Triplet's "Reckoning" Review [Archive] - KSiteTV Television & Movie Forums

LuthorRequiem2

01-29-2006, 02:20 AM

Triplet, I totally agree with you. This episode was fantastic on many levels. The few levels on which it disappointed were nothing compared to the brilliance of the overall performances, acting, directing, and screenwriting. I am a screenwriter and director, and I also know a lot about acting, and from all those standpoints, in my opinion, I'd say the episode was superb.

The writing was great because it delved deeper into the characters psychologically. It also left us wondering what the heck was going to happen. Would Lana really die? When Lex sped after her again, and Chloe said, "I can't find Lana", would fate repeat itself, thus proving to Clark that destiny can't be changed? What photos does Lionel have? Is Lionel back to being the evil man we once knew? What's to become of Clark in the next few episodes? The writers left us with these questions, and did it so brilliantly.

The directing was wonderful. I literally felt like I couldn't breathe when Clark proposed, when Lex was chasing Lana, and the slow-motion effect at the end was just heartwrenching. Also, the camera angle of Clark in front of the Angel statue was a nice homage to the first episode, but if you look carefully, you see one of the wings is not shown on the screen, maybe symbolically implying that Clark is torn right now and unsure of who he wants to be, and that this is making him a darker person right now.

The acting was breathtaking. TW's tears and devestation were SO authentic when Lana died, and his inner turmoil could be seen when he helped his mother with her necklace and at the funeral, even though he was trying to be a man and not break down, you could just feel the tears, the anger, and the sorrow inside him. MR gave one of his finest performances, really making us feel the different emotions Lex was going through; his self-pity, his remorse, his anger, his feeling of loss, it was all so brilliantly played, and then he went into villain mode, but it didn't feel contrived. He really made us sympathize with Lex and yet be scared of him all at the same time. KR was good too, especially when she told Clark she needed a break, and also her fear with Lex. I think her scenes in the Fortress coudl've been better, but she did overall a very good job. John Scheider. What a great actor. His scenes with Clark and Martha were so touching. When he said to Clark, "It's hard watching your son grow into a man", and when he pulled Clark away from Lana's dead body, saying, "There's nothing you could've done. Nothing," and then when he looked at Clark and Martha, and without even saying anything, told them with his eyes how much he loved them....it was all so beautifully done. John, you are a terrific actor, and you will be missed. Here's hoping you come back to direct another episode someday! "Talisman" was excellent directing on your part. And another John did a brilliant job, as usual, the fabulous Mr. John Glover. Lionel was so scary and villainous I could just feel the evil and coldness being in the same room with him. Great job, Glover! This whole season has been very confusing with Lionel, but I think we've gotten a glimpse into where his motivations lie. Annete O'Toole made me almost cry, her performance was so great when she was grief-stricken, but still telling Clark it wasn't his fault. Thinking of Clark and Martha hugging after he put on the pearls makes me teary-eyed. The onyl thing I think she fell flat on was her screaming. It was just a tad bit over-the-top. She's seen Jonathan have a heart attack before. It seems she'd be a bit more calm and know what to do in this type of situation, but I'm not sure. Maybe it doesn't matter how many times it happens, it still always scares her. Erica Durance was great, with the little lines she had, showing her genuine affection for Clark, and Allison Mack's emotions were so beautiful, as usual. Her reaction to Clark saying he was getting married to Lana stands out as a great acting performance.

This episode helps to set things in motion for who Clark will become. It also helps to tear Clark and Lana apart for the final time, helping to set up the Lois and Clark relationship that we will see in the future. I suspect Lex will try to be a supportive friend to Clark now that Jonathan is dead, but Clark may deep down blame Lex a bit for what happened, helping to further their rift. :(

The only things I have complaints with, story-wise, is that maybe they should've had Jonathan die at the beginning, Clark beg Jor-El to go back in time, and then STILL Jonathan dies anyway, proving that Clark can't alter destiny. Or, Lana dies, helping to further the rift between Lex and Clark. Both ways may have been a bit better to tell the story, but I was so touched and mesmorized by it that it didn't matter overall.

SamBanksJLA

01-29-2006, 02:23 AM

I didn't like the review at all. While I was reading it I began to think that there was some major S'Ville butt kissing going on. And then to make matters worse, Triplett gives it a 5 out of 5. I would give it maybe a 4 and that's being VERY generous!

LuthorRequiem2

01-29-2006, 02:30 AM

Just because Triplet loved the episode, and you didn't, that doesn't mean Triplet's kissing butt. :) It simply means you two have a difference of opinion. I personally loved mostly everything about it. I can admit when episodes fall flat of what they should be, and this one generally didn't disappoint me.

KRAM-el

01-29-2006, 02:40 AM

Originally posted by LuthorRequiem2
Just because Triplet loved the episode, and you didn't, that doesn't mean Triplet's kissing butt. :) It simply means you two have a difference of opinion. I personally loved mostly everything about it. I can admit when episodes fall flat of what they should be, and this one generally didn't disappoint me.

Let's not get into arguments here, please. You agree w/ Triplet, we don't. You're a screenwriter, I'm a screenwriter. We don't see it the same way. Don't put US down for what we think. They asked for our thoughts on the review & we're giving them. Peace.

SamBanksJLA

01-29-2006, 03:32 AM

I loved half the first half of the episode, and parts of the second half. But my criticism of her review is that he really doesn't give any criticism at all. It seems like he could have done a better job evaluating the whole thing instead of just letting us know what happened. There really wasn't much review there, just a lot of rehashing what happened.

FREAK4LLL:P

01-29-2006, 04:37 AM

I have a VERY differing opinion!

The first half was great. I do take issue with Lana being so amazed by the fortress that it completely overtook her amazement of being teleported. The scene had a rushed feeling because of her lack of natural reactions in my opinion.

Visually, Reckoning was great. The acting was great. Everything but the DAMN story was great.

I thought smallville lost it a couple of seasons ago but I got duped this season by episodes like Hidden. I got smacked with Aqua and Thirst but stuck around for Chlois hints.

Now? I am so done. Clark gets one chance to change time? He uses it for this? How damn selfish! I actually thought that for ONCE, Clark would have to suffer some serious consequences but, again, I was duped. Jonathan takes the heat for him even when he's a "man." Clark is the same man the boy was. Still putting too much emphasis on Lana and whining when things don't go his way. What the hell is wrong with Jor-El that he would let Clark make a decision like that?
Then, knowing that someone else he loves is going to die, he wastes the crystal anyway!!!? So, he wastes a powerful "save the world" card knowing someone else that he loves will suffer because his suffering over Lana is unbearable. What an asshat!!!

He needed to be more distraught with guilt imo.

Lana going to see Lex seemed contrived from the gitgo! She just got engaged and her man's dad just became Senator. I was with Clark when he said "where'd ya go?" I just don't understand why he didn't ask wth she left the party to go over there for without even saying a thing.

It just seems like the writers had a bunch of ingredients and fit them together as best they could but that is know way to treat an episode touted such as this one was.

Pimping out the Final Destination 3 shouts were a cross between really wrong and really brilliant...from a marketing pov and hey, didn't we all miss the episodes bitten from current movie themes? uh...no.

Clana should've ended with Clark maturing and realizing how ridiculous he is with regard to Lana but...nope. Still a bda.

It was entertaining but Reckoning wasn't a great story by any stretch of my imagination. We got punked on the Clark and Lana reveal, big time. Clark, apparently still needed a father to show him how a man acts in times of crisis but, so much for that.

Lois didn't belong in the episode at all but I guess it would've been too easy for Clark and Lana to work out with "knowing Chloe" giving perfect advice on both sides.

Almost through with the random rant but...yeah, Clark was an asshat to Chloe too. I mean, what kind of jerk goes to the friend that he KNOWS crushes on him to get relationship advise? What a dolt. I can't tell if he's stupid here or just doesn't care about his best friends feelings.

Martha was all too forgiving. Aunt May in Spidey 2 was more believable.

Final thought? This show is nothing but special effects it seems. Oh, and TnA. I really wish the new network can do something to make the writers move things along after 5 years. The only thing that's changed is Lois is on the show in a near useless capacity, Jonathan Kent is dead and HOPEFULLY Clark and Lex just hate eachother. Unfortunately, their split has something to do with Lana which is so un-super. Clark think more with Clark junior than humans do with our...juniors.

Get serious folks, or do a cartoon.

mfluder

01-29-2006, 04:53 AM

Originally posted by KRAM-el
Although I'm sure your review was honest and forthright as you saw it, the matter is that it is far from the general consensus. On that thought, it sounds (although unintentional I'm sure) that you have a direct line into TPTB's pocketbook. The only detraction from the episode I got was your "rushed" references.

All-in-all, IMHO, it was a terrible episode (or mediocre at it's very best) that was overhyped, overadvertised, and underdelivered.

Just an opposing viewpoint, everyone's entitled to their own.

Agree whole-heartedly.

What I've found most interesting about this review is that out of about 15 paragraphs, 7 were devoted to the review of the actors' portrayals (which none could argue with, really - all played their roles very well, TW, MR, AOT and JS particularly), 1 on the special effects, 1 on the cinematography, and 1 as an acknowledgment of the nod to one of the movies. (axis spin).

The review of the episode/story itself, then, breaks down to this:

<<<< Writers Kelly Souders and Brian Peterson delivered a terrific story. I was initially perplexed, and even a touch angry, with the whole time reboot thing. However, in thinking about it the gimmick wasn't as bad an idea as I first thought. So, yeah Clark has yet another person that learns his secret "forget" it, but this time it's different.It wasn't another "mind whammy" moment. This is a do-over, instead of another memory-wiping contrivance, this time it was a conscious choice on his part. No going back to square one, like I thought would happen. Clark said it himself about Lana, "She's really done this time."

Jor-El said that there would be no more second chances and I don't think he was just talking about turning back time.

Anyway, the writers kept the action steady, even if it felt a bit rushed at times, and the act break cliff-hangers were some of the best ever. There was beautiful dialogue, touching moments, some wonderful one-liners and terrific references to the Superman mythos. >>>

In a review about the episode, it surprises me that there is no real discussion about why Jonathan's death was necessary, why it was (not) a surprise, why not telling Lana the second time around was a bad/good idea, what part Lois' accident did or didn't play in determining the fate of who would die, of whether Clark's actions were consistent with his character development to date or whether we're dealing with Pod!Person Clark who would sacrifice anybody to save his own feelings?

Yes, the performances of the actors are all important - and they did a wonderful job. But for such a pivotal episode in the life of this series, I don't think the important matters - certainly the things that have prompted so many posts on the forum - have been touched upon.

In any case...

Whether a conscious choice or a mind-whammy, the decision to wipe Lana's memory of such a pivotal change in their relationship was as bad as wiping out 1 year of Dallas by having it all be a dream. It's a contrived and over-used plot device developed by the first writer who had backed themselves into a corner.

If getting Clark and Lana together was decided on as a bad thing, then why go down that road at all in the first place? And if in getting there they decided they were better apart because now Lois is on the scene (though in canon they get together much later in Clark's life) or because they just want more angst, why not drag it out a little longer? Why use the "oh woe is me, anyone knowing my secret is always in danger" excuse to make Clark a lonely, angsty character who, in this series, barely has a day of happiness before some catrastrophe comes along?

"She's really done this time?" I swear, I thought he was talking about me. <g> Life may not always be sunshine and roses, but just for once it might have been nice for the writers to give the character a chance of happiness, at least more than one episode of Clark and Lana being together before catrastrophe descends again.

Rushed? Indeed it was. 4 and a half years of build up to Clark telling Lana, and it's over in the blink of a 'pre-opening credits' eye. Where was even a bit of on-screen discussion about his powers, a couple of instances where he saved his life? Where was the chance to see Clark in action doing what he does best?

Why didn't we get a few episodes of Clark and Lana together with Lana knowing, some good, happy moments of Clark making toast as only he can, of him setting off to save someone etc? Why did the reveal, the death and the non-reveal have to happen so quickly?

Rushed? I'll say it was!

As for everything else.... Wreckoning is about the right title. :)

mfl

pixiedust

01-29-2006, 07:03 AM

Great review, Trip. I agree with you wholeheartedly. I know we're in the minority, but I loved the episode too, from the writing, to the special effects to most especially the acting.

There were aspects that I expected to be different, even wanted to be different, but I was able to see past my expectations to understand this episode for the brilliant one that it truly was.

I truly believe that this episode wasn't about Lana learning the secret but about the lesson Clark will learn that will lead him to become Superman. I totally agree that this episode will be a pivotal one in the development in the character of Clark Kent, probably the most important one we've seen in the whole series to date. Maybe the disappointment with this episode came from its lack of resolution. But I'm taking TPTB's word for it that everythng is going to change from here on out and Clark is now firmly on his journey to becoming Superman.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the episode with us.

PETER WEST

01-29-2006, 07:12 AM

Originally posted by KryptonSite
http://www.kryptonsite.com/reckoningreview.htm

Not bad Triplet, not bad at all . ;)

MBCorp

01-29-2006, 07:53 AM

Everyone is entitled to their different opinions, after all, but I am surprised that the review didn't at least attempt to address the problems that everyone has had with this episode. Even if the reviewer doesn't share these same concerns then at least she should have stated why and tried to explain and defend the plotlines that we all seem to have trouble with. Gushing about the actors and the special effects is all very well, but I would like to have read a meatier review concerning the script writing and the plotline. I have no problem with the reviewer having a different opinion about the episode than myself, but that was rather a shallow review for such a controversial and important episode.

Slickz0r

01-29-2006, 08:00 AM

I think we all can agree with one thing - the episode should've lasted more than 40ish minutes; concidering it's content.

triplet

01-29-2006, 09:13 AM

Originally posted by KRAM-el
Triplet -- Very nicely worded review but unfortunately that's where I have to draw the line... I have to say (from a writer's standpoint) that this was one of (if not THE) worst episodes of SV yet. Not only did it leave many of us w/ a horrible feeling of disappointment, it failed in many ways to tie up the numerous tangled plotlines that have been tossed around "willy nilly" for a couple of seasons now.

"All you wanted to see" & "shocking death" as advertised fell flat on their collective face - A line by John Schneider in the first few minutes literally screamed at us that Jonathan Kent would be the 'final & permanent death' of the episode. Some shock.

Clark had many other options for changing Lana's 'destiny' once the "timewarp" card had been played, but as usual, our bumbling hero takes the low road.

I don't even want to go into the endless number of bottomless plot holes that led up to and then were dug even deeper in # 100.

Although there were some bright spots in some of the performances (and not all, by any means, but I don't want to play favorites, here) it at times left me with the impression of a HS play.

Although I'm sure your review was honest and forthright as you saw it, the matter is that it is far from the general consensus. On that thought, it sounds (although unintentional I'm sure) that you have a direct line into TPTB's pocketbook. The only detraction from the episode I got was your "rushed" references.

All-in-all, IMHO, it was a terrible episode (or mediocre at it's very best) that was overhyped, overadvertised, and underdelivered.

Just an opposing viewpoint, everyone's entitled to their own.

Wait, you actually suggesting that I get paid for my reviews and that's why they're as positive as they are?

I wish they did pay me. Maybe then making my mortgage payments would be a little easier...

Yes, you are entitled to your opinion but I am my own person and the opinions expressed in my reviews are my own. I am not bought and paid for.

Craig doesn't even edit them much much less necessarily endorse my opinions...

You know, I'd seen what people were saying on the forums about this episode. So, I was a bit concerned that my review wouldn't go over well, but my reviews aren't put out to validate other people's opinions. They're a snapshot of my thoughts and feelings of the episode.

For me, I feel I have to be honest and I have said some things in the past that pissed people off and I'm not worried about that, per se. This isn't a popularity contest either.

If what I say makes you like me less, so be it, but I do try to be honest. And I honestly believe that this episode was one of the best.

Acting wise, the cast has never been better and it would get high marks from me on that point alone.

As for the show feeling rushed, I read somewhere that the episode had been intended to be 90 minutes but the net wouldn't give them the extra half hour. I don't know if that's true but it would explain a lot.

Too bad, I'm sure the full 90 minutes would have been even better. Hopefully we'll see the full version (not just deleted scenes) on the 5th season DVD.

mfluder

01-29-2006, 09:28 AM

triplet

01-29-2006, 09:34 AM

Originally posted by MBCorp
Everyone is entitled to their different opinions, after all, but I am surprised that the review didn't at least attempt to address the problems that everyone has had with this episode. Even if the reviewer doesn't share these same concerns then at least she should have stated why and tried to explain and defend the plotlines that we all seem to have trouble with. Gushing about the actors and the special effects is all very well, but I would like to have read a meatier review concerning the script writing and the plotline. I have no problem with the reviewer having a different opinion about the episode than myself, but that was rather a shallow review for such a controversial and important episode.

You know, I am not sure how to respond to this...

My reviews, if you've read them before, are all like this. I kinda go through the episode's major set pieces and I don't usually mention other people's problems with things....

And why should I? It's my review, not yours and not someone else's.....

And if I don't have a problem with something, or otherwise not think it's worth talking about, then I won't mention it at all. In the case of this episode, I thought the acting was the strongest part of it so I spent some time discussing that in my review. I thought John, Annette, Michael, Tom and Kristin all turned in stellar performances and said so.

