Ep 4.12 - Pariah [Archive] - KSiteTV Television & Movie Forums

shy175223

02-09-2006, 10:11 AM

Originally posted by jdot
Um, excuse me? I didn't compare the two characters. The only comparison I made was of her being a METAHUMAN he had a relationship with. That's what Lori was. She was (and is) a lot more than that in the comics, yes, but this isn't the comics. If you're going to take a purist attitude towards characters in this show you're going to find yourself beating your head into a wall continually because none of it is going to work.

And we don't know that Clark was only happy because he didn't have to hide his abilities from her. That clearly isn't the only thing he liked about her, otherwise he wouldn't have still been with her in Pariah.

I am more than welcome to post my opinions and observations here. That's what this forum is for. If you would like to get into a detailed explanation as to why Alicia can never ever be compared or contrasted to Lori, go right ahead. Give me reasons, not rants.

well, I' m sorry but Alicia was NOT a metahuman she was a metreo freak, so speak. She even stated so in 'obsessive' that she was she was sitting on a swing when the metoer shower hit. So there is no still comparions to that among other things. Including the fact that she as from the Lost contintent of Atlantis where Alicia was from Sv. Lori was hardly unstable or a stalker.

And yes, Clark even stated in that same episode that he felt he connect with her because'he felt that he didn't have to HIDE from her' The reason he was with her again was because he thought she was cured. Well, actions in 'Pariah' stated otherwise. She might not have been a crazed stalker but she was still a little unstable. And I said before I would have like Alicia better if they didn't make her out to be a psycho chick.

jdot

02-09-2006, 10:50 AM

What is your definition of Metahuman then? Mutants aren't metahumans? That's what Alicia is, after all. She was mutated by Kryptonite. Peter Parker was mutated by a spider bite, but I don't see people saying that you can't call him a Metahuman. I don't see them as mutually exclusive terms: a mutant is a type of metahuman.

shy175223

02-09-2006, 11:24 AM

IMo. I still see no comparison between the two. they are two different characters.

greggbray

02-14-2006, 10:06 PM

The first time I saw Alicia's death, I almost vomitted. Literally. It was such a shock, and such an upsetting image, my stomach turned. I had to walk away from the TV set for a while. I couldn't rationalize Clark NOT killing the FOTW that did that.

But it was well done. Chloe *knew* a bit more about Clark, and Clark learned that he had to always look for the good in people, and give people the benefit of the doubt, no matter what. So, in a way, it helped his transition.

The fact he's never mentioned her again is bothersome and puzzling....

Smokethatkryptonite

02-23-2006, 07:30 PM

Clark's attraction to her was he could have had a truthful relationship with her which is why RedK Clark proposed because deep down Clark wants someone he can have a real relationship with.

shy175223

02-24-2006, 03:36 PM

Clark's attraction to her was that he wouldn't have to hide his abilities from her.

Smokethatkryptonite

02-24-2006, 08:37 PM

I said truthful

shy175223

02-25-2006, 06:58 AM

sorry, it's not the same thing.

Rize Above

02-25-2006, 07:25 PM

They better bring Alicia back. >_<!

shy175223

02-25-2006, 11:32 PM

not unless it's in a flashback like they did with Whitney . That's the ONLY way she will ever comeback which I doubt will ever happen.

Zungas

02-26-2006, 03:03 PM

i agree...just give Alicia a fit ending.

watcher4

02-26-2006, 11:54 PM

Clark's reaction upon finding Alicia dead was chilling.

Zungas

03-09-2006, 05:45 PM

alicia be back...oh yes...alicia will be back.

shy175223

03-09-2006, 05:54 PM

I wouldn't count on it. Hopefully not.

warriorrenegade

03-09-2006, 08:21 PM

Shame she was killed off, her character could've carried on a few more episodes. Have Clark and her have a small relationship and have a clean break, not just a sudden death and end to it all. I believe even TPTB admitted they shouldn't have killed off her character.

UpandAtom

03-10-2006, 05:54 PM

I think Alicia should've committed suicide instead of a freak making it look that way.

love_sv

03-17-2006, 10:34 AM

I'm sorry but I fail to see the attraction with Alicia. I'm kind of glad the character was killed off! You just know she is bad news from the first time you see her! Very overrated character IMO.

Zungas

03-17-2006, 04:18 PM

What?!!

shy175223

03-17-2006, 05:05 PM

Hey Come one, respect their opinons here. Not every one liked Alicia

love_sv

03-17-2006, 11:06 PM

Lol! Sorry Zungas, but I can't pretend I liked Alicia. I tried to be tame in my post too!

Hey Come one, respect their opinons here. Not every one liked Alicia

Thank you.

LexLuv180

03-19-2006, 03:28 PM

This was an amazing episode. I always thought Lana was a witch here. She refused to see Clark or give Alicia any chance; in a way I understand but in another she was too unrelenting. The ending was so sad and tragic, great stuff.

As for Alicia, I loved her. She was great. I really enjoyed her and Clark together, they should have carried it on longer but of course they probably wanted to use her as briefly as possible so it wouldnt ruin Clark's chances with Lana too bad. BLEH. When her and Clark were together it seemed he was being more open about being different in front of others in some aspect, more comfortable because he had someone like him on his side. I would have liked to see her interact with more people with Clark though - would have liked to see how his parents treated her inf ront of them and Lex's reaction. It also bugged me there was nothing with Lana appologizing for being wrong here when the truth was realized. The scene with Chloe found out about Clark - absolutely brilliant, one of the best scenes of the season. Loved it. The special effects were great. And when she said to Lois, I never should have started this wall...or the ending funeral scene, great.

UpandAtom

03-20-2006, 10:49 AM

I thought Lana was being unfair when she immedately thought that Alicia was the one that attacked her. She acted as if no one else ever tried to stalk, molest, or kill her.

LuckyKrypto

03-20-2006, 07:39 PM

This was by far one of my favorites from this season.
I was so happy when Chloe found out Clarks secret, I loved how things played out on her end. Her conversation with Lois about finding out about someone's secret and what she would do....I really liked that whole conversation!:D
I also liked the ending a lot! In other stories about Superman I had thought I had remembered him being more of the type of hero that he would rather people know his secret then to let someone else be accused of something they didn't do just to keep his secret. When Clark is talking with his parents about not being able to forgive himself for what happened with Alicia I thought some of that was pointing to that characteristic that he will carry later.
Overall, I really enjoyed this episode:)

OutlawAngel

04-05-2006, 09:47 PM

The begining of this episode was great starting with Lois and Chloe Karaoke and then Lois saying 'First he marries the girl then he dates her' That is a great laugh and one of my favorite humorous moments of the series.

Smokethatkryptonite

04-09-2006, 07:37 PM

I usually don't hate Lana, but in this episode she was a total b*tch

Mr. Wrong

04-10-2006, 09:05 AM

This was an amazing episode. Alicia was gorgeous and the sparks between her and Clark were amazing. Having her enlighten Chloe before being brutally murdered was a stroke of genius. The writers even thought to have Lois give some sound guidance to her cousin. Finally showing a side of her character that we can truly admire.

shy175223

04-10-2006, 09:22 AM

Originally posted by Mr. Wrong
This was an amazing episode. Alicia was gorgeous and the sparks between her and Clark were amazing. Having her enlighten Chloe before being brutally murdered was a stroke of genius.

Oh yeah sure, forget the fact that she did betray Clark's trust after she sworn that she would take the secert to her grave.. pleaseee.

Mr. Wrong

04-10-2006, 12:35 PM

The girl took a bullet for him didn't she? She only revealed his secret out of desperation because he left her between a rock and a hard place. You talk like Clark has always been righteous.

shy175223

04-10-2006, 11:39 PM

Originally posted by Mr. Wrong
The girl took a bullet for him didn't she? She only revealed his secret out of desperation because he left her between a rock and a hard place. You talk like Clark has always been righteous.

And you talk as if the girl was right in going BACK on her word desperate or not.

Mr. Wrong

04-11-2006, 07:10 AM

Clark deserted her when she needed him the most. She outed him to his best friend because she was feeling all alone and afraid and thought that if she outed Clark then she wouldn't have to face the impending exile all by herself. Even Clark realized this after she was murdered. Why can't you? After all, she gave him her word that she was not the one responsible for the attacks but he didn't accept it. I would like to see how honor bound you feel towards someone who accuses you of lying when you are completely innocent! Remember, Clark is the Man of Steel, not Alicia.

shy175223

04-11-2006, 03:05 PM

Originally posted by Mr. Wrong
Clark deserted her when she needed him the most. She outed him to his best friend because she was feeling all alone and afraid and thought that if she outed Clark then she wouldn't have to face the impending exile all by herself. Even Clark realized this after she was murdered. Why can't you? After all, she gave him her word that she was not the one responsible for the attacks but he didn't accept it. I would like to see how honor bound you feel towards someone who accuses you of lying when you are completely innocent! Remember, Clark is the Man of Steel, not Alicia.

Ohh pleasess, feeling allll alone and afraid is no excuse for outing someone out of spite, no excuse at all. :rolleyes:

Mr. Wrong

04-12-2006, 07:24 AM

She was basically saying,if you don't have my back then don't expect me to have yours! That's not an excuse, its simply human nature. Remember, Clark is the one who isn't human! I realize that yours is a different perspective than mine but I am willing to bet there aren't a lot of guys out there who are as negative towards Alicia as you seem to be.

auxvis

04-12-2006, 09:08 AM

Even so...there is no excuse for Alicia telling Chloe...

I am a guy and am not trying to necessarily be negative towards Alicia but she gave him his word not to tell anyone and she did it anyway...There is no excuse for that, ever...

I still protect secrets of people I can't stand because it is the right thing to do...You must honor your word...

Kryptonian Snake

04-12-2006, 11:14 AM

Originally posted by Mr. Wrong
She was basically saying,if you don't have my back then don't expect me to have yours! That's not an excuse, its simply human nature. Remember, Clark is the one who isn't human! I realize that yours is a different perspective than mine but I am willing to bet there aren't a lot of guys out there who are as negative towards Alicia as you seem to be.
Just because it's human nature doesn't mean what Alicia did was right. She gave Clark her word that she'd keep his secret, and wasn't her right to reveal it. She was falsely accused and many assumed she was guilty, but it's not like the sherriff locked her up without a trial. Honestly, I can't completely blame Clark for having his doubts based on Alicia's history and the evidence. Blind loyalty is not a good thing.

Mr. Wrong

04-12-2006, 12:16 PM

Didn't Clark promise to love Lana forever just a few episodes ago and didn't he tell her that he changed his mind even more recently. Alicia already put her life on the line to protect Clark's secret once. How did he repay that act of devotion. He as much as accuses her of lying to him without doing any investigation what-so-ever. Her failure to keep her word created a fantastic story board envolving Chloe's role in the Smallville version of Superman. His failure cost the girl her life. Has this fact been lost on you?

Kryptonian Snake

04-12-2006, 12:55 PM

Originally posted by Mr. Wrong
Didn't Clark promise to love Lana forever just a few episodes ago and didn't he tell her that he changed his mind even more recently. Alicia already put her life on the line to protect Clark's secret once. How did he repay that act of devotion. He as much as accuses her of lying to him without doing any investigation what-so-ever. Her failure to keep her word created a fantastic story board envolving Chloe's role in the Smallville version of Superman. His failure cost the girl her life. Has this fact been lost on you?
I agree that Clark should have much more thorough in his investigation. However, when he became skeptical of Alicia's story he knew:
[list=1] Lana was attacked behind a closed locked door.
Someone claimed Alicia was in an alley near the Talon when Lana was attacked.
Her scarf was in the car when Jason was attacked.
Alicia wasn't wearing her bracelet.
[/list=1]There was also reason to be skeptical of her mental health since her psychiatrist released her so he could date her. She might not have been truly "cured". It's also probably safe to question how well Clark and Alicia really knew each other. It wasn't specified how much time passed between Unsafe and this episode. Should Clark have ignored the evidence and presumed Alicia was innocent? It was unjustified to presume she was guilty, but it was perfectly reasonable to doubt her story.

auxvis

04-12-2006, 01:01 PM

I agree. Clark completely stood by Alicia in Unsafe...It wasn't until evidence started mounting up against her (however false it proved to be) that he started to get skeptical...You can't blame him for that...it is like if every sign is pointing one way you can't expect someone to go the other way...

Mr. Wrong

04-12-2006, 01:54 PM

Clark couldn't possibly have thought that Alicia would have attack Jason using her scarf as a weapon. Lana maybe, but Jason? I don't buy it for a second. Obviously Lana had a new love interest so why would she, or Jason for that matter, be a threat to her relationship with Clark?

shy175223

04-12-2006, 03:42 PM

Originally posted by Mr. Wrong
Clark couldn't possibly have thought that Alicia would have attack Jason using her scarf as a weapon. Lana maybe, but Jason? I don't buy it for a second. Obviously Lana had a new love interest so why would she, or Jason for that matter, be a threat to her relationship with Clark?

Well, obvisously he had. and who could blame him afterall she had attacked Lana even though Lana and clark claimed that they were just friends. In her state of mind at the time it wouldn't have matter whether anyway. She still would;ve seemd a threat beccause he still have feelings for Lana.

Originally posted by Mr. Wrong
She was basically saying,if you don't have my back then don't expect me to have yours! That's not an excuse, its simply human nature. Remember, Clark is the one who isn't human! I realize that yours is a different perspective than mine but I am willing to bet there aren't a lot of guys out there who are as negative towards Alicia as you seem to be.

no what I'm saying is that being spitefull just because someone doubts you doesn't give you an excuse to go back on your word. That is why I'm negative towards Alicia because she did betray his trust right or wrong.

Mr. Wrong

04-13-2006, 12:54 PM

Wasn't it Clark who revealed his secret to her in the first place. Had it been anyone else he would have been outed then and there. She protected him right up until he tried to turn her in to the cops a second time. Seems to me she went above and beyond the call of duty under the circumstances. Alicia kept her word in good faith all throughout her treatment period. We don't know exactly how long that was but I'm sure it was no mean feat. Clark got what he deserved and still ended up alive and secure. In fact, he probably would be dead by now if Chloe didn't know the truth!

Zungas

04-13-2006, 01:28 PM

...and the truth shall set u free haha.

auxvis

04-13-2006, 01:57 PM

She never went above and beyond...When you say you will never tell someone and then you do...that isn't going above and beyond...In fact, the only way to really go above and beyond would be to say...sacrifice your life to keep the secret or something like that...

She just got mad and told...That isn't going above and beyond...

She made a promise and didn't keep it...And in not doing so could have completely ruined Clark's life...She had no right to do that.

shy175223

04-13-2006, 02:26 PM

^exactly^ thank you!

Originally posted by Mr. Wrong
Wasn't it Clark who revealed his secret to her in the first place. Had it been anyone else he would have been outed then and there. She protected him right up until he tried to turn her in to the cops a second time. Seems to me she went above and beyond the call of duty under the circumstances. Alicia kept her word in good faith all throughout her treatment period. We don't know exactly how long that was but I'm sure it was no mean feat. Clark got what he deserved and still ended up alive and secure. In fact, he probably would be dead by now if Chloe didn't know the truth!

First of all he revealed his secert to her in the first place because he had to. In obsession they were trapped in elevator that had gone wrong, she in turned did the something except she went completey bonkers after that by trying to kill Lana.

But when she forced Clark to reveal his abilities without his knowledge out of spite will than that is something else. She showed it to Chloe only becuase she wanted Chloe to tell everyone about Clark, and to Chloe's credit she never did.

j-kent

04-16-2006, 10:54 PM

I can't why see some of you argue with eachother about all of this...that is aggressively instead of just offering perspectives.

What I mean is you can't really justify who is right or wrong on doing what in this episode because people's sense of morality and right or wrong are all different.

What was done in the episode was done. Yes, one would say that Alicia was wrong to doubleback her word and reveal Clark's secret, however, in her perspective she felt that their was a greater good in people knowing Clark's secret just as they knew hers. I think it's safe to say that alot of people's own judgement of right or wrong can get clouded by their self-interests, or more specifically people they love. I think we can mirror that back to Clark. As he found Alicia dead he wanted to kill the FOTW, he was bound to as his vengeful love for Alicia clouded his judgement of morality.

However, this is a vital lesson for CK. In the end of the episode he said he will never forgive himself for turning against Alicia and doubting her. What makes or will strongly make Clark a superman is that he has the most unparalled sense of seeing the potential good in some of those that cross his path.

To change subjects, I thought that the FOTW even though I guess was supplemental to the plot was kind of iffy. I mean why this insignificant character go about going to extreme measures because he thought Jason and Lana's relationship was "wrong". [It just appears he was used to advanced the story to kill Alicia at the end] I also didn't get, to think logically, how that if he turned his hand into that whirlwind of transporting molecules that he could super punch Clark across the room. ???

shy175223

04-16-2006, 11:03 PM

You made good points there. But I'm saying right or wrong it wasn't right for Alicia to go back on her word after saying that she would keep his secert until the day she died than betray him out of spite. I think he cared very much for her but love..uh no way.

j-kent

04-16-2006, 11:14 PM

Of course it isn't. I share the same perspective as you do! :) but in my lil analysis up there, that is precisley what I am saying...see you said betray him out of spite. She went back on her word because some egoistic thing to spite him. However I word, in your understanding I think you get my concept I'm trying to push. As for Clark loving her thing, in the way he was about to kill that guy or wanting to...love..care..bleh it's all the same- haha- but the fact was that yeah his moral judgement was hazed by that. Good points though!

Mr. Wrong

04-17-2006, 07:20 AM

Above and beyond is what I said and I stick to it! You say she would have to have sacrificed her life in order to call it above and beyond, well that is exactly what she did when she took a bullet for him. She had no way of knowing that she wouldn't die then and there. How many times does one have to offer up their life to have it be considered above and beyond. What did she do anyway? Revealed a poorly kept secret. Hadn't Clark been instrumental in revealing her secret first? Oops! Clark the righteous was of course, justified. Alicia is written in as being emotionally disturbed and therefore not subject to any sort of leeway. Lets not forget that the poor girl had an amazing power bestowed upon her and had no guidance whatsoever in how to deal with the ramifications where Clark had a lifetime of support by two strong, loving parents. Alicia was a breath of fresh air in Clark's life and the only legacy she left was to escalate Chloe's role in the series. Let's try to honor that legacy. I glad she now seems to be a semi-regular cast member on Numbers. She is a terrific young actress!

shy175223

04-17-2006, 03:24 PM

Originally posted by Mr. Wrong
Above and beyond is what I said and I stick to it! You say she would have to have sacrificed her life in order to call it above and beyond, well that is exactly what she did when she took a bullet for him. She had no way of knowing that she wouldn't die then and there. How many times does one have to offer up their life to have it be considered above and beyond. What did she do anyway? Revealed a poorly kept secret. Hadn't Clark been instrumental in revealing her secret first? Oops! Clark the righteous was of course, justified. Alicia is written in as being emotionally disturbed and therefore not subject to any sort of leeway. Lets not forget that the poor girl had an amazing power bestowed upon her and had no guidance whatsoever in how to deal with the ramifications where Clark had a lifetime of support by two strong, loving parents. Alicia was a breath of fresh air in Clark's life and the only legacy she left was to escalate Chloe's role in the series. Let's try to honor that legacy. I glad she now seems to be a semi-regular cast member on Numbers. She is a terrific young actress!

Oh pleasesss don't make her out to be some sort of saint she isn't okay and her so called upbring is no excuse IMO for her betrayal still. She went far and beyond when she took that bullet she still should've went far and beyond no matter what after that. Yes, he did reveal her secert but in her case HE HAD To. Pleasees. The woman , as Chloe has put , went all Fatal Attraction on him. whatelse is he suppose to protect his family and friends from a psycho. And hey, i'm not putting down the actress just the character. and some breath of fresh air. A fresh air of unstable behaviour and lies and betrayal Please he gets enough of that from LEx.

Mr. Wrong

04-18-2006, 07:18 AM

There isn't one character in all of Smallville who hasn't displayed unstable behaviour at least once, with Martha maybe being the exception. In the original story Clark lived a passive, mundane existance which allowed the plausibility of not being recognized as Superman. The Smallville Clark, however, has been developed in such a way as to leave no doubt who is Superman once he chooses to appear. Alicia, under the circumstances, acted in the same manner as would the majority of the people in the world today. I suspect, that given the power to transport yourself at will, all of us would strive to have things go our own way at least once and awhile. A saint would have no place in a T.V. program about super human beings so I freely admit that Alicia was not without fault. I loved her all the more for it!

SteveS

04-18-2006, 09:07 AM

Alicia very clearly explained the so-called 'betrayal' of Clark, she wanted them to be accepted for what they were by the people of Smallville. Note also, that most that don't like Alicia ignore her changing and improving as a person in her last two episodes. In the end, she gave Clark his truest and best friend, Chloe, whether she considered that with her hope for acceptance, it is due to Alicia's 'betrayal', which of course has led to no betrayal of his secret at all.

shy175223

04-18-2006, 09:19 AM

Originally posted by SteveS
Alicia very clearly explained the so-called 'betrayal' of Clark, she wanted them to be accepted for what they were by the people of Smallville. Note also, that most that don't like Alicia ignore her changing and improving as a person in her last two episodes. In the end, she gave Clark his truest and best friend, Chloe, whether she considered that with her hope for acceptance, it is due to Alicia's 'betrayal', which of course has led to no betrayal of his secret at all.

No matter what RIGHT or wrong it still was an act of betrayal. She had no right to force Clark to use his abilites no matter what. She was just Lucky it WAS Chloe and for her part she never told anyone just like Alicia would have wanted to. Also note that I would've like Alicia all the more and believe her if she had sacarificed herself while trying to keep Clark's secert until she did die BUT since she hadn't so oh well...

Originally posted by Mr. Wrong
There isn't one character in all of Smallville who hasn't displayed unstable behaviour at least once, with Martha maybe being the exception. In the original story Clark lived a passive, mundane existance which allowed the plausibility of not being recognized as Superman. The Smallville Clark, however, has been developed in such a way as to leave no doubt who is Superman once he chooses to appear. Alicia, under the circumstances, acted in the same manner as would the majority of the people in the world today. I suspect, that given the power to transport yourself at will, all of us would strive to have things go our own way at least once and awhile. A saint would have no place in a T.V. program about super human beings so I freely admit that Alicia was not without fault. I loved her all the more for it!

good than you would admit that Alicia was wrong in betraying Clark than, and you are right Saints have no place in Smallville with the exception of martha and Jonathan . I would have not betrayed a friend that way no matter WHAT the cirumstanaces are. Taking away that choice without them having to decide for themselves just becuase things DO NOT go your way. Thats how I feel about Alicia, she was just plain wrong in betraying him no matter what the circumstances were.

SteveS

04-18-2006, 11:02 AM

There can be no theft without someone being robbed, there can be no murder without someone being killed, there can be no 'betrayal' without someone being betrayed. In result, Clark has suffered no betrayal in Alicia's ploy and play for acceptance, therefore love. Being an extremely intelligent girl, she correctly apprised Chloe on one level, she did not know of Chloe's attachment to Clark.

In the end, Clark owes Alicia a word of thanks for giving him a friend like Chloe. Had it not been done so, the non-betrayal betrayal, lives of several people would have been lost as Clark and Chloe have grown close. And the person indirectly responsible for saving the lives of numerous people by bringing about this friendship where Clark's secret is known but not betrayed...Alicia and only Alicia.

Plus Alicia was a vastly more likeable and loveable personality than either Lana or (ugh!) Lois. And she will always be Clark's first wedding and wife.

There can be no theft without someone being robbed, there can be no murder without someone being killed, there can be no 'betrayal' without someone being betrayed. In result, Clark has suffered no betrayal in Alicia's ploy and play for acceptance, therefore love. Being an extremely intelligent girl, she correctly apprised Chloe on one level, she did not know of Chloe's attachment to Clark.

