agree it's more out of guilt then just a plain want to help others, so he's still not doing the right thing for the right reasons. I hope one day he learns but I'm not holding my breath.

[lilkoolmaria]

Well, at least he's trying. I gotta give him credit for that.

[Kryptonian-Ronin]

Was he the only one helping clean up and re-build?
No.

Goes to show how low his character is viewed that something like this is noteworthy.

[Nerial]

^^I'm going to take Clark's defense on this for one reason--he's exhausting himself doing it. Yeah, I'm sure there are a good number of people working non-stop as well, but most people wouldn't go that extra mile, and the ones that do we give a lot of admiration to.

I think that's noteworthy. Not to say it isn't fueled by guilt, but still, he's trying. :)

[Kryptonian-Ronin]

It is a step in the right direction, no doubt.

Though I am sure there were many people ( as is the case in a situation like this) that exhaust themselves in helping others.

That Clark did it, from what seems to be out of guilt, is noteworthy in the sense that he could do more than anyone else.

Other than that, things like this should be expected from his character, much like the saving of an innocent live just because he can.

Yes, perhaps I am being harsh, but after 6 years of him humping the neighbours cat, I have no consideration when he finally does what he is suppose to.

[All about Clark]

Originally posted by Nerial
^^I'm going to take Clark's defense on this for one reason--he's exhausting himself doing it. Yeah, I'm sure there are a good number of people working non-stop as well, but most people wouldn't go that extra mile, and the ones that do we give a lot of admiration to.

I think that's noteworthy. Not to say it isn't fueled by guilt, but still, he's trying. :)

Not to mention that alot of those that would be helping with the clean-up are being paid to do so, so that others can go back to their usual lives.

And how many nights did he give up? I mean, look how far Lana's hand has healed, you gotta think it was at least 3 weeks, she was using it on the piano.

Yes it is guilt, but he's helping a city that isn't even his own. That shows something.

[Nerial]

^^I'm tired of him being heroic defensively. He hears the ticking, but doesn't step into action until the bomb explodes. That sucks.

I'm hoping optimistically that he's going to be more proactive now. He was better in Season Five compared to Season Four, but still needs to get his act together.

[HalJordan4184]

I don't think he's being proactive at all. As was said, he hears the bomb ticking, but waits for the boom before rushing in. Metropolis, per characters on the show, has a seedy underbelly, and rampant crime problem already. It needed cleaned up long before. The fact it took the world nearly ending, and half the city finally burning down, being wrecked, whatever for Clark to step up and do SOMETHING, is not proof he's growing. Especially when Martha tells him she's proud of him or whatever, but he needs to slow down, and his excuse, is that it's his fault to begin with. Superman is about cleaning his mess up yes, but he also doesn't, as smallville Clark does, start the mess in motion because of his refusal to act.

[Lightning Flash]

Clark's just trying to help, I think it's great.

[last man of krypton]

Originally posted by HalJordan4184
Especially when Martha tells him she's proud of him or whatever, but he needs to slow down, and his excuse, is that it's his fault to begin with. Superman is about cleaning his mess up yes, but he also doesn't, as smallville Clark does, start the mess in motion because of his refusal to act.

In that first scene, aside from Clark taking the blame for "Dark Thursday", he admitted that he could've stopped it if only he'd done something that he's always been relunctant to do in the past; trusting Jor-El. That, I see, is a step in the right direction. So maybe he's not 100% there, but perhaps this is the first step to him becoming truly proactive.
Moreover, he didn't just sit in his loft and mope about it (which is what we normally see Clark do whenever a serious problem is related to him in some way). Another step in the right direction.

[ginnyfan]

I'm going to be super optimistic and say YES! Welcome to the new proactive Clark!!! Oh wait. I forgot about him telling Chloe he wasn't really a hero. Well he was ill at the time and feeling a little depressed...

And you're right that about the bomb ticking and Clark stepping in as it explodes. But even he said that about himself during Sneeze so... Perhaps he has learned his lesson. :D

Here's hoping. :)

[margroks]

CLark wasn't cleaning up the crime ridden slum there but his own mess, as he put it, the result of the virus Fine rleased and the rioting afterward. That's good. Clark should be more proactive. He's wasted too much time already.

[Dor el]

HalJordan, has there never been a situation, other than SV, where Superman does something that causes a negative ripple effect? Maybe, other versions of Superman didn't cause a disaster because they failed to be obedient to their father, but unless my memory is faulty (a very likely possibility) even on Lois and Clark there was a time or two when things turned out in a way other than was expected. And it was not a good thing.

I disagree with the opinion that Clark deserves little to no credit for the good he is doing. Yeah, he may be reacting to overwhelming guilt, but he is reacting in a positive way. He is not moping. He is not looking the other way. He is not blaming anyone else for the mess things are in. He is doing all that he can, right now, to make things right. And I like it.

