Why I Lost Interest Altogether

[Terrestrial]

I watched the A&E special last night on Superman and one of the things that leapt from the screen was Singer's comment about how important it was to stick to what the character is all about.

Smallville doesn't cut it in my opinion because after the Second Season, I believe that M&G lost sight of the whole premise of who Clark is, what he aspires to and how he will become Superman.

The depicted CK is all over the map. He is HORRIBLY conflicted about his heritage. In fact, I would daresay he despises all things Kryptonian given the depiction of his father. I personally am not sure what was worse to do to poor Clark. Give him a Jor-El through the ship that is cold, calculating and abusive, or a Jor-El who possesses Lionel and tells his son that he loves him when we are all looking at Lionel delivering the "fireside" chats to his son.

This CK has experienced parental abuse from his biological father, drug abuse through Kryptonite (voluntarily to boot, which saddened me), has engaged in criminal activity and so forth. And every year, he runs from his problems and learns of the horrendous ramifications of his actions, and yet continues to run into the same Electric Fence repeatedly. And to make matters worse, he is literally forced into situations by Jor-El, as if he is not capable of making his own moral decisions or if all of his decisions lack good judgment. I cannot even imagine what that would do to your psyche with all the guilt, frustration and anguish that builds from it.

At least Peter Parker can take SOME solace in the fact that he wasn't the one who actually killed his Uncle Ben. It was his passivity and failure to act that led to the event. In contrast, I don't know how CK could live with himself for literally creating a chain of events that basically led to the death of his father. Events he directly caused and could have prevented.

At the same time, M&G have thrown at us 18 billion kinds of Kryptonite, and an extremely warped mythos that ties in Magic of all things to the plotline.

The only parallel I am aware of to Smallville is X-Files, particularly the laugh riot when Mulder tries to actually explain the whole alien thing in the last season and Chris Carter is forced to put all of his convoluted theories together. The oil, the bees, the clones, the whole thing. If it wasn't so sad it would have been funny.

This show had amazing potential. I still remember the Chris Reeve episode and how wonderful it was. The discovery of his alien heritage and all that goes along with it. That was where it was at for me. Even the Fortress had something going for it, although it seems like CK has learned nothing but despite for that place as well given all the Jor-El/Braniac antics there.

In conclusion, IMHO, this Clark would need years of therapy just to handle adult life, let alone to become a semblance of the Superman we know. As he exists, he is too troubled, conflicted and warped to be anything but a flawed version of the Man of Steel.

[o-joe]

You raise some interesting points. I think part of what the creative team behind Smallville has gone for is their own interpretation of the early Superman mythos. They're looking at the story in the sense of what happens to Kal-El, in detail, during his development years. Also, they had to fill in years and years of episodes. Have some of them been pointless in regards to the main plotlines? Sure.

I think that, for the most part, the story of young Kal-El is glossed over attempts to hurry up and get to Supes in the suit. This series makes the effort to focus solely on those years. So think about it; what does happen to someone who grows up with these amazing abilities and this sense of responsibility? Does he slip every once in a while? Does he succumb to moments of weakness and say, "To hell with it!" from time to time? For all intents and purposes, Clark has always been depicted as about as close to a human as a super-powered being can be. Therefore, growing up as a teenager, he's going to go through certain things that a teenager goes through. He's going to long after the girl. He's going to shirk responsibility, he's going to try to escape his pains by any means necessary. Basically, he's going to make huge mistakes. Sometimes two or three times over. I think we can all relate to that, right?

However, Clark has always come back around to his true nature, to the man Martha and Johnathan can be proud to call son. I've personally liked the idea and execution of a more psychologically realistic telling of the true origin story.

[Timester]

Originally posted by o-joe
You raise some interesting points. I think part of what the creative team behind Smallville has gone for is their own interpretation of the early Superman mythos. They're looking at the story in the sense of what happens to Kal-El, in detail, during his development years. Also, they had to fill in years and years of episodes. Have some of them been pointless in regards to the main plotlines? Sure.

I think that, for the most part, the story of young Kal-El is glossed over attempts to hurry up and get to Supes in the suit. This series makes the effort to focus solely on those years. So think about it; what does happen to someone who grows up with these amazing abilities and this sense of responsibility? Does he slip every once in a while? Does he succumb to moments of weakness and say, "To hell with it!" from time to time? For all intents and purposes, Clark has always been depicted as about as close to a human as a super-powered being can be. Therefore, growing up as a teenager, he's going to go through certain things that a teenager goes through. He's going to long after the girl. He's going to shirk responsibility, he's going to try to escape his pains by any means necessary. Basically, he's going to make huge mistakes. Sometimes two or three times over. I think we can all relate to that, right?

However, Clark has always come back around to his true nature, to the man Martha and Johnathan can be proud to call son. I've personally liked the idea and execution of a more psychologically realistic telling of the true origin story.

The problem is that destroys completely the character. Clark Kent is not some "other-superhero". What they are showing to us is not Clark Kent, but a kid that is called "Clark Kent". There is no way he can be the Superman in future. No way... :\

[SteveS]

Terrestrial, I enjoyed your comments as one who has previously noted the great potential that this show had yet failed to achieve.

Last night I saw again how ignorant Miller & Gough were of the Superman story when they did not even know of Annette O'Toole ever playing the part of Lana Lang. Incredible for people who are TPTb and that live in the internet age. (Whether these two or Singer read or never read comics is somewhat irrelevant to me as they were going for video versions)

It appears to me, that M&G had an idea for a TV show for adolescents and little beyond that in terms of conception, certainly not a clear cut picture of "what is character all about" a la Singer. As a result of little or not conception of what the character is about, Jor-el, etc. and using a variety of writers switching off who would inherently be somewhat undirected since TPTB were unclear, we have had a hodge-podge of conflicting and inferior episodes.

Too bad, Superman has a huge fan base of fans from a variety of mediums for generations. Last night's special said that 8 million watched the premiere of Smallville. I don't really look too much at the various ratings, but I would bet the viewership is strictly a fraction of the original and potential number of viewers.

Whether or not I like this character or that, in the end, it is strictly Miller & Gough who bear ultimate responsibility for the mediocrity of Smallville. Using old TV series as a guide, had these two had the vision of Babylon 5's creator, this show should have been huge and historic. As it is, it is going to be dependent upon Singer's vision and success (I am confident) to derive additional interest in Smallville.

Wish that I could believe that Miller & Gough had the talent to pull off the last year(s) on a level of quality that Superman deserves.

[MBCorp]

Originally posted by Terrestrial
I watched the A&E special last night on Superman and one of the things that leapt from the screen was Singer's comment about how important it was to stick to what the character is all about.

Smallville doesn't cut it in my opinion because after the Second Season, I believe that M&G lost sight of the whole premise of who Clark is, what he aspires to and how he will become Superman.

The depicted CK is all over the map. He is HORRIBLY conflicted about his heritage. In fact, I would daresay he despises all things Kryptonian given the depiction of his father. I personally am not sure what was worse to do to poor Clark. Give him a Jor-El through the ship that is cold, calculating and abusive, or a Jor-El who possesses Lionel and tells his son that he loves him when we are all looking at Lionel delivering the "fireside" chats to his son.

This CK has experienced parental abuse from his biological father, drug abuse through Kryptonite (voluntarily to boot, which saddened me), has engaged in criminal activity and so forth. And every year, he runs from his problems and learns of the horrendous ramifications of his actions, and yet continues to run into the same Electric Fence repeatedly. And to make matters worse, he is literally forced into situations by Jor-El, as if he is not capable of making his own moral decisions or if all of his decisions lack good judgment. I cannot even imagine what that would do to your psyche with all the guilt, frustration and anguish that builds from it.

At least Peter Parker can take SOME solace in the fact that he wasn't the one who actually killed his Uncle Ben. It was his passivity and failure to act that led to the event. In contrast, I don't know how CK could live with himself for literally creating a chain of events that basically led to the death of his father. Events he directly caused and could have prevented.

At the same time, M&G have thrown at us 18 billion kinds of Kryptonite, and an extremely warped mythos that ties in Magic of all things to the plotline.

The only parallel I am aware of to Smallville is X-Files, particularly the laugh riot when Mulder tries to actually explain the whole alien thing in the last season and Chris Carter is forced to put all of his convoluted theories together. The oil, the bees, the clones, the whole thing. If it wasn't so sad it would have been funny.

This show had amazing potential. I still remember the Chris Reeve episode and how wonderful it was. The discovery of his alien heritage and all that goes along with it. That was where it was at for me. Even the Fortress had something going for it, although it seems like CK has learned nothing but despite for that place as well given all the Jor-El/Braniac antics there.

In conclusion, IMHO, this Clark would need years of therapy just to handle adult life, let alone to become a semblance of the Superman we know. As he exists, he is too troubled, conflicted and warped to be anything but a flawed version of the Man of Steel.

Good post. I had the very same thought concerning Singer's remark.


Last night I saw again how ignorant Miller & Gough were of the Superman story when they did not even know of Annette O'Toole ever playing the part of Lana Lang.

I didn't see the part where they said that and I'm glad I didn't. How could they not know that AOT played Lana Lang? I never really figured them as being big comic book fans but I at least thought that they were fans of the movies.

[Terrestrial]

Thanks for the feedback.

I don't think I would have bothered to post if it wasn't for the A&E special, even if it is motivated by the upcoming movie.

In the end, I think Warner Brothers is deathly afraid that if it doesn't somehow "reinvent" its comic book properties, then they will just die on the vine.

Batman Begins was the first WB film since Donner's Superman where I felt as though they captured the essence of a comic book hero in a way that didn't feel like reinvention. I have grave doubts about Superman Returns already, particularly in hearing that Singer cut from the movie a critical development scene of Kal El returning to a burned out Krypton, perhaps to consider his origins. A single mom Lois Lane with a fiancee doesn't really do much for me either. But suit to taste.

In any event, where Superman goes in the future is anyone's guess. I truly hope that WB remembers that the magic in Superman is really in holding sacred the history and the origin of this wonderful icon.

[FreakyDroid]

I agree with all of you and what you said. I also understand why M&G are taking his development down this route. Not only Clark's but also Lex's and Lois's too. They are using too much irony in their development, in other words, they're fighting their own destinies. I don't like the way they are doing this, but I do understand why is that. They have to present the characters with some sort of struggle so that they can extend the life of the show for longer period. If they start accepting their destinies, the show will end pretty soon.

However, I do agre with all of you saying that M&G lost direction along the way, and what seemed to be natural progression during S1-S3, now its becoming completely ridicilous. In a way this is sad for the new generations of Superman fans, because they're seeing the biggest hero in a whole different light: blatantly stupid and hung up on girls with long legs and pretty faces. Cheap, very cheap.

[Watching Smallville]

Originally posted by Terrestrial
I watched the A&E special last night on Superman and one of the things that leapt from the screen was Singer's comment about how important it was to stick to what the character is all about.

....

This show had amazing potential. I still remember the Chris Reeve episode and how wonderful it was. The discovery of his alien heritage and all that goes along with it. That was where it was at for me. For me, too. I actually winced when I heard what Singer said about Superman because it just underscored how badly SV has missed the mark since the end of Season 2. I'm a big fan of Season 3, but hearing those comments, I realized I was really a fan of the drama in that season, rather than the way it revealed the character of Superman. SV, sadly, is a show of lost potential. It started out as a wonderful exploration of Superman, but was taken over by a depressing interpretation of the mythos..

Great post. I agree with you.

[kal-el1513]

Dude, al and milles said that clark is superman because of what his earth parents have taught him, not because of his kryptonian origin. I myself think clark is showing that he has many traits already that he will need as the man of steel. He goes into life and death decisions everyday and comes out the winner. Just going in and stopping a bad guy shows he will become superman easily. Plus, and please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! remenber, this show is about clarks learning experience and how he grows into the man of steel, that is why this show is called smallville!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! not superboy or superman!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! this show is about his learning experiences!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! how many teengers today act like they will when they are full grown adults. what i am trying ot say is that there is nothing wrong with clark wright know, he represents everything good and that this is not a show abot superman, but about smallville!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I also cant believe what some people are saying about how this show lost potential, it still has 100% potential! If you dont like or are dissapointed then dont watch it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Watching Smallville]

Originally posted by Terrestrial
I watched the A&E special last night on Superman and one of the things that leapt from the screen was Singer's comment about how important it was to stick to what the character is all about. Apart from how the comments reflect on SV, they really made me look forward to the movie -- more than I had been.

[HalJordan4184]

kal-el1513, that's the problem. It's a common thing many people make in regards to Superman, and Clark. They aren't two different people. You can't say Clark Kent isn't Superman yet, so therefore anything he does doesn't really underscore Superman. Superman isn't a seperate entity, he's the same man. Superman, is driven by the past experiences of Clark, and likewise, Clark, can't be a vastly different person than Superman. While this Clark has on occasion demonstrated traits inline with the future man of steel, he's also demonstrated, on a much more frequent occasion, traits Superman finds dispicable, and what he sees as some of humanities biggest problems.

Superman is more than a guy who saves people. He's the true inspiration for every person, including other super heroes. It's not because he had a similar upbringing, rather the opposite, he had the most unique, yet at the same time most human experience out of all of his future colleagues. He lived a quiet, drama free, tragedy free existance, and was the most normal out of everyone. Even with all his powers and abilities, Clark Kent fit in better than anyone, and was a better example of everything RIGHT in the world.

Note, I'm not saying Clark can't make mistakes, but wha tptb have failed to realize is that Clark has a certain limited range of severity in the mistakes, and types of mistakes he can make. Clark can stand by and watch as someone drinks, and drives, and then they get in the accident, but something like red, where in essence Clark is the one doing the drinking and driving, is just wrong. You get what I'm saying. Superman, and by extension Clark, is someone who has learned more from watching other people do the wrong thing, than he ever did doing the wrong thing himself. It's part of his character. He's so careful because of his powers, he's afraid to make mistakes, and heavily considers all of his actions. Smallville, well, Clark on Smallville, might as well just kill everyone and be done with it. The first big disaster, he's gonna cave with all the pressure that would bring.

[Black Man of Steel]

That A&E special on Superman was the best thing ever... that's a must have for anyone collection.

[MBCorp]

Originally posted by Watching Smallville
SV, sadly, is a show of lost potential. It started out as a wonderful exploration of Superman, but was taken over by a depressing interpretation of the mythos..

Couldn't have said it better myself. "Depressing interpretation of the mythos" is a good description of one of the big problems of SV.

I get the feeling that Al&Miles think that by making the characters angsty and emo and whiney they are in a way making them more "deep" and "realistic" than their comic book and movie counterparts. I totally get this vibe from Al&Miles that they are extremely contemptous of the comic books and think they are campy and geeky and that SV is a way of making Superman hip and realistic by making the characters angst and whine alot.

[kal-el1513]

Hal Jordan 4184 you are right. they are the same person, i never really thouth that alot of people see them as one person. i really dont for some reason at least not yet. on the show i dont see him as superman, i see him as clark kent. i apologize if i was kinda harsh. the point i guess i am trying to make is that i dont really see anything wrong with clark and the characters, which is the main topic of this thread. But hey, that is Just my opinion. Everyone is entitled to theres

[Nospam]

Originally posted by MBCorp
Couldn't have said it better myself. "Depressing interpretation of the mythos" is a good description of one of the big problems of SV.