In the end, Clark owes Alicia a word of thanks for giving him a friend like Chloe. Had it not been done so, the non-betrayal betrayal, lives of several people would have been lost as Clark and Chloe have grown close. And the person indirectly responsible for saving the lives of numerous people by bringing about this friendship where Clark's secret is known but not betrayed...Alicia and only Alicia.

Plus Alicia was a vastly more likeable and loveable personality than either Lana or (ugh!) Lois. And she will always be Clark's first wedding and wife.

shy175223

04-18-2006, 11:09 AM

IMO, there WAS betrayal, and as for the first wedding wife it wasn't legal THANK GOODNESS. If it were someone else besides Chloe it BE betrayal. If she had scarficied herself for Clark up to the very end than she would've been more likeable sorry I just don't see her that way.

Zungas

04-18-2006, 02:08 PM

More likeable than u think.

shy175223

04-18-2006, 02:33 PM

I definitely wouldve have like alot better If she had died while all through the episode , trying to protect Clark's secert BUt that didn't happen.

Mr. Wrong

04-19-2006, 07:36 AM

Articulately put SteveS. I whole heartedly agree that there was no betrayal. The offer to take Clark's secret to the grave was entirely Alicia's idea and it wasn't some oath in blood as Shy seems to think. Red Kryptonite or not, she was his first and only wife. Personally, that was the first time I have really been jealous of Clark. I also fully agree on the personality angle. She is terrific. I am sure that in other circumstances, had she lived, she would have become an excellent superhero herself. The only problem with Alicia was that the connection she had with Clark was overshadowing Lana and Lois and that would have made it tough on the writers down the road. The story line has poor Lana going in so many different directions its tough to be critical. Lois's character is still in the development stage and her relationship with Clark is very much like that of a brother and big sister. Which is more in keeping with the way they started out in the original story line. I do agree however that they don't have any romantic sparks flying between them yet so we will just have to wait and see what the writers do with it. I do commend Shy for her devotion to keeping ones word. That is an admirable trait but I think it is unfair to hold Alicia to such a high standard when it is impossible for anyone to walk a mile in her shoes. I would like also to note that the hottest kiss was between Alicia and Clark, according to the fan poll.

shy175223

04-19-2006, 11:05 AM

alright, You have guys your opinions about Alicia and I have mine and I'm not going to change that becuase of the reasons I have just stated in my postings. However I do respect yours just as I do with others in this board.

But I will say this despite What Alicia has done, I did think it was unfair that she didn't get to have a chance to proof herself in the end perhaps that is probably the characters tragedy in this.

Kryptonian Snake

04-20-2006, 11:13 PM

Mr. Wrong

04-21-2006, 08:48 AM

Give it a rest! Have you forgotten that it was Clark's decision in the elevator to reveal his secret? Alicia did not sign a contract in blood vowing to take this knowledge to her grave. Instead, she saved him from having to answer some extremely difficult questions. Where do you come off comparing this act to commiting robbery or murder. Clark did not ask her to promise not to tell anyone. He just said that he couldn't bring himself to reveal his secret and have to face the consequences. The very same consequences that she was forced to face. Even Clark didn't think it was fair that she had to face it on her own. She didn't drug Clark, she exposed the man she was infatuated with to red kryptonite to see how he would react. Even Jonathan noted that Clark must have had cetain feelings in the first place or else the red krypto would not have brought them out. Don't forget she did remove the stone before they consumated the relationship. Since when does a person in love always make what you consider ethical decisions. Have you forgotten that once Alicia had found Clark, she never even as much as looked at another man. Something neither Lana, Lois, or even Chloe can claim. All she wanted was the love, trust and support of Clark Kent. Maybe it wasn't something he was capable of offering but this is the same man that just finished telling Lana that he would love her to the day that he died, slept with her and then unceremoniously dumped her. Now she will probably end this season of by becoming pregnant by Lex Luthor. So please do not talk about unethical decisions!

Kryptonian Snake

04-21-2006, 10:14 AM

My point with the comparison is not that Alicia's actions are as bad as attempted robbery or attempted murder, but that her failure to "out" Clark doesn't diminish the fact that her intention was to expose him to the public. It's irrelevant that Clark didn't ask her to hold on to his secret. She gave her word and later broke it. I'd say the same thing if Chloe exposed Clark to Lana or anyone else. I understand Alicia's intentions and I actually agree with her statement that the only way for Clark to be accepted for who he is is to expose himself to the world. However, Clark has every right to keep his secret to himself, even if it's because he's afraid people's perceptions of him would change.

As for Clark facing the consequences Alicia faced, I'm not sure he would have. Suspiscion surrounding Alicia was there in large part because of her past attempt on Lana's life and her prior obsession with Clark rather than the fact that she could teleport. Had the events of Obsession not occurred, I doubt as many people would have suspected Alicia of attacking Lana and Jason.

As for red K, I consider it to be the equivalent of a drug because it alters Clark's mental state like many drugs alter humans' mental states. Even in the commentary for Red, the episode in which it was introduced, the producers mentioned that it was akin to a drug. It dampens Clark's inhibitions the same way alcohol would dampen a human's inhibitions. I'm also 99.9% sure Alicia knew the effect red K would have on Clark.

Also, I never claimed Clark was perfect. He's made his share of poor and/or unethical decisions. But the topic of discussion is Alicia's actions (mostly), not Clark's.

EDIT: Finally, like I said, I liked Alicia and I liked the arc with Chloe that came out of this episode. I actually think that, had she lived, she and Clark could have been a pretty good match for each other and Clark could have forgiven her actions if he found out about them, much like he forgave Chloe in season 3 for going to Lionel. Alicia might have learned to accept Clark's desire to remain hidden or Clark might have realized she was right. Their relationship could have made for a nice story arc if it led to Clark having a greater acceptance of himself.

On another note, why didn't Alicia tell Clark that she was with the sheriff the night Jason was attacked? I didn't notice it until rewatching the scene where Clark is trying to make another bracelet. That would have been an easy way to curb Clark's suspicion and get on the trail of the real attacker.

Mr. Wrong

04-22-2006, 12:43 PM

Well put Snake! Although 99.9% is pretty high considering Alicia was never around when Clark of under Red's effects as far as I know. Not only that, I hardly think its the first time someone tried to ply a potential lover with something to relax their inhibitions. I also would like to reiterate that had Alicia not been who she was, Clark would have been revealed in all his glory because of the elevator incident. Please let's remember that at this point she is not protecting Superman's secret, she is only trying to prove herself to the guy she is nuts over. Concerning why she didn't mention her visit with the Sheriff, there are a number of explanations. Firstly, she may not have known about the attack on Jason as she was elsewise detained. Secondly, she was obviously deeply hurt that Clark would doubt her word as being enough. Your analysis of what the future could have held for the two is right on the money. P.S. We can't fairly discuss Alicia's behaviour without comparing it to Clark's.

auxvis

04-23-2006, 02:10 AM

The topic brought up was whether or not Alicia betrayed Clark...YES...No matter what Clark did...no matter how "justified" Alicia may have felt or how "wronged" she felt because Clark didn't believe her...she promised him she would never reveal his secret since she knew how important it was for it not to be let out...When she promised that then that was her responsibility to keep her word...When she didn't do that then she broke her word and BETRAYED Clark's trust...

Mr. Wrong

04-24-2006, 08:01 AM

Trust is a two way street! The writers have already established that Clark's secret is no such thing, as the truth has been revealed to more individuals throughout the series than it has to anyone in the entire Superman saga. However, Alicia did provide us with the most dramatic and fulfilling revelation! I am sorry folks but I believe wholeheartedly that what goes around comes around. His SECRET ,in this Smallville venue ,seems only to protect him and manages to bring harm to others, at least on an emotional level. Betrayal is totally an inappropriate term for revealing another meteor freak amongst a plethora of likewise individuals. That was all Chloe thought he was until he reveals the truth down the road. I feel very saddened by the fact that so many out there think it is okay to speak ill of the dead. Alicia was one of the best characters to have been introduced into this series so far and all you can say about her is that she was far from perfect. Haven't you ever heard the words, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"? Well, she did not think it was important that his secret got out at all. She thought the opposite and therefore acted on her feelings. Surprise, surprise. A real woman acting on her feelings. What will them come up with next?

shy175223

04-24-2006, 03:26 PM

oh please don't make her seems like a victim here.

Look, some of us think Alicia betrayed Clark and than some of you don't . I 'm not trying to say that Clark isn't perfect. He does hi flaws but , like I said, Alicia DID go back on her word when she said she would take the secert to her grave.

BTW.. Alicia IS NOT his wife. Not only was he on RED K, but it WAS illegal show that so-called marriage does not count. IMO.

auxvis

04-25-2006, 12:34 AM

But other than Alicia who has it brought harm to? Meteor freaks that figured it out...and tried to use it for their own gain...had it coming to them

Johnathan...he CHOSE to give up his life for Clark's secret and so his was a willing choice...

So that leaves Alicia...who just like the others made a choice...Hers was to be selfish and expose Clark because she got mad...

Chloe is fine, now isn't she? Why? Because she has been loyal...You don't see her getting mad at Clark and running to expose his secret just to get a small matter of vengeance...

So don't paint Alicia as being innocent here...Does Clark have his character flaws? Absolutely...But if you had that secret you'd be hesitant about exposing it especially considering the stigma meteor freaks in Smallville get...and with all of that Alicia still wanted to ruin Clark's life by exposing it...

She may be a lot of things but a victim she is not...What she did is still wrong...Trying to ruin someone else for your own selfish desires is wrong and as far as I am concerned that puts her right up there with Lionel and Lex...

Mr. Wrong

04-25-2006, 07:35 AM

I've got news for you. There is no law in the United States that nulifies a marriage due to the influence of red krytonite! Therefore he was married. Just like even though at the time he had sex with Lana he was not his true self, he still lost his virginity! Absolutely Alicia was a victim here. She was the victim of a false accusation. Thou shall not bear false witness against thy neighbour. One of the ten commandments which is the basis for all of the laws of our civilized world today. She was wronged and she lashed out in what she felt was the only act of self preservation she could come up with. Anyone knows that when a person is drowning, you must be careful how you approach them as their instinct is to grab hold of you and pull you under in an attempt to save themselves. Nobody considers such an act as a deliberate attempt to harm another human being. You simply seem to feel a dislike for Alicia for some reason. A girl who offered up her life to protect Clark's "secret". That took more love and devotion than most people are capable of showing. You obviously weren't satisfied with that. You wanted her to die leaving no legacy at all except the fact that she would have given up the ghost while still preserving a sacred trust. Go ahead and call it an act of betrayal, at least Clark himself was able to realize that had he had the intestinal fortitude of Alicia, he would have come forware on his own and she may still be alive today. I sure hope nobody judges you so critically Shy!

shy175223

04-25-2006, 03:17 PM

Originally posted by Mr. Wrong
I've got news for you. There is no law in the United States that nulifies a marriage due to the influence of red krytonite! Therefore he was married. Just like even though at the time he had sex with Lana he was not his true self, he still lost his virginity! Absolutely Alicia was a victim here. She was the victim of a false accusation. Thou shall not bear false witness against thy neighbour. One of the ten commandments which is the basis for all of the laws of our civilized world today. She was wronged and she lashed out in what she felt was the only act of self preservation she could come up with. Anyone knows that when a person is drowning, you must be careful how you approach them as their instinct is to grab hold of you and pull you under in an attempt to save themselves. Nobody considers such an act as a deliberate attempt to harm another human being. You simply seem to feel a dislike for Alicia for some reason. A girl who offered up her life to protect Clark's "secret". That took more love and devotion than most people are capable of showing. You obviously weren't satisfied with that. You wanted her to die leaving no legacy at all except the fact that she would have given up the ghost while still preserving a sacred trust. Go ahead and call it an act of betrayal, at least Clark himself was able to realize that had he had the intestinal fortitude of Alicia, he would have come forware on his own and she may still be alive today. I sure hope nobody judges you so critically Shy!

oh pleases. of coarse there is no law due to RED K:rolleyes: Please. But there is a law in Nevada according to other posters AND Clark that the marriage was indeed NOT valid becuase of their WERE underage. THEREFORE she was NOT his Wife legally

And no she was NOT victim, I agree however that ppl were wrong in giving her in giving her a secong chance but, like I said she did betray Clark, And Clark said that before he found out that Alicia had ratted him out. And no I certianly don't want her to die> In fact I felt bad that she had to die. But as usual you want to make her seem like she did Clark favor by going back on her word. No, I don't hate Alicia, but I do hate what she did, right or wrong.

As for ppl judge me critically, you sure are.:(

auxvis

04-25-2006, 07:12 PM

First they were underage...second it was annulled...

I swear this is like talking to a brick wall...Some people just argue for the sake of arguing...

I don't think she was wrong for getting a second chance...but the evidence started to shift to make her look guilty...granted it was planted but any of us would have assumed the same thing...

I promise you Alicia did Clark no favors by selling him out and betraying his trust...it's like if I tell you I won't tell someone something and then you make me mad and I go tell your best friend just in spite...I have no justification for doing that and you'd be mad...

Now I will anxiously await the response to this that once again makes Alicia the victim and justifies her not being able to keep her word and selling people out...

Zungas

04-25-2006, 08:56 PM

I'm an Alicia fan and respect your opinions.

Smokethatkryptonite

04-25-2006, 09:28 PM

Alicia's reasons for revealing the secret were justified. If Clark is gonna whine about how his secret hurts people it's better that people know,so he can stop whining.

auxvis

04-26-2006, 12:17 AM

I don't hate Alicia or anything...all I am saying is that she was not justified in revealing his secret...

If she hadn't given her word to not reveal the secret that would be one thing...but she promised she wouldn't sell him out...and then did

Mr. Wrong

04-26-2006, 06:48 AM

Let us deal with this underage matter briefly. How did they manage to get married without showing identification in the first place? Unless it is consumated any marriage can be annulled. I do not dispute that fact that they were no longer man and wife, simply that they did get married. Even his parents were vividly aware of that fact. Talking about a brick wall, whenever someone vehemently disagrees with your analysis of a situation and says so, you accuse them of being argumentative. That's typical! I just want to know what gives you people the right to declare whether or not Alicia's action were a betrayal of anything. I know, the fact tha we are alive and she is not! She made her promise to Clark with the understanding that it was a two way street. But I guess that since Clark is an alien to our planet, he is entitled to special dispensation. Funny how all of the regulars are aloud to do the wrong thing for the right reasons. I am definitely going to be a brick wall here! I guess I do love to argue. Especially when I know I'm in the right!

shy175223

04-26-2006, 06:55 AM

Originally posted by Mr. Wrong
Let us deal with this underage matter briefly. How did they manage to get married without showing identification in the first place? Unless it is consumated any marriage can be annulled. I do not dispute that fact that they were no longer man and wife, simply that they did get married. Even his parents were vividly aware of that fact. Talking about a brick wall, whenever someone vehemently disagrees with your analysis of a situation and says so, you accuse them of being argumentative. That's typical! I just want to know what gives you people the right to declare whether or not Alicia's action were a betrayal of anything. I know, the fact tha we are alive and she is not! She made her promise to Clark with the understanding that it was a two way street. But I guess that since Clark is an alien to our planet, he is entitled to special dispensation. Funny how all of the regulars are aloud to do the wrong thing for the right reasons. I am definitely going to be a brick wall here! I guess I do love to argue. Especially when I know I'm in the right!

Not to put you down or anything, Mr. Wrong,but that is your opinion. Even I don't state that my opinions as fact that way.

bongoboy

04-26-2006, 10:31 AM

I just checked the Nevada legal age for marriage and it is 18 for both parties. How old were the characters in this episode? I thought they were 16 in season 1.
Thanks.

shy175223

04-26-2006, 10:53 AM

Well, I think they were at least 17. Clark was 15 in season 1.

auxvis

04-26-2006, 12:14 PM

I agree...the reason I said it is like talking to a brick wall is because you are passing your opinion off as factual information... Granted this whole topic is based in opinion...It is my opinion that she was in the wrong...it is yours that she wasn't...that is fine... But just don't sit here and try to insult those of us who don't agree and pass your opinion off as "facts"

and I will concede that we are all argumentative...not just you

bongoboy

04-26-2006, 12:52 PM

Originally posted by shy175223
Well, I think they were at least 17. Clark was 15 in season 1.

Cheers. Many thanks.

So would they be 18 in season 4?

Mr. Wrong

04-26-2006, 01:35 PM

Oh yes you do Shy! At least I make an attempt to explain my reasoning with the Alicia matter. You simply state, she betrayed him and that is all there is to it. Never mind any extenuating circumstances. You have decided what is right or wrong. I figured since you were being so closed minded on the matter that I would be equally as obstinate! I'd rather focus on the good instead of being judgmental.
Re: Age
I assume that since the quarterback had already joined the army and died before we met Alicia, that Clark should at least be 18 by now. We have been led to believe that Clark has been at drinking age for at least a season so unless they are letting 17 year olds drink in the States I would again assume that he would have had to show his driver's license in the first place in order to get a marriage license, at least that would seem logical to me. However, all that is irrelevant because they got it annulled anyway. The point was that getting married was Clark's idea not Alicia's. She was really only hoping to get Clark to free himself of his inhibitions and focus his attention on her. Definitely not a lady like manoeveur I'll admit, but I don't think she was prepared for the reaction she got from the Red K. My main point through all of this has been that given the same powers in the same circumstances, 99.9% of the people out there would have behaved the same way as Alicia did. I seriously doubt that many would have taken a bullet simply to protect a secret that's for sure. Unfortunately, several of you seem to think that doesn't count for much. I would like to be privy to the great sacrifices that you have made in like manner.

Kryptonian Snake

04-26-2006, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by bongoboy
Cheers. Many thanks.

So would they be 18 in season 4?
Clark's birthday would have occurred around episode 21 or so. The date was first mentioned in Calling (episode 22 from season 2) and there was a deleted scene that showed a birthday party for Clark in Talisman (episode 21 in season 3). Clark would have been 17 when he married Alicia in Las Vegas.

bongoboy

04-26-2006, 01:53 PM

Okay, that's great. Thanks for taking the time to fill me in. :)

Smokethatkryptonite

04-26-2006, 06:06 PM

Oh god I just watched this episode again last night on my DVDs and I just realized that out of the main characters the only one who I could stand in this episode was Clark!

Lex-Barely in the episode was barely there
The Kents-Filthy Hypocrites
Lois - Smart @$$
Chloe -Was a little annyoing till after Alicia revealed the secret
Lana- Acted like a total b*tch
Jason-Was barely there but in a deleted scene he acted like a @$$ to Alicia

shy175223

04-26-2006, 09:22 PM

Originally posted by Mr. Wrong
Oh yes you do Shy! At least I make an attempt to explain my reasoning with the Alicia matter. You simply state, she betrayed him and that is all there is to it. Never mind any extenuating circumstances. You have decided what is right or wrong. I figured since you were being so closed minded on the matter that I would be equally as obstinate! I'd rather focus on the good instead of being judgmental.
Re: Age
I assume that since the quarterback had already joined the army and died before we met Alicia, that Clark should at least be 18 by now. We have been led to believe that Clark has been at drinking age for at least a season so unless they are letting 17 year olds drink in the States I would again assume that he would have had to show his driver's license in the first place in order to get a marriage license, at least that would seem logical to me. However, all that is irrelevant because they got it annulled anyway. The point was that getting married was Clark's idea not Alicia's. She was really only hoping to get Clark to free himself of his inhibitions and focus his attention on her. Definitely not a lady like manoeveur I'll admit, but I don't think she was prepared for the reaction she got from the Red K. My main point through all of this has been that given the same powers in the same circumstances, 99.9% of the people out there would have behaved the same way as Alicia did. I seriously doubt that many would have taken a bullet simply to protect a secret that's for sure. Unfortunately, several of you seem to think that doesn't count for much. I would like to be privy to the great sacrifices that you have made in like manner.

No I do noT! And I 've never had insulted you just like have just me in this board. I simply stated exaclty my were my opinions as they were so many times. But you just want be right on this matter just as you have just stated. Nor I'am a close-minded . And HAS been explained on the Alicia's betrayal sooo many times before, you just want so see Alicia with rose-colored glasses.

First all, Clark wasn't really himself as you should know when he made that decision to get married, Why do you think Alicia toolk the necklace in the first place cause she wanted all of him. As for her not knowing about what affect it would happen. She state that she knew everything about him. Otherwise she woouldn't have gone straight to Chloe's drawer and stoled it.

And He was 17 years of age NOT 18. He would have turned 18 after this had happened.

I am going to say a few things here. I have never ever insulted you at all. Mr Wrong, they way you just did me. I have respected your opinions on the subject, but it appears that YOU just want to be right on this instead of hearing others opinions including mine. Now I may like what others say about other subject and they have stated their opinions, and I'm not the only one who feels this way about Alicia's betrayal with Clark, but I have NEVER insulted them just because I do not agree with their way of thinking. No I will say no more because this definitley NOT the subject to discuss this,.

Mr. Wrong

04-27-2006, 06:48 AM

Like I said before his so called age is of no consequence. Especially since we have no idea of when his actually birthday was in the first place. ( it took place on Krypton remember?) The point I was trying to make was that unless they provided the magistrate with false i.d., they both must have been old enough to get legally married in Nevada!

shy175223

04-27-2006, 06:56 AM

Originally posted by Mr. Wrong
Like I said before his so called age is of no consequence. Especially since we have no idea of when his actually birthday was in the first place. ( it took place on Krypton remember?) The point I was trying to make was that unless they provided the magistrate with false i.d., they both must have been old enough to get legally married in Nevada!

Than knowing that Clark wasn't himself he could've but like I said IMO, he was 17 therefore the marriage was NOT real or legal. THAT MY OPINION. okay.

Mr. Wrong

04-27-2006, 07:07 AM

Strange how some people equate a difference of opinion as an insult. I apologize Shy if I stated anything that seemed to close to the truth. You keep insisting that what Alicia did was totally unacceptable and you refuse to consider any arguments to the contrary. I just wonder how you can use the term betrayal for someone who changes their mind. Have you ever heard the words " Love, Honor, and Cherish as long as we both shall live. Those or similar words are spoken when most couples get married. Over 50% of marriages end in divorce making the promise made before God, null and void. I hope you don't brand all divorcees as Betrayers of their word! Smallville is a show that is made better by each and every defining moment in the saga of Superman. Alicia's revelation was one of those moments. One which I have enjoyed watching on half a dozen occasions. I am sorry that there is anyone out there who sees it in such a negative light.

shy175223

04-27-2006, 07:28 AM

Originally posted by Mr. Wrong
Strange how some people equate a difference of opinion as an insult. I apologize Shy if I stated anything that seemed to close to the truth. You keep insisting that what Alicia did was totally unacceptable and you refuse to consider any arguments to the contrary. I just wonder how you can use the term betrayal for someone who changes their mind. Have you ever heard the words " Love, Honor, and Cherish as long as we both shall live. Those or similar words are spoken when most couples get married. Over 50% of marriages end in divorce making the promise made before God, null and void. I hope you don't brand all divorcees as Betrayers of their word! Smallville is a show that is made better by each and every defining moment in the saga of Superman. Alicia's revelation was one of those moments. One which I have enjoyed watching on half a dozen occasions. I am sorry that there is anyone out there who sees it in such a negative light.

Whatever, Mr Wrong you are again stated your opinions as fact which is not so. I never stated my opinions as truth just as you have.