As far as Metropolis and other areas in the world needing to be extricated, yes I agree that was the case. But I don't agree that Clark should have been held solely responsible for cleaning house at this point in his life. Not based on the storyline taken by TPTB and the 5 seasons demeanor. I'd would rather see this as Clark finally stepping up and realizing what a wonderful gift he can be to the human race. This experience just might do the trick. Along with some help from some of his future associates.

I agree that Clark had a big hand in creating the mess, but I feel that there were other people who played at least a small part in it. Namely Jor el, Lana, Lex, Zod. Jor el for speaking to Clark in cryptic, unclear ways. Lana and Lex for the help they gave Prof. Fine, their obscession with the black ship, and Lex's natural evilness which is exactly what Zod needed to inhabit and Brainiac took full advantage of that. Zod for just being a naughty boy. He spent all that time in the PZ and did he learn anything? Did he repent? Did he even try to play nicely? No. No. No.

I know what you're probably thinking and that is that if Clark had only......... none of the mess would've happened. Well, if any of the other players hd behaved differently, maybe none of the mess would have happened. There are several variables and if only one variable has been different, things might have turned out differently. It's too easy to blame Clark for everything everytime. That sounds like pulling a Lana to me.

I for one intend to cut Clark a break and give him a chance to be the person I know he will be.

[Kal-ed]

I agree with Dor-el, I dont like this version of Clark, but Zod and Sneeze have showed a diferent Clark, Im not ready to consider him on the right path but so far so good. Like Dor el sai, he is not brooding and whining cause he feels guitly, hes doing something about it, which is new, and no one pushed him to do it, so thats good too. Plus I think he is coming to better terms with his powers (the cloud moving at the end) and with Jor el, which is good.

Im not taking sides yet, but Im willing to keep my mind open.

[Ares]

he'll go back to his pansy self sooner or later - specially not that I see him still sad about lana.. Get over it.. for real

[All about Clark]

I agree with Dorel too. And in this case being proactive would be to kill a human being. I don't see this as a viable choice for Clark. I'm actually very disappointed that Jor-el would even suggest it. So for me, in this case, it had to be reactive.

And I do cut Clark alot of slack because he truly suffered for the choice of not killing.

[HalJordan4184]

I wouldnt call clarks trip to the phantom zone truly suffering. He was there, for a literal, hour at best. he got there, raya found him, they walked to the door, and that was that. All he learned, was that it would be bad if he lived there, and raya basically told him he couldn't if he wanted to anyway, so it's a moot point.

Also, Clark doing one good thing, does not suddenly make him proactive. Where do people get this idea that i said Clark wasn't doing something good. I said he's doing it for all of the wrong reasons, and it's something that potentially could have been avoided long ago, before Brainiac had even gotten to Earth, if Clark had done his season four quest without all the whining and moping he did then too. It takes more than Clark cleaning up his own mess, for me to consider him proactive. I'll consider him proactive, when he does everything within his power to prevent something, rather than waiting for the proverbial crap to hit the fan, and then grabbing a mop like everyone else, and just mopping up the most.

But don't get me wrong, as some poeple seem to be doing, it's good Clark is helping, it's just not a proactive move. Proactive literally means, before the action. This is a reactive move. There was a disaster, that Clark half heartedly tried to stop, going back to season four, and when he didn't, he's now reacting to the destruction Braniac and Zod caused.

And Dor-El, it is not the same thing if Superman, in all his powers, can't stop something or makes a mistake, versus Clark not doing anything, and then having a huge disaster happen, in which Clark himself admits if he'd listened ALL ALONG could have been prevented. I'm not talking about Clark killing anyone, that wouldn't have even had to have happened, if he'd done things the way Jor-El wanted in season four, and even sooner.

I won't cut Clark a break, because as a character, he doesn't get a break. He has more responsibility, and more accountability, simply because of who he is.

And yes, i do know other people have had a hand in creating the mess, but that's like saying Saddam Hussein is innocent, because other people actually did the killing in his country. Just because he didn't pullt he trigger, doesn't mean he's free of the consequences of his actions or non actions. Same with Clark. Changing one variable,a s has been said on the show, would have eliminated the problem. Not even going so far as to kill someone, as just listening to Jor-El for once.

[D.M.A.]

I say yes cause normally he would have tried to stay out of sight,the news reported that they were in the process of fixin things but it would take months.Clark tellin martha that he superspeeds at night tryin to fix things speeds up that process and allows the city to rebuild.So I agree,while yes ginnyfan he did tell chloe he wasn't a hero he remarks afterwards were understandable at the time(A hero doesn't put the world at risk on a daily basis).So I can live wit that but this is 2 episodes now that he's admitted he should have trust Jor-El,so that's also a good start.I do think he'll be totally proactive by the end of the season but wit GA comin along maybe we'll see a glimpse of it in each episode.

[Dor el]

Originally posted by HalJordan4184
I wouldnt call clarks trip to the phantom zone truly suffering. He was there, for a literal, hour at best. he got there, raya found him, they walked to the door, and that was that. All he learned, was that it would be bad if he lived there, and raya basically told him he couldn't if he wanted to anyway, so it's a moot point.