I get the feeling that Al&Miles think that by making the characters angsty and emo and whiney they are in a way making them more "deep" and "realistic" than their comic book and movie counterparts. I totally get this vibe from Al&Miles that they are extremely contemptous of the comic books and think they are campy and geeky and that SV is a way of making Superman hip and realistic by making the characters angst and whine alot.

Were forgetting about the New York Times interview with Al and Miles from May 20th that spoke volumes about the direction the show took from the very beginning, especially Al's ending statement:


And how will it end? "Badly!" Mr. Gough said cheerfully. "It's a tragedy — he doesn't end up with Lana, and he and Lex are mortal enemies. How is that good?"

Right from the horse's mouth. That about sums up what's wrong with the show: they think it's a tragedy that Clark has to end an adolescent romance and grow into an adult. Oh, and Lex becomes evil. OK, Lex's growth to evil on Smallville is tragic considering that Clark and Jonathan are in many ways responsible for that happening, but I've never viewed Superman as a tragedy. Superman has always been about hope, and justice.

AlMiles view on Clark and Superman has been warped from the very start of the show, and it's a wonder we have any episodes at all to be proud of. I have to echo MBCorp's observations here: it seems that TPTB are embarrassed by the comic book connotations of Smallville and have worked hard and creating a teen drama ala Dawson's Creek rather than a compelling adult TV show.

There is still a chance this show can be redeemed in the last two seasons, but AlMiles are going to have abandon this assinine idea that Clark becoming Superman is a tragedy.

[1.21 gigawatts]

I do think that Smallville has a lot of problems. I think that Smallville has missed the mark since S3. But I stick with it because I remember being five years old and seeing the man in blue for the first time.

[Watching Smallville]

Originally posted by Nospam
Right from the horse's mouth. That about sums up what's wrong with the show: they think it's a tragedy that Clark has to end an adolescent romance and grow into an adult. Oh, and Lex becomes evil. OK, Lex's growth to evil on Smallville is tragic considering that Clark and Jonathan are in many ways responsible for that happening, but I've never viewed Superman as a tragedy. It is tragic that Lex had potential to go in two directions and chose the destructive path. But Jonathan and Clark wanting to keep their business to themselves, and even Jonathan not wanted to take Lex under his wing, are not the cause of Lex's downfall. Lex is his own cause. That's the tragedy. His choice is the tragedy.

Or would have been. Season 6, apparently, is going to tinker with that aspect of the mythos as well.

If Al/Miles wanted to play up that aspect of the Clark/Lex friendship, I'd be all for that, but they seemed to have dropped it after season 3.

And even if they wanted to show us why Clark and Lana don't work out in a reasonable way, instead of what they've done this season, it would be ok w me. That's kinda tragic, in a secondary kind of way.

And even if they want to tell the story of Clark's lost culture as being tragic -- ok. That's got some tragic elements.

But, it's the fact that they're determined to destroy the "Shining Example" aspect of Clark's character. That's the problem. And at the same time they have other people react to Clark as if he is that shining example. A little confusing. The only people who don't react to him that way are Lex and Lana, and they've seen enough of this Clark to be justified in their skepticism.

This documentary really got me thinking differently about SV.

[bluegayle]

I know we all want him to be the super-dude at 19 years old...but you have to remember that the traditional story that we know as depicted in the original movies and Lois and Clark TV show, depict that Clark is Superman anywhere from age 25-30.

The ultimate learning that he takes part in to learn about himself and the world hasn't even happened yet in Smallville. Due to his easy travelling ability, he could easily spend some maturing years going around the world helping people and learning about things.

While I would like a little bit of Superman to be in Clark now, I dont agree that he is the Superman now. He still needs some growing up, and yes there are some bad decisions he made but I think this Smallville, with the meteor freaks and the domineering Jor-El, have made Clark into something of a paranoid hero instead of someone like Bart who embraces his abilities.

[Timester]

Originally posted by bluegayle
I know we all want him to be the super-dude at 19 years old...but you have to remember that the traditional story that we know as depicted in the original movies and Lois and Clark TV show, depict that Clark is Superman anywhere from age 25-30.

The ultimate learning that he takes part in to learn about himself and the world hasn't even happened yet in Smallville. Due to his easy travelling ability, he could easily spend some maturing years going around the world helping people and learning about things.

While I would like a little bit of Superman to be in Clark now, I dont agree that he is the Superman now. He still needs some growing up, and yes there are some bad decisions he made but I think this Smallville, with the meteor freaks and the domineering Jor-El, have made Clark into something of a paranoid hero instead of someone like Bart who embraces his abilities.

That the mistake, Clark isn't the Superman, but yes Superman is the Clark Kent. Everything that he believes come from Clark, the naive alien farmboy raised by the Kents. AlMiles don't understand this and are making Clark something that he is not, something with a story even worst than Peter Parker.

[HalJordan4184]

We don't want him to be in the tights and cape now, what we want is someone we can see, willingly putting on those tights and that cape laters on. We aren't getting that. We're getting, as you said, a paranoid reluctant hero, who would rather not do anything, and deny his own existance.

He doesn't have to be all, "I'm here to fight for truth, justice and the american way", but he does have to at least appear to believe in those things.

And he's at the point where he should be on that learning experience. But he's not, because according to Al/Miles, that won't actually happen, til the finale. According to their own words, Smallville and Superman don't synch up storywise, until the end. And at that point, it's too late. Even if i manage to get a square peg ina round hole, it still doesn't fit.

[Summers]

Ironcially according to AlMiles POV and marketing they think Clark has matured, and shows The Man of Steel qualities :\.

[love_smallville]

I wish I could put into words as well as everyone else, but I will try.

I know Clark and Superman are one in the same-in time-but not at this time. I look forward to the day when TPTB decide to give Clark more backbone and confidence. What is it going to take for them to do this? I adore Clark and everything "about" him, not necessarily what they have done "with" him.

When is he going to believe in himself, his destiny, and what he was sent to Earth for? Who or what is going to shape this (you would think between his friendship with Lex deteriorating, death of Jonathan and relationship with Lana ending this would have begun) Not in miniscule steps, but obvious moments where he isn't always running to Chloe for answers?

This of course, is just IMHO :)

[Watching Smallville]

Originally posted by bluegayle
While I would like a little bit of Superman to be in Clark now, I dont agree that he is the Superman now. He still needs some growing up, and yes there are some bad decisions he made but I think this Smallville, with the meteor freaks and the domineering Jor-El, have made Clark into something of a paranoid hero instead of someone like Bart who embraces his abilities. I understand what you're saying, but I'm not looking for Clark to be Superman. I'm looking for Clark to be the Clark Kent he was in Season 1 and Season 2 -- a very principled, confused, young man doing his best to understand his origins and to help people wherever he can.

I feel like I've had a perspective tweak since watching the documentary. I don't think Clark being a teen explains his portrayal on this show. I think Al/Miles must have thought that their original Clark was boring and needed some spicing up. That's their right. But to me they lost something when they went that route.

P.S. Nice post, love_smallville.

[Timester]

Originally posted by love_smallville
I know Clark and Superman are one in the same-in time-but not at this time. I look forward to the day when TPTB decide to give Clark more backbone and confidence. What is it going to take for them to do this? I adore Clark and everything "about" him, not necessarily what they have done "with" him.

In the comics, he left Smallville at 17, because he felt that the powers he was blessed (yes, a bless, not a curse) could actually change the world, by saving people and give them hope. SV Clark? He teaches little kids to be a liar, hypocrite, emo whinner that only think about a girl... :\

So, you are right one thing, "not at this time". Yes, he isn't Superman at this time, nor is Clark Kent...


Originally posted by Watching Smallville
I understand what you're saying, but I'm not looking for Clark to be Superman. I'm looking for Clark to be the Clark Kent he was in Season 1 and Season 2 -- a very principled, confused, young man doing his best to understand his origins and to help people wherever he can.

Exactly. He was more of Clark Kent than he is right now.

[MBCorp]

Originally posted by HalJordan4184
We don't want him to be in the tights and cape now, what we want is someone we can see, willingly putting on those tights and that cape laters on. We aren't getting that. We're getting, as you said, a paranoid reluctant hero, who would rather not do anything, and deny his own existance.

He doesn't have to be all, "I'm here to fight for truth, justice and the american way", but he does have to at least appear to believe in those things.

And he's at the point where he should be on that learning experience. But he's not, because according to Al/Miles, that won't actually happen, til the finale. According to their own words, Smallville and Superman don't synch up storywise, until the end. And at that point, it's too late. Even if i manage to get a square peg ina round hole, it still doesn't fit.

WORD.

I have never understood why they must make Clark into an angsty, reluctant superhero who's powers are a burden to him. I have a really bad feeling that the last SV scene in the series finale is going to be sad and tragic and angsty.

[mobiusklein]

I think it's obvious that AlMiles don't understand the concept of superheroism and sometimes I seriously wonder about their concept of morality and fairness.

[Terrestrial]

It has felt from the beginning like an Elseworlds Superman or something.

There is something so remarkably pure and elemental about Superman. It really is an ideal. That is the irony. When you tarnish the ideal, you make it impossible to reach it.

If there is a tragedy to SV, it lies with this simple, undeniable fact: M&G have taken away from this Clark Kent the ability to become Superman.

It really DOES matter who wears the tights.

When I was a little boy, I wanted to be the boy in Kansas who became Superman. The one from the Richard Donner movie who learned to embrace both his human and alien heritage with a remarkably kind set of parents on both sides. It molded him into a certain way of being that this CK is deprived of.

Being a modern CK does NOT mean losing the ideal of what Superman represents.

But these concepts are lost on M&G.

[goldylocks_k]

I hate the way that everyone thinks of JK's death as Clark's fault. Did he know that Jor-El was going to take his powers away? No. Did he know that someone's life would be exchanged for his? No. Did he shoot himself which led to his death? NO!!!

He left the FOS to save Chloe. If he had stayed, then Chloe would have died. Plus, I'm sure he wanted to get back to Smallville to see if his family and friends were ok. That's how the whole thing started.

He didn't go back to the FOS because he saw Lana was hurt. He stayed behind to save her. He didn't know what the consequences would be, how could he? If you saw someone hurt, would you just leave them there?

And when his powers were taken away, maybe he could've gone to the FOS to ask Jor-El what had happened, but he still would have gotten shot by that guy. And he only got shot because he was helping Chloe!! What could Clark have done to stop all this happening? NOTHING!! There is a chance that, had Clark returned to the FOS, his powers would have been restored. But all he has wanted all his life is to be normal, and now he finally was. He didn't know that he'd get shot, how could he? If you got something that you'd wanted all your life, wouldn't you keep it? I think people are WAY too hard on Clark.

I think the blame shouldn't be on Clark. If it's anyones fault, it's Jor-El's. But he only brought back Clark for the world's sake. I think it sucks that people blame Clark. All he was doing was help people.

[foldinglaundry]

I think that SV Clark still has the potential to become Superman.

People learn from their mistakes, and he has made alot of them, so I think it will help him become who he is.

He still needs to finish his training in the FOS. That is what will make him finally be Superman.

Al/Miles is showing us that Superman was not born Superman, but that it was a journey.

[HalJordan4184]

That's nthe problem, he's not made into Superman, by sitting in the fortress of solitude. He wasn't trained to be it by some dead alien father he never knew.

There is a limit to the mistakes he can make. They've passed that, and then some. Clark Kent on Smallville is a drug addicted bank robber. That's something Superman can't and shouldn't be. He's not becoming a better Superman, he's becoming the biggest hypocrite in the world. He doesn't have to pay for breaking the law like that, but everyone else does?

And goldylocks_k, it is Clark's fault. He was warned of dire consequenses. Did he listen to the warning, no. He was told, he had to be back by sunset, did he listen, no. He saw Lana was okay, looked, saw the sun going down, and made a conscious choice to not go back, because he wanted to sit with Lana. He didn't save her, she wasn't hurt. He didn't help her, she was fine. He just sat there with her. That does make it Clark's fault.

[SteveS]

"I think it's obvious that AlMiles don't understand the concept of superheroism and sometimes I seriously wonder about their concept of morality and fairness."

This is the root of all evil for Smallville and it's failure to live up to it's potential as a franchise.

[jaya137]

Originally, I agreed with many of you that Smallville failed to capture the character of Superman by having young Clark Kent reject his powers, his heritage, his hero-ness to have a “normal” life where he gets the girl, etc., so many times. However, the character of Superman is complex. He is not completely the self-sacrificing hero that I imagine the people of Metropolis believe him to be. He does not spend his life in solitude when he is not needed as a hero. His heroism comes from his love of humankind and that love is from his experience of living in the world. He could not be Superman if he could not keep living the normal life of Clark Kent, which he achieves by being duplicitous. Given that the adult Superman has such an attachment to his double-life I think it is easy to imagine that as a teenager he would have rebelled to keep his normal life (S2 finale) and because he was a teenager not be aware of the consequences it would bring and spend time trying to forget the mistakes he made (S3 Exile).

Has Smallville kept the character in that place too long by having Clark make the same decisions over again in S4 (in failing to look for the crystals) and in the S5 opener (not returning to the fortress)? IMO, yes, the downfall of the show is that they aren’t letting Clark grow-up.

[bongoboy]

To answer the opening post; I think it is important to understand that the guy in Smallville is not Superman. He is a young, not fully developed teenager. This teenager will one day become Superman. When he matures.

As a side note to this, I just bought the Lois and Clark DVDs. I found them far more enjoyable to watch after having been viewing Smallville. I had no trouble at all believing that the Clark in L & C was an older version of Clark in Smallville.


Originally posted by SteveS
"I think it's obvious that AlMiles don't understand the concept of superheroism and sometimes I seriously wonder about their concept of morality and fairness."

This is the root of all evil for Smallville and it's failure to live up to it's potential as a franchise.

I mean no disrespect, but I have to disagree here. I think the real issue amongst those in the, for want of a better word negative SV crowd, is that things aren't turning out just exactly as they'd like. If this is the case, perhaps they should write their own TV shows and novels.

One can demand that things should be this! or should be that but I think it better, at least for myself, to realise I cannot control everything in life. Nobody can.

I made many many mistakes and did things differently to how I would now do them. To expect no less from Superman is to place him beyond what a growing being goes through. Whether it's a young dog lapping at very hot soup, or an older dog waiting for it to cool down. Superman was not born a super hero. He became one through his own conscious choice.

[Timester]

Originally posted by bongoboy
To answer the opening post; I think it is important to understand that the guy in Smallville is not Superman. He is a young, not fully developed teenager. This teenager will one day become Superman. When he matures.

But that's it. Clark doesn't become Superman. He is not Batman or Spider-Man. Clark is Superman. Superman is an image that Clark uses to protect his normal life (Pre-Crisis is different, but there he was the Superman since a little kid, Clark was the disguise). The SV Clark is the exact opposite, he thinks of his powers as a curse, he saves people because he has to and is retroactive, only acts when something happens. Even Peter Parker was more of superhero than this Clark at the same age.


Originally posted by bongoboy
Superman was not born a super hero. He became one through his own conscious choice.

Yes, because he thought his powers were a blessing and wanted to help the people and the world without thinking two times. He didn't "choose", he always thought it was the only and right thing to do.

[FreakyDroid]

I agree and disagree with both of you. Yes he was not born a superhero, he grows to become one. This is a prequel to the man behind the suit, and we all have different expectations, I understand that.