In other reviews I hardly mention the acting at all in comparison. But I was an actor when I was a younger so I'm not sure it's all that surprising, given my background, that I spend some time in almost every review talking about it. I know how hard it is for them to make it look as easy as they do....

The actors don't get enough respect on this forum for their talent as they should, IMO.

As for my review being shallow, I'm not sure what it is you're trying to say about me but if you don't like my reviews you certainly don't have to read them.

Quadrotriticale

01-29-2006, 09:37 AM

I disagree with the review but that's my opinion. Clark went back in time for his own selfish reasons KNOWING if he did save her someone else he loved would die. He didn't think it through as usual and as a result his father took the hit. I could go on with other terrible parts of the story but don't see the point. This show is being cooked and the fork is ready.

cayayofm

01-29-2006, 09:37 AM

Triplet I usually agree with you, but I have to disagree here. Here is the thing, in your review and the post above you keep mentioning how the acting was outstanding and never been better, yes I agree, but what about the story, where are the arguments in wich you state why the episode worked. Story wise the episode was a failure to me, the only thing that hapened is that JK died everything else was changed, oh and that Clark found another lame excuse to not tell Lana his secret. The writters found another way to keep things the same, Jonathan's death was the obvious choice because is the one that will have less impact in the way that the show works (don't get me wrong, is the most personal and most effective for Clark's journey, but his death won't change much the dinamic of the show). This was supposed to be a turning point for all the characters, it was not. I won't even get into the plot holes, Jonathan dying is too contrived, Lana died in an accident, Jonathan died a natural death, what means that he would had died anyway, you can't stop natural death. The episode felt over the top from the start, how can you say: "Hey Lana I have super powers, I am an alien, by the way I arrived in the meteor shower that kill your parents...will you marry me? You just can't dump something like that and fallow it with a marriage proposal, and this is ignoring the fact that they are both 18 and none of the two work. How exactly Lois destiny changed, Lana was suposed to go to help her, why she did not went on the do over, yet all of her other actions were the same? Oh, they had to keep Clark occupied while Lana went away over to Lex...so many plot problems that this episode is just a shadow of what could had been. Easily the worst witten episode of the season so far.

avidreader

01-29-2006, 09:39 AM

Great review Triplet, and my feelings on the episode run right alongside of yours.

This episode wasnt about resolution it was about changing the boy to a man. Things from here on will change.

I think Triplet's reviews cover an overall perception of the show without going into specific details. That's what this forum is for. If you want to question Triplet on a specific plot point, then I'm sure she would be more than obliging to give you her interpretations of it.

I agree with your ranking of the episode definitely a 5/5.

Beautiful story
Beautifully filmed
Beatifully directed
Beautifully acted

KRAM-el

01-29-2006, 09:43 AM

Originally posted by triplet
Wait, you actually suggesting that I get paid for my reviews and that's why they're as positive as they are?

I wish they did pay me. Maybe then making my mortgage payments would be a little easier...

Yes, you are entitled to your opinion but I am my own person and the opinions expressed in my reviews are my own. I am not bought and paid for.

Craig doesn't even edit them much much less necessarily endorse my opinions...

You know, I'd seen what people were saying on the forums about this episode. So, I was a bit concerned that my review wouldn't go over well, but my reviews aren't put out to validate other people's opinions. They're a snapshot of my thoughts and feelings of the episode.

For me, I feel I have to be honest and I have said some things in the past that pissed people off and I'm not worried about that, per se. This isn't a popularity contest either.

If what I say makes you like me less, so be it, but I do try to be honest. And I honestly believe that this episode was one of the best.

Acting wise, the cast has never been better and it would get high marks from me on that point alone.

As for the show feeling rushed, I read somewhere that the episode had been intended to be 90 minutes but the net wouldn't give them the extra half hour. I don't know if that's true but it would explain a lot.

Too bad, I'm sure the full 90 minutes would have been even better. Hopefully we'll see the full version (not just deleted scenes) on the 5th season DVD.

Here we go... No Triplet, I AM NOT suggesting you were paid, & it's simply your defense mechanism making you say that. I DID say that I was sure your review was forthright (that's a compliment, is it not?) just that it SEEMED so. No hate here!

I don't see any purpose in K-site putting up your review, then asking us to comment on it, if in doing so & disagreeing turns into a bashing contest -- Is this Communist China here?

I ALSO stated that it was simply MY opinion itself -- and EVERYONE is ENTITLED to theirs... but it appears I may be wrong. My sincere apologies if my (truthful) post violated some reviewer's law - to NEVER disapprove - if so, guilty as charged.

And no, I honestly wasn't enthralled by EVERY actor's performance -- many were truly magnificent, some were good-average, and some were weak. And this varied from scene-scene.

In closing I sincerely hope from here on out that you can accept the same kind of criticism that you "dish out" as a reviewer (critic). I am not trying to release "the dogs of war" here, and I apparently have at least a few supporter's on my side, as well.

I certainly hope the Mod's are merciful w/ this, but I feel as if I've been attacked for voicing my opinion, as I was asked to.

I hope we can amicably disagree & call a truce here...

triplet

01-29-2006, 09:54 AM

Originally posted by mfluder
I think you just said in one paragraph what I took several to do. <g>

I kinda equate it to talking about what a lovely shade a pink the elephant in the room is, rather than discussing why it is there in the first place. :) Yes, the performances were all terrific but where was the indepth look at what was actually happening that prompted such performances?

mfl

What sort of insight were you looking for?

I think these threads sometimes turn into a bash-triplet-o-rama, whether it is incidentally or on purpose, but the reason I like to see people post in here is to see how people's opinions differ from mine but all I'm seeing is that your opinion is different and not why.

Why do you think there were plot holes?

What do you think was "actually happening that prompted such peformances?"

I'm not especially good at writing profound commentary and my reviews deal more with the nuts and bolts of episodes partly because of that. When I do try to be profound, I usually fail miserably so don't wish for that: you don't want to read it. Believe me.

I have problems articulating that kind of thing... if you can do better, go right ahead. I would love to hear your thoughts on this episode. Maybe I'll learn something...

Originally posted by KRAM-el
Here we go... No Triplet, I AM NOT suggesting you were paid, & it's simply your defense mechanism making you say that. I DID say that I was sure your review was forthright (that's a compliment, is it not?) just that it SEEMED so. No hate here!

I don't see any purpose in K-site putting up your review, then asking us to comment on it, if in doing so & disagreeing turns into a bashing contest -- Is this Communist China here?

I ALSO stated that it was simply MY opinion itself -- and EVERYONE is ENTITLED to theirs... but it appears I may be wrong. My sincere apologies if my (truthful) post violated some reviewer's law - to NEVER disapprove - if so, guilty as charged.

And no, I honestly wasn't enthralled by EVERY actor's performance -- many were truly magnificent, some were good-average, and some were weak. And this varied from scene-scene.

In closing I sincerely hope from here on out that you can accept the same kind of criticism that you "dish out" as a reviewer (critic). I am not trying to release "the dogs of war" here, and I apparently have at least a few supporter's on my side, as well.

I certainly hope the Mod's are merciful w/ this, but I feel as if I've been attacked for voicing my opinion, as I was asked to.

I hope we can amicably disagree & call a truce here...

I think you misunderstood me, I wasn't trying to bash you... I don't like to be bashed and so I try to avoid doing that in return.

I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings.

I don't mind people saying they disagree with my reviews, especially on an episode like this, but I would like to know why.

Personally, I didn't really have a problem with any of the aspects of the story except for what I had said in the review about my initial reaction to the reboot.

I had felt angry at first and even disappointed that they pulled that but as the episode unfolded, the consquences weren't quite what I had expected so in the end I enjoyed the episode quite a bit. Actually, it grew on me quite a bit on subsequent viewings.

The other things people have mentioned as being "plot holes" I just didn't think they were, or at least they didn't bother me like they did other people.

KRAM-el

01-29-2006, 09:56 AM

Originally posted by triplet

I have problems articulating that kind of thing... if you can do better, go right ahead. I would love to hear your thoughts on this episode. Maybe I'll learn something...

Nobody's saying they can do better here. And again, as a reviewer I can only hope that in the future you can see that there will always be disseminating opinions... many just can't "articulate" them well, so it becomes a "bashing". That's life.

My ONLY complaint (please take this lightly) is perhaps that you spent too much of the review "replaying" the events of the episode & too little "commenting" on those events. Anyway, I've already said too much here... :(

avidreader

01-29-2006, 10:01 AM

triplet

01-29-2006, 10:11 AM

Originally posted by KRAM-el
Nobody's saying they can do better here. And again, as a reviewer I can only hope that in the future you can see that there will always be disseminating opinions... many just can't "articulate" them well, so it becomes a "bashing". That's life.

You see, there I go again not articulating what I'm thinking very well.

Maybe I'm a screenwriter for a reason...

Anyway, what I was trying to say was that if you have something to say about the episode that is more profound than what I did (and I readily admit I am NOT at all profound), then I do want to hear what you have to say.

Honest.

I might actually learn something and I will never turn away from a learning experience.

Originally posted by KRAM-el
My ONLY complaint (please take this lightly) is perhaps that you spent too much of the review "replaying" the events of the episode & too little "commenting" on those events. Anyway, I've already said too much here... :(

No, not at all.

You have something to say that doesn't involve bashing me, I'm all for you saying it. That's why I asked Craig to create these threads for me.

It's the only thing I asked for when he said he wanted me to write the reviews. I wanted these threads because I want to learn from the experience, I enjoy the feedback (whether or not you agree with my opinions) as long as it doesn't get personal.

I didn't get that where I was reviewing before this. So, despite the occassional bash-triplet-fest, I am grateful that Craig can provide me with this venue.

And I'm not looking for validation here. As much as I like to hear the "attagirls," I actually learn more from reasonable and well-articulated dissenting opinions than I do from ones that agree with me.

KRAM-el

01-29-2006, 10:21 AM

Originally posted by avidreader
Well how about change the theme of what you're saying and ask Triplet for an opinion on an aspect of the episode that you didnt like or understand.

She's very inciteful and I'm sure she'll give you some interesting feedback.

Again, I don't think this is the right forum for a back-and-forth opinion battle. Triplet has her reasons for liking it, I have my reasons for not liking it. A reviewer (IMHO) should review, as it's simply that person's take based on their fellings, thought process, etc. We're ALL different in that respect & before long, the reasons for this-&-that would reach into the thousands if we continue to break it down further. She's not going to convince me & I'm not going to convince her. I just offered up an opposing view. Not even Ebert & Roeper (or Siskel & Ebert before) agreed on everything... And as a writer, I'm not exactly talking out of my hind end here. I think this has gone far enough off topic, I'm dropping it. :p

triplet

01-29-2006, 10:28 AM

Originally posted by KRAM-el
Again, I don't think this is the right forum for a back-and-forth opinion battle. Triplet has her reasons for liking it, I have my reasons for not liking it. A reviewer (IMHO) should review, as it's simply that person's take based on their fellings, thought process, etc. We're ALL different in that respect & before long, the reasons for this-&-that would reach into the thousands if we continue to break it down further. She's not going to convince me & I'm not going to convince her. I just offered up an opposing view. Not even Ebert & Roeper (or Siskel & Ebert before) agreed on everything... And as a writer, I'm not exactly talking out of my hind end here. I think this has gone far enough off topic, I'm dropping it. :p

Thing is, your thoughts are not off-topic. They are exactly on topic.

You can say what you want to about the episode, and I want you to. I am now hugely curious what you have to say about it...

KRAM-el

01-29-2006, 10:42 AM

Originally posted by triplet
Thing is, your thoughts are not off-topic. They are exactly on topic.

You can say what you want to about the episode, and I want you to. I am now hugely curious what you have to say about it...

Please go back & read all my previous posts under this episode heading (many threads). I have articulated my reasons many, many times since Thursday night. Maybe then you can see where I'm coming from.

* waves white flag *

triplet

01-29-2006, 11:05 AM

Actually, I won't do that even though I am curious.

Not enough time in the day for me as is without me spending time searching out your posts...

MBCorp

01-29-2006, 11:45 AM

Originally posted by triplet
As for my review being shallow, I'm not sure what it is you're trying to say about me but if you don't like my reviews you certainly don't have to read them.

I wasn't saying anything against you personally when I made the "shallow" remark. I didn't mean to imply that I think that you yourself are a shallow person, I don't know you personally, how could I think that? I just felt that your review lacked any true substance and that you failed to really address any of the problems that many people had with the episode. And as a reviewer I do feel that it's your job to address all points objectively concerning an episode, and not only your own feelings about it. I'm sorry but I truly feel that way although I wish now I hadn't said anything about that since you seem to be offended by my comments. I did think that this thread was here to discuss the reviews without the reviewer getting angry at any criticism concerning them. I've liked your reviews in the past so I didn't mean to bash you as a reviewer personally, I was only stating my feelings concerning this one review.

Again, I'm sorry that you felt that I was attacking you personally in my comments concerning your review. I assure you that my comments were soley about the review itself.

I am the Superman

01-29-2006, 12:15 PM

The episode obviously had IMMENSE POTENTIAL to be one of the best of the series, but since the producers dont care about the shows writing anymore, it failed miserably. They rushed everything in this episode, its almost like the tv was in fast forward. This episode should of been a 90 minute special, no dout about it. There was to much to cover in 1 hour.

The proposal scene is the one that sticks out in my mind. SO MUCH DIALOG COULD OF BEEN SAID BETWEEN CLARK AND LANA RIGHT THERE, but how did it play out? all that happend was a puzzled look from lana and clark just staring at her for a minute. Then we see clark "float" lana up to a peak and QUICKLY "POP" the question. Gosh, i liked the thought of the whole sequence, but as i was watching it im like geeze thats all they are going to say? thats all hes going to tell her.

If i were clark i would of told lana everything id been wanting to tell her all these years, I mean good god man shes been putting you down all this time and now that you finally have a chance to get a little bit if recognition and apologys you dont even tell her one incident?

Clark: Lana, ive been wanting to tell you for so long, you have no idea. Its been so hard for me to keep this from you all this time because ive loved you since the first time i set eyes on you. Remember the tornado? I was there, i was the one who pulled you from it. Remember that weird ass bug guy who wanted to mate with you? I was there, remember ahh hell i dont even remember how many times hes saved her from death.

Bottom line is this show is ruining an opportunity to have the best show on television each and every week. I just wish i was a consultant for the show or somthing good god.

BELLAT

01-29-2006, 12:21 PM

Arista 07

01-29-2006, 12:50 PM

I normally don't read your reviews, Triplet. I recall doing so once and found them to be somewhat lacking and unqualified to be deemed a review. That said, with kryptonsite updated with news of your review and that you, indeed, loved "Reckoning" I was intrigued. I expected explanation as to why you like the episode. Perhaps, there was something I missed or a perspective I didn't consider. Instead I read intense evaluation of the acting and general statements like these:

This is probably one of Smallville's best episodes and in terms of impact to the show's series long character arc for Clark, it is certainly the most pivotal one so far. It was an important episode on so many levels and there was nothing in it that disappointed.
That were not elaborated.

I can't speak on all of your reviews because, as I've mentioned, I am not a habitual reader. However, your Reckoning review did, IMO, seem shallow, very generic. You loved it! Yet, your reasoning was not conveyed. Not to say that a reason is necessary, for sometimes we tend like the unexplained. However, I expect, at the very least, rationale from a reviewer.

I forgot to mention, that I did appreciate your first paragraph and the attempt at criticism. Though, I found it very forgiving and even contradictory. You refer to the "reboot" as a gimmick. Within the next sentence, it's not a mind-whipping contrivance? You mean to tell me, from a writer's perspective, the "do-over" was not intended to correct Lana and Lex's knowledge of Clark's secret?

boonaducious

01-29-2006, 12:54 PM

I don't like to hit other people's opinions, but if it happens enough on a thread I feel like I need to take a defensive position.

I for one loved the episode and I agree with Triplet's review completely, as well as Bellat's earlier comment. I don't think that bashing Triplet is the way to go. You can bash me if you want since I liked the episode too, just don't bash Triplet. She has an opinion and she decided to look past the tiny flaws of the episode and enjoy it for what it was. I for one was confused after I watched the episode, but after thinking about it I began to understand and appreciate it a little better.

As for Clark's "selfishness", you have to consider this question: What would YOU do? Imagine that the love of your life has just died suddenly and painfully and it has delivered such a shock to your system that you can't think straight. You are desperate and you go to the only place you can go to for help. I know that if I were in that situation, I would have done the same thing. You're probably lying to yourself if you say that you would never do that.

We also have to remember that there was a deleted scene in which Clark took his dad to the fortress of solitude to try and save him too, and it was probably cut because they did not get that extra half-hour. (grrr WB)

Another point of contention that I've noticed was the death of Jonathan. I didn't think it was a bad time for it. I thought it was a great way to go out. I would have been happier with the deleted FoS scene, but whatever. That's TV and it ain't gonna change.

In many incarnations, Pa Kent's death helps Clark become Superman. Because of that, I have heard so many people on K-site say that Jonathan should die, but now we have a complete turnaround in that opinion. I think that it's because people love to find reasons to complain, but that's common sense by now. There is also the fact that the WB has advertisers who go crazy with these trailers and build up to something that the fans really did want to see, which was "big, bad Lana" biting the dust. (I don't really get that characterization by the way) I think that the WB and NBC need to tone down these misleading trailers, mostly because it causes reactions like this.