Also, Clark doing one good thing, does not suddenly make him proactive. Where do people get this idea that i said Clark wasn't doing something good. I said he's doing it for all of the wrong reasons, and it's something that potentially could have been avoided long ago, before Brainiac had even gotten to Earth, if Clark had done his season four quest without all the whining and moping he did then too. It takes more than Clark cleaning up his own mess, for me to consider him proactive. I'll consider him proactive, when he does everything within his power to prevent something, rather than waiting for the proverbial crap to hit the fan, and then grabbing a mop like everyone else, and just mopping up the most.

But don't get me wrong, as some poeple seem to be doing, it's good Clark is helping, it's just not a proactive move. Proactive literally means, before the action. This is a reactive move. There was a disaster, that Clark half heartedly tried to stop, going back to season four, and when he didn't, he's now reacting to the destruction Braniac and Zod caused.

And Dor-El, it is not the same thing if Superman, in all his powers, can't stop something or makes a mistake, versus Clark not doing anything, and then having a huge disaster happen, in which Clark himself admits if he'd listened ALL ALONG could have been prevented. I'm not talking about Clark killing anyone, that wouldn't have even had to have happened, if he'd done things the way Jor-El wanted in season four, and even sooner.

I won't cut Clark a break, because as a character, he doesn't get a break. He has more responsibility, and more accountability, simply because of who he is.

And yes, i do know other people have had a hand in creating the mess, but that's like saying Saddam Hussein is innocent, because other people actually did the killing in his country. Just because he didn't pullt he trigger, doesn't mean he's free of the consequences of his actions or non actions. Same with Clark. Changing one variable,a s has been said on the show, would have eliminated the problem. Not even going so far as to kill someone, as just listening to Jor-El for once.

Hal, proactive means taking an initiative. Doing something before something happens sounds like "preactive" to me. Clark did take an initiative when he was working hard to try and help put things back in order. I will agree that the mess may have been averted if Clark had collected those idiot stones in season 4, but, again, I hold Jor el somewhat to blame because he was so stinking unclear about what to do, how to do it, and about the extreme consequences if Clark didn't get all of the stones. Someone as smart as Jor el is, should have realized that Clark wouldn't accept what he said at face value and do what he asked because he didn't understand it and didn't really trust Jor el. I think that when Jor el asked Clark to kill the vessel, that request only made Clark more untrusting and more confused about what role Jor el was trying to play in his life. Jor el apparently knew that Zod could be released from the PZ and that if that occurred, then the entire earth would be in dire straights. Did Jor el spell it out in no uncertain terms? No, he allowed a lack of clarity and uncertainity get the better of Clark and he could have prevented that with better communication.

Usually, one takes steps to prevent something they KNOW is about to or could happen. Clark only knew that Jor el told him there would be bad consequences if Clark did not listen and obey Jor el. I do not believe for a second that Clark had any idea of the terrible mess that would ensue. (How could anyone be expected to know that by not finding three pretty shiny rocks that the entire would be placed in absolute jeopardy? Never in a million years would that have crossed my mind. Not without some definite straight forward information.) Being well prepared is when hope you are ready for the unexpected good or bad. Clark was not well prepared and I hold Jor el responsible, to a large extent for that.

Regarding the Saddam metaphor, I don't recall saying that Clark is totally blameless. He did make mistakes. And those mistakes were very costly. But, he was not alone in those mistakes and I intend to spread the blame around where I think it belongs. As you said just because someone didn't pull the trigger, does not make them blameless. Clark, Jor el, Lex, Lana, Zod, etc. are to blame.

I feel quite certain that Clark, knowing what he knows now, would have listened to Jor el in season 4 if he had a chance to do it all over. But, in season 4, Clark didn't have the luxury of hindsight as he does now.

Again, I'd like to point out that Clark, for whatever reason, was not ready for Jor el's quest in season 4. Now, I think he is nearer to using his gifts in a positive way, if not there. I think his admission of guilt in the whole Zod fiasco and his urgent desisre to right as much as soon as he can indicates a new maturity and an acceptance of who he is and maybe he is even getting a hint of who he could be.

So, yes I will cut Clark some slack hoping and assuming that he is growing, in a good way, into the person he was meant to be.

[Son of Kal-El20]

I can't believe people are mad at him for helping to clean up the town. What do you want him to do? Nothing?

[sstray72]

I'm not so sure if he's being proactive yet, but he is definately becoming more mature. I am liking Clark a lot so far this season, and I hope he continues his progression.

[Dor el]

proactive: taking the initiative (as in a proactive approach to something); relating to or caused by previously learned behavior, habits, etc.