As for other marriage, I'm talking about this marriage which IMO, WAS not marriage. You want to state your opinions , fine , don't state your opinions as FACT or THE TRUTH as you put it. And don't insult anyone just because they don't agree you're so-called truth

Mr. Wrong

04-27-2006, 11:14 AM

Certainly you stated your opinions as truth Shy. You just have not backed up your argument to my satisfaction. So you find me abrasive do you? Kind of like how I feel you have been toward Alicia. To my knowledge I have not stated anything as fact that I am unable to back up. I welcome anyone to correct me as they wish. I have questioned your fairness and your insight but to my knowledge I have not insulted you any more than you have me.

shy175223

04-27-2006, 11:50 AM

Originally posted by Mr. Wrong
Certainly you stated your opinions as truth Shy. You just have not backed up your argument to my satisfaction. So you find me abrasive do you? Kind of like how I feel you have been toward Alicia. To my knowledge I have not stated anything as fact that I am unable to back up. I welcome anyone to correct me as they wish. I have questioned your fairness and your insight but to my knowledge I have not insulted you any more than you have me.

Yes you have insulted me. You have insulted me which you have called me close-minded which I am not. Now I have never ever insulted you or called any names in though I should. But I have retained myself from saying so. And once agian I 've never stated MY opinions as truth as YOU have. However I will not change my views toward Alicia's actions becuase the reasons I have just stated on these post. I'm sorry you are not satisfied with any of this. We don't we just drop this because you certianly will not change your views and I will not change mine.

Mr. Wrong

04-27-2006, 01:35 PM

I understand Shy. I would give up if I were you too!

bongoboy

05-01-2006, 01:09 PM

So, what about the episode Pariah eh? :D

Mr. Wrong

05-01-2006, 01:51 PM

I thought it was an exceptional episode!

Alicia Baker

05-01-2006, 01:57 PM

Originally posted by Smokethatkryptonite
Oh god I just watched this episode again last night on my DVDs and I just realized that out of the main characters the only one who I could stand in this episode was Clark!

Lex-Barely in the episode was barely there
The Kents-Filthy Hypocrites
Lois - Smart @$$
Chloe -Was a little annyoing till after Alicia revealed the secret
Lana- Acted like a total b*tch
Jason-Was barely there but in a deleted scene he acted like a @$$ to Alicia

Agree. Hated em all, poor Alicia :(

Mr. Wrong

05-02-2006, 08:19 AM

None of the episodes with Alicia were mediocre. Love her or hate her, she brought nothing but originality to the show. Something that is sadly lacking on either the big or small screen these days. I'm not as down on the other characters as Smoke was but only because I thought Alicia's star shone so bright that the others only paled in her presence. Personally, I thought she brought the best out in Clark. Her life seemed to awaken the generally mundane loft dweller. Her death really gave Tom Welling his opportunity to do some solid acting. I was right there with him when he was throttling her murderer. His emotions were truly on his sleeve throughout all of his scenes and he made me feel he was being genuine. Regarding the other characters, this episode wasn't about Lex and the Kents were a bit harsh on Clark but I think that was mostly meant to deter the younger viewing audience from following suit. Parents are supposed to behave like parents, not simply be dismissive of the incident simply because of the adverse conditions. I definitely agree that Chloe's character was launched into a whole new venue with this episode and I think she is a perfect fit and her development is coming along nicely.
Lois is being Lois. She is supposed to have an edgy personality. Her behaviour is crucial as we already know her future so the writers are simply trying to maintain the continuity. This has to be particularly tough as Lois wasn't destined to appear in Clark's life for at least another ten years. She has proven to be an interesting and talented addition so the writers have been forced to walk a bit of a tight rope with the character and I think that so far they have done a terrific job in that regard. Concerning Jason, I always thought of the character as being nothing more than filler. The writers really never tried to give us a true slant on what made him tick.

shy175223

05-02-2006, 04:53 PM

Originally posted by Mr. Wrong
I understand Shy. I would give up if I were you too!

I'm not giving up anything, I'm just dropping this, understand.

And it doesn't mean to you win either.

Mr. Wrong

05-03-2006, 07:19 AM

You're right, I didn't win anything. I wasn't trying to. I was just defending one of the best characters to have been on the show. You were trying to demean her memory. Alicia wins, you lose!

shy175223

05-03-2006, 07:37 AM

Originally posted by Mr. Wrong
You're right, I didn't win anything. I wasn't trying to. I was just defending one of the best characters to have been on the show. You were trying to demean her memory. Alicia wins, you lose!

i understand that and like i said you didn't have get hostile just because I didn't agree with what you said about alicia. I never said I didn't like Her either just her motives and I had already stated why, too? alrright. And how can Alicia WIN anything she is just a character in a story. But I understand WHY you like her alright. And in this case if we keeping argueing like this NOBODY wins.

Mr. Wrong

05-03-2006, 12:22 PM

Fair enough. It's just that you were originally the one to get hostile when I simply stated that I liked the Alicia character and felt that she had made a necessary contribution to the show. How does Alicia win? I am almost willing to bet that the character will be resurrected in some form or another. Not unlike Elektra did from Daredevil for example. Hers was a very imaginative character and from a writer's standpoint, originality counts big time.

TKFlash

05-07-2006, 11:04 AM

That guy had cool powers, I always called him little sandman.

RedQ

05-07-2006, 02:27 PM

Originally posted by greggbray
The first time I saw Alicia's death, I almost vomitted. Literally. It was such a shock, and such an upsetting image, my stomach turned. I had to walk away from the TV set for a while. I couldn't rationalize Clark NOT killing the FOTW that did that.

But it was well done. Chloe *knew* a bit more about Clark, and Clark learned that he had to always look for the good in people, and give people the benefit of the doubt, no matter what. So, in a way, it helped his transition.

The fact he's never mentioned her again is bothersome and puzzling.... My reactions were Nooooo......!!!!! Tom Welling is BAD in actinge Sad Cry but GREAT! in ANGRY Cry. he should learn how to lament better cause it looked too much like Indicating.

I guess Alica not being metioned is something one wants to dwell on. It's not like spiderman that she is his bain of torment. Hopefuly they would mention her indirectly when the hope for trust in mankind ever gets brought up again.
Originally posted by Smokethatkryptonite
Clark's attraction to her was he could have had a truthful relationship with her which is why RedK Clark proposed because deep down Clark wants someone he can have a real relationship with. Was the Alicia argument in the show.
Originally posted by Smokethatkryptonite
I usually don't hate Lana, but in this episode she was a total b*tch Cause Lana is still traumatized victim and the uneasyness of the presence of the perpetrator is still a psychological issue.
Originally posted by shy175223
Oh yeah sure, forget the fact that she did betray Clark's trust after she sworn that she would take the secert to her grave.. pleaseee. the taking the bullet for Clark is because Alicia knows she is the one that did the err and Clark is still has Trust on Alicia and she kept his because she knows clark kept his trust in her.

The part that flipped Alicia was when Clark lost his trust for her when she was being truthful; so she felt betrayed cause clack didn't believe her, and clak wasn't able to reconcile with her till the barn incident. this only justifies her action but rarely people keep their word when the other party betrays them.
Originally posted by shy175223
Oh pleasesss don't make her out to be some sort of saint she isn't okay and her so called upbring is no excuse IMO for her betrayal still. She went far and beyond when she took that bullet she still should've went far and beyond no matter what after that. Yes, he did reveal her secert but in her case HE HAD To. Pleasees. The woman , as Chloe has put , went all Fatal Attraction on him. whatelse is he suppose to protect his family and friends from a psycho. And hey, i'm not putting down the actress just the character. and some breath of fresh air. A fresh air of unstable behaviour and lies and betrayal Please he gets enough of that from LEx. Alicia is NOT a Saint but HUMAN! and not just an ordinary human but an Emotionally and Psychologically disturbed individual YET! She still was able to hold her own. NOW THAT IS SOMETHING!
Originally posted by SteveS
In the end, Clark owes Alicia a word of thanks for giving him a friend like Chloe. Had it not been done so, the non-betrayal betrayal, lives of several people would have been lost as Clark and Chloe have grown close. And the person indirectly responsible for saving the lives of numerous people by bringing about this friendship where Clark's secret is known but not betrayed...Alicia and only Alicia.

Plus Alicia was a vastly more likeable and loveable personality than either Lana or (ugh!) Lois. And she will always be Clark's first wedding and wife.Is also what WE & Clark would consider to be true. nicely put SteveS
Originally posted by Mr. Wrong
...Don't forget she did remove the stone before they consumated the relationship. Since when does a person in love always make what you consider ethical decisions. Have you forgotten that once Alicia had found Clark, she never even as much as looked at another man. Something neither Lana, Lois, or even Chloe can claim. All she wanted was the love, trust and support of Clark Kent...I guess this is why WE like Alicia so much because of this Purity and Devotion to Clark.
Originally posted by shy175223
oh please don't make her seems like a victim here.

Look, some of us think Alicia betrayed Clark and than some of you don't . I 'm not trying to say that Clark isn't perfect. He does hi flaws but , like I said, Alicia DID go back on her word when she said she would take the secert to her grave.

BTW.. Alicia IS NOT his wife. Not only was he on RED K, but it WAS illegal show that so-called marriage does not count. IMO. I think ALL accept that Alicia did betray Clark. others just don't see it as bad as you do cause of the situation. (there is no one type of murder.)
Originally posted by Mr. Wrong
I've got news for you. There is no law in the United States that nulifies a marriage due to the influence of red krytonite! Therefore he was married. Just like even though at the time he had sex with Lana he was not his true self, he still lost his virginity! Absolutely Alicia was a victim here. I disagree cause they never consumated their Marriage in 4.11 Unsafe (http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=2096902#post2096902). and Annulment Was NEVER even stated and made, cause it takes time; and the time frame of the episode is Not enough to process. plus I doubt Alicia would sign the papers. IF she did that would just re-enforce her sense of betrayal of clark's feelings towards her.

AGE issue:
Season 1 = Freshman year
Season 2 = Sophomore year
Season 3 = Junior year
Season 4 = Senior year
Lana was dating a Senior, Whitney, hence can sign up during war.

Originally posted by j-kent
I can't why see some of you argue with eachother about all of this...that is aggressively instead of just offering perspectives.

What I mean is you can't really justify who is right or wrong on doing what in this episode because people's sense of morality and right or wrong are all different.

What was done in the episode was done. Yes, one would say that Alicia was wrong to doubleback her word and reveal Clark's secret, however, in her perspective she felt that their was a greater good in people knowing Clark's secret just as they knew hers. I think it's safe to say that alot of people's own judgement of right or wrong can get clouded by their self-interests, or more specifically people they love. I think we can mirror that back to Clark. As he found Alicia dead he wanted to kill the FOTW, he was bound to as his vengeful love for Alicia clouded his judgement of morality.

However, this is a vital lesson for CK. In the end of the episode he said he will never forgive himself for turning against Alicia and doubting her. What makes or will strongly make Clark a superman is that he has the most unparalled sense of seeing the potential good in some of those that cross his path.

To change subjects, I thought that the FOTW even though I guess was supplemental to the plot was kind of iffy. I mean why this insignificant character go about going to extreme measures because he thought Jason and Lana's relationship was "wrong". [It just appears he was used to advanced the story to kill Alicia at the end] I also didn't get, to think logically, how that if he turned his hand into that whirlwind of transporting molecules that he could super punch Clark across the room. ??? Alicia "betrayal" is somewhat the writer's way of handing the torch to Chloe now.

Cloning is a posibilty for her comeback.

The Deleted Scene of Alicia and J.Teauge encounter should have been included to throw us off.

P.S. next thin we know there's a poll on weather Alicia was justified on her betral to clark or not?
Alicia Baker (http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=19387) is a Blasphemer! using a Lois Avatar.

Mr. Wrong

05-08-2006, 07:51 AM

I must admit, I was thoroughly shocked at her death as well. However, it made for the most dramatic episode, prior to #100 of course. I am glad to see that Alicia had a positive effect on most of the fans out there. The method I use to gauge the quality of a program is to focus on the number of times that the characters do or say something that really tugs at the ole heart strings. Alicia gave us a bucket full of those moments in fewer episodes than any other character. All the stuff that does not evoke an emotional reaction from the fans is what you all adroitly call filler. The reason Superman means so much to so many is because he constantly gives us all hope for mankind, even if it is only from a comic book perspective of the world.

ddacosta81

05-09-2006, 09:12 AM

Of all the episodes in Season 4, “Pariah” definitely had the biggest emotional impact on me. Alicia’s tragic murder, after she was framed for attacking Lana and Jason, written off by Chloe and Lois, threatened by Jason (in the deleted scenes on the DVD) and ultimately doubted by Clark was very painful to watch. Clark’s anger and despair in wake of her murder was also very moving.

What made the episode especially difficult to watch IMO was that the stigma associated with her history of mental illness still vilified her. Given the number of times that other Characters have tried to kill or harm each other while under the effects of “brainwashing” ala the “Delete” episode, witch possessions ala “Spell” or other meteor rock-inducing changes in mental state, I find it difficult stomach Alicia still being labeled a danger by the other characters. Also given that Alicia was released from Bell-Reeve (Dr. McBride’s motives for releasing her may have been suspect, but his qualifications to treat her mental illness was not) I see no reason why she would be a prime suspect, except her meteor powers.

I think Alicia’s message: that she and Clark would never truly be free in society until people accepted them for there abilities is a very valid one. Given that she was a suspect because of her powers, I can understand why she wanted Clark to go with her to the Sheriff’s office. I can also understand why she was upset with Clark when he refused to go with her, protecting his own image while leaving her to fend for herself. I think if people were enlightened to the fact that there were people like Clark doing good deeds in Smallville, it would help alleviate some of the stigma Alicia felt was associated with her having powers.

I’m not saying that the other characters in Smallville are unjustified in their distrust of people with meteor powers, a lot of these people have used there powers to do them harm. Still, it would have been beneficial for the town to have a strong counter-example in Clark (someone with special abilities who has done so much good).

Others will disagree with me, but I don’t think Alicia revealed Clark’s power’s to Chloe in order to spite him. In the Torch office and saw the Wall of Weird and her picture with the headline “Can any Prison Hold Her?” It hurt Alicia that Chloe was further promoting the town’s negative image of her. She decided to show Chloe the truth that all of the Town’s superpowered residents were not evil, that in fact her best friend right under her nose also had powers yet was such a great person. I think Alicia thought by enlightening Chloe she could use her influence as a journalist to help eliminate some of the negative stereotypes associated with people with meteor powers.

I’m not saying that Alicia DIDN’T go back on her promise to protect Clark’s secret. I’m saying IMO that she felt she could make life better for both of them by showing his reporter best friend that a person’s possession of special abilities is not cause to view them as guilty until proven innocent.

Sadly, she died before Clark could reaffirm his faith in her, and he could only regret his actions in not supporting the woman he loved.

RedQ

05-09-2006, 09:32 AM

Originally posted by ddacosta81
Others will disagree with me, but I don’t think Alicia revealed Clark’s power’s to Chloe in order to spite him. In the Torch office and saw the Wall of Weird and her picture with the headline “Can any Prison Hold Her?” It hurt Alicia that Chloe was further promoting the town’s negative image of her. She decided to show Chloe the truth that all of the Town’s superpowered residents were not evil, that in fact her best friend right under her nose also had powers yet was such a great person. I think Alicia thought by enlightening Chloe she could use her influence as a journalist to help eliminate some of the negative stereotypes associated with people with meteor powers. Alicia Dumped Chloe the responsibility of the Secrest as to mess with chloe's mind. and Alicia Might resort to killing Chloe IF she did decide to print the story. But too bad she got killed to kinow what to do.

Mr. Wrong

05-09-2006, 02:10 PM

Right on the money ddacosta! Your evaluation is both sound and relevant. You obviously have Clarks ability to find the good in a person. You touched on some of the points that I had forgotten about.

shy175223

05-09-2006, 04:08 PM

Originally posted by ddacosta81
Others will disagree with me, but I don’t think Alicia revealed Clark’s power’s to Chloe in order to spite him.

I respect your opinion and I going to get bashed AGAIN by MR. WRONG for saying this but IMO she did it out spite.

RedQ

05-09-2006, 04:54 PM

Clark or Chloe :rotfl:

ddacosta81

05-10-2006, 03:40 AM

Originally posted by shy175223
I respect your opinion and I going to get bashed AGAIN by MR. WRONG for saying this but IMO she did it out spite.

Just giving my thoughts about the episode and one of my favorite returning characters, Alicia Baker. Of course we can disagree. Character's actions are open to interpretation and we are bound to see things differently.:)

shy175223

05-10-2006, 05:54 AM

Originally posted by ddacosta81
Just giving my thoughts about the episode and one of my favorite returning characters, Alicia Baker. Of course we can disagree. Character's actions are open to interpretation and we are bound to see things differently.:)

Of coarse, Cool.:D

auxvis

05-10-2006, 06:26 AM

My question is why is it that nobody's opinion is sound and relevant if we choose not to believe that Alicia was really the helpless victim and should be considered for sainthood for her numerous charitable deeds throughout her life which can be evidenced in her few episodes on Smallville?

Just because we disagree and don't think that Alicia is the fragile victim that you portray her to be does not make our argument any less rational.

I am choosing to look at all of the facts and drawing on my own personal experiences to decide that for me, what Alicia did was wrong and unforgivable...I have tried to give the reasons behind it several times but I suppose it is not "reasonable" enough because it contradicts what certain posters here think....so be it

Mr. Wrong

05-10-2006, 02:44 PM

Wow, back the truck up there. Would you be suggesting that because I congratulated a fellow poster for stating some plausible scenarios regarding the Alicia situation that I was being unfair? Didn't you just finish declaring that what Alicia did was wrong AND unforgivable? This whole conversation started out with me simply voicing my opinion regarding one of the most unique characters that has ever been on the show and a couple of posters immediately started to trash her. Since I think that those posters are way of base in their assertions, I said as much.
I personally feel anyone who is alone against her detractors has a right to be considered fragile and should be cut some slack. Apparently, a number of posters are of the opinion that since they have judged her actions as wrong and unforgivable no one should come to her defence. Well guess what, I have a differing opinion. I do not believe there was spite in her actions. Since some posters insist on saying there was, then you had better be prepared for some of us posters to disagree. Personally, I am quite comfortable with my slant on the situation. I have never suggested any religious connotation for the character and did not proclaim any charitable deeds that should be noted. My only assertion is that I choose not to hold Alicia to a higher standard than anyone else on the show. I welcome anyones differing opinion. Indeed, there has been a couple that I did not counter, because they stated their reasoning and I can respect that. However, simply labelling someone a Betrayer without being willing to consider the whole picture is not acceptable to me sorry. When Clark was promising to love Lana forever in one episode and then changing his mind in the next I didn't hear you calling him names. Why don't you just try to be as understanding of Alicia?

LoisLane78

05-11-2006, 12:26 PM

I am new here, read this thread and felt I would like to weigh in on this discussion.

This was an interesting episode, especially since it continued with a character we had seen before (Alicia). I thought the way the writers wrote Lana and Clark's parents were a little harsh and out of character. particularily Clark's parents. They didn't grill him like that about all the really bad things he did while in Metropolis when he had been on Red K for three months. When Jonathon brought him back, they understood what the Red K did to him, that it made him a different person and they didn't punish him or ask him to explain his behavior.

Clark has saved Lana so many times that I would think she would know that he would not bring anyone around her if he thought there was a chance that person could hurt her. I thought Lana's response was understandable but a little extreme. When you trust your friends (like Clark) you need to try to trust their decisions even if you don't agree with them.

Now for Alicia. I don't blame Clark for not knowing whether to believe her after Jason's attack. I think most reasonable people would have come to the same conclusion in the same situation. IMO this did not give Alicia the right to go back on her word to Clark, when she promised that she would take his secret to the grave. If you ask me, she did some pretty crappy things to Clark for someone who claimed to have loved him. Her behavior as a whole just showed how unstable/psychotic she really was. I think it was really sad.

She admitted to Clark that she knew how the Red K would affect him, that she knew he would not commit to her otherwise unless she "drugged him" with it. This is not healthy love. She stepped in front of him to take a bullet so as to not have his secret revealed. It is clear to me that she ultimately revealed Clark's secret to Chloe out of selfish reasons. If she can take a bullet to hide his secret because she loves him so much, then she should be able to hide it (as she promised) under any circumstances.

When she set up the situation so that Chloe would see Clark use his powers, she said, "now you can use your poison pen" to expose your own friend. She fully expected Chole to expose Clark to the world, whether Clark was prepared for this or not. If you ask me, this would have been unforgivable in Clark's eyes if Chloe had printed an article and everyone found out about Clark due to Alicia breaking her word. The difference here is that Chloe has the commitment to Clark to keep his secret, whereas Alicia did not, which just shows that she did not really care how "outing" Clark would impact him, only how it would impact her. She said something about if people knew, they would accept them as a couple. However, it is clear from things she said during the show that she expected that other people would treat Clark like a freak as they were treating her and I believe she was banking on Clark being forced to want to be with her, someone who "understands" him.

I don't see how the drugging of Clark to get him to act the way she wanted and then breaking her promise to him and exposing him to the world would make Clark want to trust her and want to be with her. I think it makes her look unstable and desperate. I think that one of the things Clark appreciated most in Alicia is that in all the time she knew about his powers, she never broke her word to him and blabbed about it. She had kept his secret, which I think meant the world to him. If it hadn't mattered, he would have just marched right down to the sherriff's office and told them.

What is odd to me, and also shows how unstable she was, is when she was showing Chloe what Clark could really do, she was saying something like" when people know about Clark, then they will accept us as a couple". This really negates any thought that she went back on her word because Clark had given up on her. It's fine to think that his having doubts about her innocence gives her the excuse to expose him, but then a sane person would realize when you expose someone's most precious secret without their permission, that's the end of the trust and the end of the relationship, and she still had some odd thought that they were going to be together because she was doing that to him. Once again, THIS PROVES SHE DID THIS TO BENEFIT HERSELF AND HERSELF ONLY. SHE DID NOT DO THIS BECAUSE SHE LOVED CLARK SOOOOOOO MUCH.

I do think that the person who said that this show highlighted the stigma of mental illness was right. Alicia should have been given a chance to go back into society and not be treated like a pariah. However, it is clear from her actions maybe she was not ready to be released. Also, it seems unfair to Alicia, since she was being treated by someone who wanted a relationship with her, that alone is not healthy and I have to wonder if she had been getting the best care possible. What were this man's motivations regarding her care and the bracelet, etc?

It is interesting that after Alicia's death, Clark reconsiders his decision about not having gone to the Sheriff and exposed himself. I think this is a reflection of his feeling guilty that he could not prevent the death of someone who he had accused of being guilty and had turned out to be innocent. If not, then why didn't he choose to tell everyone his secret at this time if he feels that it is hurting poeple to not know?

Finally, I just want to say that these characters are teenagers and so they tend to do things that are immature, they sometimes act more selfishly than they might when they are older and have more experience. However, when you are in a relationship, there are things you can live with, things you can forgive and things you can't. I think Alicia crossed a line with Clark on more than one occasion. Whether it was mental health issues or desperation, it is hard to say. I'm glad people thought she was interesting and a good addition to the series, as did I.

Thank you for taking the time to read this very long posting and for realizing that this is how I see this show, this is my interpretation of what happened on this particular show.

ddacosta81

05-11-2006, 03:48 PM

Excellent post Lois Lane78. I agree with alot of what you wrote. Obviously, Alicia wouldn't have won any awards for integrity after she went back on her promise to keep his powers a secret. That being said, I wouldn't go as far to say that she was acting selfishly when she did it (inappropriate yes, but not selfish in my opinion.

I agree that it was wrong of her to reveal Clark's powers to Chloe. (I make the distinction between knowing about his powers and knowing his secret because the latter invloves more shocking details like him being the last son of Krypton who fell to earth in a rain of fire). In my opinion Alicia didn't reveal Clark's "most precious" secret to Chloe. She didn't find out until Clark told her in Arrival.