But along the way, I think that Al/Miles are forgetting to install more moral values in his persona, other then not accepting gifts from strangers and saving people's lifes. He should make his own choices, not doing the right thing only when there's no other choice. I want to see innitiative on his behalf. I want to see him becoming inspiration for people around him with his own actions, not being tossed around by the female characters of Smallville.

[Timester]

Originally posted by FreakyDroid
I agree and disagree with both of you. Yes he was not born a superhero, he grows to become one. This is a prequel to the man behind the suit, and we all have different expectations, I understand that.

But along the way, I think that Al/Miles are forgetting to install more moral values in his persona, other then not accepting gifts from strangers and saving people's lifes. He should make his own choices, not doing the right thing only when there's no other choice. I want to see innitiative on his behalf. I want to see him becoming inspiration for people around him with his own actions, not being tossed around by the female characters of Smallville.

That was what I was trying to say. :p

[FreakyDroid]

^ I know :D

[Watching Smallville]

Originally posted by FreakyDroid
But along the way, I think that Al/Miles are forgetting to install more moral values in his persona, other then not accepting gifts from strangers and saving people's lifes. He should make his own choices, not doing the right thing only when there's no other choice. I want to see innitiative on his behalf. I want to see him becoming inspiration for people around him with his own actions, not being tossed around by the female characters of Smallville. Yes -- and I don't know what happened. This was where Clark was going in the first two seasons. He wasn't doing the right thing because he got backed into a corner -- like at the end of Hidden when he's gloomy about saving everyone. That was really weird. He was actively attacking problems because he wanted to help, and he thought of his powers as a responsibility.

It's as if TPTB changed Clark's character in order to introduce certain story lines into the show. I'm not saying the stories aren't good -- sometimes they're great. But the star of those stories isn't the same Clark Kent we started off with. And sometimes it's not that Clark doesn't have Superman ethics, it's that he doesn't even seem to have reasonable human ethics. It doesn't happen often, but when it does, it's glaring.


Originally posted by bongoboy
I mean no disrespect, but I have to disagree here. I think the real issue amongst those in the, for want of a better word negative SV crowd, is that things aren't turning out just exactly as they'd like. If this is the case, perhaps they should write their own TV shows and novels. Personally, it's not "how things are turning out" that puzzles me, it's who the people are turning out to be. That's really puzzilng, given where they started. From my point of view, as someone who's been watching the show from the beginning, I so often have the feeling of starting over again from scratch, or the characters are not the same people, or some disconnect. It's hard not to react to that.

[FreakyDroid]

I'm speechless, great post Watching Smallville ;)

[Timester]

Originally posted by Watching Smallville
Personally, it's not "how things are turning out" that puzzles me, it's who the people are turning out to be. That's really puzzilng, given where they started. From my point of view, as someone who's been watching the show from the beginning, I so often have the feeling of starting over again from scratch, or the characters are not the same people, or some disconnect. It's hard not to react to that.

Exactly. The show is supposed to be a journey and it seems that they are moving backwards, 5 years later. It's frustrating for someone that see it since day one.

[HalJordan4184]

See, here's the problem, and this is addressed towards bongoboy primarily, but addresses some of the stuff others have written.

Clark Kent, is an established character, with established values, and established beliefs. As a teenager is he going to be the exact same man as when he's 30. Not entirely no, but core traits, and characteristics will be there. He might not be as wise, but he'll be as intelligent. You have no problem seeing this Clark becoming the Clark of Lois and Clark. But here's the problem, a LARGE contingent of people, can't see that at all. There is the problem. Would you have had trouble with this show, if Clark didn't hook himself on red k, and rob banks? Probably not. Would you have a problem, if Clark, rather than continue his stupid streak for years, learned something, and made wiser choices from about the third season on, rather than in hopefully season six? Probably not. That's the issue. Some people don't have a problem with this Clark, and that's fine. But a lot of people DO have a problem with this Clark. If a large portion of your fanbase thinks you've failed, then you have. The goal of this show, is to give us a believable journey of this boy into Superman. But by ignoring the very things that made him Superman to begin with, they've already made their success in that goal, impossible.

[FreakyDroid]

Based on what we've seen so far, and the direction they are going with him, I think I know what's going to happen. Until the end he's 'feelings' are going to be torn between the female characters, he's going to run around like a headless chicken, not accepting who he is, and then something unprecedent is going to happen - BAM - lighswitch - presto Supermen.

[foldinglaundry]

This is what is happening. Everyone has their own idea of who Superman is according to what they have seen or read as they were growing up. I can not keep the history straight: gold, silver, pre-crisis, post-crisis...

For me, I never followed him closely so Smallville makes sense. But I can see how SV wouldn't fit if you know him differently.

[FreakyDroid]

I know that a lot of SV fans dont read the comics and they are not familiar with the idea of who and what Superman is. Maybe some of you who have seen the Amazing story about Superman, the A&E Special aired a week ago, begin to understand that Smallville is nowhere near accepting the idea behind the mythos. I don't ask to much, I just want to see the old Clark Kent from S1-S3 back, not this loverboy masquerading as one.

[HalJordan4184]

foldinglaundry, the big thing with that though, is that no matter the Superman you grew up with, pre crisis, post crisis, silver age, modern age, golden age, you can still recognize the others as Superman, and you can still see all the same qualities in those characters. Smallville's Clark, just doesn't fit in with any other interpretation of Clark. It's not about knowing Superman in some kind of intimate fanboy way, it's about recognizing, that even though Smallville is about a kid named Clark from Krypton, it's far from the story of Superman.

[Terrestrial]

I don't believe M&G trusted in the existing mythos to make ratings (which ironically is precisely what Singer is hoping for).

There is a reason why Batman is considered a dark hero. What drives him and how he confronts his inner demons.

While CK is not supposed to be Jesus Christ, there is a sense that he had a very solid moral compass. One that would likely not lead him to voluntarily put on a Red Kryptonite ring, to rob banks or engage in premarital sex.

That is what I loved about CK. That sense of right and wrong that was inculcated in him by his Earth bound foster parents. His alien heritage actually make him more aware or sensitive to the fact that his actions have real world consequences.

In addition, I find that M&G do not seem to have any faith in teenagers to make the right choices. And thus, CK, as a teenager, must make horrendous mistakes to teach him about their consequences.

I respectfully disagree. In my youth, there were many peers who made the right choices even if they were the tough ones. CK should have been in that category.

[FreakyDroid]

Originally posted by Terrestrial

In addition, I find that M&G do not seem to have any faith in teenagers to make the right choices. And thus, CK, as a teenager, must make horrendous mistakes to teach him about their consequences.


This is probably one of the best posts I've read on these boards.

M&G dont understand the concept of a superhero. CK should be inspiration not just for the teenagers, but for all generations. They need to install stronger moral values in his persona, and they need to increase his IQ for at least 20%. OK maybe 50% :D

Making mistakes is common even for Superman, but he never makes the same mistake twice, but this Clark does, even more then twice. The show is moving into the final seasons (1 or 2) and I 'm still waiting to see the real Clark Kent.

[Watching Smallville]

Originally posted by Terrestrial
I don't believe M&G trusted in the existing mythos to make ratings (which ironically is precisely what Singer is hoping for). I think this is partially true -- but from what I understand, the show had its best ratings in the first two seasons, when Clark was a much more stable -- and likable -- Clark. I could be wrong about that -- and that could explain their strategy.

But I think it's also because we're watching the psychology of the creators of this show, and whatever that is spills over into many apsects of what happens on SV. For example, the problems w/ Lana's character, who is handled in a spectacularly bizarre way. The attempt to make Chloe unlikable because fans had taken to her. The extreme nature and consequences of the mistakes Clark makes -- often enough for me to consider the show too much of a downer to watch. The Lexmas dream sequence being the motivation for Lex's embracing his dark side. None of this relates to Superman. This relates to the creators, their unique take on the characters, and their view of the story as a tragedy.

This is not the Superman story. This is the Al/Miles Smallville story. It's something like what Mission Impossible did with the television show -- they ignored the fact that the show had millions of fans, an established history, and well-loved characters. The filmmakers decided to turn Jim Phelps into a villain -- MI history, fans, and characters be damned.

[FreakyDroid]

You're completely right. I can understand using creative freedom to make their own version of young Clark Kent, since we're talking about the first Superman incarnation in the 21st century, Superman for the new generation. In the past 70 years there were only a few comic book writers that missused the icon to create their own version of Superman, most of them just added ridicilous powers like hypnosis, soul-vision and I feel ashamed to mention the others :p , but none of them changed the core traits in his personality, not even the writers of Superboy.

Smallville is taking too much creative freedom to present Clark Kent of the 21st century. They already changed everything in the timeline (which is understandable) but now we're seeing siginificant changes in his personality. The CK I know would never behave like the version of Smallville. He should be the guy everyone looks up to, to be inspiration for people around him not with his superpowers, but with his strong personality and strong moral values. I'm not saying he doesnt have values, he does, but we're entering the final 1 or 2 seasons of the show, and the glimpses every now and then simply dont cut it for me anymore.

[myankskent]

Originally posted by FreakyDroid
You're completely right. I can understand using creative freedom to make their own version of young Clark Kent, since we're talking about the first Superman incarnation in the 21st century, Superman for the new generation. In the past 70 years there were only a few comic book writers that missused the icon to create their own version of Superman, most of them just added ridicilous powers like hypnosis, soul-vision and I feel ashamed to mention the others :p , but none of them changed the core traits in his personality, not even the writers of Superboy.

Smallville is taking too much creative freedom to present Clark Kent of the 21st century. They already changed everything in the timeline (which is understandable) but now we're seeing siginificant changes in his personality. The CK I know would never behave like the version of Smallville. He should be the guy everyone looks up to, to be inspiration for people around him not with his superpowers, but with his strong personality and strong moral values. I'm not saying he doesnt have values, he does, but we're entering the final 1 or 2 seasons of the show, and the glimpses every now and then simply dont cut it for me anymore.

I don't mind the personality changes prior to season 5. I can understand that they need to stretch out the series, but season 5 was atrocious for Clark Kent's character. And if they do what I think they are going to do in season 6, I will not be pleased. I don't want to watch another season plus of Clark screwing up to get a lightswitch at the very end of the series when he throws the suit on. I want to see glimpses of the real Clark Kent right now, especially when he gets out of the phantom zone.

[FreakyDroid]

Originally posted by myankskent
I don't mind the personality changes prior to season 5. I can understand that they need to stretch out the series, but season 5 was atrocious for Clark Kent's character. And if they do what I think they are going to do in season 6, I will not be pleased. I don't want to watch another season plus of Clark screwing up to get a lightswitch at the very end of the series when he throws the suit on. I want to see glimpses of the real Clark Kent right now, especially when he gets out of the phantom zone.

I agree. What I was trying to say is that I want them to stop writing him going over the same trials, making the same mistakes over and over again, never drawing a reasonable conclusion out of difficult situations.

They have a perfect setup for S6. If explored enough, the PZ can be some sort of lightswitch for the good of his character. I'm eager to see Smallville's take on the PZ. To be completely honest, so far SV is doing an excellent job presenting Kryptonian artifacts and technolgy, I have no complains about that, not at all. Except for Zod of course, but since Elvis has already left the building, its not even worth discussing it.

[foldinglaundry]

I see what you mean, HalJordan4184.

Everyone here is making some really good points.

I always thought that SV Clark is so different because he is not Superman yet, thus able to make the poor decisions he does.

But perhaps he is too out of character. He is moving away from being Superman not towards.

I have not seen most of season 5 (I am catching it now with the reruns) so I don't know all that Al/Miles have made him do. I hope they do not ruin Superman.

[Terrestrial]

For me, the show didn't really jump the tracks until the episode where CK knowingly put on the Red K ring and then engaged in criminal activity. He knew what the ring would do and didn't care. Later on, M&G would comment that red kryptonite removed his inhibitions. Well, inhibitions are one thing. Knowingly committing crimes are another.

I found the whole thing quite remarkable, particularly because at the end of the day, M&G kind of washed their hands of the whole thing and largely ignored the ramifications of his actions other than Morgan showing up and conveniently being removed as an issue.

I don't know if any of you remember that over the top King Arthur movie "Excalibur", but one of the best concepts in the movie is about making mistakes and accepting responsibility for them. Arthur literally breaks Excalibur in order to gain an advantage over Lancelot in their duel to the death. He is also remiss in his roles as king and husband and totally ignores Merlin's advice about it all. BUT . . . there is a great scene toward the end of the movie after Arthur is revitalized by the Holy Grail where he reflects that it is time for him to really be king and to stop ignoring issues or allowing others to fight his battles or causes.

CK has never been allowed a moment like Arthur of real self reflection. I had actually hoped that the FOS would lead him to some real revelations about himself, but it's all bogged down in the plot now.

Bascially, CK has no place to go. He can no longer run away, but not because he wouldn't choose to do so. He despises his alien heritage for a variety of reasons and those reasons are ever increasing. In short, he cannot get out of his own way.

And, let's face it. The LAST THING this CK would do is to don a costume and flaunt his alien heritage to the world. This CK looks at his heritage as such a curse, he would relish the opportunity to fade into obscurity and be normal.

Thus, if given the choice, Superman would be his hidden identity. And one he would go to great lengths never to reveal to a soul.

That is why this CK could never be Superman. Even if he had 1000 heroic opportunities presented to him now, the character itself is totally conflicted internally. M&G won't allow him to behave as Superman would and I think the excellent posts above confirm this.

[Hurricain]

Originally posted by Terrestrial
For me, the show didn't really jump the tracks until the episode where CK knowingly put on the Red K ring and then engaged in criminal activity. He knew what the ring would do and didn't care. Later on, M&G would comment that red kryptonite removed his inhibitions. Well, inhibitions are one thing. Knowingly committing crimes are another.

Same here. I couldn't believe I was watching Clark Kent actually doing criminal acts and not caring about it. I mean stealing is one thing, but blowing up police cars? Thats putting peoples lives in danger.


Originally posted by Terrestrial
And, let's face it. The LAST THING this CK would do is to don a costume and flaunt his alien heritage to the world. This CK looks at his heritage as such a curse, he would relish the opportunity to fade into obscurity and be normal.

Great point. Season 6 had better show a very different Clark Kent. As of right now, he is no where near being Superman.

[bongoboy]

Originally posted by Timester




Yes, because he thought his powers were a blessing and wanted to help the people and the world without thinking two times. He didn't "choose", he always thought it was the only and right thing to do. [/B]

Many philosophers would argue that everything is choice. In fact many have. Even religious leaders have said the same thing. Freedom of choice is based in Free Will.

Superman is a title. A title that was chosen by he who uses it. This being could have been bad or good. He made his choice in favour of good.

[HalJordan4184]

Many philosophers would also argue nothing is choice.

Also, it's not saying Clark never chooses, that it's just determined for him, we're saying, his choice has always lay on that path of righteousness, and morality. He didn't ever choose to deviate from it, because that, isn't the character. It doesn't matter if you like it, or not, or you think it's realistic or not. That's simply the character. I hate arguments about how characters need changed. If you don't like them how they are, fine, but make your own then. Don't pervert existing ones.

[Timester]

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1205367-1,00.html

"But we must discuss it, for this is where the movie displays its impressive ambition and cunning. Earlier versions of Superman stressed the hero's humanity: his attachment to his Earth parents, his country-boy clumsiness around Lois. The Singer version emphasizes his divinity. He is not a super man; he is a god (named Kal-El), sent by his heavenly father (Jor-El) to protect Earth. That is a mission that takes more than muscles; it requires sacrifice, perhaps of his own life. So he is no simple comic-book hunk. He is Earth's savior: Jesus Christ Superman."

