UK Views

[berry392]

well the season is finally over, and its been a mixed season to be honest with highs and lows.

Just watched the last episode "Vessle" and to honest, although it was good, I was still expecting a bit more. dont get me wrong, a very strong episode, i just thought it lacked a bit in places.

I mean, Clark has the chance to kill lex, but then turns around and throws the knife at Fine, ending in the gateway being open for Zah to return. Just do as your father says, and kill lex, dont fanny around and stab Fine.

And what a way to end the show with clark floating around in space trapped inside that crystal thing. will he get out? will he stop Zah? now we have to wait so long to find out.

i cant wait.

[Wiccan_Chloe]

that crystal thing was the Phantom Zone- of course he has to get out... what's Smallville without Clark Kent?

but I must say- cliffhanger of the century! Clark in the Phantom Zone, Zod with an unsuspecting Lana, Chloe and Lionel caught in the riots and Martha and Lois trapped in a wayward jet. I can't wait for S6!

I agree- there could have been a bit more in the episode *coughs*Chlark*coughs*, but it was a good finale.

I probably would have done what Clark did- he still cares about Lex, and he couldn't do that to him. Also, killing Lex would mean losing Lana forever. He probably thought killing Fine would save Lex and prevent Zod from coming. A plan that did not work. Whoops.

[Sider]

Did anyone else notice the shooting star above Lex's mansion just before clark burst in?

[ramjeetp]

I agree I was expecting more from the season finale as well but to be honest I could not have done a better job hehe...

The cliffhangers had me gobsmacked and kinda sad as well but I really think the makers have the chance to make the best opening episodes for season 6 now!!! Season 4 and 5 openers were very good but Season 6 has to be the most anticipated now?! I just can't believe how long we have to wait! I think I will just watch the previous seasons again.

I have a few slight questions with the storyline though. I just wondered what you all thought about Zod appearing in Smallville? Zod and his two followers starred in Superman 2 with Christopher Reeve. That was when Clark Kent/ Superman was in the age of about 30. So why have the creators brought Zod into the Smallville now? Does it mean in Smallville Zod survives somehow, maybe get trapped in the Phantom Zone again? (I am trying not to be spoilery here)

Also was it explained why Zod needed a Vessel to get released as in episode 8 (Solitude), he was nearly released in his own body? I am guessing because Clark foiled Fine's plan in that episode, the storyline changed and the Vessel storyline came about.

We know Clark will get released somehow, maybe with the help of Jor-El or even Lion-El? How will Lois and Martha get saved? Will we finally see Clark fly??? The creators did say they are going to explore what happens to someone trapped in the Phantom Zone.


posted by Sider
Did anyone else notice the shooting star above Lex's mansion just before clark burst in?

I noticed that shooting star, do you reckon it symbolised anything? Just like the scenes with the sunsets in previous episodes?

[Sider]

Maybe it was Zod! or might have just looked nice...

[love_sv]

Wow, wow, wow to this episode! It's left me with so many questions, like how will Clark escape the phantom zone? How will everyone be rescued? I also have a few questions about the characters' actions, like why Clark decided to throw the knife at Fine. It's caused much more trouble! Oh well. Plus, Clark just stood there for Lex/Zod to throw him into the Phantom Zone!

I noticed the shooting star too but I don't know what it means.

But even in the midst of all the tension of a blinding Smallville Finale, we can delight in the Clark and Chloe kiss! Finally! :) Like an oasis of cool, refreshing water in a desert.

[Krypto500]

Originally posted by berry392
Just watched the last episode "Vessle" and to honest, although it was good, I was still expecting a bit more. dont get me wrong, a very strong episode, i just thought it lacked a bit in places.

You're not alone, berry392, a lot of people seem to have been disappointed with "Vessel". Maybe part of it's that the story arcs weren't properly set up beforehand. We hadn't seen enough of Fine, the Lex-as-the-vessel concept came out of nowhere, and Lana is now ... definitely ... the REPTILIAN SHE-BEAST! :rotfl:

Despite all of that, I've got to say I agree with love_sv - "WOW!" is the only thing that can sum it up.

Special effects and stunts were amazing: the exploding dirt in the field, Lionel being thrown 100ft by Lex, Clark catching a car through a window, the Clark/Lex scrap in the barn, the chaos in Metropolis ... some of the best sequences of the series.

Like everyone says, brilliant cliffhangers: all the characters get their own respective 'corners' of the story, and that's a lot of stuff to resolve at the start of S6. The Lois/Martha story in particular seems like something that will be very challenging to solve, given they're (apparently) headed to the middle of nowhere and about to asphyxiate.

For me, though, it was the Clark-Lex interaction that made it without a doubt the best episode of the season, and possibly one of the best of the series. That scene in the barn where Lex confronts Clark about how he lies "ALL THE TIME - to me, to Lana, to all the people who cared about you". Rosenbaum portrayed the changes in character incredibly the whole episode, but that scene in particular was pure magic. One of the great moments on the show ... just can't gush enough about how awesome it was.


Originally posted by ramjeetp
I just wondered what you all thought about Zod appearing in Smallville? Zod and his two followers starred in Superman 2 with Christopher Reeve. That was when Clark Kent/ Superman was in the age of about 30. So why have the creators brought Zod into the Smallville now?

Hi ramjeetp! ;)

I think it's just one of the creative liberties the show is taking, along with Lex and Lois knowing Clark before Metropolis and Jor-El being totally un-Jor-El-like compared with previous incarnations. It fits the story to have Krypton's great villain on the show intending "mass destruction and world domination", to quote Chloe. Yeah, it breaks with continuity, but if it serves the show I for one don't see it as such a bad thing.

While we're on the subject of Superman II, did anyone get the reference to the uninjured hand? Superman II: Lois astonished that Clark's hand isn't scorched by the fire; "Vessel": Lana astonished that Lex's hand isn't wounded by a bullet. Nice throw to the classic films there, guys.

And yes, the Chlark kiss ... Ah, now that was a beautiful character moment! :D

[berry392]

just wanted to add, how the hell did lionel survive been thrown liek that into a car windscreen, and just have a nasty cut on his face, and the fact the screen didnt even break. surely at the speed he was thrown, the glass would have shattered and he would be dead

but it wouldnt be a bad thing if he did die, cos the whole thing with him and Martha is creeping me out. nobdy wants to see that relationship blossom (well i dont anyway).

[Krypto500]

:rotfl:

Agreed, it would have killed Lionel on impact.

That he rolled off the car, got up and carried on talking to Lex is actually kind of funny ... you know, in that twisted slapstick kind of way. :lol:

The only possible explanation that I can think of is Jor-El's possession of him; could it be that, along with the speed and strength when Jor-El is controlling him, Lionel's also been imbued with some kind of 'life force' that will protect him?

I dunno ... grasping at straws there for a plausible way to justify it. I agree, it was probably the weakest moment of the episode.

Don't say Lionel needs to die, though, he and John Glover are one of the best things about the show!

On Lionartha: absolutely, the show needs to END IT NOW!! And the scene in the plane where Lois is basically spurring Martha on to have a relationship with him?!? Horrible ... just horrible. :lol:

What do you think about Martha's denial of it, though? Do you think it's possible that she'd ever relent and enter into a relationship with him? I still say no, especially after Fine-as-Jonathan brought up that question in "Oracle" and she assured him that it was impossible.

Apparently, though, (and I hope no one will mind this tiny spoiler), Season 6 is supposed to show Martha being 'corrupted' by Lionel. The dark side is going to be brought out in everyone. Meaning Lionartha may have some life in it yet.

[berry392]

i think martha dosnt want to go out with lionel because of the reaction clark mgith have with it all. but saying that, over the past few episodes, the relationship between clark and lionel i think is growing stronger. maybe clark would be ok with it all. who knows.

[Krypto500]

Originally posted by berry392
i think martha dosnt want to go out with lionel because of the reaction clark mgith have with it all ...

I see your point. Do you think it's Clark primarily that Martha's thinking of? I think that's part of it, but it's also about Martha's respect for the memory of Jonathan and about Martha being able to live with herself. As people have mentioned in other threads, Lionel is more or less Jonathan's lifelong enemy. By allowing herself to be taken in by Lionel's charm, Martha would feel as if she was betraying Jonathan.


Originally posted by berr392
... but saying that, over the past few episodes, the relationship between clark and lionel i think is growing stronger. maybe clark would be ok with it all. who knows.

Perhaps. The Jor-El thing plays a part in it; would Clark want his mother to be in a relationship with a man who's being controlled by Clark's tyrannical father? Kind of scary to think about what Lion-El is capable of, and I'm not sure Clark would want that threat near Martha.

But then, like you say, the Clark/Lionel bond is apprently now supposed to be quite 'father-son'-like. Lionel's dialogue in "Vessel" - "Let me help you Clark, please", and "Don't underestimate me, son". Definitely a paternal role emerging there.

[berry392]

but maybe martha has realised that jonathan has gone now, and so she should move on, and the fact that Lionel is there for her, and is comforting her makes her feel more easy to move on (if you get what i mean)

[Lex Dance]

What's going on?! 12 posts and the thread so far down the list? :eek:
Surely the UK viewers have opinions to voice/developments to celebrate/frustrations to vent? :p
I wasn't around to post on Oracle - suffice to say I enjoyed it. So much has happened in the final two episodes that I'm getting confused between them. Maybe that's not such a bad thing, considering the episodes were linked with the "to be continued" line. Vessel I enjoyed even more, but I can't help feeling mixed emotions about the episode as 'finale'. I've been trying to figure out why it didn't grab me in the way that other finales have done. This is not a criticism of the episode by any means - there were plenty of good cliff-hangers after all - but for some reason I'm not feeling empty that I'll have to wait until January for the next episode. Maybe I'm getting old!:lol:
Perhaps part of this nagging feeling is due to seeing Clark in the Phantom Zone on this site's homepage. I'm sure I would have found out beforehand anyway - what with avatars and other US posts - but this would have been one of those "Wow!" moments had I not already seen the image.
Nevermind - I still thought it was a very good episode. Best bits? As always each one was down to the fantastic Michael Rosenbaum! That moment in the field when he realised what it meant to possess Kryptonian powers was amazing. The way he revealed these to Lana (in a very un-Clark way) equally so. And then his confrontation with Clark.......you can't top that! My favourite scene EVER in Smallville has always been Lex witnessing Clark's powers in Shattered, mainly because he is so in awe of him. But here Lex positively despised Clark for his unwillingness to share his secret. For me this signified just how broken down their relationship/friendship has become. I think the scene was made more complex by the fact that Lex wasn't saying "Look what you could achieve with power like this", if anything Lex was castigating Clark for not sharing his gift with the one's he supposedly loves. Michael Rosenbaum and the producers have taken such care with the three-dimensionality of Lex that actually his first thoughts on receiving these powers were not "Well now I can take over the world", but actually "I've been given a gift and the possibilities are endless". I think this was very evident in both Lex's expressions in the field and his decision to share his new-found knowledge with someone else (ie Lana).
I like the idea of Lex as Zod - mainly because it will give MB the chance to be truly evil, but also because it's a story arc that could develop well into S6 (assuming he's not excorcised and everything turns out fine by the end of the S6 premiere ;) ). I'd like to see Zod maintain the guise of Lex but then again I hope it doesn't become one of the main reasons for Lex's descent into evil-doing. This would not do justice to the hard work that has been put into making us believe that Lex's character goes bad due to decisions HE has made.
There were parts of the episode which I didn't think were done so well, but I'll forgive these (as I always do!) due to the fantastic developments in the Lex/Clark storyline.
One more thing - get in Chloe! No doubt entering into a relationship with Clark will signal her eventual demise, however I've been waiting for her to kiss him ever since the S1 finale - in compos mentis that is! :D

[Krypto500]

Hey Lex Dance ...


