Clarks discussion about Jor-EL [Archive] - KSiteTV Television & Movie Forums

bunkmania

04-13-2006, 10:18 PM

Ok, when Clark was talking to the little girl Mattie, she asked him whether or not he met his real father. Clark responded "sorta.." She then asked him whether his father (Jor-EL) was "Mean like mine??".... and clark said

"maybe worse..... just because he gave me life doesnt mean im anything like him"

wtf??? Why does clark hate jor-el still? In arrival he welcomed him home, in hidden, he brough him back to life, in solitude, he learned zod was the evil one and Jor-el was the intelligent peaceful man of the people. I thought that his perception changed??? Maybe even slightly?? In reckoning, granted jonathans life was sacrificed, but he told clark it was a lesson he needed to learn in order to mature ....He saved lionel's life in vengeance partly because he knew his body was an oracle for kryptonian knowlegde for jor-el to inhabit if he ever needed him.

After this episode its still apparent he still hates jor-el.... but why?

Jor-el is vital to superman....i dont understand why Clark still bashes him regardless of prior seasons. After smallville jor-el is the one clark calls father and goes to for advice. When is the show going to make jor el a positive influence on his life?

hassenmorad

04-13-2006, 10:25 PM

Originally posted by bunkmania
Ok, when Clark was talking to the little girl Mattie, she asked him whether or not he met his real father. Clark responded "sorta.." She then asked him whether his father (Jor-EL) was "Mean like mine??".... and clark said

"maybe worse..... just because he gave me life doesnt mean im anything like him"

wtf??? Why does clark hate jor-el still? In arrival he welcomed him home, in hidden, he brough him back to life, in solitude, he learned zod was the evil one and Jor-el was the intelligent peaceful man of the people. I thought that his perception changed??? Maybe even slightly?? In reckoning, granted jonathans life was sacrificed, but he told clark it was a lesson he needed to learn in order to mature ....He saved lionel's life in vengeance partly because he knew his body was an oracle for kryptonian knowlegde for jor-el to inhabit if he ever needed him.

After this episode its still apparent he still hates jor-el.... but why?

Jor-el is vital to superman....i dont understand why Clark still bashes him regardless of prior seasons. After smallville jor-el is the one clark calls father and goes to for advice. When is the show going to make jor el a positive influence on his life?
Yea, I was a bit confused as well. However, after reading your comment I realized that Clark may feel Jor-El was the one responsible for Johnathan's death. This is the only rational possibility that comes to mind.

He Who Lurks

04-13-2006, 10:27 PM

In this show, Jor-el is a bastard of such magnificence that only Lionel surpasses him. Jor-el saved Clark's life, true. However, he's also the one who made it possible for him to be killed in the first place. He's done nothing but try to completely rule his son's life from beyond the grave. All his "lessons" are unneccessarily cruel (usually involving the death or serious injury of people close to Clark). His only method of persuasion is threat, and he appears to have absolutely no respect at all for the safety and/or lives of human beings. He doesn't know Clark at all.

In conclusion, he deserves to be exactly where he is... Hell.

superspider02

04-13-2006, 10:29 PM

well i think he still does not know what is true about jorel and not true and still does not liek him to some degree.

bunkmania

04-13-2006, 10:32 PM

hassenmorad

04-13-2006, 10:34 PM

Originally posted by He Who Lurks
In this show, Jor-el is a bastard of such magnificence that only Lionel surpasses him. ... In conclusion, he deserves to be exactly where he is... Hell.
What do you mean by "Hell"?

He Who Lurks

04-13-2006, 10:37 PM

Yes. "Strict" is a good word for it, though I prefer the phrase "freaking insane".

Every time I think of "Covenant" I get a little hot under the collar.

And by "Hell", I was utilizing hyperbole to state my opinion that I'm glad he's dead. Though, in all honesty, if I were a Christian that's exactly where I think he'd be.

MBCorp

04-13-2006, 10:40 PM

Smallville's version of Jor-El is a monster, I don't blame Clark for hating him. And I don't think Clark should ever call Jor-El "father". Jonathan should be the only one that he thinks of as a father.

shaula luthor

04-13-2006, 10:43 PM

bobser

04-13-2006, 10:44 PM

Maybe Jor-el isn't Jor-el.

bunkmania

04-13-2006, 10:44 PM

Originally posted by MBCorp
Smallville's version of Jor-El is a monster, I don't blame Clark for hating him. And I don't think Clark should ever call Jor-El "father". Jonathan should be the only one that he thinks of as a father.

I dont know about labeling him a monster. When clark was in the fortress with chloe, and she was dieing, didnt he let young superman go save her? Hes not a monster, just over protective and demanding. A dark force from krypton was awakened. what would u do?

hassenmorad

04-13-2006, 10:44 PM

Originally posted by MBCorp
Smallville's version of Jor-El is a monster, I don't blame Clark for hating him. And I don't think Clark should ever call Jor-El "father". Jonathan should be the only one that he thinks of as a father.
The way Clark put it, "father" is a more formal term (biological) whereas "dad" is the true male fatherly figure.

shaula luthor

04-13-2006, 10:48 PM

Originally posted by bunkmania
I dont know about labeling him a monster. When clark was in the fortress with chloe, and she was dieing, didnt he let young superman go save her? Hes not a monster, just over protective and demanding. A dark force from krypton was awakened. what would u do?
After Clark almost cried for he lets him to save her.
For me, Jor-El is a monster. I agree with MBCorp.

He Who Lurks

04-13-2006, 10:51 PM

Seriously. Clark's father LETS him save his best friend of half a decade, after Clark begs him. Then he threatens Clark again. Nominate the man for sainthood!

He's a jerk of the highest order.

bunkmania

04-13-2006, 10:58 PM

Jor-EL is just trying to get clark to think on a broader scale. he told him his weakness was that he cares too much about individuals. When you do that you risk the fate of the entire planet....................... Or was he wrong in your opinions?

If it wasnt for jor-el clark would probably still be lana lusting, probably even married to her....

But still, he still let clark save chloe.... Jor el is not an evil man. he was a grand scientist, and loyal to krypton. He just knows what needs to be done in order to get clark out of his drama riddled mine into superman.

OutlawAngel

04-13-2006, 10:58 PM

I am hoping that the Jor El we have known so far on Smallville is not really Jor-El. Because I know Smallville is different in many ways from the comics and over all that doesnt bother me because I dont read the comics, but with Jor-El he should be a good character.

And I do view Jor El as a villian. Instead of letting Clark learn things for himself and make his own choices Jor El hurts Clark and everyone Clark cares about. True it was Clark's fault that he destroyed the ship and Clark went into Exhile and that is why Jonathan in the end died but it was Jor El who forced Clark into the desperate deciscion to destroy the ship. I mean for geesh sakes Jor El first told Clark he must rule the planet and then carved that symbol onto his chest and then made a deal with Jonathan that not only pretty much got Jonathan killed but also turned Clark into a mindless droid and then he striped Clark of his powers so when Clark got killed it cost Jonathan his life.

I have a hard time seeing why Clark should like Jor El or see him as a good dad.

bunkmania

04-13-2006, 11:01 PM

Originally posted by OutlawAngel
I am hoping that the Jor El we have known so far on Smallville is not really Jor-El. Because I know Smallville is different in many ways from the comics and over all that doesnt bother me because I dont read the comics, but with Jor-El he should be a good character.

And I do view Jor El as a villian. Instead of letting Clark learn things for himself and make his own choices Jor El hurts Clark and everyone Clark cares about. True it was Clark's fault that he destroyed the ship and Clark went into Exhile and that is why Jonathan in the end died but it was Jor El who forced Clark into the desperate deciscion to destroy the ship. I mean for geesh sakes Jor El first told Clark he must rule the planet and then carved that symbol onto his chest and then made a deal with Jonathan that not only pretty much got Jonathan killed but also turned Clark into a mindless droid and then he striped Clark of his powers so when Clark got killed it cost Jonathan his life.

I have a hard time seeing why Clark should like Jor El or see him as a good dad.

99% of the time i would agree with you. I would say that most of the time parents think theyre doing the right thing for their kids when they really arent. But think this is the 1% of the time where the parent is right....

shaula luthor

04-13-2006, 11:03 PM

Originally posted by bunkmania
He just knows what needs to be done in order to get clark out of his drama riddled mine into superman.
Making it if to move away from all the ones that it loves? (Exodus) and killing his dad????
Wierd way...............

MBCorp

04-13-2006, 11:04 PM

Originally posted by bunkmania
Jor-EL is just trying to get clark to think on a broader scale. he told him his weakness was that he cares too much about individuals. When you do that you risk the fate of the entire planet....................... Or was he wrong in your opinions?

If it wasnt for jor-el clark would probably still be lana lusting, probably even married to her....

But still, he still let clark save chloe.... Jor el is not an evil man. he was a grand scientist, and loyal to krypton. He just knows what needs to be done in order to get clark out of his drama riddled mine into superman.

See, Jor-El telling Clark that he cares too much about individuals is a huge example of just how much of a monster this version of Jor-El is. That is a terrible viewpoint to have. There's no way that this version of Jor-El can help Clark to embrace his destiny as Superman. Superman does care for individuals, it's part of who he is and what he does. He cares about people and he saves them. And Clark gets that part of him from Jonathan and Martha, not from Jor-El.

Look, I know that people want to think good of Jor-El because in other Superman movies/comics/tv shows he is shown to be good, but this version of Jor-El is a monster and has done monsterous things. That's why so many people have thought that he was General Zod just pretending to be Jor-El.

shaula luthor

04-13-2006, 11:06 PM

Originally posted by MBCorp
See, Jor-El telling Clark that he cares too much about individuals is a huge example of just how much of a monster this version of Jor-El is. That is a terrible viewpoint to have. There's no way that this version of Jor-El can help Clark to embrace his destiny as Superman. Superman does care for individuals, it's part of who he is and what he does. He cares about people and he saves them. And Clark gets that part of him from Jonathan and Martha, not from Jor-El.

Look, I know that people want to think good of Jor-El because in other Superman movies/comics/tv shows he is shown to be good, but this version of Jor-El is a monster and has done monsterous things. That's why so many people have thought that he was General Zod just pretending to be Jor-El.
I can´t agree more! :D

bunkmania

04-13-2006, 11:07 PM

He Who Lurks

04-13-2006, 11:09 PM

Jor-el seems to have absolutely no interest in getting Clark to help people. That's all Jonathon.

Theshadow129x

04-13-2006, 11:10 PM

Well the Jor-el from the moves and comics wasnt so.....agressive with his son. This one is like...evil to the highest degree. He killed Kara, almost told clark to let chloe die, strangled johnathan, and killed him. this Jor-el is doing horrible things to get his point across. I dont blame clark for seeing him as a Basterd. all of this stuff that he puts clark through isnt required to make someone a hero.

WangTang

04-13-2006, 11:10 PM

smallville Jor-el makes Lex and Lional look like a saint. Jor-el knows the only reason he sent clark to earth cause their planet was about to blow up, thats it. Im not sure where this other crap keeps comeing up from.

j-kent

04-13-2006, 11:23 PM

Originally posted by He Who Lurks
In this show, Jor-el is a bastard of such magnificence that only Lionel surpasses him. Jor-el saved Clark's life, true. However, he's also the one who made it possible for him to be killed in the first place. He's done nothing but try to completely rule his son's life from beyond the grave. All his "lessons" are unneccessarily cruel (usually involving the death or serious injury of people close to Clark). His only method of persuasion is threat, and he appears to have absolutely no respect at all for the safety and/or lives of human beings. He doesn't know Clark at all.