I have to point out that your Alicia quote from when she was in the car with Chloe is innacurate. What she said was:

"Once you see this, you'll understand. Then Clark can be who he really is and you can use that poison pen of yours to enlighten Smallville for a change."

Alicia made no reference to her relationship with Clark or that having Chloe print an article about his powers would save her relationship with him. In my opinion I don't think she had some odd thought that they'd be together afterwards. Infact, she had said goodbye to him in the Loft after their last argument.

I agree with your agrument that Alicia's betrayal of his trust would be grounds for him ending their relationship, but one could argue that she had already broken it off at the end of their last loft scene. Based on this, and her knowledge of Clark's loneliness due to his need to hide his powers, I don't see proof that she acted to benefit herself and herself only.

Later in season 4 during "Blank", when he was releaved of his fears and inhibitions regarding his powers, he talked about not understanding why he let hinding who he was rule his life. He also said he didn't want to go back to a life that involved lying to everyone. Of course the initial reveal of his powers to Chloe should have been a choice made by Clark. And putting the burden of his secret on Chloe was wrong. But one can argue that Clark would also benefit from Chloe having a better understanding of who he really was.

I liked the point you made about the characters being teenagers and not making the most mature decisions and agree that Alicia has crossed the line with Clark more than once. I just don't think she acted selfishly during her last hours.

I enjoyed your first post and look forward to reading more of them.:)

shy175223

05-11-2006, 04:07 PM

dda costa81, I like to commend you on your post, It is also excellent. AND unlike SOME posters on this board, you were very very,respectful and were not at all hostile toward others just becuase they didn't agree with your opinions. Looking foward also to reading more of your post.

ddacosta81

05-11-2006, 04:39 PM

Originally posted by shy175223
dda costa81, I like to commend you on your post, It is also excellent. AND unlike SOME posters on this board, you were very very,respectful and were not at all hostile toward others just becuase they didn't agree with your opinions. Looking foward also to reading more of your post.

Thanks Shy175223. I've been a long-time visitor to K-site, but only recently joined the forum.

I just wish I could watch "Vessel" with you and everyone else. I'm studying overseas in London and don't even have access to a TV. I've only been able to watch the first four episodes of Season five and that was when I went back home for Christmas break.

I hate not being able to watch my favorite show.

Thank goodness for K-site, at least I won't be in the dark about what happens and can read the perspectives of posters like yourself.

Can't wait for the Season 5 DVDs!

Later :D

shy175223

05-11-2006, 04:53 PM

It will be hard to understand all that's going on even on the boardsI can imagine. BUt hopefully it will give some clues as to what's going on. Happy posting.

Mr. Wrong

05-12-2006, 07:00 AM

Welcome aboard LoisLane78. A very articulate posting. I think ddacosta81's response to you was right on the money. You stated your case regarding Alicia with honest conviction but without vehemence which I respect. I also appreciated your point regarding the fact that we are dealing with teenagers here. You made a few misquotes as ddacosta81 pointed out but they were strictly the way you saw things going down and I think it was an honest mistake. I woul be happy to admit that the Alicia/Clark relationship was less than healthy, as was her therapy. I hope you continue to give us your slant in such a lucid manner! Best of luck on your studies ddacosta81.

RedQ

05-12-2006, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by auxvis
My question is why is it that nobody's opinion is sound and relevant...
Originally posted by Mr. Wrong
Wow, back the truck up there. Would you be suggesting that because I congratulated a fellow poster for stating some plausible scenarios regarding the Alicia situation that I was being unfair? Didn't you just finish declaring that what Alicia did was wrong AND unforgivable?
This whole conversation started out with me simply voicing my opinion regarding one of the most unique characters that has ever been on the show and a couple of posters immediately started to trash her. Since I think that those posters are way of base in their assertions, I said as much.
I personally feel anyone who is alone against her detractors has a right to be considered fragile and should be cut some slack. Apparently, a number of posters are of the opinion that since they have judged her actions as wrong and unforgivable no one should come to her defence. Well guess what, I have a differing opinion.
I do not believe there was spite in her actions. Since some posters insist on saying there was, then you had better be prepared for some of us posters to disagree.
Personally, I am quite comfortable with my slant on the situation. I have never suggested any religious connotation for the character and did not proclaim any charitable deeds that should be noted. My only assertion is that I choose not to hold Alicia to a higher standard than anyone else on the show.
I welcome anyones differing opinion. Indeed, there has been a couple that I did not counter, because they stated their reasoning and I can respect that.
However, simply labelling someone a Betrayer without being willing to consider the whole picture is not acceptable to me sorry. When Clark was promising to love Lana forever in one episode and then changing his mind in the next I didn't hear you calling him names. Why don't you just try to be as understanding of Alicia? Wow! finally something Non-repetative on your replies :lol:
Originally posted by LoisLane78
I am new here, read this thread and felt I would like to weigh in on this discussion.

This was an interesting episode, especially since it continued with a character we had seen before (Alicia). I thought the way the writers wrote Lana and Clark's parents were a little harsh and out of character. particularily Clark's parents. They didn't grill him like that about all the really bad things he did while in Metropolis when he had been on Red K for three months. When Jonathon brought him back, they understood what the Red K did to him, that it made him a different person and they didn't punish him or ask him to explain his behavior.

Actually you can't say this because the Kents were harsh on Clark when he was duped by Alicia by Red-K in THIS Eps.

Clark has saved Lana so many times that I would think she would know that he would not bring anyone around her if he thought there was a chance that person could hurt her. I thought Lana's response was understandable but a little extreme. When you trust your friends (like Clark) you need to try to trust their decisions even if you don't agree with them.

Also there are alot of trust issues between CLana; hence the sensitivity of the situation is what clark failed to recognized cause he knows Alicia has changed. It's Not Extreame when you are the victim. I hope your not saying that a rape victim is not as severe as a murder survivor?

...IMO this did not give Alicia the right to go back on her word to Clark, when she promised that she would take his secret to the grave....

In the bottom of Post #110 of 126 (http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=2098469#post2098469) It's the Betrayal factor that she felt that made her drop her word.

She admitted to Clark that she knew how the Red K would affect him, that she knew he would not commit to her otherwise unless she "drugged him" with it. This is not healthy love...
I don't see how the drugging of Clark to get him to act the way she wanted and then breaking her promise to him and exposing him to the world would make Clark want to trust her and want to be with her. I think it makes her look unstable and desperate.

Alica stated her reason when she Removed the Red-K and what she believed.

When she set up the situation so that Chloe would see Clark use his powers, she said, "now you can use your poison pen" to expose your own friend. She fully expected Chole to expose Clark to the world, whether Clark was prepared for this or not. If you ask me, this would have been unforgivable in Clark's eyes if Chloe had printed an article and everyone found out about Clark due to Alicia breaking her word. The difference here is that Chloe has the commitment to Clark to keep his secret, whereas Alicia did not, which just shows that she did not really care how "outing" Clark would impact him, only how it would impact her. She said something about if people knew, they would accept them as a couple. However, it is clear from things she said during the show that she expected that other people would treat Clark like a freak as they were treating her and I believe she was banking on Clark being forced to want to be with her, someone who "understands" him.

Darn, I intend to agree with you on this one as FACT.

...She had kept his secret, which I think meant the world to him. If it hadn't mattered, he would have just marched right down to the sherriff's office and told them...

Good Question, but the Poison pen to Alica is much more effective to spread the word coupled with Chloe being Clark's friend, and the notion of ...she was saying something like" when people know about Clark, then they will accept us as a couple".

...but then a sane person would realize when you expose someone's most precious secret without their permission, that's the end of the trust and the end of the relationship, and she still had some odd thought that they were going to be together because she was doing that to him. Once again, THIS PROVES SHE DID THIS TO BENEFIT HERSELF AND HERSELF ONLY. SHE DID NOT DO THIS BECAUSE SHE LOVED CLARK SOOOOOOO MUCH.

Highly Disagree! the Benefit to herself is the LOVE for Clark that to Free Clark from his own lies and walls that Clark created in himself and HOPING! that when Clark is revealed that eventually clark will comeback to Alicia waiting for him.

I do think that the person who said that this show highlighted the stigma of mental illness was right. Alicia should have been given a chance to go back into society and not be treated like a pariah. However, it is clear from her actions maybe she was not ready to be released. Also, it seems unfair to Alicia, since she was being treated by someone who wanted a relationship with her, that alone is not healthy and I have to wonder if she had been getting the best care possible. What were this man's motivations regarding her care and the bracelet, etc?
Just that more effort was placed on Alicia by the doctor and the improper Doctor Patient relation occured. So Alicia could be mentally sane, when she got out.

It is interesting that after Alicia's death, Clark reconsiders his decision about not having gone to the Sheriff and exposed himself. I think this is a reflection of his feeling guilty that he could not prevent the death of someone who he had accused of being guilty and had turned out to be innocent. If not, then why didn't he choose to tell everyone his secret at this time if he feels that it is hurting poeple to not know?

First of All, Clark still wants to keep his own secret. and Clark only revealed his suspicion of Alicia, which was proven wrong by the sherif.

Finally, I just want to say that these characters are teenagers and so they tend to do things that are immature, they sometimes act more selfishly than they might when they are older and have more experience. However, when you are in a relationship, there are things you can live with, things you can forgive and things you can't. I think Alicia crossed a line with Clark on more than one occasion. Whether it was mental health issues or desperation, it is hard to say. I'm glad people thought she was interesting and a good addition to the series, as did I.

Bravo! exactly not to mention when people grow up they still act like children and Human Nature is Selfish

Thank you for taking the time to read this very long posting and for realizing that this is how I see this show, this is my interpretation of what happened on this particular show.Your Welcome

Mr. Wrong

05-15-2006, 08:35 AM

Now that's much better RedQ! This is what I consider sound and relevant opinion. You ask me how dare I generalize, well the simplest answer is that instead of refuting my arguments regarding the Alicia character, you, along with others, were declaring her guilty without a fair trial. Therefore you forced me to generalize to some degree since you did not present me with any rationale as to why your opinion was more appropriate than mine.
Personally, I don't know anyone, myself particularly, who has not overstepped the bounds of propriety when it comes to love. One just had to look at Tom Cruise jumping on a couch on T.V. to realize that love has a way of making us act kind of crazy. My point is, I can't categorically determine that Alicia's actions were totally wrong, so how is it that you can? Your response to LoisLane78 was far more analytical than was your response to any of my arguments. I can only assume that her opinion was closer to your own. I will continue with my opinion that Alicia was the only kryptonite affected human willing to offer up her life just to protect a secret. One that over a dozen throughout the series have already discovered. Therefore IMO, you don't dismiss the good in a person so abruptly. Especially someone who isn't around any longer.

RedQ

05-20-2006, 02:07 AM

didn't mean it that way, with the same line of what you said. ;) Unless he actually meant it. :eek:

Originally posted by Mr. Wrong Therefore IMO, you don't dismiss the good in a person so abruptly. Especially someone who isn't around any longer. NOW THIS Line of idea needs truly to be discussed!
Does One recent Flaw negate their good actions before. As one's Latest Good action negate their previous flaws?
I remember an SVU eps. about an over worked child service and all the greater good they have done gets thrown aside because they just made one simple mistake.

Does one able to Find Redemption or Comdemnation.

Mr. Wrong

05-23-2006, 08:22 AM

Fine, let's discuss Alicia's actions. She did not call up Chloe and tell her that Clark was an alien, she set up the scenario where Clark would reveal the secret on his own with Chloe as a witness. Had the the danger been real, would Clark's secret have been any less revealed? I realize that doesn't justify Alicia breaking her promise to take Clark's secret to the grave but as we have seen in Oracle, Clark is not beyond revealing his secret to save a loved one, despite who is a witness. Basically, my point is that Alicia's exposure of Clark's secret was not entirely without justification and should not have labelled her as a betrayer. I definitely believe that a person's word should be their bond but the fact is that situations alter cases. The decision to keep or break her word was entirely Alicia's and I for one am glad that she acted as she did. Without this revelation, Chloe would never have the status that she does now. Her act also magnified her importance to the whole plot line of Smallville. In other words, I don't think she should be villified in any way.

RedQ

05-23-2006, 11:42 AM

How they Judge them:
Past = 99% Good ___ Present = Bad 1% === Condemnation.
Past = 99% Evil ___ Present = Good 1% === Redemption.

People forget the past and Focus only their recent Actions and forget the past. I question the Righteousness of Each side.

I read your previous posts and I'm not arguing with your points cause i don't see any contradiction.
http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=2096902#post2096902

Mr. Wrong

05-24-2006, 08:18 AM

Judge not, lest ye yourself be judged. I believe everyone of us has a fair percentage of both good and evil. Just take a look at the Luthors. I hope my last act on earth will be one that brings about my redemption. I think most of us do. Unfortunately, it is next to impossible to go through this life without doing wrong to someone. Fortunately, T.V. gives us a format which enables us to critique the actions of others. Since they are fictional characters their actions are subject to a plethora of opinions without fear of maligning a real person. T.V. gives us fans the opportunity to be judge and jury. IMO, we humans tend to either idolize or demonize others, when in fact most of us belong somewhere in the middle. We are all capable of behaving with a loving nature one minute and despicably the next so I think it is best to measure a person's heart. Do they exude love most of the time or is hate their coin of the realm. Even though it is fantasy, IMO we should try to judge the motivation of an individual and honestly ask ourselves, "what would I do in the same situation".

Mrs Kent

05-24-2006, 08:22 AM

Alicia made a promise and broke it, she shouldn't have. Even though she didn't tell Chloe she made it so that his secret wasn't a secret anymore. Even though I felt really sorry for her being blammed for all the attacks when it was here but that creep.

Mr. Wrong

05-25-2006, 05:39 AM

Hello Mrs Kent, welcome aboard. Clark's super powers were hardly a secret as at least a dozen others have discovered them in one way or another by this point, but you are right that Alicia did break her promise. Last night I reviewed the episode where a now knowledgable Chloe guided Clark (stripped of his memory) through the re-discovery of his super powers and his identity. Without Alicia's revelation to Chloe, Clark's secret would have been toast to say the least. My point is and always has been that for an act to be considered wrong or evil, it has to have a downside. Alicia's revelation did nothing but good, ergo, breaking her promise was the best thing for all concerned IMO.

RedQ

05-27-2006, 10:43 AM

Feel about her, which points to my previous post. Make her a Pariah and unforgivable & untrustworthy of Clark's Emotions. OR Understand her and recognize that she's just HUMAN even though she's the FOTW.
Originally posted by Mr. Wrong
Judge not, lest ye yourself be judged. I believe everyone of us has a fair percentage of both good and evil. Just take a look at the Luthors. I hope my last act on earth will be one that brings about my redemption. I think most of us do.
Unfortunately, it is next to impossible to go through this life without doing wrong to someone. Fortunately, T.V. gives us a format which enables us to critique the actions of others. Since they are fictional characters their actions are subject to a plethora of opinions without fear of maligning a real person. T.V. gives us fans the opportunity to be judge and jury.
IMO, we humans tend to either idolize or demonize others, when in fact most of us belong somewhere in the middle. We are all capable of behaving with a loving nature one minute and despicably the next so I think it is best to measure a person's heart. Do they exude love most of the time or is hate their coin of the realm. Even though it is fantasy,
IMO we should try to judge the motivation of an individual and honestly ask ourselves, "what would I do in the same situation".

Mr. Wrong

05-30-2006, 08:29 AM

Why not list the promises made by Clark that he has subsequently broken due to circumstances. How about when he gave his solemn word to Jorel that he would return to the fortress in time to get his necessary indoctrination. This was a betrayal that eventually brought about the death of Jonathan, the deflowering of Lana (who didn't know he was an alien being), and left Chloe vulnerable to be discovered by Lex in the hospital.
In comparison, Alicia's so called betrayal had no adverse effects whatsoever. So if you want to do a poll about untrustworthy and unforgivable, why not do one on Clark for starters? After all, he has done a heck of a job bruising emotions with virtually every woman with whom he comes in contact. Hold on Mr. Wrong, you are forgetting that Clark is the star and our hero. You can't go down that road. Wouldn't be much of a show if the characters weren't flawed now would it? Do you still want to do a poll about Alicia? Fine! I vote that her revelation was an intregal part of the plot line that our writers have devised. One which was deliciously innovative and one that did not brand Alicia as anything but an over zealous suitor of our favourite superhero.

quietone

06-19-2006, 12:59 PM

Saw this episode for the first time yesterday (season 4 is the only season I have not seen in its entirety)

Funny beginning but very,very sad ending. My heart just went out to Clark in this episode. He is thrilled to finally be with someone who accepted him for who he is; tried to give Alicia the benefit of the doubt when others would not; defended Alicia when others were ready to burn her at the stake;felt betrayed when he thought Alicia had lied to him, then ultimately heartbroken and guilt ridden when the truth was revealed and he found Alicia dead. So much emotion in less than an hour. TW did well.

Also loved 'big sister' Lois in this epi. She said some very thoughtful things to Chloe and Clark.

Mr. Wrong

06-20-2006, 07:21 AM

Right on the money quietone. Definitely TW's best work to that point. I to am impressed at how well Lois is developing. She shows wisdom beyond her years. Her brash cockiness has mellowed somewhat and her incitefulness has enhanced her attractiveness. I to watched both episodes again on the weekend and enjoyed them immensely.

that girl

06-22-2006, 04:21 PM

Originally posted by LoisLane78
I am new here, read this thread and felt I would like to weigh in on this discussion.

This was an interesting episode, especially since it continued with a character we had seen before (Alicia). I thought the way the writers wrote Lana and Clark's parents were a little harsh and out of character. particularily Clark's parents. They didn't grill him like that about all the really bad things he did while in Metropolis when he had been on Red K for three months. When Jonathon brought him back, they understood what the Red K did to him, that it made him a different person and they didn't punish him or ask him to explain his behavior.

Clark has saved Lana so many times that I would think she would know that he would not bring anyone around her if he thought there was a chance that person could hurt her. I thought Lana's response was understandable but a little extreme. When you trust your friends (like Clark) you need to try to trust their decisions even if you don't agree with them.

Now for Alicia. I don't blame Clark for not knowing whether to believe her after Jason's attack. I think most reasonable people would have come to the same conclusion in the same situation. IMO this did not give Alicia the right to go back on her word to Clark, when she promised that she would take his secret to the grave. If you ask me, she did some pretty crappy things to Clark for someone who claimed to have loved him. Her behavior as a whole just showed how unstable/psychotic she really was. I think it was really sad.

She admitted to Clark that she knew how the Red K would affect him, that she knew he would not commit to her otherwise unless she "drugged him" with it. This is not healthy love. She stepped in front of him to take a bullet so as to not have his secret revealed. It is clear to me that she ultimately revealed Clark's secret to Chloe out of selfish reasons. If she can take a bullet to hide his secret because she loves him so much, then she should be able to hide it (as she promised) under any circumstances.

When she set up the situation so that Chloe would see Clark use his powers, she said, "now you can use your poison pen" to expose your own friend. She fully expected Chole to expose Clark to the world, whether Clark was prepared for this or not. If you ask me, this would have been unforgivable in Clark's eyes if Chloe had printed an article and everyone found out about Clark due to Alicia breaking her word. The difference here is that Chloe has the commitment to Clark to keep his secret, whereas Alicia did not, which just shows that she did not really care how "outing" Clark would impact him, only how it would impact her. She said something about if people knew, they would accept them as a couple. However, it is clear from things she said during the show that she expected that other people would treat Clark like a freak as they were treating her and I believe she was banking on Clark being forced to want to be with her, someone who "understands" him.

I don't see how the drugging of Clark to get him to act the way she wanted and then breaking her promise to him and exposing him to the world would make Clark want to trust her and want to be with her. I think it makes her look unstable and desperate. I think that one of the things Clark appreciated most in Alicia is that in all the time she knew about his powers, she never broke her word to him and blabbed about it. She had kept his secret, which I think meant the world to him. If it hadn't mattered, he would have just marched right down to the sherriff's office and told them.

What is odd to me, and also shows how unstable she was, is when she was showing Chloe what Clark could really do, she was saying something like" when people know about Clark, then they will accept us as a couple". This really negates any thought that she went back on her word because Clark had given up on her. It's fine to think that his having doubts about her innocence gives her the excuse to expose him, but then a sane person would realize when you expose someone's most precious secret without their permission, that's the end of the trust and the end of the relationship, and she still had some odd thought that they were going to be together because she was doing that to him. Once again, THIS PROVES SHE DID THIS TO BENEFIT HERSELF AND HERSELF ONLY. SHE DID NOT DO THIS BECAUSE SHE LOVED CLARK SOOOOOOO MUCH.

I do think that the person who said that this show highlighted the stigma of mental illness was right. Alicia should have been given a chance to go back into society and not be treated like a pariah. However, it is clear from her actions maybe she was not ready to be released. Also, it seems unfair to Alicia, since she was being treated by someone who wanted a relationship with her, that alone is not healthy and I have to wonder if she had been getting the best care possible. What were this man's motivations regarding her care and the bracelet, etc?

It is interesting that after Alicia's death, Clark reconsiders his decision about not having gone to the Sheriff and exposed himself. I think this is a reflection of his feeling guilty that he could not prevent the death of someone who he had accused of being guilty and had turned out to be innocent. If not, then why didn't he choose to tell everyone his secret at this time if he feels that it is hurting poeple to not know?

Finally, I just want to say that these characters are teenagers and so they tend to do things that are immature, they sometimes act more selfishly than they might when they are older and have more experience. However, when you are in a relationship, there are things you can live with, things you can forgive and things you can't. I think Alicia crossed a line with Clark on more than one occasion. Whether it was mental health issues or desperation, it is hard to say. I'm glad people thought she was interesting and a good addition to the series, as did I.

Thank you for taking the time to read this very long posting and for realizing that this is how I see this show, this is my interpretation of what happened on this particular show.

wow, i agree with everything you said in this post LoisLane78. This includes the bit about Alicia acting out of selfishness. Unless I am going crazy, she implied several times during the episode that she was telling Chloe so that Chloe would write an article on Clark and people would see him for who he "really is" and everyone would lay off them as a couple and they could be together. If you look in the leaflet of the S4 DVDs, the write-up of this episode says something like (this may not be an exact quote) "Would life be better for Clark and Alicia if everyone knew Clark's secret?" But that's just my opinion and if the rest of you don't see it that way, what can I do?

Mr. Wrong

06-23-2006, 07:36 AM

Not bad That Girl. However, like several others you have tended to leave out some pertinent factors. Although Alicia says she knows how Clarke would react under Red K influence, we are not given any explanation of how this could possibly be so. Secondly, when she gave him the necklace it was out of desperation because it was the only way she could continue to see the man she loved as he had already said he wouldn't run away to California with her. Thirdly, getting married was entirely Clarke's idea. Fourthly, she revealed her deception before consumating their marriage and that is why Clarke later said that the marriage had been illegal. Having confessed her deception she begged his forgiveness but was willing to walk away as she knew that what she had done was not right. Please stop me when I get to where she starts acting like an insane person.
Clark was the one that decided to continue their relationship. I fully agree that the writers put an unusual edginess to the Kents' reaction to the whole matter but I guess that they were trying to get it across that it was an unsatisfactory relationship for their son to have. Please explain to me how someone who has only the power of teleportation is able to remain invisible while they are attacking someone. Am I the only one here that questions Alicia's capability of physically causing a karate expert and an ex football jock, any harm with only a scarf as a weapon?
Chloe herself admits to having a poison pen when she finally lets Clark know that she knows all about him. Alicia was just asking her to use it against her best friend for a change instead of on her, as she has likely been doing, since everyone in Smallville believed her to be guilty. Don't forget in Smallville, Chloe is the media. Everyone keeps saying Alicia was crazy but how do you define sanity without any legitimate comparison. No one else has the ability to teleport. Frankly, for a teenager, I think she is remarkably grounded. Forgive me for repeating what I have said in the past but everyone seems to follow the same tract. Alicia deceives Clark but confesses even though she knows that doing so will cost her the man she loves. Doesn't Clark (a season or so later) conveniently decides not to tell Lana of his alien status so that he can finally have her totally, promising to love her forever and then doing an about face a few episodes later. Isn't that a bit of a double standard? Clark said it all to her killer after vanquishing him. " I loved her and you took that away from me",. Ditto Clark, ditto.