Originally posted by Lex Dance
... Vessel I enjoyed even more, but I can't help feeling mixed emotions about the episode as 'finale' ...

Everyone seems to feel this way except me. Am I the only one who thought it was the best season finale since "Exodus"? :(


Perhaps part of this nagging feeling is due to seeing Clark in the Phantom Zone on this site's homepage. I'm sure I would have found out beforehand anyway - what with avatars and other US posts - but this would have been one of those "Wow!" moments had I not already seen the image.

:lol: This is true, the surprise was taken out of it. But then, there was more to the episode than that; in a way, how Clark wound up in the PZ and how well it was written were more important to me than the bare storyline.


Best bits? As always each one was down to the fantastic Michael Rosenbaum! That moment in the field when he realised what it meant to possess Kryptonian powers was amazing.

It says a lot that the first thing Lex did with his powers was throw Lionel at a few hundred mph into a windscreen. :rotfl: There's probably some kind of Freudian subtext there.


The way he revealed these to Lana (in a very un-Clark way) equally so.

Yeah, people don't seem to give this bullet-in-the-hand scene enough credit IMHO. The way the smoke is coming from the gun in front of Lex, the expression on Lex's face - a mixture of reflection and "Wow, what are the possibilities? ..." Thought MR did that very well.


And then his confrontation with Clark.......you can't top that!

Absolutely. My posts earlier in the thread echo this; one of the best scenes in the series in my view. "Ever since that day on the bridge, you've always seen yourself as my saviour; the one thing that would pull me off the dark path I had started ... You don't wanna face the fact that you might have failed." Brilliant, just brilliant. Flawlessly written and acted by both MR and TW; loved it.


... here Lex positively despised Clark for his unwillingness to share his secret. For me this signified just how broken down their relationship/friendship has become ...

Yes. It'll be interesting to see how Zod-in-Lex, or Zex, conceals his powers. He might hide them just as Clark does, or he might make a grand show of his strength and physical superiority as part of his plan to conquer.


I think the scene was made more complex by the fact that Lex wasn't saying "Look what you could achieve with power like this", if anything Lex was castigating Clark for not sharing his gift with the one's he supposedly loves.

Sharp distinction - I hadn't thought of that. Definitely adds layers to the character rather than making him a one-dimensional villain. In a way, it also echoes Luthor's words from "Superman Returns": "Gods are silly little beings who fly around with red capes and don't share their powers with mankind."


I like the idea of Lex as Zod - mainly because it will give MB the chance to be truly evil, but also because it's a story arc that could develop well into S6 (assuming he's not excorcised and everything turns out fine by the end of the S6 premiere ;) ).

I like the idea too. My only gripe - as I've ranted in other threads - is that it feels like this arc is being used as a means to villify Lex. That, to me, feels like 'cheating'. Lex should have been able to turn into the villain without the writers needing to put the ultimate Kryptonian villain inside Lex's body to 'help' him along.


I'd like to see Zod maintain the guise of Lex but then again I hope it doesn't become one of the main reasons for Lex's descent into evil-doing. This would not do justice to the hard work that has been put into making us believe that Lex's character goes bad due to decisions HE has made.

Exactly.


There were parts of the episode which I didn't think were done so well, but I'll forgive these (as I always do!) due to the fantastic developments in the Lex/Clark storyline.

As a big fan of "Vessel", I'm curious to know what you didn't like!


One more thing - get in Chloe! No doubt entering into a relationship with Clark will signal her eventual demise, however I've been waiting for her to kiss him ever since the S1 finale - in compos mentis that is! :D

:rotfl:

Well, like many I'm not convinced this is the start of a romantic relationship. I saw it more as an expression of the 'love' they have as friends than a prelude to Chlark. Would be delightful to see them together as a couple, though, wouldn't it?

[psycosis]

Hi guys, sorry again for the late arrival, my net connection was down the last few days.


Originally posted by Krypto500
Everyone seems to feel this way except me. Am I the only one who thought it was the best season finale since "Exodus"? :(

No! I absolutely thought it lived up to those excellent trailers we saw – great visuals, great story, and great character interaction, what wasn’t there to like? As you previously stated the weak point of such a strong story was it was thrown on us and there was no real build up before hand in the previous eps.


Originally posted by Krypto500
:lol: This is true, the surprise was taken out of it. But then, there was more to the episode than that; in a way, how Clark wound up in the PZ and how well it was written were more important to me than the bare storyline.

I agree, though this was a big mistake by KryptonSite – I hope they don’t mind the small criticism, but bear more thought for the rest of us that haven’t seen the ep in the future, there are enough Superman savvy posters here to recognise what a particular image might mean. I also thought the PZ SFX was very well done and would like to say it was one of the best endings ever seen!


Originally posted by Krypto500
Yeah, people don't seem to give this bullet-in-the-hand scene enough credit IMHO. The way the smoke is coming from the gun in front of Lex, the expression on Lex's face - a mixture of reflection and "Wow, what are the possibilities? ..." Thought MR did that very well.

Love that whole scene – the expression between Lex and Lana, as well as the possibilities, there seemed to be a slight wonder at if anything could stop him. It also made me wonder since Lex is human and the vessal for Zod will he be immune to Kryptonite?


Originally posted by Krypto500
Absolutely. My posts earlier in the thread echo this; one of the best scenes in the series in my view. "Ever since that day on the bridge, you've always seen yourself as my saviour; the one thing that would pull me off the dark path I had started ... You don't wanna face the fact that you might have failed." Brilliant, just brilliant. Flawlessly written and acted by both MR and TW; loved it.

YES! Such a great scene, it was almost like Lex placing the blame on Clark, a foreshadowing of why they will become bitter rivals!


Originally posted by Krypto500
Yes. It'll be interesting to see how Zod-in-Lex, or Zex, conceals his powers. He might hide them just as Clark does, or he might make a grand show of his strength and physical superiority as part of his plan to conquer.

I don’t think Zod (or Zex) will conceal his powers, particularly that scene near the end when Zex was standing on top the roof – it was a very Superman-esc moment, and I half expected Zex to lift Lana up and fly above the clouds. Love how Lana embraced Zex and his powers, showing her acceptance – would she do the same for Clark?


Originally posted by Krypto500
I like the idea too. My only gripe - as I've ranted in other threads - is that it feels like this arc is being used as a means to villify Lex. That, to me, feels like 'cheating'. Lex should have been able to turn into the villain without the writers needing to put the ultimate Kryptonian villain inside Lex's body to 'help' him along.

I too love the whole idea of Zod in Lex – and it seems will be a major turning point for Lex, though as you say I hope we see Lex become the villain proper of his own accord.


Originally posted by Krypto500
Well, like many I'm not convinced this is the start of a romantic relationship. I saw it more as an expression of the 'love' they have as friends than a prelude to Chlark. Would be delightful to see them together as a couple, though, wouldn't it?

I’m not too sure, Chloe has had feelings for Clark for a long time and I saw this kiss as her way to show her feelings in a “good luck” kiss – it would be nice to see them get together, but would it last and will this open a new can of worms for Chlark?

[Lex Dance]

Hi Krypto! Nice essay breakdown!! :lol:

Originally posted by Krypto500

As a big fan of "Vessel", I'm curious to know what you didn't like!

Please don't get me wrong - I really did enjoy the episode, there's just something I can't quite put my finger on!

I thought the weaker parts of the episode were:
1) the rioting outside of LuthorCorps - it looked a little too like it was filmed in a studio (whereas the footage of other US cities rioting looked genuinely frightening and tapped into events in New Orleans last year).
2) the scenes with Lois and Martha in the plane - it felt like the writers just wanted to put as many of Clark's nearest and dearest in peril as possible, and yet there was no real need. I'm a big Erica Durance/Lois Lane fan but her acting was just plain bad (sorry!)
But like I said before, these didn't detract from the episode at all - and they certainly didn't spoil my enjoyment of it.

Originally posted by Krypto500
Everyone seems to feel this way except me. Am I the only one who thought it was the best season finale since "Exodus"?
It's very interesting to hear you say that - Exodus often gets ignored alongside the other finales but I love it too - especially Jor-El's "You will obey me, Kal-El" line at the end as the camera pans back showing the long road to Metropolis. What an ending! As far as finales go I can't help going for Tempest, purely because I can still remember feeling punched in the stomach as Clark rushed into the tornado and the episode finished with only the sound of the howling wind.

Originally posted by Krypto500
there was more to the episode than that; in a way, how Clark wound up in the PZ and how well it was written were more important to me than the bare storyline.
You're right to point this out. I was just as interested to see HOW Clark ended up in the PZ.

Originally posted by psycosis
I also thought the PZ SFX was very well done and would like to say it was one of the best endings ever seen!
Hi psycosis! Despite being spoiled, it was never-the-less a very good ending. I guess I just wanted that 'punched-in-the-stomach' feeling again! :eek:
I'm a little confused about the state of Zod. They suggested in this episode that he is in fact dead, and that it's his spirit that was trapped in the PZ. Without wanting to nit-pick, why incarcerate someone who is already dead? The producers seem to be suggesting once more that Smallville's Kryptonians have a very powerful after-life. What do people think about the validity of having the Krytonian race effectively live forever, whether it's in their body or somebody else's? As I'm writing this I'm thinking of that scene in Hereafter (is it?) where the character sees Clark's future extending infinitely. I always assumed it was just showing us that Clark will outlive everyone around him (like the vision in Hourglass), but maybe the producers are intending to rewrite the mythology, as they have done in other areas. I'm waffling now (and it's late) so I'll stop! :\

[psycosis]

Originally posted by Lex Dance
the rioting outside of LuthorCorps - it looked a little too like it was filmed in a studio (whereas the footage of other US cities rioting looked genuinely frightening and tapped into events in New Orleans last year).

I don’t know if it was but the other rioting scenes did look a lot like real footage (cut down costs of actually filming them anyway) and would explain why they did look more real and frightening – though I have to say the riots outside LuthorCorps still looked very chaotic and scary.


Originally posted by Lex Dance
It's very interesting to hear you say that - Exodus often gets ignored alongside the other finales but I love it too - especially Jor-El's "You will obey me, Kal-El" line at the end as the camera pans back showing the long road to Metropolis. What an ending! As far as finales go I can't help going for Tempest, purely because I can still remember feeling punched in the stomach as Clark rushed into the tornado and the episode finished with only the sound of the howling wind.

I don’t know if I have a favourite, never really thought about it until now – I like them all! Though Commencement springs to mind as one of the strongest for me.


Originally posted by Lex Dance
I'm a little confused about the state of Zod. They suggested in this episode that he is in fact dead, and that it's his spirit that was trapped in the PZ. Without wanting to nit-pick, why incarcerate someone who is already dead? The producers seem to be suggesting once more that Smallville's Kryptonians have a very powerful after-life. What do people think about the validity of having the Krytonian race effectively live forever, whether it's in their body or somebody else's? As I'm writing this I'm thinking of that scene in Hereafter (is it?) where the character sees Clark's future extending infinitely. I always assumed it was just showing us that Clark will outlive everyone around him (like the vision in Hourglass), but maybe the producers are intending to rewrite the mythology, as they have done in other areas.

Yeah, not too sure about that – I mean we did see a face in the PZ the first time Fine tried to release Zod, and I’m sure there was not talk of needing a vessel (though I know Fine said about Clark being the original vessel in this ep) it does seem like a plot device that was thought up as a way to develop the characters they have now.
Possibly Zod died while within the PZ and since nothing can escape the PZ his sprit was still imprisoned.