In conclusion, he deserves to be exactly where he is... Hell.

hmm...you're speculation about Jor-El's portrayal is kinda interesting. Lacks knowledge of history...

You see Jor-El is vital to the birth of Superman. That is something I think all Superman related series must abide to this mythology. Now, many series and silverage comics refer to Jor-El as being enlightening, wise, and supplemental to Clark's destiny. But SV does like to change its scheme and twists mythology in their own ways.

As harsh as it appears, ultimately Jor-El is steering (and in this show, is TRYING...ATTEMPTING in the most methodical way) Clark to be a man like no other...Superman. When Jor-El took the life of someone close to Clark was for a greater benefit that many would see wrong in a sense. Let's look at it this way...how can Clark really know the value of life if he doesn't experience true life firsthand...that is to lose someone you love. As harsh as it may sound, one will truly know how vital the life around you is. As super as he is and when trouble brews, Clark is there to save all- he still needs to know that he is not omnipotent- and that is what pushes him and unlocks his potential to be more than just a hero.

In Byrne's version of superman, Jonathan had died and shortly after did Martha.

You see, I don't think they're trying to make Jor-El out to be a totally wrongful horrible father, just a hard one. Whatever harsh crap he says about humans i think is just a ploy so Cal-El can deal with Kryptonian matters...such as Zod trying to come down to earth, and maybe braniac.

It all jumps the shark though...doesn't really fit well, and its fine because you know what? It's entertaining and that's why were still loyal and watching!

bunkmania

04-13-2006, 11:26 PM

Originally posted by j-kent
hmm...you're speculation about Jor-El's portrayal is kinda interesting. Lacks knowledge of history...

You see Jor-El is vital to the birth of Superman. That is something I think all Superman related series must abide to this mythology. Now, many series and silverage comics refer to Jor-El as being enlightening, wise, and supplemental to Clark's destiny. But SV does like to change its scheme and twists mythology in their own ways.

As harsh as it appears, ultimately Jor-El is steering [i](and in this show, is TRYING...ATTEMPTING) Clark to be a man like no other...Superman. When Jor-El took the life of someone close to Clark was for a greater benefit that many would see wrong in a sense. Let's look at it this way...how can Clark really know the value of life if he doesn't experience true life firsthand...that is to lose someone you love. As harsh as it may sound, one will truly know how vital the life around you is. As super as he is and when trouble brews, Clark is there to save all- he still needs to know that he is not omnipotent- and that is what pushes him and unlocks his potential to be more than just a hero.

You see, I don't think they're trying to make Jor-El out to be a totally wrongful horrible father, just a hard one.

In Byrne's version of superman, Jonathan had died and shortly after did Martha.

Masterful post :)

OutlawAngel

04-13-2006, 11:29 PM

Originally posted by bunkmania
99% of the time i would agree with you. I would say that most of the time parents think theyre doing the right thing for their kids when they really arent. But think this is the 1% of the time where the parent is right....

Ok So Jor El is right to force Clark to leave everyone he loves to tell him that he must rule the world. Burning a symbol onto his chest. Torment Jonathan till he is in poor health and near psychotic ( i.e Legacy) steal the life of a teenage girl and make her think she is from Krypton, keep her trapped in a cave for over a decade and then use Jonathan (poor guy really did know when to step in that darn cave) to get Clark and then keep himf or 3 months and brainwash him into a thoughtless Kryptonian droid and then he takes away Clark's powers and gets upset with Clark after Clark gets killed.

I just really am having a hard time trying to figure out what makes this Jor El good. And that is why I am hoping the Jor El we have known so far is actually Zod which to me would make sense and would be cool.

Originally posted by bunkmania
All in saying is that when you have a teenaged drama show containing superman, youre going to need an authority figure to shove clark in to being superman. Otherwise hed be in drama for eternity. Yes clark cares about individuals but the planet comes first.

It has been Jonathan and Martha who have been doing that for Clark on this show. Not Jor-El.

bunkmania

04-13-2006, 11:32 PM

Originally posted by OutlawAngel
Ok So Jor El is right to force Clark to leave everyone he loves to tell him that he must rule the world. Burning a symbol onto his chest. Torment Jonathan till he is in poor health and near psychotic ( i.e Legacy) steal the life of a teenage girl and make her think she is from Krypton, keep her trapped in a cave for over a decade and then use Jonathan (poor guy really did know when to step in that darn cave) to get Clark and then keep himf or 3 months and brainwash him into a thoughtless Kryptonian droid and then he takes away Clark's powers and gets upset with Clark after Clark gets killed.

I just really am having a hard time trying to figure out what makes this Jor El good. And that is why I am hoping the Jor El we have known so far is actually Zod which to me would make sense and would be cool.

Burning the symbol into his chest was a reminder that he is not human. He is special. Its a mark of krypton and his ancestors.

Clark left because he was still immature, and the symbol burned into his chest kept him in check.

I coulda sworn kara was dead....and jor-el kept her body and was speaking through her.....She wasnt even alive.

Jor el wanted clark to get the stones......before earth was annihilated by human activities by them. Jonathan kept telling clark not to go near then or jor-el, so jor-el did what he did.

j-kent

04-13-2006, 11:32 PM

Originally posted by bunkmania
Masterful post :)

Thanks man! :) It's good to know that some people recognize the diehard superman knowledge I try to provide with dedicated SV fans

bunkmania

04-13-2006, 11:33 PM

Originally posted by OutlawAngel
Ok So Jor El is right to force Clark to leave everyone he loves to tell him that he must rule the world. Burning a symbol onto his chest. Torment Jonathan till he is in poor health and near psychotic ( i.e Legacy) steal the life of a teenage girl and make her think she is from Krypton, keep her trapped in a cave for over a decade and then use Jonathan (poor guy really did know when to step in that darn cave) to get Clark and then keep himf or 3 months and brainwash him into a thoughtless Kryptonian droid and then he takes away Clark's powers and gets upset with Clark after Clark gets killed.

I just really am having a hard time trying to figure out what makes this Jor El good. And that is why I am hoping the Jor El we have known so far is actually Zod which to me would make sense and would be cool.

It has been Jonathan and Martha who have been doing that for Clark on this show. Not Jor-El.

Jonathan and martha have done that to an extent. They may talk of his destiny and how huge it is, but it is Jor-el that takes him to it.

He Who Lurks

04-13-2006, 11:34 PM

Hmmm... You're speculation about Jor-el's motivations is kinda interesting. Smacks of justification...

I'm well aware of how others have portrayed Jor-el. If the writers somehow have this Jor-el (the monster version) lead directly to Clark's re-invention as Superman (without a major personality overhaul on Jor-el's part), I will be sincerely disappointed. Superman wasn't bullied into his task by a tyrannical dead man.

OutlawAngel

04-13-2006, 11:37 PM

Ok I respect your opinnion but I am still hoping that the Jor El we have known so far really isnt Jor El or atleast next season his goodwill is made more clear by TPTB. Because at this point I cant see all the goodness in Jor El that he is portrayed to have in pretty much all other versions of the Superman story.

He Who Lurks

04-13-2006, 11:40 PM

Oh, I'm sorry. I really should learn to quote. I wasn't talking to you Outlaw Angel, I was talking to j-kent. Hence the similarity between the beginning of his condescending post and mine. :)

bunkmania

04-13-2006, 11:42 PM

Originally posted by OutlawAngel
Ok I respect your opinnion but I am still hoping that the Jor El we have known so far really isnt Jor El or atleast next season his goodwill is made more clear by TPTB. Because at this point I cant see all the goodness in Jor El that he is portrayed to have in pretty much all other versions of the Superman story.

Thats what im hoping for too. some clarification and some positive jor-el.

F-Stop Blues

04-14-2006, 12:08 AM

I think all of Jor-El's actions have been justified. He needed Clark to obtain the three stones since season 2 so thats why he went after him. Clark wasnt ready so JE waited until he was forced to take action, which he did in Covenant. Clark still was able to dodge him until the second meteor shower which oh by the way was Clark's fault due to his lack of action in finding the stones. Ok so after Clark makes the FOS JE warns him about the great danger and now Clark has to train. Clark doesnt return by Sundown so his powers get taken away. Jor-El knows that the world needs Clark so he returns his powers to him but in order to do so someone has to die. I dont JE wanted or planned on doing this, Clark just forced it. So Clark may hate him now but I think JE isnt bad at all, I think he loves Clark and he knows that Earth needs him.

Antithesis

04-14-2006, 12:40 AM

You know something just occurred to me. The only time I can remember ever seeing any caring in Jor-El was when he was inhabiting Lionel. Is it possilbe he needs to be in a human body to feel emotion? Maybe he's more or less a computer program that has a rough idea of what Jor-El's personality is, but it can't recreate the emotion unless it is in a human brain and can "feel" that way.

Anyway, I don't nesesarilly think Jor-El is completely evil just very overzealous. I can fully understand Clark hating him at this point.

F-Stop Blues

04-14-2006, 12:46 AM

I think Jor-El loves him but he knows that Braniac is around and that he wants to free ZOD. JE knows that Clark has to stop this but Clark has been busy being an idiot so JE had to take charge.

j-kent

04-14-2006, 01:03 AM

Originally posted by He Who Lurks
Hmmm... You're speculation about Jor-el's motivations is kinda interesting. Smacks of justification...

I'm well aware of how others have portrayed Jor-el. If the writers somehow have this Jor-el (the monster version) lead directly to Clark's re-invention as Superman (without a major personality overhaul on Jor-el's part), I will be sincerely disappointed. Superman wasn't bullied into his task by a tyrannical dead man.

Don't attempt to mock me. My justification is solid, hence the post being masterful. My post is to offer not only you more expandable knowledge if you did not have it, and for more so for other viewers. Your point is valid, but just worded to a slant, and makes it out pessimistically and harshly (such as concluding Jor-el should burn in hell) instead of seeing into abstract of what Jor-El POTENTIALLY could be in the future of SV in regards to the other more traditional mythos. Your points are still valid, but whatever you need to be hostile. I'm just saying quotes like above

Superman wasn't bullied into his task by a tyrannical dead man.

is bit of an aggressive speculation...

great points though maybe! remember my original post was to offer knowledge to the other side of speculation so :rolleyes:

bunkmania

04-14-2006, 01:08 AM

Originally posted by F-Stop Blues
I think Jor-El loves him but he knows that Braniac is around and that he wants to free ZOD. JE knows that Clark has to stop this but Clark has been busy being an idiot so JE had to take charge.

I knew there were sane people like you and j-kent :) show ur colors more

j-kent

04-14-2006, 01:13 AM

Originally posted by bunkmania
I knew there were sane people like you and j-kent :) show ur colors more

:D

F-Stop Blues

04-14-2006, 01:25 AM

Season 6 premiere: Jor-El vs. General Zod. I dont think people will see him as evil after that.

Kryptonian Snake

04-14-2006, 01:26 AM

I can completely understand Clark's disdain for Jor-El, considering the extreme measures he takes to get Clark's obedience. However, there is enough ambiguity surrounding Jor-El for Clark to start asking questions and getting clarification. For example, Jor-El has never repeated the message from the ship...EVER. He also warned Clark about the impending Kryptonian threat from Krypton in Arrival, which is an odd thing to do if Jor-El really wants Clark to conquer the planet, since the two Kryptonians had the same goal.