Using this definition, I think Clark is being proactive. Proactive doesn't mean never having done something wrong or less than ideal in the first place. I think it means taking the circumstances as they are now and reacting in a positive way. I think Clark is, in fact, reacting to the whole Zod/destruction/terror mess in a positive way. I believe that his proactive behavior now is not negated by what happened as a result of Clark's failure to do or not to do something in the past. He is relating his current behavior, perhaps, to his recent past (Zod mess). I believe he is still being proactive in terms of what he is doing to try and help put the world back in order.

[HalJordan4184]

That's not being proactive. Clark would be being proactive, if no one else was doing it, and he took the initiative first. But he didn't. Other people were helping before him.

And where do people keep getting im mad at Clark for helping. Read the posts. It's good he's helping, but it's far from being a huge leap forward in the right direction, and it's not putting him closer to Superman's status.

[Kal-ed]

I think for the first time he is being proactive as opossed to siting in his loft whining and brooding about how he screwed things up.

[Miss L]

Originally posted by All about Clark
I agree with Dorel too. And in this case being proactive would be to kill a human being. I don't see this as a viable choice for Clark. I'm actually very disappointed that Jor-el would even suggest it. So for me, in this case, it had to be reactive.

And I do cut Clark alot of slack because he truly suffered for the choice of not killing.

I agree with this statement. I don't think he's helping clean up Metropolis purely out of guilt, though. I believe he'd help even if he weren't involved. At least he's taking some responsibility for the "Dark Thursday" mess. He does, however, still have a long way to go.


...it is not the same thing if Superman, in all his powers, can't stop something or makes a mistake, versus Clark not doing anything, and then having a huge disaster happen, in which Clark himself admits if he'd listened ALL ALONG could have been prevented. I'm not talking about Clark killing anyone, that wouldn't have even had to have happened, if he'd done things the way Jor-El wanted in season four, and even sooner.

Frankly, in Season 4 Jor-El's clear communication skills were sorely lacking. And I don't really blame Clark for being wary. As it happened he ended up with the choice to either kill Lex, "the Vessel," or not, and he chose the higher road.

It still remains to be seen if Clark is changing in the proactive direction, but I'm encouraged that he is using his powers for something other than saving his immediate circle of friends/family in his efforts to clean up Metropolis.

[jimmyolsenblues]

I would love to see enjoy being more proactive. But he is cleaning up more out of guilt then duty.

Clark Needs a way to think about an alter ego.

[spideyfan]

I'm a huge fan of CK doing all he can to help so I will say that CK is turning proactive in his efforts to help the globe.

[Dor el]

Originally posted by jimmyolsenblues
I would love to see enjoy being more proactive. But he is cleaning up more out of guilt then duty.

Is it wrong to try and right wrongs out of guilt? Some of his motivation probably is guilt, but I think there is more to it. Doing good out of guilt does not make you not proactive. Seems like many wanted Clark to have been preemptive in the first place. Too late for that now. He must deal with the situation as it really is now.

The point is, for me, that he is taking the initiative to do something good for some one else. People he doesn't even know. I can not even imagine how this is not good, how this is not proactive on Clark's part, and exactly what folks expect Clark to do now.

[HalJordan4184]

Again, who here said this wasn't a good thing. We said it's however, motivated by the wrong reasons. Clark's not being proactive, and he's not preventing things still. He's still reacting to whatever situations happen to blow up first, rather than nipping them in the bud. Cops don't sit on the corner, and watch an assault in progress, turn into a murder before they get out and arrest somebody, but essentially, that's what Clarks been doing for the past couple years. Letting little things build up and escalate until it's too much too handle.

Also, none of his motivation should be guilt. That's not the character. And if Al/Miles are writing a totally different Superman as some people say, they should have just created a new character. You can't change a character so far, that he's not even motivated to do the same things for the same reasons, and still call it the same character with a twist.

[Dor el]

Perhaps posters did not say explicitly that Clark's helping clean up the Zod mess was not a good thing, but I get the feeling that some folks seem to think that because Clark is doing good out of guilt, that somehow diminishes the good or at least the motivation for doing good. Even if Clark is trying to fix things because he feels guilty, I do not believe that that blemishes either the good that he does or his motives. Redemption (recovering, to pay off,, to make amends, to atone for something, to restore favor) is a good thing thing. Even if the motive is guilt. In fact, seems like the motive for redemption is often guilt of some kind.

Why can guilt not be a part of his motivation and still allow for his actions to be accepted at an unconditionally good thing? Are you saying that Clark would not help out the world if he didn't feel guilty? I do not believe that he would sit back and do nothing even if he didn't feel guilty.

As far as character, how can you say that motivation due in part to guilt is not at least a small part of the character. I thought this was the first in depth exploration in to Clark's teens and early adulthood. Superman the adult character, I believe, has not been damaged. I realize that Superman does good because he is good and he wants good for everyone He lives by the motto truth, justice, the American way which I happen to believe implies that he embodies that which is good. It does not mean he never has negative feelings or that he never feels guilty. I think it just means that he is able to take what may be considered as negative feelings and turn them into something good. It takes a super man to be able to do that.

I believe that doing good because of a bit of guilt is not mutually exclusivve with being proactive.