Superman is basically immortal in the comics since he never truly dies, so it’s not really rewriting the mythology in that sense – it’s something I can accept since he is sustained by the sun, though while inhabiting a human body Kryptonian’s can die, so Zod using a human as a vessel my not be his brightest idea, since technically he is a human with Kryptonian powers and as such the body will succumb to the pressures applied to it.

[Krypto500]

Psycosis and Lex Dance - hey guys. My thoughts on your thoughts in roughly the order they were written in ... ;)


Originally posted by psycosis
... I also thought the PZ SFX was very well done and would like to say it was one of the best endings ever seen! ...

Haven't heard anyone mention this yet, but I thought it mirrored the diamond-stone that Clark used to create the FoS in "Commencement". The difference being that in that instance the diamond was a symbol of 'good' and heading towards the screen, whereas here it was a symbol of incarceration and moving away from us, into the distance. Neat parallel to the S4 finale.


Originally posted by psycosis
... since Lex is human and the vessal for Zod will he be immune to Kryptonite?

One would think so, but then ... "Asylum" saw Eric taking Clark's powers: and even though he was human, he was affected by Kryptonite and weakened so that Clark could get his powers back. So perhaps it's the powers themselves that cause the vulnerability to K, in all its forms, rather than the physiology? Doesn't make sense, but it seems to be the established convention so far.


Originally posted by psycosis
YES! Such a great scene, it was almost like Lex placing the blame on Clark, a foreshadowing of why they will become bitter rivals!

"why they will become bitter rivals"? I take it you feel they're not up to that point yet, psycosis? I can't see how Lex will patch things up with Clark after this. Clark's never going to go near Lex for anything now except to get him put behind bars.


Originally posted by psycosis
Love how Lana embraced Zex and his powers, showing her acceptance – would she do the same for Clark?

The theory I've argued in one of the Lexana threads is that Lana wanted to do the same for Clark, and she would have if only Clark had given her that chance. Lexana is essentially Lana's way of expressing what she wanted from her relationship with Clark, and her twisted way of showing Clark - and herself - what could have been.


Originally posted by psycosis
I’m not too sure, Chloe has had feelings for Clark for a long time and I saw this kiss as her way to show her feelings in a “good luck” kiss – it would be nice to see them get together, but would it last and will this open a new can of worms for Chlark?

My guess is that there will be a Chlark scene early on in S6 where Clark and Chloe agree that it was just an "in-the-heat-of-the-moment" kiss. Of course, it will be awkward because Chloe knows how she feels, Clark knows how she feels, and we the audience know how she feels. But Clark's not sure how he feels. I half-support the theory that it will take a new man in Chloe's life for Clark to realise just how much he cares about her and how much he returns her affection without even being aware of it.

But I imagine this will all take a backseat to the Clark-in-the-PZ arc because - and I hope this doesn't count as a spoiler! - Clark is supposed to be seriously messed up by the time he gets back to Smallville. That and the Zod arc will probably take up most of the first two or three episodes.


Originally posted by Lex Dance
1) the rioting outside of LuthorCorps - it looked a little too like it was filmed in a studio (whereas the footage of other US cities rioting looked genuinely frightening and tapped into events in New Orleans last year).

Did you think so? You were probably watching it more closely than I was, because I was taken in by it entirely! It seemed like a huge number of extras, and the amount of stuff going on at the same time was incredible, I thought. Seemed to me like one of the larger sequences the show has shot. But it might just be me.


Originally posted by Lex Dance
2) the scenes with Lois and Martha in the plane - it felt like the writers just wanted to put as many of Clark's nearest and dearest in peril as possible, and yet there was no real need. I'm a big Erica Durance/Lois Lane fan but her acting was just plain bad (sorry!)

:lol: No argument from me, I'm not ED's biggest fan, and EDLois is one of 'Smallville's travesties thus far IMHO. On the peril: well, it was contrived, I agree. But I also thought it was good to have all of the characters involved in the episode and taking part in their own stories. One of the intriguing questions raised is how that particular arc will be resolved. Do Martha and Lois crash? Are they taken captive by Fine? Does Lion-El come to their help? (He must realise by now that Clark's loved ones in danger is the quickest way to really alienate and anger Clark.)


Originally posted by Lex Dance
As far as finales go I can't help going for Tempest, purely because I can still remember feeling punched in the stomach as Clark rushed into the tornado and the episode finished with only the sound of the howling wind.

Yes, that was also awesome. The way the sound of the wind carried on even after the screen had faded to black ... that rocked.


Originally posted by Lex Dance
I'm a little confused about the state of Zod. They suggested in this episode that he is in fact dead, and that it's his spirit that was trapped in the PZ. Without wanting to nit-pick, why incarcerate someone who is already dead? The producers seem to be suggesting once more that Smallville's Kryptonians have a very powerful after-life. What do people think about the validity of having the Krytonian race effectively live forever, whether it's in their body or somebody else's?

It's a sad state of affairs, and for me one of the few disappointing elements of "Vessel" - and the season as a whole. It seems like evidence of hasty re-writes. It's great that Lex - and MR - now get to be the villain. But it doesn't seem like that was the original plan: we saw Zod in the PZ diamond approaching the FoS in "Solitude" - he had a body then. What happened?

The other nugget from this is one raised by several fans: if Kryptonian technology somehow has the way to separate the soul or the spirit from the body, why didn't Jor-El mention this before the death of Clark's nearest and dearest in "Reckoning"? Just an idea, and just another reason for Clark to loathe Jor-El even more for not bringing that up ...

[psycosis]

Originally posted by Krypto500
Haven't heard anyone mention this yet, but I thought it mirrored the diamond-stone that Clark used to create the FoS in "Commencement". The difference being that in that instance the diamond was a symbol of 'good' and heading towards the screen, whereas here it was a symbol of incarceration and moving away from us, into the distance. Neat parallel to the S4 finale.

My thoughts exactly!


Originally posted by Krypto500
One would think so, but then ... "Asylum" saw Eric taking Clark's powers: and even though he was human, he was affected by Kryptonite and weakened so that Clark could get his powers back. So perhaps it's the powers themselves that cause the vulnerability to K, in all its forms, rather than the physiology? Doesn't make sense, but it seems to be the established convention so far.

Forgot about that! Forgot how much I hate that idea, Smallville is known to take liberties with established story - this is one fact I wouldn't mind if they forget about, I’d like to see another kryptonite come in to stop Zod.


Originally posted by Krypto500
"why they will become bitter rivals"? I take it you feel they're not up to that point yet, psycosis? I can't see how Lex will patch things up with Clark after this. Clark's never going to go near Lex for anything now except to get him put behind bars.

Well there pretty close - but there not at the classic Lex vs. Superman stage yet, like you say Lex isn't a fully fledged villain and hoped he gets there without the help of Zod - I see these as interconnected, once Lex becomes the villain proper we will see him as a full on rival.


Originally posted by Krypto500
The theory I've argued in one of the Lexana threads is that Lana wanted to do the same for Clark, and she would have if only Clark had given her that chance. Lexana is essentially Lana's way of expressing what she wanted from her relationship with Clark, and her twisted way of showing Clark - and herself - what could have been.

It's a very neat touch that I’m enjoying seeing Lex fill the role of Clark and now Superman for Lana, I can't wait to see her face when she realises there relationship has gone askew.


Originally posted by Krypto500
My guess is that there will be a Chlark scene early on in S6 where Clark and Chloe agree that it was just an "in-the-heat-of-the-moment" kiss. Of course, it will be awkward because Chloe knows how she feels, Clark knows how she feels, and we the audience know how she feels. But Clark's not sure how he feels.
I half-support the theory that it will take a new man in Chloe's life for Clark to realise just how much he cares about her and how much he returns her affection without even being aware of it.

But I imagine this will all take a backseat to the Clark-in-the-PZ arc because - and I hope this doesn't count as a spoiler! - Clark is supposed to be seriously messed up by the time he gets back to Smallville. That and the Zod arc will probably take up most of the first two or three episodes.

I hope your right; as much as I'd love seeing Chloe get her man I don’t think Clark is quite ready yet – it would be nice to see Chloe find someone else for a while for Clark to realise how he feels for her.

You really think the Zod arc will be present for the first two or three eps? That would be extremely interesting if they went that way with it, though I’d be very intrigued to see how the others would manage without Clark for a while – make a nice change from everything to be wrapped up in the first ep!
Any theories as how Clark is going to stop Zex and Fine? I’m guessing Lion-el will be a big help – but would they bring back any of the heroes Smallvillle's introducing???

[RMF]

Originally posted by psycosis
Love how Lana embraced Zex and his powers, showing her acceptance – would she do the same for Clark?
"Reckoning" suggests she would have, but "Vessel" left me wondering whether Lex and Lana would have ever acted as they did if not for their anger at Clark. They haven't lived his lifelong dilemma, they're merely reacting short-term to it. Would Lex be grandstanding like this if he weren't trying to show Clark up? And when Lex first revealed his powers to Lana, she was shaking like a leaf and looked about to vomit ("they've turned you into one of them!"). Would Lana be so determined to stick with Lex if she weren't trying to show herself she is a better girlfriend than Clark was a boyfriend?

[Lex Dance]

Originally posted by RMF
when Lex first revealed his powers to Lana, she was shaking like a leaf and looked about to vomit ("they've turned you into one of them!").
Welcome to the UK thread RMF!
I'm glad that Lana initially reacted like this, because it mirrored the way that Clark always thought she would react to him. As we saw in Reckoning, actually this is not the way that she would deal with Clark's secret (at THAT point in time). That this feeling of disgust turned to acceptance is a sure sign of how far she is tangled up in Lex's world of intrigue, charm and deception. Her anger at Clark is certainly one of the reasons (but by no means the only one) for immersing herself so rapidly in this world. I like Reckoning, despite all the criticism levelled at the 2 halves/reset button storyline, but now I think it takes on greater significance having seen Vessel - especially if you compare Lana's character in the FoS with her character atop the Daily Planet, throwing her lot in with Lex/Zod as Metropolis burns.

Originally posted by psycosis
Superman is basically immortal in the comics since he never truly dies, so it’s not really rewriting the mythology in that sense – it’s something I can accept since he is sustained by the sun
Nice avi, psycosis! I thought your knowledge of the comics might help here :D. Mine is a little limited, however I have read Jeph Loeb's Public Enemies in which an ageing Superman returns from the future to warn himself of mistakes he is about to make. When you say that he "never truly dies" is that because there are storylines similar to those in Smallville (I'm thinking of Jor-El, but Zod's current existence is equally out-of-body :lol: )? Or is it just that no-one has found a succesful way of killing/outliving him? Whatever the reason for Zod's bodyless state, it certainly sounds like the writers have had to rethink elements of his background since the failed events of Solitude.
By the way, did you read the April Fool's news about Christopher Eccleston playing Zod? What a shame it was just a joke - he would be fantastic in the role. We Brits always play the best villains (I wouldn't be surprised if John Glover has a Scottish Grandmother! :rotfl: ). That said - whoever's face was looming out of the PZ in Solitude looked suitably creepy!

Originally posted by Krypto500
Haven't heard anyone mention this yet, but I thought it mirrored the diamond-stone that Clark used to create the FoS in "Commencement". The difference being that in that instance the diamond was a symbol of 'good' and heading towards the screen, whereas here it was a symbol of incarceration and moving away from us, into the distance. Neat parallel to the S4 finale.
Great spot Krypto! I thought the diamond shape of the PZ was reminiscent of the united crystal but hadn't thought about the direction of movement. Good one!