Let me just say where I'm coming from. I had watched an incredible Veronica Mars episode two days before Reckoning and I still thought it was great, so no one can throw the "you don't know good TV" arguement at me. (I know it hasn't been done on this thread, but I have heard it before from many JW worshippers)

As far as I know everyone I talked to who is not a member of this site loved the episode and people they talked to loved it as well. We also have to consider that Smallville became the most popular show on TV.com after this episode aired and it also went from a 8.9 to a 9.0 in overall ranking on the same site. I know that K-site isn't too fond of the show, but a majority of the general public liked it. I'm not saying that it's bad to not like the episode. I can understand why, but I'm just saying that we should agree to disagree and not rip other people's opinions to shreads. I hope I haven't offended anybody, but I just hope that we can all be grown-ups.

tejdog1

01-29-2006, 01:38 PM

I think everyone who has a problem has it for a few specific reasons (me included). I'll come back to this and flesh it out later, since I have to go to college in a little bit (yes, on a Sunday, oy).

1. Can we please let things be permanent on this show? Lex's knowing in Shattered/ gone in Asylum. (I understand that)
2. Lana's dead ... oh wait, it was in the future, we can save her
3. Chloe's dead...oh wait, she's ALIVE (I'm a Chloe fan, but still...)
4. Lex knows...but wait, it was Bad Lex, and of course he wouldn't remember once he's put back together

And many more I've forgotten. For ONCE, let Clark DEAL with emotional issues. And enough of this damn reset button! Aside from that - the first half of this episode was a 10+ on my scale. It was perfection - even if it was rushed. The reveal, the proposal, the acceptance, the scene in the mansion (why exactly did Lana go to Lex, BDA rub off much? She'd just gotten EVERYTHING she'd ever wanted, and she runs to Lex? WAKE UP SWEETIE - and I hate Lana, fyi). The crash, Clark's bloodied hand and Jon there pulling him away might've been the most emotional scene for me since Ryan's "I'm dying Clark". They had it there - everything everyone had wanted to see. Clana fans are happy, they got to see the ultimate sign of Clark's love. Anti-Lana fans are happy - they got to see her go splat on Route 40. Chlark fans think they have a chance, so do Clois fans. And that is *still* a shock, because everyone and their half brother's cousin thrice removed thought Jon would be the penultimate death. OK...more later, college time (bleh).

boygenius

01-29-2006, 01:49 PM

Cool review triplet but the episode deserved a 4 out of 5 because it lacked some intensity that we've seen in some other crucial episodes

Randarch

01-29-2006, 02:05 PM

Ooh- Ooh! "Wreckoning"!

That about says it all. in my opinion.

Synergy

01-29-2006, 03:01 PM

I agree with those of you who dislike Triplet's review. I can't believe she gave it a 5 out of 5. It was the worst episode to date and may have signed Smallville's death warrent. Many viewers are tuning out and vewiers tuning out equals plummeting ratings. Only time will tell, but it looks like TPTB have screwed with the viewers one too many times.

lyric96

01-29-2006, 03:04 PM

Originally posted by Synergy
I agree with those of you who dislike Triplet's review. I can't believe she gave it a 5 out of 5. It was the worst episode to date and may have signed Smallville's death warrent. Many viewers are tuning out and vewiers tuning out equals plummeting ratings. Only time will tell, but it looks like TPTB have screwed with the viewers one too many times.

agreed, except JK death nothing really happened : back to normal. I give 3 on 5 because of the wonderfull introduction of Clark and Lana in the FOS (rushed but fair)

Miss L

01-29-2006, 03:15 PM

I always look forward to your reviews, Triplet, because they are so positive. You're a fan, I'm a fan, and I'm sure we both have questions about why TPTB did this or that, but we're still curious to see where the story goes and how the actors handle their characters in that story.

I would have liked this episode to be longer. It did feel rushed.

I totally agree with you about the good acting in this episode. one example: Tom's portrayal of devastation at Lana's unexpected and horrific death was heartwrenching. And then Clark's stoic, bottled grief at the death of his father (which he must have realized was inevitable given Jo-rel's statements) was crystal clear. I really felt that he had the same amount of grief at both deaths, but the circumstances were different, so his reactions were different.

Thanks for your insight, Triplet.

gypsygal

01-29-2006, 04:15 PM

I also liked Triplets review. I thought the episode was fantastic.

I think some fans expect too much of an episode that is really only about 43 minutes long, it did seemed a bit rushed at times but thats what you get when you have to leave certain scenes on the cutting room floor for the sake of time.

I have never been much of a superman fan before smallville, so when I started watching it I took the show for what it is, 43 minutes a week of entertainment. If i put too many expectations on it, then I might get dissapointed, so I don't.

don't get me wrong, there have been plenty of moments when I have said "what the heck were they thinking?" but that has happened on alot of shows I watch.

After 5 years of watching, I know by now exactly what to expect from Gough and Miller. Nothing award winning, (except maybe the acting on episodes such as this one, i thought Tom and especially Annette were fabulous) or refreshingly new, just good solid fun and entertainment.

I would love to see Gough and miller step up and take some big risks and just go for it, but apparently they won't.

I still love the show, this episode and anytime something can take me away just for a little while from all my own troubles and worries and give me something to look forward to each week.

Saber

01-29-2006, 04:22 PM

I didn’t agree with the review but I show consideration for her point of view.

triplet

01-29-2006, 04:39 PM

Originally posted by Arista 07
I normally don't read your reviews, Triplet. I recall doing so once and found them to be somewhat lacking and unqualified to be deemed a review. That said, with kryptonsite updated with news of your review and that you, indeed, loved "Reckoning" I was intrigued. I expected explanation as to why you like the episode. Perhaps, there was something I missed or a perspective I didn't consider. Instead I read intense evaluation of the acting and general statements like these:

That were not elaborated.

I can't speak on all of your reviews because, as I've mentioned, I am not a habitual reader. However, your Reckoning review did, IMO, seem shallow, very generic. You loved it! Yet, your reasoning was not conveyed. Not to say that a reason is necessary, for sometimes we tend like the unexplained. However, I expect, at the very least, rationale from a reviewer.

I forgot to mention, that I did appreciate your first paragraph and the attempt at criticism. Though, I found it very forgiving and even contradictory. You refer to the "reboot" as a gimmick. Within the next sentence, it's not a mind-whipping contrivance? You mean to tell me, from a writer's perspective, the "do-over" was not intended to correct Lana and Lex's knowledge of Clark's secret?

Well, I thought how much I talked about the acting, writing, special F/X and photography might have been a clue on what exactly made this such a terrific episode for me.

In addition to an emotionally devastating story, Souders and Peterson wrote some of the best act break cliff-hangers ever, and I said so in my review.

The performances Tom and the rest of the cast put in were some of the best ever, and I said so in my review.

The photography was beautiful with extremely effective use of slow motion which especially helped to build the emotional impact of Jonathan's funeral and I said so...

I talked about a lot of reasons I loved this episode, so I'm not sure why I have such affection for this episode isn't clear to anyone who read my review....

thissucks

01-29-2006, 04:44 PM

I fully agree with the 5/5 rating!!!

that is 5 ********-points of maximum 5 ********-points

TECHWON

01-29-2006, 05:07 PM

THIS WAS FABTASTIC EPISODE AND IT WAS AMAZING TO WATCH BECAUSE IT WAS THE ONE THAT TOOK 4 SEASONS AND THIS PROLLY THE BEST SEASON OF SMALLVILLE. WHAT I DID LIKE IS THE ACTING WAS SUPERB IN THIS EPISODE. I THINK THE STORYLINE WAS VERY GOOD A LIL OVERDONE AND GREAT OMAGE TO CHRISTOPHER REEVE'S SUPERMAN. I CANNOT WAIT TIL CLARK LEARNS TO FLY AND USE HIS COLD BREATH. OVER ALL THIS WAS THE EPISODE THAT KEPT ME GLUED TO CHAIR MAN KEEP UP SMALLVILLE.
PEACE

Arista 07

01-29-2006, 05:13 PM

Originally posted by triplet
Well, I thought how much I talked about the acting, writing, special F/X and photography might have been a clue on what exactly made this such a terrific episode for me.
Well, as a casual reader, if that, I had no idea writing, continuity, subject matter, etc. are not apart of your rating scale. Had I known it was all about acting and cinematography, I wouldn't have bothered reading or replying.

In addition to an emotionally devastating story, Souders and Peterson wrote some of the best act break cliff-hangers ever, and I said so in my review.
However, my post was referring more so to statements like the above. You know, statements that actually address episodic content, like writing. It's just a blanketed, general "fluff" comment with no substance and no explanation.

puddinpiester

01-29-2006, 05:21 PM

Triplet, thank-you for your review. I appreciate you taking the time and effort to write your reviews. Often you mention things that I failed to pick up on when I watch the episode. I also like that your review was positive. Too much negativity. I have yet to watch a perfect show on any series. Smallville entertains me, I look forward to the next new episode, and I chuckle to myself when I read some of these posts. Obviously, people are still watching the show. And all this emotion that the show inspires, both good and bad. Wow, I choose to believe that a series, a show, or an episode that can stir up so much emotion must be doing something right. I enjoyed the episode even with any flaws which may have been there. My biggest problem was that the epi was too rushed. I rarely get so involved in a show, but I must admit that I feel a certain sadness at the events in Reckoning. Not just JK's death, but Clarks all consuming guilt, Chloe's pain at seeing her good friend so heartbroken, Martha's loss, and the audience's loss and disappointments as well. I'm ready to move on to Vengence.

Nerial

01-29-2006, 06:41 PM

Sorry, Triplet--not this time.

I normally agree with you on the reviews, (and appreciate the opinion), but this episode was just a mess of various problems.

I will say, I have not given the acting any credit, and I should. Everyone did wonderful (especially Tom and Annette) with the acting--it's the STORY that's the problem.

I've already said it in other threads, so I'm going to be general, but nine times out of ten, time reversal used in a story is a cop-out. That's why it's frowned upon--even guidelines for sci-fi magazines state that using things like 'god-like beings coming down to save the hero" is something they don't want from writers. Stories for five buck magazines get rejected over crap like this, and it's stuck in a multi-million dollar series?

And, that's what happened--Jor-El is a god-like being and he had the tools.

gneisskathy

01-29-2006, 06:46 PM

I loved your review Triplet. I read them every week, but I don't post here alot. I like that you go for other aspects of the episodes besides the storyline. Your reviews usually make me see the acting, f/x, photography..etc that I would normally not really think about and most of the time I agree with you after reading and rewatching the episodes (not always though). If I want to know if the storyline was good or bad...well that I do notice and can judge on my own. If I want other opinions, I simply come here to read what everyone else thouht. Personally, I liked the epsiode. It made me mad at first like you, but then grew on me. I really feel that most people that are upset over it are shippers. It seems that many people wanted Lana to find out and keep that knowledge or the opposite shippers who wanted to see her dead. So maybe it was hyped too much as "everything you wanted to see", since many wanted to see her know for good or see her gone. There was no way to please everyone with such a huge rift between people. I haven't seen many people who are not in one camp or another. Me though, I love the whole concept of superman in the making and am not a shipper in any way. I see promising and intriguing future storylines with how it was left. Clark embracing his destiny, Lex becoming the evil man he must become, Lionel being a MB and pursuing Martha, Lois growing as a character, the uncertainty of what will happen with Chloe, and even Lana and how the events will change her character and how Lex will try to win her over, hurting Clark in the process. I look forward to the rest of the season and to your future reviews. Thank you.

ClarkBar

01-29-2006, 07:37 PM

Good review Triplet. Keep writing them the way you see it. Nothing wrong with liking the show.:)

ClarkBar

KRAM-el

01-29-2006, 07:41 PM

Triplet, yes, I'm back. After reading further posts, I feel the need to respond to some of the unanswered questions and topics left dangling...

First and foremost, my sincere apologies on my part for the "TPTB pocketbook" comment, however, it was taken completely out-of-context and would hope that in retrospect you will have seen that by now. I had no idea you were so touchy -- I'll never make that mistake again.

Along those lines, it seems upon reading my initial post that you ignored many of the "parantheticals" that alter the meanings of the phrases they surround. I opened the post w/ a compliment (somehow missed) & ended in much the same way (missed or ignored). All I did was disagree.

Your dander was up, & that was when the true 'bashing' began (I felt like I had been bitten by a rattlesnake -- excuse me while I go suck out the poison)... I never made ANY negative references to your personal character, & like many, I've never met you, do not know you, so for all I know you are the sweetest person in the world. Yet it was you in defense mode that was adamant that I state my reasons for my disagreement on a line-by-line basis. I offered you a solution, but you did not take me up on it for time-constraint reasons (I have little extra time myself, so I can definitely empathize) which I can accept.

I respect you for making the review, and sticking your neck out as a result. I would welcome & relish such an opportunity myself (perhaps as an opposing or additional viewpoint?). I must also take issue with the "positive attitude" issue brought up in some of the posts in your defense. A reviewer should be objective (neutral) and not positive OR negative. Perhaps my viewpoint was seen as negative because I did not like it -- and was furious with it (and after multiple viewings am still - if not more so).

As to my actual issues w/ the episode (I can't possibly go into them all. But here, for your consideration & satisfaction, is the Cliff-notes version):

Story first:
The opening sequence was far too rushed, & Lana took both the transferrance and the proposal too easily, w/ no fear at all.
Too much was left unexplained, and considering her character development so far, there was no way she was going to "buy into" CK's honesty so quickly, but she goes against character...
The ring thing was plagiarism of Donner3, and when did CK develop not only the power to make the diamond, but to cut it as well? Great scene for a 13 year-old, but a bit of a stretch for me.
CK is next at the barn, & informs his parents of his intentions - they accept his choice w/o the normal fear & concern they've shown before - despite MK's comment just an ep before "maybe she's not the one for you, Clark" (oops, forgot we did that).
JK proceeds to do his "I'll be dead before the sun sets" monologue, killing ANY surprise that the writers have any nerve at all, & setting up a predictable chain of events...
CK goes to his best friend, who still holds feelings for him, & he KNOWS it, for Dear Abby advice (is he kidding?).
Lana has her exchange w/ Lois in the DAYTIME... (see below)
JK wins the election (no surprise there, either) & Lana, newly engaged (she has by this time accepted) does not even include herself in the photo ops, but instead answers Lex' call & goes to see him? It has to be an affect of all her concussions because no one in their right mind would do this, & she & Lex have not had a great history up to this point. but she does it anyway.
JK wins, gets a call, Lana has her exchange w/ Lex (who instead of his usual egomaniacal self, is suddenly a pathetic drunk) splits, is chased and... (here it actually gets good for a few brief moments)... Then, FOS. Weak and spineless Clark pleading to save her.. he can't see beyond the end of his nose for her (and no, I don't buy the 18 or distraught crutches, I've seen adolescents w/ TWICE the maturity) and what happens? Jor-El provides him w/ the "get out of jail free" card. He even warns CK that it can only be used once "be mindful of your choice" but he doesn't hesitate (maybe a little time to think about it Clark? Even you gave Lana time... maybe it might come in handy for a more important use someday, like saving the world from WWIII Lex) & grabs it like the Oh-so PC BDA the writers have made him into. That's not romantic -- that's not desperate -- that's stupid.
Anyway, rewind. Now he chickens out & doesn't tell her ( if fear paralyzes him this much, he'll NEVER be SM). Angst City again... (yawn). CK replays his Chlark scene ONLY so Chloe can get in her one-liner (and a doozy - she did do it well - I love Chloe) that TPTB JUST couldn't resist (groan)... *bows to Donner*
Lana is again at the JK party (why on earth? Is this girl brain-dead or what?). It is now 11PM, CK goes up to save Lois (the water's been running for 6 hours but the whole place isn't under water (it must be running down one of those plot holes).
Instead of making preps in advance, he lets Lana slip away again (once again, the writers making him look like a blithering idiot who can't find his way out of a paper bag) & therefore has to go & "make like a hero" & stop the bus, but then runs & hides (cluck cluck). His father who has just won an election drives by, but CK ignores it due to his 'Lana blinders' (where would JK be going? Aren't you the least bit curious, Clark?) Setting up his (whether it would have been inevitable or not) "shocking death". An admirable (if again rushed) death scene, an overly emotional Mother-Son talk, which although well-played, could have been taken for granted w/ just the 2 coming out of the house hand in hand... To a final snowy replay of the Fordman patriarch funeral... w/ an unbalance of emotion compared w/ other scenes in this same ep. And again, the ever-present Lana is center-stage. It just could have had much-more impact done any number of more "risky" and unsettling" ways, but they went for the predictable, and it was boring. I knew JK would die in the first few minutes, I knew by the halfway point that the timewarp would happen, and BDA Clark would pull all the teenybopper's heartstrings by saving his beloved Lana, but betray her in the end. Sad. Just sad. Just like this sad sack of a Clark we have become accustomed to. CK is on his journey to being a Superhero - but I can't get behind him... he actually pushes me into the antagonist's (Lex's) corner. His fight is expended, & he has fallen to grovelling. Not pretty.