At least Singer got it.

[FreakyDroid]

If you watched the A&E special, Singer gives a very nice comment about the movie and thats why I have respect for him:

"You're dealing with a 70 year old Universe, of comic books, and radio shows, and multiple TV shows, that will exis LONG after I'm gone."

I think this comment speaks volumes.

[Watching Smallville]

Originally posted by Timester
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1205367-1,00.html

"But we must discuss it, for this is where the movie displays its impressive ambition and cunning. Earlier versions of Superman stressed the hero's humanity: his attachment to his Earth parents, his country-boy clumsiness around Lois. The Singer version emphasizes his divinity. He is not a super man; he is a god (named Kal-El), sent by his heavenly father (Jor-El) to protect Earth. That is a mission that takes more than muscles; it requires sacrifice, perhaps of his own life. So he is no simple comic-book hunk. He is Earth's savior: Jesus Christ Superman."

At least Singer got it. Thanks for the article, Timester. I'm really looking forward to the movie, now.

[Terrestrial]

great article. I actually thought Donner captured well that notion of CK becoming Kal-El, a demi-god of sorts after he reached the FOS.

[Dor el]

Wow! I don't remember reading a thread with so many posts containing valid points.

I agree that SV's Ck has regressed somewhat from his wide eyed naive, but optomistic view of the world to the current brooding, conflicted, and longing character. I agree that some of the things CK did in SV apper to be very unsupermanlike. The premarital sex, the red K abuse, the criminal activity. These things did NOT do Superman justice. Kids watching those moments could not have been positively inspired. Too bad for the kids. Too bad for the fans. Too bad for the show. Shame on Al/Miles!

However, I tend to disagree, somewhat, with comment about CK seeing his gifts as a curse, his rejecting his destiny, and his failure to behave in a supermanlike way. First, he was raised by earthlings. Earthlings who knew nothing about his heritage, his powers, or his destiny. In that vein, CK knew nothing about his heritage, his powers, or his destiny. Fear of the unknown is supposed to be the greatest fear of all. I can understand why CK might reject something he does not understand and probably isn't even aware of. All he knew was what he saw around him. And what he saw was humans. Humans who often made imperfect decisions. Humans whom he considered the standard for "normal". Based on that standard, he saw himself as not normal. Very not normal. I'd think that's be a pretty devastating conclusion to come to about yourself. It's "human nature" to want to blend in. Especially as a teenager. It's only when one arrives at a more emotionaly mature level later in adulthood, does one understand that it's not about being like everyone else, but more about being who you are. Being what you were created to be. CK, in SV has not attained that level of maturity. His maturation has been retarded by Al/Miles. I hold them solely responsible for that major blunder.

There have been moments in SV when CK made tough decisions that I can see Superman making. Decisions where his intentions was to put others' needs and wants before his own. Sometimes intentions don't work out in reality as well as they did in the mind. SV's CK has made mistakes. Granted some of the mistakes he duplicated and that should not have happened to a person with superior intelligence. However, I have made mistakes by doing the same thing and expecting different outcomes. So has CK. I think that some of the mistakes CK has made will help him be Superman. He will understand how people make mistakes. He will understand human weaknesses. He'll be able to rise above those bad human choices because he understands them. He's lived them. He'll be able to show humanity that mistakes can be overcome. Mistakes he's made are an important part of who Superman is. Not that mistakes are his nature. It's just natural to make mistakes sometimes. But most importantly, Superman will learn from CK's mistakes. That consequences to decisions made can and will be disasterous. Thus, Superman/grown up CK will think carefully, albeit quickly, about his choices, his decisions, his actions, his motives etc. That super pensive characteristic is part of what makes Superman super. Granted, Superman can carefully analyze a situation far more rapidly that can the rst of us humans. :)

When he learns what his destiny is, what his powers are best suited to, how he can best serve humanity, then he will be able to embrace who and what he is. The greatest superhero of all time. SV has not hit that nail on the head yet.

I do hope that during season 6, TPPTB (the proverbial powers that be), take the opportunity to show us the intended nature of CK. The CK that will be known as Superman. I think they can still do it if they choose to. Everything seems to boil down to choices.

[Terrestrial]

I hope you are right Dor=El. Perhaps the movie will rub off on them or WB will put pressure on them to portray the character as intended.

[Dangerous George]

Originally posted by Terrestrial
I watched the A&E special last night on Superman and one of the things that leapt from the screen was Singer's comment about how important it was to stick to what the character is all about.

Smallville doesn't cut it in my opinion because after the Second Season, I believe that M&G lost sight of the whole premise of who Clark is, what he aspires to and how he will become Superman.

The depicted CK is all over the map. He is HORRIBLY conflicted about his heritage. In fact, I would daresay he despises all things Kryptonian given the depiction of his father. I personally am not sure what was worse to do to poor Clark. Give him a Jor-El through the ship that is cold, calculating and abusive, or a Jor-El who possesses Lionel and tells his son that he loves him when we are all looking at Lionel delivering the "fireside" chats to his son.

This CK has experienced parental abuse from his biological father, drug abuse through Kryptonite (voluntarily to boot, which saddened me), has engaged in criminal activity and so forth. And every year, he runs from his problems and learns of the horrendous ramifications of his actions, and yet continues to run into the same Electric Fence repeatedly. And to make matters worse, he is literally forced into situations by Jor-El, as if he is not capable of making his own moral decisions or if all of his decisions lack good judgment. I cannot even imagine what that would do to your psyche with all the guilt, frustration and anguish that builds from it.

At least Peter Parker can take SOME solace in the fact that he wasn't the one who actually killed his Uncle Ben. It was his passivity and failure to act that led to the event. In contrast, I don't know how CK could live with himself for literally creating a chain of events that basically led to the death of his father. Events he directly caused and could have prevented.

At the same time, M&G have thrown at us 18 billion kinds of Kryptonite, and an extremely warped mythos that ties in Magic of all things to the plotline.

The only parallel I am aware of to Smallville is X-Files, particularly the laugh riot when Mulder tries to actually explain the whole alien thing in the last season and Chris Carter is forced to put all of his convoluted theories together. The oil, the bees, the clones, the whole thing. If it wasn't so sad it would have been funny.

This show had amazing potential. I still remember the Chris Reeve episode and how wonderful it was. The discovery of his alien heritage and all that goes along with it. That was where it was at for me. Even the Fortress had something going for it, although it seems like CK has learned nothing but despite for that place as well given all the Jor-El/Braniac antics there.

In conclusion, IMHO, this Clark would need years of therapy just to handle adult life, let alone to become a semblance of the Superman we know. As he exists, he is too troubled, conflicted and warped to be anything but a flawed version of the Man of Steel.

thank you


Originally posted by HalJordan4184
foldinglaundry, the big thing with that though, is that no matter the Superman you grew up with, pre crisis, post crisis, silver age, modern age, golden age, you can still recognize the others as Superman, and you can still see all the same qualities in those characters. Smallville's Clark, just doesn't fit in with any other interpretation of Clark. It's not about knowing Superman in some kind of intimate fanboy way, it's about recognizing, that even though Smallville is about a kid named Clark from Krypton, it's far from the story of Superman.

true story and well said


Originally posted by Timester
The problem is that destroys completely the character. Clark Kent is not some "other-superhero". What they are showing to us is not Clark Kent, but a kid that is called "Clark Kent". There is no way he can be the Superman in future. No way... :\

well said and much appreciated


Originally posted by SteveS
Terrestrial, I enjoyed your comments as one who has previously noted the great potential that this show had yet failed to achieve.

Last night I saw again how ignorant Miller & Gough were of the Superman story when they did not even know of Annette O'Toole ever playing the part of Lana Lang. Incredible for people who are TPTb and that live in the internet age. (Whether these two or Singer read or never read comics is somewhat irrelevant to me as they were going for video versions)

It appears to me, that M&G had an idea for a TV show for adolescents and little beyond that in terms of conception, certainly not a clear cut picture of "what is character all about" a la Singer. As a result of little or not conception of what the character is about, Jor-el, etc. and using a variety of writers switching off who would inherently be somewhat undirected since TPTB were unclear, we have had a hodge-podge of conflicting and inferior episodes.

Too bad, Superman has a huge fan base of fans from a variety of mediums for generations. Last night's special said that 8 million watched the premiere of Smallville. I don't really look too much at the various ratings, but I would bet the viewership is strictly a fraction of the original and potential number of viewers.

Whether or not I like this character or that, in the end, it is strictly Miller & Gough who bear ultimate responsibility for the mediocrity of Smallville. Using old TV series as a guide, had these two had the vision of Babylon 5's creator, this show should have been huge and historic. As it is, it is going to be dependent upon Singer's vision and success (I am confident) to derive additional interest in Smallville.

Wish that I could believe that Miller & Gough had the talent to pull off the last year(s) on a level of quality that Superman deserves.

true story and another good post. thank you


Originally posted by Terrestrial
Thanks for the feedback.

I don't think I would have bothered to post if it wasn't for the A&E special, even if it is motivated by the upcoming movie.

In the end, I think Warner Brothers is deathly afraid that if it doesn't somehow "reinvent" its comic book properties, then they will just die on the vine.

Batman Begins was the first WB film since Donner's Superman where I felt as though they captured the essence of a comic book hero in a way that didn't feel like reinvention. I have grave doubts about Superman Returns already, particularly in hearing that Singer cut from the movie a critical development scene of Kal El returning to a burned out Krypton, perhaps to consider his origins. A single mom Lois Lane with a fiancee doesn't really do much for me either. But suit to taste.

In any event, where Superman goes in the future is anyone's guess. I truly hope that WB remembers that the magic in Superman is really in holding sacred the history and the origin of this wonderful icon.

well, if they don't then truly it is "dead on the vine"


Originally posted by HalJordan4184
kal-el1513, that's the problem. It's a common thing many people make in regards to Superman, and Clark. They aren't two different people. You can't say Clark Kent isn't Superman yet, so therefore anything he does doesn't really underscore Superman. Superman isn't a seperate entity, he's the same man. Superman, is driven by the past experiences of Clark, and likewise, Clark, can't be a vastly different person than Superman. While this Clark has on occasion demonstrated traits inline with the future man of steel, he's also demonstrated, on a much more frequent occasion, traits Superman finds dispicable, and what he sees as some of humanities biggest problems.

Superman is more than a guy who saves people. He's the true inspiration for every person, including other super heroes. It's not because he had a similar upbringing, rather the opposite, he had the most unique, yet at the same time most human experience out of all of his future colleagues. He lived a quiet, drama free, tragedy free existance, and was the most normal out of everyone. Even with all his powers and abilities, Clark Kent fit in better than anyone, and was a better example of everything RIGHT in the world.

Note, I'm not saying Clark can't make mistakes, but wha tptb have failed to realize is that Clark has a certain limited range of severity in the mistakes, and types of mistakes he can make. Clark can stand by and watch as someone drinks, and drives, and then they get in the accident, but something like red, where in essence Clark is the one doing the drinking and driving, is just wrong. You get what I'm saying. Superman, and by extension Clark, is someone who has learned more from watching other people do the wrong thing, than he ever did doing the wrong thing himself. It's part of his character. He's so careful because of his powers, he's afraid to make mistakes, and heavily considers all of his actions. Smallville, well, Clark on Smallville, might as well just kill everyone and be done with it. The first big disaster, he's gonna cave with all the pressure that would bring.

goodness, another well stated post.

thank you


Originally posted by Nospam
Were forgetting about the New York Times interview with Al and Miles from May 20th that spoke volumes about the direction the show took from the very beginning, especially Al's ending statement:



Right from the horse's mouth. That about sums up what's wrong with the show: they think it's a tragedy that Clark has to end an adolescent romance and grow into an adult. Oh, and Lex becomes evil. OK, Lex's growth to evil on Smallville is tragic considering that Clark and Jonathan are in many ways responsible for that happening, but I've never viewed Superman as a tragedy. Superman has always been about hope, and justice.

AlMiles view on Clark and Superman has been warped from the very start of the show, and it's a wonder we have any episodes at all to be proud of. I have to echo MBCorp's observations here: it seems that TPTB are embarrassed by the comic book connotations of Smallville and have worked hard and creating a teen drama ala Dawson's Creek rather than a compelling adult TV show.

There is still a chance this show can be redeemed in the last two seasons, but AlMiles are going to have abandon this assinine idea that Clark becoming Superman is a tragedy. [/B]

well that's just it, they don't get it. after 5 seasons, they don't GET IT! and it's too late for them, sadly

great post tho,

thank you


Originally posted by 1.21 gigawatts
I do think that Smallville has a lot of problems. I think that Smallville has missed the mark since S3. But I stick with it because I remember being five years old and seeing the man in blue for the first time.

yeah


Originally posted by Watching Smallville
Yes -- and I don't know what happened. This was where Clark was going in the first two seasons. He wasn't doing the right thing because he got backed into a corner -- like at the end of Hidden when he's gloomy about saving everyone. That was really weird. He was actively attacking problems because he wanted to help, and he thought of his powers as a responsibility.

It's as if TPTB changed Clark's character in order to introduce certain story lines into the show. I'm not saying the stories aren't good -- sometimes they're great. But the star of those stories isn't the same Clark Kent we started off with. And sometimes it's not that Clark doesn't have Superman ethics, it's that he doesn't even seem to have reasonable human ethics. It doesn't happen often, but when it does, it's glaring.

Personally, it's not "how things are turning out" that puzzles me, it's who the people are turning out to be. That's really puzzilng, given where they started. From my point of view, as someone who's been watching the show from the beginning, I so often have the feeling of starting over again from scratch, or the characters are not the same people, or some disconnect. It's hard not to react to that.

true story


Originally posted by HalJordan4184
See, here's the problem, and this is addressed towards bongoboy primarily, but addresses some of the stuff others have written.

Clark Kent, is an established character, with established values, and established beliefs. As a teenager is he going to be the exact same man as when he's 30. Not entirely no, but core traits, and characteristics will be there. He might not be as wise, but he'll be as intelligent. You have no problem seeing this Clark becoming the Clark of Lois and Clark. But here's the problem, a LARGE contingent of people, can't see that at all. There is the problem. Would you have had trouble with this show, if Clark didn't hook himself on red k, and rob banks? Probably not. Would you have a problem, if Clark, rather than continue his stupid streak for years, learned something, and made wiser choices from about the third season on, rather than in hopefully season six? Probably not. That's the issue. Some people don't have a problem with this Clark, and that's fine. But a lot of people DO have a problem with this Clark. If a large portion of your fanbase thinks you've failed, then you have. The goal of this show, is to give us a believable journey of this boy into Superman. But by ignoring the very things that made him Superman to begin with, they've already made their success in that goal, impossible.

boy, again, well stated.

thank you, in fact you may go to the head of the class ;)


Originally posted by Terrestrial
I don't believe M&G trusted in the existing mythos to make ratings (which ironically is precisely what Singer is hoping for).

There is a reason why Batman is considered a dark hero. What drives him and how he confronts his inner demons.

While CK is not supposed to be Jesus Christ, there is a sense that he had a very solid moral compass. One that would likely not lead him to voluntarily put on a Red Kryptonite ring, to rob banks or engage in premarital sex.