Originally posted by Krypto500
if Kryptonian technology somehow has the way to separate the soul or the spirit from the body, why didn't Jor-El mention this before the death of Clark's nearest and dearest in "Reckoning"?
Now this is why the state of Zod troubles me! If the producers are suggesting that the spirit of Kryptonians can live on once the body is dead, that would go directly against Jor-El's admission in Reckoning that "We are not gods." Immortality is a very godly quality :lol:! Zod's current existence may have come about from perceived rewriting midway through the season, but alternatively Jor-El's existence has never been properly explained. I wonder if it ever will? The producers may decide to keep it deliberately ambiguous in order to allow for the kind of storyline we have seen with Lion-El, Reckoning and of course Vessel. :confused:

[Krypto500]

Hello RMF!

Awesome post. Several of the points you mention made me think.


Originally posted by RMF
"Reckoning" suggests she would have, but "Vessel" left me wondering whether Lex and Lana would have ever acted as they did if not for their anger at Clark.

Probably not, no. I don't buy for a second that Lex would have been interested in Lana if it wasn't part of his effort to hurt Clark. I doubt Lana would have rushed into a new relationship if she weren't trying to resolve her own feelings about her break-up with Clark. So yes, anger probably has a lot to do with their actions.

That said, I think that perhaps this anger is clouded with other emotions: before Lana suggests the "moratorium on the whole Clark topic" at the end of "Oracle", Lex tells Lana that he still cares about Clark, just as Lana does. Whether he means it or not is something that could be debated, but I for one think in his own way Lex does.


Originally posted by RMF
They haven't lived his lifelong dilemma, they're merely reacting short-term to it. Would Lex be grandstanding like this if he weren't trying to show Clark up?

Agree with you completely there. The scene where Lex puts a bullet in his hand has THREE references aimed at putting Clark to shame: "You need to know the truth about me", "Lana, I'd never lie to you", and "How could I keep something like this from the person I care about the most?" Lex is telling Lana exactly what she wants to hear, and he knows it. So yes, grandstanding with the intent to undermine Clark.


Originally posted by RMF
Would Lana be so determined to stick with Lex if she weren't trying to show herself she is a better girlfriend than Clark was a boyfriend?

I see your point, but I think it might be more than that. She's trying to prove to herself that she was worthy of Clark's secret. Lana wants to know whether she can tow this line with Lex, because if she can then she'll feel vindicated. She'll know that her relationship with Clark broke down because of Clark's unwillingness to be truthful rather than Lana's inability to absorb that truth.

[RMF]

Originally posted by Krypto500
Probably not, no. I don't buy for a second that Lex would have been interested in Lana if it wasn't part of his effort to hurt Clark. I doubt Lana would have rushed into a new relationship if she weren't trying to resolve her own feelings about her break-up with Clark. So yes, anger probably has a lot to do with their actions.
It's interesting that they've put Lana at the heart of a sexual triangle, but Clark at the heart of an emotional triangle. Both Lana and Lex have tried to get close to him and failed, and they're not taking it well. If Clark and Chloe went on to have a relationship, would Lana find she's suddenly become less valuable to Lex?


That said, I think that perhaps this anger is clouded with other emotions: before Lana suggests the "moratorium on the whole Clark topic" at the end of "Oracle", Lex tells Lana that he still cares about Clark, just as Lana does. Whether he means it or not is something that could be debated, but I for one think in his own way Lex does.
It could be argued he was just trying to look like a nice guy by saying that, but I also think he does still care about him. What gives him away is that what he says to Clark in their confrontation is impossible to reconcile with indifference. He claims the friendship was bogus, and he just wanted to take away everything Clark had, but why then would he take so personally the lying and Clark's apparent failure to live up to the virtuous picture Lex had of him? He should be laughing in Clark's face or mocking him, but he's angry.


I see your point, but I think it might be more than that. She's trying to prove to herself that she was worthy of Clark's secret. Lana wants to know whether she can tow this line with Lex, because if she can then she'll feel vindicated. She'll know that her relationship with Clark broke down because of Clark's unwillingness to be truthful rather than Lana's inability to absorb that truth.
I think we are saying basically the same thing in a slightly different way -- Lana isn't exactly reacting naturally, she wants to prove something to herself regarding the failure with Clark.

[psycosis]

Originally posted by Lex Dance
Nice avi, psycosis! I thought your knowledge of the comics might help here :D. Mine is a little limited, however I have read Jeph Loeb's Public Enemies in which an ageing Superman returns from the future to warn himself of mistakes he is about to make. When you say that he "never truly dies" is that because there are storylines similar to those in Smallville (I'm thinking of Jor-El, but Zod's current existence is equally out-of-body :lol: )? Or is it just that no-one has found a succesful way of killing/outliving him? Whatever the reason for Zod's bodyless state, it certainly sounds like the writers have had to rethink elements of his background since the failed events of Solitude.

By the way, did you read the April Fool's news about Christopher Eccleston playing Zod? What a shame it was just a joke - he would be fantastic in the role. We Brits always play the best villains (I wouldn't be surprised if John Glover has a Scottish Grandmother! :rotfl: ). That said - whoever's face was looming out of the PZ in Solitude looked suitably creepy!

Thanks, though I did steal it from another user! :\
Throughout the ages of Superman he has undergone many changes while ultimately remaining the same - though the main two changes worthy of note are the infamous "death" of Superman when he was killed by a super villain named Doomsday - for a time Superman was "missing" in the comics and at this time we were introduced to a lot of Super themed characters, two of which you may have head of, Superboy and Steel - Superman’s body was sent towards the sun which eventually supercharged him and brought him back to life.

There was also the time when he underwent a molecular change and became a being of energy, with electrical type powers in place of his usual ones, eventually he splits into two polar opposites of himself, who eventually come together again in order to save the world - Superman then reappears back into his original form.
But as you say no one has found a 100% effective way of destroying/outliving Superman.

No I never heard of that April Fool's before - it would definitely be interesting to see him play Zod. The face looking out from the PZ is said to be an image of Terrance Stamp as Zod from Superman II, though I’ll have to wait for season 5 on DVD so I can look at that image proper, before I could say for sure.

[Krypto500]

Originally posted by RMF
... If Clark and Chloe went on to have a relationship, would Lana find she's suddenly become less valuable to Lex?

I see where you're coming from, RMF; ditching Lana once she's no longer part of Lex's plan would be the Luthor-like thing to do. I can see Lionel capable of such ruthlessness, but I'm not sure about Lex. I know I said that Lex wouldn't have given Lexana a second thought if it weren't part of his plan to hurt Clark; but just as he said he cares about Clark, I think he really does care about Lana. In that twisted, Luthor-like way ...


Originally posted by RMF
...What gives [Lex] away is that what he says to Clark in their confrontation is impossible to reconcile with indifference. He claims the friendship was bogus, and he just wanted to take away everything Clark had, but why then would he take so personally the lying and Clark's apparent failure to live up to the virtuous picture Lex had of him? He should be laughing in Clark's face or mocking him, but he's angry.

Ah, but do you think Lex was ever indifferent when it came to Clark? As Ryan said as far back as "Stray", Lex "looks up" to Clark. When Lex discovers the truth about Clark in "Vessel", it's like Lex's paragon has been exposed as a fraud.

On the "taking away everything Clark had" issue ... I'm not sure about this. I see your point, that Lex is effectively declaring his friendship with Clark as 'bogus'. But then, Lex has always been the one who tried so hard to make amends and repair the damage he did to their friendship. He's the one who wanted to make it work more than anything (despite investigating Clark and deceiving him all the time).

So it could be that Lex's anger doesn't just stem from being lied to per se. It could also be that

1) Clark doesn't have that "strong innner core" that Lex thought he had. And it infuriates Lex that the friend he always looked up to, who acted so self-righteously all those years, was actually lying through his teeth a lot of the time. It denigrates one of the few things that Lex thought was good in this world.

2) Clark has practically taken Lionel from Lex. I know a lot of fans feel that Lex wouldn't care about that, but I think he does. As recently as "Mercy", Lionel's words (Clark is "a son any father would be proud of", etc.) were producing an expression of genuine sadness in Lex. And so part of Lex's efforts to take Lana away from Clark are revenge for a perceived injustice rather than unmotivated malice.


Originally posted by RMF
I think we are saying basically the same thing in a slightly different way -- Lana isn't exactly reacting naturally, she wants to prove something to herself regarding the failure with Clark.

Yeah, when you say it like that I guess we are thinking along the same lines. ;)

Do you think Lana will prove herself? As a Lana fan (and a Chloe fan), I'd really like to believe she will. But she's placed herself in an incredibly difficult predicament, and it'll be difficult for her to find her way out of it and redeem herself.

[RMF]

Originally posted by Krypto500
I see where you're coming from, RMF; ditching Lana once she's no longer part of Lex's plan would be the Luthor-like thing to do. I can see Lionel capable of such ruthlessness, but I'm not sure about Lex. I know I said that Lex wouldn't have given Lexana a second thought if it weren't part of his plan to hurt Clark; but just as he said he cares about Clark, I think he really does care about Lana. In that twisted, Luthor-like way ...
Oh, Lionel would drop her like hot garbage. :lol: As for Lex, though, he may not ditch her outright, but I wonder if Lana would be faced yet again with a man who pulls away without explanation. Wouldn't that be a kick in the head.


Ah, but do you think Lex was ever indifferent when it came to Clark?
Well, no. It was a rhetorical question, the point being that Lex couldn't be that upset if he didn't care.


2) Clark has practically taken Lionel from Lex. I know a lot of fans feel that Lex wouldn't care about that, but I think he does.
I'm surprised that any fans would think that that wouldn't bother Lex. I would think that this will be one the things that really drives him nuts, and the fact that Clark doesn't even want Lionel and would happily give him back only makes it worse.


Do you think Lana will prove herself? As a Lana fan (and a Chloe fan), I'd really like to believe she will. But she's placed herself in an incredibly difficult predicament, and it'll be difficult for her to find her way out of it and redeem herself.
Now, just because she's an embittered shrew who blew off an apocalypse to spend time with her boyfriend doesn't mean she won't pull it out in the end. ;)

[Krypto500]

Hey RMF ...


Originally posted by RMF
... I wonder if Lana would be faced yet again with a man who pulls away without explanation. Wouldn't that be a kick in the head.

One more thing to add to the inferiority complex. Poor Lana. :(

Is a normal, happy life with a normal, happy boyfriend too much to ask?! In Lana's case, apparently it is.


Originally posted by RMF
Well, no. It was a rhetorical question, the point being that Lex couldn't be that upset if he didn't care.

Ah, gotcha. That one went over my head. ;)

But yes, Lex does still care about Clark. Even when the two of them are throwing one another around the barn, I think there's a part of both of them which looks back on their early friendship with a sense of sadness.


Originally posted by RMF
I'm surprised that any fans would think that that wouldn't bother Lex. I would think that this will be one the things that really drives him nuts, and the fact that Clark doesn't even want Lionel and would happily give him back only makes it worse.

Well, between Lex putting Lionel in prison, Lionel poisoning Lex's brandy, Lex having a vision of Lex disowning and turning his son away when he pleads for help ("Lexmas") and Lionel trying to sabotage Lex's pursuit of the senate seat - heck, I can't keep track of it anymore ... :lol:

I voice fans who say Lex wouldn't care based on the response I've gotten in threads which discussed what might further the Clark/Lex hostility. My theory was always Lionel dying; that Lex would blame Clark for Lionel's death. Chances are Lionel would die protecting Clark, and given Lionel's connection to Clark through Jor-El and through Lionel's sudden quest for redemption by helping Clark, Lex would see Clark as indirectly responsible.

The general feeling was that Lex wouldn't be too bothered given the strained relationship between father and son throughout the series. Lex has been raised to be ruthless, but I feel a part of him would grieve if (or when) Lionel dies.