Now for the "nuts & bolts". Masterfully shot (at least the exterior scenes). AM & AOT were standouts as always; JG was kept by the "rushing" & limited writing to shine fully; JS was good, but I've seen him much better; TW was fantastic in some scenes (the accident was his best ever), but shaky in others (and I place that more on ineffective writing than his talent); MR had to painfully suffer from his poorly-written lines, but at least in his professionalism he didn't fall on his face; ED was good - above average; and sadly (and I know I'm going to get rocks thrown at me for this) KK took up the rear, distantly (one exception - her "eyes as big as saucers" look before the bus crash). And she fell back into that "nodding" thing - that drives me NUTS! The only episode in which she actually took my breath away in was when she was Louise... unfortunately, she has yet to recapture that magic.

So, there it is, in black and white. All jabs and kidding aside, I give it a 2 out of 5, and that is being EXTREMELY generous. Again, this is only MY opinion, & has about as much value as a Crackerbox ring. I WAS disapointed. As an adult fan of Superman, a writer, and a casual viewer, I was disapointed. And for the future history of Smallville, however long it may be, I seek only one thing... to not be disapointed. Good luck to me.

tejdog1

01-29-2006, 07:56 PM

I give it a 6.5 out of 10, but that's being EXTRAORDINAIRLY generous on my part. Really, this was two episodes. The first half, which was truly EVERYTHING we've wanted to see, and the second half, which was rehashed, reguretated drivel. Absoultely PATHETIC how this episode transpired from about the 20 minute mark. They had a chance here, to DEFINE how a large chunk of this new Infinite Crisis would've gone, and they BLEW IT. This show sunk on Thursday - it sunk hard, and fast. And yes, one episode can do that. When it's this important - this HYPED, it can. Hey, remember Shattered? "You can't miss the final 5 minutes". Well - you couldn't. That was a true GEM, stunning, breathtaking, and beautiful. This was recycled crap in a new suit. Or, to put it in my idol's words "same old trailer trash in new shoes". We were promised a 'shocking death'. Um...no?

The acting? Superb. As I said in my first post in this thread - the scene with Jon and Clark at Lana's crash was just...words can't describe it - it was gold. Pure gold. Lana wasn't as astounded and shocked as I thought she would be in the FOS, but she was OK, IMO. But what happened to "I'd be a little freaked out" (Visitor). And spare me - there has been NO character progression with her - she's gone nowhere. Chloe, well...she was golden, as well. She's got to absorb this slobber from both ends - Clark and Lana, and she holds up really well. She LOVES Clark, and she has to hear him whine and complain about Lana's love, etc...whatever. I would've told Clark to shove himself into a kryptonite locker a long time ago. I do wish she'd stand up to Clark for once and tell him not to come to her with relationship problems, but whatever. The acting was on point for the most part.

The story was horrible, but I covered that already.

6.5 is being generous. But that's how I see it. 10+ for the first half, 2 for the second half, averages out. Peace.

Serene

01-29-2006, 08:02 PM

First and foremost, my sincere apologies on my part for the "TPTB pocketbook" comment, however, it was taken completely out-of-context and would hope that in retrospect you will have seen that by now. I had no idea you were so touchy -- I'll never make that mistake again.

LOL! Well if that isn't the most backhanded apology I've ever seen. Seriously.. why even bother?

I enjoyed reading Triplet's review, despite not agreeing with every point made. My objections were obviously not enough to motivate me to add to the sarcastic snark-fest going on in this thread. You didn't like the review.. we get it. Presenting your reasons 'why' should be possible without taking things to such an insulting (and I include the passive/aggressive sarcasm in that) level.

It's one review, and personally, I don't think there should be any consideration of appeasing the general masses. Good luck finding ANY review of this episode that will make the majority of the SV fandom happy. I don't think it's possible. This episode is the subject of much heated debate in just about every SV (and even Superman) forum out there... not to mention the LJ and Usenet communities. It's a big wide world of extreme opinions out there, and this is just one review. Love it or hate, but there's no reason to be insulting, and I'm certainly not directing that solely at you, KRAM-el.

firefly2000

01-29-2006, 08:29 PM

I agree with 5 out of 5 stars. The episode was a visual feast for the eyes. I had to remind myself to breathe at times.

Michael was amazing as usual. The loooks he gets on his face just floor me at times. You really believe he's Lex and I don't think he's ever failed to deliver on that count.

Tom was truly spectacular. His emotions rolled off like a wave and were almost palpable through the TV.

John Schnieder will be missed but he played out his final episode like the hero I love.

Annette is my pick for overall best performance. Watching her gave me a lump in my throat the size of a baseball. Her struggle to deal with the loss of Jonathon was breathtaking and honorable, something I've come to expect from her. The scene with the pearls makes me tear up just remembering it. I was a mess by the time the credits rolled.

BRAVO!!! It's what I've come to expect from the show I love.

KRAM-el

01-29-2006, 08:43 PM

Originally posted by Serene
there's no reason to be insulting, and I'm certainly not directing that solely at you, KRAM-el.

Serene, I truly do not believe I was insulting (I know you do not agree) but my "humor" was overlooked... I DO feel I was insulted initially (I begged to differ on someone's opinion, & stuck my finger in a light socket). I apologized more than once & got accused of being "backhanded" -- Thanks. I supplied what was asked for (what I found wrong w/ the ep -- & did it in my own inimitable way) & got slapped again. What am I to do? I guess if you have any kind of dissenting opinion on anything, especially if it initiates from a K-site contibutor, you should just let it go for the risk of retribution. I'll be sure to think twice next time, & maybe the others should follow my lead. No one that agreed w/ her review has even come close to being bashed.. :( Peace out.

twelfthnight1

01-29-2006, 08:47 PM

I loved the episode too, Triplet. Thank you for sharing it with us (and your "Lockdown" review - aw, I was hoping for 5 stars, but 4 is still good. Pst, I give it 5. Just for the Lex/Lana!).

As was said though, I do wish the episode was longer. Can someone explain why it wasn't? I mean, they made sure that "Commencement" was longer and that was fantastic. I did love "Reckoning", but if it were longer - I can't imagine. Thanks again.

vyperman7

01-29-2006, 08:58 PM

Triplet,

I usually agree with your reviews, but I completely dissagree with you on this one.

To say that there was nothing in this episode that dissapointed, is just not true in my opinion.

In the end with the acception of JK's death, nothing changed. If anything, the progress of the show reversed.

My thoughts on the episode :

- It should have been two hours. It was too much to fit into an hour long episode. They had to rush through things that would have come off much better if they had more time to unfold. Take the reveal to Lana for example. Instead of getting her reaction, sharing past experiences, etc.. We got a rushed acceptance. I would have also liked for Clark to have gone into more detail as well about Krypton exploding, being responsible for the meteor shower, etc.. It was just too rushed.

- Lex finding out about Clark. While we already got to see this in S1's "Hug" and S3's "Shattered" we at least got to hear Lex's thoughts on the matter. It was such a letdown to not be able to get more out of it, than just seeing Lex gasp. Once again, this plays into the fact that the episode was far too rushed. They did not have the time to go into it.

The whole first half would have come off so much better if it had more time. We could have gotten more fallout from Lana's death which would have let the viewer soak it all in before Clark went to the FOS, more out of Lex finding out about Clark, and much more out of the reveal of the secret to Lana.

Then there was the lamest copout in the history of the show - time reversal.

I might have been able to let the writers off more, if they had let Lana still know the truth. Lana being at risk for knowing the truth, was always true, and it still didn't stop Clark from telling her the first time around. Therefore, it would have been a lot better if Clark had still told Lana the truth, and then just used his knowledge of when and where the accident was to keep her alive. That way, something majorly would have finally changed, and the episode would not have come off feeling so pointless.

In my opinion, JK's death was for nothing.

I don't think I have ever been as dissapointed as I was after seeing an episode of Smallville, then I was with Reckoning. I have been frustrated before like with Swann getting the key in Legacy, and there were episodes I disliked like Resurrection, Magnetic, etc.. But I still felt good about the show.

Reckoning was the first episode ever to utterly dissapointment me.

triplet

01-29-2006, 10:24 PM

Jeez, this thread is making my head hurt and I am regretting asking Craig to let me do these...

I will come back when I'm in a less seige-mentality frame of mind.

I've been having a lousy day and this **** ain't helping, maybe tomorrow I'll be in a less defensive mood.

vyperman7

01-29-2006, 10:29 PM

Triplet,

You shouldn't regret asking Craig, because your insights are usually dead on in my opinion. I just disagreed with you on this episode.

tejdog1

01-29-2006, 11:17 PM

I hope nothing I said contributed to that feeling, Triplet. All those who insult you for your views aren't worth the time, IMO.

mfluder

01-29-2006, 11:17 PM

Originally posted by triplet
What sort of insight were you looking for?

I think these threads sometimes turn into a bash-triplet-o-rama, whether it is incidentally or on purpose, but the reason I like to see people post in here is to see how people's opinions differ from mine but all I'm seeing is that your opinion is different and not why.

Why do you think there were plot holes?

What do you think was "actually happening that prompted such peformances?"

I'm not especially good at writing profound commentary and my reviews deal more with the nuts and bolts of episodes partly because of that. When I do try to be profound, I usually fail miserably so don't wish for that: you don't want to read it. Believe me.

I have problems articulating that kind of thing... if you can do better, go right ahead. I would love to hear your thoughts on this episode. Maybe I'll learn something...

Stating up front this is *not* a personal attach against you at all... no bash-o-rama against Triplet by any means, but a review of the review itself. (And for the record I don't think any dissenting opinions were a bashing of yourself, but a comment on the review only. I'm sorry if you've taken it all personally, but I don't believe anybody intended it.)

To get back to your questions:

The type of insight I'd expect in a review of any episode of a series of movie - most particularly of a series where there is series history to reflect back on when discussing the latest events - is the type that question what has happened, how it fits into series history and possible future, whether the writers were consistent with character in how the events played out and the lines they were given. Yes, commenting on the performances is always relevant, but I don't believe any review should focus just on that.

To be specific, the things that could have been commented on to make it a well-rounded review are:

* was the death of Jonathan truly necessary in this SV universe?
* did the death truly serve a purpose?
* was the revelation to Lana satisfactory given we've been building up to this moment for almost 4 1/2 years?
* why does Clark suddenly have "make a diamond and forge a ring" powers?
* If he's had this power, why not make more and get the farm out of debt?
* were Jonathan's and Martha's reactions to their son's announcment in keeping with their characters?
* how truly surprising was the real death?
* were Clark's actions (sacrificing anybody to save Lana) in keeping with his true nature, and in keeping with the nature of someone who will go on to be the savior of the planet?
* what about the time discrepencies re: Lois?
* what was natural in Lana leaving Clark's side in going to see Lex?
* Why was Lex on his own and not with all his supporters at the same time Jonathan was given the announcement was so fresh?
* What justified the use of ye ol' turn back time device to reset Clark and Lana's relationship back to being worse than it was in season 1?
* What justified - truly justified - Clark not telling Lana the second time round and just stopping her from seeing Lex?
* Why was so much of import rushed into 40+ minutes when at least a 2-episode arc was warranted?
* Why the heck can't the writers give Clark and Lana at least more than one episode of true happiness in their relationship?

There's more... and perhaps I'll find time later tonight to write it out so I can better explain what I'd look for in a review.

I'm not saying that what you said was bad at all - I do think the performances overall were good, and certainly cinematography etc was good, but the "nuts and bolts" to me are buried in the impact of the story and the development of character in the Smallville universe. Afterall, if Clark ran off to join the circus instead of fulfilling his destiny, would it still be considered a good episode if TW acted it well, but the action itself defied all character development and story to date? To me, no.

I will write more tonight (though I've articulated much in another thread).

mfl

MuchaLana

01-30-2006, 12:05 AM

I agree with Triplet review except for the episode being the best. I love Hidden.
Superman fans are hard to please...I am not one...so I was even hoping for Lois to die just cuase she is nothing in the show.Get her out of the show please...Lionel do something!
:p

BELLAT

01-30-2006, 06:31 AM

So, there it is, in black and white. All jabs and kidding aside, I give it a 2 out of 5, and that is being EXTREMELY generous. Again, this is only MY opinion, & has about as much value as a Crackerbox ring. I WAS disapointed. As an adult fan of Superman, a writer, and a casual viewer, I was disapointed. And for the future history of Smallville, however long it may be, I seek only one thing... to not be disapointed. Good luck to me.
Seems like you should jump ship now, if you haven't "gotten it" by now, Smallville will only continue to disappoint you.

Originally posted by vyperman7
Triplet,

I usually agree with your reviews, but I completely dissagree with you on this one.

To say that there was nothing in this episode that dissapointed, is just not true in my opinion.

In the end with the acception of JK's death, nothing changed. If anything, the progress of the show reversed.

My thoughts on the episode :

- It should have been two hours. It was too much to fit into an hour long episode. They had to rush through things that would have come off much better if they had more time to unfold. Take the reveal to Lana for example. Instead of getting her reaction, sharing past experiences, etc.. We got a rushed acceptance. I would have also liked for Clark to have gone into more detail as well about Krypton exploding, being responsible for the meteor shower, etc.. It was just too rushed.

- Lex finding out about Clark. While we already got to see this in S1's "Hug" and S3's "Shattered" we at least got to hear Lex's thoughts on the matter. It was such a letdown to not be able to get more out of it, than just seeing Lex gasp. Once again, this plays into the fact that the episode was far too rushed. They did not have the time to go into it.

The whole first half would have come off so much better if it had more time. We could have gotten more fallout from Lana's death which would have let the viewer soak it all in before Clark went to the FOS, more out of Lex finding out about Clark, and much more out of the reveal of the secret to Lana.

Then there was the lamest copout in the history of the show - time reversal.

I might have been able to let the writers off more, if they had let Lana still know the truth. Lana being at risk for knowing the truth, was always true, and it still didn't stop Clark from telling her the first time around. Therefore, it would have been a lot better if Clark had still told Lana the truth, and then just used his knowledge of when and where the accident was to keep her alive. That way, something majorly would have finally changed, and the episode would not have come off feeling so pointless.

In my opinion, JK's death was for nothing.

I don't think I have ever been as dissapointed as I was after seeing an episode of Smallville, then I was with Reckoning. I have been frustrated before like with Swann getting the key in Legacy, and there were episodes I disliked like Resurrection, Magnetic, etc.. But I still felt good about the show.

Reckoning was the first episode ever to utterly dissapointment me.
In response to this, I'll just repost what I wrote in my LJ. With one aside, yes it should have been 2 hrs, is that the writers and the producers of SMallville's fault? I seriously doubt it.

It was not about Clana
It was not about Lana knowing the secret
It was not about Lex knowing the secret
It was not about Clark being insensitive to Chloe for telling him he's engaged
It was not about Clark killing his father

It was about the man who will one day be the protector of the planet, learning the very crucial lesson that he is not God, that he has no right to tamper with fate, that there are always consequences in going against the universe. If he does not learn this, if he thinks he has the right to "fix" everything, then he will become a moral tyrant, using his power for control more than good.

Thats what Reckoning was about to me. I could be wrong, but it certainly seems more important than his girlfriend knowing his secret.

His worse fears were realized when Lana died, so of course he's not going to tell her again, and of course Lex would know if she knew the big secret, and he's never leave her alone, she'd never be safe. And if Lex knew, the series would have to end, because then Lex would be the biggest threat to him, and thus take on the super-villain mantle.

And for the record, Clark did not cause Jonathan to have a heart attack, he wasnt there, go blame Lionel if you want to blame someone. There were many choices by many different people that led to that moment. Clark probably would have had two deaths to deal with if he didn't go back to save Lana. As his mother said "the heart only beats so many times."

Why is that so hard to grasp?

KRAM-el

01-30-2006, 06:40 AM

Originally posted by BELLAT

Why is that so hard to grasp?

It sounds as though you have no room for others to express their differing opinions. Sobeit. It's not fun anymore. :rolleyes: ;) :p

BELLAT

01-30-2006, 06:54 AM

Originally posted by KRAM-el
It sounds as though you have no room for others to express their differing opinions. Sobeit. It's not fun anymore. :rolleyes: ;) :p
I do, theres lots of room, but I love the show, so I'm defending it. I just don't really get a lot of the points made is all. Express away I won't stop you:)

KRAM-el

01-30-2006, 07:01 AM

Originally posted by BELLAT
I do, theres lots of room, but I love the show, so I'm defending it. I just don't really get a lot of the points made is all. Express away I won't stop you:)

Peace. :) I love the show (or it's premise), too. That's why I'm so passionate about it myself. Just on the opposite side. ;)

Nerial

01-30-2006, 07:14 AM

I'm sorry, Bellat, but that's really not fair. The only reason anyone is on these threads is because they either love the show or the Superman mythos. I love Smallville, but I have a right to share my opinion when I feel the show did not live up to its usual standards.

I like your reasonings, that this is a hard lesson to Clark that he can't do god-like things to simply, "fix," something in his life. That's a terrific point. I also don't feel that Clark's really to blame for Jonathon's death--he was put into a situation where he couldn't win no matter what he choose.

On the others, points, however, (I can't speak for anyone else here), but...

"It was not about Clana"

I'm not a Clana fan at all. I do believe, however, that pushing the advertising for, "Clark tells all to Lana," so dramatically, and then tugging the rug right from the Clana fans' feet--even I felt their pain some.

"It was not about Lana knowing the secret"

Please re-direct to my last statement.

"It was not about Lex knowing the secret"

I didn't think Lex would find out. I just assumed they were going for the, "he was drunk," Perry White cop-out, which would have been fine with me.