[last man of krypton]

As I think about it, there was a hint of proactiveness in "Zod"; Clark tried to communicate with Jor-El while he safeguarded Raya's crystal. Any other time Clark's intentionally made a move to talk with Jor-El it's because something has already happened and he wants Jor-El to fix it, but in this case, it's likely Clark tried to talk to him to prevent something else from going wrong.

[pure3d2]

The problem is, he still sees himself as someone who needs to fit in, go to college, have a family, etc.

He doesn't see himself as a hero, yet. I think that Smallville is a show that is about his journey from "human" to Superman. Things are on track, give it some time.

[HalJordan4184]

Guilt inheritantly can't be pure goodness, because for guilt to exist, you have to do something wrong. You don't feel guilty when you do the right thing. Guilt is a motivator for redemption, but are we now saying redemption from the wrong path, is better than being on the right path.

I've seen this as being a current trend in society. We praise people for overcoming drug addictions, alcoholism, and reforming their lives in prison, and coming out changed. But at the same time, we place less value, on living a good life, without HAVING to reform yourself to be good. Superman, is the embodiment of the latter, not the former. It's a simple point.

Smallville isn't the first in depth look at Superman's teen and early years, because the show is the first to point out, this Clark Kent isn't Superman, and for some reason, is unbound then by Superman's morality and virtues. This Clark Kent is hardly representitve of truth, justice, and the american way. He's a lying hypocrite, he still feels he doesn't owe anything to anyone, but everyone owes something to him. Heck, even in Zod, and Sneeze, part of his motivation, is making sure no one finds out his link to Dark Thursday. That's the only reason he got involved in the entire plot of the episode, so that he could keep Lex from spilling the beans. the safety and concern of a fellow human being, even one he doesn't like, wasn't his priority. Making sure he could still be "normal" was.

The first in depth look at Clark's early years was Superboy, where an unsure of himself Clark Kent, went up against foes, using his powers, because he felt it was right to do so. Not because he felt guilty about them being there in the first place. In Byrne's man of steel, we also got a look at Clark's youth, and even more in the stories that followed. Clark was a mature beyond his years kid. This does not mean he was ready for tights and a cape at ten. Quite the opposite, as his powers came on, his world view changed. Like NORMAL people, he came to realize your life doesn't work out the way you want it to. It didn't take mutants created by meteor rocks trashing his town and killing people, or strange messagesfrom his birth father telling him to kill, and the world will be destroyed if he does nothing. It took him actually growing up. Something Smallville's Clark has done. Growing up is not something you learn to do, it's something that happens, through life. Experiences shape you, mold you. Clark in the comics, and such, was shaped by a relatively NORMAL childhood, free from the crap Smallville says was necessary for him to grow into the man he's supposed to be. He was free to become his own man, and he CHOSE his path in life. For all the talk of choosing Smallville does, they FORCE him at every point down that path. There is no choice for Clark, because he gets ultimatums, do what he should have been doing all along because it's the right thing and only he can do it, or watch the world end. And even then, Smallville's Clark has to think about it.

Basically my point is, guilt hasn't ever been a factor for Clark Kent before. It doesn't mesh with the character. In order for guilt to affect him, it means he's screwing up in his own mind to start with. And he's still feeling guilty about the same things all the time. He's not learning, and he's not changing, and one episode, is not proof he's somehow forever altered.

[Kal-ed]

Seriously Hal very good points, but still, in THIS version, in THIS incarnation in THIS Alternative Universe its a breath of fresh air to see THIS Clark doing something, even if its out of guilt. Normaly he would have gone to his loft and complaing and whine to anyone who came along about how it was his fault all this happened , and how terrible he feels and how he cant scape who he is and how much he yearns to be normal, but would have dont nothing about it, like when Brainiac almos killed his mother, after learning that he was alive why didnt he do something about it, at least now his guilt is making him do good things, as oposed to nothing.

I guess my point is, that although it is a sad fact, compared to previous experiences we have witnessed, helping rebuild Metropolis is a good thing.

[All about Clark]

Originally posted by HalJordan4184
Smallville isn't the first in depth look at Superman's teen and early years, because the show is the first to point out, this Clark Kent isn't Superman, and for some reason, is unbound then by Superman's morality and virtues. This Clark Kent is hardly representitve of truth, justice, and the american way. He's a lying hypocrite, he still feels he doesn't owe anything to anyone, but everyone owes something to him. Heck, even in Zod, and Sneeze, part of his motivation, is making sure no one finds out his link to Dark Thursday. That's the only reason he got involved in the entire plot of the episode, so that he could keep Lex from spilling the beans. the safety and concern of a fellow human being, even one he doesn't like, wasn't his priority. Making sure he could still be "normal" was.

