Does Lionel's change in character diminish JK's death?

[watcher4]

what do you think?

[KEakaCK]

But you can't blame JK for wanting to protect his son from Lionel...After all, Lionel was never trust worthy and never really had any reason to till tonights episode.

[EricN68]

I still don't entirely trust LL. I think he's got something up his sleeve.

[shaula luthor]

Perhaps.... but it doens´t make any sense to me.....
Why after his dead? To have Martha for him.....?

[F-Stop Blues]

Since I believe that Lionel is JE, my thoery is that JE went to the Kent barn to "collect" on the price of Clark's mortality. Someone had to die and since Clark chose Lana over everyone, JE went to finish the job.

[shaula luthor]

And at first..... when Lana died?
Ok...... forget it.... :P

[Summers]

I voted yes it does for me. Furthermore, to me makes the death unnecessary. Was it really needed? Did someone have to die to put Clark in a better light? To me it's all about ratings. A balance in the universe does not wait until sweeps :lol:.

[Kryptonian Snake]

Yes, it does. After watching this episode, Lionel's demeanor during his confrontation with Jonathan in Reckoning doesn't really make sense. He approached Jonathan in typical MB form when it was clear that Jonathan assumed Lionel was trying to blackmail him. If Lionel had Clark's best interests at heart, why didn't he quickly quell Jonathan's fears and spill the beans regarding what he knew about Clark's destiny?

Oh...right...they needed it to be dramatic so JK would have a heart attack, die, and hopefully pull in viewers.

[bluegayle]

His death was diminished already when nothing useful came of it.

It doesn't matter if Lana turns evil and Lionel turns good...the next few episodes, Clark will be buddies with whoever is good in the story arc.

So imo JK's death impact was lost when the writers didn't know what to do with it.

[jcore0429]

I think JKs death changed Lionel, i doubt he meant for JK to die, just because he had certain knowledge about Clark and Krypton dosent mean he knows everythng. Plus we dont really know what LL wanted when he confronted JK he may have wanted to do good things, but Lionel being Lionel he didnt know how to just ask, so he used his tried and true gestapo tactics.

[ClarkSupportsOrganic]

Maybe...
But the writers are saying Jonathon Kent's death is supposed to figure in big during the finale so we'll see!

[shaula luthor]

Originally posted by Kryptonian Snake
Yes, it does. After watching this episode, Lionel's demeanor during his confrontation with Jonathan in Reckoning doesn't really make sense. He approached Jonathan in typical MB form when it was clear that Jonathan assumed Lionel was trying to blackmail him. If Lionel had Clark's best interests at heart, why didn't he quickly quell Jonathan's fears and spill the beans regarding what he knew about Clark's destiny?

Oh...right...they needed it to be dramatic so JK would have a heart attack, die, and hopefully pull in viewers.
Agreed!
I think Lionel is just lying..... He wants Martha... That´s why he´s being "good"

[F-Stop Blues]

Again, someone had to die and JE had to collect so thats what he did. Did JK die protecting Clarks secret? In his mind he did but in reality no, he didnt.

[Watching Smallville]

Lionel's been good since Transference.

[LuckyKrypto]

The jury is still out on Lionel, at least to me anyways....I am not entirely convinced that he is all good...if you know what I mean. I have a hard time believing that any Luthor is truly good;) , there has to be something more......

I don't see how if Lionel is good, how that would diminsh Jonathan's death??
:confused:

[LuthorRequiem2]

"I think JKs death changed Lionel, i doubt he meant for JK to die, just because he had certain knowledge about Clark and Krypton dosent mean he knows everythng. Plus we dont really know what LL wanted when he confronted JK he may have wanted to do good things, but Lionel being Lionel he didnt know how to just ask, so he used his tried and true gestapo tactics."

I totally agree with this statement. At least at this point, it seems that Lionel is trying to be good, or at least, a better man than he once was, but doesn't know how. He probably thinks his attempts at philanthropy failed miserably last year after seeing that he couldn't have a close relationship with Lex because Lex was too far down the line of evil, so he decided to give up that sugary-sweet approach to good that he was trying and instead use his Luthor-like tactics for the betterment of the world (as opposed to using his tactics to harm people like he did before). My question still lies with the episode "Vengeance". Did he kill that girl's mom in that episode or not? Cuz if he did, then he's evil. If not, then maybe he's good....please, if anyone has theories on that, post them, please. :)

[Watching Smallville]

I don't know. He said Vengeance was "woefully misguided" and we never heard his side of the story. He told Martha he was trying to get Lex back his humanity by taking LuthorCorp.

He's been good since Transference. He just doesn't have good people skills. He has evil people skills -- so he uses his old ways to try to do good thinkgs.

[F-Stop Blues]

Originally posted by Watching Smallville
Lionel's been good since Transference.

I was thinking about this today, was Lionel protecting Clark in Forever when Jason was about to tell Lex about Clark?

[LuthorRequiem2]

Watcing Smallville,
You bring up good points. And you're right, Lionel DID say, "Woefully misguided" or something along those lines. I do hope that this comes into play though again. To leave a mystery like that without exploring it would be a plothole in character development in my opinion.