The fundamental problem in the Clark-Jor-El relationship has been the inability of either of them to communicate effectively. Jor-El simply demands things from Clark with little to no elaboration (Sacred is the exception), and Clark fails to press for answers. At this point Clark should be pressing for those answers.

j-kent

04-14-2006, 01:33 AM

Originally posted by bunkmania
Ok, when Clark was talking to the little girl Mattie, she asked him whether or not he met his real father. Clark responded "sorta.." She then asked him whether his father (Jor-EL) was "Mean like mine??".... and clark said

"maybe worse..... just because he gave me life doesnt mean im anything like him"

wtf??? Why does clark hate jor-el still? In arrival he welcomed him home, in hidden, he brough him back to life, in solitude, he learned zod was the evil one and Jor-el was the intelligent peaceful man of the people. I thought that his perception changed??? Maybe even slightly?? In reckoning, granted jonathans life was sacrificed, but he told clark it was a lesson he needed to learn in order to mature ....He saved lionel's life in vengeance partly because he knew his body was an oracle for kryptonian knowlegde for jor-el to inhabit if he ever needed him.

After this episode its still apparent he still hates jor-el.... but why?

Jor-el is vital to superman....i dont understand why Clark still bashes him regardless of prior seasons. After smallville jor-el is the one clark calls father and goes to for advice. When is the show going to make jor el a positive influence on his life?

In SV, Jor-EL is not the perfect Kryptonian Dad...sucks but SV is so shifty at it anyway.

If SV adheres to the traditional superman mythos, then we'll see a more confident grown-up Clark seek advice from his Kryptonian father in regards to Kryptonian matters. But right now it's Smallville, we have a young and irrational Clark on our hands here. He'll grow up and mend the differences....hopefully.

VNAF Ace

04-14-2006, 01:39 AM

TKFlash

04-14-2006, 02:01 AM

I agree with j-kent 100%. Clark has to understand that he is meant for greater things and their are sacrifices. Jor-El is wiser than Clark thus understanding that the world comes before what Clark wants.

Rack

04-14-2006, 03:23 AM

Originally posted by bunkmania
Burning the symbol into his chest was a reminder that he is not human. He is special. Its a mark of krypton and his ancestors.

Clark left because he was still immature, and the symbol burned into his chest kept him in check.

Clark didn't leave cuz he was immature. He blamed himself for what happened to his mother (and unborn son/daughter).

The symbol was burned into his chest while Clark was on Red K. Jor-El knew that Clark wouldn't be able to continue his "journey" while under the influence of Red K. He did what he had to do to get him to remove the ring (with the Red K). It worked.

Like it or not, it's irrelevant. Clark isn't human. You can't just send him to a corner and give him a time out. Jor-El did what he had to do (and what he could do being that he was/is freakin' DEAD) to get Clark back on his path.

Some of you must have lived some nice little childhoods with the way you criticize Jor-El. I had a stepfather beat my a** a lot worse then anything Jor-El did to Clark and, ummm, I don't have any superpowers.

Jor-El... Jonathan... they're both a big part of what makes CK into superman. Jor-El knew this from the beginning. Why do you think he sent Clark to the Kents? He WANTED Clark to learn what he's learned from the Kents. Jor-El is trying to teach him to take what he's learned and apply it to a much larger scale. Don't like his methods? Tough. There's only so much a guy can do when he's dead.

bunkmania

04-14-2006, 03:37 AM

i agree with you :). but the mark wasnt given to him while he was on red k. it definetly burned him while he was on red k, but it was given to him in the basement as a mark from his ancestors and a reminder that he wasnt human. he belonged to a different people.

Brian Peppers

04-14-2006, 06:37 AM

Yes. The "maybe worse..." comment just made me think "what the f*ck!".

Let's put past the brainwashing of Clark to get the stones and the ship with the misleading message.

Jor-El clearly said to Clark in the season finale, "you're quick emotional decisions put the planet in danger".

It's clearly Clark's "SELFISH" fault to not listen to Jor-El to go on a quest to get the three stones but rather take Red Kryptonite and head to Metropolis. The result was Lana getting the Stone and causing the release of Brianiac who is in a mission to free Zod and turn the planet into Zod-like world.

What also annoys me that Clark absorbed a fair bit of Kryptonian history in the FOS. If you look closely at the red translucent force field, you see footage from Superman 1 where Krypton is breaking apart. That stood out to me clearly! With that in mind, I cannot see how Clark would think Jor-El is a monster given the knowledge he had.

Kryptonian Snake

04-14-2006, 08:28 AM

Originally posted by Rack
Jor-El... Jonathan... they're both a big part of what makes CK into superman. Jor-El knew this from the beginning. Why do you think he sent Clark to the Kents? He WANTED Clark to learn what he's learned from the Kents. Jor-El is trying to teach him to take what he's learned and apply it to a much larger scale. Don't like his methods? Tough. There's only so much a guy can do when he's dead.
Imagine I have an 18-year-old son, and I want him to become an FBI agent. However, instead of telling him this directly, I demand that he move to Washington, D.C. (suppsose I live in D.C. and he lives in New York) and do whatever I say. My son, however, wants to make his own future, and refuses. To persuade him, I have my "people" kidnap him, burn a symbol on his chest, and tell him he has no choice but to obey me. My son runs away to New Jersey to get away from my "people", but they track him down and routinely jump him and irritate the scar, causing him immense pain. He eventually returns to his home in New York, but still refuses to obey me, so I send someone to break into his house while he's there and threaten his mother's life unless he succumbs to my will.

Arguably, being an FBI agent is a very demanding, important job. For a regular human being, it's similar to what Clark will eventually do when he dons the tights and protects Metropolis (and the planet) from threats more powerful than himself. Does that make the methods in my scenario justified? I emphatically say NO, it doesn't However, defending Jor-El's similar actions means you can't logically agree with that sentiment. Clark has no more moral obligation to put on a uniform and defend the planet than any human has an obligation to join the army, police force, FBI, or any other risky occupation in which death is just a gunshot away. At most, I think Clark simply has an obligation to use his powers the way he's been using them now, without necessarily taking on a dual identity to do so -- being a Good Smaritan, basically.

OutlawAngel

04-14-2006, 10:25 AM

Originally posted by Rack
Clark didn't leave cuz he was immature. He blamed himself for what happened to his mother (and unborn son/daughter).

The symbol was burned into his chest while Clark was on Red K. Jor-El knew that Clark wouldn't be able to continue his "journey" while under the influence of Red K. He did what he had to do to get him to remove the ring (with the Red K). It worked.

Like it or not, it's irrelevant. Clark isn't human. You can't just send him to a corner and give him a time out. Jor-El did what he had to do (and what he could do being that he was/is freakin' DEAD) to get Clark back on his path.

Some of you must have lived some nice little childhoods with the way you criticize Jor-El. I had a stepfather beat my a** a lot worse then anything Jor-El did to Clark and, ummm, I don't have any superpowers.

Jor-El... Jonathan... they're both a big part of what makes CK into superman. Jor-El knew this from the beginning. Why do you think he sent Clark to the Kents? He WANTED Clark to learn what he's learned from the Kents. Jor-El is trying to teach him to take what he's learned and apply it to a much larger scale. Don't like his methods? Tough. There's only so much a guy can do when he's dead.

Ok I mostly agree with you but Jor El burned the symbol into Clark's chest begore he was on the Red K. Why couldnt Jor El just been programed to say 'Hey son you need to go away for awhile to be trained how to protect the world from coming doom' the whole 'you were sent to take over the world' message from Rosetta might have putthe wrong idea in Clark's head which I think is quite understandable.

muffinpeddler

04-14-2006, 10:26 AM

And after he brought your "Girlfriend" back. Shame on you Clark, shame on you.

Rack

04-14-2006, 03:48 PM

Originally posted by Kryptonian Snake
Imagine I have an 18-year-old son, and I want him to become an FBI agent. However, instead of telling him this directly, I demand that he move to Washington, D.C. (suppsose I live in D.C. and he lives in New York) and do whatever I say. My son, however, wants to make his own future, and refuses. To persuade him, I have my "people" kidnap him, burn a symbol on his chest, and tell him he has no choice but to obey me. My son runs away to New Jersey to get away from my "people", but they track him down and routinely jump him and irritate the scar, causing him immense pain. He eventually returns to his home in New York, but still refuses to obey me, so I send someone to break into his house while he's there and threaten his mother's life unless he succumbs to my will.

Arguably, being an FBI agent is a very demanding, important job. For a regular human being, it's similar to what Clark will eventually do when he dons the tights and protects Metropolis (and the planet) from threats more powerful than himself. Does that make the methods in my scenario justified? I emphatically say NO, it doesn't However, defending Jor-El's similar actions means you can't logically agree with that sentiment. Clark has no more moral obligation to put on a uniform and defend the planet than any human has an obligation to join the army, police force, FBI, or any other risky occupation in which death is just a gunshot away. At most, I think Clark simply has an obligation to use his powers the way he's been using them now, without necessarily taking on a dual identity to do so -- being a Good Smaritan, basically.

I stopped reading when I got to the burning a symbol in your son's chest part.

Again, Clark isn't human. Different measures would have to be taken to put a SUPER human on his path.

Let's say your son was superhuman. And the fate of the world depended on him being an FBI agent (:rolleyes: ). You telling me you wouldn't do what it takes to get him on his "Path"? Of course you probably wouldn't have to be as drastic as Jor-El, but then again, as far as I can tell, you're ALIVE and well. I'd assume if you were dead and had to get your SUPERhuman son on his path you'd have to do what you can do with what you have available to you.

You're comparing a real HUMAN life situation with that of an unreal life situation. Apple, meet orange.

Ok I mostly agree with you but Jor El burned the symbol into Clark's chest begore he was on the Red K

Yeah, sorry about that. Got my stuff mixed up. My memory isn't what it used to be. :D

But it still fits. Jor-El isn't alive and well so it's not like he can pull off his belt and spank his son. Plus, when dealing with superman a simple slap on the wrist isn't going to do much. The dead Jor-El did what he had to do with the only means he had to do it with.

I'm not saying it's a good thing. I'm saying it's the only thing he could do.

Just to re-iterate, I'm sure Jor-El would handle things differently if he were alive.

bunkmania

04-14-2006, 04:27 PM

Kryptonian Snake

04-14-2006, 05:39 PM

Originally posted by Rack
Again, Clark isn't human. Different measures would have to be taken to put a SUPER human on his path.

Let's say your son was superhuman. And the fate of the world depended on him being an FBI agent (:rolleyes: ). You telling me you wouldn't do what it takes to get him on his "Path"? Of course you probably wouldn't have to be as drastic as Jor-El, but then again, as far as I can tell, you're ALIVE and well. I'd assume if you were dead and had to get your SUPERhuman son on his path you'd have to do what you can do with what you have available to you.

You're comparing a real HUMAN life situation with that of an unreal life situation. Apple, meet orange.
The problem is that Jor-El didn't initially tell Clark that he needed to save the world. He didn't mention the stones and the danger of letting them fall into the hands of a human. Only in season 4 can I let Jor-El off the hook, because then he explicitly told Clark about the consequences of ignoring his Kryptonian heritage. Before that, though, Jor-El simply demanded that Clark obey him, and as far as Clark knew, his destiny was to rule the planet. Why should he have listened and abandoned his home and loved ones? Blindly following orders without any explanation would have been foolish, and I can't blame Clark for being resistant. (Note: I'm not condoning his destruction of the ship and self-imposed exile. Both actions were reckless and ended up hurting others.)