Not sure, what do you think?

Psycosis, Lex Dance - please chime in here, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this too. Do you think Lionel's days are numbered? Should the character have already been killed off? Is he likely to survive the end of the series?


Originally posted by RMF
Now, just because she's an embittered shrew who blew off an apocalypse to spend time with her boyfriend doesn't mean she won't pull it out in the end. ;)

:rotfl:

I tend to go with "reptilian She-Beast" myself, but "embittered shrew" works too. :lol:

She didn't just blow off the apocalypse - she frickin' went THROUGH it just to GET to her new boyfriend! While a nationwide power-down is causing chaos, while fires are burning and buildings are being broken into and property smashed and people being seriously injured ... what does Lana do? She uses her Lana Fu to make sure NOTHING gets between her and her date with the new beau!

Saddening to see this happen to one of my favourite characters, it really is ...

[psycosis]

Originally posted by Krypto500
But yes, Lex does still care about Clark. Even when the two of them are throwing one another around the barn, I think there's a part of both of them which looks back on their early friendship with a sense of sadness.

Do you think Lionel's days are numbered? Should the character have already been killed off? Is he likely to survive the end of the series?

The whole Lex and Clark dynamic that's been created for Smallville brings a totally different perspective of there rivalry, twisting it into something a lot more complex than any of the comics have previously done.
It's quite tragic and saddening to see them both wish they could be friends but know that it's too late for any real collaboration.

Lionel has always been one of my favourites in the "love him because I hate him" way, and it would be nice to see if he would become part of the Kent family - though I don't really think that will EVER happen, and I don't see him lasting to the end of the six season never mind the series, I expect the Lion-el arc to ultimately be responsible for Lionel’s end, and in this way Lex blame on Clark could be made worse, though as you say I think the public face of Lex will be a cold hearted and the personal face being much more emotional though he will most likely vent them on Clark.

[Pesk]

I watched this ep on E4, and it was described as 'fine unleashes his virus on the world', but I didn't remember anything like that happening in this ep. Whatever happened to the virus storyline, anyway?

[Lex Dance]

Originally posted by psycosis

But as you say no one has found a 100% effective way of destroying/outliving Superman.

The face looking out from the PZ is said to be an image of Terrance Stamp as Zod from Superman II, though I’ll have to wait for season 5 on DVD so I can look at that image proper, before I could say for sure.
Cheers psycosis! I hadn't heard about either of those stories. They both suggest that Superman/Kryptonians are effectively eternal. This has all sorts of implications for Kal-El's (perceived) background as the last son of a dying race - most of which I'm struggling to type in any coherent sense, so I give up! :confused:

By the way, I'd love it if they have used Terrance Stamp's image in Solitude. However from what I remember, Zod's face appeared to have long hair. I could be totally wrong of course, what with only seeing it twice!

Originally posted by Krypto500

The general feeling was that Lex wouldn't be too bothered given the strained relationship between father and son throughout the series. Lex has been raised to be ruthless, but I feel a part of him would grieve if (or when) Lionel dies.

Not sure, what do you think?

Psycosis, Lex Dance - please chime in here, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this too. Do you think Lionel's days are numbered? Should the character have already been killed off? Is he likely to survive the end of the series?
Hi Krypto! Been a bit slow to post over the last few days!
Make no mistake - Lex is eaten up by Lionel's involvement with Clark. Definitely definitely definitely! The scene in Mercy that you mention highlighted it beautifully. I mentioned it in the episode's thread but that scene was immaculately played by Michael Rosenbaum and John Glover. That line about Clark being the kind of son that any father would be proud of will have cut Lex to the bone. As much as Lex and Lionel hurt one another, there will always be a semblance of a father/son relationship. Lex will always crave the love of a father and Lionel needs a son who he can deem worthy of him. The irony is that as Lex goes to further and further extremes to prove his worth - not to Lionel but to himself - his own father condemns him for going over the edge. I loved the scene in Vessel where Lionel mocks Lex for making a pact with the Devil. Even with powers akin to Clark's, Lex can only be monstrous in Lionel's eyes.
Ever since Memoria I think Lex gave up trying to please his father, but the revelation in that episode can only have further warped what was already an extremely dysfunctional relationship. But it continues to be a relationship nonetheless, which is why I think Lex could never 'not care' about his father's apparent attachment to Clark. What makes this relationship even harder for Lex to bear is the fact that Clark is already blessed with the love of a good father. We know from previous episodes just how much Lex wants the respect of Jonathon Kent (it's one of the reasons I love Lexmas by the way).
As to whether Lex would grieve his father's death? I don't think he would know how to. Not because he's heartless - I'm pretty sure he grieved the death of Jonathon - but because his feelings are so thoroughly confused towards Lionel that his death would leave their own relationship in limbo or certainly unresolved. In all honesty, I've always thought that Lex will kill Lionel and that this will be one of the defining moments in Lex's descent into evil. If that's the case I don't think there will be ANY grieving! :lol:

[RMF]

Originally posted by Krypto500
Well, between Lex putting Lionel in prison, Lionel poisoning Lex's brandy, Lex having a vision of Lex disowning and turning his son away when he pleads for help ("Lexmas") and Lionel trying to sabotage Lex's pursuit of the senate seat - heck, I can't keep track of it anymore ... :lol:
Yes, but at least those are activities they can share. :D


My theory was always Lionel dying; that Lex would blame Clark for Lionel's death. Chances are Lionel would die protecting Clark, and given Lionel's connection to Clark through Jor-El and through Lionel's sudden quest for redemption by helping Clark, Lex would see Clark as indirectly responsible.

The general feeling was that Lex wouldn't be too bothered given the strained relationship between father and son throughout the series. Lex has been raised to be ruthless, but I feel a part of him would grieve if (or when) Lionel dies.
I look at it this way: If Lionel merely died, Lex might say "good riddance" and dance a little jig on his grave. But Clark gaining the blackhearted Lionel's affections when Lex couldn't -- that's intolerable. That's losing your father in a way that says "you're unworthy".

It's really staggering what Lionel's done in psychologically tormenting Lex all these years, then going off and trying to co-opt someone else's son because he's a delightful, decently raised young man with special talents. I think that Lionel will in fact die, and at Lex's hands. At this point, I'd almost hand him the gun.


Originally posted by Lex Dance
What makes this relationship even harder for Lex to bear is the fact that Clark is already blessed with the love of a good father.
He's got a whole d*mn collection. He could start auctioning them off on eBay. :lol:

[love_sv]

Does anyone see similarities between S5 finale and S4 finale? The way each episode began, with strange goings-on outside and Shelby barking like mad.

I also noticed a similar thing with the Chlark kiss. Not to bang on about it :) but in S4 finale Lana kissed Clark thinking she may never see him again and that led on to Lana and Clark having a relationship in Season 5. This makes me hopeful that we will see Clark and Chloe together in Season 6.

Just some more things I was wondering about: in the plane why didn't Lois get the oxygen masks straight away? That's just a little thing that made me chuckle. I guess it's to make the show more dramatic!

[Krypto500]

Originally posted by psycosis
... I expect the Lion-el arc to ultimately be responsible for Lionel’s end, and in this way Lex blame on Clark could be made worse ...

I wonder how much Lex will know about Lionel's connection to Clark, though? At this point, not even Zex is aware of Lionel's possession by Jor-El (unless Fine has told him). So it will be interesting to see how much Lex gathers about Lionel's role in Clark's life if Lionel dies.


Originally posted by Pesk
I watched this ep on E4, and it was described as 'fine unleashes his virus on the world', but I didn't remember anything like that happening in this ep. Whatever happened to the virus storyline, anyway?

Yeah, I thought this was a little misleading as well. I think there are TWO viruses - the physical super-virus created by Fine in Honduras, and the electrical virus launched by Fine in "Vessel" - which reviews didn't really distinguish. We know that the biological super-virus was designed with the intent to develop a vaccine and 'prepare' Lex for possession by Zod. So in a sense Fine did unleash it on its target - it's just that the target was one person, Lex. As for the computer virus - well, we've seen that Fine unleashed that, with devastating consequences.


Originally posted by Lex Dance
As to whether Lex would grieve his father's death? I don't think he would know how to. ... his feelings are so thoroughly confused towards Lionel that his death would leave their own relationship in limbo or certainly unresolved.

It would definitely be confusing for him; would Lex breathe a sigh of relief knowing that there's one less assassin after him, or regret that he and Lionel never had the familial bond that Lex always wanted with Lionel, and which Lionel now seems to be trying to forge with Clark?


Originally posted by Lex Dance
In all honesty, I've always thought that Lex will kill Lionel and that this will be one of the defining moments in Lex's descent into evil. If that's the case I don't think there will be ANY grieving!

Or ... what if Zod-in-Lex is the one to kill Lion-El? The possessed son kills the possessed father? It sounds lame, but it might work as part of the story. Which would be even more confusing to Lex than killing Lionel himself or knowing Lionel died protecting Clark. If Zex kills Lion-El, who would Lex put the blame on?


Originally posted by RMF
It's really staggering what Lionel's done in psychologically tormenting Lex all these years, then going off and trying to co-opt someone else's son because he's a delightful, decently raised young man with special talents. ...

I think it's unfair on Lex that Lionel has changed his mind about what he wants a son to be. For much of the show, Lionel wanted Lex to be the ultimate Luthor: ambitious, exacting, devious, manipulative, uncaring - those were the traits Lionel wanted to impart on Lex "to make him strong". And for the most part, Lionel succeeded. Now, suddenly, he realises that "Lex is not Clark" (which he alludes to in "Mercy" AND "Vessel"), and that he would rather have the good-natured, well-intentioned farmboy for a son than the chip off the old block.

It must make Lex feel very worthless. :(


Originally posted by love_sv
Just some more things I was wondering about: in the plane why didn't Lois get the oxygen masks straight away? That's just a little thing that made me chuckle. I guess it's to make the show more dramatic!

You're right, it's another glaring plot hole to cap off a season filled with them. :lol:

My guess is Lois figured she could communicate with the pilot (not realising it was Fine) and correct the problem before the air pressure became an issue.

[psycosis]

Any theories or ideas for what we might expect for season six?

One of the biggest requests by the fans seems to be for Clark to gain a new power; his Super Breath comes out on top. It's time to see Clark gain the rest of his powers with the exception of flight - and I’d like to see him learn to use his powers to there full potential, i.e. together in combinations.

Though at the same time I hope Clark is more careful with his powers and thinking a bit more before jumping into a situation with all guns blazing - and maybe even thinking about some kind of disguise (glasses?) or attempt to conceal his identity.

What does everyone else think?
Lets keep the debates going here! :D

[love_sv]

As everyone probably knows by now, my biggest wish for Season 6 is Clark and Chloe together!

I agree that seeing new powers from Clark would be great.