What about Lionel's "I have returned" thing in "Vengeance"? Was that just part of his plan to test Lex by acting like his old self? Like you said, Watching Smallville, maybe he doesn't know how to use good tactics so he uses ruthless ones, although his goal is not evil, but good.

[hassenmorad]

What do you mean when you say "diminish his death"? What are you refering to?

[Ephrils]

Yeah, we STILL haven't heard his side of the story, nor have we seen the photograph. We just assumed it was Clark saving Lana from "Lockdown" like we saw on the screen. It could've been something else entirely.

[LuckyKrypto]

I still don't see how if Lionel is truly transformed as a good person, how that has anything to do with Jonathan's death. How would that diminish his death??:confused:

[Watching Smallville]

I don't think it does. Jonathan had a habit of being impulsive -- like when he smashed the vial of Clark's blood in Phoenix without thinking -- maybe we should hold onto this. And he's always hated Lionel -- and he had good reasons. And he's always done anything to protect Clark. The only time we see him being violent on the show is when he's protecting Clark. So what happened in the barn was totallly true to form for Jonathan. It doesn't matter whether Lionel was good or bad at the time.

I miss Jonathan. :(

[LuckyKrypto]

That's what I was getting at. I agree with you Watching Smallville about Jonathan.
While I am not totally convinced that Lionel is going to stay good, I can't see how his being good or bad would diminish Jonathan's death.

[alienkinfolk]

Originally posted by Watching Smallville
He's been good since Transference. He just doesn't have good people skills. He has evil people skills -- so he uses his old ways to try to do good thinkgs.


agreed!
lionel has been working on changing his character for awhile.After TRANSFERENCE he gradually tries to do what he feels is the right thing to do. He's just a by-any-means-neccessary type of guy.
He tried to warn jk but his appraoch was wrong. He admired and respected jk but they were not friends.
Remember when he greeeted lex with 'the the kents pack quite a punch'. (the ep name eludes me this moment)
if someone kicked my A- alot i'd always have my defenses up around them even if i was trying to help em out.

[Chlark Kent]

If Lionel has indeed changed, then it does diminish JK's death. He basically died for Lana then, not for Clark.
Originally posted by Watching Smallville
I don't know. He said Vengeance was "woefully misguided" and we never heard his side of the story. He told Martha he was trying to get Lex back his humanity by taking LuthorCorp.

He's been good since Transference. He just doesn't have good people skills. He has evil people skills -- so he uses his old ways to try to do good thinkgs.

Sort of like when Lisa helps Mr Burns start a recycling plant on The Simpsons and he turns it into an oceanic slaughter house to create animal slurry and low cost home insulation. He thinks he's helping the world, but Lisa thinks he's more of a monster than ever. You can't change who you are I guess:lol:

[Watching Smallville]

Originally posted by Chlark Kent
If Lionel has indeed changed, then it does diminish JK's death. He basically died for Lana then, not for Clark.
I think you could argue it either way, regardless of whether Lionel was good or bad.

[charmedchick]

I really cant vote on this one.. because for me its still up in the air...

[spideyfan]

Originally posted by Watching Smallville
Lionel's been good since Transference.

I concur...It doesnt cheapen JK's death.

He would have dies eventually....Lionel just allowed it to happen there...JK did have a temper problem even cuz Martha mentions that.

In the end Jor-El made this happen. Lionel was just there when it did.

[shaula luthor]

If he died for Lana, he died for nothing :(

[last man of krypton]

Originally posted by LuthorRequiem2
Watcing Smallville,
You bring up good points. And you're right, Lionel DID say, "Woefully misguided" or something along those lines. I do hope that this comes into play though again. To leave a mystery like that without exploring it would be a plothole in character development in my opinion.

(sigh) When it comes to plotholes in character development, this show has gophers all over the field.

I do think JK died for nothing. When Lionel told Martha, I was thinking "so effectively he killed himself for no reason at all. If he hadn't been so rash (which I'm sure he's warned Clark against being at some point) he would've been fine". (Heh, I just made a pun.)

[Watching Smallville]

Well, if you mean, nothing good resulted from his death, I completely agree. But it was a sacrifice. Jonathan believed he was protecting Clark. In his mind, he was defending his son. As for impacting events, his death changed nothing -- except that he died. Which is a shame.

[Kryptonian_unforgiven]

Originally posted by F-Stop Blues
Since I believe that Lionel is JE, my thoery is that JE went to the Kent barn to "collect" on the price of Clark's mortality. Someone had to die and since Clark chose Lana over everyone, JE went to finish the job.

I have to disagree. Jor-El DID say that the life of someone Clark cared about would be taken,but that doesn't mean that it was he himself would be the one to do it. I think that Jor-El merely put things into motion,& chose Lana at random,or perhaps because she seemed "unnessary". Some people think it was because of the whole Lana/Louise thing but i don't think so. Jor-El would not be cruel enough to put Clark through the same ordeal of losing the love of your life.Yes,i know he still took the life of someone Clark cared about,but im speaking in terms of "true love", not the love of a friend or family member. It was mentioned that Lionel had been trying to contact Jonathan for awhile now,and the fact that Jonathan took the news of Lionel knowing Clarks secret overboard,unfortunately.I dont''t think that Lionel is Jor-El,but merely an "oracle" as Lionel himself put it,for a higher power.Jor-El does not inhabit Lionel,but merely uses him as a reciever.