Also, we've never been told that Clark's biology makes him fundamentally different from humans psychologically. In fact, we've been shown the opposite. Much like Lex, Clark resists a father who tries to force him down a specific path in life, and has faced huge consequences because of this. Lex got his brain fried and was almost killed. Clark has lost an unborn sibling and inadvertantly played a role in his father's heart problems and death. Much like Lex, Clark felt alienated while growing up. For Lex, it was due to his wealth and baldness. For Clark, it was his powers and then the knowledge that he's the only Kryptonian on the planet that made him feel cut off from everyone else. I think the point of this is to show that Clark shares much more in common with humans than he might think.

bunkmania

04-14-2006, 05:47 PM

Originally posted by Kryptonian Snake
The problem is that Jor-El didn't initially tell Clark that he needed to save the world. He didn't mention the stones and the danger of letting them fall into the hands of a human. Only in season 4 can I let Jor-El off the hook, because then he explicitly told Clark about the consequences of ignoring his Kryptonian heritage. Before that, though, Jor-El simply demanded that Clark obey him, and as far as Clark knew, his destiny was to rule the planet. Why should he have listened and abandoned his home and loved ones? Blindly following orders without any explanation would have been foolish, and I can't blame Clark for being resistant. (Note: I'm not condoning his destruction of the ship and self-imposed exile. Both actions were reckless and ended up hurting others.)

Also, we've never been told that Clark's biology makes him fundamentally different from humans psychologically. In fact, we've been shown the opposite. Much like Lex, Clark resists a father who tries to force him down a specific path in life, and has faced huge consequences because of this. Lex got his brain fried and was almost killed. Clark has lost an unborn sibling and inadvertantly played a role in his father's heart problems and death. Much like Lex, Clark felt alienated while growing up. For Lex, it was due to his wealth and baldness. For Clark, it was his powers and then the knowledge that he's the only Kryptonian on the planet that made him feel cut off from everyone else. I think the point of this is to show that Clark shares much more in common with humans than he might think.

You dodged the question. Why does clark still hate jor el? In your opinion you say after season 4 you can let jor el off the hook and i can agree with you even though i believe hes been justified from season 1. But why now into the 5th season does clark think hes still evil?

Kryptonian Snake

04-14-2006, 05:51 PM

Originally posted by bunkmania
You dodged the question. Why does clark still hate jor el? In your opinion you say after season 4 you can let jor el off the hook and i can agree with you even though i believe hes been justified from season 1. But why now into the 5th season does clark think hes still evil?
In my earlier post I stated that Clark should be asking questions because Jor-El's actions and demeanor have been inconsistent. However, Clark is in no way obligated to develop warm feelings towards Jor-El. If someone strangled my father in front of my eyes and then turned me into a cold automaton, I highly doubt I'd have a close personal relationship with that person or hold him or her in a high regard. At this point, interacting with Jor-El is a necessary evil, but that interaction can strictly be for training and doesn't require affection from Clark. Jor-El is kind of a necessary evil for Clark's progression.

EDIT: Also, the argument that Jor-El is limited because he's dead is silly to me. Jor-El has: contacted Clark telepathically ("Exodus")
contacted Jonathan by using the key ("Legacy")
burned a scar on Clark's chest ("Exodus")
used a dead girl as a puppet ("Covenant")
allowed Clark to travel back in time ("Reckoning")
sucked Clark into another dimension and "reprogramed" him ("Covenant"/"Crusade")
inhabited Lionel's body after it was activated by one of the stones ("Hidden")
I'd say all that makes him pretty powerful and gives him plenty of options to nag Clark into fulfilling his "destiny".

watcher4

04-14-2006, 07:49 PM

Originally posted by MBCorp
...Jonathan should be the only one that he thinks of as a father.

AMEN!!

Originally posted by He Who Lurks
Jor-el seems to have absolutely no interest in getting Clark to help people. That's all Jonathon.

Agreed!!

****************

Jor-El may be dealing with a Kryptonian. However, this particular Kryptonian was raised on Earth!

Kryptonian Snake

04-14-2006, 08:03 PM

After reading it, I think the edit to my last post is a little hypocritical of me. I should have simply listed Jor-El's telepathic communications with Clark and Jonathan. If Jor-El really wanted to drive home the importance of Clark's mission on earth, he probably could have explained things in detail and/or nagged him to death so Clark could understand the full gravity of his purpose on Earth. This could have easily been done upon first revealing himself to Clark. Instead, Jor-El demands Clark blindly follow orders and abandon his loved ones or else he'd hurt them. It's unreasonable to expect Clark to obey without any real explanation and such a vague warning. It also makes little sense considering Jor-El claimed to know Clark's thoughts.

bunkmania

04-14-2006, 09:01 PM

Opinions are made to be respected, so i will not argue any further. hopefully readers of this thread can read posts from myself, jkent and f blues as well as yours and develop some kind of middle ground.

It was said that in this very season, clark will learn about his destiny, he will learn about krypton and he will advance in becoming superman. With that said i expect at least 1 more episode with clark back at the fortress of solitude with jor-el before the season finale. And in that episode, things will probably be cleared up for everyone.

All about Clark

04-15-2006, 12:00 AM

Originally posted by Kryptonian Snake
I can completely understand Clark's disdain for Jor-El, considering the extreme measures he takes to get Clark's obedience. However, there is enough ambiguity surrounding Jor-El for Clark to start asking questions and getting clarification. For example, Jor-El has never repeated the message from the ship...EVER. He also warned Clark about the impending Kryptonian threat from Krypton in Arrival, which is an odd thing to do if Jor-El really wants Clark to conquer the planet, since the two Kryptonians had the same goal.

The fundamental problem in the Clark-Jor-El relationship has been the inability of either of them to communicate effectively. Jor-El simply demands things from Clark with little to no elaboration (Sacred is the exception), and Clark fails to press for answers. At this point Clark should be pressing for those answers.

I agree that Clark has reason to not like Jor-el. I find it hard to believe that Jor-el would put up with this stuff if it was he instead of Clark experiencing it. He tries to force obedience only to backslide every time he does it, and I can't imagine Jor-el acting any different.

I also don't like seeing Clark blamed for his actions, such as leaving Smallville to protect his family from harm from Jor-el. Clark protecting his family have led to the heart condition and Jonathan dying.

It was only in Arrival where you thought Jor-el was the good guy trying to teach his son, only to take his powers, have him die, and have to forfeit a loved one. He clearly does not know how to reach Clark. And even to say it was all for the greater good shouldn't change how Clark feels now. But only when Jor-el truthfully lays it all out will he get Clark to understand. I do think Clark will turn to him eventually, but Jor-el has clearly gone about everything the wrong way.

WangTang

04-15-2006, 12:16 AM

i have to admit, in all the other superman world Jor-el was a dead kryptonian scientist who saved his sons life. Smallville Jor-el has god-like powers and an uneven way to use them. I will not mention the "time crystal" as im sure it is perhaps the most ludacris thing to come out of smallville. I will say this again, Jonathan Kent was and always be Clarks "real father". Jor-el or whatever that A.I. is could be Clarks mentor.

why doesn't jor-el just save the owrld himself? He can do just about everything else.

All about Clark

04-15-2006, 12:20 AM

^Well, Jor-el did leave the mess behind, didn't he?

The only good we know about Jor-el is that he wants his son to live.

bunkmania

04-15-2006, 01:27 AM

Originally posted by All about Clark
I agree that Clark has reason to not like Jor-el. I find it hard to believe that Jor-el would put up with this stuff if it was he instead of Clark experiencing it. He tries to force obedience only to backslide every time he does it, and I can't imagine Jor-el acting any different.

I also don't like seeing Clark blamed for his actions, such as leaving Smallville to protect his family from harm from Jor-el. Clark protecting his family have led to the heart condition and Jonathan dying.

It was only in Arrival where you thought Jor-el was the good guy trying to teach his son, only to take his powers, have him die, and have to forfeit a loved one. He clearly does not know how to reach Clark. And even to say it was all for the greater good shouldn't change how Clark feels now. But only when Jor-el truthfully lays it all out will he get Clark to understand. I do think Clark will turn to him eventually, but Jor-el has clearly gone about everything the wrong way.

I respect and reject your opinion.

LuckyKrypto

04-15-2006, 09:47 AM

Originally posted by bunkmania

It was said that in this very season, clark will learn about his destiny, he will learn about krypton and he will advance in becoming superman. With that said i expect at least 1 more episode with clark back at the fortress of solitude with jor-el before the season finale. And in that episode, things will probably be cleared up for everyone.

I am expecting a few episodes to help clear a lot of this up.;)

I think it's true that in some things Jor-El has maybe come across as very hard on Clark. But I also think we don't have all the facts yet about Jor-El. Since they introduced Brainac and Zod I have had my suspicions that all is not what it seems~ I truly can't believe that Smallville is going to make Jor-El evil.

Superboy2

04-15-2006, 10:07 AM

I guess it's been said that this is the only incarnation that Jor-El is portrayed as evil. In S4, Clark thought Jor-El was testing him, and know he thinks he might be worse than Maddie's father? Jor-El let him save Chloe, but Clark didn't come home on curfew, and lost his powers. Clark could have gone back, maybe or maybe not.

Theshadow129x

04-15-2006, 12:59 PM

I'm sick of everyone saying that Jor-el allowed his son to die in Hidden. It doesnt mean that he is an evil being. Jor-el taking his son's powers was away of punishment to Clark. Yes, Clark wants to be human/normal, however by him being human did he see that he risked not being able to help people when they needed help the most. With his powers is he a true help to the poeple that arent just close to him but everyone else.

Not to mention the fact that Clark is hardheaded. I mean that. In the first four seasons, Clark did exactly what he wasnt supposed to do even when he wasnt on red k. Clark never thinks in the long run about his actions, he thinks that if he does one thing wrong then it can be solved by saying sorry, and moping. There werent true consequences to his decisions. This season his desicions have gotten him in trouble. even cost someone close to him their life. I dont blame Jorel for taking the means to making Clark see his destiny. Clark never listened to his parents nor will he listen to his father. JOr-el is just trying to get Clark in path of being a superhero, and will do what ever means to make him grasp his kryptonian heritage. You cant make an omlette without cracking a few eggs.

LastFatherOfKrypton

04-15-2006, 01:09 PM

Originally posted by bunkmania
Ok, when Clark was talking to the little girl Mattie, she asked him whether or not he met his real father. Clark responded "sorta.." She then asked him whether his father (Jor-EL) was "Mean like mine??".... and clark said

"maybe worse..... just because he gave me life doesnt mean im anything like him"

wtf??? Why does clark hate jor-el still? In arrival he welcomed him home, in hidden, he brough him back to life, in solitude, he learned zod was the evil one and Jor-el was the intelligent peaceful man of the people. I thought that his perception changed??? Maybe even slightly?? In reckoning, granted jonathans life was sacrificed, but he told clark it was a lesson he needed to learn in order to mature ....He saved lionel's life in vengeance partly because he knew his body was an oracle for kryptonian knowlegde for jor-el to inhabit if he ever needed him.

After this episode its still apparent he still hates jor-el.... but why?

Jor-el is vital to superman....i dont understand why Clark still bashes him regardless of prior seasons. After smallville jor-el is the one clark calls father and goes to for advice. When is the show going to make jor el a positive influence on his life?

Still one must see Clark's/Kal-El's words...particularly the word MAYBE which he used....not a word describing permenant intent! But an "uncertain Possibility"!

In this version Jor-El has a bit more sterner hand than what all are used to, but nevertheless Jor-El guidence is important to Kal-El if he is to fully assume his mantle as the Earth's guardian!