I really don't agree with this. I will never buy that any Clark Kent doesn't resort to lying, it is necessary to keep his cover. And Clark Kent has always wanted a private life, nothing is different here. As for Dark Thursday, in doing the clean-up at night doesn't mean he can't be found out, but puts himself at risk of being found out at the same time he is helping others. And I do think SV Clark believes in truth, justice, and the american way, but that doesn't mean he has to go public with his abilities. I also will never believe SV Clark believes everyone owes him something, it really bothers me that this would be stated by anyone. Just because you don't like this Clark Kent, doesn't mean you should fabricate stuff.

[HalJordan4184]

So Clark doesnt think everyone owes him stuff, when he just blatantly barges in somewhere, demands the truth, and then gets mad when people dont just give it to him. That's pretty much been his entire relationship with Lex. Clark gets to tear him to shreds, pick on anything he wants, bug him about anything,a nd demand any information he wants, justbecause he's Clark, but if Lex asks why he survived an impossible situation, where every professional he's ever talked to said he should be dead, he's being to obsessive, and no one owes him that.

And most versions of Clark Kent don't resort to lying. Apparently lying, is simply not telling people you can fly. The comic Clark, doesn't lie through his teeth, even at points when he wouldn't have to, just so he can feel special. The comics Clark would sacrifice his secret and life, for a complete stranger. Smallville's Clark can't even be bothered to help, til after the proverbial bomb has gone off, and he's never been given any reason to want to change, because people laud him as the greatest thing since sliced bread, flaws and all. He points a huge mistake he made, and rather than agree, martha and jon used to just write it off, and say it's okay, doesn't matter. And that's still happening.

[Dor el]

Originally posted by HalJordan4184
Guilt inheritantly can't be pure goodness, because for guilt to exist, you have to do something wrong. You don't feel guilty when you do the right thing. Guilt is a motivator for redemption, but are we now saying redemption from the wrong path, is better than being on the right path.


Hal, my friend, I so do not agree with you on this. I know many cases when people feel guilty for no reason. I also know people who feel guilty for doing the right thing. Feeling guilty is a very personal and subjective feeling and no one can determine the cause, the extent, or experience of guilt but the individual who feels guilty. Redemption is redemption and it is usually a good thing. Better to turn from any wrong path, feel guilty, make things right, and move on rather than do something wrong or less than ideal, feel guilty, wallow in that guilt, not make things right, and move on. Clark is doing the best he can with a situation he may feel guilty about, but he is not whining, wallowing,and he is not turning away. He is helping put things back in order. He is taking an ititiative. He is being proactive now. What occurred before does not undermine or negate his proactivity now. Because a person may make a mistake or mistakes, does not preclude them from ever being proactive again.


Originally posted by HalJordan4184
I've seen this as being a current trend in society. We praise people for overcoming drug addictions, alcoholism, and reforming their lives in prison, and coming out changed. But at the same time, we place less value, on living a good life, without HAVING to reform yourself to be good. Superman, is the embodiment of the latter, not the former. It's a simple point.


Only one perfect person ever walked the earth. Everyone makes mistakes. Some mistakes are more costly than others, but it seems like a good thing to overcome mistakes and put one's life back together as best as is possible. Yes, it would be best if everyone lived a good life and never made mistakes to begin with, but I don't think human perfection is really realistic given human weaknesses. I place great value on "living a good life". I just think that because you make a mistake that doesn't mean there isn't room in life for good thereafter. Superman is the embodiment of good, but perfection???


Originally posted by HalJordan4184
Smallville isn't the first in depth look at Superman's teen and early years, because the show is the first to point out, this Clark Kent isn't Superman, and for some reason, is unbound then by Superman's morality and virtues. This Clark Kent is hardly representitve of truth, justice, and the american way. He's a lying hypocrite, he still feels he doesn't owe anything to anyone, but everyone owes something to him. Heck, even in Zod, and Sneeze, part of his motivation, is making sure no one finds out his link to Dark Thursday. That's the only reason he got involved in the entire plot of the episode, so that he could keep Lex from spilling the beans. the safety and concern of a fellow human being, even one he doesn't like, wasn't his priority. Making sure he could still be "normal" was.


I never watched Superboy. Can't speak to this. I have great respect for your Superman knowledge and will accept your facts as you present.


Originally posted by HalJordan4184
Basically my point is, guilt hasn't ever been a factor for Clark Kent before. It doesn't mesh with the character. In order for guilt to affect him, it means he's screwing up in his own mind to start with. And he's still feeling guilty about the same things all the time. He's not learning, and he's not changing, and one episode, is not proof he's somehow forever altered.

Sorry, I just don't see guilt as a completely bad thing from which one can never recover. Yes, it would've been better if Clark had prevented the whole Zod diaster. It truly would've been. There are so many extenuating circumstances around the whole deal, that I simply do not hold Clark alone responsible. Superpowers or not. Yes. Superman does have great powers, great intelligence, great compasssion, great propensity for doing good. But, he does not know everything. He doesn't have super psychic abilities. He could not have known the extent of trouble that would ensue if he failed to blindly do what Jor el bid him to do. Plus, since when does Clark/Superman blindly do things? SVClark really had no experience with Jor el except what Clark perceived as negative. Who is gonna blindly do what someone says when you believe that person may not be good? Now, I think Clark realizes that Jor el was trying to guide him to doing good and he has learned that well, I believe.