That is what I loved about CK. That sense of right and wrong that was inculcated in him by his Earth bound foster parents. His alien heritage actually make him more aware or sensitive to the fact that his actions have real world consequences.

In addition, I find that M&G do not seem to have any faith in teenagers to make the right choices. And thus, CK, as a teenager, must make horrendous mistakes to teach him about their consequences.

I respectfully disagree. In my youth, there were many peers who made the right choices even if they were the tough ones. CK should have been in that category.

WORD


Originally posted by FreakyDroid
This is probably one of the best posts I've read on these boards.

M&G dont understand the concept of a superhero. CK should be inspiration not just for the teenagers, but for all generations. They need to install stronger moral values in his persona, and they need to increase his IQ for at least 20%. OK maybe 50% :D

Making mistakes is common even for Superman, but he never makes the same mistake twice, but this Clark does, even more then twice. The show is moving into the final seasons (1 or 2) and I 'm still waiting to see the real Clark Kent.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:


Originally posted by Watching Smallville
I think this is partially true -- but from what I understand, the show had its best ratings in the first two seasons, when Clark was a much more stable -- and likable -- Clark. I could be wrong about that -- and that could explain their strategy.

But I think it's also because we're watching the psychology of the creators of this show, and whatever that is spills over into many apsects of what happens on SV. For example, the problems w/ Lana's character, who is handled in a spectacularly bizarre way. The attempt to make Chloe unlikable because fans had taken to her. The extreme nature and consequences of the mistakes Clark makes -- often enough for me to consider the show too much of a downer to watch. The Lexmas dream sequence being the motivation for Lex's embracing his dark side. None of this relates to Superman. This relates to the creators, their unique take on the characters, and their view of the story as a tragedy.

This is not the Superman story. This is the Al/Miles Smallville story. It's something like what Mission Impossible did with the television show -- they ignored the fact that the show had millions of fans, an established history, and well-loved characters. The filmmakers decided to turn Jim Phelps into a villain -- MI history, fans, and characters be damned.


wow. thank you


Originally posted by FreakyDroid
You're completely right. I can understand using creative freedom to make their own version of young Clark Kent, since we're talking about the first Superman incarnation in the 21st century, Superman for the new generation. In the past 70 years there were only a few comic book writers that missused the icon to create their own version of Superman, most of them just added ridicilous powers like hypnosis, soul-vision and I feel ashamed to mention the others :p , but none of them changed the core traits in his personality, not even the writers of Superboy.

Smallville is taking too much creative freedom to present Clark Kent of the 21st century. They already changed everything in the timeline (which is understandable) but now we're seeing siginificant changes in his personality. The CK I know would never behave like the version of Smallville. He should be the guy everyone looks up to, to be inspiration for people around him not with his superpowers, but with his strong personality and strong moral values. I'm not saying he doesnt have values, he does, but we're entering the final 1 or 2 seasons of the show, and the glimpses every now and then simply dont cut it for me anymore.

yup


Originally posted by foldinglaundry
I see what you mean, HalJordan4184.

Everyone here is making some really good points.

I always thought that SV Clark is so different because he is not Superman yet, thus able to make the poor decisions he does.

But perhaps he is too out of character. He is moving away from being Superman not towards.

I have not seen most of season 5 (I am catching it now with the reruns) so I don't know all that Al/Miles have made him do. I hope they do not ruin Superman.

too late


Originally posted by Terrestrial
For me, the show didn't really jump the tracks until the episode where CK knowingly put on the Red K ring and then engaged in criminal activity. He knew what the ring would do and didn't care. Later on, M&G would comment that red kryptonite removed his inhibitions. Well, inhibitions are one thing. Knowingly committing crimes are another.

I found the whole thing quite remarkable, particularly because at the end of the day, M&G kind of washed their hands of the whole thing and largely ignored the ramifications of his actions other than Morgan showing up and conveniently being removed as an issue.

I don't know if any of you remember that over the top King Arthur movie "Excalibur", but one of the best concepts in the movie is about making mistakes and accepting responsibility for them. Arthur literally breaks Excalibur in order to gain an advantage over Lancelot in their duel to the death. He is also remiss in his roles as king and husband and totally ignores Merlin's advice about it all. BUT . . . there is a great scene toward the end of the movie after Arthur is revitalized by the Holy Grail where he reflects that it is time for him to really be king and to stop ignoring issues or allowing others to fight his battles or causes.

CK has never been allowed a moment like Arthur of real self reflection. I had actually hoped that the FOS would lead him to some real revelations about himself, but it's all bogged down in the plot now.

Bascially, CK has no place to go. He can no longer run away, but not because he wouldn't choose to do so. He despises his alien heritage for a variety of reasons and those reasons are ever increasing. In short, he cannot get out of his own way.

And, let's face it. The LAST THING this CK would do is to don a costume and flaunt his alien heritage to the world. This CK looks at his heritage as such a curse, he would relish the opportunity to fade into obscurity and be normal.

Thus, if given the choice, Superman would be his hidden identity. And one he would go to great lengths never to reveal to a soul.

That is why this CK could never be Superman. Even if he had 1000 heroic opportunities presented to him now, the character itself is totally conflicted internally. M&G won't allow him to behave as Superman would and I think the excellent posts above confirm this.

true story, thank you


Originally posted by Dor el
Wow! I don't remember reading a thread with so many posts containing valid points.

I agree that SV's Ck has regressed somewhat from his wide eyed naive, but optomistic view of the world to the current brooding, conflicted, and longing character. I agree that some of the things CK did in SV apper to be very unsupermanlike. The premarital sex, the red K abuse, the criminal activity. These things did NOT do Superman justice. Kids watching those moments could not have been positively inspired. Too bad for the kids. Too bad for the fans. Too bad for the show. Shame on Al/Miles!

However, I tend to disagree, somewhat, with comment about CK seeing his gifts as a curse, his rejecting his destiny, and his failure to behave in a supermanlike way. First, he was raised by earthlings. Earthlings who knew nothing about his heritage, his powers, or his destiny. In that vein, CK knew nothing about his heritage, his powers, or his destiny. Fear of the unknown is supposed to be the greatest fear of all. I can understand why CK might reject something he does not understand and probably isn't even aware of. All he knew was what he saw around him. And what he saw was humans. Humans who often made imperfect decisions. Humans whom he considered the standard for "normal". Based on that standard, he saw himself as not normal. Very not normal. I'd think that's be a pretty devastating conclusion to come to about yourself. It's "human nature" to want to blend in. Especially as a teenager. It's only when one arrives at a more emotionaly mature level later in adulthood, does one understand that it's not about being like everyone else, but more about being who you are. Being what you were created to be. CK, in SV has not attained that level of maturity. His maturation has been retarded by Al/Miles. I hold them solely responsible for that major blunder.

There have been moments in SV when CK made tough decisions that I can see Superman making. Decisions where his intentions was to put others' needs and wants before his own. Sometimes intentions don't work out in reality as well as they did in the mind. SV's CK has made mistakes. Granted some of the mistakes he duplicated and that should not have happened to a person with superior intelligence. However, I have made mistakes by doing the same thing and expecting different outcomes. So has CK. I think that some of the mistakes CK has made will help him be Superman. He will understand how people make mistakes. He will understand human weaknesses. He'll be able to rise above those bad human choices because he understands them. He's lived them. He'll be able to show humanity that mistakes can be overcome. Mistakes he's made are an important part of who Superman is. Not that mistakes are his nature. It's just natural to make mistakes sometimes. But most importantly, Superman will learn from CK's mistakes. That consequences to decisions made can and will be disasterous. Thus, Superman/grown up CK will think carefully, albeit quickly, about his choices, his decisions, his actions, his motives etc. That super pensive characteristic is part of what makes Superman super. Granted, Superman can carefully analyze a situation far more rapidly that can the rst of us humans. :)

When he learns what his destiny is, what his powers are best suited to, how he can best serve humanity, then he will be able to embrace who and what he is. The greatest superhero of all time. SV has not hit that nail on the head yet.

I do hope that during season 6, TPPTB (the proverbial powers that be), take the opportunity to show us the intended nature of CK. The CK that will be known as Superman. I think they can still do it if they choose to. Everything seems to boil down to choices.

hmmm. i don't know if they can be trusted to do what you've suggested. it truly would be nice, but history is a good teacher and wisdom is justified of her children, leopards don't change spots - they are there for the duration and so are TPTB - just a thought :\

[puddinpiester]

I see the gangs all been here. Good. Kind of a pessimistic thread but definitely some good points. The Pollyanna in me holds on to the hope that SV can be fixed. Not ready to give up altogether. But, I must admit that I am not missing SV as much as I expected I would during this relatively long hiatus. I am not even rewatching the first 5 seasons (via DVDs and an 80 hour TIVO). The threads don't really interest me that much either. Too much blah, blah, blah. However, when HalJordan writes, I read. :)

Perhaps a psychiatrist or a group of them should set up shop on the SV set and in the writers room. Clark has been through so much heartache and darkness the past season or two or three that he is surely scarred beyond recognition. Might explain his lack of recognizability in SV. Lana is simply neurotic. Lex is teetering on the brink of being psychotic. Lionel is suffering from schizophrenia due to the cohabitation in his mind/body. Chloe is a victim of idioipathic delusions of gandeur. She has to take up the slack for Clark while he is suffering from his failure of self actualization. Lois is in her own world, out of time and out of place. Martha, the grief stricken widow is trying to hold what's left of her family together but is getting oh so lonely, maybe even desperately lonely. Yes, the sleepy little hamlet known as SV is in serious need of psychoanalysis and psychotherapy. I hope they get it and soon.

Start with Al/Miles. Those guys must feel terrible at having had such a great oportunity to do something great in the Superman world only to have succumbed to mediocrity. I don't get the impression that these guys are overcome with humility, so why would they miss a chance to put their indelible mark on the great Superman mythos? Only explanation is dysfunctional thinking.

I am a Superman fan. I don't have the broad data base that many of you have, but I have been enthralled with the character for as long as I can remember. It pains me to see the squandered opportunity to propell Superman forward so that current and future generations can enjoy the superhero.

Don't mess with the basics. Spruce up the peripherals. Update the wardrobe and the toys. But, by all means. keep Superman super. This doesn't seem so hard to do. I don't understand why TPTB don't just write good stories, read their own work and keep the plotlines and characters consistent. The TV shows and movies that have been lasting have depended on good story telling. There is so precious little on TV that I find enjoyable, the field is wide open for the CW to make a mark (and maybe money too). Budget for good writers, directors, and special effects. But, don't mess with the history.

Addendum: Today, as I was reading the USA News Today (online), there is an article about the upcoming SR movie. In it reference is made to the changing man of steel. Bryan Singers talks about making Superman in line with what's going on in the world today. It mentions that SM in SR is more brooding, more angsty, more conflicted than Superman of yesterday because those characteristics are more reflective of society today. He specifically mentions social issues like divorce, out of wedlock children, etc. It also mentions that Superman, while possessing enormous strength and speed, is not protected from the usual human difficulties such as romance, love for a woman, disappointments, and utter helplessness when it comes to emotional issues. Seems like SV to me. Could Bryan Singer have watched SV? Could Al/Miles have accidentally stumbled onto something? Again, don't mess with Superman's core qualities, but maybe it's OK to tweak things a bit here and there. We all seem, at least to some extent, to be still interested in Superman in general and in SV in particular.

[Dangerous George]

Originally posted by puddinpiester
I see the gangs all been here. Good. Kind of a pessimistic thread but definitely some good points. The Pollyanna in me holds on to the hope that SV can be fixed. Not ready to give up altogether. But, I must admit that I am not missing SV as much as I expected I would during this relatively long hiatus. I am not even rewatching the first 5 seasons (via DVDs and an 80 hour TIVO). The threads don't really interest me that much either. Too much blah, blah, blah. However, when HalJordan writes, I read. :)

Perhaps a psychiatrist or a group of them should set up shop on the SV set and in the writers room. Clark has been through so much heartache and darkness the past season or two or three that he is surely scarred beyond recognition. Might explain his lack of recognizability in SV. Lana is simply neurotic. Lex is teetering on the brink of being psychotic. Lionel is suffering from schizophrenia due to the cohabitation in his mind/body. Chloe is a victim of idioipathic delusions of gandeur. She has to take up the slack for Clark while he is suffering from his failure of self actualization. Lois is in her own world, out of time and out of place. Martha, the grief stricken widow is trying to hold what's left of her family together but is getting oh so lonely, maybe even desperately lonely. Yes, the sleepy little hamlet known as SV is in serious need of psychoanalysis and psychotherapy. I hope they get it and soon.

Start with Al/Miles. Those guys must feel terrible at having had such a great oportunity to do something great in the Superman world only to have succumbed to mediocrity. I don't get the impression that these guys are overcome with humility, so why would they miss a chance to put their indelible mark on the great Superman mythos? Only explanation is dysfunctional thinking.

I am a Superman fan. I don't have the broad data base that many of you have, but I have been enthralled with the character for as long as I can remember. It pains me to see the squandered opportunity to propell Superman forward so that current and future generations can enjoy the superhero.

Don't mess with the basics. Spruce up the peripherals. Update the wardrobe and the toys. But, by all means. keep Superman super. This doesn't seem so hard to do. I don't understand why TPTB don't just write good stories, read their own work and keep the plotlines and characters consistent. The TV shows and movies that have been lasting have depended on good story telling. There is so precious little on TV that I find enjoyable, the field is wide open for the CW to make a mark (and maybe money too). Budget for good writers, directors, and special effects. But, don't mess with the history.

Addendum: Today, as I was reading the USA News Today (online), there is an article about the upcoming SR movie. In it reference is made to the changing man of steel. Bryan Singers talks about making Superman in line with what's going on in the world today. It mentions that SM in SR is more brooding, more angsty, more conflicted than Superman of yesterday because those characteristics are more reflective of society today. He specifically mentions social issues like divorce, out of wedlock children, etc. It also mentions that Superman, while possessing enormous strength and speed, is not protected from the usual human difficulties such as romance, love for a woman, disappointments, and utter helplessness when it comes to emotional issues. Seems like SV to me. Could Bryan Singer have watched SV? Could Al/Miles have accidentally stumbled onto something? Again, don't mess with Superman's core qualities, but maybe it's OK to tweak things a bit here and there. We all seem, at least to some extent, to be still interested in Superman in general and in SV in particular.

well said

thank you

[KryptonX81]

I think the problem is that they dont feel that anyone can relate to him. They feel that teenagers today are narcissists filled with cynicism and feel that unless Clark is that way too, then teens can't relate to him. Thus we are given a new depressed emo Superman, instead of the proud, confident, optomistic one that we have all come to know and love.

What they dont get is that it is people like them that are creating these depressed teens. Of course they are going to by pessimistic. Every single teen show on tv is filled with sad kids. Without any example to look up to, how could they not be depressed.

[Dangerous George]

Originally posted by KryptonX81
I think the problem is that they dont feel that anyone can relate to him. They feel that teenagers today are narcissists filled with cynicism and feel that unless Clark is that way too, then teens can't relate to him. Thus we are given a new depressed emo Superman, instead of the proud, confident, optomistic one that we have all come to know and love.

What they dont get is that it is people like them that are creating these depressed teens. Of course they are going to by pessimistic. Every single teen show on tv is filled with sad kids. Without any example to look up to, how could they not be depressed.

true story and it is by design

[KryptonX81]

Its not only the charachters that are contributing to this, it is the atmosphere too. See my thread on page 2 of this board called "the atmosphere on smallville" for more on that.