WangTang

04-15-2006, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by LastFatherOfKrypton
Still one must see Clark's/Kal-El's words...particularly the word MAYBE which he used....not a word describing permenant intent! But an "uncertain Possibility"!

In this version Jor-El has a bit more sterner hand than what all are used to, but nevertheless Jor-El guidence is important to Kal-El if he is to fully assume his mantle as the Earth's guardian!

I have to disagree with you, the comic book superman became superman because he wanted to help people. Lois and Clarks superman became Superman because he wanted to help people. The truth is non of these versions ever needed Jor-el [who was dead] to help them. Clark made the decision because he is a good person, and was taught to use his powers to help people. This is what has always made superman a hero, he makes the choice on his own and does it own his own.

Thats what has always made Smallvilles, and the old Movies version of superman inferior to the other incarnations.

son2380

04-15-2006, 01:47 PM

This isn't really Jo-rel its a computer projection of the logical knowledge of the Kryptonian race/culture. This Jo-rel has the personality of the Earadicator.

When Jo-rel came to earth in the 50's and started dating Lana's aunt, we know that Clark and the Young Jo-rel had the same personality. The reason why Jor-el's father sent him to earth is so that he could Mature and learn about life. And see it from a larger scale other than the one dimensinal view he had. The jo-rel that is being portrayed in the FOS is not what Jo-rel was really like on Krypton.

We all know Jo-rel tried to save the planet before it exploded. Because he saw life from a larger scale other than what was happening right in front of him. Right now clark only view on life is whats happening now in Smalleville and he could care less about what happening on the other side of the planet. Jor-el wants him to start thinking about the entire planet and not the one area he is in.

Jor-el is actually a hero, but he failed because he couldn't save his planet or the people on the planet. He wants his son to succeed in saving the earth because he failed in saving Krypton.

Stil I beleive the Jorel in the FOS is actually the Eradicator.

Originally posted by Theshadow129x
Well the Jor-el from the moves and comics wasnt so.....agressive with his son. This one is like...evil to the highest degree. He killed Kara, almost told clark to let chloe die, strangled johnathan, and killed him. this Jor-el is doing horrible things to get his point across. I dont blame clark for seeing him as a Basterd. all of this stuff that he puts clark through isnt required to make someone a hero.

First of all Jor-el did not kill Jonathan, it was the checks and balances of the Universe. How can a dead man Kill another man? Clark who allowed himself to become mortal died, he was suppose to die that day and never come back. The computer similation that is Jor-el because of profound wisdom and knowledge realized a large group of people were going to die because of some Idiot launching a Nuke at Smalleville. He new that the only person that could save the people was his son, so he asked the Universe for a favor. Which allowed his son to come back. The Universe said that in order to change history and bring someone back to life that died someone has to die in his place. So Jor-el agreed to do so. He sacrificed 1 life for a 1000 lives, from a computer software point of view this was the most logical way to go.

From a human point of view this was cruel. If clark is ever in a situation like this, he will need both Kryptonian logic and human emotion to work together so that 1 person should never die for a 1000. The real superman would save everyone, without sacrificing others.

MBCorp

04-15-2006, 02:08 PM

If SV's version of Jor-El really turns out to be Jor-El then I will be disappointed. There's no way he can be redeemed at this point, not after all that he's done and what he's put Clark through. There's really not much difference between Jor-El and Lionel in their approach to their son's.

Kryptonian Snake

04-15-2006, 02:22 PM

Originally posted by MBCorp
If SV's version of Jor-El really turns out to be Jor-El then I will be disappointed. There's no way he can be redeemed at this point, not after all that he's done and what he's put Clark through. There's really not much difference between Jor-El and Lionel in their approach to their son's.
I kind of agree with you. At the very least, if it really is Jor-El, I'd like to see him have a different idea of how Clark should go about protecting the globe. Maybe he feels Clark should essentially abandon his human emotions and become a mindless automaton who protects people just because, similar to Kal-El's demeanor in Crusade. At least then we'd see Clark make a choice on his own to hold onto his emotional ties to his loved ones but still be able to make some sacrifices for the benefit of the world.

bunkmania

04-15-2006, 03:58 PM

MBCorp

04-15-2006, 04:10 PM

Originally posted by bunkmania
I dont understand why you are so narrow minded.

Narrow minded? Why? Just because I don't try to fanwank Jor-El's bipolar personality and crazy demands into something more approaching the Jor-El of the comics/movies?

Timester

04-15-2006, 04:29 PM

In Smallville, Jor-El is a bastard and Clark a BDA. That's all the point of "Fragile", the sons becoming like the fathers. TPTB finally assumes that Jor-El is not a good guy on the fight scene between Maddie and her father. We are finally getting that Clark was sent to Earth to rule them, to be the shepard of the human race, which are considered like little kids that still have much to learn. Unfortunally, Clark was raised by the Kents.

This remember me the "Elseworld" of where the the Kryptonians invade Earth and Jor-El was their leader and Kal-El, raised Jor-El's servants, the Kents, became Superman thanks to what the Kents teached him and defeated his father.

And, oh, "Superman Red Son" shows perfectly what can happen if Clark becomes like SV! Jor-El. A must read to everyone.

Pal-El

04-15-2006, 04:33 PM

Originally posted by Timester
In Smallville, Jor-El is a bastard and Clark a BDA. That's all the point of "Fragile", the sons becoming like the fathers. TPTB finally assumes that Jor-El is not a good guy on the fight scene between Maddie and her father. We are finally getting that Clark was sent to Earth to rule them, to be the shepard of the human race, which are considered like little kids that still have much to learn. Unfortunally, Clark was raised by the Kents.

This remember me the "Elseworld" of where the the Kryptonians invade Earth and Jor-El was their leader and Kal-El, raised Jor-El's servants, the Kents, became Superman thanks to what the Kents teached him and defeated his father.

And, oh, "Superman Red Son" shows perfectly what can happen if Clark becomes like SV! Jor-El. A must read to everyone.

Nah Im not buying that, the jor-el from SV will be explained at some point and Clark will realise his father is the one to trust. They have left it too long (3 seasons) and thats why there is the speculation, but thats all it is;)

Timester

04-15-2006, 04:38 PM

Originally posted by pal-el
Nah Im not buying that, the jor-el from SV will be explained at some point and Clark will realise his father is the one to trust. They have left it too long (3 seasons) and thats why there is the speculation, but thats all it is;)

That would be true IF Jor-El had anything to do with this Clark becoming Superman. No, Clark will become Superman thanks to the Kents, no one else.

And all the show has been about the sons becoming like the fathers. That was the underlying plot of season 3 (Clark and Lex fighting their fathers) and now remembered again with "Fragile". The difference between Clark and Lex are the Kents.

MBCorp

04-15-2006, 04:41 PM

Originally posted by Timester
In Smallville, Jor-El is a bastard and Clark a BDA. That's all the point of "Fragile", the sons becoming like the fathers. TPTB finally assumes that Jor-El is not a good guy on the fight scene between Maddie and her father. We are finally getting that Clark was sent to Earth to rule them, to be the shepard of the human race, which are considered like little kids that still have much to learn. Unfortunally, Clark was raised by the Kents.

This remember me the "Elseworld" of where the the Kryptonians invade Earth and Jor-El was their leader and Kal-El, raised Jor-El's servants, the Kents, became Superman thanks to what the Kents teached him and defeated his father.

And, oh, "Superman Red Son" shows perfectly what can happen if Clark becomes like SV! Jor-El. A must read to everyone.

I agree Timester, that was the whole point of that scene with Maddie and her father. It was showing that you don't have to become like your father and it was mirroring Jor-El/Clark.

Jor-El wants Clark to rule the earth with a iron fist but the Kent's influence on Clark has made sure that will never happen. Jor-El has a great destiny planned out for Clark, but it's not necessarily the same destiny that Clark ends up choosing. This is just a different take on Jor-El, people are going to have to learn to accept that.

Pal-El

04-15-2006, 04:42 PM

No I still disagree, Clark will find out that he has his father wrong this season.

And everyone else will be eating humble pie.

LastFatherOfKrypton

04-15-2006, 04:44 PM

When all said and done, Clark/Kal-El will know of at some point, Kryptonian ways and culture as he knows by experience the Human side of Mankind.

When coupled together with his human sense of right and wrong and justice, and those qualities as instilled by Jonathan and Martha Kent in his upbringing, then he will be fully prepared Human wise AND Kryptonian wise to aid in Mankinds rise to greatness.

Pal-El

04-15-2006, 04:48 PM

Originally posted by MBCorp

Jor-El wants Clark to rule the earth with a iron fist but the Kent's influence on Clark has made sure that will never happen. Jor-El has a great destiny planned out for Clark,

No he doesnt, and I think this theory will be disproved before this season ends

Timester

04-15-2006, 04:49 PM

Originally posted by LastFatherOfKrypton
When all said and done, Clark/Kal-El will know of at some point, Kryptonian ways and culture as he knows by experience the Human side of Mankind.

When coupled together with his human sense of right and wrong and justice, and those qualities as instilled by Jonathan and Martha Kent in his upbringing, then he will be fully prepared Human wise AND Kryptonian wise to aid in Mankinds rise to greatness.

Post-Crisis, Clark Kent became Superman even before he knew about Krypton. That's what AlMiles are following, Krypton has nothing to do with him becoming Superman. All the ideals behind Superman are human.

Pal-El

04-15-2006, 04:51 PM

I think all the SV ideals about Clark will somehow be the same as the movie ideals, its just the smallville writers are taking a different route.

LastFatherOfKrypton

04-15-2006, 04:53 PM

Originally posted by Timester
Post-Crisis, Clark Kent became Superman even before he knew about Krypton. That's what AlMiles are following, Krypton has nothing to do with him becoming Superman. All the ideals behind Superman are human.

I am referring to the movie version not the comics as they no doubt are seen as "The Holy Grail" Superman Lore.

When you look at it Superman is Sci-Fi mythos created by Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster.....but you already knew that.

Yes, the "majority" go by the Comics as The Canon never to be refuted. But I speak only to certain versions and my own interpretations/beliefs....which all are entitled to.

Timester

04-15-2006, 04:56 PM

Originally posted by pal-el
No he doesnt, and I think this theory will be disproved before this season ends

What theory? It's the facts. Ruling Earth != Absolute Evil. That's the misconception that everyone has about Jor-El's message. Being bastard doesn't mean that he is evil.

Again, "Superman Red Son".

Originally posted by LastFatherOfKrypton
I am referring to the movie version not the comics as they no doubt are seen as "The Holy Grail" Superman Lore.

When you look at it Superman is Sci-Fi mythos created by Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster.....but you already knew that.

Yes, the "majority" go by the Comics as The Canon never to be refuted. But I speak only to certain versions and my own interpretations/beliefs....which all are entitled to.

But we are talking about AlMiles interpretation here. And they are more closer to the Post-Crisis than the movies Jor-El.

Pal-El

04-15-2006, 05:02 PM

Originally posted by Timester
What theory? It's the facts. Ruling Earth != Absolute Evil. That's the misconception that everyone has about Jor-El's message. Being bastard doesn't mean that he is evil.