[Lex Dance]

Originally posted by RMF

He's got a whole d*mn collection. He could start auctioning them off on eBay. :lol:
I think S5 came with a "buy two, get the third one free" offer! ;)

Originally posted by Krypto500

Or ... what if Zod-in-Lex is the one to kill Lion-El? The possessed son kills the possessed father? It sounds lame, but it might work as part of the story. Which would be even more confusing to Lex than killing Lionel himself or knowing Lionel died protecting Clark. If Zex kills Lion-El, who would Lex put the blame on?
Confusing for Lex? It's confusing enough for me!!! :rotfl:
In all honesty I don't think that would happen, mainly because any scenario that involved the death of Lionel at the hands of Lex is most likely to focus on how it affects Lex as a human being and a supervillain-in-waiting. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if Zod in Lex v. Jor-El in Lionel forms some part of the S6 premiere or early episode arc. Could we get our first proper Smallville ruck? The US fans are baying for blood! :lol:

Originally posted by psycosis

Any theories or ideas for what we might expect for season six?
New powers would be good! The last one - superhearing was it? - was all the way back in the middle in S3! I suppose superbreath is the only one left, not counting flying. Talking of flying.......what is the reason for Gough and Miller not wanting Clark to fly in Smallville? Is it because traditionally in the comics Clark being able to fly is around the same time he takes on the role of Superman? Or is it because it's just an excuse not to have to blow the budget everytime Clark needs to get somewhere quicker than running?! ;)
Oh and another thing......at the beginning of Reckoning did Clark not fly up to the top of the FoS to propose to Lana? Nothing was really made of this afterwards, but surely it can't be explained away as a superjump, as in Hidden?
Anyway back to your question psycosis! I'd like to see Clark rediscover his ever-dimishing journalistic skills - did anyone get the feeling that even at the Torch he was only mildy interested in writing? Likewise I'd like to see Lois show some signs that she will be a journalist (rather than just looking wistfully at the golden globe). By the way psycosis, in Vessel I saw the statue of the figure holding the globe on his back; this one was on the stairs of the Planet office. I didn't see his chest, but I think it's more likely an allusion to Atlas, the god who held the world on his shoulders.
I want to see Chloe start a relationship with someone else to show Clark what he's missing - at the moment I'm not convinced that he sees her as anything more than his best friend.
But most of all I DON'T want to see Lex forget all of the events of Vessel. I'd like to see Lex's new-found knowledge form the basis for the next chapter in his and Clark's increasingly sour relationship.

[Krypto500]

Originally posted by psycosis
Any theories or ideas for what we might expect for season six?

Still hoping that we'll see a full season of Lex having turned completely to the dark side and Clark dedicating his life to putting Lex - and others like him - behind bars. If that's the plan with Season 7, I'd like to see the groundwork for that laid down in Season 6.


Originally posted by psycosis
...I hope Clark is more careful with his powers ... and maybe even thinking about some kind of disguise (glasses?) or attempt to conceal his identity.

I agree. One of the complications to this, though, is the Lois factor: she already knows 1) what Clark looks like without glasses, and 2) that Clark doesn't need glasses. (Unless he feigns sudden eye trouble to explain this ...) Meaning that the Lois in this incarnation would more than likely recognise Clark as Superman when they meet.

But like you say, it would be great to see that reference thrown in and for the show to approach its mythology a little more.


Originally posted by love_sv
As everyone probably knows by now, my biggest wish for Season 6 is Clark and Chloe together!

Go Chlark! :lol:


Originally posted by Lex Dance
... any scenario that involved the death of Lionel at the hands of Lex is most likely to focus on how it affects Lex as a human being and a supervillain-in-waiting ...

This is true; having Lionel die while he and Lex are possessed would take away a lot of the impact. It's more tragic if Lex is in his right mind when he kills his father.

Somehow I feel that Lionel's death will be linked to his role as Lion-El. It's sort of the great irony that the Daddy Villain who was responsible for moulding and corrupting Lex would now meet his end trying to un-do that damage and be a symbol for good.


Originally posted by Lex Dance
Talking of flying.......what is the reason for Gough and Miller not wanting Clark to fly in Smallville? Is it because traditionally in the comics Clark being able to fly is around the same time he takes on the role of Superman? Or is it because it's just an excuse not to have to blow the budget everytime Clark needs to get somewhere quicker than running?!

Sadly, from what I gather, it's the second of those two. :(

The show could probably cobble together "Lois & Clark"-style flight, but it wouldn't do this show justice. To do the flight sequences "Crusade"-style would be impossible on a week-to-week basis. Steven S. DeKnight has mentioned how effects like that and the silo missile sequence in "Hidden" eat away at the show's FX budget, meaning episodes preceding or following one like those usually suffer as a result and turn into the FX-less filler we're often so unhappy about.

Here's hoping that there will be a bit of flight here and there in S6!


Originally posted by Lex Dance
... at the beginning of Reckoning did Clark not fly up to the top of the FoS to propose to Lana? Nothing was really made of this afterwards, but surely it can't be explained away as a superjump, as in Hidden?

RUN FOR YOUR LIVES - IT'S ANOTHER GAPING PLOT HOLE! :roftl:

Everyone has a different take on this: was it flight, was it just an incredibly high jump, has Clark learned to float without it being established on-screen?

My theory is that Clark has learned how to 'levitate' his jumps. Meaning he can propel himself to the point where he can go higher and further than your average high-jumper, but not so high or far that one could describe it as flying. It's probably an early hint to flight, but since it's not flying per se I don't think it counts as something which needed to be explained through dialogue.


Originally posted by Lex Dance
... I'd like to see Clark rediscover his ever-dimishing journalistic skills - did anyone get the feeling that even at the Torch he was only mildy interested in writing? Likewise I'd like to see Lois show some signs that she will be a journalist (rather than just looking wistfully at the golden globe).

Yes, this is one of the disappointing aspects of the show so far IMHO. This is stuff which needed to be built up to throughout the seasons, and it feels like it's been sort of neglected.

A couple of threads contain posts by fans who argue that at this point it would be impossible for Lois OR Clark to become a journalist; "Thirst" showed how much Chloe struggled to get an obituary role at the DP, and she had years of amateur journalism experience on her CV. Clark has virtually nothing of the kind, and Lois is a college drop-out. Is it really believable that these two could somehow get reporter roles at the top newspaper in Metropolis? ... Only with Lionel's help. :lol:


Originally posted by Lex Dance
I want to see Chloe start a relationship with someone else to show Clark what he's missing - at the moment I'm not convinced that he sees her as anything more than his best friend.

Agreed. I think Chloe will play a key part in S6, and likely her fate will be decided this year. Whether it means being written out, killed off or taking Lois' name as a pseudonym is what we'll have to wait to see. That, for me, will be one of the big twists this show comes up with.


Originally posted by Lex Dance
But most of all I DON'T want to see Lex forget all of the events of Vessel.

I'm really hoping this too. One option that's been put forward is that Lex will remember everything but PRETEND that he doesn't, thereby avoiding all suspicion or unwanted attention while he concocts some nefarious scheme ("MWA HA HA!!").

[psycosis]

Originally posted by Lex Dance
what is the reason for Gough and Miller not wanting Clark to fly in Smallville? Is it because traditionally in the comics Clark being able to fly is around the same time he takes on the role of Superman? Or is it because it's just an excuse not to have to blow the budget everytime Clark needs to get somewhere quicker than running?!

Well of course it’s the second of those two, though at the same time every other incarnation of Superman has Clark learn to fly when he’s a fully grown adult (around 18 – 20) and typically leave the Kent farm to follow his destiny.


Originally posted by Lex Dance
Oh and another thing......at the beginning of Reckoning did Clark not fly up to the top of the FoS to propose to Lana? Nothing was really made of this afterwards, but surely it can't be explained away as a superjump, as in Hidden?

I’ve always seen that as more of a super leap, or bound rather than jump (basically the same I know but leap/bound suggest more power) and when you consider that in the comics this power is described as; “being able to leap a single building” – the “jump” Clark performs at the FOS does seem more credible.


Originally posted by Lex Dance
I saw the statue of the figure holding the globe on his back; this one was on the stairs of the Planet office. I didn't see his chest, but I think it's more likely an allusion to Atlas, the god who held the world on his shoulders.

Yeah, that’s the same thing I was describing – somehow I seemed to think it was the Daily Planet globe it was holding??? – but any case Atlas is still a good ;) at us, especially since one of Superman’s most memorable moments in the comics comes when he stops the globe from crashing down on the citizens below, a moment I’ve heard is incorporated into Superman Returns!


Originally posted by Krypto500
One of the complications to this, though, is the Lois factor: she already knows 1) what Clark looks like without glasses, and 2) that Clark doesn't need glasses. (Unless he feigns sudden eye trouble to explain this ...) Meaning that the Lois in this incarnation would more than likely recognise Clark as Superman when they meet.

It’s only really a complication when you assume that Lois will “forget” or not know who Superman is – since Smallville has gone its own way (the “Lois factor” as you call it has been present the moment Lex and Clark met, since they shouldn’t know one another either) I’m guessing Lois will know Clark’s secret the moment he dons the suit – though Clark still needs to use a disguise from everyone else.


Originally posted by Krypto500
Somehow I feel that Lionel's death will be linked to his role as Lion-El. It's sort of the great irony that the Daddy Villain who was responsible for moulding and corrupting Lex would now meet his end trying to un-do that damage and be a symbol for good.
Totally agree, when you consider that Lionel has been Jor-els oracle for sometime now the strain on his body has to give out eventually, though not before Lion-el saves the day of course.


Originally posted by Krypto500
I'm really hoping this too. One option that's been put forward is that Lex will remember everything but PRETEND that he doesn't, thereby avoiding all suspicion or unwanted attention while he concocts some nefarious scheme ("MWA HA HA!!").

I really hope so – I’ve been wishing for Lex to use Clarks secret ageist him for a while now, and would be a cool way to show Lex as the villain that he’s on the verge of becoming.

[Krypto500]

Originally posted by psycosis
It’s only really a complication when you assume that Lois will “forget” or not know who Superman is – since Smallville has gone its own way (the “Lois factor” as you call it has been present the moment Lex and Clark met, since they shouldn’t know one another either) I’m guessing Lois will know Clark’s secret the moment he dons the suit – though Clark still needs to use a disguise from everyone else.

Do you think we'll even see the suit on this show, or will it only be hinted at? My guess was always that the show wouldn't want to get into that territory because
1) they've said repeatedly that this is a Clark Kent show, NOT a Superman show,
2) they'd be inviting criticism - look how much stick the "Superman Returns" costume has gotten, and that's with a feature film budget and timescale, and
3) Tom Welling is probably eager to avoid being typecast as a TV version of The Man of Steel. At present, he's escaping that through the casual clothes and through being earth-bound.

It could be that the show will end with Clark leaving town and heading to Metropolis, without resolving this issue of whether Lex and Lois would recognise Superman. Or there's the "they-all-miraculously-forget-the-last-seven-years" whammy, with Lex and Lois starting their lives in Metropolis with a tabula rasa as far as Clark and Superman are concerned. I really, really hope there's something better planned to explain it than that.

For me, this is one of the most intriguing parts of the show still to be resolved. That, plus Chloe, the Jor-El issue and the Lex-turning-EVIL thing.


Originally posted by psycosis
... I’ve been wishing for Lex to use Clarks secret ageist him for a while now, and would be a cool way to show Lex as the villain that he’s on the verge of becoming.

Yes, it would be a smart way to 'liberate' the character; having him fully aware of who his enemy is makes the conflict even more dramatic IMHO.

That said, I'm not sure TPTBs will go for it. Not to be cynical - I say that based on their track record for maintaining the status quo over the past five seasons. "Reckoning" was their most recent opportunity to really shake things up. They could have changed the format of the show entirely. They didn't. They chickened out and re-wound everything that the first 20 minutes of that episode promised.

Sadly, I imagine the same will be done here: Gough, Miller & Co won't want to introduce the loose canon that a "clued-in-to-Clark's-secret" Lex would be. Yeah, Lex would likely be extremely crafty with the information and keep it to himself until he knew he could inflict the most damage on Clark (as we've discussed in previous episode threads). But it would also be so easy for Lex to get "CLARK IS AN ALIEN!" plastered all over the morning papers and turn the show - and the Superman mythos - on its head. TPTBs have demonstrated that they don't want to do that. They feel the show's current format is working fine, and in all likelihood wouldn't want to rock the boat like that.