"It was not about Clark being insensitive to Chloe for telling him he's engaged"

I will agree here. Chloe having feelings for Clark is NOT Clark's fault. IMO, the writers should just let the girl get over him, and find someone else for her to be with.

"It was not about Clark killing his father"

Again, I agree. My problem is, now there will be this constant guilt with Clark (probably for the rest of his life) where HE thinks he killed his dad, or at least contributed to it. That kind of regret and sadness is drifting into Batman territory.

I'm not saying that you can't enjoy the episode. Heck, there are things I liked in it, too, but nothing good usually comes from time warping, and from a lot of viewers here, I'm not the only one who feels this way.

Just to say.

ps...to Triplet--please don't stop reviewing. I love your reviews; I just didn't agree with this one.

Serene

01-30-2006, 07:37 AM

Originally posted by mfluder
(And for the record I don't think any dissenting opinions were a bashing of yourself, but a comment on the review only. I'm sorry if you've taken it all personally, but I don't believe anybody intended it.)
Obviously, I disagree with you about that particular comment, but I do want to say that I enjoyed reading the rest of your post and the points you brought up.

I do agree that there was much that could still be addressed in the review, but I also think the same could be said for the episode itself.

But as Bellat so eloquently pointed out, the primary driving force of this show is Clark's journey to becoming Superman. This episode was a marvel in that regard.

So, while I'm also frustrated with the Lana situation, I found the overall implications of this episode, as well as the execution, to be moving and profound in regards to our hero's journey.

BELLAT

01-30-2006, 07:43 AM

Originally posted by Nerial
I'm sorry, Bellat, but that's really not fair. The only reason anyone is on these threads is because they either love the show or the Superman mythos. I love Smallville, but I have a right to share my opinion when I feel the show did not live up to its usual standards.

I like your reasonings, that this is a hard lesson to Clark that he can't do god-like things to simply, "fix," something in his life. That's a terrific point. I also don't feel that Clark's really to blame for Jonathon's death--he was put into a situation where he couldn't win no matter what he choose.

On the others, points, however, (I can't speak for anyone else here), but...

"It was not about Clana"

I'm not a Clana fan at all. I do believe, however, that pushing the advertising for, "Clark tells all to Lana," so dramatically, and then tugging the rug right from the Clana fans' feet--even I felt their pain some.

"It was not about Lana knowing the secret"

Please re-direct to my last statement.

"It was not about Lex knowing the secret"

I didn't think Lex would find out. I just assumed they were going for the, "he was drunk," Perry White cop-out, which would have been fine with me.

"It was not about Clark being insensitive to Chloe for telling him he's engaged"

I will agree here. Chloe having feelings for Clark is NOT Clark's fault. IMO, the writers should just let the girl get over him, and find someone else for her to be with.

"It was not about Clark killing his father"

Again, I agree. My problem is, now there will be this constant guilt with Clark (probably for the rest of his life) where HE thinks he killed his dad, or at least contributed to it. That kind of regret and sadness is drifting into Batman territory.

I'm not saying that you can't enjoy the episode. Heck, there are things I liked in it, too, but nothing good usually comes from time warping, and from a lot of viewers here, I'm not the only one who feels this way.

Just to say.

ps...to Triplet--please don't stop reviewing. I love your reviews; I just didn't agree with this one.
I certainly didn't mean to suggest anyone with an opposing view doens't love the show, why else would you bother writing about it?
I'm just defending my view, which is probably a better way to say it.

And unfortunately, the WB promo department are not always in sync with what is actually important on the show. They push whatever angle they think will get people to watch, and it may not have been the writers intended focus. But I don't expect everyone to consider that, but its something to think about.

(the stupid "GOod sex, Bad Lex" promo for Mortal comes to mind)

And I think things were not intended to be resolved in this episode, meaning that Clark may learn to stop feeling guilty about things he can't control. Its an arrogance on his part, something he needs to unlearn. He is powerful, but everyone's fate is not in his hands. So maybe the events during Reckoning will see him learn not to put unecessary burden on his shoulders, or he'll never be able to protect anyone, he'd be too emotionally crippled.

And again, I certainly didn't mean to offend anyone, I'm just a little frustrated, forgive me:)

ryb

01-30-2006, 07:51 AM

Originally posted by mfluder
Stating up front this is *not* a personal attach against you at all... no bash-o-rama against Triplet by any means, but a review of the review itself. (And for the record I don't think any dissenting opinions were a bashing of yourself, but a comment on the review only. I'm sorry if you've taken it all personally, but I don't believe anybody intended it.)

To get back to your questions:

The type of insight I'd expect in a review of any episode of a series of movie - most particularly of a series where there is series history to reflect back on when discussing the latest events - is the type that question what has happened, how it fits into series history and possible future, whether the writers were consistent with character in how the events played out and the lines they were given. Yes, commenting on the performances is always relevant, but I don't believe any review should focus just on that.

To be specific, the things that could have been commented on to make it a well-rounded review are:

* was the death of Jonathan truly necessary in this SV universe?
* did the death truly serve a purpose?
* was the revelation to Lana satisfactory given we've been building up to this moment for almost 4 1/2 years?
* why does Clark suddenly have "make a diamond and forge a ring" powers?
* If he's had this power, why not make more and get the farm out of debt?
* were Jonathan's and Martha's reactions to their son's announcment in keeping with their characters?
* how truly surprising was the real death?
* were Clark's actions (sacrificing anybody to save Lana) in keeping with his true nature, and in keeping with the nature of someone who will go on to be the savior of the planet?
* what about the time discrepencies re: Lois?
* what was natural in Lana leaving Clark's side in going to see Lex?
* Why was Lex on his own and not with all his supporters at the same time Jonathan was given the announcement was so fresh?
* What justified the use of ye ol' turn back time device to reset Clark and Lana's relationship back to being worse than it was in season 1?
* What justified - truly justified - Clark not telling Lana the second time round and just stopping her from seeing Lex?
* Why was so much of import rushed into 40+ minutes when at least a 2-episode arc was warranted?
* Why the heck can't the writers give Clark and Lana at least more than one episode of true happiness in their relationship?

There's more... and perhaps I'll find time later tonight to write it out so I can better explain what I'd look for in a review.

I'm not saying that what you said was bad at all - I do think the performances overall were good, and certainly cinematography etc was good, but the "nuts and bolts" to me are buried in the impact of the story and the development of character in the Smallville universe. Afterall, if Clark ran off to join the circus instead of fulfilling his destiny, would it still be considered a good episode if TW acted it well, but the action itself defied all character development and story to date? To me, no.

I will write more tonight (though I've articulated much in another thread).

mfl

I agree somewhat with your overall sentiment. Reviews of a particular TV episode should focus on story development and how it fits in with the overall series. However, and this is a big however, a good review does not necessarily have to focus on this aspect of the episode if the story is not necessarily the "thing" to most talk about, whether positive or negative.

Furthermore, the problem with your expectations of a review is that many of your example questions are personal desire rather than general critique.

For example:

* Why the heck can't the writers give Clark and Lana at least more than one episode of true happiness in their relationship?

--That's a personal want and not warranted for a critical review. But my two answers to the question are Mortal and Lexmas.

Let's answer some more...

* was the death of Jonathan truly necessary in this SV universe?
--Death is rarely necessary and often random. Death does not have to be necessary. However, in this case, Jonathan's death was symbolic. A sort of passing the "adult torch" to Clark.

* did the death truly serve a purpose?
--Refer above. The purpose will probably be determined in future episodes. I don't think the death of a major character and the purpose of the death had to occur within 42 minutes.

* was the revelation to Lana satisfactory given we've been building up to this moment for almost 4 1/2 years?
--Well, as it turned out, there was no revelation, although the one we saw was pretty visually stunning. Although rushed, the scene was gorgeous and beautifully done.

But there is no revelation since the moment was erased.

This particular question is loaded with bias and hype. I wonder if there is any way to satisfy the whole audience if they've been waiting 4.5 years for a particular moment.

* why does Clark suddenly have "make a diamond and forge a ring" powers?
--Probably Fortress of Solitude -- and we can probably assume he practiced a few times since he told Lana as such.

* If he's had this power, why not make more and get the farm out of debt?
--This is a personal want, not appropriate for critical review. My guess is the correct answer is it would raise suspicions. A 19-year-old with access to diamonds with no origin -- that's a question mark of epic proportions.

* were Jonathan's and Martha's reactions to their son's announcment in keeping with their characters?
--How were they not?

* how truly surprising was the real death?
--It was not meant to be based on the structure of the episode. The episode was Socratic in nature, where the fates of everyone are quite clear minutes into the show -- the path in getting there was the real story. The basis of the episode is similar to the storytelling in Fargo and Road to Perdition (In fact, there were subtle references to both in the episode).

I don't think death has to be surprising to be effective. Which is why Fargo (e.g.) is such a profound movie. And, like Road to Perdition, the death in this episode was gripping, not necessarily shocking.

Finally, a lot of people have stated that the production crew said the death would be shocking. While a bit misleading, I suspect they meant the story that leads to the death (The format of which has certainly raised a firestorm).

* were Clark's actions (sacrificing anybody to save Lana) in keeping with his true nature, and in keeping with the nature of someone who will go on to be the savior of the planet?
--I'm not sure if Clark's actions were against true nature. He did, after all, save someone's life. And he might have been so wrought with grief that his actions were not thought out completely. He might not have expected fallout from saving Lana the way Jor-El warned him.

Finally, I'm not sure "sacrificing" is the right word. His two choices were to let Lana stay dead or to save her with the potential for death in someone else's shoes. An impossible decision. I can tell you what I would have done if my girlfriend were the one that was killed.

* what about the time discrepencies re: Lois?
--No idea what this question is referring to. Her mishap in fate #2? If so, this was evidence that fate was changing. It also separated Clark from Lana.

* what was natural in Lana leaving Clark's side in going to see Lex?
--Um, they're friends.

* Why was Lex on his own and not with all his supporters at the same time Jonathan was given the announcement was so fresh?
--This is borderline nitpicking. I can imagine he was not in the social/celebrating mood. Some candidates have been known to do that in real life, as well.

* What justified the use of ye ol' turn back time device to reset Clark and Lana's relationship back to being worse than it was in season 1?
--Lana's death, I would presume. And the fact that Clark (at that moment) believed that her death could be prevented by not proposing to her.

* What justified - truly justified - Clark not telling Lana the second time round and just stopping her from seeing Lex?
--Refer to the previous answer.

* Why was so much of import rushed into 40+ minutes when at least a 2-episode arc was warranted?
--Now that's a good question. This episode was overstuffed. I'm not sure an extra hour is warranted, though, but I could definitely see another episode for this. As it was, though, the episode never failed to engross the viewer. 84 minutes may have had less success.

My point in the above Q&A is that many of these questions are personal expectation and not generically critical and can be answered in a few sentences or less without necessarily mentioning all (or any) of the points in the actual review. Triplet wrote an excellent review and talked about the things that she thought were noteworthy.

A critic's role is to inform and to discuss a particular form of entertainment from a perspective that may not be shared by any of his/her readers. I think she did her job admirably here.

mfluder

01-30-2006, 08:22 AM

Originally posted by ryb
I agree somewhat with your overall sentiment. Reviews of a particular TV episode should focus on story development and how it fits in with the overall series. However, and this is a big however, a good review does not necessarily have to focus on this aspect of the episode if the story is not necessarily the "thing" to most talk about, whether positive or negative.

Fair enough. But I'd argue that for this particular episode the story is definitely the thing to most talk about.

Furthermore, the problem with your expectations of a review is that many of your example questions are personal desire rather than general critique..

I beg to differ, but lead on...

For example:

* Why the heck can't the writers give Clark and Lana at least more than one episode of true happiness in their relationship?

--That's a personal want and not warranted for a critical review. But my two answers to the question are Mortal and Lexmas.

No, it isn't a want, it's an observation. (Actually, for most shows, I'm more inclined to slashy bents <g>) I was merely observing that every time they've actually got Clark and Lana together, they split them up almost immediately.

Let's answer some more...

* was the death of Jonathan truly necessary in this SV universe?
--Death is rarely necessary and often random. Death does not have to be necessary. However, in this case, Jonathan's death was symbolic. A sort of passing the "adult torch" to Clark.

Gee, I'm glad my parents didn't have to die for me to become an adult. <g> This is just it. It's symbollic, but it's not necessary. The mere fact that Clark asked Lana to marry him, and Bo Kent acknowledged him as a man was enough for us to know that he's grown up and matured etc. Passing the torch was just unnecessary.

* did the death truly serve a purpose?
--Refer above. The purpose will probably be determined in future episodes. I don't think the death of a major character and the purpose of the death had to occur within 42 minutes.

I don't think it had to occur at all. :) But the point of my question - and all these questions - was that these were things that could be discussed in a review, and for such an important episode, leaving any real look at the story and its impact out of a review made it very light.

* was the revelation to Lana satisfactory given we've been building up to this moment for almost 4 1/2 years?
--Well, as it turned out, there was no revelation, although the one we saw was pretty visually stunning. Although rushed, the scene was gorgeous and beautifully done.

But there is no revelation since the moment was erased.

This particular question is loaded with bias and hype. I wonder if there is any way to satisfy the whole audience if they've been waiting 4.5 years for a particular moment.

I'll quit on this one because I didn't ask the questions because I had an opinion one way or the other. I was asked to provide an example of the type of things that could have been discussed, so I did, based on what a lot of people have thought were pertinent things to think about given the feedback on this forum. :)

mfl

Flight_Without_Wings

01-30-2006, 08:26 AM

As to my actual issues w/ the episode (I can't possibly go into them all. But here, for your consideration & satisfaction, is the Cliff-notes version):

Story first:
The opening sequence was far too rushed, & Lana took both the transferrance and the proposal too easily, w/ no fear at all.
Too much was left unexplained, and considering her character development so far, there was no way she was going to "buy into" CK's honesty so quickly, but she goes against character...
The ring thing was plagiarism of Donner3, and when did CK develop not only the power to make the diamond, but to cut it as well? Great scene for a 13 year-old, but a bit of a stretch for me.
CK is next at the barn, & informs his parents of his intentions - they accept his choice w/o the normal fear & concern they've shown before - despite MK's comment just an ep before "maybe she's not the one for you, Clark" (oops, forgot we did that).
JK proceeds to do his "I'll be dead before the sun sets" monologue, killing ANY surprise that the writers have any nerve at all, & setting up a predictable chain of events...
CK goes to his best friend, who still holds feelings for him, & he KNOWS it, for Dear Abby advice (is he kidding?).
Lana has her exchange w/ Lois in the DAYTIME... (see below)
JK wins the election (no surprise there, either) & Lana, newly engaged (she has by this time accepted) does not even include herself in the photo ops, but instead answers Lex' call & goes to see him? It has to be an affect of all her concussions because no one in their right mind would do this, & she & Lex have not had a great history up to this point. but she does it anyway.
JK wins, gets a call, Lana has her exchange w/ Lex (who instead of his usual egomaniacal self, is suddenly a pathetic drunk) splits, is chased and... (here it actually gets good for a few brief moments)... Then, FOS. Weak and spineless Clark pleading to save her.. he can't see beyond the end of his nose for her (and no, I don't buy the 18 or distraught crutches, I've seen adolescents w/ TWICE the maturity) and what happens? Jor-El provides him w/ the "get out of jail free" card. He even warns CK that it can only be used once "be mindful of your choice" but he doesn't hesitate (maybe a little time to think about it Clark? Even you gave Lana time... maybe it might come in handy for a more important use someday, like saving the world from WWIII Lex) & grabs it like the Oh-so PC BDA the writers have made him into. That's not romantic -- that's not desperate -- that's stupid.
Anyway, rewind. Now he chickens out & doesn't tell her ( if fear paralyzes him this much, he'll NEVER be SM). Angst City again... (yawn). CK replays his Chlark scene ONLY so Chloe can get in her one-liner (and a doozy - she did do it well - I love Chloe) that TPTB JUST couldn't resist (groan)... *bows to Donner*
Lana is again at the JK party (why on earth? Is this girl brain-dead or what?). It is now 11PM, CK goes up to save Lois (the water's been running for 6 hours but the whole place isn't under water (it must be running down one of those plot holes).
Instead of making preps in advance, he lets Lana slip away again (once again, the writers making him look like a blithering idiot who can't find his way out of a paper bag) & therefore has to go & "make like a hero" & stop the bus, but then runs & hides (cluck cluck). His father who has just won an election drives by, but CK ignores it due to his 'Lana blinders' (where would JK be going? Aren't you the least bit curious, Clark?) Setting up his (whether it would have been inevitable or not) "shocking death". An admirable (if again rushed) death scene, an overly emotional Mother-Son talk, which although well-played, could have been taken for granted w/ just the 2 coming out of the house hand in hand... To a final snowy replay of the Fordman patriarch funeral... w/ an unbalance of emotion compared w/ other scenes in this same ep. And again, the ever-present Lana is center-stage. It just could have had much-more impact done any number of more "risky" and unsettling" ways, but they went for the predictable, and it was boring. I knew JK would die in the first few minutes, I knew by the halfway point that the timewarp would happen, and BDA Clark would pull all the teenybopper's heartstrings by saving his beloved Lana, but betray her in the end. Sad. Just sad. Just like this sad sack of a Clark we have become accustomed to. CK is on his journey to being a Superhero - but I can't get behind him... he actually pushes me into the antagonist's (Lex's) corner. His fight is expended, & he has fallen to grovelling. Not pretty.