That theory. I believe that Jor-el (in SV) pushed Clark in that direction to purposely frighten him, never once meaning that his wishes were for kal-el to rule the Earth, but merely to push him to his destiny. Kind of like reverse pshycology

MBCorp

04-15-2006, 05:08 PM

Originally posted by pal-el
That theory. I believe that Jor-el (in SV) pushed Clark in that direction to purposely frighten him, never once meaning that his wishes were for kal-el to rule the Earth, but merely to push him to his destiny. Kind of like reverse pshycology

I've heard that type of speculation before and I don't buy it. Why did he think he'd have to resort to reverse psychology to get Clark to accept his destiny? It makes no sense. If it is reverse psychology then it sure as heck hasn't worked any. The only thing that it's done is to turn Clark against Jor-El and to make him suspicious of him.

Timester

04-15-2006, 05:09 PM

Originally posted by pal-el
That theory. I believe that Jor-el (in SV) pushed Clark in that direction to purposely frighten him, never once meaning that his wishes were for kal-el to rule the Earth, but merely to push him to his destiny. Kind of like reverse pshycology

Until he killed a girl, hurt his dad, mindcontrolled him. And his destiny IT IS rule the Earth, that's what Superman is all about. But that's not the kind of idea of rulling Jor-El has. Jor-El tried to do the exact same thing in the comics, mindcontrolling Clark to become a pure Kryptonian, a non-emotional being. Jonathan stopped that.

Even more, AlMiles try to show us all over the show that Smallville about the fathers becoming the sons. We just need to read between the lines.

Pal-El

04-15-2006, 05:12 PM

Originally posted by MBCorp
I've heard that type of speculation before and I don't buy it. Why did he think he'd have to resort to reverse psychology to get Clark to accept his destiny? It makes no sense. If it is reverse psychology then it sure as heck hasn't worked any. The only thing that it's done is to turn Clark against Jor-El and to make him suspicious of him.

I agree it hasnt worked at all, even in fragile we have seen that clark still doesnt understand his birth father, but its obvious to me that Jor-el is the good guy and Clark just hasnt realised it yet

Originally posted by Timester

Even more, AlMiles try to show us all over the show that Smallville about the fathers becoming the sons. We just need to read between the lines.

Thats all Im doing. Smallville wouldnt stray too far from the movies because the majority dont or havent read the comics,. That is why I think that the SV version of Jor-el has been written this on purpose to throw the viewwers.

Timester

04-15-2006, 05:13 PM

LastFatherOfKrypton

04-15-2006, 05:15 PM

Originally posted by Timester
But we are talking about AlMiles interpretation here. And they are more closer to the Post-Crisis than the movies Jor-El.

Curious, how exactly is your take on Jor-El in Donner's Superman movie with late Christopher Reeve??

Good....Bad....Inaccurate....Accurate??:confused:

Pal-El

04-15-2006, 05:15 PM

Originally posted by Timester
Exactly. We are in season 5 (3 years past "Rosetta") and the only thing that changed was Clark is even more suspicious than before. For him, anything that comes from Krypton is not good (his powers, Kryptonite, Jor-El, Brainiac, Zod).

Clark hasnt had any reason to change his opinion, as far as he's concerned kryptonians are evil because they havent shown him any different

MBCorp

04-15-2006, 05:18 PM

Originally posted by Timester
Until he killed a girl, hurt his dad, mindcontrolled him.

I don't know how people can excuse that. We've seen Jor-El kill someone. We've seen him hurt Jonathan. We've seen him play mind games and intimidation tactics on Clark. We've seen him basically brainwash Clark into being a souless, emotionless robot. And all of this is supposed to be good just because it's in the name of Clark accepting his destiny? That the ends justify the means? I just don't understand that.

Timester

04-15-2006, 05:20 PM

Originally posted by pal-el
I agree it hasnt worked at all, even in fragile we have seen that clark still doesnt understand his birth father, but its obvious to me that Jor-el is the good guy and Clark just hasnt realised it yet

Thats all Im doing.

That's about knowing AlMiles, how do they think. These guys are the ones that think (and said) "Lets have Clark smashing that guy with a tree because it's cool" or "The only thing that Clark wants is laid". Basically, they don't have a supreme masterplan that we surprise everyone. They are like "what you see is what you get".

Really, knowing AlMiles truly helps to understand what they are doing (that's how some of us knew about the FOS even before season 4 began, knew about the time travel, among several other things).

Originally posted by pal-el
Clark hasnt had any reason to change his opinion, as far as he's concerned kryptonians are evil because they havent shown him any different

Because they aren't supposed to show. Krypton to Clark is what Luthors is to Lex. The differance is Clark had the Kents.

Pal-El

04-15-2006, 05:21 PM

Still, whether you agree with it or not, thats the way I think Al/Miles are taking the series

LastFatherOfKrypton

04-15-2006, 06:31 PM

True this is Al/Miles version of how things should go with the Clark/Jor-El interactions!

Pal-El

04-15-2006, 06:44 PM

I think Timester thinks TPTB are going down the comic route of what Jor-el is, but I think he is mistaken...

Summers

04-15-2006, 06:54 PM

Timester is right about Jor-El. Plus AlMiles and their writing staff would have to be stupid to portray Jor-El good at the end of series on the account vast majority would not buy it. Like MBCorp said the end doesn't justify the means. That type of logic was used with Jor-El's character in the comics, and with Lex Luthor. It would be very OOC for SV Jor-El to be portrayed as good at the end.

j-kent

04-15-2006, 07:26 PM

Originally posted by MBCorp
Narrow minded? Why? Just because I don't try to fanwank Jor-El's bipolar personality and crazy demands into something more approaching the Jor-El of the comics/movies?

If you read what we had said in our posts and about the potential of Jor-El then you wouldn't have such as slant on him.

You're superficial and not looking at the underlying reasons to why they probably made Jor-El the way they did. Instead, it comes out like this for you: "Jor-El is pure evil, and should've never been brought into Clark's life." ....pretty much?

Not saying believe me on how Jor-El really is...but I'm just saying wait it out a little bit before having such a pessimistic speculation on him.

OutlawAngel

04-15-2006, 07:42 PM

Originally posted by pal-el
Nah Im not buying that, the jor-el from SV will be explained at some point and Clark will realise his father is the one to trust. They have left it too long (3 seasons) and thats why there is the speculation, but thats all it is;)

If this Jor El really is the real Jor El then that will be more unbelievable that Lionel being turned into a good guy that everyone and their mother *coughmarthacough* love.

They can not have Jor El be a total B****** for 5 years and then Clark one day say 'Oh hey look Jor El is my father so I will love him and do what he says' uhm no....not believable. or atleast not believable to anyone who has never watched the movies or read a comic.

Timester

04-15-2006, 07:47 PM

Originally posted by j-kent
If you read what we had said in our posts and about the potential of Jor-El then you wouldn't have such as slant on him.

You're superficial and not looking at the underlying reasons to why they probably made Jor-El the way they did. Instead, it comes out like this for you: "Jor-El is pure evil, and should've never been brought into Clark's life." ....pretty much?

Not saying believe me on how Jor-El really is...but I'm just saying wait it out a little bit before having such a pessimistic speculation on him.

I can't talk for MBCorp, but nowhere I saw her telling that Jor-El is pure evil. He simply isn't a saint that will lead Kal-El to greatness. It's all about shades of grey.

Originally posted by OutlawAngel
If this Jor El really is the real Jor El then that will be more unbelievable that Lionel being turned into a good guy that everyone and their mother *coughmarthacough* love.

They can not have Jor El be a total B****** for 5 years and then Clark one day say 'Oh hey look Jor El is my father so I will love him and do what he says' uhm no....not believable. or atleast not believable to anyone who has never watched the movies or read a comic.

It's just bad writing, it's like Jason and Lex becoming evil just like that... Oh, wait... :\

OutlawAngel

04-15-2006, 07:57 PM

Originally posted by bunkmania
I dont understand why you are so narrow minded.

I dont understand why this Jor El right now has to turn out to being good? Why just because the comic books and movies and The New Adventures of Superman says he has to be? When has Smallville really ever followed all of cannon? Like Lois being a mufin pedaler or Clark's parents being hot or everyone and their cousin knows Clark's secret? Or Clark being a BDA.

Originally posted by pal-el
No I still disagree, Clark will find out that he has his father wrong this season.

And everyone else will be eating humble pie.

I will be to busy gagging to eat pie. I am not like Clark. I dont like pie all that much. Espechally humble. I like strawberry pie. yumm pie. But lemon pie I hate its t sticky and crumbly. nope if I were to eat pie it would be some kind of berry pie. How does humble pie taste anyway> I would think it taste like lemons.

mcgairman

04-15-2006, 08:22 PM

Coyote

04-15-2006, 08:40 PM

There is no way that the thing from the caves that calls itself Jor-El is what turns Clark into Superman. It's a cold, emotionless, ruthless alien entity that has no regard for human beings as individuals, and no understanding of human compassion. It does want Clark to defend the human race as a whole, but only so that he can rule over them and remake the planet into a new Krypton.

There is nothing wrong with portraying Jor-El this way. It's very plausible that an advanced alien race would think like that. They would realistically have no real reason to want to help humans simply for the sake of helping us. Why would they? We would be like ants under their feet. But that attitude is very far from what Superman is all about.

The Kents turned Clark into Superman, not Jor-El.

Timestar's point about the parallel between the Lionel-Lex relationship and the Clark-Jor-El relationship is accurate. That's obviously what they've been doing, and it would be hopelessly lame to excuse all of the computer thing's behavior and have it turn out to be a "nice guy after all" at this point.

It is possible that the thing from the caves isn't Jor-El. It's behavior is different from the young Jor-El we saw in Relic. But there's no real reason Jor-El or any of the Kryptonians have to turn out to be good. It doesn't really matter. Smallville's Clark will become Superman in spite of his heritage, not because of it.

All about Clark

04-15-2006, 09:49 PM

I agree with Coyote on many points, but I'm still hoping that Jor-el will partially redeem himself with the Braniac battle/finale.

I'm hoping that Jor-el is good despite all the crap he's put Clark through. Jor-el does want his son to live and I also think Jor-el wants Earth to continue without evil Kryptonians bringing harm to it. If Jor-el can give up on his notions of what he expects Clark to be for what Clark wants to be than maybe they can reconcile. I can't believe Jor-el would want to see his son continually hate him. Jor-el will have to compromise if he wants Clark to know about him and his past.

In conclusion, Timester is right about the here and now and I'm hoping Pal-el is right regarding the future.

greggbray

04-15-2006, 09:55 PM

"I don't know how people can excuse that. We've seen Jor-El kill someone. We've seen him hurt Jonathan. We've seen him play mind games and intimidation tactics on Clark. We've seen him basically brainwash Clark into being a souless, emotionless robot. And all of this is supposed to be good just because it's in the name of Clark accepting his destiny? That the ends justify the means? I just don't understand that."

Likewise. Jor-El sent Clark to Earth to conquer. He pushed Clark into a 3 month bender in Metropolis. He's responsible for Martha's miscarriage at the end of Season 2. He either directly or indirectly cause Jonathan heart problems. He killed a girl right in front of Clark at the end of Season 3. He reprogrammed Clark in the beginning of Season 4.

Yes, he brought Clark back, but he did it at an exchange of life. So, he either killed Jonathan (substituting him for Lana) OR he's a fatalist. Either way, he's not the warm fuzzy Jor-El of previous interpretations.

xrayvision

04-15-2006, 09:56 PM

Remember, when we saw the young Jor-El in Relic, he was good. I think this treatment he's giving Clark is a tough love phase of the technology in the cave/FOS. I think if we actually see Jor-El next season as I read in TVGuide, he will be a good guy. This voice-only thing can make him sound like a dictator, but when they actually show him, he will probably be much different.