Yes, one episode does not an entire life change, but I do see indications that Clark is learning from his mistakes. I just hope hope he is able to assimilate relationship data and do it soon. SV Clark is an especially emotional creature. In my opinion, Clark is an emotional creature. He needs those emotions to propell him forward. However, he needs to get a firm grasp on his emotional self. I will grant you that.


Originally posted by All about Clark
I really don't agree with this. I will never buy that any Clark Kent doesn't resort to lying, it is necessary to keep his cover. And Clark Kent has always wanted a private life, nothing is different here. As for Dark Thursday, in doing the clean-up at night doesn't mean he can't be found out, but puts himself at risk of being found out at the same time he is helping others. And I do think SV Clark believes in truth, justice, and the american way, but that doesn't mean he has to go public with his abilities. I also will never believe SV Clark believes everyone owes him something, it really bothers me that this would be stated by anyone. Just because you don't like this Clark Kent, doesn't mean you should fabricate stuff. '

Yep. I think so too.

[Kryptonian-Ronin]

Fact is, the way these writers have written THIS Clark and all the other charcters, everything that has happend and is happening, is pretty much on par with the writing.

It may be disturbing at times for die-hard Superman fans to see their beloved hero look so bad so many times, but, for this day and age, where most wanna see Superman as "superhuman" then having human failings is just proper.

[1.21 gigawatts]

Originally posted by InLove_with_Chloe
I agree.
It's like AlMiles spent quite some time at this board, over the summer. One sentence can heal so much. I remember you and quite some others complaining about things like that.
See, it was worth it!
:)

If that's the case, maybe they'll see this...

You can't write anything decent worth sh!t! Stick with Herbie the Love Bug and Shanghai Noon. You've already destroyed Smallville.

[All about Clark]

Originally posted by Kryptonian-Ronin
It may be disturbing at times for die-hard Superman fans to see their beloved hero look so bad so many times, but, for this day and age, where most wanna see Superman as "superhuman" then having human failings is just proper.

My problem with the die-hard Superman fans thinking is that right now Clark only has his human flawed teachings and experiences to go by, plus combined with the desire to fit in and not be seen as different. I can see him greatly change when he learns from Jor-el, Jor-el will teach him the Kryptonian way to think of things. He would then have his human half working with his Kryptonian half. And he will be a much better man IMO.

[HalJordan4184]

But that's not Clark, nor Superman. Only in the movies, did Clark have to learn how to be Superman, from his dead father in an ice palace. The Kents mae Clark Superman, not Jor-El. Jor-El had little to no impact on Clark's life, because he was dead.

[All about Clark]

I agree that is the direction that SV is going to be more in line with the movies. I'm just stating from a practicality stand point that Clark in his desire to be normal and live a normal life and not be found out, he would act more human at this point in his life because of his upbringing. That it would take Jor-el to bring out the Kryptonian in Clark. Because even though it's there, he doesn't want it to appear to humans.

When he has his cover and is not afraid of being found out is when he will let his Kryptonian side become more prominent with the help of Jor-el's teachings.

[HalJordan4184]

He doesn't have a "Kryptonian side". He has a Clark Kent side. Jor-El should have no impact on Clark's decision to become Superman, and CLark certainly shouldn't have to train with Jor-El in the fortress of Solitude to become Superman. It's the Kent's that made CLark into who he's supposed to be, not Jor-El.

[Dor el]

Originally posted by HalJordan4184
He doesn't have a "Kryptonian side". He has a Clark Kent side. Jor-El should have no impact on Clark's decision to become Superman, and CLark certainly shouldn't have to train with Jor-El in the fortress of Solitude to become Superman. It's the Kent's that made CLark into who he's supposed to be, not Jor-El.

Finally! We agree on something.

[All about Clark]

I had never said that Jor-el would be a deciding factor in Clark becoming Superman. I had said that Clark needs his training from Jor-el to understand the devices and such that non-humans can use against him. Jor-el and only Jor-el can help him in the area of Kryptonian science/technology and it's devices. Deciding to be Superman and surviving as Superman are two different things. That's why he still needs Jor-el. And just by training with Jor-el, he will be forced to think more like a Kryptonian. It will influence him just like the Kents have influenced him. And I still think it's that combination that will make him a better man. JMO

[HalJordan4184]

But he never had that whe n he became superman. Outside of Superman the movie that is. No one trained him in technology, alien or otherwise. YOu know why, he's INVULNERABLE. Even alien things can't hurt him. It's not like Smallville where a nuke from earth won't faze him, but alien dasies can kill him.

[Rose etta]

1.21 gigawatts posted


You can't write anything decent worth sh!t! Stick with Herbie the Love Bug and Shanghai Noon. You've already destroyed Smallville.