SteveS

06-23-2006, 10:32 AM

Very nicely done. The people who leave out the pertinent factors do it on purpose and the reason why is obvious. I had similar debates when the episode happened and noted the same deletion of important points combined with misconstruing others. Alicia's attractness as a person and as a personality trying to change herself must be very threatening to these people.

The fact the Alicia is still talked about after a year or two tells you how much she impressed many and terrified a few.

Kryptonian Snake

06-23-2006, 03:33 PM

Originally posted by Mr. Wrong
Please explain to me how someone who has only the power of teleportation is able to remain invisible while they are attacking someone. Am I the only one here that questions Alicia's capability of physically causing a karate expert and an ex football jock, any harm with only a scarf as a weapon?
There's no reason Alicia would have had to remain invisible to attack Lana since Lana had no way to turn around to see her attacker. By the time Jason kicked the door down, Lana was already unconscious and the assailant was gone. As for Jason, I'd agree with you. I just re-watched the scene and Jason is still being strangled when Clark punched through the window and it didn't look like Clark saw anyone in the back seat. If the guy could remain unseen when he attacked his victims, why wouldn't he just finish the job and kill Jason? I guess that's just another plot hole.

Welling_is_pretty

06-24-2006, 08:45 PM

*jumping into the debate with what will probably be an unpopular post*
Ok, I didn't like Pariah and I've never really understood the adoration that Alicia gets.
First Pariah:
Ok, Suddenly Clark and Alicia show up and are obviously a couple. Yet, last episode Clark made it clear that he and Alicia could never be together. What's up with that?
Lana is a total jerk in this episode. yeah, Alicia tried to kill her but shouldn't she trust Clark's judgement more than this?
THen when Alicia is accused Lana and Jason suggest that no one else could have done this. Could it perhaps be any one of the 5 billion Kryptomutants running around Smallville? Perhaps one with a power like the boy who could turn invisible, the one who could turn into water or whatever and the telekinetic?! Sheesh!
Clark is willing to defend Alicia until it seems she did do it. This is plausible. She's lied to him before.
Alicia goes 'bad' again and shows Chloe the truth.
This has always really bugged me. Chloe looks so shocked! She's an investigative reporter who only a few episodes back mentioned that there's always been something odd/different about Clark. It's fairly obvious that she is not 'galactically stupid' like Lois will be later and that she might even have started putting 2 and 2 together. So why does she look so stunned when she sees Clark use his powers?
Also, shouldn't she know that CLark is not a meteor mutant? All these people with powers have only ONE power, Clark has more (and Chloe saw him use both the strength and the speed!). Also, none of the rest of them get sick around the Green K and while Chloe did not see that right then I'm pretty sure she's been around when Clark has been exposed before.
I refuse to believe that Chloe would be that blindsided by what she saw.
The FoTW was pretty lame. A bad version of the Sandman (a Marvel comics villian).
Clark's reaction to Alicia's death....I thought it was pretty bad. Tommy tried to save it but it was badly written (when he was screaming 'noooo!' all I was thinking was 'Vader? Is that you?' which is not what you want running through your mind!).
When he goes to confront the villian he's ready to kill and he says he loved Alicia but I never saw evidence of that in any of the previous episodes. Now all of a sudden he loves her? WTF?
Best moment of it all is Clark's guilt in the barn. (hey, he should feel guilty for doubting her.) And yet I was thinking 'why isn't he angry at his parents?' and 'why haven't they apologized for how they treated Alicia?'.
I also hate how Alicia dies and Clark seemingly forgets about her in the next few episodes and goes back to being stuck on Lana. So much for 'loving Alicia'.

*whew*
Now, about Alicia:
I love her powers, let me say that right off. The teleporters have always been cool to me. It's also a great special effect.
So she goes all psycho and then gets better then lies and cheats and drugs Clark, is a half step away from 'date raping' him (Red K has been analogist to a drug and last I looked most date rapists drugged their victims) then decides she wants to have an honest relationship with him and takes the Red K away? And Clark loves her, why again?
Ok, later she apologizes and Clark, being the Superman to be, gives her a second chance. Great, wonderful, good. Very Clark.
Then when he refuses to 'come out of the closet' with her she exposes his secret to a reporter she thinks writes 'poison pen' articles.
Is this the action of a woman in love, who would do anything to protect the man she loves?
Not in my book.
Alicia had a great intro a decent middle and a sucky ending, to me. And while it was great for Clark to have a girlfriend who knew his secrets and had powers too, I'd prefer that she not be crazy.

*closes post and waits for the mud slinging to begin*

Kryptonian Snake

06-24-2006, 09:17 PM

Originally posted by Welling_is_pretty
Also, shouldn't she know that CLark is not a meteor mutant? All these people with powers have only ONE power, Clark has more (and Chloe saw him use both the strength and the speed!). Also, none of the rest of them get sick around the Green K and while Chloe did not see that right then I'm pretty sure she's been around when Clark has been exposed before.
I refuse to believe that Chloe would be that blindsided by what she saw.
There have been a few meteor mutants with more than one power. Emily Dinsmore could walk through walls and had superspeed, and Tina Greer had enhanced strength in addition to her shapeshifting ability. I do agree, though, that Chloe shouldn't have been so shocked about Clark's powers considering her comments at the end of Scared. It's also a little odd that Chloe jumped to conclusions about Alicia like the rest of the town without any attempt to investigate. Normally, even when she doubts Clark, she indulges his hunches and investigates anyway. In Heat, for example, she laughed at the idea that Desiree would try to seduce Clark, but she still dug up information anyway. In this episode, she did the exact opposite.

Welling_is_pretty

06-24-2006, 09:20 PM

Originally posted by Kryptonian Snake
There have been a few meteor mutants with more than one power. Emily Dinsmore could walk through walls and had superspeed, and Tina Greer had enhanced strength in addition to her shapeshifting ability. I do agree, though, that Chloe shouldn't have been so shocked about Clark's powers considering her comments at the end of Scared. It's also a little odd that Chloe jumped to conclusions about Alicia like the rest of the town without any attempt to investigate. Normally, even when she doubts Clark, she indulges his hunches and investigates anyway. In Heat, for example, she laughed at the idea that Desiree would try to seduce Clark, but she still dug up information anyway. In this episode, she did the exact opposite.
I discounted Emily being able to walk through walls since she had superspeed (I figured it was a 'Flash' kinda thing) but I forgot about Tina's strength. Good point.
And yeah, I was surprised about Chloe too. She does usually undulge him by at least checking stuff out, doesn't she? She's another one who you would think would trust his judgement. How many times does he have to be right/save these girls before they stop treating him like that?

Mr. Wrong

06-26-2006, 07:31 AM

I think you missed the point a bit Snake. The power to teleport did not give Alicia the option to be invisible and still maintain a physical presence capable of attacking someone. Not to mention that Sarah Carter must weigh about 100 soaking wet. I doubt she could give Chloe a hard time in a fight let alone Lana. Unless she blind sided her again. She could never have done anything significant to Jason who has been tackled from behind by 200lb. linebackers. No mudslinging today W is P, you did nothing but state your feelings without any cheapshots. I do marvel however, how most of you ladies tend to dislike Alicia. I can't help but wonder if its not because she has so much chemistry with Clark and you harbour a bit of jealousy. Please lets remember again that taking off to get married and have sex was
Clark's idea, not Alicia's. Who was just hoping to get Clark to shed his inhibitions with the Red K and maybe get him to go on the lam with her. So, almost date rape, is really a far stretch. I was really pleased to see some of you have clued into how lame Chloe's shock is but the writers just wanted some dramatic effect. After all, she if far too sharp not to have figured out that Clark was no mere mortal. Weren't over a dozen others aware of Clark's powers by know? Mind you, most have moved on, died, or are inhabiting Bell Reeve. However, most still feel that Alicia's demonstration to Chloe, is a glowing betrayal of our hero. Wake up people. Every mutant that we have seen so far, have been made aware of Clark's super powers and not in any guise such as Superboy. He only keeps the truth away from the "normal" folk. Wasn't there supposed to be quid pro quo between Clark and Alicia. Didn't he reveal her secret first? I guess you folks don't count that so I shouldn't open up that can of worms. She was willing to takes a bullet to protect his secret, but just let her endanger our Lana and all of a sudden she is outted. I am sorry folks. I have watched every episode with Alicia in it at least 3 times and although she is not flawless by any means, I am hard pressed to think of any of my male friends who wouldn't love to have her for a girlfriend. You may think she was crazy but I just think she was misguided. Deep down so did Clark.

Kryptonian Snake

06-26-2006, 08:07 AM

Originally posted by Mr. Wrong
I think you missed the point a bit Snake. The power to teleport did not give Alicia the option to be invisible and still maintain a physical presence capable of attacking someone. Not to mention that Sarah Carter must weigh about 100 soaking wet. I doubt she could give Chloe a hard time in a fight let alone Lana. Unless she blind sided her again. She could never have done anything significant to Jason who has been tackled from behind by 200lb. linebackers.
But Alicia did blindside them. There was not time for Lana, in the middle of a shower, to react to her attacker. Before she knew what hit her she was being suffocated by the shower curtain. The same goes for Jason. He was sitting in his car when he got strangled by Alicia's scarf. The fact that he was 200lbs was irrelevant unless that 200lbs was in his arms (so he could pull the scarf away from his throat). There have been cases of men getting attacked and killed by women, so it's not as if physical size automatically means a man will have no problem defending himself against a sneak attack from a woman. Heck, I've had buddies that were my size or smaller sneak up on me and put me in a chokehold and if they had been real attackers they could have snapped my neck in a second. The element of surprise often trumps physical size or knowledge of martial arts/self-defense techniques.

RedDwarfette

06-27-2006, 04:01 AM

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by Mr. Wrong: I do marvel however, how most of you ladies tend to dislike Alicia. I can't help but wonder if its not because she has so much chemistry with Clark and you harbour a bit of jealousy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, men can come to a completely unbiased understanding of a beautiful female character but women are unable to? I don't think it is fair to automatically assume that if a female fan is dissatisfied with a performance by a female actress or dislike the character they play they must be jealous of them. Oh yes, I want Clark's babies - out of my way Lana, Lois and Chloe! ::catfight breaks out:: :rolleyes: Why does this comment never get levelled at male fans? I marvel at that. I'm sorry to get off topic, but this issue really bugs me.

The reason I personally find the Alicia character lacking is because of her actions. She was messed up and she started dating the object of her obssession for a second time. Not healthy by any means. Previously, she attempted to kill people, drugged Clark and married him knowing that he was under the influence of a substance that made him act out of character. Maybe if her character had of had a bit more time to develop I could have felt more sympathy for her demise. Frankly, it came as a relief. Otherwise, I enjoyed the episode :p

Mr. Wrong

06-27-2006, 11:34 AM

OK Snake, you're first. There is no logic in a petit young woman physically attacking anyone without a suitable weapon. Let alone a woman capable of procurring any kind of weapon that she wanted in a matter of seconds. Yet we are supposed to believe that not only is Alicia crazy but she is monumentally stupid as well. Let's not forget that the writers have to paint Alicia in a bad light in order to move onward with Lana and eventually Lois. Otherwise the Alicia character would be just to close to being a perfect fit with Clark. Also, I never said that Jason was 200lbs., I meant that he would have been used to being grabbed from behind as a football player and it is very unlikely that a young lady with a scarf would pose much of a threat. Now for Dwarfette.
I've yet to encounter any male posters willing to debate the topic. Some have said outright that they didn't care for Alicia but they didn't get bent out of shape when I countered their objections to her. You have only to check the poll regarding the sexiest moment in Smallville to discover that it was between Alicia and Clark. The writers had to work fast to nip that relationship in the bud as the chemistry between them was obvious. As for Alicia's actions being messed up, I have yet to meet anyone who doesn't look to their own selfish interests from time to time in a relationship. Its unfortunately human nature. In fairness to you, most of us guys would react the same as you if the roles were reversed. I don't think there is anything wrong with people disliking Alicia. I do get preturbed when she is judged unfairly. By that I mean, not to the same standards as we judge say, Clark. I think we have had more than our fair share of wicked females showing their talons in Smallville. I don't happen to think Alicia was one of them.

shy175223

06-27-2006, 04:18 PM

Originally posted by RedDwarfette
So, men can come to a completely unbiased understanding of a beautiful female character but women are unable to? I don't think it is fair to automatically assume that if a female fan is dissatisfied with a performance by a female actress or dislike the character they play they must be jealous of them. Oh yes, I want Clark's babies - out of my way Lana, Lois and Chloe! ::catfight breaks out:: :rolleyes: Why does this comment never get levelled at male fans? I marvel at that. I'm sorry to get off topic, but this issue really bugs me.

The reason I personally find the Alicia character lacking is because of her actions. She was messed up and she started dating the object of her obssession for a second time. Not healthy by any means. Previously, she attempted to kill people, drugged Clark and married him knowing that he was under the influence of a substance that made him act out of character. Maybe if her character had of had a bit more time to develop I could have felt more sympathy for her demise. Frankly, it came as a relief. Otherwise, I enjoyed the episode :p

I'm going to get verbally get my butt kick by Mr. Wrong for this biut Red Dwarfette, I want you to know that you are not the only one who feels thi s way female/male and I completely agree with your statment.

RedDwarfette

06-27-2006, 10:28 PM

Posted by Mr. Wrong: I've yet to encounter any male posters willing to debate the topic. Some have said outright that they didn't care for Alicia but they didn't get bent out of shape when I countered their objections to her. You have only to check the poll regarding the sexiest moment in Smallville to discover that it was between Alicia and Clark. The writers had to work fast to nip that relationship in the bud as the chemistry between them was obvious. As for Alicia's actions being messed up, I have yet to meet anyone who doesn't look to their own selfish interests from time to time in a relationship. Its unfortunately human nature. In fairness to you, most of us guys would react the same as you if the roles were reversed. I don't think there is anything wrong with people disliking Alicia. I do get preturbed when she is judged unfairly. By that I mean, not to the same standards as we judge say, Clark. I think we have had more than our fair share of wicked females showing their talons in Smallville. I don't happen to think Alicia was one of them. If other fans like or love Alicia, I have no objection. What I don't like is the implication that female posters are so blinded by an irrational jealousy of a female character/actress that their opinion is faulty. This comment seems to occur with alarming regularity in fandom and it is infuriating, to be honest. The point I'm trying to make is, when a male fan comments on disliking Clark or Lex, I don't even consider that he could be envious of the 6-pac abs or chiselled features. I assume they have a legitimate reason for their aversion, like bad plots, inconsistent characterisation, etc. until they say otherwise. As far as I'm concerned a public poll doesn't impact on how I perceive the character, even if it is about the sexiness of scantily clad actors.

In terms of Alicia, everyone makes mistakes I know. Most people however don't see attempted murder, drugging a person or marrying them under false pretences as small self interested actions. She was clearly unstable and needed help and getting romantically involved with the person who triggered this behaviour was a terrible idea. It reflected badly on Clark too, he should have been there for her as a friend and true support, not for a potential booty call. Also, Alicia willingly tried to expose Clark to the entire world [via Chloe] knowing that he didn't want his powers to be widely known. This was more than self interest, it was selfishness. Alicia cannot be judged in the same manner of Clark - he is the hero, the central character to the show, they aren't on the same level of importance. Maybe if Alicia's path of redemption arc continued, we could have seen her genuinely develop as a well rounded character, unfortunately she never had the chance.

P.S. Thanks, shy175223 :)

Kryptonian Snake

06-28-2006, 12:59 AM

Originally posted by Mr. Wrong
Also, I never said that Jason was 200lbs., I meant that he would have been used to being grabbed from behind as a football player and it is very unlikely that a young lady with a scarf would pose much of a threat.
I must have misread your post. Still, I stand by my previous statements. Playing in a football game and trying to avoid getting tackled from behind is not the same as sitting in a car trying to get out of someone's grip while being choked to death. Like I said, the element of surprise can be a valuable tool for an attacker and I don't see anything strange about the notion that Alicia could have strangled Jason with a scarf while he was sitting in his car.

Mr. Wrong

06-28-2006, 09:41 AM

Hi Shy, I've got my BK boots on. Just kidding gal, but I'm afraid you're on the wrong track regarding my motivation. To this point we have seen Clark matched up with at least three other femme fatales. All quite beautiful. The Indian girl from the caves, Kara(Supergirl), also from the cave so to speak, and the one from Hypnotic. There were others but these will do for examples. All of these girls were aware of Clarks superpowers and all were murderous and were killed off just like Alicia. None had the same chemistry that Alicia/Clark generated. The Indian girl came closest but unfortunately had very little development time. Alicia started out by protecting Clark's secret in the elevator and again when she took a bullet for him from the good doctor. Chloe is the only other non family member who would be willing to sacrifice so much for the boy of steel and that was generated specifically due to Alicia outting him to her. The very reasons you ladies seem to dislike Alicia are the ones that endear her to me. She admitted when she had done wrong and apologized as well. She didn't try to deflect the blame as so many others would. As a man I find that to be an extraordinary revelation. Dwarfette already said she would love to have TW's babies she is so smitten with him. Can you really blame Alicia because she had a shot at him and took it?

RedDwarfette

06-29-2006, 01:38 AM

Posted by Mr. Wrong: Dwarfette already said she would love to have TW's babies she is so smitten with him. First of all, sar-cas-m. I was illustrating a point. So, just to set the record straight I don't fantasise about having Clark's, TW's or Lex's babies, m'kay?
Posted by Mr. Wrong: Can you really blame Alicia because she had a shot at him and took it? Nope. I do however blame her for her psychotic breaks with reality and murderous intentions. The fact that she chose to start another relationship with Clark when she clearly wasn't emotionally or mentally stable enough yet for that type of relationship. She was insecure, needy and barely recovered from a complete breakdown and that is never a good time to get involved with someone. Why was this a good idea? Oh yes, chemistry. Well IMHO, they didn't have any more chemistry than the other beautiful women Clark's been with, less than some others even.
Posted by Mr. Wrong: The very reasons you ladies seem to dislike Alicia are the ones that endear her to me. She admitted when she had done wrong and apologized as well. She didn't try to deflect the blame as so many others would. As a man I find that to be an extraordinary revelation.That's nice, but while admiring Alicia for owning up to her sins after she's been caught is all well and good, that doesn't mean everyone else has too. Her apology to Lana bordered on ridiculous, she tried to murder the girl, for Zod's sake! It isn't too hard to understand the objections the Kent's held either, she did drug their son among other things. All in all, her apology's seemed more about her need to be accepted and be completely exonerated for the damaged she caused than her being truly remorseful.

SteveS

06-29-2006, 11:51 AM

"To err is human, to forgive divine."

Alicia committed no crimes in her last two episodes of Smallville, her crimes were the year previous. If we go through the series, we will find that most of the main characters have tried to do bodily harm to others on the show, usually under some foreign influence, only to be forgiven for such crimes when the character had the foreign influence removed and was back to their senses.

Alicia was influenced by kryptonite. She was making a sincere effort to change her life. Her apology was more real than Lois acknowledgment of her pre-judging of Alicia...and the reason that Alicia's apology was more real was that she bore the entire brunt of being deemed a 'pariah' by people like Lois.

In reality, if one follows the entire list of posts dealing with Alicia, you will find a very clear sexual divide. Females tend to hate her, combine her first and second year episodes, omit or misconstrue her actions, etc. Male posters tended to see that Alicia had the very best chemistry with Clark than anyone, see her as trying to make a change, and wonder what she could have become had the unabated prejudice of the community not deemed her a pariah and had she been allowed to grow and develop as a person.

Whatever, she still ends up as a first love and wife in the Smallville universe and provides the information that has given Clark his most dependable confidant, Chloe.

UpandAtom

06-29-2006, 01:12 PM

Then again, in "Obsession" Clark did promise to keep Alicia's secret but ended up telling his parents and Chloe (who later revealed Alicia's secret to the world). Alicia was just trying to show Clark what would happen if his secret was revealed and that's why she told Chloe. Unfortunately, her plan backfired and Chloe gave up on "the scoop of the century" and spent the rest of the season protecting Clark.

shy175223

06-29-2006, 01:33 PM

Originally posted by SteveS
Whatever, she still ends up as a first love and wife in the Smallville universe and provides the information that has given Clark his most dependable confidant, Chloe.

That is pretty much your opinion, and again the the marriage was not legal and he was on REDK but that is whole another agruement there. Nor was she his first love.

Originally posted by UpandAtom
Then again, in "Obsession" Clark did promise to keep Alicia's secret but ended up telling his parents and Chloe (who later revealed Alicia's secret to the world). Alicia was just trying to show Clark what would happen if his secret was revealed and that's why she told Chloe. Unfortunately, her plan backfired and Chloe gave up on "the scoop of the century" and spent the rest of the season protecting Clark.

That was only after Alicia started to get a little obessed with Clark that he HAD to tell his parents and Chloe.

UpandAtom

06-29-2006, 01:39 PM

Originally posted by shy175223
That was only after Alicia started to get a little obessed with Clark that he HAD to tell his parents and Chloe.

I understand that he had no choice to tell his parents, but why tell Chloe? There was no way that Chloe could've helped Clark bring Alicia to justice. And if he only wanted to set up a trap for Alicia, why not just tell Pete. By telling Chloe, he ended up ruining Alicia's life and causing the entire town to be suspicious of the meteor freaks.

shy175223

06-29-2006, 01:42 PM

UpandAtom

06-29-2006, 01:46 PM

What could Clark have wanted to know? He already knew how Alicia got his powers and how to stop her. All he needed was someone to draw him to her, and that could've easily been Pete. Telling Chloe her secret didn't serve any purpose to the story.

shy175223

06-29-2006, 01:52 PM

well, maybe , look all I can say is that he told chloe because she was a friend and he wanted to find something more about Alicia and it WAS Alicia's action that bought her down not Chloe not Clark IMO, anyway.

Kryptonian Snake

06-29-2006, 02:56 PM

Originally posted by UpandAtom
I understand that he had no choice to tell his parents, but why tell Chloe? There was no way that Chloe could've helped Clark bring Alicia to justice. And if he only wanted to set up a trap for Alicia, why not just tell Pete. By telling Chloe, he ended up ruining Alicia's life and causing the entire town to be suspicious of the meteor freaks.
I never thought of that. However, I think Alicia's life would have been ruined anyway since she she still would have probably attacked Lana and been sent to Belle Reeve. I'm also 99% sure Chloe would have still written an article about her once she was in custody. Also, Alicia was a pariah beause of her behavior and mental state more than her powers. Her powers just made her a plausible suspect for the attacks on Lana and Jason.

EDIT: I'm also pretty sure that Chloe has written articles about meteor mutants before (plenty of them, actually), so I'm not buying that exposing Alicia turned the town against them. Why wouldn't there have been hostility towards meteor mutants in seasons 1 or 2?