All about Clark

04-15-2006, 10:24 PM

Originally posted by greggbray
"I don't know how people can excuse that. We've seen Jor-El kill someone. We've seen him hurt Jonathan. We've seen him play mind games and intimidation tactics on Clark. We've seen him basically brainwash Clark into being a souless, emotionless robot. And all of this is supposed to be good just because it's in the name of Clark accepting his destiny? That the ends justify the means? I just don't understand that."

Likewise. Jor-El sent Clark to Earth to conquer. He pushed Clark into a 3 month bender in Metropolis. He's responsible for Martha's miscarriage at the end of Season 2. He either directly or indirectly cause Jonathan heart problems. He killed a girl right in front of Clark at the end of Season 3. He reprogrammed Clark in the beginning of Season 4.

Jor-el did not kill Lindsay. Lindsay died in the meteor shower as the show says and Jor-el used her body to create Kara. It is unclear if Kara's actions were Jor-el's or whatever.

Jor-el sent Clark to Earth firstly to save his son. It was Clark's interpretation regarding "to conquer". We still don't know Jor-el's actual intent yet. But Jor-el did make it clear that Clark needed to learn to protect the planet from a Kryptonian force.

There is no doubt that Jor-el has treated Clark and his family badly, but we clearly have not learned of Jor-el's full intent as of yet.

I'm still hoping for a change and a reconciliation. I can't believe Jor-el would want his son to hate him.

son2380

04-16-2006, 12:40 AM

Jor-el is not human he is Krytonian, plus the entity in the cave is the eradicator. The eradicator at first tried to help clark, and clark actualyl trusted it. Then it tried to turn him into a mindless Krytonian.

the real Jor-el is not like this, the thing that is talking to clark is a computer similation. Its a machine incapable of showing human emotions, the only thing it knows is logic. Human rationality does not always agree with logic.

there is nothing evil about Jor-el. The computer doing what it was programed to do in a rational manner.

Pal-El

04-16-2006, 03:22 AM

Originally posted by xrayvision
Remember, when we saw the young Jor-El in Relic, he was good. I think this treatment he's giving Clark is a tough love phase of the technology in the cave/FOS. I think if we actually see Jor-El next season as I read in TVGuide, he will be a good guy. This voice-only thing can make him sound like a dictator, but when they actually show him, he will probably be much different.

I agree, many others dont, but I do and thats all that matters in the end:p

ColdKryptonite

04-16-2006, 05:19 AM

In smallville jor-el believes he's doing the right thing to mould his son, in other words: Tough love.

greggbray

04-16-2006, 06:55 AM

Well, we either have a major inconsistency, as I can never accept this particular jor-el as turning out to be *good* (that kind of reversal would be nothing more thanindicative of bad writing, pure and simple)

He would have to be either the eradicator, or zod, or just played out as a fatalist (at best) or a murderer (At worst)

Yes, he was wesome in relic, and seemed nice in Memoria (ie, sending Clark to the Kent's and expressing concern with Lara before sending Clark to Earth).

If that thing in the cave turns out to be 'Jor-El' then we have a major inconsistency. Tough love is one thing. Being directly responsible for several deaths (the argument 'he didn't kill the girl' doesn't wash--even if it were true, and he was acting through her, he killed an FBI agent) is something else entirely.

xrayvision

04-16-2006, 11:19 AM

I don't think he killed Lindsay/Kara. I think he erased her mind and transported her somewhere else like he did to Clark/Kal-El in Crusade. I could say that Lindsay did the same to Agent Loder, but she pretty much admitted to killing him and she also killed or seriously injured that driver in that SUV at the beginning of Covenant.

I understand what you mean by inconsistency. Maybe the cave technology was somehow corrupted (perhaps by humans like Dr. Walden). I would like them to revisit this subject to clear things up and do it in a believable manner.

Watching Smallville

04-16-2006, 11:26 AM

I thought the presence that Clark had been dealing with as Jor-El was actually an artiificial intelligence. I take that as the reason that Jor-El's actions sometimes seem inhuman and that in his actions, the ends seem to justify the means. Only when Jor-El occupied Lionel did we see the humanity of the man -- perhaps because he was inhabiting a living person where that humanity could be expressed.

Just a thought.

Pal-El

04-16-2006, 12:47 PM

Maybe somebody should ask Ausellio

LuckyKrypto

04-16-2006, 01:05 PM

Originally posted by Watching Smallville
I thought the presence that Clark had been dealing with as Jor-El was actually an artiificial intelligence. I take that as the reason that Jor-El's actions sometimes seem inhuman and that in his actions, the ends seem to justify the means. Only when Jor-El occupied Lionel did we see the humanity of the man -- perhaps because he was inhabiting a living person where that humanity could be expressed.

Just a thought.

I like this thought:)

I also still think that there is more to JorEl than what we have been shown thus far.
I think we are only getting bits and pieces here and there in diffrent episodes, so for me the jury is still out on him.

xrayvision

04-16-2006, 01:39 PM

I wonder if we will ever see a scene where Chloe is looking for Clark and we see him just returning from the FOS after learning stuff from Jor-El. That would clearly show that he's on his way to becoming Superman. What bothers me is that Jor-El has been warning him of imminent dangers (or lately Clark has been going to him to get that warning and had to be the one to initiate). If he knows that Fine is still around, why is he wasting time?

All about Clark

04-16-2006, 02:01 PM

Well Clark went to Jor-el when he was desperate in Reckoning and Solitude, possibly he won't go to Jor-el until he is again desperate.

But your right, Clark could at least inquire about Fine to Jor-el. But I think he doesn't cause he knows the answer to that is to trust Jor-el and right now he doesn't. So we are back to waiting til Clark is desperate.

bunkmania

04-16-2006, 04:55 PM

Well, i just asked ausiello. Heres to hoping hell answer! :)

xrayvision

04-16-2006, 08:38 PM

Originally posted by All about Clark
Well Clark went to Jor-el when he was desperate in Reckoning and Solitude, possibly he won't go to Jor-el until he is again desperate.

But your right, Clark could at least inquire about Fine to Jor-el. But I think he doesn't cause he knows the answer to that is to trust Jor-el and right now he doesn't. So we are back to waiting til Clark is desperate.

Well, after Solitude he should learn to trust Jor-El.

IVODARK

04-16-2006, 08:53 PM

Well the explanation for all of Jor-El's actions is actually very simple: arbitrary drama.

All about Clark

04-16-2006, 09:50 PM

Originally posted by xrayvision
Well, after Solitude he should learn to trust Jor-El.

I don't get you. In Solitude Clark asked Jor-el to help save his mother and Jor-el denied. So how would that affect trust.

And even if you meant Reckoning, Clark got Jor-el's help, but Jor-el wasn't about to stop the trajedy of losing someone. As far as either episode, no trust was gained. All Clark knows is that Jor-el is one powerful dead dude.

xrayvision

04-17-2006, 08:03 AM

In Solitude, Clark believed all the bad stuff Fine said about Jor-El and nearly got himself killed for nothing and almost allowed Zod to return.

Jor-El strictly said to return to him before sundown in Arrival and he didn't. Jor-El couldn't stop the tragedy of losing someone. As he said, Kryptonians aren't gods. If Clark is becoming a man (or should I say Superman), then he has to realize that what Jor-El has been telling him all along has been in his best interests. Everytime he failed to listen to him, something bad has happened. And unfortunately, the Kents were holding him back from listening to him (I don't blame them though since they were unaware of his true intentions). What Jonathan told him was on the same wavelength as what Jor-El has been saying, but on a much more human level. If Clark realizes this, then he should see that the 2 are sending him the same message and that he should follow it before it's too late. Up until now they have made Clark disobey in order to create drama (with the 2nd meteor shower, the stones, Fine, Jonathan's death, etc) but now's the time where he has to follow those instructions.

If they want drama, then let them make him get beaten when he deals with Fine. This will show that he's doing what he's supposed to but is inexperienced in dealing with Kryptonians and is willing to learn.

Timester

04-17-2006, 08:31 AM

Originally posted by xrayvision
In Solitude, Clark believed all the bad stuff Fine said about Jor-El and nearly got himself killed for nothing and almost allowed Zod to return.

Jor-El strictly said to return to him before sundown in Arrival and he didn't. Jor-El couldn't stop the tragedy of losing someone. As he said, Kryptonians aren't gods. If Clark is becoming a man (or should I say Superman), then he has to realize that what Jor-El has been telling him all along has been in his best interests. Everytime he failed to listen to him, something bad has happened. And unfortunately, the Kents were holding him back from listening to him (I don't blame them though since they were unaware of his true intentions). What Jonathan told him was on the same wavelength as what Jor-El has been saying, but on a much more human level. If Clark realizes this, then he should see that the 2 are sending him the same message and that he should follow it before it's too late. Up until now they have made Clark disobey in order to create drama (with the 2nd meteor shower, the stones, Fine, Jonathan's death, etc) but now's the time where he has to follow those instructions.

If they want drama, then let them make him get beaten when he deals with Fine. This will show that he's doing what he's supposed to but is inexperienced in dealing with Kryptonians and is willing to learn.

What seriously Clark needs from Jor-El to become Superman?

All about Clark

04-17-2006, 11:09 AM

Originally posted by xrayvision
Jor-El strictly said to return to him before sundown in Arrival and he didn't. Jor-El couldn't stop the tragedy of losing someone. As he said, Kryptonians aren't gods. If Clark is becoming a man (or should I say Superman), then he has to realize that what Jor-El has been telling him all along has been in his best interests. Everytime he failed to listen to him, something bad has happened. And unfortunately, the Kents were holding him back from listening to him (I don't blame them though since they were unaware of his true intentions). What Jonathan told him was on the same wavelength as what Jor-El has been saying, but on a much more human level. If Clark realizes this, then he should see that the 2 are sending him the same message and that he should follow it before it's too late. Up until now they have made Clark disobey in order to create drama (with the 2nd meteor shower, the stones, Fine, Jonathan's death, etc) but now's the time where he has to follow those instructions.

For Clark, all this did was to be weary of Jor-el and to be more careful of his decisions regarding Jor-el, it does not give one trust. And until Clark can trust him, he's not going to go to him unless he becomes desperate.

Maybe Clark can become Superman without Jor-el, but I'm hoping for a reconciliation and for Jor-el to help give Clark wisdom and an understanding of Clark's background.

xrayvision

04-17-2006, 01:25 PM

Originally posted by All about Clark
For Clark, all this did was to be weary of Jor-el and to be more careful of his decisions regarding Jor-el, it does not give one trust. And until Clark can trust him, he's not going to go to him unless he becomes desperate.

I think that's the problem. He waits too long before going to him and then blames Jor-El when nothing can be done. This is exactly what happened with the 2nd meteor shower. Had he listened and gotten to the stones 1st as Jor-El told him to do, that whole fiasco would have been avoided. Yes, they did this for the dramatic effect, but they can have him be obedient to Jor-El and still have problems/need help from him. That would also add drama and make him more responsible.

Originally posted by All about Clark
Maybe Clark can become Superman without Jor-el, but I'm hoping for a reconciliation and for Jor-el to help give Clark wisdom and an understanding of Clark's background.

I don't think so. So far, he needed to be pushed and pushed by Jor-El, Chloe, and the latest JK (and for JK I mean pushed to his true destiny of becoming Superman, not just a regular hero). He needs to have many discussions with Jor-El so he can learn to avoid making mistakes that Jor-El made while he was on Earth.

myankskent

04-17-2006, 01:29 PM

Originally posted by xrayvision

I don't think so. So far, he needed to be pushed and pushed by Jor-El, Chloe, and the latest JK (and for JK I mean pushed to his true destiny of becoming Superman, not just a regular hero). He needs to have many discussions with Jor-El so he can learn to avoid making mistakes that Jor-El made while he was on Earth.