So, there it is, in black and white. All jabs and kidding aside, I give it a 2 out of 5, and that is being EXTREMELY generous. Again, this is only MY opinion, & has about as much value as a Crackerbox ring. I WAS disapointed. As an adult fan of Superman, a writer, and a casual viewer, I was disapointed. And for the future history of Smallville, however long it may be, I seek only one thing... to not be disapointed. Good luck to me. [/B][/QUOTE]

I agree with alot you have said above and would add a couple more just for grins.
1. Didn't the guy who saw when people died see Lana die of old age wearing the Crystal Kryptonite necklace (Lana's original necklace that was clensed by Clark's ship)? So why was she even attempting to die on that road?
2. After 100 episodes in which Clark has saved Lana in at least 90 of them(sometimes twice in a single episode), how could she ever be in any more danger by knowing his secret?
3. Everyone has said she was going to visit a friend(Lex) in need while Clark is taking pictures. That could hold true if he lived across the street, but Lex lives way out of town and we are talking at least an hour of time she would have been gone with no one knowing where she went during the supposed most important time of her life. Wouldn't someone have missed her and worried about her missing that amount of time? Clark usually has to save her if she's gone 15 minutes without someone knowing where she is.
4. Why can all the inmates of Belle Review know Clarks secret, but none of his friends can?
5. I thought Clark had learned his hard lesson "that he can't save everyone" when the little mind reader boy died? Did he suffer a memeory loss and need to learn the lesson again?
6. Why did someone need to die in this episode anyway? Because TPTB said so for better ratings? I guess they were right on that score, but doesn't really help the reasoning for this particular episode.
I am sure there are more, but got to get to work.

Cheers

triplet

01-30-2006, 09:45 AM

Yikes... I don't even know where to begin.

I don't have time to respond to all of the posts here individually, I just disagree to such a strong extent several opinions here and would like to rebut them but I got a new job I'm starting today and got stuff I need to do....

Anyway, I will try to explain myself a bit and cover some points you have made:

Should Jonathan have died?

Well, that's the big one isn't it? I think yes, he should have. I've gotten a few PM's about this as well asking what I think about it.

In current comic continuity Jonathan is still alive when Clark is off being Superman in Metropolis but that is only been like that since Crisis rebooted the DC Universe 20 years ago. The 50 or so years that make up the "pre-Crisis" world for Superman prior to that, Jonathan was usually dead before Clark graduated high school. In fact he kicked in a very touching manner that was very similar to how Jonathan bought it Smallville the other night in Christopher Reeve's first Superman film.

I'm not sure in the comics they really dealt with Clark's reaction to his father's death like they did in S:TM, but in that film the lesson Clark learned there was that despite his abilities he can't save everyone. Not even his father.

Here? I'm not sure what Clark will learn yet, we haven't seen it. He is yet to really deal with the consequences in any real way. We saw his grief and remorse when he was talking to Martha, but that was about it. However it's easy to tell from the trailer for Vengeance we'll see what he will take away from the experience next week...

The reboot/the bait and switch?

Well, I initially didn't like it too much. In fact, when I was sitting in my living room watching it I was totally dumb struck. After the horrific car accident and Clark's heart wrenching pleas (Tom rocked in that scene, no matter whether or not you thought Clark was spineless for pleading for the life of the woman he loves - I don't btw).

Anyway, it was a bit unsettling to see Clark just sitting there in the loft. It was jarring and then he went back to his usual MO and lied his ass to Lana.

This time, and I am not sure I made my point completely clear on this, is different than the other memory wiping contrivances because this time it's a do-over... Clark essentially had a clean slate. Her memory wasn't wiped because it never happened.

He knew her reactions to finally learning the secret and to him, although I'm not sure anyone else agrees (not even Chloe), there is a definite cause and effect there: when Lana learns his secret she will die. He's seen it. He'd just lived it.

I agree with what Chloe said, he can still be honest with her and then figure out some other way to save her life but for Clark I think the decision to NOT tell her the second time is an understandable one. Everyone who's known has come into some kind of danger because of him, Pete, his parents and now Lana. So his not telling her the second time wasn't a plot "hole" it's a choice.

It's a tragic choice for Clark. I mean, does he love her enough to do anything to save her? Even give her up? The answer is yes. He's sacrificing the most important thing in his life right now because he feels it's the right thing for him to do. He's doing it to protect her, he thinks. It's sad and tragic and Clark will have to deal with that decision for some time to come.

I had initially tried to talk about that in my review but for some reason it didn't come out right and the friends who read it before Craig posts it all said I wasn't making much sense there, so instead of trying to rewrite it I just cut that part altogether... Maybe I should have tried harder to make my thoughts on the matter more clear and included that section in the review. Maybe I wouldn't have been so piled upon like I've been.

*sigh*

As for the bait and switch part, I don't know what to think. I had read the spoilers online and I knew Lana wasn't going to die going in.

It didn't bother me, it's a marketing thing anyway. I'm not sure the writers and producers really have much to do with how an episode is marketed at all. They gave the schills marketing gold: A death that isn't really a death that they could tease...

I can see how that can make people angry but even if I hadn't been spoiled I think I woulda understood them doing that. The story is what matters, not the marketing ploys they use to try and get casual viewers to watch.

I know a lot of people were angry that Tom said the death would be a surprise when it wasn't really, but I think he was being disengenous. I think he knew that it wouldn't be a total surprise, they'd foreshadowed it in just the previous episode after all. He may not have thought through what he was talking about before he said it even... Who knows what he was referring to really... He seems a bit goofy sometimes.

So was Lana's reaction understandable?

I think it was. Yeah, it was rushed in the FOS and all those lies and years of her hand wringing over Clark's walling himself off from her shouldn't just disappear in a few moments like they did. But the show only has 43 minutes or so to tell it's story and that was a pretty massive secret that he revealed to her. Again, it's a choice and considering that so much seemed to cut (spoilers pointed to a great talk between Lana and Clark about who knew and why he's telling her now and what he's done, etc) I didn't really have a problem with it.

It's maybe a bit contrived, but given how much she loves him I think she would finally be willing to accept him now that she knows it all.

Diamond

I thought the diamond thing was romantic, maybe not realistic, but what is in this show?

I mean, Clark can shoot fire from his eyes and bend iron crow bars like they're made of clay... How realisitic is that?

If I dated Superman, I would love to have a one of a kind diamond like that. One he made in front of me...

I don't know, maybe it's a girl thing but I loved that part. I was curious how using heat vision set the diamond into the setting on the band but sometimes details aren't important.

Why was Lex alone?

I don't know about that one, I mean he should have been at his own election day rally unless he just left in a huff when it was clear he wasn't going to win... It's contrived, but it simplified the scene for Lex and Lana. No extraneous stuff for them to deal with..

Why did Lana go see Lex at all?

I don't know. they never explained that, but neither of those things bothered me enough to mention it in my review...

A lot of the other "plot holes" that people hated about this episode didn't get in the way of what I thought was a wondeful story. Maybe my reviews aren't always what people think they should be, but I'm not trying to articulate any consensus in my reviews. I'm trying to address the things I liked best about the show or what I felt failed.

Lately, it seems like I have had more positive reviews than negative but that's not because I'm an apologist for the show. Hardly, there have been plenty of episodes in the past I've loathed (Ageless being one, www.kryptonsite.com/agelessreview.htm) but this season has been the best one so far in my opinion and I don't think that there's been a whole lot to hate in it.

I honestly believe that Reckoning is a great episode and one of the series best and is one of my favorites. That said, I do wish they will consider putting the full length version on the DVD instead of just including the cut scenes at the end of the disc.

I'm sort of explained out and I gotta go take a shower...

Anything else I missed you were curious about, please let me know...

avidreader

01-30-2006, 09:45 AM

3. Everyone has said she was going to visit a friend(Lex) in need while Clark is taking pictures. That could hold true if he lived across the street, but Lex lives way out of town and we are talking at least an hour of time she would have been gone with no one knowing where she went during the supposed most important time of her life. Wouldn't someone have missed her and worried about her missing that amount of time? Clark usually has to save her if she's gone 15 minutes without someone knowing where she is.

When has it ever been established in the show the proximity of where Lex's mansion is as opposed to other sites of Smallville. You cant say that without seeing a map.

Flight_Without_Wings

01-30-2006, 11:05 AM

MFluder
I agree with alot you have said above and would add a couple more just for grins.
1. Didn't the guy who saw when people died see Lana die of old age wearing the Crystal Kryptonite necklace (Lana's original necklace that was clensed by Clark's ship)? So why was she even attempting to die on that road?
2. After 100 episodes in which Clark has saved Lana in at least 90 of them(sometimes twice in a single episode), how could she ever be in any more danger by knowing his secret?
3. Everyone has said she was going to visit a friend(Lex) in need while Clark is taking pictures. That could hold true if he lived across the street, but Lex lives way out of town and we are talking at least an hour of time she would have been gone with no one knowing where she went during the supposed most important time of her life. Wouldn't someone have missed her and worried about her missing that amount of time? Clark usually has to save her if she's gone 15 minutes without someone knowing where she is.
4. Why can all the inmates of Belle Review know Clarks secret, but none of his friends can?
5. I thought Clark had learned his hard lesson "that he can't save everyone" when the little mind reader boy died? Did he suffer a memeory loss and need to learn the lesson again?
6. Why did someone need to die in this episode anyway? Because TPTB said so for better ratings? I guess they were right on that score, but doesn't really help the reasoning for this particular episode.
I am sure there are more, but got to get to work.

Cheers

avidreader

01-30-2006, 11:07 AM

Flight_Without_Wings

01-30-2006, 11:22 AM

Originally posted by avidreader
When has it ever been established in the show the proximity of where Lex's mansion is as opposed to other sites of Smallville. You cant say that without seeing a map.

Back when Pete found out Clarks secret, he commented on how Clark was able to beat the bus to school and said he must have caught a ride. Lex apparently lives somewhere close as they are always walking back and forth.

And just the fact that they are speeding back to town when the accident happens is justification enough.

Although the exact distance is not known to us, we can safely say it is a ways from down town and would take considerable time to make a round trip. Having been raised in a smal farming community, and living out in the boonies, I can speak from experience on how far some of the neighbors houses are.

Another example is the arial views provided on many of the shows at how far they live away from anywhere else.

Cheers.

Originally posted by avidreader
That's why Clark said to Jor-el in the Fortress "this wasnt her destiny"

So just telling her his secret changes her destiny? Then why did she almost die the second time as she would have if Clark had not interviened again? If this true, then everyone he told would have to die including Pete and Chloe.

Although in most cases, everyone he tells does die so may be you are right in that case.

Who knows just psoing questions.

Cheers

KRAM-el

01-30-2006, 11:30 AM

Just to let some of you angry Triplet defenders know -- I have PM'd her w/ apologies, explanations & suggestions. So you can stop hating me now.:\

Quadrotriticale

01-30-2006, 12:02 PM

kal-el_Girl

01-30-2006, 12:31 PM

triplet:
I absolutely loved your review, I agree totally with you. The emotional moments and the slow-mo finale was awesome, I was touched by martha's grief and clark's guilt.
I hope that pa' comesback in a dream sequence and tells clark that everything is alright, so he can shake all those ghosts that are haunting clark. only then he will become the real superman.
I knew Jonathan was a gonner since season 1 so, come on people why so shocked that he died. and besides this is the end of clana as we know it, so let the good times roll. bring on the Clois!!

Flight_Without_Wings

01-30-2006, 01:18 PM

Originally posted by Quadrotriticale
Believe it or not but there is a map of Smallville on the WB site. Rathering interesting actually.

Thanks for the info.

From that map, the accident couldn't have happened as it did in the show. Go figure. The bus and Lana were on the wrong roads. Lana would have had to run the stop sign and smashed into the bus not the other way round. The side road comes from Lexes and the straight road comes from somewhere out of town.

Now for the real shocker, Jonathan would have been going the exact opposite direction to meet Lionel at his farm and could in no way be near the accident.

Oh well details, Details details. Hate to confuse the acts with facts and details, but there it is. More holes in the plot and these are major sink wholes.

Of course, mayb the WB has the wrong map of town. Who knows.

vyperman7

01-30-2006, 01:21 PM

Originally posted by KRAM-el
Just to let some of you angry Triplet defenders know -- I have PM'd her w/ apologies, explanations & suggestions. So you can stop hating me now.:\

I am curious why everyone was hating on you. Just because you disagree with someone's opinions, doesn't mean that you quote on quote "hate" them or think any of less of them. It just means that your opinions differ.

KRAM-el

01-30-2006, 01:46 PM

Originally posted by vyperman7
I am curious why everyone was hating on you. Just because you disagree with someone's opinions, doesn't mean that you quote on quote "hate" them or think any of less of them. It just means that your opinions differ.

Thank you, vyperman. Not that I needed validation, but thank you. :)

MyOwnSuperhero

01-30-2006, 06:29 PM

I need to thank Triplet for posting a levelheaded review on an episode that has been suprisingly poorly received and both misunderstood and maligned. Reckoning had every single element that we so often complain it should have -

Seasonal continuity
Continuity within the episode
Realistic and consistent characterization from beginning to end
Important mythology elements
Furthering of Clark's maturity
Further feul for the Rift
The end of Clana
Lots of future Supes/Movie referrences
Technical perfection - the cinematography, the music, the color schemes, the acting, everything was damn near flawless
Actual change to the show - there's a character gone folks

I really don't understand the complaints. I whole heartedly agree with Trip's 5/5. heck, I'd give it a 6/5 if I could!

puddinpiester

01-30-2006, 09:22 PM

Many of us liked Reckoning. Many of us did not. Let's play nicely together. Time to move on to Vengence. Maybe TPTB will be able to redeem themselves in the eyes of the nonbelievers (although, I personally liked the episode. I respect you who did not.) We have to ask ouselves some pertinent questions. What will happen next? Will we get to see Clark happy with someone; anyone? I think a smile looks good on TW. Will Martha have to go milk the cows now? Will Lana get yet another boyfriend or maybe she will go back to Paris??? Will Chloe get to save Clark...again? Will Jor el be nice? Will we, the viewers, be pleased with the show? Will the ratings allow another season of SV? Will Triplet write another review? (I certainly hope so!) On to Vengence.

tejdog1

01-30-2006, 11:29 PM

I just think this episode NEVER had a chance - it was hyped too much. But - having said that, it needed, NEEDED to be much better then the final drivel we got. NOTHING CHANGED. Clana? Same as usual. Lex? He didn't take any more steps down the dark path. Clark? REGRESSED. HE IS SELFISH, IMMATURE, ALL ABOUT ME, AND that needs to stop. It needed to stop a long time ago. Lana, don't get me started. Chloe's...ok. She just...seems too ready to believe whatever Clark throws her way, like she's his girl-slave or something. Too eager to please. She needs a life outside of Clark - where he WILL NOT show up. She is my favorite character, though.

triplet

01-31-2006, 12:09 AM

Originally posted by puddinpiester
Will Triplet write another review? (I certainly hope so!)

:D LOL! :lol:

Too funny... yes, I will write another review.

Hopefully the next one will be better recieved ;), but I just started a new job that will be eating into my review writing time so I don't know whether I'll get these handed off to Craig in a timely manner.

Oh, bad thing about this job is it's at night, even on thursdays! :(

I'll have to watch Smallville when I get back from work at around midnight from now on. :\

I_am_LEX

01-31-2006, 12:13 AM

You know, this episdoe did exactly what TV is supposed to do. It made people talk, well on here anyways. Hate it, Love it, doesnt really matter... you talked about it which is what tv shows are suppsed to do. I for one, liked the episode, thought the acting was very good, the rollercoaster of it all was good... i am disappointed that Lana doesnt know but, LIFE GOES ON! As far as everything you've waited to see.. well - he did tell her the truth - but they blindsided you with the whole time travel thing which i didnt care for either. Now the "shocking death" i don think they really meant that to the fans, more to the characters on the show... specifically Clark. While Lana's death would have had a big effect on Clark, JK's is far more important. He now has to go to Jor-El for the answers to his questions and he also has to balance what he wants, what Jor-El wants and what JK would have ultimately wanted for him. What JK wanted for him was to be the best man he could be, thats what he taught him... so as we all know, he does just that... eventually! I think people just need to let go of the fact that Lana doesn't know yet. You've waited 4 1/2 seasons, what's another 1/2 season, or whatever it ends up being. I for one think that they are gonna find a way to link her in with this whole Brainiac thing. She'll sorta find out on accident, yet Clark will come clean at the same time sorta thing and she'll be shocked at first, but then she'll understand why he never told her. Alrighty, there's my 3 cents... thats right THREE cents.

enamored

01-31-2006, 07:19 AM

Originally posted by triplet

The reboot/the bait and switch?

Well, I initially didn't like it too much. In fact, when I was sitting in my living room watching it I was totally dumb struck. After the horrific car accident and Clark's heart wrenching pleas (Tom rocked in that scene, no matter whether or not you thought Clark was spineless for pleading for the life of the woman he loves - I don't btw).

Anyway, it was a bit unsettling to see Clark just sitting there in the loft. It was jarring and then he went back to his usual MO and lied his ass to Lana.