RedDwarfette

06-30-2006, 02:43 AM

Posted by SteveS: Alicia committed no crimes in her last two episodes of Smallville, her crimes were the year previous. These things happened in the previous episode -
1) She deliberately drugged Clark.
2) She married him while he was under the influence of a toxic substance.
I thought they stated on the show that Alicia's power were not an overnight development but that she had lived with them for a long time, and I'm sorry, but have they ever said she was influenced by Kryptonite? I thought they left it open to the assumption that she might be a meta-human. They also mentioned that she had stalked another boy before Clark, which is indicative of a destructive pattern of behaviour.
Posted by SteveS: Females tend to hate her, combine her first and second year episodes, omit or misconstrue her actions, etc. Male posters tended to see that Alicia had the very best chemistry with Clark than anyone, see her as trying to make a change, and wonder what she could have become had the unabated prejudice of the community not deemed her a pariah... I don't hate her, I just don't like her and I'm entitled to my opinion without having it completely undermined by questionable generalisations. In previous posts I have outlined the valid objections I have with her character and actions quite succinctly, without combining, misconstruing or omitting anything. Alternatively we could say those female fans are not blinded by Alicia's physical charms like their male counterparts and see her character for what it truly is. But sweeping generalisations [like the only reason why guys forgive Alicia utterly is due to her bitsy mini skirts or because they are fantasising they are Clark and have their own hot stalker girl] are not good when levelled against either gender, because they underestimate people and don't reflect individual opinions.

It is also important to remember that Alicia is a character who returned to the show for the sole purpose of this plot, she is not a separate entity from the show no matter how 'hot' she and Clark look together. It's not like their love was so wild, untamed and free that TPTB had to cut her life short - they intentionally returned her to the show for that function. She was only meant to have that 3 episode arc, otherwise they probably would have made her death more mysterious so she could return later on. Truthfully, her character is rather a sad figure.
Posted by SteveS: Whatever, she still ends up as a first love and wife in the Smallville universe and provides the information that has given Clark his most dependable confidant, Chloe. She wasn't his first love, Lana or Kyla have that honour. As for her giving Clark his dependable confidant, well the truth is that was a happy accident because her real intention was to expose Clark against his will to the entire world via Chloe.

Kryptonian Snake

06-30-2006, 06:13 AM

Originally posted by RedDwarfette
I thought they stated on the show that Alicia's power were not an overnight development but that she had lived with them for a long time, and I'm sorry, but have they ever said she was influenced by Kryptonite? I thought they left it open to the assumption that she might be a meta-human. They also mentioned that she had stalked another boy before Clark, which is indicative of a destructive pattern of behaviour.
It was pretty clear from Obsession that the meteors were responsible for Alicia's teleportation ability. As for her mental state, there have been a couple of suggestions that the meteors may have caused the violent, morally dubious behaviors associated with many of the meteor mutants. Lana suggested it in Extinction after learning that Jake had gills and Chloe suggested it in the comic that went along with the second volume of the Chloe Chronicles when she was being attacked by Dr. Jameson. However, we've also seen people infected by the meteors who don't really have violent tendencies (Kyle Tippet from Hug, Jordan Cross from Hereafter and Cyrus from Visitor, for example). I tend to think that the meteors aren't responsible for the morally dubious actions of meteor mutants, especially when we've seen similar behavior from people that weren't affected (Phelan from Rogue and Samantha from Fanatic, for example.). Besides, if we accept that the meteors were responsible for a skewed moral compass, then we'd have to let Lex off the hook (at least somewhat) for his future villany. I find that idea laughable.

Mr. Wrong

06-30-2006, 08:10 AM

Wow! I guess I better wade in now. Dwarfette, I congratulate you on some of your well thought out arguments. However I do wish you would please make up your mind about Alicia's mental state. You can't say she is mentally unstable and then state that she is fully responsible for her actions. That is totally unfair. Your reasoning regarding her return to the show is highly plausible, but that doesn't detract from the fact that the chemistry between Clark and Alicia (Tom and Sarah), was huge. Most male posters are in agreement with this. I do not think Alicia was the most beautiful girl in Clark's life by any means so the sexist mini-skirt angle is off the mark as far as I'm concerned. There has been a lot of reference to Alicia trying to rekindle a flame where in actual fact Clark was very much a moth if that is true. He was willing to absorb the rebuke of all of Smallville because of his feelings towards her. I think SteveS called Alicia, Clark's first love because CK generally wears his emotions on his sleeve but doesn't verbalize them. Yet the first time he uses the L word to a 3rd party is regarding Alicia.(Sandman). Shy, at least you tried to justify your opinions I'll give you that, but Alicia gets a little obsessive and that gives Clark the right to betray her secret. You have just made my case for me. Now the shoe is on the other foot and you are trying to justify his actions. Even Clark agrees with me that his actions were pretty lame. I guess that's why I like CK. He is quick to rebuke his own shortcomings and always hoping to do better in the future. I'll add one more thing. Clark learned that lead could be used as a weapon against Alicia and indeed, used it against her. So I don't want to hear anymore about the RedK angle. It's just another double standard from Alicia detractors IMO.

RedDwarfette

06-30-2006, 06:22 PM

Thank you Kryptonian Snake for clarifying that. I wasn't exactly sure whether Alicia's power was Kryptonite induced or already present. I agree the fact that Kryptonite has different effects on different people would seem to suggest it works on their personalities [as well as physical state] and exaggerate already present 'weaknesses' [greed, lust, insecurity, etc]. Sidenote: Does anyone else get annoyed when Alicia goes on and on about her powers? She has one. Its power, girl. Singular.
Posted by Mr. Wrong: However I do wish you would please make up your mind about Alicia's mental state. You can't say she is mentally unstable and then state that she is fully responsible for her actions. Ah Mr. Wrong, we meet again :D I thought I had made myself clear on this issue: Alicia was mentally and emotionally unstable however that does not excuse her actions, she knew what she was doing were either crimes or considered wrong by society and she chose to do them anyway. She intentionally planned many of her actions and they were not opportunistic, that requires forethought. Being unstable does not mean she was insane crazy, otherwise why would each 'crime' she committed benefit her? Many people are unstable and indulge in destructive behaviour, that doesn't mean they are all deemed certifiably insane and absolved of their crimes.
but Alicia gets a little obsessive and that gives Clark the right to betray her secret.Lol! A little obsessive? Is that like being a little pregnant? Clark told others about Alicia's power because she could potentially use it to harm them. He was trying to protect other people by informing them of her capabilities. It was justified. Alicia had an entirely different reason for betraying his secret to Chloe.
There has been a lot of reference to Alicia trying to rekindle a flame where in actual fact Clark was very much a moth if that is true. He was willing to absorb the rebuke of all of Smallville because of his feelings towards her.I agree, Clark was a moth. As I said before his behaviour after Alicia is released is highly questionable, he should have known that she was not ready for that type of relationship and it could cause her to relapse. His lack of regard to her long-term recovery was pretty bad, she was barely released and he was ready for a steady thing. But regarding her pariah-hood, well the fact is Clark shouldn't have to absorb any ill will the town felt towards Alicia. He didn't do wrong, she did. Forgiveness is a noble thing but humans are not always capable of it. Just because Clark can amazingly and bafflingly forgive her actions doesn't mean everyone else is ready for that. However, if she hadn't done anything to warrant the towns suspicion [by her previous actions] I would have been annoyed too.
Clark learned that lead could be used as a weapon against Alicia and indeed, used it against her. So I don't want to hear anymore about the RedK angle. It's just another double standard from Alicia detractors IMO. Please. Clark used lead against Alicia to stop her killing and/or harming himself and others, Alicia used RedK against Clark to drug him. She knew that he would be wildly unpredictable, not in his right mind and more likely to run away from Smallville in that state. They are completely different substances, with completely different effects and used in completely different circumstances. How is that a double standard?

P.S. Thanks for the entertaining and thoughtful debate guys :)

SteveS

06-30-2006, 07:27 PM

" Posted by SteveS: Alicia committed no crimes in her last two episodes of Smallville, her crimes were the year previous.

These things happened in the previous episode -
1) She deliberately drugged Clark.
2) She married him while he was under the influence of a toxic substance. "

We should probably debate RedK, which all that Smallville has shown is that it serves as an inhibition inhibitor, or better said, it loosens inhibitions.

RedK is not toxic, it does not kill ClarkMan, he can go about his merry way without moral inhibitions. That may become immoral but it is not toxic.

As you should know, in order for RedK to be considered a crime by Alicia, it has to have been established so by the legal system of Kansas. Thus far, there is no indicator of Kansas passing laws that deal with Kryptonians.

If one were really trying to appear to judge her fairly, you should have noted that Alicia voluntarily removed the offending RedK before the magic moment. It was a moral/ethical question that this girl-pariah chose correctly to do the right thing.

If ClarkMan made the proposal and said the vows, it was his first marriage even if annulled either for being under-aged or having not been consummated.

Since I never mentioned Alicia's mini-skirt, bra or garter belt, that has to be part in parcel of your take on her attractiveness. My positive impressions started at the skating rink with a cup of coffee and her being fully clad, but you did make my point.

And Mr. Wrong has it exactly right, ClarkMan first used the word 'love' with Alicia. Lana at that stage was just and infatuation and Kyla a dead werewolf/murderess (?). Neither of the just name two had a prayer of happiness with Clark, I think he and Alicia could have been quite fine for each other for awhile.

And as you ignored, Alicia's purpose in exposing Clark to Chloe was that she thought it would lead to their acceptance by the community and happiness (rightly or wrongly) and did indeed yield as a by-product of her decision, the truly best friend that ClarkMan has ever had. Thanks to Alicia.

RedDwarfette

06-30-2006, 08:06 PM

Posted by SteveS: Since I never mentioned Alicia's mini-skirt, bra or garter belt, that has to be part in parcel of your take on her attractiveness. My positive impressions started at the skating rink with a cup of coffee and her being fully clad, but you did make my point. My point was that if you make simplified assumptions as to why some female posters don't like Alicia, namely just because they are jealous, it would be fair to level similar over simplified assumptions at male posters who like her, say entirely for her looks. If you took the time to read the rest of what I said you would clearly see that I don't like generalisations levelled at either gender because they don't take in individual opinions - such as your postive impressions from the skating rink.
And as you ignored, Alicia's purpose in exposing Clark to Chloe was that she thought it would lead to their acceptance by the community and happiness (rightly or wrongly) and did indeed yield as a by-product of her decision, the truly best friend that ClarkMan has ever had. Thanks to Alicia. Ex-sequeese me? I don't think so. Alicia acted for her own reasons. She was hoping that Chloe would expose Clark via an article, that his powers would be known and then they could be together. What Alicia failed or didn't care to realise was a) her action was selfish, b) it was against Clarks expressed will, c) it would place him in a position where he was unfairly prejudged because of his abilites by the rest of the world [unlike Alicia whose history was a basis for the weariness of the town] and d) it could very well lead to him being exploited or becoming a lab rat [face it, his powers far surpass hers and magnify these chances]. Chloe was Clarks friend long before Alicia came along [and long after] you can't honestly expect me to believe that Alicia was the sole reason Clark can now rely on Chloe to keep his secret? They already had a long established friendship, there was ample reasons to assume Chloe would keep his secret and remain his best friend. Like I previously stated, that was a happy accident, because it was far from Alicia's intention that this would occur.

SteveS

06-30-2006, 09:23 PM

Once again you have proven my point by choosing to ignore Alicia's own stated reasons for exposing ClarkMan to Chloe and ex-sequeese you, you instead transplanted your own opinions as fact. In terms of Smallville canon, your opinons are not fact, but Alicia's opinions are fact as canon if not in reality. If worse comes to worse, it is possible to get script if necessary to prove the point, though it is unnecessary.

Chloe was a friend before Alicia indeed, she had an unrequited crush. Again, you are trying to conflate that friendship with the current one which is at least two levels deeper...she is a confidant and works in essence as ClarkMan's partner now. You can not give any realistic example of a the same relationship anytime prior to Alicia's exposure stunt. Like so many things in life that are fortuituos or lucky happenstances, it was Chloe who was chosen, Alicia made the choice. Using Smallville logic, it was destiny that did the rest. (for a test, try substituting an LL named girl and this could not and would not have happend. Thanks Alicia)

If the way to Hell is paved with good intentions, then even using the twisted logic that ignores the canon of the program, the result of Alicia's decision is very positive for Clark , if not heavenly.

RedDwarfette

06-30-2006, 11:14 PM

Posted by SteveS: Once again you have proven my point by choosing to ignore Alicia's own stated reasons for exposing ClarkMan to Chloe and ex-sequeese you, you instead transplanted your own opinions as fact. In terms of Smallville canon, your opinons are not fact, but Alicia's opinions are fact as canon if not in reality. If worse comes to worse, it is possible to get script if necessary to prove the point, though it is unnecessary. There was a point? I have been asked to justify my position and given clear examples of what actually occurred in the show to back them up. When I have given my opinion, I've stated it is my opinion and not pretended it was fact. I'm not blind to canon. Pull the script out, be my guest. I haven't attributed any action or crime to the character that she didn't commit. I would however appreciate debating actual points rather than a 'oh no, you're just wrong' mantra. If anyone is ignoring facts and transplanting their own opinions into what occurred, is it not me.
If the way to Hell is paved with good intentions, then even using the twisted logic that ignores the canon of the program, the result of Alicia's decision is very positive for Clark , if not heavenly. I guess Lex [by completing his 'destiny'] must be a saint then, since his actions are behind some of the reasons why Clark becomes Superman for the good of the world.

SteveS

07-01-2006, 06:08 AM

In that case, it might be simpler for you to state that you are expressing your opinions only and ignoring points in the various episodes such as the actual words in scenes that conflict with your own conclusions, including but not limited to what Alicia stated and you have omitted as her reason for exposing Clark to Chloe.

Opinions are fine and dandy when debating conclusions, but as this thread has shown repeatedly, those like yourself who hated on Alicia typically ignore the stated facts of the program. I noticed you didn't respond to my note about Alicia's not committing any crime in her last two episodes, other than your effort to create 2 from your own opinions. Again, opinion is fine, but you couldn't back up your opinion as to what you claimed were crimes by Alicia. The real reason you could not do so is that they weren't crimes.

It appears that you have proven Mr. Wrong's and my statements about Alicia opponents willful omissions of those facts that conflict with their passionately held opinions or fantasies.

Unless one can come up with new facts, the debate is closed.

shy175223

07-01-2006, 06:38 AM

yeahl, right that's what you think.

bongoboy

07-01-2006, 11:00 AM

Originally posted by shy175223
Again please, stop with this 'she could've been or could be their version of Lori Lemaris'. I see NO comparisons between these two characters. NONE. Clark was only happy because he didn't have to hide his abilities from her. THATS IT!

Hey, don't get me wrong. I probably would've like Alicia IF they hadn't turned her into some psycho stalker chick with unstable issues. And I would have like to see her live at least to make something of her life and leave Smallville. But TPTB, I guess, felt that she served her purpose so to speak other wise they wouldn't have killed her off.

While I agree with you in principle, I believe you are missing the main point. She was So Cute.

:D

shy175223

07-01-2006, 12:42 PM

I'll admit she WAS cute.

RedDwarfette

07-01-2006, 05:52 PM

I'm sorry to ask this SteveS but, do you even read my entire posts or do you just like ripping out a single point out of context? I really don't know how to adequately respond to these unfounded accusations, especially when I have carefully and thoughtfully written each post to express my opinion, stated as such, backed it up with 'evidence' from the show and purposefully tried not to offend anyone. If you don't like what I say, that's fine but trying to attack my honesty isn't doing your arguments credibility any favours.

To tackle this issue yet again: So you are now claiming that Alicia NEVER drugged Clark or married him while he was under the influence of RedK? Geeze, we really must being watching different shows because they are irrefutable facts that occurred in the series. I can understand if you would like to debate why Alicia acted the way she did but to deny they happened entirely... well it seems like someone is forgetting what actually occurred and projecting their own desires onto the show. I could insert something vague here about proving a point but it would be pointless I'm sure.

Somehow I don't think your authority extends to closing a debate on this thread just because you don't like the way the wind is blowing. There is a lot more to discuss about Alicia and this episode and hopefully at some point we will actually get a chance to discuss them. On that note: Alicia Baker as the new Lori Lemaris? How did I miss that? Lol.

shy175223

07-01-2006, 06:19 PM

Originally posted by RedDwarfette
On that note: Alicia Baker as the new Lori Lemaris? How did I miss that? Lol.

Somehow I failed to see the comparisons between these two characters. Just because Clark had illegally married her that counts as somehow she would be 'the version of Lori Lemaris'. For one thing in Clark had wanted to marry Lori but at least he wasn't drugged while with Alicia in SV he was and he was actually IN LOVE with Lori and IMO, he wasn't with Alicia.

RedDwarfette

07-01-2006, 06:39 PM

Yeah, I agree. There really isn't much the two characters have in common except for the fact that they have both been with a young Clark . It's hard to see where the parallels might be, if they even exist. Plus, one [i]is a mermaid :)

SteveS

07-01-2006, 08:34 PM

Let's see, RedDwarfette, previously you responded to my statement that Alicia committed no crimes in her last two episodes with the following:
"1) She deliberately drugged Clark.
2) She married him while he was under the influence of a toxic substance. "

You, and others of your line of thinking, tend to ignore that Alicia removed the offending RedK voluntarily before Clark was traumatized, and then I challenged your claim of 'toxicity', 'drugging' and the general 'crime' she was supposed to have committed. Obviously you could not back up your opinion and bailed without response.

When challenged to give examples of the kind of relationship, virtually a partnership now, between Chloe and Clark that was the same before Alicia's expose' as it is now, you bailed and gave no examples (because there were none) to back up your assertions and opinions. For the simple, it was Alicia's exposure of Clark's secrets to Chloe that led to their current partnership AFTER Alicia had shown Chloe what Clark could do.

So, there are three examples where you have failed completely to document from the show your opinions. Opinions are fine, but where they can't be backed up, they are not a reality but a result of someone's particular biases or fantasies.

Here's one last example of your statements that you can not back up with examples from the episodes "Unsafe" or "Pariah" either one: "she knew what she was doing were either crimes..."

That is your bias or fantasy making that statement. If you think you can prove it from the show, go ahead and do it, but try to focus on the two episodes in question, "Unsafe" or "Pariah".

The challenge couldn't be simpler, prove the truth of your statement or simply admit that it is your opinion, slanted though it may be.

ma200

07-01-2006, 08:54 PM

Originally posted by SteveS
I challenged your claim of 'toxicity', 'drugging' and the general 'crime' she was supposed to have committed.

What she did is technically not a crime but it's still wrong. That's the difference. Taking a person's freedom of choice (RedK that is) is wrong. Attempting to tell the whole world who your boyfriend is, against his wishes, even if you have good intentions, is wrong.

So Alicia's action lead to Chloe being the bestest friend Clark ever had. Big deal. It's not like Alicia told Chloe because she's Clark's friend but primarily because she can use that 'poison pen' of hers to tell the whole wide world who Clark really is.

shy175223

07-01-2006, 09:05 PM

Originally posted by SteveS
You, and others of your line of thinking, tend to ignore that Alicia removed the offending RedK voluntarily before Clark was traumatized, and then I challenged your claim of 'toxicity', 'drugging' and the general 'crime' she was supposed to have committed. Obviously you could not back up your opinion and bailed without response..

I'll admit that Alicia did one little good thing besides taking a bullet for him, but what reallly gets to me is because of the fact that that she admitted to that she knew'everything' about him, That meant that she actually knew how Red K could affect him. We all know that Clark is NOT like any other ordinary guy, therefore in SV meteor rocks like kryptonite CAN affect him emotionally or physically. Drugs like cocicane other substances are kind of like that,. What may not be toxic to us IS toxic to HIM therefore is it is kind of like a drug. REd K strips him of his inhibitions and he does complete opposite of things he wouldn't normally do when he'a thinking clearly and knowing the right from wrong. So Red K IS like a drug to HIM. therefore he WAS drugged.

Originally posted by ma200
What she did is technically not a crime but it's still wrong. That's the difference. Taking a person's freedom of choice (RedK that is) is wrong. Attempting to tell the whole world who your boyfriend is, against his wishes, even if you have good intentions, is wrong.

So Alicia's action lead to Chloe being the bestest friend Clark ever had. Big deal. It's not like Alicia told Chloe because she's Clark's friend but primarily because she can use that 'poison pen' of hers to tell the whole wide world who Clark really is.

right, she may not have commited a crime, but morally sort of IMO, she did.

SteveS

07-01-2006, 09:37 PM

One needs to know what the word 'toxic' actually means when using it. Toxic means something that causes toxicity; injury or death. RedK does not cause injury or death to Clark. RedK is not a hallucenogenic (like LSD) causes hallucinations; it is not a narcotic (like opium) that causes sleepiness or stupor; it doesn't appear to be like marijuana causing euphoria; we can all agree that it removes Clark's inhibitions yet at the same time he is in complete control of his faculties, he is neither 'high' nor 'trippin'." But clearly, he does things that he might not normally do, somewhat like a drunk, yet he is not inebriated. My guess is that this would be something that Clark would not want to practice, yet there is no way to logically call this a 'crime' which by defintion has to be defined by the legal system.

If one wanted to, as some have, try to connect this to a date-rape drug, then the reality is that he was sobered by Alicia prior to any illegal sexual assault.

What one might say fairly is that by knowingly putting a RedK necklace on Clark (assuming that Alicia truly knew 'everything' about Clark...and how would she know how RedK affected him?), then this would be an unethical act, just as her voluntarily removing the RedK from affecting him was an example of a highly ethical behaviour.

RedDwarfette

07-02-2006, 12:24 AM

Mod Note - Please do not discuss other posters. If you have a problem, please bring it to the moderators.

Alicia specifically searched for Red Kryptonite [ransacking the Torch] and later gave Clark the RedK necklace, thus she had prior knowledge of the effect the substance had on him. Since a drug is defined as a chemical substance that affects the normal function of living things, it could be theorised that RedK mirrors the affect of recreational drugs [Cocaine, Speed, etc] by significantly lowering Clarks inhibitions and making him act in ways that he would not if he was fully in control of his faculties. Although Alicia couldn't be legally charged with committing a crime [because to do so would have caused Clarks secret to be revealed] she knowingly administered a 'drug' to Clark. Since drugging people against their will is a illegal, it would be logical to call this act a crime. It came as a relief that Alicia removed the necklace before any consummation of the invalid marriage took place otherwise I think her character would have been completely irredeemable. It is a mark in her favour but considering how they came to be in that situation, it doesn't count for much. It should be noted that by that time Clark would have already been traumatised because his girlfriend knowingly used one of his 'weaknesses' against him for her own purposes.

Smokethatkryptonite

07-03-2006, 01:43 PM

She didn't use the RedK just to have sex with him she thought it was the only way to preserve her realationship wth him it wasn't right but she just wanted to be with Clark

Mr. Wrong

07-04-2006, 09:38 AM

Mod Note - Please do not discuss other posters.