[puddinpiester]

Primarily, we have come to know the adult Superman. SV is depicting a possible teen version. Yes this teen version does seem to be needy, but he can still become the confident, optomistic, do good Superman we all know and love. And I do agree with the above statement that teens of today seem vulnerable to media pressures and suggestions. But there are far worse shows on TV and in theaters which can be given credit for steering teens down dark roads. Ultimately, in SM, Clark will do the right thing. (Except for the premarital sex thing. Shame on TPTB for celebrating that. Can't go back and undo that. Not without another one of Jor el's crystals.) Actually, I think SV is better than most of upholding traditional values.

[Dangerous George]

Originally posted by puddinpiester
Primarily, we have come to know the adult Superman. SV is depicting a possible teen version. Yes this teen version does seem to be needey, but he can still become the confident, optomistic, do good Superman we all know and love. And I do agree with the above statement that teens of today seem vulnerable to media pressures and suggestions. But there are far worse shows on TV and in theaters which can be given credit for steering teens down dark roads. Ultimately. in SM, Clark will do the right thing. (Except for the premarital sex thing. Shame on TPTB for celebrating that. Can't go back and undo that. Not without another one of Jor el's crystals.) Actually, I think SM is better than most of upholding traditional values.

True, I'll grant you that which is why the direction it's taking now is ....well...how should one put it? Not in its own best interest shall we say, given its history as it were, coupled with that of the legacy of the Man of Steel from Mr. Siegel on down.


peace

[Terrestrial]

Originally posted by puddinpiester
Primarily, we have come to know the adult Superman. SV is depicting a possible teen version. Yes this teen version does seem to be needy, but he can still become the confident, optomistic, do good Superman we all know and love. And I do agree with the above statement that teens of today seem vulnerable to media pressures and suggestions. But there are far worse shows on TV and in theaters which can be given credit for steering teens down dark roads. Ultimately, in SM, Clark will do the right thing. (Except for the premarital sex thing. Shame on TPTB for celebrating that. Can't go back and undo that. Not without another one of Jor el's crystals.) Actually, I think SV is better than most of upholding traditional values.

I have to question this. Superman is not a morally flawed character. Or a dark one. He is and always will be a bright icon of moral virtue.

There is a fundamental difference between unknowingly committing crimes or making careless mistakes and participating directly in irresponsible acts.

This CK has done the latter. REPEATEDLY. He runs from problems into even greater ones and disregards all of the consequences of his actions. He lives in the moment and does not consider the repurcussions of his actions. And he suffers through them.

With a Peter Parker, you forgive the character for the tragedy of Uncle Ben's murder. Yes, PP was careless and selfish. He could have stopped the robber but didn't. And the ramifications of his actions made him a better person, more determined than ever to do the right thing.

CK is so horribly flawed and conflicted, you can't squeeze a Superman out of him. Superman isn't compassionate toward criminals because he's "been there". He acts out of a genuine goodness in the character.

Is it so impossible to believe that a teenager can act responsibly and be better than his peers? Not do drugs or commit criminal acts and rise above it? Not engage in premarital sex? From M&G's standpoint the answer is NO. How ironic that M&G want us to believe a man can fly but cannot walk a moral path.

[Watching Smallville]

Well said.

[Dangerous George]

true story

[puddinpiester]

Terrestrial, valid point. I agree that the darkness seen on SV most likey reflects the darkness in the hearts of Al/Miles. I believe that their main concern is to sell their product, a TV show, and make money. Whereas, I am a Superman fan. I will not allow TPTB take away what that character means to me. To me, the character is Superman. Superman, full of goodness, full of virtue, full of hope that people will do the right thing (even though time and again, people fall short), full of desire to help others, full of moral strength, full of benevolence, etc. That is the hero I look for.

However, I have adored the adult Superman. I have never really known a teenaged CK. I am able to see good in this CK. I really believe that this CK desires to do good. He knows right from wrong. But, I can't help but wonder about the influence those imperfect humans imposed onto Clark. Environment has to have an effect on a person. I, personally, do not know all the life experiences young Clark went through before he was known as Superman. He has yet to come to terms with the essence of who he is. I am not at all convinced that the CK in SV intends to cause harm to anyone. Not wanting to hurt anyone is supermanly. The one who has suffered most from Clark's poor judgement is Clark. (Pa may have died, but I think Clark suffered more.)

I agree that criminal activity should not have been in Clark's path. I also think that he learned vastly from that experience. People loved him in spite of his behavior; he learned to not be judgemental when behavior disappoints. I also seem to remember an adult superman flinging a car with occupants in it when he suffered a jealous moment regarding Lois. As an adult, Superman, on rare occasions, let his less than stellar emotions shine through. But in the end, Superman always, ALWAYS does the right thing. I think SV's Clark will ultimately do the right thing. If not, then Clark/Superman in SV is merely a misnomer.

Ideally, teenagers will be able to make sound moral choices and avoid any and all mistakes. I have yet to meet a perfect person. I've only read about One. I know teenagers who have made horrible mistakes and have risen above those mistakes to become wonderful outstanding adults with good moral standards. It is these people who often can reach out to other teens in ways that only they can. Making mistakes in one's youth does not preclude one from becoming a virtuous, responsible, morally grounded adult. I know that most impressions of Superman have been one of perfection. Relating to perfection and using perfection as your goal, as your role model sometimes leads you to fall short of your expectations. Maybe this is good. I don't know. Failure can be humbling and I choose to think that humility is a good thing.

I would think that a hero with a flawed past would be easier to relate to than one who has never made a mistake. Again, I agree that some of the stuff SV's Clark has been involved in should not have happened. But, I am not ready to write off the character in totality. Not yet. I am waiting for the mature Superman to emerge. I believe he will.

[HalJordan4184]

puddinpiester, your own argument is right now working against you. You pretty much validated, this CK is a failure, and you're waiting around for him to suddenly not be one.

I would completely disagree that Clark learned anything from his escapades. He still wants to avoid all conflict, avoid who and what he is, and be left alone.

[FreakyDroid]

I still hope that the time spent in the PZ will be a moment of self realization. It just pains me seeing him like a headless rooster :D

[myankskent]

Originally posted by FreakyDroid
I still hope that the time spent in the PZ will be a moment of self realization. It just pains me seeing him like a headless rooster :D

To me, the first step that Clark needs to take is to not get involved in any more relationships for a while. He has proven time and time again that he cannot handle them and that his secret only puts the person that he is dating in mortal danger.

[Dangerous George]

Originally posted by myankskent
To me, the first step that Clark needs to take is to not get involved in any more relationships for a while. He has proven time and time again that he cannot handle them and that his secret only puts the person that he is dating in mortal danger.

perhaps even better let's go back and really do a do over and start fresh from the premiere with fresh ideas, fresh writers, ....fresh everything :\ if only it were possible :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: ;) :p :cool:
ain't gonna happen, make too much sense - right now where the show is, is just about par for the course, it has to be given the fact that the helmsmen (TPTB) of this ship don't know the past logs of the voyage that said ship has journeyed, and it is an historical fact that if one does not know where one has come from, how in the name of common sense can one determine where one is going? It's just like someone telling you about a city and its culture that they've never been too. Go figure.

peace

[Terrestrial]

The make or break mark was the Chris Reeve episode.

After that, the show really should have taken off.

It had a sweeping vision then. With CK discovering his heritage in very very small steps.

THAT is where the show fell away and focused only on CK's fear or despite for his heritage. It should have been the opposite. What a tremendous thing to learn who your biological parents actually were, let alone specific information about your alien origins.

The flaws really emerged at this point. Superman really is a synthesis of two worlds. But the BEST not the worst of them. And boy, have we seen the dark side of both.

It's pretty humorous as to what M&G think works for this character. What kind of childhoods did THEY have? LOL

In any event, I agree with Dangerous. This show needs a dream sequence and restart hehe.

[puddinpiester]

Originally posted by HalJordan4184
puddinpiester, your own argument is right now working against you. You pretty much validated, this CK is a failure, and you're waiting around for him to suddenly not be one.

I would completely disagree that Clark learned anything from his escapades. He still wants to avoid all conflict, avoid who and what he is, and be left alone.

HalJordan, good to read from you. I respectfully disagree. I don't think anyone is a failure until their life is over and Clark's/Superman's life is far from over. I just happen to believe that perfection is not a necessity for an individual to be a hero. I think that there are instances other than SV where Clark/Superman behaved in a less than perfect manner. I don't think that SV's Clark is beyond redemption. People grow into what they become. As magnificent as Superman is, was, and will be, he still had to grow. He grew in stature, in power, and in mental strength. He didn't just suddenly wake up one day and decide to be a hero. I believe he never consciously made the decision to be a hero. He is too humble for that. A true hero doesn't have to tell everyone that he is a hero. His/her life in total speaks for itself.

Superman does not rush into conflict. I think he avoids conflict whenever he can. I do not see this as being out of character for young Clark. Superman fights when he has to, but fighting is not his first choice.

Yes, SV's Clark has made some flawed decisions and based on flawed thinking has come to some flawed conclusions. But, in the end Clark's goal is to do what is right for everyone. I have never gotten the impression that SV's Clark wanted anything bad to happen to anyone. He wants others to be safe and happy. He does what he can. He does not consciously decide to do bad things. He just doesn't do that. He put on that red K ring to ease his hurt. I don't think he intended to become a criminal. He could've handled that much better.

Had Jor el communicated more effectively and with complete candor, chances are Clark would have reacted differently. Teens fear the unknown, as do most of us. Clark had a vast unknown to deal with. Clark simply didn't have enough information to make informed decisions. The adult Superman has the knowledge of the universe at his disposal. He trained for several years to get where he is. SV's Clark has not had that luxury. He has had to muttle through life trying to piece together what his place in the world is. Superman is more confident, more relaxed, wiser, and just plain good. He was prepared to be Superman. SV's Clark has not yet been prepared. Considering what he's been through, he had to have had the intestinal fortitude of Superman to get through it and granted he could have made better decisions.

I don't demand perfection from my heros. I find his imperfections interesting and his victory over them admirable.

[Dangerous George]

Originally posted by puddinpiester
HalJordan, good to read from you. I respectfully disagree. I don't think anyone is a failure until their life is over and Clark's/Superman's life is far from over. I just happen to believe that perfection is not a necessity for an individual to be a hero. I think that there are instances other than SV where Clark/Superman behaved in a less than perfect manner. I don't think that SV's Clark is beyond redemption. People grow into what they become. As magnificent as Superman is, was, and will be, he still had to grow. He grew in stature, in power, and in mental strength. He didn't just suddenly wake up one day and decide to be a hero. I believe he never consciously made the decision to be a hero. He is too humble for that. A true hero doesn't have to tell everyone that he is a hero. His/her life in total speaks for itself.

Superman does not rush into conflict. I think he avoids conflict whenever he can. I do not see this as being out of character for young Clark. Superman fights when he has to, but fighting is not his first choice.

Yes, SV's Clark has made some flawed decisions and based on flawed thinking has come to some flawed conclusions. But, in the end Clark's goal is to do what is right for everyone. I have never gotten the impression that SV's Clark wanted anything bad to happen to anyone. He wants others to be safe and happy. He does what he can. He does not consciously decide to do bad things. He just doesn't do that. He put on that red K ring to ease his hurt. I don't think he intended to become a criminal. He could've handled that much better.

Had Jor el communicated more effectively and with complete candor, chances are Clark would have reacted differently. Teens fear the unknown, as do most of us. Clark had a vast unknown to deal with. Clark simply didn't have enough information to make informed decisions. The adult Superman has the knowledge of the universe at his disposal. He trained for several years to get where he is. SV's Clark has not had that luxury. He has had to muttle through life trying to piece together what his place in the world is. Superman is more confident, more relaxed, wiser, and just plain good. He was prepared to be Superman. SV's Clark has not yet been prepared. Considering what he's been through, he had to have had the intestinal fortitude of Superman to get through it and granted he could have made better decisions.

I don't demand perfection from my heros. I find his imperfections interesting and his victory over them admirable.

well you had me going there until the last paragraph - by this I believe is flawed in that the first episode of S5 dealt with the FOS - did it not? He has yet to get his hindquarters up there to get that much needed training, knowledge, etc. in order to be better able to deal with what he has to deal with. This would have been a much more interesting year had he done so. He could have easily outsmarted Lex on several fronts (the same can be said for dealing with the true evil, Brainiac) instead of always coming from behind to get on a level playing field after chloe schools him on what he needs to do of course :lol: . He only goes to the FOS to save Lana? Come on! His actions are unreasonable given what is available to him to assist him in acquiring what he needs to aquit himself in his daily dealings as it were. So on the whole I don't buy it. There is no viable reason for him not to get his butt up to the FOS. Now if you've got a good reason or anybody else for that matter I'd be interested in reading what that is.

sorry for butting in - didn't mean to hijack



peace

[Poweranimals]

Wow! People are way off here. First of all, the story of Superman's childhood is almost non-existent. People who are expecting him to grow up with as a normal teenage life do realize that would counterdict any purpose this show has, right?

Superman has never been defined by having a happy sunshine life. Sure much of the old stuff was portrayed that way, but you're talking about the "I Love Lucy" generation. Smallville has not only taken a new approach by exploring Clark Kent before he became Superman, but has added depth to the character.

Smallville's interpretation of Superman is a tragedy. I don't see that as a bad thing. It adds depth to a once simplistic character. The Lex character also has been given so much depth. His story is filled with so much darkness and irony, yet he is a character that actually desires to be the hero. The Clark/Lana relationship is the ultimate tragedy. By all rights, Clark should end up with Lana, but fate prevents it from happening. Plus the sense of tragedy makes the characters easier to relate to.

But the idea of Superman is a tragedy within itself. Listen to the song from "Five For Fighting". He comes from a planet which was destroyed at his birth. The Animated Series, Superman is used as a weapon by Darkseid - something that puts a lot of guilt on his character. Heck.. even in the previews of Superman Returns, he says something to the effect of.. "It's not easy living my life like this. Keeping secrets." That's a total reflection of the trials that Clark has been presented with in Smallville. That's tragedy.

But who is Superman? Even though Clark has experienced much tragedy, and has made a few errors in judgement, he's still the boyscout. He's still the man of values. In "Vessel", Clark avoids killing Lex even though it could've solved everything, it's his moral fiber that kept him from doing so. Even knowing the kind of person that Lex is.

He overcame a big obstacle in "Vengeance". Although the temptation for revenge was there, Clark followed his father's upbringing and became a better person for it. He gave up college so that he could help out on the farm. He was a great role model to Maddie. In fact, he's always helping people with their problems. In Lexmas with Santa, and helping out both Victor and AC. And it's never been just about using his abilities, but it's been about being a role model to others. He's even the one that convinces Chloe to see her mother despite her fears.

He chose to sacrifice a relationship with someone he loved very much for her best interest. It certainly didn't benefit him any. Clark has a lot of drama in his life and sometimes can be a bit dramatic himself. What teenager isn't? But he still embodies the heroic traits of Superman. I'm not just not understanding all this complaining.

[Dangerous George]

Originally posted by Poweranimals
Wow! People are way off here. First of all, the story of Superman's childhood is almost non-existent. People who are expecting him to grow up with as a normal teenage life do realize that would counterdict any purpose this show has, right?