This time, and I am not sure I made my point completely clear on this, is different than the other memory wiping contrivances because this time it's a do-over... Clark essentially had a clean slate. Her memory wasn't wiped because it never happened.

He knew her reactions to finally learning the secret and to him, although I'm not sure anyone else agrees (not even Chloe), there is a definite cause and effect there: when Lana learns his secret she will die. He's seen it. He'd just lived it.

I agree with what Chloe said, he can still be honest with her and then figure out some other way to save her life but for Clark I think the decision to NOT tell her the second time is an understandable one. Everyone who's known has come into some kind of danger because of him, Pete, his parents and now Lana. So his not telling her the second time wasn't a plot "hole" it's a choice.

It's a tragic choice for Clark. I mean, does he love her enough to do anything to save her? Even give her up? The answer is yes. He's sacrificing the most important thing in his life right now because he feels it's the right thing for him to do. He's doing it to protect her, he thinks. It's sad and tragic and Clark will have to deal with that decision for some time to come.

I had initially tried to talk about that in my review but for some reason it didn't come out right and the friends who read it before Craig posts it all said I wasn't making much sense there, so instead of trying to rewrite it I just cut that part altogether... Maybe I should have tried harder to make my thoughts on the matter more clear and included that section in the review. Maybe I wouldn't have been so piled upon like I've been.

*sigh*

A lot of people are upset that Clark resorted to lying to Lana once again in the second go around rather than telling her his secret. They all think he could have still told her but then warned her off of Lex. Clark is just working on gut instinct and knows that she died as a direct result of knowing his secret so he opts to continue the same way he always has hoping it will work itself out. Unfortunately if backfires on him and she has had enough of it. This was actually very important.

1. Lex knows that Lana would never marry Clark without Clark revealing what he has been keeping secret from her all these years. This is why Lana knowing Clark's secret is dangerous. It is not just knowing the secret but Lex's knowing that she knows it. So if Clark is to ever come clean with Lana it can only be if there is no possibility of a future for them--otherwise Lex will never let up on Lana until he gets it out of her. They can never really be together without it being dangerous to both Lana and Clark.

2. Clark was never going to give up his obsession with Lana unless forced to understand that as much as he may want it, there is no future with her romantically. This episode has set the ground work for this understanding to take place and thus had to play out the way it did so that Clark can move on.

All the posters who think it is back to the same old come here, go away crap with Clana are hopefully off base. I think that the reason that Clark really didn't look at Lana at the funeral until she was walking away is because he "knows" it is over. By the quotes I mean that intellectually Clark knows that the relationship is finished but I think that we will see that emotionally it will probably take a little longer for him to let go entirely.

By the way Triplet, your reviews are always welcome. I have learned things from you that I never paid attention to before--mostly in how things are filmed, lighting effects, color schemes, etc. Don't stop just because some people don't agree with you.

I think part of the problem that Smallville will always have for some viewers is expectations. The story of Superman is well known and has been told in several different ways. Unfortunately, this leads to some people always being disappointed if things don't play out to their preconceived notions. It's a whole lot easier not to disappoint when a writer is working with a clean slate.

rumpuso

01-31-2006, 07:33 AM

triplet

01-31-2006, 07:38 AM

Thanks, enamored...

I agree with you and don't think it's the same old thing we'd seen in Season 1 and Season 2 with Clark constantly mooning over Lana....

I didn't think about why he didn't look at her at the graveside, but I think you're right: It's his way of acknowledging that the relationship is over.

BELLAT

01-31-2006, 07:41 AM

Originally posted by enamored
A lot of people are upset that Clark resorted to lying to Lana once again in the second go around rather than telling her his secret. They all think he could have still told her but then warned her off of Lex. Clark is just working on gut instinct and knows that she died as a direct result of knowing his secret so he opts to continue the same way he always has hoping it will work itself out. Unfortunately if backfires on him and she has had enough of it. This was actually very important.

1. Lex knows that Lana would never marry Clark without Clark revealing what he has been keeping secret from her all these years. This is why Lana knowing Clark's secret is dangerous. It is not just knowing the secret but Lex's knowing that she knows it. So if Clark is to ever come clean with Lana it can only be if there is no possibility of a future for them--otherwise Lex will never let up on Lana until he gets it out of her. They can never really be together without it being dangerous to both Lana and Clark.

2. Clark was never going to give up his obsession with Lana unless forced to understand that as much as he may want it, there is no future with her romantically. This episode has set the ground work for this understanding to take place and thus had to play out the way it did so that Clark can move on.

All the posters who think it is back to the same old come here, go away crap with Clana are hopefully off base. I think that the reason that Clark really didn't look at Lana at the funeral until she was walking away is because he "knows" it is over. By the quotes I mean that intellectually Clark knows that the relationship is finished but I think that we will see that emotionally it will probably take a little longer for him to let go entirely.

By the way Triplet, your reviews are always welcome. I have learned things from you that I never paid attention to before--mostly in how things are filmed, lighting effects, color schemes, etc. Don't stop just because some people don't agree with you.

I think part of the problem that Smallville will always have for some viewers is expectations. The story of Superman is well known and has been told in several different ways. Unfortunately, this leads to some people always being disappointed if things don't play out to their preconceived notions. It's a whole lot easier not to disappoint when a writer is working with a clean slate.
What a beautiful intelligent post. And it makes perfect sense. I hope in the coming weeks, people will realize the full implications of everything that transpired during Reckoning. Like I said, its best not go in with your own agenda, you will be disappointed over and over.

enamored

01-31-2006, 07:46 AM

Thanks Triplet and Rumpuso!

I don't know if my theory will be proven right or not but it is what made sense to me and made the episode make a whole lot more sense as well. I took me a long time to figure out how to express it in an articulate and understandable manner. I'm so glad you get it and think so too.

Thanks Bellat too! We must have been posting at the same time.

Dannyblue1

01-31-2006, 07:57 AM

About the time issues, it doesn't really matter how far out of town Lex lives. We have seen Clark run from Smallville to Metropolis in less than a minute. We have seen Clark leave the football field, run into the school, save Chloe from the bad guy, then get back onto the football field without anyone even noticing he was gone.

That's pretty darn fast.

Basically, because of the way superspeed has been handled on the show, Clark should be able to go from the Talon to anywhere in Smallville faster than I could snap my fingers.

ZeoVGM

01-31-2006, 08:25 AM

While I haven't read any of this thread yet, except the first ccouple posts, I'm sure there are people who still think it's stupid Clark didn't tell Lana the second time around.

Think about it for a second: the first time he told her, he led to her getting killed. If you were him, would you rather risk telling her and having the same thing, or even something different happen that resorted in her death just because she knew? Or would you be too scared to take that risk again and lie to her to make sure she's never in any trouble because she's hiding a secret?

Even though telling her a second time is probably the more logical reason, he lied out of fear of her death. I think that's understandable.

(Which isn't to say she shouldn't have still found out the second time by seeing him use his powers or something -- she needs to find out very soon.)

avidreader

01-31-2006, 01:20 PM

ryb

01-31-2006, 01:46 PM

Originally posted by enamored
A lot of people are upset that Clark resorted to lying to Lana once again in the second go around rather than telling her his secret. They all think he could have still told her but then warned her off of Lex. Clark is just working on gut instinct and knows that she died as a direct result of knowing his secret so he opts to continue the same way he always has hoping it will work itself out. Unfortunately if backfires on him and she has had enough of it. This was actually very important.

1. Lex knows that Lana would never marry Clark without Clark revealing what he has been keeping secret from her all these years. This is why Lana knowing Clark's secret is dangerous. It is not just knowing the secret but Lex's knowing that she knows it. So if Clark is to ever come clean with Lana it can only be if there is no possibility of a future for them--otherwise Lex will never let up on Lana until he gets it out of her. They can never really be together without it being dangerous to both Lana and Clark.

2. Clark was never going to give up his obsession with Lana unless forced to understand that as much as he may want it, there is no future with her romantically. This episode has set the ground work for this understanding to take place and thus had to play out the way it did so that Clark can move on.

All the posters who think it is back to the same old come here, go away crap with Clana are hopefully off base. I think that the reason that Clark really didn't look at Lana at the funeral until she was walking away is because he "knows" it is over. By the quotes I mean that intellectually Clark knows that the relationship is finished but I think that we will see that emotionally it will probably take a little longer for him to let go entirely.

By the way Triplet, your reviews are always welcome. I have learned things from you that I never paid attention to before--mostly in how things are filmed, lighting effects, color schemes, etc. Don't stop just because some people don't agree with you.

I think part of the problem that Smallville will always have for some viewers is expectations. The story of Superman is well known and has been told in several different ways. Unfortunately, this leads to some people always being disappointed if things don't play out to their preconceived notions. It's a whole lot easier not to disappoint when a writer is working with a clean slate.

Terrific points here. I've read several entries from somewhat angry viewers expecting to see "fallout" from the episode as well as the event. Way too much to ask for in 42 minutes with an event as monumental as this one.

I think some of the brilliance of Reckoning will come through further down the line, and maybe, just maybe, will be looked at a little differently after the season is over.

I think the writers have set themselves up here for a reasonable and believable string of events to lead to Lex's downfall, the Clark and Lana relationship demise, etc. Now their task is to actually fall through with it.

What's sort of amazing to me about the episode is that even though it focused on an "event", it really is a lot of setup too.

As for your "expectations" point, couldn't agree more. I've been saying this, more or less, in several of my posts on this forum, but not as concisely as written here. This is the risk of doing something "already done". They face comparisons, and more often than not -- no matter what the quality -- the latter entry almost always loses. Part of my goal then, as a critic and viewer, is to make certain my perspective is more "clean slate" than compare now vs. then. Hard to do, but I think the rewards more often than not are worth it.

Once again, Triplet, excellent review. And enamored, great post. Very thoughtful and instructive thread.

WeWantSuperman

01-31-2006, 05:31 PM

Check out what was originally intended for Smallville, are we supposed to know about this - www.resurrectionpower.com/page667.htm

Homer

MyOwnSuperhero

02-01-2006, 11:28 AM

Originally posted by WeWantSuperman
Check out what was originally intended for Smallville, are we supposed to know about this - www.resurrectionpower.com/page667.htm

Homer What was originally intended? It's a collection of poems... we've got a bunch of those over in the fanfic section. And this relates to the topic how?

I totally agree, if anything 'ruined' this episode, it was the expectations viewers took into it. Some people are ticked because it didn't progress Clana, even though Clana is never really suppossed to progress. It's suppossed to end badly. Some felt a little put off by the fact that Lana didn't stay dead, but they would also be ticked by contradicting what the show has already established - Lana dies of old age, without Clark. They feel angry that Jonathan is dead, saying it's too predictable. Perhaps they'll feel the same when Clark gets a job at >gasp< the Daily Planet!

Really, people haven't let themselves really look at this episode from an objective view point.

Dannyblue1

02-01-2006, 11:42 AM

Flight_Without_Wings

02-01-2006, 12:01 PM

I think the problem most people had with this episode is the writing and how the characters ended up in the situations that led to the deaths. Most annoying were having the characters doing stupid and unacceptable things just to get them in the bad situation. Lana leaving the party. JK leaving the party at its peak. Lex alone and sulking over his defeat. Clark not using superspeed to save Lana the first time. JK and Lana on the same road when they should have been miles apart. Clark acting too quickly to change the future. Lana dying only because she knew Clark's secret. Using the time travel card.

All of these unforgivable events that made for a most unsatisfactory show to those of us who want a legitimate storyline to go along with the good acting and great technical quality. Sadly, most of these could have been easily avoided with a minimum of thought. For instance, just have Lex leave his campaign headquarters and arrive to congratulate JK in person on his victory. This would have been the natural and in character thing for Lex to do. While there he could meet Lana and congratulate her and Clark on their engagement. Later on that night he can show up at Lana’s and demand to know Clark’s secret. She escapes and heads to Clark’s. Meanwhile Lionel has called to set up a meeting with JK at the barn. Lana calls Clark just as she hits a deer or runs off the road at the farm or just loses control , which stops JK from entering the barn to meet Lionel and wakes Clark up. (I don’t like this part as there is no real way around Clark’s superspeed, but to get him there, this is the only way for her to die in his arms.) We can get the same basic death scene and great acting with a legitimate story. Now is where I totally disagree with the story, but if TPTB want to use the time travel crystal, we have the same scene over again, except Clark doesn’t fess up ( I really can’t stand him looking like an idiot and being this stupid, but that is just my personal opinion). So when Lex shows up to congratulate JK, he talks to Lana and finds out about their "last fight". He shows up later that night to go through with the kiss scene. Clark has been watching all along to protect her from death and witnesses the scene. Lana notices Clark just as he leaves and rushes after him. Clark arrives in time to move the obstacle from Lana’s path (deer etc.) so he saves her, meanwhile JK meets with Lionel and has the fight. Clark arrives back at the scene to catch JK, call for mom and have the same death scene.

This is just one way to include all TPTB wanted with a more plausible and realistic way for it to happen without everyone looking stupid or doing unrealistic things just to have the work as they wanted it to. I still do not agree with the loser time travel trick ( for the proper use of time travel, see Bill and Ted’s Excellent Adventure). I would have had Clark be a man and fess up long ago so we could move on. But once again, just my view on the subject.

Nerial

02-01-2006, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by MyOwnSuperhero

I totally agree, if anything 'ruined' this episode, it was the expectations viewers took into it. Some people are ticked because it didn't progress Clana, even though Clana is never really suppossed to progress. It's suppossed to end badly. Some felt a little put off by the fact that Lana didn't stay dead, but they would also be ticked by contradicting what the show has already established - Lana dies of old age, without Clark. They feel angry that Jonathan is dead, saying it's too predictable. Perhaps they'll feel the same when Clark gets a job at >gasp< the Daily Planet!

Really, people haven't let themselves really look at this episode from an objective view point.

Sorry, gotta disagree. I will say that all viewers have expectations, but just because they have them doesn't mean that's the cause of their disappointment or dislike.

I can't speak for anyone else, but...

Example 1: Clana

I'm not a Clana fan. Sure, I'd like to see what would happen if Lana found out (for an extended period of time). I also feel that Clark and Lana splitting up simply because she can't get to the truth about him too-simplifies the break-up; however, I've never cared for their relationship and their constant angst. So, while I was annoyed with her knowing and accepting him (rushed, by the way), and then reverting to the start-mode of the episode, it wasn't Clana-love that caused it.

Example 2: Dead Lana

Again, I'm not a Clana fan, but I neither like nor dislike Lana. She's just there to me. Sometimes she fits into the show--sometimes she doesn't. If she died, it would have messed up the mythos, so I didn't want that. At the same time, I'm not a personal fan. So, that's out.

Example 3: Death of Jonathon Kent

I loved Pa Kent. Loved him, but knew--long long ago (when I first started watching the show), that he would be a goner either during the series or at its very end. It's the whole, "pass the torch" from father to son. When he started having the heart issues in Season 3, that confirmed it. Am I sad he's gone? Oh, yeah, but I wasn't looking for a surprise ending. I knew he'd die.

Point is this--my biggest expectation was that the episode would be good. It wasn't. There were plot-holes, everything was rushed, Pa Kent's finally moments took about--what?--two minutes?, and the time warp-thing...honestly, when I read about it in some fan spoilers, I seriously thought it was a joke.

I've looked at it personally and objectively, and still rates low in my book.

Randolyn

02-01-2006, 03:50 PM

My initial reaction to the episode was stark disappointment. I had expected them to take bold steps and didn't want what was said on the internet to be what happened, and it was. I rewatched the episode afterward, with no more expectations, and was touched by the acting and the characters reactions to what was going on around them.

Simply put, due to the hype, this episode requires more than one viewing to appreciate, but I still only gave it 3 out of 5 for the reboot. This is a very tired plot device. Time travel should almost never be used as it opens so many holes in a story as to make the story questionable.

My biggest concern is good storytelling. Good acting cannot cover this bad storytelling. If you take the last half of the show (after the reboot) by itself, it is a good story, but would need more airtime to be properly told.

I would have prefered the episode more it started exactly the way that it did, but was lengthened such that Lana is in critical condition after the car accident, is rushed to the hospital and put in an ICU unit on life support. After this, Jonathon would have his encounter with Lionel and have the heart attack and also end up in the hospital. Clark would then have to make a conscious choice as to which one Jor-El could save, but the other would perish to pay the universal debt.

In the end, Jonathon, being the noble soul he is, somehow takes the decision away from Clark saying that he's lived a long life and that he already made the choice long ago to make this sacrifice for Clark (i.e. the debt he owed to Jor-El).

I would remove the super-speeding Clark in front of Lex scene and change it somehow so that Lex doesn't know the secret. Additionally, to keep with the angst that they want to build up, the loss of blood has messed with Lana's memory and she's forgotten the last few days. She knows she's engaged to Clark from the ring, and from her conversation with Lex, and both know that she knew the secret, but Clark stops telling it again.

I would have prefered anything other than a reboot. I hate time travel in shows except Quantum Leap :p

KRAM-el

02-01-2006, 03:56 PM

Originally posted by Randolyn
Good acting cannot cover this bad storytelling. :p

I'm just glad someone else agrees with this... :(

BoSoxJim

02-01-2006, 04:08 PM

Originally posted by KRAM-el
I'm just glad someone else agrees with this... :(

well i think my views about the gaping holes in the episode are quite clear.