Meaning the wonderful stuff set up in "Vessel" will probably have been un-done by the end of the S6 premiere. :(

Here's hoping, though. Not sure if you're interested in this, guys, but the TITLE to the premiere was just posted on the Newspage/Spoiler section. If it doesn't count as too spoiler-y, let me know your thoughts on its significance.

[psycosis]

Originally posted by Krypto500
Do you think we'll even see the suit on this show, or will it only be hinted at? My guess was always that the show wouldn't want to get into that territory.

For me, this is one of the most intriguing parts of the show still to be resolved. That, plus Chloe, the Jor-El issue and the Lex-turning-EVIL thing.

No I don’t think we’ll see the suit at all or even get hinted at, I was just speaking fugitively. Though for the show to end without any resolution or reveal how the characters would see Superman (the next best thing to a disguise is for Superman to look different somehow) would be a tragic blow to all us fans.
As you say it’s the one MAJOR parts of the show that has EVERY fan wondering the same things……we can only wait with bated breath, and hope!!!


Originally posted by Krypto500
The wonderful stuff set up in "Vessel" will probably have been un-done by the end of the S6 premiere. :(

Why though, have Lionel know all and not Lex? It really is time they keep to there guns and rejuvenate the show and it’s “format” – really what is the point in shaking things up this much only for it to go back to normal again, for them to do it this time will be a REALLY bad move – even I as an obsessé (Smallvillian) would be prepared to wash my hands of all things Smallville! :mad:


Originally posted by Krypto500
Here's hoping, though. Not sure if you're interested in this, guys, but the TITLE to the premiere was just posted on the Newspage/Spoiler section. If it doesn't count as too spoiler-y, let me know your thoughts on its significance.

“Episode #6-1: Season Premiere” This is all I get – please tell me this isn’t it? :confused:
PM me the title name, as I’m interested to know what it is, ta.

[RMF]

Originally posted by Lex Dance
I want to see Chloe start a relationship with someone else to show Clark what he's missing - at the moment I'm not convinced that he sees her as anything more than his best friend.
Didn't they do that already, and wasn't it called "Crush"?

But seriously, I don't want them to take this route in having Clark discover his feelings for Chloe. After being served up five years of angst in the central romantic relationship of the show, I'd like to see something different. These two people actually know how to talk to one another. I don't like to see the relationship have a sort of negative jumping-off point that would make Clark look foolish yet again.


But most of all I DON'T want to see Lex forget all of the events of Vessel. I'd like to see Lex's new-found knowledge form the basis for the next chapter in his and Clark's increasingly sour relationship.
I think Lex has every reason not to remember what Zod does in his body. Either his spirit has been displaced by Zod's, or it is submerged by Zod's. It's logical that he will end up without Zod's knowledge. He should remember everything up until Clark throwing the knife at Brainiac, however. They can go in a number of directions with that, since Lex's understanding of Clark's situation is still so incomplete.


Originally posted by Krypto500
Still hoping that we'll see a full season of Lex having turned completely to the dark side and Clark dedicating his life to putting Lex - and others like him - behind bars. If that's the plan with Season 7, I'd like to see the groundwork for that laid down in Season 6.
I wonder, though -- Clark will presumably rescue Lex by purging Zod from his body, which would seem to be a reconciling act. If the next season is about Lex turning to the dark side, does this mean that something goes terribly wrong with this? That he ends up not knowing about Clark's role? That he ends up resenting Clark for it? Or that it just isn't enough to stay his fall?


I agree. One of the complications to this, though, is the Lois factor: she already knows 1) what Clark looks like without glasses, and 2) that Clark doesn't need glasses. (Unless he feigns sudden eye trouble to explain this ...) Meaning that the Lois in this incarnation would more than likely recognise Clark as Superman when they meet.
At this point, I figure they'll either just know who Superman is, or the writers will come up with something else, such as Random Heretofore Unheard-of Kryptonian Technology to incorporate into the suit so no one recognizes him in it.


A couple of threads contain posts by fans who argue that at this point it would be impossible for Lois OR Clark to become a journalist; "Thirst" showed how much Chloe struggled to get an obituary role at the DP, and she had years of amateur journalism experience on her CV. Clark has virtually nothing of the kind, and Lois is a college drop-out. Is it really believable that these two could somehow get reporter roles at the top newspaper in Metropolis?
Don't college campuses still have newspapers?


Originally posted by Krypto500
Not sure if you're interested in this, guys, but the TITLE to the premiere was just posted on the Newspage/Spoiler section. If it doesn't count as too spoiler-y, let me know your thoughts on its significance.
Seems like a "well, duh" sort of title.

One thing I'd like to see change next season is the tricky relationship between Clark and Jor-el. Jor-el has by turns bullied, mystified, and terrified Clark, but it's pretty clear that Clark will need his knowledge to stand up against mega-threats such as Zod. They have yet to establish, however, that there is common ground beyond that. One could say that Clark's failure to follow Jor-el exhortations are just an indication of stupidity or selfishness, but there are signs that it's about more than that. If Jor-el tells Clark to kill the vessel, but he refuses, and we know that Superman does not kill, then there is a meaningful philosophical conflict between them. Jor-el is an AI, which suggests that although he is good at calculating probabilities, there are certain limitations when it comes to moral nuances. It would be nice to see their interaction progress beyond Jor-el making unilateral decisions on Clark's behalf toward Clark developing his own code of behavior based on what he already believes and what he learns from him. Right now, Clark's getting jerked around.

[Krypto500]

Originally posted by RMF
These two people actually know how to talk to one another.

OK, so not a supporter of the Chlark 'ship. But shall I save you a seat at the Chloe fanclub! :lol:


Originally posted by RMF
I think Lex has every reason not to remember what Zod does in his body. Either his spirit has been displaced by Zod's, or it is submerged by Zod's.

Zod-in-Lex did say that Lex was "dead". At the very least, I'm guessing that means selective amnesia.


Originally posted by RMF
I wonder, though -- Clark will presumably rescue Lex by purging Zod from his body, which would seem to be a reconciling act.

I think it depends on how the Zod exorcism is depicted. My guess is Clark will be a lot less reluctant to kill the vessel after the PZ than he was before. And once that's done, it's not like Clark will exactly be thrilled to see Lex again. I think the 'purging' is more about ending Zod's reign than it is about helping Lex. I see what you're saying, but I don't think it'll be portrayed as a reconciliation, but more as a 'something-that-had-to-be-done' kind of act.


Originally posted by RMF
Random Heretofore Unheard-of Kryptonian Technology to incorporate into the suit so no one recognizes him in it.

Ingenius! I like it! Solves the Clark/Superman recognition thing in one swift stroke!


Originally posted by RMF
Don't college campuses still have newspapers?

:rotfl:

Wouldn't you agree that college newspaper ain't gonna plug this gaping plot hole? AlMiles figured it'd be alright to close their eyes, bury their heads in the sand and hope that the problem would go away. But Chloe worked her ass off running the Torch, and the best she could get at the DP to begin with were the Obit's. Are we really supposed to buy that within the next two seasons something's gonna propel Clark and Lois to ace reporter status at the Planet? Clark's dropped out of college, and Lois is ambling around as Martha's coordinator. A lot will need to change to set this up.


Originally posted by RMF
One thing I'd like to see change next season is the tricky relationship between Clark and Jor-el. Jor-el has by turns bullied, mystified, and terrified Clark, but it's pretty clear that Clark will need his knowledge to stand up against mega-threats such as Zod. ... If Jor-el tells Clark to kill the vessel, but he refuses, and we know that Superman does not kill, then there is a meaningful philosophical conflict between them. ... It would be nice to see their interaction progress beyond Jor-el making unilateral decisions on Clark's behalf toward Clark developing his own code of behavior based on what he already believes and what he learns from him. Right now, Clark's getting jerked around.

All awesome ideas. It'd make sense to examine their relationship after the PZ, because I imagine Clark will be a lot more receptive to learning about the threats he needs to face after that experience. It would also be cool to see Clark developing his 'superhero code' as a result of his training and his disagreements with Jor-El over ethical principles, as you say.

[RMF]

Originally posted by Krypto500
OK, so not a supporter of the Chlark 'ship. But shall I save you a seat at the Chloe fanclub! :lol:
Oh no, I'm definitely a supporter of the Clark-Chloe relationship. I just don't want a gimmick to propel them to get together.


I think it depends on how the Zod exorcism is depicted. My guess is Clark will be a lot less reluctant to kill the vessel after the PZ than he was before. And once that's done, it's not like Clark will exactly be thrilled to see Lex again. I think the 'purging' is more about ending Zod's reign than it is about helping Lex. I see what you're saying, but I don't think it'll be portrayed as a reconciliation, but more as a 'something-that-had-to-be-done' kind of act.
Not a full-fledged reconciliation, but a reconciling act. Of course the overriding reason to get rid of Zod is to get rid of Zod, but look how they pitch the situation to us in "Vessel". Once Clark realizes who the vessel is, he wears a look of dread. On one level, it is of course because he probably doesn't believe he has the right to execute someone to save others, because that is a coldly utilitarian act, but at the same time, he says to Lionel, would you still feel so pragmatic about the situation if it were your own son? And Lionel freezes. So even as estranged as they are, a reluctance to kill Lex himself does play a role in Clark's actions. And in the end, it will only be Clark's decision not to kill the vessel that allows Lex to return. Lex may remain unaware of it, or resent it, or discount it, but I'm interested how this will play out.


Wouldn't you agree that college newspaper ain't gonna plug this gaping plot hole?
I'm trying here. :lol: At least it would be something if they were taking college journalism courses and/or writing for the campus newspaper.

[psycosis]

Originally posted by RMF
At this point, I figure they'll either just know who Superman is, or the writers will come up with something else, such as Random Heretofore Unheard-of Kryptonian Technology to incorporate into the suit so no one recognizes him in it.

This was what I was suggesting (see below)...


Originally posted by psycosis
(the next best thing to a disguise is for Superman to look different somehow)

...I’ve heard this theory before and think it quite an interesting way to take the Superman mythos, though what would become of Clark Kent, would he still incorporate his glasses "disguise" even when he no longer needs it, would he be the bumbling clumsy Clark that he's portrayed as in the movies???

If not what would happen to the theory of Clark Kent being the refection of humanity as seen by Kal-el/Superman - further more how would Superman be able to be the honest hero he's well known for, if his very features are a lie?

One of Superman’s most unique qualities is that Superman was who he is and Clark Kent was the disguise, being able to show his true self though Superman gave Clark the much needed freedom he sought - if he has to hide who he really is as both Clark Kent and Superman, at what point would he be able to express his true self?

Though this does seem to offer the best solution for Smallville, it does present more complications for Clark himself. :\

[Krypto500]

Originally posted by RMF
Oh no, I'm definitely a supporter of the Clark-Chloe relationship. I just don't want a gimmick to propel them to get together.

Absolutely. It would be so lame to see the two of them together ... AGAIN! ... only to have them break up within five episodes because they realize "it won't work". I think this also ties in with the Clois issue, because obviously 'Smallville' isn't going to finish with Clark with anyone except Lois - and even that's not yet certain. DC are apparently very jittery about even hinting at this relationship. I imagine this is one of the things that we assume only happens after 'Smalville' ends and the characters are in Metropolis.

But for me it would be a bittersweet thing to see Chlark take shape. It would be so wonderful to see them together, but at the same time we know it's not going to last - not unless AlMiles really do go for the Chlois option.

As much of a 'shipper as I am, I also feel it's time to tone down the teen drama quota of the show and amp up the superhero undertones. With (likely) two seasons to go, we need to see Clark develop into Superman, Lex become evil incarnate, Jor-El's arc sorted out, Clark's decision to leave Smallville ... I think the relationships are a big part of all that, but we're at a point now where pretty much every episode needs to make some reference to Superman lore and mythos if the show is going to make its 'deadline'.