Superman has never been defined by having a happy sunshine life. Sure much of the old stuff was portrayed that way, but you're talking about the "I Love Lucy" generation. Smallville has not only taken a new approach by exploring Clark Kent before he became Superman, but has added depth to the character.

Smallville's interpretation of Superman is a tragedy. I don't see that as a bad thing. It adds depth to a once simplistic character. The Lex character also has been given so much depth. His story is filled with so much darkness and irony, yet he is a character that actually desires to be the hero. The Clark/Lana relationship is the ultimate tragedy. By all rights, Clark should end up with Lana, but fate prevents it from happening. Plus the sense of tragedy makes the characters easier to relate to.

But the idea of Superman is a tragedy within itself. Listen to the song from "Five For Fighting". He comes from a planet which was destroyed at his birth. The Animated Series, Superman is used as a weapon by Darkseid - something that puts a lot of guilt on his character. Heck.. even in the previews of Superman Returns, he says something to the effect of.. "It's not easy living my life like this. Keeping secrets." That's a total reflection of the trials that Clark has been presented with in Smallville. That's tragedy.

But who is Superman? Even though Clark has experienced much tragedy, and has made a few errors in judgement, he's still the boyscout. He's still the man of values. In "Vessel", Clark avoids killing Lex even though it could've solved everything, it's his moral fiber that kept him from doing so. Even knowing the kind of person that Lex is.

He overcame a big obstacle in "Vengeance". Although the temptation for revenge was there, Clark followed his father's upbringing and became a better person for it. He gave up college so that he could help out on the farm. He was a great role model to Maddie. In fact, he's always helping people with their problems. In Lexmas with Santa, and helping out both Victor and AC. And it's never been just about using his abilities, but it's been about being a role model to others. He's even the one that convinces Chloe to see her mother despite her fears.

He chose to sacrifice a relationship with someone he loved very much for her best interest. It certainly didn't benefit him any. Clark has a lot of drama in his life and sometimes can be a bit dramatic himself. What teenager isn't? But he still embodies the heroic traits of Superman. I'm not just not understanding all this complaining.


Pssst. It's the writing. :cool:

[puddinpiester]

The entirety of Superman boils down to the writing. That's a reason why Superman has taken so many paths. Certain basic elements do not change but the window dressing does change. I think Poweranimals has a valid point about us not really knowing much about Superman's youth.

Clark could have had all that Jor el offered. Clark just didn't really know what Jor el was offering. The great communicator, Jor el is not. The not knowing impeded Clark's acceptance. Jor el was well aware that Clark was deluged with "learned human emotions" (arrival). He did not act to counter that. He merely pointed it out to Clark. Clark, who had no way of differentiating his human emotions from kryptonian influences, was at the mercy of those emotions. Again, Jor el rather that cluing Clark in and explaining what he meant, merely pointed out that Jor el viewed those emotions as a weakness; whereas obviously Clark didn't see things that way. Clark reacted viscerally with the only arsenal he had at that time. That or those reaction(s) flowed from his heart, which is human. The well trained Superman is better equipted to handle adversity, disappointment, and just out right bad things. He handles them with grace, with power and strength (mental as well as physical), and a well honed mind. SV's Clark is not there yet. But, even still, SV's Clark does intend to do what's best. He has to work on the execution.

Again, as Poweranimals said, many times Clark could have sought revenge and personal pleasure, but the superman within kept him in the boy scout troop. Clark lives in SV; not Superman.

[Eckyboy]

It is refreshing to see a thread that is not discussing the Season 5 Cover Art or the Importance of the best kissing scene. This forum seems to be overrun by blind faith followers who would be happy with any episodes of Smallville no matter how bad. I agree with a lot of the posts on this thread. Clark in the latter half of S3 and all the way through S4 and S5 is getting further and further away from the Clark in S1 and S2. Clark has made mistakes sure but for me the biggest problem is he never learns from any of them. Superman is an icon, a symbol he is the person we all hope we could be. It is not his powers that define him it is his decency and compassion. He always strives to do the right thing. In the first two seasons I could believe Clark could become Superman one day. Seasons 4 and 5 have seriously altered my belief. I do not mind Clark on Red K what i do mind is a character that goes round in circles without getting anywhere.

[FreakyDroid]

That's the whole point Eckyboy, I agree with you. CK is supposed to be inspiration for other prople, not only as an adult, but also in his early years. For those who say that we dont know about CK as a teenager, I suggest they pick some comic books in their hands, and then we can talk. Something fresh for example: Birthright from 2003.

[Dangerous George]

Originally posted by puddinpiester
The entirety of Superman boils down to the writing. That's a reason why Superman has taken so many paths. Certain basic elements do not change but the window dressing does change. I think Poweranimals has a valid point about us not really knowing much about Superman's youth.

Clark could have had all that Jor el offered. Clark just didn't really know what Jor el was offering. The great communicator, Jor el is not. The not knowing impeded Clark's acceptance. Jor el was well aware that Clark was deluged with "learned human emotions" (arrival). He did not act to counter that. He merely pointed it out to Clark. Clark, who had no way of differentiating his human emotions from kryptonian influences, was at the mercy of those emotions. Again, Jor el rather that cluing Clark in and explaining what he meant, merely pointed out that Jor el viewed those emotions as a weakness; whereas obviously Clark didn't see things that way. Clark reacted viscerally with the only arsenal he had at that time. That or those reaction(s) flowed from his heart, which is human. The well trained Superman is better equipted to handle adversity, disappointment, and just out right bad things. He handles them with grace, with power and strength (mental as well as physical), and a well honed mind. SV's Clark is not there yet. But, even still, SV's Clark does intend to do what's best. He has to work on the execution.

Again, as Poweranimals said, many times Clark could have sought revenge and personal pleasure, but the superman within kept him in the boy scout troop. Clark lives in SV; not Superman.

Well, I can agree with most of what you've stated here. good post by the way. One problem tho, Clark has lied to just about everybody, even his loving parents who were there for him regardless - the scene regarding the destruction of his ship and the repercussions that followed - his problem is that he has tremendous gifts and coupled with that tremendous obligations - or as Ben Parker told Peter with great power comes great responsiblity or words to the effect - this is true even from a Biblical perspective - for unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required.

After five years it is way past time for Clark to step up to the plate as it were and be a man. In fact to be The Man of Steel. Now how is he to accomplish this? Hanging around Chloe? Lana? Lex? Lois? even Martha? No. The only place where he can achieve that which he desperately needs at this point in the juncture is his bio father's wisdom and training right up there at the FOS - why in the name of common sense introduce the FOS and not utilize its resources that were obviously made for him, just as the legend on the cave walls were a map if you will for him to get from point A to point Z. This is one problem with Smallville - the refusal of Clark to use his full brain power, i.e. get a clue! All the advantages of his innate heritage are just waiting to be downloaded into him - that would allow him to be what? The best that he could possibly be. Is this too early for him to undertake? Then why introduce the FOS? Some might interject, if he goes to the FOS chaos will occur. So what. stuff happens. Again holes that need filling in this show.

peace

[puddinpiester]

Originally posted by Dangerous George
Well, I can agree with most of what you've stated here. good post by the way. One problem tho, Clark has lied to just about everybody, even his loving parents who were there for him regardless - the scene regarding the destruction of his ship and the repercussions that followed - his problem is that he has tremendous gifts and coupled with that tremendous obligations - or as Ben Parker told Peter with great power comes great responsiblity or words to the effect - this is true even from a Biblical perspective - for unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required.

After five years it is way past time for Clark to step up to the plate as it were and be a man. In fact to be The Man of Steel. Now how is he to accomplish this? Hanging around Chloe? Lana? Lex? Lois? even Martha? No. The only place where he can achieve that which he desperately needs at this point in the juncture is his bio father's wisdom and training right up there at the FOS - why in the name of common sense introduce the FOS and not utilize its resources that were obviously made for him, just as the legend on the cave walls were a map if you will for him to get from point A to point Z. This is one problem with Smallville - the refusal of Clark to use his full brain power, i.e. get a clue! All the advantages of his innate heritage are just waiting to be downloaded into him - that would allow him to be what? The best that he could possibly be. Is this too early for him to undertake? Then why introduce the FOS? Some might interject, if he goes to the FOS chaos will occur. So what. stuff happens. Again holes that need filling in this show.

peace

Dangerous George, you speak wise words. I appreciate your Biblical reference. Good arugment for Clark's reluctance to reach full potential when he should be closer than he currently is. I still understand Clark's hesitancy to embrace Jor el at this point. I think that as soon as Clark realizes that Jor el is not an enemy, Clark will come around. Jor el has used some drastic methods to communicate with his son. Maybe Jor el should use some effective means of communication. Clearly, Clark is resisting. Clark has definitely been pig headed about things. Yes he has lied. Many times. But, he doesn't lie to hurt people. He kept things from his parents because he didn't want them to worry. He lied to Lana because he thought he was protecting her. He lies to Lex in self defense. Maybe that is not a good reason to lie, but he doesn't lie to promote himself or to gain riches. There are lots of selfish reasons to lie. I don't get the impression that Clarks lies to be hurtful or selfish.

Clark has yet to tap into his superior brain power. I am not even sure he knows just how intelligent he is or what he is capable of. As long as others are willing to do the thinking for him, he will probably let them do it.

Clark definitely needs to get over his wussy dependence on women. He needs to go to the FOS and receive that downloading. Jor el could be more forthcoming with what he has to offer Clark in terms of the vast knowledge stored in the FOS and in regards to the training Clark has yet to accomplish. I see Clark's situation largely due to Jor el. Even in light of Clark's imperfections, I am not ready to write him off. I do understand the frustrations expressed in this thread. I am not as well versed in the Superman world as most of you. I readily admit that. But, I do not believe that SV's Clark is a mutually exclusive character from Superman.

[azi]

Originally posted by FreakyDroid
I still hope that the time spent in the PZ will be a moment of self realization. It just pains me seeing him like a headless rooster :D Maybe the writers should be put into the Phantom Zone for some self reflection?
Against all odds … I still believe that Smallville / Clark can become the Man of Steel.
Is it just wishful thinking?
I am probably giving the writers too much credit.

[austezie]

i'm still stuck on a superman returns high so i will give my imput after i come back off cloud 9 :)

[Dangerous George]

Originally posted by azi
Maybe the writers should be put into the Phantom Zone for some self reflection?
Against all odds … I still believe that Smallville / Clark can become the Man of Steel.
Is it just wishful thinking?
I am probably giving the writers too much credit.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :p


Originally posted by austezie
i'm still stuck on a superman returns high so i will give my imput after i come back off cloud 9 :)

where's it playing?
was it really cool?
come on give? :confused:

oh wait it opens today. yay


Originally posted by puddinpiester
Dangerous George, you speak wise words. I appreciate your Biblical reference. Good arugment for Clark's reluctance to reach full potential when he should be closer than he currently is. I still understand Clark's hesitancy to embrace Jor el at this point. I think that as soon as Clark realizes that Jor el is not an enemy, Clark will come around. Jor el has used some drastic methods to communicate with his son. Maybe Jor el should use some effective means of communication. Clearly, Clark is resisting. Clark has definitely been pig headed about things. Yes he has lied. Many times. But, he doesn't lie to hurt people. He kept things from his parents because he didn't want them to worry. He lied to Lana because he thought he was protecting her. He lies to Lex in self defense. Maybe that is not a good reason to lie, but he doesn't lie to promote himself or to gain riches. There are lots of selfish reasons to lie. I don't get the impression that Clarks lies to be hurtful or selfish.

Clark has yet to tap into his superior brain power. I am not even sure he knows just how intelligent he is or what he is capable of. As long as others are willing to do the thinking for him, he will probably let them do it.

Clark definitely needs to get over his wussy dependence on women. He needs to go to the FOS and receive that downloading. Jor el could be more forthcoming with what he has to offer Clark in terms of the vast knowledge stored in the FOS and in regards to the training Clark has yet to accomplish. I see Clark's situation largely due to Jor el. Even in light of Clark's imperfections, I am not ready to write him off. I do understand the frustrations expressed in this thread. I am not as well versed in the Superman world as most of you. I readily admit that. But, I do not believe that SV's Clark is a mutually exclusive character from Superman.

thank you.

I hope that the show will reach it's obvious potential - the only thing in the way may be: budget, lawsuit, writing, writing, writing, ratings, ratings, . . . :\

[Poweranimals]

Originally posted by Dangerous George
Well, I can agree with most of what you've stated here. good post by the way. One problem tho, Clark has lied to just about everybody, even his loving parents who were there for him regardless - the scene regarding the destruction of his ship and the repercussions that followed - his problem is that he has tremendous gifts and coupled with that tremendous obligations - or as Ben Parker told Peter with great power comes great responsiblity or words to the effect - this is true even from a Biblical perspective - for unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required. Clark has lied to people for good reason though. To protect himself and others. He's seen what the burden of his secret did to Pete. When he tried again to tell Lana the truth, her life was put at risk. He's lied to his parents to keep them from worrying. With Lex, it's pretty obvious that he can't really be trusted.

The destruction of the ship was a mistake, but an understandable one at that. Jor-El came off as a threat to Clark who wanted him to conquer the human race. Obviously he didn't realize the effect his actions would have. I mean, how could he have?


After five years it is way past time for Clark to step up to the plate as it were and be a man. In fact to be The Man of Steel. Now how is he to accomplish this? Hanging around Chloe? Lana? Lex? Lois? even Martha? No. The only place where he can achieve that which he desperately needs at this point in the juncture is his bio father's wisdom and training right up there at the FOS - why in the name of common sense introduce the FOS and not utilize its resources that were obviously made for him, just as the legend on the cave walls were a map if you will for him to get from point A to point Z. This is one problem with Smallville - the refusal of Clark to use his full brain power, i.e. get a clue! All the advantages of his innate heritage are just waiting to be downloaded into him - that would allow him to be what? The best that he could possibly be. Is this too early for him to undertake? Then why introduce the FOS? Some might interject, if he goes to the FOS chaos will occur. So what. stuff happens. Again holes that need filling in this show. Still though, Clark has been very leary about Jor-El. Why would he return to the Fortress? He doesn't really trust him. Everytime he has searched for more of his Kryptonian heritage, it only brought out chaos. It's pretty much been a battle of Kryptonians vs humans. Look at how easily he believed what Professor Fine had told him about Jor-El. It was easy to believe based on what he's been exposed to so far.

People seem to keep blaming Clark for everything that goes wrong in his life. It's not his fault. He just has bad luck most of the time. And Jor-El hasn't been the best at communicating good intentions for Clark.

[Dangerous George]

Originally posted by Poweranimals
Clark has lied to people for good reason though. To protect himself and others. He's seen what the burden of his secret did to Pete. When he tried again to tell Lana the truth, her life was put at risk. He's lied to his parents to keep them from worrying. With Lex, it's pretty obvious that he can't really be trusted.

The destruction of the ship was a mistake, but an understandable one at that. Jor-El came off as a threat to Clark who wanted him to conquer the human race. Obviously he didn't realize the effect his actions would have. I mean, how could he have?

Still though, Clark has been very leary about Jor-El. Why would he return to the Fortress? He doesn't really trust him. Everytime he has searched for more of his Kryptonian heritage, it only brought out chaos. It's pretty much been a battle of Kryptonians vs humans. Look at how easily he believed what Professor Fine had told him about Jor-El. It was easy to believe based on what he's been exposed to so far.