This is another problem that I have with the show. Now maybe it has to do with when Terence Stamp is available to do the voice work, but Reckoning was a useless episode because Clark never returned to the fortress afterwards to discuss what happened with JorEl. I thought that we would be getting a lot more JorEl episodes post reckoning, but now it seems that we won't see him until the finale, which is just not good enough.

Liriel

04-17-2006, 07:36 PM

I wouldn't listen to Jor-El, either. First there are messages about ruling the world. Later Jor-El lies and murders.

All about Clark

04-17-2006, 07:47 PM

Xrayvision, you're missing a few points, Clark doesn't trust Jor-el nor does he want him in his life, he only wants the Kents in his life. He doesn't feel his owes Jor-el the demands Jor-el is making. He is appalled by Jor-el when Jor-el is willing to let people die even if it is for a greater good. Also, you have the advantage of knowing who Jor-el is and Clark's future, which Clark knows neither. That's the biggest problem with the posters is that they know far more than these characters.

MBCorp

04-17-2006, 07:53 PM

Originally posted by All about Clark
Xrayvision, you're missing a few points, Clark doesn't trust Jor-el nor does he want him in his life, he only wants the Kents in his life. He doesn't feel his owes Jor-el the demands Jor-el is making. He is appalled by Jor-el when Jor-el is willing to let people die even if it is for a greater good. Also, you have the advantage of knowing who Jor-el is and Clark's future, which Clark knows neither. That's the biggest problem with the posters is that they know far more than these characters.

WORD.

Jor-El has given Clark no reason to trust or listen to him.

LastFatherOfKrypton

04-17-2006, 09:19 PM

It looks like I must intervene here!

Jor-El has clear reasons/intentions for doing what he does, not as humans understand but as the "Will of a Kryptonian" father who understands and know the weight of what is about to take place in Kal-El existence on Earth!

Clearly in this version as we have seen (as some writers have depicted) Jor-El appears to be a monster of unimaginable proportions.....far worse than the Luthors??

For instance, Jor-El has told Kal-El/Clark even in Commencement that uniting the three stones would save Earth!

Other times Jor-El has given him warning.....only to have as we have seen Clark disobey with tragic consequences which were "Rectified" by the care of Jor-El to his son's blindness.

The rest you can get from rewatching those scenes of Jor-El and Clark dialog.

Goodnite!

All about Clark

04-17-2006, 11:14 PM

Again, your opinions are based on knowledge Clark does not have. Clark does not know his future or his father's intent.

I think the better question is "How do we get from Clark not trusting Jor-el to making this leap to forgive and trust?"

TKFlash

04-18-2006, 12:37 AM

Clark need to become a little more mature. He always jumpes to conclusions about his father a is ready to assume the worst. Clark is not looking in the long run as Jor-El is, he has to understand that the logical choices is the world over what he wants. Clark needs to put his emotions asside and decide whats the better for earth. It's not all about Lana, or Marhtha. or Clark; its about the well being of the world.
"the matters of the hearts clouds his better judgement

xrayvision

04-18-2006, 03:20 AM

I understand that Clark doesn't know what we know of Jor-El, but he even admitted himself that whenever he disobeyed Jor-El, bad things wound up happening. And if he would take time to look at the consequences and why all these disasters happened, most of the time Jor-El did not cause them (at least lately). I definitely understand his initial synopsis of Jor-El after what happened in Exodus & Covenant. But even after looking at those instances in S2 & S3 (which we can assume was the result of Jor-El wanting him to train to get the stones after what we saw in S4) and the consequences (that 2nd meteor shower, 2 evil Kryptonians, and the ship/Fine). After looking at the big picture, it should be seen by Clark that Jor-El tried to get him to react to these circumstances at a time when lives lost would have been minimal. If he is doing all this rhetorical thinking, then he should also ask himself how many people died due to that meteor shower after Jor-El told him to act at a certain time, and he acted at the last minute when it was too late. This is an analysis that he can do and doesn't need the future to contemplate.

Timester

04-18-2006, 08:59 AM

Again, Jor-El killed a girl, hurt Jonathan, did mind-games with Clark and mind-controlled him. Yes, he is a bastard. Not a bad one, but a bastard.

Clark doesn't need absolutelly nothing from the FOS and Jor-El to become Superman. Nothing. He just need to grow a pair, stop acting like a emo kid and start think for himself (lately Clark is braindead and Chloe does all the thinking for him).

OutlawAngel

04-18-2006, 03:43 PM

Originally posted by LastFatherOfKrypton
It looks like I must intervene here!

Jor-El has clear reasons/intentions for doing what he does, not as humans understand but as the "Will of a Kryptonian" father who understands and know the weight of what is about to take place in Kal-El existence on Earth!

Clearly in this version as we have seen (as some writers have depicted) Jor-El appears to be a monster of unimaginable proportions.....far worse than the Luthors??

For instance, Jor-El has told Kal-El/Clark even in Commencement that uniting the three stones would save Earth!

Other times Jor-El has given him warning.....only to have as we have seen Clark disobey with tragic consequences which were "Rectified" by the care of Jor-El to his son's blindness.

The rest you can get from rewatching those scenes of Jor-El and Clark dialog.

Goodnite!

Here is the problem. We know Jor El is good and most likely does mean well for the human race. But Clark doesnt know this. its like a book and we have all flipped to the last page so we know who is good and bad but Clark as of now does not know this and as of right now Jor El has given Clark no real reason to trust him.

It proabably helps me that I have never really cared for Superman so I dont know as much of details as people who have read comics or seen the movies so maybe that is why a (atleast portrayed for now) evil Jor-El does not bother me. Its just a different take on a legendary tale. Even if this dont turn out like many think it will just remeber this is almost AU considering how different things are on this show from other takes of the tale.

myankskent

04-18-2006, 03:47 PM

Originally posted by Timester
Again, Jor-El killed a girl, hurt Jonathan, did mind-games with Clark and mind-controlled him. Yes, he is a bastard. Not a bad one, but a bastard.

Clark doesn't need absolutelly nothing from the FOS and Jor-El to become Superman. Nothing. He just need to grow a pair, stop acting like a emo kid and start think for himself (lately Clark is braindead and Chloe does all the thinking for him).

I agree with what you say, but I have disliked JorEl's character to this point. He has taken things to the extreme and you could argue that he has done worse things than Lionel over the course of the series, which is pretty bad to say.

OutlawAngel

04-18-2006, 03:54 PM

Originally posted by TKFlash
Clark need to become a little more mature. He always jumpes to conclusions about his father a is ready to assume the worst. Clark is not looking in the long run as Jor-El is, he has to understand that the logical choices is the world over what he wants. Clark needs to put his emotions asside and decide whats the better for earth. It's not all about Lana, or Marhtha. or Clark; its about the well being of the world.
"the matters of the hearts clouds his better judgement

Goes back to us knowing what Clark does not. Why should Clark trust Jor El just from what Clark knows of him so far? True Jor El warned him about the stones but Jor El really didnt spill that info until Lana already got blood on the stone. Before then all Clark knew was that Jor El had tricked him inside the gave wall using Kara and then Jor El threatened to kill Jonathan which he almost succeded at. Then Jor El brainwashed Clark into Kal El. Yah know I think I can see why Clark doesnt trust him. To me right now jor El sounds like a psychotic maniac who doesnt want Zod to rule the World but Clark to do so.

Hoenstly how can Clark know that Jor El is good? Jor El has done nothing but cruel and maniac things thus far. he has never explained to Clark that Clark must defend the world just that he has to rule it. I think maybe Kryptonian language must have some words backwards to ours maybe? you know like rule means protect in Kryptonian or something?

myankskent

04-18-2006, 04:14 PM

Originally posted by OutlawAngel
Goes back to us knowing what Clark does not. Why should Clark trust Jor El just from what Clark knows of him so far? True Jor El warned him about the stones but Jor El really didnt spill that info until Lana already got blood on the stone. Before then all Clark knew was that Jor El had tricked him inside the gave wall using Kara and then Jor El threatened to kill Jonathan which he almost succeded at. Then Jor El brainwashed Clark into Kal El. Yah know I think I can see why Clark doesnt trust him. To me right now jor El sounds like a psychotic maniac who doesnt want Zod to rule the World but Clark to do so.

Hoenstly how can Clark know that Jor El is good? Jor El has done nothing but cruel and maniac things thus far. he has never explained to Clark that Clark must defend the world just that he has to rule it. I think maybe Kryptonian language must have some words backwards to ours maybe? you know like rule means protect in Kryptonian or something?

I agree with everything that you said.

son2380

04-19-2006, 07:23 PM

Originally posted by Timester
Again, Jor-El killed a girl, hurt Jonathan, did mind-games with Clark and mind-controlled him. Yes, he is a bastard. Not a bad one, but a bastard.

Clark doesn't need absolutelly nothing from the FOS and Jor-El to become Superman. Nothing. He just need to grow a pair, stop acting like a emo kid and start think for himself (lately Clark is braindead and Chloe does all the thinking for him).

Thank you man I thought I was the only one that Noticed that Chloe was doing all of the thinking for a Clark. I really hate this about Smalleville.

xrayvision

04-19-2006, 08:16 PM

Originally posted by OutlawAngel
True Jor El warned him about the stones but Jor El really didnt spill that info until Lana already got blood on the stone.

Actually, he warned him before blood got on the stone, back in Sacred. I noticed that starting in Sacred, Jor-El has been much better than prior. I would agree that Jor-El has done some bad stuff if you look at it in the viewpoint of the timeframe in which those things happened. But if Clark actually looks at the aftermath, he should see that Jor-El does mean well, those his tactics of persuasion are extreme. It should be obvious to Clark *as of now* that what happened in Exodus & Covenant was done to get him to find the stones before all that stuff that happened in S4 occured. He also admitted in Arrival that he knows there is a lot he can learn from Jor-El, and Jor-El did allow him to save Chloe, but sternly requested that he return before sundown.

What happened to Jonathan & Lana in Reckoning was not Jor-El's fault (Clark also knows this now). And he did jump to conclusions about what Fine told him in Solitude and almost destroyed the FOS because he was too trusting of Fine. In a way, I don't blame him after all the perceived bad things Jor-El did, but the choice to believe Fine, whom he just met, was a sloppy one. Now is the time that Clark must reflect on Jor-El's actions and make a decision on how he will deal with him. The FOS isn't going away, and this must be done eventually.

Ares

04-20-2006, 11:00 AM

Jor-el is just like every other father there jerks growing up but once your grown up you wished you were more close to him before its too late.

I dunno maybe not everybodys dad is a jerk but mine was an other ppl I know thought so .. So hmm?

t.ko

04-20-2006, 11:16 AM

I think maybe, just maybe Clark needed to be pushed by Jor-el. Maybe by being the villain, Jor-el made Clark and Johnathan and Martha stand together against the threat, Jor-el. they stood together and had to deal with Jor-el. I think that if Jor-el did not do this then maybe it could have affected the future outcome. i mean Smallville took the Superman Movie's approach to kill johnathan and i dont think it was bad that johnathan was killed. however i wouldnt have minded if johnathan didnt die. im just trying to say that maybe Jor-el is the bad guy but thats maybe what clark needed.