*sniff* Yeah, they're pretty cheezy n lame now, so much of the time.

[All about Clark]

Originally posted by HalJordan4184
But he never had that whe n he became superman. Outside of Superman the movie that is. No one trained him in technology, alien or otherwise. YOu know why, he's INVULNERABLE. Even alien things can't hurt him. It's not like Smallville where a nuke from earth won't faze him, but alien dasies can kill him.

I know we can argue this all day, but we come from different perspectives, mine from the movies and LnC and SV, you from the comics. And I never liked that LnC didn't involve some Kryptonian training and ice fortress.

But I prefer the version where he needs Jor-el, it just makes sense that he would need someone of Kryptonian descent to help him figure things out that are outside of the human realm. Obviously, he wouldn't need Jor-el if he never faced an alien being.

But I will agree with you that I did not like that he was so vulnerable to the plant lady.

[HalJordan4184]

No, I come from the mythos as a whole, Lois and Clark, the movies, the comics, the past TV shows, all of that. Why does he need a dead father to train him against aliens? Jor-El had no inkling of what Clark would become on Earth. He sent him here so he'd have a chance to survive, not to save us. That's a purely Superman the movie, and sometimes SMallville notion. Everywhere else, TV, comics, other movies, cartoons, whatever, his destiny has been his to choose. His dead father didn't lay it out for him.

And he never had an ice palace outside the movies. He had an actual fortress.

[All about Clark]

Because I never believed that Jor-el sent Kal-el only to survive. The whole idea of the PZ indicates that Krypton saw themselves as the protectors that could remove life-threatening criminals from societies. I have always believed that Jor-el wanted Clark to act as protector once Krypton was gone. And he can't do that outside of Earth without Jor-el.

And I like you also believe that Clark's destiny is his to choose. That's why SV Jor-el was such an ass early on. Jor-el should have stuck to teaching Clark, not forcing a destiny on him IMO. And by the way, my post did say fortress.

[HalJordan4184]

YOu said ice fortress, he never had an ice fortress. He had an actual honest to god fortress, made of metal, rock, and all of that, that he built with his bare hands, or the eradicator built.

But Jor-El didn't send Clark here to protect. The phantom zone wasn't used to protect people, it was used because Krypton had no death penalty, and the PZ was deemed a fate worse than death.

The fact you believe Jor-El wanted this, doesn't mean this is how it's been presented. Only in the movies did Jor-El express any desire for how his son lived. He never provided him training or tutelage in anything. Clark was on his own.

[All about Clark]

Well we obviously have different perspectives, and probably there is no one right answer. I prefer to believe what I do and you have the same right. Nothing against it. But I think we've exhausted our argument. I really don't have much to add.

[Mrs Kent]

Originally posted by Dor el
Perhaps posters did not say explicitly that Clark's helping clean up the Zod mess was not a good thing, but I get the feeling that some folks seem to think that because Clark is doing good out of guilt, that somehow diminishes the good or at least the motivation for doing good. Even if Clark is trying to fix things because he feels guilty, I do not believe that that blemishes either the good that he does or his motives. Redemption (recovering, to pay off,, to make amends, to atone for something, to restore favor) is a good thing thing. Even if the motive is guilt. In fact, seems like the motive for redemption is often guilt of some kind.

Why can guilt not be a part of his motivation and still allow for his actions to be accepted at an unconditionally good thing? Are you saying that Clark would not help out the world if he didn't feel guilty? I do not believe that he would sit back and do nothing even if he didn't feel guilty.

As far as character, how can you say that motivation due in part to guilt is not at least a small part of the character. I thought this was the first in depth exploration in to Clark's teens and early adulthood. Superman the adult character, I believe, has not been damaged. I realize that Superman does good because he is good and he wants good for everyone He lives by the motto truth, justice, the American way which I happen to believe implies that he embodies that which is good. It does not mean he never has negative feelings or that he never feels guilty. I think it just means that he is able to take what may be considered as negative feelings and turn them into something good. It takes a super man to be able to do that.

I believe that doing good because of a bit of guilt is not mutually exclusivve with being proactive.

:) Well said Dor el, I totally agree with you.

[Carnagefan88]

Originally posted by Nerial
This seems to be the biggest complaint from fans--Clark is not proactive enough in his heroic acts.

Seeing him exhausted from trying to clean up Metropolis has me thinking that maybe, he's starting to be better at the hero act.

At the same time, he was reluctant to save Lex.

So, what do you think? Will Clark be more proactive this time around, or go back to his angsty ways?

What does proactive mean?

[Kryptonian Boy]

This was just one very small step toward him becoming Superman so it doesn't really deserve consideration. He needs to start taking responsibility more often & stop acting like a little girl. Whenever his help is needed, he needs to lend that extra hand, especially since he rarely depletes his stamina by doing anything.

[Chloe_is_my_Hero]

Proactive,reactive,proavtive,reactive,proactive,re active,proactive,reactive.....

It the perpetual CK yo-yo!!!