Originally posted by RMF
... Once Clark realizes who the vessel is, he wears a look of dread. ... So even as estranged as [Clark and Lionel] are [from Lex], a reluctance to kill Lex himself does play a role in Clark's actions.

All true, but I think Lionel's confrontation with Lex in the field and Clark's confrontation with Lex in the barn changed the dynamic between all of them: Lionel looks at Lex as a pseudo-Frankenstein ("What have they done to you? ... What have they turned you into?" *thrown at several hundred mph into a windscreen*); Clark admits to himself that Lex has been bitterly jealous of him over the years, and that Lex has been actively trying to take Clark's life away from him ("At least I walked away with the part you loved the most").

The "reluctance to kill Lex" - yes, but perhaps the emphasis is more on Clark doing the 'superhero' thing and not killing than it is on Clark's personal connection to Lex.

Seasons Four and Five both opened with Lex trying to make amends with Clark. At this point, I think that device is getting old. My guess is that this time, Lex won't make that effort. He's not sorry. Clark's not sorry. They're at an early nemesis stage now.


Originally posted by RMF
I'm trying here. :lol: At least it would be something if they were taking college journalism courses and/or writing for the campus newspaper.

Props to you for trying to defend shoddy character development. ;)

It's a lost cause, I fear. :(

Still, there are all manner of twists to ensure the expected outcome. The comics had Lex and Morgan Edge both buying the Planet and hiring/firing staff to suit their agendas. It'd be easy enough to write in a way for Clark and Lois to 'find' their way onto the journalism track. I just wish it could have happened of its own course - through the characters' genuine interest in investigative reporting. Sadly, it hasn't happened. (Yet.)


Originally posted by psycosis
One of Superman’s most unique qualities is that Superman was who he is and Clark Kent was the disguise, being able to show his true self though Superman gave Clark the much needed freedom he sought ...

Now this I find interesting, psycosis: do you see Superman as the 'real' him and Clark the disguise? I've never been able to decide what I think of the topic. Obviously as 'Clark', the character has to dramatize his clumsiness and naivete. But then as Superman, his whole life is wearing a costume and saving people's lives, giving him little opportunity to reveal his true character.

It's something which "Superman Returns" seems to explore: Bryan Singer has mentioned how he sees Brandon Routh portraying THREE characters (and in a way FOUR): Smallville Clark, adult Metropolis Clark, Superman and Kal-El. One scene has an adult Clark sans glasses at the Kent Farm talking to Martha. It's 'Superman' in casual clothes and being called 'Clark'. And yet we also see a very emotionally dragged-down and vulnerable side of Superman when he talks to Lois about how she's moved on and doesn't need a saviour in her life. The identities sort of spill over into one another. So for me, it's never been a clearcut division between which part of Clark/Superman is the 'real' one, and which is the disguise. They're all facets of one character appearing in different outlets.

At this point on 'Smallville', of course, there is no Superman. There are only hints of that character appearing in Clark. This is one of the great parts of 'Smallville' IMHO - we get to see an undisguised, 'un-dramatized' version of the Clark character. This is the true nature/demanour/disposition of the guy before he gets 'split' into three.

[RMF]

Originally posted by psycosis
I’ve heard this theory before and think it quite an interesting way to take the Superman mythos, though what would become of Clark Kent, would he still incorporate his glasses "disguise" even when he no longer needs it, would he be the bumbling clumsy Clark that he's portrayed as in the movies???

If not what would happen to the theory of Clark Kent being the refection of humanity as seen by Kal-el/Superman - further more how would Superman be able to be the honest hero he's well known for, if his very features are a lie?
Hasn't it always been problematic that the paragon of honesty leads a double life?


One of Superman’s most unique qualities is that Superman was who he is and Clark Kent was the disguise, being able to show his true self though Superman gave Clark the much needed freedom he sought - if he has to hide who he really is as both Clark Kent and Superman, at what point would he be able to express his true self?
"Smallville" has centered itself around imagining how a person would really feel as such an extraordinary being plunked down in the middle of such an ordinary setting. The natural instinct in his case is to want to be normal, and we see Clark time and again try for or yearn for a normal life. In this interpretation, he has a very strong identification with humans, so there is no clumsy, bumbling Clark, but there is a gentle, kind, self-effacing one. Clark Kent can still be the reflection of humanity as seen by Superman, but the buffoonish aspects are absent. My guess would be that however they solve the recognition problem, "Smallville" will wind up with Clark Kent as the identity that allows him to live or at least touch on a normal life, whereas Superman is the identity that allows him to be the superhero he is meant to be by biology and character, and they will both be authentic selves.


Originally posted by Krypto500
But for me it would be a bittersweet thing to see Chlark take shape. It would be so wonderful to see them together, but at the same time we know it's not going to last - not unless AlMiles really do go for the Chlois option.

As much of a 'shipper as I am, I also feel it's time to tone down the teen drama quota of the show and amp up the superhero undertones. With (likely) two seasons to go, we need to see Clark develop into Superman, Lex become evil incarnate, Jor-El's arc sorted out, Clark's decision to leave Smallville ... I think the relationships are a big part of all that, but we're at a point now where pretty much every episode needs to make some reference to Superman lore and mythos if the show is going to make its 'deadline'.
That's why I'd love to see them get together, but have it be a much different kind of romance than we've been subjected to so far. Lana was all angst and distracted Clark from his destiny; Chloe has become about supporting it. A positive, more mature relationship between the two of them could help him realize his role.

[psycosis]

Originally posted by Krypto500
Now this I find interesting, psycosis: do you see Superman as the 'real' him and Clark the disguise? I've never been able to decide what I think of the topic. Obviously as 'Clark', the character has to dramatize his clumsiness and naivete. But then as Superman, his whole life is wearing a costume and saving people's lives, giving him little opportunity to reveal his true character.

Well to an extent yes Superman is the refection of his true character, who is Kal-el - and Clark Kent becomes the disguise - but as you say there is really another side of the character that is the Clark Kent we see in Smallville, who is closest to who he really is - though in essence this is Kal-el, since Clark is a given name and not his real name.

Though of course to his parents he will always be known as Clark no matter how he appears - but I’d say there is no "real" part of the (young/old) Clark/Superman/Kal-el character there are all integrated into the same person, though old Clark is more of an act than a proper aspect of his character.

But when asked who is the disguise Clark or Superman - I’d say Clark - BUT to that end Kal-el is who he really is, since Superman is the public face of that aspect of whom he is!

It can get confusing - I know! I’ll look forward to seeing how Singer explores the different aspects of Superman's identity.


Originally posted by RMF
Hasn't it always been problematic that the paragon of honesty leads a double life?

I’d say that when he’s Superman he’s at his most honest – he is showing the world who he is, what he can do, and what he stands for, it’s only when he becomes Clark that he is living a lie.


Originally posted by RMF
"Smallville" has centered itself around imagining how a person would really feel as such an extraordinary being plunked down in the middle of such an ordinary setting. The natural instinct in his case is to want to be normal, and we see Clark time and again try for or yearn for a normal life. In this interpretation, he has a very strong identification with humans, so there is no clumsy, bumbling Clark, but there is a gentle, kind, self-effacing one. Clark Kent can still be the reflection of humanity as seen by Superman, but the buffoonish aspects are absent. My guess would be that however they solve the recognition problem, "Smallville" will wind up with Clark Kent as the identity that allows him to live or at least touch on a normal life, whereas Superman is the identity that allows him to be the superhero he is meant to be by biology and character, and they will both be authentic selves.


So can we assume that in this version, Superman’s critique on humanity would be a “good” one in that Clark is seen as “gentle” rather than “weak”, or “self-effacing” rather than “bumbling”? There are quite a few moments in Smallville where Clark is seen as “geeky” or “dumb” – are these his true qualities?

So with Clark’s identities he has the best of both worlds, there is no predominant self?
There are both equal reflections of who he is???
But how can he be both since he’s not, he is Kal-el this will always be true, which identity would best portray that he is in fact an alien from a distant world with powers far greater than a human.
When he is living as a human he is lying to himself and others, it may give him the outlet of his emotions and such, and in this it is no less needed than the Superman guise – but unless he inhabits multiple personalities, one must take precedence over the other.

[Krypto500]

Originally posted by psycosis
Well to an extent yes Superman is the refection of his true character, who is Kal-el - and Clark Kent becomes the disguise - but as you say there is really another side of the character that is the Clark Kent we see in Smallville, who is closest to who he really is - though in essence this is Kal-el, since Clark is a given name and not his real name.

... unless he inhabits multiple personalities, one must take precedence over the other.

'Smallville' has sort of put its own twist on the mythology, though, because in this incarnation Clark and Kal-El are two radically different people. "Crusade" shows a brain-washed, Jor-El-induced zombie; Kal-El has all of the Kryptonian training and powers at his fingertips, but it's not like there's any of Clark in there. This Kal-El is pretty monstrous: unfeeling, unsympathetic, relentless - kind of like the Terminator. :lol:

So in that sense, 'Smallville' seems to be saying there are multiple personalities involved.

The way I see it, the Clark on this show at present is the 'original' character before he splits himself into two. No disguise, no deliberate clumsiness, some hero-complex but not to the extent that we know will later emerge.

[psycosis]

Originally posted by Krypto500
'Smallville' has sort of put its own twist on the mythology, though, because in this incarnation Clark and Kal-El are two radically different people. "Crusade" shows a brain-washed, Jor-El-induced zombie; Kal-El has all of the Kryptonian training and powers at his fingertips, but it's not like there's any of Clark in there. This Kal-El is pretty monstrous: unfeeling, unsympathetic, relentless - kind of like the Terminator. :lol:

Clark was taken to a place that, "felt like home" and when he returned he was reborn - so all he knew was the Kal-el side to himself - or perhaps he wasn't himself at all; "a brain-washed" something you seem to say yourself.

In any case he wasn't acting the way he'd act naturally - so I’d say that wasn't a true refection of the Kal-el personality.

[RMF]

Originally posted by psycosis
I’d say that when he’s Superman he’s at his most honest – he is showing the world who he is, what he can do, and what he stands for, it’s only when he becomes Clark that he is living a lie.
But "Smallville" has presented us with a character who is biologically Kryptonian but culturally human. That "human" aspect of him can't be discounted as a lie. The Kryptonians we've seen have been cold and authoritarian, but that's not Clark and that's not Superman, either. Kryptonians may share with humans the values of duty and responsibility, but they've also shown a rather utilitarian approach to moral issues. I would guess that Clark's personality will be ultimately shaped as much by human values as Kryptonian powers. He will have one personality but two roles in life, neither of which is more of a "lie" than the other.

[Krypto500]

Tempted to say it's more than just "culturally human" - as Superman, he embodies the best of humanity: compassion, idealism, courage. The alien comes to represent the best part of us, the audience, more than we do ourselves. That's one of the points Singer stresses in interviews: Superman is like a metaphor for an immigrant, adapting to his culture and ultimately representing it.

Like you say, RMF, the Kryptonians we've seen so far (Jor-El, sort of; Kal-El in "Crusade"; Zod's lackeys) are devoid of humanity. In a way, the choice between Kryptonian values and Earth values splits Clark much as his dual identity later will. That choice is a no-brainer, of course, but interestingly it's a choice which previous incarnations of Clark and Superman didn't have to make. The other versions of Jor-El and Krypton's population weren't b*****ds like these ones. ('Cept for Zod, Ursa and Non in 'SII')

Perhaps we just haven't met the 'nice' Kryptonians yet? Could be something to explore in relation to the PZ and FoS arcs.