People seem to keep blaming Clark for everything that goes wrong in his life. It's not his fault. He just has bad luck most of the time. And Jor-El hasn't been the best at communicating good intentions for Clark. [/B]

You make good points.

Let me say it this way, when Lana bought the farm there in Reckoning? He did not hesitate to get his hindquarters up there to FOS to talk to good ole bio dad. Now, if he had that kind of knowledge, faith, trust in bio pop to do the right thing, why in the name of common sense did he not go much earlier in the arc of this season? He no doubt could of access his alien knowledge which no doubt far exceeds what we mere mortals here are capable to hear Brainiac tell it. This is the problem that I have with the show- if memory serves correctly, in the past of the mythos everytime Clark went into the FOS for the first time he stayed there until he came out as the Man of Steel, I believe that this is correct. If not someone set this right. I will take my answer off the air. ;)

peace

[puddinpiester]

Originally posted by Dangerous George


thank you.

I hope that the show will reach it's obvious potential - the only thing in the way may be: budget, lawsuit, writing, writing, writing, ratings, ratings, . . . :\

You're welcome.

And thanks for this lovely and very encourging little comment. :( Sadly, I fear you are correct

[Poweranimals]

Originally posted by Dangerous George
You make good points.

Let me say it this way, when Lana bought the farm there in Reckoning? He did not hesitate to get his hindquarters up there to FOS to talk to good ole bio dad. Now, if he had that kind of knowledge, faith, trust in bio pop to do the right thing, why in the name of common sense did he not go much earlier in the arc of this season? He no doubt could of access his alien knowledge which no doubt far exceeds what we mere mortals here are capable to hear Brainiac tell it. This is the problem that I have with the show- if memory serves correctly, in the past of the mythos everytime Clark went into the FOS for the first time he stayed there until he came out as the Man of Steel, I believe that this is correct. If not someone set this right. I will take my answer off the air. ;)

peace Well I don't think it's a matter of "I trust you to do the right thing." in Reckoning. It was out of desperation mostly. In deleted scenes, he took Johnathan Kent there as well. Not sure if that'll be shown on the DVD's or not.

Clark spending years training in the FOS was only in the movie I think. Besides, it's something a little unbelievable anyway. At least the way the movie handled it. Once Clark learns all Kryptonian knowledge, he's probably set to become Superman anyway. At that point, the show ends.

[Watching Smallville]

Originally posted by Terrestrial
The make or break mark was the Chris Reeve episode.

After that, the show really should have taken off.

It had a sweeping vision then. With CK discovering his heritage in very very small steps.

THAT is where the show fell away and focused only on CK's fear or despite for his heritage. It should have been the opposite. What a tremendous thing to learn who your biological parents actually were, let alone specific information about your alien origins.

The flaws really emerged at this point. Superman really is a synthesis of two worlds. But the BEST not the worst of them. And boy, have we seen the dark side of both.

It's pretty humorous as to what M&G think works for this character. What kind of childhoods did THEY have? LOL

In any event, I agree with Dangerous. This show needs a dream sequence and restart hehe. I'm really agreeing with your POV on this thread, Terrestrial. You're speaking my thoughts.

[KryptonX81]

For me, when the second meteor shower rained down apon Smallville, it marked the ending of the glory days.

Since then the show has been downhill.

But it really hit rock bottom when John Kent died. Since then the show has been digging.

Digging its own grave.

[Watching Smallville]

Originally posted by puddinpiester
Again, as Poweranimals said, many times Clark could have sought revenge and personal pleasure, but the superman within kept him in the boy scout troop. Clark lives in SV; not Superman. I think Exile shows just the opposite. Clark very selfishly clung to that red ring even after he had removed it and realized the damage he was doing in Metropolis. He did seek personal pleasure at others' expense. He was not a Boy Scout.

I'm a little behind here on the posts -- sorry about that.

There are times when I just don't see this Clark as the Superman Clark. He's the Al/Miles Clark. And in those times, the show loses me. It just does. And that's my issue. I don't like the feeling of being there and not there. But some aspects of the Al/Miles Clark I just have to let go.

[Kryptonian Snake]

Originally posted by Poweranimals
Still though, Clark has been very leary about Jor-El. Why would he return to the Fortress? He doesn't really trust him. Everytime he has searched for more of his Kryptonian heritage, it only brought out chaos. It's pretty much been a battle of Kryptonians vs humans. Look at how easily he believed what Professor Fine had told him about Jor-El. It was easy to believe based on what he's been exposed to so far.

People seem to keep blaming Clark for everything that goes wrong in his life. It's not his fault. He just has bad luck most of the time. And Jor-El hasn't been the best at communicating good intentions for Clark. [/B]
Actually, chaos usually ensues when Clark disobeys Jor-El and runs from his heritage. Season 4 should have been a turning point. Clark willingly sought out Jor-El in Sacred and Jor-El warned him about the consequences of leaving the stones fall into human hands. In Commencement we saw Jor-El's warning fulfilled in the form of the meteor shower. Jor-El is definitely cold, manipulative, overbearing bastard, but he still would have been a valuable resource to help stop the threat posed by Fine. It's similar to the way Lionel helped Clark in Bound and gave Chloe the tip about Fine in Solitude. Had Lionel's information been ignored in those instances, Lex would be dead or wrongly imprisoned, and Clark would probably be dead.

[Dangerous George]

Originally posted by Poweranimals
Well I don't think it's a matter of "I trust you to do the right thing." in Reckoning. It was out of desperation mostly. In deleted scenes, he took Johnathan Kent there as well. Not sure if that'll be shown on the DVD's or not.

Clark spending years training in the FOS was only in the movie I think. Besides, it's something a little unbelievable anyway. At least the way the movie handled it. Once Clark learns all Kryptonian knowledge, he's probably set to become Superman anyway. At that point, the show ends.

exactly, it is better to end on a good note than to drag it out with fillers and gaping plot holes - lose the fan base that way.

peace


Originally posted by KryptonX81
For me, when the second meteor shower rained down apon Smallville, it marked the ending of the glory days.

Since then the show has been downhill.

But it really hit rock bottom when John Kent died. Since then the show has been digging.

Digging its own grave.

word


Originally posted by Watching Smallville
I think Exile shows just the opposite. Clark very selfishly clung to that red ring even after he had removed it and realized the damage he was doing in Metropolis. He did seek personal pleasure at others' expense. He was not a Boy Scout.

I'm a little behind here on the posts -- sorry about that.

There are times when I just don't see this Clark as the Superman Clark. He's the Al/Miles Clark. And in those times, the show loses me. It just does. And that's my issue. I don't like the feeling of being there and not there. But some aspects of the Al/Miles Clark I just have to let go.

true story


Originally posted by Kryptonian Snake
Actually, chaos usually ensues when Clark disobeys Jor-El and runs from his heritage. Season 4 should have been a turning point. Clark willingly sought out Jor-El in Sacred and Jor-El warned him about the consequences of leaving the stones fall into human hands. In Commencement we saw Jor-El's warning fulfilled in the form of the meteor shower. Jor-El is definitely cold, manipulative, overbearing bastard, but he still would have been a valuable resource to help stop the threat posed by Fine. It's similar to the way Lionel helped Clark in Bound and gave Chloe the tip about Fine in Solitude. Had Lionel's information been ignored in those instances, Lex would be dead or wrongly imprisoned, and Clark would probably be dead.

yep

[puddinpiester]

Originally posted by Watching Smallville
I think Exile shows just the opposite. Clark very selfishly clung to that red ring even after he had removed it and realized the damage he was doing in Metropolis. He did seek personal pleasure at others' expense. He was not a Boy Scout.



I see your point. I noticed that when he did remove that ring there in the phone booth, the first thing he did was to phone home. The guilt he felt and the pain in his heart was palpable. I think he truly believed that his parents were better off without him. I'm sure he was thinking-I trashed the farm, I killed my sibling, my dad hates me (acted like I was an alien), I caused my mom to get hurt, I screwed up things with Lana, etc. When he "sobbered up" by removing that ring, his irrational thinking took hold only to convince him that staying away from SV was the best thing for everyone he loved. The only way he could stay away was with some help. Red K. And we all know that when Clark is on Red K, he is uninhibited and just plain not nice. In fact I am not even sure he realizes the damage he does while he is on Red K. It's only after he removes that he becomes more rational. Superman would not choose to be on Red K, knowing its effects. But, obviously young Clark would. I do believe that Clark learned that running away and running wild were not good choices. He pretty said this to Bart and to Alicia. So yes, I think Clark learned from this mistake. Granted, a slow learning curve.

[Dangerous George]

Originally posted by puddinpiester
I see your point. I noticed that when he did remove that ring there in the phone booth, the first thing he did was to phone home. The guilt he felt and the pain in his heart was palpable. I think he truly believed that his parents were better off without him. I'm sure he was thinking-I trashed the farm, I killed my sibling, my dad hates me (acted like I was an alien), I caused my mom to get hurt, I screwed up things with Lana, etc. When he "sobbered up" by removing that ring, his irrational thinking took hold only to convince him that staying away from SV was the best thing for everyone he loved. The only way he could stay away was with some help. Red K. And we all know that when Clark is on Red K, he is uninhibited and just plain not nice. In fact I am not even sure he realizes the damage he does while he is on Red K. It's only after he removes that he becomes more rational. Superman would not choose to be on Red K, knowing its effects. But, obviously young Clark would. I do believe that Clark learned that running away and running wild were not good choices. He pretty said this to Bart and to Alicia. So yes, I think Clark learned from this mistake. Granted, a slow learning curve.

very slow

[Watching Smallville]

Originally posted by puddinpiester
I'm sure he was thinking-I trashed the farm, I killed my sibling, my dad hates me (acted like I was an alien), I caused my mom to get hurt, I screwed up things with Lana, etc. Yes -- dramatic, traumatic, depressing consequences that I found shocking, which is what Al/Miles are always going for. The shock and the big scene. For me, this kind of story is a detour. Rosetta is where I am with SV. I'm not saying Exodus isn't a great episode. I just end up thinking to myself -- okay, this isn't young Superman any more. This is Smallville CK.


Originally posted by puddinpiester
When he "sobbered up" by removing that ring, his irrational thinking took hold only to convince him that staying away from SV was the best thing for everyone he loved. Yes, again. The irrational Clark is a great story generator for SV. He's also a very different Clark from the one we started out with. He's the thing that pushes SV out of Superman territory and into the Al/Miles realm.


Originally posted by puddinpiester
Superman would not choose to be on Red K, knowing its effects. But, obviously young Clark would. I'd say, Clark Kent would not choose to be on Red K, but Al/Miles Clark would. Again, it doesn't mean that Exile isn't a great episode. It's one of my favorites. But I think of it more as a Tom Welling episode than a Clark Kent episode. Leech is a Clark Kent episode.

I guess it boils down to whether we consider what Clark says at the end of Red to be in character or not. He says on Red K he feels like he can do whatever he wants, and those feelings haven't gone away. He feels like he's two people. Once you buy into that, then episodes like Exile make sense. But that's when I started to wonder whether the Al/Miles Clark really represented my idea of Superman.

Granted, any creator is entitled to their own interpretation. I just find this one problematic.

Great post, by the way.

[puddinpiester]

Originally posted by Watching Smallville

Yes, again. The irrational Clark is a great story generator for SV. He's also a very different Clark from the one we started out with. He's the thing that pushes SV out of Superman territory and into the Al/Miles realm.

Great post, by the way.

Thank you.

Yes, irrational Clark does seem to please Al/Miles. Too bad for them and us.

However, I would like to say that the Clark Kent in season one met us under somewhat different circumstances than the one put before us now. Until he was a freshman in high school, he didn't even know that he was an alien. He just knew he was different. Even after he discovered his unearthly origins, he was still unaware of anything pertaining to Jor el. As he learned more and more about Jor el and what Clark interpreted Jor el's intentions to be, he concluded that Jor el's way was not for him. I can understand this. He thought Jor el wanted him to be a warrior conquerer type fellow. Clark did not want that life. You and I know that Clark misunderstood Jor el's intent. Jor el, being the superior intelligence that he is, certainly could have explained himself better.

In any event, many if not all of Clarks (except that Lana stuff) can be traced to Clark's misinterpretation of Jor el. This is my own thinking, but if Clark is already perfect and has nothing to gain in terms of maturation, then Clark becoming Superman is a moot point. He should go ahead on don the blue tights. I like seeing the developmental process involved in the Clark to Superman saga. Granted, Al/Miles may be channeling some of their own weaknesses/ personal issues through SV. I really think they are just trying to sell their product. Trouble is they could have a great product if their thinking wasn't so warped. A great product would sell better than one which is merely mediocre (or worse).

BTW, I like the episodes you mention as well.

[Watching Smallville]

Originally posted by puddinpiester
In any event, many if not all of Clarks (except that Lana stuff) can be traced to Clark's misinterpretation of Jor el. This is my own thinking, but if Clark is already perfect and has nothing to gain in terms of maturation, then Clark becoming Superman is a moot point. He should go ahead on don the blue tights. I like seeing the developmental process involved in the Clark to Superman saga. Granted, Al/Miles may be channeling some of their own weaknesses/ personal issues through SV. I really think they are just trying to sell their product. Trouble is they could have a great product if their thinking wasn't so warped. A great product would sell better than one which is merely mediocre (or worse). I agree with you on the development. That's the interesting part of the show. And I'm not saying Clark should be gung ho about his heritage, either. I'm just at odds with the way SVCK handles his rejection of his heritage.

In Season 1 we have the struggle between Clark wanting to be normal and accepting that he isn't normal. That's still going on, and that's an interesting struggle. I think the "accepting Jor-El" struggle could be just as interesting without compromising the character. I don't see the need to push the Clark Kent character so far over the edge. And it is over the edge in many respects, where a normal decent teenaged boy would not go. And I think we have to have that as the starting point with Clark Kent. We have to have at least a decent kid on our hands.

Saying he's a teenager, to me, is not justification for some of the things SVCK does, because I know plenty of confused teenagers who draw very moral lines every day. I think that would be a much more interesting development to watch. JMHO.

I'm conflicted, because I do love the show. But at some point, it stopped being about young Superman for me.

[Terrestrial]

I agree Watching. Nice post.

This is more like "Bizarro SV"

[austezie]

I agree. When i watch Smallville i admmediately push any current or past knowledge of superman mythology out of my head so i won't get a tumor from confusion. Al and miles have the potential to write good (ala spiderman 2) but for some reason they have royally farced up Smallville. They start good and then go down hill.

[Dangerous George]

Originally posted by Watching Smallville
I agree with you on the development. That's the interesting part of the show. And I'm not saying Clark should be gung ho about his heritage, either. I'm just at odds with the way SVCK handles his rejection of his heritage.

In Season 1 we have the struggle between Clark wanting to be normal and accepting that he isn't normal. That's still going on, and that's an interesting struggle. I think the "accepting Jor-El" struggle could be just as interesting without compromising the character. I don't see the need to push the Clark Kent character so far over the edge. And it is over the edge in many respects, where a normal decent teenaged boy would not go. And I think we have to have that as the starting point with Clark Kent. We have to have at least a decent kid on our hands.

Saying he's a teenager, to me, is not justification for some of the things SVCK does, because I know plenty of confused teenagers who draw very moral lines every day. I think that would be a much more interesting development to watch. JMHO.

I'm conflicted, because I do love the show. But at some point, it stopped being about young Superman for me.

true story