[watcher4]

Originally posted by ClarkSupportsOrganic
Maybe...
But the writers are saying Jonathon Kent's death is supposed to figure in big during the finale so we'll see!

Since "Vessel" will be a continuation of "Oracle", could this have been the Brainiac being JK? Do you think that there is something more?:confused:

[CB2006]

I agree that making Lionel look like a good guy does make Jonathan's death look pointless, especially with all the hype and speculation concerning the 100th episode. Lionel's explaination to Martha about what happened that night made Jonathan look too ill-tempered and a poor judge of character and himself(Lionel) just an innocent bystander. I believe Lionel did not have any good intentions in mind when he arranged a secret meeting the night of the election, especially when he said on the phone, "now that we won", and he was so smug when he showed Jonathan the picture. He did not look like he was protecting Clark and willing to be an ally to Jonathan. Also, Jonathan told Clark in heaven that he knew what was in Clark's future and to keep Martha safe, so maybe this warning goes beyond the events in Reckoning. If not, then the development of both characters(Lionel being the bad guy and Jonathan hating him) throughout the series to this point, to me, will seem pointless.

[son2380]

JK died for no reason. Clark is still in limbo and isn't moving anywhere near his destiny. What was the purpose of JK death? Other than to please the fans by killing him instead of killing the most logical and most popular character.

[Watching Smallville]

I wasn't pleased. Why kill either one? TPTB didn't think this through at all -- at least that's how it seems now. I hope we get some payoff in Vessel, but whatever the payoff is, I doubt it will be worth losing JS from the show.

[watcher4]

Originally posted by son2380
JK died for no reason. Clark is still in limbo and isn't moving anywhere near his destiny. What was the purpose of JK death? Other than to please the fans by killing him instead of killing the most logical and most popular character.


Originally posted by Watching Smallville
I wasn't pleased. Why kill either one? TPTB didn't think this through at all -- at least that's how it seems now. I hope we get some payoff in Vessel, but whatever the payoff is, I doubt it will be worth losing JS from the show.

You both bring up some good points! That was my rationale for starting this thread. Expression. Debate.

Although in Void Jonathan said that he was proud that he died protecting Clark, it is beginning to apprear-to me-that in reality JK died for nothing. That does not invalidate a father's death or a son losing his father or a wife losing her husband. I mean, that with all the hype of the 100th, I was expecting more from the aftermath of Jonathan's death.

Also, since I am a JK/JS fan, it really stings to know that SV basically "sacrificed" such a fine actor and paternal character for the sake of ego. I know that kind of thing probably happens all the time in the business. Yet, I agree that TPTB did not think it through. I know that JK dies in the movies. Yet, he did not have to die during the 100th. :mad:

*******

For those of you who are asking what I meant by diminish
1. to make less
2. to grow less in scope and intensity
3. to lessen the authority, dignity or reputation of
4. to become gradually less

[LuckyKrypto]

Originally posted by son2380
JK died for no reason. Clark is still in limbo and isn't moving anywhere near his destiny. What was the purpose of JK death? Other than to please the fans by killing him instead of killing the most logical and most popular character.

I would disagree with you a little bit on this. While I have wondered at times how slow they could drag things out with Clark since the 100th episode, I don't think he is in limbo. He is moving forward, but he is doing it very slowly. I mean, I am talking baby steps here:) I am really waiting to see how this last episode plays out. I have high hopes I guess, and I also hope after the movie is out we will get a little better writing on Clark's progression. (Yes, I am assuming that the movie is why they seem to be dragging their feet, of course that is also why I think they killed JK as soon as they did) :(

[Watching Smallville]

Originally posted by watcher4
Also, since I am a JK/JS fan, it really stings to know that SV basically "sacrificed" such a fine actor and paternal character for the sake of ego.
watcher4, what do you mean by "for the sake of ego"?

BTW, fine actor and paternal character says it all. I'm mad, too. :mad: Still.

[watcher4]

Originally posted by Watching Smallville
watcher4, what do you mean by "for the sake of ego"?

BTW, fine actor and paternal character says it all. I'm mad, too. :mad: Still.

Personally, I don't believe that the only reason that JK died and JS had to leave the show was for the plot. After reading some of the articles out there, JK's death made room for other actor(s) to have larger role(s). It appears that a larger role is something that the other actor(s) had been "campaigning" for. Like I said, I am sure this kind of thing happens all the time in the business. I'm just still mad that JK had to die....even if he has made a couple of appearances from beyond the grave. Fans of any of the other major characters would still be mad too.

[Watching Smallville]

Thanks, watcher4. All I can say is, if they booted JS so someone else could shine, it didn't work. No one seems any more important to me than they did before Reckoning. Bad decision all around.