The only time Alicia did anything illegal was when she found herself head over heals infatuated with Clark. Another being who she could relate to and possibly end the solitude she must have been experiencing. Although she says she knows all about Clark I still cannot fathom where she came upon the knowledge of the effects of RedK on him unless he revealed it himself. Still, I only equate that action with the same subtrafuge that a guy uses to try to get a girl to go to bed with him. I hardly think her intentions were to do him any harm whatsoever. She was only hoping to get him to loosen up and take a chance. Again, I reiterate, marriage was entirely Clarks idea. SteveS has the right read on the Chloe angle as well and the facts are right there for the Smallville viewer to see. When Clark has his memory removed a few episodes later only Chloe's knowledge via Alicia, allows her to save the day for our hero. Who else could have guided him through the land mines he faced during that episode. Seems to me that Alicia's motivation for spilling the beans on Clark are more an act of desparation than vindictiveness. Unless Clark is two years younger than Lana then he must have been old enough to marry as Lois told Sandman that both Lana and Jason were over 19 in the next episode. I for one am getting a little tired of all the leeway posters give to Clark's actions while berating Alicia. Dwarfette insists its not gender based but none of us guys is buying that for a second. Even Chloe has done evil things like spy on Clark for Lionel. Primarily due to her unrequited love. However, we don't see her being villified in the same manner as Alicia has been. Why?, because Chloe has the chance to make ammends. Alicia isn't afforded the same chance. Lionel may have learned of Clark's secret due to some of Chloe's findings but we will never know if she was a factor as the thread doesn't go in that direction. My point is that no evil came about from the Alicia thread, indeed, she was pivotal to the ongoing of the show. After all, how long can we keep the man of steel in the wings. Without the Clark/Choe thread we may very well have bid adieu to Smallville.
Maybe they will rename it Metropolis and continue on! I guess I'm not the only guy out here wishing he could find a gal like Alicia. Obviously there is quite a few ladies out there glad to be rid of her. Maybe its not jealousy but I could swear some of the type I read is green!

RedDwarfette

07-04-2006, 09:56 PM

Mod Note - Please talk solely about the argument at hand and not other posters, their ability to argue or anything else off-topic. Review the Kryptonsite rules or speak to a moderator if you have futher questions.

Posted by Mr. Wrong: I still cannot fathom where she came upon the knowledge of the effects of RedK on him unless he revealed it himself. Still, I only equate that action with the same subtrafuge that a guy uses to try to get a girl to go to bed with him. I hardly think her intentions were to do him any harm whatsoever. She was only hoping to get him to loosen up and take a chance. Again, I reiterate, marriage was entirely Clarks idea. ... When Clark has his memory removed a few episodes later only Chloe's knowledge via Alicia, allows her to save the day for our hero. ... I for one am getting a little tired of all the leeway posters give to Clark's actions while berating Alicia. Dwarfette insists its not gender based but none of us guys is buying that for a second. Even Chloe has done evil things like spy on Clark for Lionel. Primarily due to her unrequited love. However, we don't see her being villified in the same manner as Alicia has been. That is genuinely puzzling. Alicia's prior knowledge of RedK suited the writers purpose = no reveal on how she acquired the knowledge. Now this is probably a crucial point in which we differ: I don't equate Alicia exposing Clark to RedK with say, some guy trying to convince a girl that he works for NASA and earns lots of money, as much as I do the guy/girl who purposely plies alcohol on a girl/guy with the intent to make them lose their inhibitions and do things they wouldn't normally do. Clark [in his right mind] made the decision that he didn't want to leave Smallville so by exposing him to RedK she was doing more than trying to make him take a chance. This is where respecting his decisions comes into it and not attempting to remove his choice. Yes the marriage was Clarks idea but I'll reiterate that he was severely influenced by a substance that makes him act out of character and Alicia knew this. Their age shouldn't be an impediment, the fact that one person was under the influence should.

Gender bias? If anyone did the things Alicia did, male or female, it should be considered wrong. If some guys can't buy that well that's not my problem, I'm an equal opportunity character disliker, indiscriminate of gender :) Clark is not on the same level of importance as Alicia. She was a 3 episode character and while her death may have had a far reaching effect, Clark is the central character to the entire series. Unless we want to abandon the show, we are pretty much forced to accept the questionable things Clark does or go crazy. If you are referring to Clark not informing Lana of his alien status before they became intimate, it was wrong of him to do so and reflected badly on the character. Onward to Chloe, her wrong action i.e. promising to provide Lionel with information then not giving him any compared with Alicia's, well it hardly even rates. That's not to say it should be dismissed but really, they aren't on the same level. Before Alicia provided the catalyst in revealing Clark's full powers to Chloe, Chloe already suspected that her friend had super human abilities. If the writers hadn't decided to use Alicia for this reveal, it would have come out another way [though this way worked pretty good]. Alicia wasn't given the chance to make up for the wrongs she did but that's just the way it is. Instead of comparing her to Clark or Chloe, maybe we should examine her actions against another few episodes character, like Morgan Edge?
Posted by Mr. Wrong: Obviously there is quite a few ladies out there glad to be rid of her. Maybe its not jealousy but I could swear some of the type I read is green! :rolleyes: I thought/hoped we were past this.

Mr. Wrong

07-05-2006, 07:44 AM

Mod Note - please stay on topic and do not discuss other posters.

You are right on the money regarding the fact that Chloe would have learned the truth about Clark eventually anyway. In fact, in the past season while in the hospital, Chloe says as much to Clark. Referring to the incident itself with absolutely no mention of Alicia whatsoever. Of course using RedK is more like plying someone with alcohol. Like most of us guys haven't used the alcohol approach before, geesh. Where have you been living RD? Most of us are dogs at times in that respect. Women use their wiles and men their guile. There was nothing singularly atrocious about what Alicia did. She only acted like a person who wanted to get her own way but was met with resistance. Naturally it was self serving, but unlike most selfish people, she had the intestinal fortitude to bring an end to the subtrafuge before going too far. Doing so meant that she was willing to suffer the consequences of her actions so long as Clark wasn't completely compromised. That is uncommonly huge by my standards. Few people are ready and willing to face the music but Alicia did so and with remarkable grace I might add. When she bid adieu to Clark in his barn at the end of the episode her obvious love and regret of her actions showed a strength of character that few others have displayed in the show. Clark felt it with his entire being, as did I. This one scene is probably one of the best moments that I have seen on Smallville and is one of the reasons that I am an avid viewer. I literally could feel the chemistry jump off the screen. Certainly Clark is the main focus of Smallville. That is precisely why we must hold him to a higher standard. With great power comes greater responsibility. Even his own mother was furious with him for running off and getting married and she definitely knew the effects of RedK on him. She didn't cut him any slack what so ever. Comparing Alicia to Morgan Edge just shows me that you are being mean spirited. Did she use Kryptonite against Clark in order to subjugate him, yes, but were the motivations anywhere near the same? I think not! This is precisely why posters like myself adamantly defend Alicia, because of comparisons like that. You tell me the jealousy angle is irrelevant and degrading to Alicia detractors yet you openly show us that your dislike of her is lame IMHO. You may not think so but why else would you impune Alicia's character when you yourself are so loathe to find yourself under scrutiny. I will say in your favour RD, that you are a lively debator and you voice your opinion articulately. Maybe SteveS doesn't really understand you, and never will, but from the cheap seats I'd have to say that he's way ahead in points.

Smokethatkryptonite

07-05-2006, 11:53 AM

To add to Alicia's defensive she only went off to reveal Clark's secret so he wouldn't have to mope and carry the weight on his shoulders anymore. Thanks to her Clark has a confident in Chloe.

SteveS

07-05-2006, 12:54 PM

To her credit RD is a vigorous debater but has failed repeatedly to prove her point. I challenged her on her claim of Alicia having 'drugged' Clark and gave examples of drugs and their affects. She has failed to find an equivalent substance that equates to RedK, most recently trying to bring up 'cocaine' and 'speed' as her examples. It is not good to not understand what example drugs do, to wit: cocaine tends to stifle or supplant sexual urges (nope, thats not it) and speed is a stimulant but mostly used for keepin one awake (nope, #2). So neither of her examples work as ClarkMan being drugged and she can not back it up. (hint:try ****** next)

The reason RD can not back up the 'drugged' claim/slur is simple, it is not the same. Just watched the A&E Superman special a second time and M&G made it clear, RedK removes or lessens Clark's inhibitions, that is it.

Then I challenged her claim that RedK was a toxic substance. Either she did not know the meaning of the word toxic or ignored it's meaning. Failing to defend a claim of Alicia's inducing toxicity to ClarkMan, RD just abandoned and ignored her having made this claim.

The claim of Alicia's what 'general crimes' (?) in the last two episodes was challenged and what and how a crime is determined by society were explained by me. Unable to provide any proof of a 'crime' committed by Alicia in "Unsafe" or "Pariah", RD lost that claim too. We could agree to a general wrong being done to Clark.

Thus far, that is 3 failures in a row.

Sadly,here comes the next failed claim by RD: that I have at any point called her a 'liar.' Never happened, feel free to show any and all posters where I have done so, otherwise you may owe me an apology.

The above will be her 4th failure in a row and just a hint, I will not let that one go. Good luck on your 'proof.'

What I will say right here is that if anyone thinks that I have said in a previous post that RD is a 'liar', then they are delusional. (there, I said delusional out loud...but related to a very specific claim.)

I had not known that RD had previously posted something to the effect of wanting to have Tom Welling's baby, is that correct?

Better avoid that RedK, might get you into trouble.

RedDwarfette

07-05-2006, 05:53 PM

Posted by Mr. Wrong: I didn't see you being called a liar, I saw your allegations being questioned if not totally rebuked. Why is it female posters tend to act like they have been physically struck whenever their opinions are put under a microscope. I do not get offended when others question my thinking while debating a T.V. show thread. ... Like most of us guys haven't used the alcohol approach before, geesh. Where have you been living RD? ... Comparing Alicia to Morgan Edge just shows me that you are being mean spirited. You may not think so but why else would you impune Alicia's character when you yourself are so loathe to find yourself under scrutiny. ... Maybe SteveS doesn't really understand you, and never will, but from the cheap seats I'd have to say that he's way ahead in points. Here's how I see it: You don't need to personally attack a poster's credibility, attack the/their argument. He claimed that I misrepresented and made up evidence and fantasised about the show rather than producing any facts, i.e. lied. Since I offered my opinions and backed them up with show evidence I take that seriously. He also said Alicia never unwillingly exposed Clark to RedK or married him, so maybe I shouldn't be too worried. My hackles rise at injustice too. If there was an honest questioning of female fans motives, there would be no problem, however those comments were sexist and deliberately aimed at undermining the opinion of female fans without any supporting evidence. Somehow I doubt your opinion has ever been reduced to a 'you're just jealous' comment in a debate.

Where have I been living? In the real world. Thousands of people are taken advantage of every year due to drugs/alcohol being unknowingly administered to them. The aim is to lower the persons inhibitions and or resistance, which is basically what RedK does to Clark. It is precisely because the severity of the crime is often dismissed that it is so widespread. I didn't say you took that approach but unfortunately it does happen and the consequences are treated with far more importance than Smallville was bothered to show.

Sigh. Name calling again? The reason why I introduced the notion of comparing Alicia and Morgan Edge was because they are both characters that were only on the show for a short time and their impact was lasting. I did not say they were on par in their actions. This is what I loathe, having comments attributed to me that I didn't make. If I had a problem with having my opinion questioned or being under scrutiny, I wouldn't be here. So, disliking a character because she committed deeds that I find wrong and criminal is lame? Whatever. It is a valid reason and since we aren't graded on it, it stands.

P.S. Award him with as many of your imaginary points in the debate as you like, that's your prerogative. :)

RedDwarfette

07-05-2006, 10:06 PM

SteveS, just because you believe that I 'failed' to substantiate my points doesn't make it true for me or anyone else. I provided evidence, you disregard it, well that's it then. I have had quite good luck on my proof, thank you. Hint: Since I was the one whose credibility and truthfulness was called into question and I never responded in kind, I wont let it go either :)
Posted by SteveS: I had not known that RD had previously posted something to the effect of wanting to have Tom Welling's baby, is that correct? :rolleyes: No, that is NOT correct. If you look at the post [made earlier in this thread] I made a joke about Clark [the character] to illustrate how unbelievable the 'oh, you're just jealous' argument was. In my next post I clarified again that I was being sarcastic in that comment. If someone is going to take that joke seriously then more fool them. So before I'm falsely accused, I never said anything regarding TW.

SteveS

07-05-2006, 10:48 PM

RedDwarfette, you can not back a claim that I said you were a "liar", I think that you should take that claim to a moderator.

You don't back up claims of Alicia introducing 'toxic substances' because the show does not indicate that RedK is 'toxic.'

You can not back up the 'crimes' you claimed Alicia did in her last two episodes. Please copy this and add your 'proof' right underneath so all can see the brilliance of your points.

Quick responses prove nothing and it is fairly clear that you can not back up with clear examples from the show for your arguments.

" He also said Alicia never unwillingly exposed Clark to RedK or married him, so maybe I shouldn't be too worried. "

Here, this one shouldn't be too tough, back it up for the other posters to see. They have already seen that you have failed completely to show where I called you a 'liar' and please, do cut and paste that claim to a moderator.

Ladies first.

RedQ

07-06-2006, 12:51 AM

Originally posted by Welling_is_pretty
First Pariah:

Ok, Suddenly Clark and Alicia show up and are obviously a couple. Yet, last episode Clark made it clear that he and Alicia could never be together. What's up with that?
It's part of the story of the relationship being volitile.

Lana is a total jerk in this episode. yeah, Alicia tried to kill her but shouldn't she trust Clark's judgement more than this?
Lana is having trust issues with Clark right now remember?

Could it perhaps be any one of the 5 billion Kryptomutants running around Smallville?
All are in Belle Reeve and she's the FotW that is present in view and the others are no where to be IDed.

The FoTW was pretty lame. A bad version of the Sandman (a Marvel comics villian).
I feel a law suit comming. Don't worry we'll see him again in T2:Judgement Day and Spiderman 3

Clark's reaction to Alicia's death....I thought it was pretty bad.
(when he was screaming 'noooo!' all I was thinking was 'Vader? Is that you?' which is not what you want running through your mind!).
I think i mentioned this before on TW bad acting. Proably he hasn't lost anyone that's why he doesn't have an Affective Memory or Memory/Sensory Recall for it.

When he goes to confront the villian he's ready to kill and he says he loved Alicia but I never saw evidence of that in any of the previous episodes. Now all of a sudden he loves her? WTF?
Best moment of it all is Clark's guilt in the barn. (hey, he should feel guilty for doubting her.)
When Clark Realized he was wrong about Alica, and she was the girl that he could be with openly. then Losing her without being able to Apologize to her for his mistake. And to even say Goodbye. One can really drive someone to kill.

And yet I was thinking 'why isn't he angry at his parents?' and 'why haven't they apologized for how they treated Alicia?'.
They did in the last scene

I also hate how Alicia dies and Clark seemingly forgets about her in the next few episodes and goes back to being stuck on Lana. So much for 'loving Alicia'.
Time heal All wounds BUT remember what Clark Swore to NEVER lose hope for the good in people, which he did in Ep 4.13 - Recruit. and will be imbedded in his Character through out his life to become SUPERMAN.
============================
*whew*
Now, about Alicia:
(Red K has been analogist to a drug and last I looked most date rapists drugged their victims) then decides she wants to have an honest relationship with him and takes the Red K away? And Clark loves her, why again?
Mr.Worng has stated this AGAIN and AGAIN in his previous post. It's because Alicia WANTS this to be Right and Perfect! your a FEMALE and you can't grasp the moment that is special to you to be perfect night, or have you lost all value to True Marital Devotion?

Then when he refuses to 'come out of the closet' with her she exposes his secret to a reporter she thinks writes 'poison pen' articles.
Is this the action of a woman in love, who would do anything to protect the man she loves?
It's the Action of the Desperate Abandoned Lover. who is Wrongly Accused lost the trust of the one person she Truely loves. You need alot of growing up to do. I hope tis never happens to you.

Alicia had a great intro a decent middle and a sucky ending, to me.
I agree, but Great Middle (as this eps); and the end had to be done no matter how we hated it. T~T

And while it was great for Clark to have a girlfriend who knew his secrets and had powers too, I'd prefer that she not be crazy.
DAMN, she was CURED! and she isn't Perfect!
As for Chloe should be shocked about the discovery of Clarks powers. She had some suspicions.
But Clark got pissed and had a falling out remember. 2.07 Lineage.

Red-K has been discussed as an Alcohol to Kryptonians.

The Indian girl came closest but unfortunately had very little development time. TRUE

RedQ

07-06-2006, 01:51 AM

Originally posted by RedDwarfette
It is also important to remember that Alicia wasn't his first love, Lana or Kyla have that honour.

Red Kryptonite Discussion is in this link (http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=57781)

Mr. Wrong

07-06-2006, 07:50 AM

RD, if pointing out where your statements seem to go awry is calling you a liar then SteveS is in the same category as most teachers and supervisors that I have known. SteveS, please relax your stance on this a bit. I don't believe any other posters think you were out of line, RD was just striking out, inappropriately mind you, at what she felt was an unfair allegation. Strange, isn't that exactly what we have been discussing all along? Alicia is falsely accused of something and reacts in a manner that her detractors deem inappropriate by RedK'ing, marrying and outing Clark. In Alicia's defence again she first asked Chloe a very pertinent question. She asked her how it could be that with all of her knowledge of kryptomutants she was unable to see what had been right in front of her eyes all along. When it was obvious that Chloe didn't catch her drift, Alicia decided then and there to set her straight by showing her. Since Alicia knows everything about Clark, apparently, she must know about the bond between him and Chloe. I will even go as far to say that her intentions were likely aimed at putting it in Chloe's hands to determine if she should destroy Clark just to have another story. As she had obviously done as much to Alicia.
RD, when your reason for disliking Alicia seems lame to some of us, logic demands that we look for other possibilities for your position. Hence the jealousy question. Since its one of the deadly sins that everyone feels now and again, it is a legitimate assumption. Apparently you feel that Alicia's actions were unforgivable and that is your right. I, for one, have examined your reasoning carefully and come to the conclusion that both men and women don't need a quantifiable reason to dislike someone's character. Its only human nature. By the way, Morgan Edge doesn't come close to being on the same level as Alicia. Certainly not as a short term character that had a lasting effect. I dare say that if Rutger hadn't played the part, I probably wouldn't have give Edge a second thought. Enough already with the RedK drugging bit. Clark is Superman for pete's sake. How else do you get a reaction from him without hurting him? Even his old friend Pete used it on him just to see how he would react. I seriously doubt that anyone else in Alicia's shoes would have behaved differently. Despite the obvious disdain of her behaviour that you post constantly. RedQ, welcome aboard. Kayla is the kryptonian known as Supergirl. She was supposedly sent by Jorel to retrieve Kalel. This was a pretty disjointed episode that only painted Jorel in a worse light for a reason that is beyond me. Welcome aboard incidentally.

KSiteTV

07-06-2006, 10:12 AM

Okay, I'm going to have to remind some people in here of some rules on this forum:

1- PLEASE DO NOT TALK ABOUT OTHER POSTERS IN THE THREAD. There's a lot of personal name-calling starting to begin, which has nothing to do with keeping things to being about the show.

2- "You all are just jealous" type comments are also not allowed here. It's a really lame argument, but beyond that, it's in the rules.

3- Please respect that others have different opinions from your own and don't resort to name-calling.

This is a warning to just about everyone who's been participating in this bickering match. Thanks.

jay dante

07-24-2006, 04:11 PM

Sad to see Alicia get killed. Would of been so much better if they had Lana as the dead lover in Clarks life but oh well. Clark is also responsible for Alicia's death. Alicia is coming from a home where her parent's are scared of her. Everyone knows her powers and think shes a freak, a scapegoat, or suspect when something weird happens. On the other hand Clark has loving parents and everyone think hes normal. If only he cut her some slack.

shy175223

07-24-2006, 04:13 PM

I definitley disagree with your statement there, but that is just me.

Mr. Wrong

07-25-2006, 07:52 AM

I agree that it was a shame that she died as she did but it was entirely necessary to maintain continuity. I think it would definitely have been better had Clark lost his virginity to her before she got killed, instead of to Lana. Strictly because in the Superman story Lana was always Clark's unrequited love and if he had to lose his virginity wouldn't it have been better if it was to someone he loved and lost unavoidably?. Killing Lana off in #100 would have provided a plausible reason for Clark to move on in his love life but unfortunately Dad had to go first and Lana isn't supposed to die according to tradition. I think Alicia was a fabulous character but Clark was conflicted in his relationship with her and can't really be held to blame for her death. He had no reason to think she was in any danger. Since Smallville depicts the teenage years of our superhero we have to expect lots of bad choices and missteps to occur. Sadly, often the good die young and I think that Alicia's good qualities outweighed the bad by far. IMO

Dyanara

08-03-2006, 12:52 AM

That was a powerful episode, I havent seen that many but the way Clark reacted to her death was 10x better than how he reacted to Lana. I kept wondering if he was going to fly up into the sky and turn the earth backwards, or pull a Willow and kill everyone. I know Alicia was in no way as important as Lois or Tara but the way it was played it gave me chills. I love that it was Lois that convinced Clark not to kill the guy who should have died,imo.
I felt bad that Alicia had to die thnking everyone hated her. This episode and Unsafe made me dislike Martha K. for the first time.

Mr. Wrong

08-03-2006, 06:52 AM

This was definitely a powerful episode. In Clark's defence, its the first time that he has to face the violent, senseless death of someone so close to him. Our skin tends to thicken as life goes on. I to, expected to hear at least a sonic boom-like cry from C.K., but I was still satisfied with the way it was handled. If I hadn't seen the buffy episode that you eluded to, I wouldn't have seen the correlation, but I also expected a sudden adrenaline rush of dynamic proportions under such stressful conditions. I to was impressed with the growth in the Lois character. She truly started to display a personality akin to that of someone worthy of a super love match down the road. I also found Martha's reactions in a couple of episodes to be a bit disconcerting. Probably because in reality mothers aren't perfect, despite the pedestals we often place them on. Here's hoping future episodes are character and morale builders. Reality, as it is today, is dark enough as it is.IMO

Dyanara

08-04-2006, 09:45 AM

I dont want to hate on Martha but i thought she was quite cold when her and Johnathon went up there to talk to Clark. She didnt even try to comfort her son. I know she didnt like Alicia and though I havent seen her psycho episodes I can tell that she had a good reason, but would it have killed her to feel a little sympathy for her son and an innocent girl who was framed? Again I dont want to judge her this is just how I felt.

Mr. Wrong

08-08-2006, 07:56 AM

I am not clear why Martha holds so much anamosity towards Alicia. Perhaps the powers that be wrote her that way to dispell the chemistry that had developed between her and Clark. I think Martha was extremely bothered by the magnetic effect she seemed to have on her son. After all, she actually had him considering exposing himself to the world. Martha probably felt that Alicia was just as dangerous to Clark as Kryptonite so her reactions were atypical of her normal behaviour. Obviously you felt the same way I did in that it was a cruel and unfair judgement.

UpandAtom

09-01-2006, 10:04 PM

Martha seemed to hate Alicia in "Pariah" more than in "Unsafe". That may be because she thought that Alicia was a bad influence on Clark after she drugged him and tried to marry him.

Mr. Wrong

09-02-2006, 12:30 PM

Martha hated Alicia because she had the nerve to pop in to her son's bedroom unannounced. Something no self respecting lady should do. Albeit, she did have that capability and she utilized it freely. Remember, she did not have the proper guidance in the first place. Both of her parents were too afraid of her to take a firm hand since she had escaped their confinement room. Despite her claims that she knew all about Clark, she had not seen what kind of effect that Red K would have on him and we have no idea where and how she learned of this deep dark secret in the first place. Again, marriage was solely Clark's idea, only they did not consumate it and they were able to have it annuled. Alicia's influence on Clark was definitely contrary to the wishes of the Kent's. They were solely focused on their son's future where Alicia was more of a "seize the day" type of person. You must admit, from her point of view, it proved to be precognitive.

RedQ

09-06-2006, 06:16 AM

Originally posted by Mr. Wrong
...she must know about the bond between him and Chloe...
I agree that we have a sense when we know someone likes the other but the director didn't even show any hints that Alicia knows or a shot of Alicia seeing Chloe looking at Clark.

RedQ, welcome aboard. Kayla is the kryptonian known as Supergirl. She was supposedly sent by Jorel to retrieve Kalel. This was a pretty disjointed episode that only painted Jorel in a worse light for a reason that is beyond me. Welcome aboard incidentally.
Isn't it KARA, I just figured it out from Episode #2-10 Notable Guest Stars: Tamara Feldman as Kyla

...expected to hear at least a sonic boom-like cry from C.K...,
That would have been Great HOPEFULLY they do that in Season 7

I think Martha was extremely bothered by the magnetic effect she seemed to have on her son. After all, she actually had him considering exposing himself to the world. Martha probably felt that Alicia was just as dangerous to Clark as Kryptonite so her reactions were atypical of her normal behaviour.

Originally posted by UpandAtom
Martha seemed to hate Alicia in "Pariah" more than in "Unsafe". That may be because she thought that Alicia was a bad influence on Clark after she drugged him and tried to marry him.
I also LOVED the way Martha reacted it was VERY Proper as a Mother.

Remember, she did not have the proper guidance in the first place. Both of her parents were too afraid of her to take a firm hand since she had escaped their confinement room.

Mr. Wrong

09-06-2006, 07:15 AM

Since her anger was focussed on Clark rather than Alicia, I would have to agree. However, her son is not like us mere mortals, even if the Kents have done a terrific job raising him like one. Without the strict moral code ingrained through years of good parenting Clark could basically have any woman he wanted. Alicia's superpower gave her a certain level of equality with Clark which bring to mind the Reed Richards/Sue Storm match from the Fantastic Four. P.S. I stand corrected on the Kara issue. I had read that the writers were insinuating a link in this episode. Much the same as they did with Krypto/Shelby.

jason_bourne001

02-23-2007, 01:41 AM

^^ still missing her... :(

Mr. Wrong

02-23-2007, 09:39 AM

Yes, I still think she would have been the best match for CK. I'm glad to see that Sarah (Alicia) is still very prominent in such shows as Numbers and Shark. She is a terrific actress.

x0xmorganx0x

02-26-2007, 12:15 PM

I loved that episode,it was funny when Alicia and Clark married :)

Mr. Wrong

02-26-2007, 02:40 PM

I thought all 3 episodes with Alicia were superb! They provided originality, humour, surprise, as well as every emotion that comes to mind.

hahahaha!!

02-27-2007, 08:42 AM

wow

this one was amazing!!

i looooove alicia so much.

but steal...i found that weird plothole:
when alicia calls to clark to rescue her cause she wants to show chloe his powers shes all:"save me i lost control of the car"

why havnt clark said:"uhh...alicia just.....teleport ursel out!"
cant she??

svfan50

02-27-2007, 08:51 AM

Originally posted by hahahaha!!
wow

this one was amazing!!

i looooove alicia so much.

but steal...i found that weird plothole:
when alicia calls to clark to rescue her cause she wants to show chloe his powers shes all:"save me i lost control of the car"

why havnt clark said:"uhh...alicia just.....teleport ursel out!"
cant she??

EXXACTLY!!!!!
and when that sand-guy was killing her.....tying her neck to the rope..why din't she just teleport herself!!!!!!!!!!! Crazy

Mr. Wrong

02-27-2007, 12:30 PM

Clark never ignores or questions a call for help. He has the capability of reacting immediately to the S.O.S. and doesn't waste critical time justifying the necessity. Sand-guy had chloroformed Alicia prior to hanging her, otherwise she certainly would have teleported herself.

jason_bourne001

02-28-2007, 12:55 AM

^^ but still... DAMN YOU TPTBs!!!!

Mr. Wrong

02-28-2007, 06:57 AM

I hear ya!

meteor_phreak

03-07-2007, 08:28 AM

i just rewatched these two eps yesterday. two of the best eps of the series. pariah makes it hard to watch unsafe...too painful...

Tomsgurl88

03-12-2007, 07:22 PM

I know!!!!! It's sooooo sad, and the ending of Pariah is sad too, when Chloe is talking to Clark at Alicia's grave after she found out his secret, i love that scene between them though.

Mr. Wrong

03-13-2007, 09:17 AM

The second and third episode with Alicia had at least three such scenes that really tugged at the old heart strings! Most entire seasons don't have that many. They are the defining moments in an action drama such as SV. There was CK and Alicia in the barn, CK and Lois at the death scene and CK and Chloe at the end. All three displayed the emotion and the character that I will find memorable long after the series has finished!

jason_bourne001

03-13-2007, 10:04 PM

^^ what's really good with the two of them is the way they play with emotions.. at first you see them as a cute couple skating... then an intimate, ubersexy one on the wedding... then the really serious one that tug at the ol heart strings in the barn and then suddenly the tragic in Pariah... just 2 episodes and you become emotionally attached to both of them that you really hated seeing her DIE... dammit! :(

Mr. Wrong

03-14-2007, 07:33 AM

I hear you Jason, I hear you!!! I knew there had to be a few guys like myself out there. Unfortunately she had to go because there was no way they would be able to convince anyone that they didn't belong together. That is not meant to slight any of the Clana, Chlark, or indeed Clois pairings. Chemistry is chemistry and Clicia had it in spades. SC can't help the fact that she is both adorable and talented!

jason_bourne001

03-14-2007, 09:59 PM

^^ yeah... and having CHEMISTRY with CLARK is, and has been proven, dangerous to one's HEALTH...

sithius

03-31-2007, 07:15 PM

Awesome episode, just really saw it.

Is it me or was TW trying to take on CR's brilliant sob/scream when he had Alicia dead in his arms, like Superman has Lois dead in his arms? It was nowhere near CR's but it was definitely an emotional scene. I think TW pulls off the facial emotions a lot more better then the actual yells and so on.

tibbit78

04-07-2007, 07:03 PM

What did I think of Pariah? There are 4 things I liked about Pariah:

1) The Alicia & Chloe scene. Alicia visits the Torch and talks to Chloe. What I loved about this scene was when Alicia tells Chloe that she writes about meteor freaks and "you don't even realize that someone close to you is one is one of them." She tells Chloe Sullivan, "Don't you want to know the truth about Clark Kent?" At first Chloe doesn't believe Alicia, until Alicia grabs Chloe's hand and proves it to her. The best part of this scene is when Chloe witnesses Clark's secret (she finally knows Clark's secret; she knows everything except the alien part). I got excited when Chloe witnesses this. She sees Clark stop the speeding car and catch it "as if it were a beach ball" (this is what Chloe tells Clark in Arrival). Then she sees Clark slowly put the car down and Chloe sees Clark super-speed off. This episode and scene with Alicia & Chloe was really classic.

Alicia and Chloe

Alicia: Can any cell hold her? Probably not.

Chloe: Alicia, what are you doing here?

Alicia: Chloe Sullivan, ace reporter. You write all these articles about the people you call freaks...and you don't even realize that someone close to you is one of them. Why are you ignoring what's right in front of your face, Chloe? Don't you want to know the truth about Clark Kent?

Chloe: Everyone knows you're crazy. Why should I believe you?

Alicia: You don't have to, I'm going to prove it. And then you can write the story of a lifetime.

Chloe: Where are we? What are you doing?

Alicia: Giving you your next headline...and making things better for Clark. Clark, I'm on Balsom Road, and there's something wrong with the car! It won't stop!

Clark: Hang on!

Alicia: Just hurry! Once you see this, Chloe, you'll understand. And then Clark can be who he really is. And you can use that poison pen of yours to enlighten Smallville for a change.

Chloe: Clark? What are you---

Alicia: Don't worry, Chloe.

(Clark stops the car and catches it as if it were a beach ball. Then he puts the car down slowly. Clark super-speeds off right in front of Chloe and Alicia. WHOOOOSH!).

2) I loved the Martha, Jonathan & Clark scene.

Jonathan tells Clark, "What happened to Alicia, it wasn't your fault."
Clark tells his Dad, "If I had believed her, she'd still be alive."
Jonathan tells Clark that Alicia was framed, and there was no way he could have known that.
I loved this quote from Clark:

Clark: "I could have trusted her. Did you know Alicia wanted me to go to the sheriff with her and tell her everything? Alicia thought that if people knew the truth about me and what I can do...they wouldn't be so quick to judge her, but I didn't go. I was too afraid of what people might think. How they would react. But what if she was right? Because if people knew...what I could do, and who I really am...maybe she'd still be alive. And I just can't forgive myself for that." (Clark was crying).

Tom Welling played an excellent part in this, especially when he broke down and cried over Alicia. His best acting part was when he finds Alicia hung, and he breaks down and cries. Lois comes along and comforts him. She tells Clark that she thinks it might be Tim that killed Alicia. He cries out in pain! That was his best part! (When I saw Ryan, I was hoping that Clark would cry when Ryan died, but he didn't. Unsafe & Pariah were the first time we saw Tom Welling cry in Smallville). It showed what a good actor he really is. He's come along way, becoming a better actor on Smallville.

3) The Chloe and Lois scenes. This is my favorite scene of Lois & Chloe. Lois Lane gives her little cousin Chloe great advice in keeping a secret, and tells Chloe that keeping a secret doesn't hurt anyone. Chloe tells Lois, "If you found out something somebody didn't want you to know about them, would you tell them?"

Lois asks Chloe, "Is that person someone you care about?" Chloe answers, "Yes."

Lois continues to ask Chloe, "And does keeping a secret hurt anyone?" "No," answers Chloe.

Lois Lane's best quote/advice to Chloe Sullivan: "Then my answer is no. If I really cared about that person, I wouldn't tell them I knew. But I would go out of my way to be supportive of them, so that hopefully one day, they'd be comfortable enough to tell me themselves." (That is the best advice I ever heard come out of Lois' mouth, since most of the time she's a smart-aleck and a tough girl. It shows that Lois really does care about people).

Chloe answers Lois, "No offense, Lois, but that's the last thing I expected to hear from you."

Lois continues, "I have learned the hard way that people keep secrets for a reason, even from the people they're closest to. I'm sure that whoever it is that you're talking about, will tell you when they're ready."

Then Chloe talks to herself, "Oh, Clark. Why didn't you tell me?" She takes down all of the pictures and articles about Clark Kent from the Wall of Weird and tosses them in the trash. She becomes a great secret-keeper, and is one of Clark's best confidante and loyal friends. She has never betrayed Clark's secret, and as she tells Clark in Arrival, "Your secret will never leave my lips," and in Splinter, "I'd die before I'd ever betray you, Clark."

4) The Chloe & Clark scene at the Cemetary.

Clark goes and visits Alicia Baker's grave-site. Chloe goes to the cemetary and sees Clark there. She wants to help Clark in his grief over the loss of Alicia Baker.

Chloe says to Clark, "Hey, Clark, I just wanted to say I'm sorry...for everything. It must have been so hard being so different. Having everyone judge you before they even know you. Knowing that there might be some people that might never accept you. I just -- I want you to know that I'm here for you... if ever you need to talk to me."

Clark answers, "Thanks, Chloe. I appreciate that."

In my opinion, Pariah was a better episode than Unsafe. Hurrah for Chloe for finally learning Clark's secret.

Angellegna

04-29-2007, 05:31 PM

Hey, who was the idiot who killed Alicia? The freak with the ability to turn into sand. Does it say his name in the episode?

UpandAtom

05-18-2007, 03:52 PM

His name was Tim, and does anybody understand his motive in the first place? I mean, he wanted to kill Jason and Lana because he felt they were doing something wrong by going out, but the age difference between them certainly isn't greater than between him and Lois. And if it was just about the fact that Jason was a teacher dating a student, then why does Tim wait until now to attack. Jason was fired back in "Jinx". Also, why does he try to frame Alicia and then kill her? The sheriff already knows that Alicia couldn't have committed the second assualt, so why does Tim bother killing her to save his own skin?

meteor_phreak

05-23-2007, 11:11 AM

tim killed her because TPTB wanted her dead, and that was how they decided to do it. this show is so transparent.

Alexius

05-23-2007, 07:47 PM

Originally posted by tibbit78
What did I think of Pariah? There are 4 things I liked about Pariah:

1) The Alicia & Chloe scene. Alicia visits the Torch and talks to Chloe. What I loved about this scene was when Alicia tells Chloe that she writes about meteor freaks and "you don't even realize that someone close to you is one is one of them." She tells Chloe Sullivan, "Don't you want to know the truth about Clark Kent?" At first Chloe doesn't believe Alicia, until Alicia grabs Chloe's hand and proves it to her. The best part of this scene is when Chloe witnesses Clark's secret (she finally knows Clark's secret; she knows everything except the alien part). I got excited when Chloe witnesses this. She sees Clark stop the speeding car and catch it "as if it were a beach ball" (this is what Chloe tells Clark in Arrival). Then she sees Clark slowly put the car down and Chloe sees Clark super-speed off. This episode and scene with Alicia & Chloe was really classic.

Alicia and Chloe

Alicia: Can any cell hold her? Probably not.

Chloe: Alicia, what are you doing here?

Alicia: Chloe Sullivan, ace reporter. You write all these articles about the people you call freaks...and you don't even realize that someone close to you is one of them. Why are you ignoring what's right in front of your face, Chloe? Don't you want to know the truth about Clark Kent?

Chloe: Everyone knows you're crazy. Why should I believe you?

Alicia: You don't have to, I'm going to prove it. And then you can write the story of a lifetime.

Chloe: Where are we? What are you doing?

Alicia: Giving you your next headline...and making things better for Clark. Clark, I'm on Balsom Road, and there's something wrong with the car! It won't stop!

Clark: Hang on!

Alicia: Just hurry! Once you see this, Chloe, you'll understand. And then Clark can be who he really is. And you can use that poison pen of yours to enlighten Smallville for a change.

Chloe: Clark? What are you---

Alicia: Don't worry, Chloe.

(Clark stops the car and catches it as if it were a beach ball. Then he puts the car down slowly. Clark super-speeds off right in front of Chloe and Alicia. WHOOOOSH!).

2) I loved the Martha, Jonathan & Clark scene.

Jonathan tells Clark, "What happened to Alicia, it wasn't your fault."
Clark tells his Dad, "If I had believed her, she'd still be alive."
Jonathan tells Clark that Alicia was framed, and there was no way he could have known that.
I loved this quote from Clark:

Clark: "I could have trusted her. Did you know Alicia wanted me to go to the sheriff with her and tell her everything? Alicia thought that if people knew the truth about me and what I can do...they wouldn't be so quick to judge her, but I didn't go. I was too afraid of what people might think. How they would react. But what if she was right? Because if people knew...what I could do, and who I really am...maybe she'd still be alive. And I just can't forgive myself for that." (Clark was crying).

Tom Welling played an excellent part in this, especially when he broke down and cried over Alicia. His best acting part was when he finds Alicia hung, and he breaks down and cries. Lois comes along and comforts him. She tells Clark that she thinks it might be Tim that killed Alicia. He cries out in pain! That was his best part! (When I saw Ryan, I was hoping that Clark would cry when Ryan died, but he didn't. Unsafe & Pariah were the first time we saw Tom Welling cry in Smallville). It showed what a good actor he really is. He's come along way, becoming a better actor on Smallville.

3) The Chloe and Lois scenes. This is my favorite scene of Lois & Chloe. Lois Lane gives her little cousin Chloe great advice in keeping a secret, and tells Chloe that keeping a secret doesn't hurt anyone. Chloe tells Lois, "If you found out something somebody didn't want you to know about them, would you tell them?"

Lois asks Chloe, "Is that person someone you care about?" Chloe answers, "Yes."

Lois continues to ask Chloe, "And does keeping a secret hurt anyone?" "No," answers Chloe.

Lois Lane's best quote/advice to Chloe Sullivan: "Then my answer is no. If I really cared about that person, I wouldn't tell them I knew. But I would go out of my way to be supportive of them, so that hopefully one day, they'd be comfortable enough to tell me themselves." (That is the best advice I ever heard come out of Lois' mouth, since most of the time she's a smart-aleck and a tough girl. It shows that Lois really does care about people).

Chloe answers Lois, "No offense, Lois, but that's the last thing I expected to hear from you."

Lois continues, "I have learned the hard way that people keep secrets for a reason, even from the people they're closest to. I'm sure that whoever it is that you're talking about, will tell you when they're ready."

Then Chloe talks to herself, "Oh, Clark. Why didn't you tell me?" She takes down all of the pictures and articles about Clark Kent from the Wall of Weird and tosses them in the trash. She becomes a great secret-keeper, and is one of Clark's best confidante and loyal friends. She has never betrayed Clark's secret, and as she tells Clark in Arrival, "Your secret will never leave my lips," and in Splinter, "I'd die before I'd ever betray you, Clark."

4) The Chloe & Clark scene at the Cemetary.

Clark goes and visits Alicia Baker's grave-site. Chloe goes to the cemetary and sees Clark there. She wants to help Clark in his grief over the loss of Alicia Baker.

Chloe says to Clark, "Hey, Clark, I just wanted to say I'm sorry...for everything. It must have been so hard being so different. Having everyone judge you before they even know you. Knowing that there might be some people that might never accept you. I just -- I want you to know that I'm here for you... if ever you need to talk to me."

Clark answers, "Thanks, Chloe. I appreciate that."

In my opinion, Pariah was a better episode than Unsafe. Hurrah for Chloe for finally learning Clark's secret.

Tibbit, you'd read my mind, excellent! Some of us here seem to have our "clones", scary. :eek:
Alicia was a nice twist, it was entertaining to see Clark with another girl, besides you know who. :D

genvillewars92

06-02-2007, 05:38 PM

i love that lois saved clark from killing that man. *she saves him from himself*

Gypsies_Princess

06-11-2007, 06:26 AM

I loved this episode, one of the best episodes in season 4 ..
the whole idea was great and the fact that Chloe learned Clark's secret.. I also liked it when Lois and Chloe were singing in the beginning of the episode..

Acejournalist82

06-11-2007, 06:40 AM

I loved this episode!!!!!!!

kp1984

07-11-2007, 04:12 PM

This episode was kind of sad. It suck the way Alicai died. I don't see why she did'nt just teleport when that dude actake her.

SteveS

07-11-2007, 06:36 PM

One of Smallville's successful episodes. I saw "Unsafe" once again on ABC a few weeks ago and was struck once again by the clearly superior chemistry between ChlarkMan and Alicia. Other people noticed it too, that is why it is still being discussed years after she is gone.

Gone but not forgotten.

tibbit78

09-28-2007, 05:52 PM

Originally posted by Alexius
Tibbit, you'd read my mind, excellent! Some of us here seem to have our "clones", scary. :eek:
Alicia was a nice twist, it was entertaining to see Clark with another girl, besides you know who. :D

Thanks, for the compliment, Alexius. I enjoyed the Clark & Alicia scenes.

gategod

09-30-2007, 11:25 AM

I loved the episode, definitely one of the better episodes of the season. I loved Alicia and Clark's relationship and wish that they wouldn't have killed her :( She was by far the best guest star they have had on to date and i will always remember her. Only bad thing i saw in this episode was that alicia was killed :/ and then the next episode is never mentioned .... it's like the writers don't want good story arcs, the death of Alicia should have rung out through the next 4 or 5 eps with a depressed clark, not a "YAY" lets go to see if i can play football. "Alicia Who?" ...

SteveS

09-30-2007, 02:17 PM

Its easy to do a pro and con of Alicia's last two episodes and lois' many, many episodes and compare the two and their relationship with Clark and his attraction or lack of it to either. Whatever, Alicia is the hands down winner in my opinion.

And ClarkMan would only be a loser if he chose the lesser of the two and that isn't
Alicia.

gategod

09-30-2007, 08:08 PM

lol i just think that the last scene of clark in the ep, he is sad, the next scene with clark he's talking about football, college, and drinking beer, while having fun... how can they just jump like that concidering it had probally been only days or weeks since alicia died...

Subzero

12-12-2007, 12:42 PM

THe episode of "Pariah" ranks high in my books just becuase of the inclusion factor of alicia. However, I have some serious issues with the episode also:

1. There is not nearly enough Clark/Alicia interaction

2. I feel that Alicia was totally writtten out of character - Consistency would be highly appreciated. In "unsafe" she takes a bullet for Clark - to protect his secret. Now she is accused of attacking someone (which at first Clark is supportive about) and so she turns 180 degrees and gives up his secret to Chloe? That does not add up.

3. I dislike the fact that Alicia was used as a sacrificial lamb so that Chloe could find out about Clark.

4. They KILLED ALICIA! TPTB suck for that - she and Clark had THE BEST CHEMISTRY on the show.

(Subzero leaves the soapbox)

JNottle

05-19-2008, 01:17 PM

Just watched this episode again, it was a great episode all around.

Clark finally begins disliking Jason, and realising Lana is quick to judge, he was hesident to stay their with her and Martha.

Alicia did promise to keep the secret, but trust is a two-way deal, she thought the only way she and Clark could keep their relationship would be if people found out about him.

Lois at the beginning when she said "First he marrys her, now he's dating her" was hilerious. But towards the end when she told Clark she knew who did it I knew it would be a bad mistake.

Jonathan and Martha even believed it was Alicia, and they always are the ones saying don't judge and all.

I liked the way Chloe found out, and she was looking at the pictures of all the things he's managed to do and started figuring it out.

All in all this episode was great.

lois_lane-kent

05-21-2008, 09:35 AM

Jonathan and Martha even believed it was Alicia, and they always are the ones saying don't judge and all.
Jonathan Kent was one of the most hypocritical, judgmental characters on this show. (With the other one being that girl whose name I don't feel like saying, since she's gone now!!! It rhymes with Donna Fang.)

shy175223

05-21-2008, 10:42 AM

who is Donna Fang? :\

JNottle

05-22-2008, 03:19 AM

I think he means Lana.

lois_lane-kent

05-22-2008, 06:43 AM

I think he means Lana.
She

:)

BigT

06-12-2008, 02:16 PM

sorry, it's not the same thing.
Why not? You're just saying a bunch of BS because you hate Alicia with a passion. She just more than eye candy. She actually had an importance on the show. It's one thing that you just don't like her. It's another to be a complete jackass about it!

----- Added 2 Minutes later -----

wow

this one was amazing!!

i looooove alicia so much.

but steal...i found that weird plothole:
when alicia calls to clark to rescue her cause she wants to show chloe his powers shes all:"save me i lost control of the car"

why havnt clark said:"uhh...alicia just.....teleport ursel out!"
cant she??

LOL!

----- Added 6 Minutes later -----

I plan on making a fan fic parody out of this episode. It will sorta have to do with Pariah but I'm bringing in a different matter subject in. I'm just doing it for fun cause I think it will be funny. So far I plan to entitle it, Bat-riah!

----- Added 25 Minutes later -----

THe episode of "Pariah" ranks high in my books just becuase of the inclusion factor of alicia. However, I have some serious issues with the episode also:

1. There is not nearly enough Clark/Alicia interaction

2. I feel that Alicia was totally writtten out of character - Consistency would be highly appreciated. In "unsafe" she takes a bullet for Clark - to protect his secret. Now she is accused of attacking someone (which at first Clark is supportive about) and so she turns 180 degrees and gives up his secret to Chloe? That does not add up.

3. I dislike the fact that Alicia was used as a sacrificial lamb so that Chloe could find out about Clark.

4. They KILLED ALICIA! TPTB suck for that - she and Clark had THE BEST CHEMISTRY on the show.

(Subzero leaves the soapbox)

Yeah dude I feel the same exact way. We can only hope that see somehow comes back to Smallville for just one last time. Pity that Shark was cancelled (Not that I really watched it) but that raises the possibilty. Now that Kristin Kreuk's no longer a series regular (pretty much getting Lana out of the picture) it could happen. THIS COULD BE PERFECT TIMING!! Just hate how they killed her so they could put Clark and Lana back together at the end of season 4. Though this episode was good, I feel that this episode was just a burial for the Alicia character. Gough and Millar seem to rush their actual GOOD storylines and spend more time with more boring and pretty mediorce ones. Well at least none of Sarah Carter's episodes sucked.