KRAM-el

02-01-2006, 04:17 PM

Originally posted by BoSoxJim
well i think my views about the gaping holes in the episode are quite clear.

Excepting my evil twin, of course. ;)

MyOwnSuperhero

02-01-2006, 05:33 PM

Originally posted by Dannyblue1
I disagree. They could show Clana progressing towards that inevitable end. Take it to a new place where their relationship is redefined. I mean, have Clark tell Lana, and she decides she can't deal with it but wants to remain friends. Have Clark tell Lana, and they try to maintain a relationship, but the stress eventually tears them apart. Something.

Instead, this episode took Clana right back to where we've been the past 3 and a half seasons.
Take their relationship to a place where it's redefined? You mean like an accepted proposal? Or both characters making statements to the effect that it was over?

This episode entirely redefined Clana. In this episode, it stopped being a high school, 'young love' situation. Lana learned and accepted Clark's secret. That event is remembered by Clark, and eliminates all of his worries about that. He knows, from experience, that she would not only accept his secret, but would continue to love him.

Next, the proposal. This also moves the relationship into real-deal territory. Clark, of his own volition, without any mindaltering Red K or brainbending FoTW activity, proposed to Lana. It is that serious to him. In response, Lana said yes, which also makes it very clear where she stands and how she feels.

Finally, after five years, we can clearly see how real this relationship is. It is a relationship that under any other circumstances would be every bit as strong as Clois will be. That's what they have and that's what Clark gave up, which says volumes about his own character's growth.

The initial scene in both timelines sets itself up to be a rehash of ever loft scene we've had for years - an angsty 'will they/won't they' situation. Instead, it becomes the scene that will prove most pivotal in their relationship. The first time, it's a resounding 'yes, they will'. They love eachother, he's honest with her, etc. It is everything that has been teased forever. The second time is no less decisive. Clark knows fully that this is it. In his own words, he knows that 'he's losing her, and it's his fault'. He knows that this is the point of no return, and he knows that the love he wants is there. Instead he chooses to lose her. The dialogue in the scene could not be clearer. Lana states in no uncertain terms that this is it - tell the truth or it's over. Clark, knowing this but also knowing of her pending death, lets it end.

Those two scenes are the culmination, that's the big break up. Just like Lex's decision in Lexmas, it was an informed decision that sets Clark firmly in his path toward destiny. With Clana over, he is that much closer to leaving Smallville. He is that much closer to creating the dual identities of Clark and Superman. He has established how much he will sacrifice to save those he cares about.

Again, I'll say it - this episode is exactly what it said it would be. EVERYTHING changed. Huge steps were taken.

Originally posted by Dannyblue1
Actually, that episode showed that the future wasn't set in stone because Clark was able to change some things. I only cited one example. In every other form of 'canon', Clana ends and Lana lives. She's alive in the comics, she's alive in the movies. And, as I mentioned before, it's already been established that she'll live to old age. Can Clark change people's destinies? Some would say yes, because he saves them, etc. Others would say no, as evidenced by the fact that an attempted change only more firmly set his destiny. (That's an entirely different discussion, so I'll just leave that alone.)

The fact is, Lana's one of the big three and won't die. If you expected her to, well, I once thought James Earl Jones was dead. He wasn't, making me just as wrong.

Originally posted by Dannyblue1
Actually, Jonathan dying wasn't what bothered many, but the way it was done. There was a very contrived, gimicky feel to the whole thing. Well, that's a personal call. Some are mad that he's dead. Some are mad at how it happened. Some are mad that Lana lived.

I personally didn't see it as being at all gimmicky, but as being very well written. Jonathan died trying to protect his family, which was perfectly in character. His death was the result of his long standing heart condition, which is both in keeping with what the show's established as well as with the movies, which by now, it should be realized, is the canon of choice for this show. And lastly, it was perfectly woven in to the episode's story line which had more to do with Clark's actions and consequences and character than with who did or didn't die.

KRAM-el

02-01-2006, 05:34 PM

Originally posted by MyOwnSuperhero

Finally, after five years, we can clearly see how real this
Again, I'll say it - this episode is exactly what it said it would be. EVERYTHING changed. Huge steps were taken.
I don't want to argue the ep as a whole w/ you (that's been done & OVERDONE here), but I have issue w/ Clarks choices (again, HIS choices)...
If all is as you say, in timeline 2, Why not be a MAN (not this broken-down wimp the WRITERS have made him into) and just say, Lana, it saddens me to say this, but I don't want to see you anymore... I've just come to the conclusion that it will never work out". If she still thinks he's holding something back, fine, but the ball's in HER court, & Clark can start "clean". But no, not enough ANGST! The ep could have proceeded as it did & I would have had MUCH LESS COMPLAINT about it (although there would have still been the "sieve" full of plot holes).
Making Clark into this unlikeable character is going to help ratings? I'm in the wrong profession... :rolleyes:

MyOwnSuperhero

02-01-2006, 05:38 PM

Originally posted by Dannyblue1
I have looked at the episode objectively. That's pretty much what I do with every episode. And the storyline in this episode was flawed. This fit flawlessly into the overarching stories of the series and the season. It was done without plotholes, and had major impact on every character. It progressed the overall story. It was well acted and well shot. Let's see, writng, acting, technical aspects... yup, that's everything. Tada, a near perfect episode.

KRAM-el

02-01-2006, 05:45 PM

Originally posted by MyOwnSuperhero
This fit flawlessly into the overarching stories of the series and the season. It was done without plotholes, and had major impact on every character. It progressed the overall story. It was well acted and well shot. Let's see, writng, acting, technical aspects... yup, that's everything. Tada, a near perfect episode.
You forgot the "IMO". Because a lot of us (even many of the ep's defenders) can't agree w/ that. Not at all.

MyOwnSuperhero

02-01-2006, 05:46 PM

Originally posted by KRAM-el
I don't want to argue the ep as a whole w/ you (that's been done & OVERDONE here), but I have issue w/ Clarks choices (again, HIS choices)...
If all is as you say, in timeline 2, Why not be a MAN (not this broken-down wimp the WRITERS have made him into) and just say, Lana, it saddens me to say this, but I don't want to see you anymore... I've just come to the conclusion that it will never work out". If she still thinks he's holding something back, fine, but the ball's in HER court, & Clark can start "clean". But no, not enough ANGST! The ep could have proceeded as it did & I would have had MUCH LESS COMPLAINT about it (although there would have still been the "sieve" full of plot holes).
Making Clark into this unlikeable character is going to help ratings? I'm in the wrong profession... :rolleyes: Sacrificing personal desires for the sake of others isn't 'manly' enough? Saving the life of a loved one, even if it means being misunderstood and dealing with negative fall out isn't 'likable' enough? For Clark to out and out say that he doesn't want to see her anymore would be untrue, and both of them know it. As it was, that was essentially the message conveyed anyway. They both knew it was ending. It was very, very clear and because we, the viewers, knew what was going on, we could see what a sacrifice it was for Clark, even if Lana didn't.

If the rest of the episode isn't taken into account, then I can see how this would make Clark an 'unlikable' character, but as it stands, it doesn't do that. Shallow viewing, a lack of real thought - that makes it a cowardly move. As it was it was written naturally, it was in keeping with the characters and it progressed the story.

KRAM-el

02-01-2006, 05:52 PM

Originally posted by MyOwnSuperhero
Sacrificing personal desires for the sake of others isn't 'manly' enough? Saving the life of a loved one, even if it means being misunderstood and dealing with negative fall out isn't 'likable' enough? For Clark to out and out say that he doesn't want to see her anymore would be untrue, and both of them know it. As it was, that was essentially the message conveyed anyway. They both knew it was ending. It was very, very clear and because we, the viewers, knew what was going on, we could see what a sacrifice it was for Clark, even if Lana didn't.

If the rest of the episode isn't taken into account, then I can see how this would make Clark an 'unlikable' character, but as it stands, it doesn't do that. Shallow viewing, a lack of real thought - that makes it a cowardly move. As it was it was written naturally, it was in keeping with the characters and it progressed the story.
You would make a great defense attorney, and I respect that, but No lawyer wins every case. I remain unconvinced, and that's my perrogative. The fact that you state your opinions as fact, & not opinion (IMO) is my main complaint here. There IS room for argument; it's NOT set in stone (or Kryptonite). ;) ;) ;) ;)

MyOwnSuperhero

02-01-2006, 06:00 PM

Hey, you're right, it is your perrogative. I just think that people are seriously misunderstanding an exceptional episode. As I've said elsewhere, I think that people were too wrapped up their expectations and haven't really looked at this episode. Considering that many viewers who easily accepted a terrible episode like Thirst are now trashing an episode like Reckoning (I think we all know how I feel about that particular ep) really tells me that something's off.

Oh well, I'm not a lawyer, I'm a writer. I don't need to get people to agree with me, I just need to explain myself clearly.

KRAM-el

02-01-2006, 06:02 PM

Originally posted by MyOwnSuperhero

Oh well, I'm not a lawyer, I'm a writer.
As am I... We just have different approaches, that's all. :) ;) :)

Watching Smallville

02-01-2006, 06:15 PM

Triplet, I read your review, and I wasn't sure I wanted to respond because I have a lot of disagreement with you about episode 100. But after a week, I thought I would try to put my overall take into words, and respond to your review.

There are many aspects of your review where I agree with you. I found the acting excellent in this episode from all cast members, and I thought the episode was beautifully shot. The show was highly emotional — it was easy to get swept up in the developments and the actors' delivery.

My problem with the episode is this: There were too many points where I felt I was getting no respect as a longtime viewer. And what I mean is, things that should have logically happened, that really had to happen given what we've seen before in the show, just didn't. I will give you examples for the main three characters.

For almost five years, the show has made a point of Lana's acceptance of Clark being central to the entire scheme of things. We've been set up for Lana's intense inner struggle when she finally discovers the truth about Clark. And we don't get it — so the event rings false. Lana goes completely out of character for the sake of the story line, and I have problems with that. All we get is a noncommittal "Maybe" when Lois asks her if what she has learned makes a difference in the way she feels.

We have seen Clark hear a rifle fire over the phone then run across town in time to intercept the bullet before it can reach Lana. So while Lana is frantically calling from the car in Reckoning, why doesn't Clark superspeed to help her? There's no other action possible, given what we've seen before on the show. And Clark would be hyper-sensitive to any threat to Lana, given her new status as his fiancee

Lex is nothing if not professional. On losing the campaign, he would be making a speech in front of his supporters, he would drive to the Talon to congratulate Jonathan. He would not indulge in sloppy, drunken self-pity in the mansion. Again, a character goes way out of character so that the story can be forced to fit a certain series of events.

I won't go on. Suffice it to say there were so many of these moments in the show, as a long-time viewer, I lost continuity with the action. I found myself stopped too often, thinking, and not without justification, "That would never happen."

So, where I do agree with you about the cosmetic aspects of the episode, the story had too many problems for me to give the episode a high rating. I give it 3 out of 5 stars. And that's without factoring in my dislike for time reversal, as well as some larger issues which others have discussed on this board better than I could.

All that said, thank you for your reviews. They are always carefully written and thought provoking.

ryb

02-01-2006, 09:10 PM

You know, I happened to come across the episode Hereafter from Season 3, and it has some remarkable similarities to this episode. I'm going to say up front that I believe most (if not all) of these similarities are coincidences at best, but it did give me pause for a little bit.

Hereafter was the 12th episode of Season 3, and it featured guest star Joseph Cross playing a kid named Jordan (Cross, curiously) who could see the ways in which particular people died just by touching the individual.

Well, interestingly, when Clark saves Coach Altman from certain death, Lana's fate changes (from death at old age to death in immediate future).

Generalizing the theme -- when Clark saves one life, the fates of people down the line change. Interesting thought, at least.

So fast forward exactly two seasons to Reckoning. Clark decides to "change fate" by saving Lana and dominoes begin to fall.

The kicker? Hereafter is the episode where Jonathan's heart problems really begin to fester.

Oh, and Greg Beeman directed (or co-directed) both episodes.

I'm not sure Reckoning was recognizing Hereafter two seasons before (I somehow doubt it), but like I said, it did give me pause for a bit.

sheltiemom

02-01-2006, 10:03 PM

I agree with triplets assement that the acting was excellent in this episode. I too have felt Annette O'Toole's talents were not being utilized enough. I can only hope with the departure of Jonathan(don't misunderstand, I didn't want to see him go), that Martha will be a force to be recokoned with.
I also agree with watching smallville's assement of lex- he would have been with his supporters,thanking them for their help, congratulating Jonathan,etc. He would not have been alone in the mansion drinking- I just couldn't by that plot situation.

ryb

02-01-2006, 10:18 PM

Originally posted by sheltiemom
I agree with triplets assement that the acting was excellent in this episode. I too have felt Annette O'Toole's talents were not being utilized enough. I can only hope with the departure of Jonathan(don't misunderstand, I didn't want to see him go), that Martha will be a force to be recokoned with.
I also agree with watching smallville's assement of lex- he would have been with his supporters,thanking them for their help, congratulating Jonathan,etc. He would not have been alone in the mansion drinking- I just couldn't by that plot situation.

I think the "Lex thanking his supporters rather than drinking alone" complaint is borderline nitpicking. I think the point of the dichotomy of their situations is to show that Jonathan *has* supporters/friends/family -- whereas Lex is all alone now. He has alienated everybody he knows (something he flat-out states to Lana in their scene). It may take out a bit of the realism of the situation, but sometimes symbolism is more important.

It also emphasizes the funeral scene. Everyone is near Jonathan's grave -- but Lex is out in the distance watching over them, separated from everyone else.

KRAM-el

02-01-2006, 10:38 PM

Originally posted by ryb
I think the "Lex thanking his supporters rather than drinking alone" complaint is borderline nitpicking. I think the point of the dichotomy of their situations is to show that Jonathan *has* supporters/friends/family -- whereas Lex is all alone now. He has alienated everybody he knows (something he flat-out states to Lana in their scene). It may take out a bit of the realism of the situation, but sometimes symbolism is more important.

It also emphasizes the funeral scene. Everyone is near Jonathan's grave -- but Lex is out in the distance watching over them, separated from everyone else.
Anybody can find "symbolism" in anything (like a likening of the Virgin Mary on a slice of toast). Say we agree w/ your assessment that it's "nitpicking" (which is anyone's perrogative - it doesn't necessarlily blind them to the big picture)... I could give you a dozen more "plot holes" in this ep (but I won't go into that here) & I'm sure you could "rationalize" your way out of all of them. Symbolically, yes, it hammered the point home; the point is, from a "story arc" standpoint, it missed the boat completely. Why are these writers put on a pedestal just because they write for Smallville & pull down 6-figure salaries? It just means they have connections - NOT talent. Most of the time they can't write their way out of a paper bag IMHO! I don't mean to get on a rant here, but can't any of us who have a passion for this medium be allowed to critique what we see as a matted mop of ideas that don't flow well together? Why are WE the villains here? None of us are even NAMED Luthor!!!!!

Watching Smallville

02-01-2006, 10:46 PM

Well said. I think we all understand themes and symbols. We just expect them to be presented/used well.

Flight_Without_Wings

02-02-2006, 05:49 AM

Originally posted by KRAM-el
Anybody can find "symbolism" in anything (like a likening of the Virgin Mary on a slice of toast). Say we agree w/ your assessment that it's "nitpicking" (which is anyone's perrogative - it doesn't necessarlily blind them to the big picture)... I could give you a dozen more "plot holes" in this ep (but I won't go into that here) & I'm sure you could "rationalize" your way out of all of them. Symbolically, yes, it hammered the point home; the point is, from a "story arc" standpoint, it missed the boat completely. Why are these writers put on a pedestal just because they write for Smallville & pull down 6-figure salaries? It just means they have connections - NOT talent. Most of the time they can't write their way out of a paper bag IMHO! I don't mean to get on a rant here, but can't any of us who have a passion for this medium be allowed to critique what we see as a matted mop of ideas that don't flow well together? Why are WE the villains here? None of us are even NAMED Luthor!!!!!

KRAM-el

I am not even a writer and all the plotholes were so distracting, I couldn't even enjoy the show. From what I have read on these boards (and posted myself, sometimes rather strongly), many people seem to think we as watchers went in with certain expectations. After thinking it over, I feel they are right. We have been watching Smallville for 4.5 years now and have come to expect the characters to act in a certain way. That I think you call continuity. In this episode, TPTB decided to stop wiriting Smallville and start writing(if you want to call this episode writing) Superman. So with one magical sweep of the pen, Smallville characters all changed to try and bring them in line with the Superman mythos. While I think they failed miserably on that account, I think they did succed in terminating the Smallville show, leaving those of us who have supported the show for the past 4.5 years with nothing but an empty ending. I think their biggest mistake is that they have developed their own Mythos and in one episode tried to take everything back, which did not work.

By looking at all the supporters of the show that I have read so far, the only constant reason\excuse they give for what happens is "we knew it would have to happen because it did/did not fit the Superman Mythos. I personally think after this much time of developing your own show, you shouldn't ruin it just to try and make it match something else. And that is just what they did.

So maybe they did succeed in Changing everything as they promised after all.

KRAM-el

02-02-2006, 06:48 AM

Originally posted by Flight_Without_Wings

So maybe they did succeed in Changing everything as they promised after all.
Flight, eloquently spoken. I have no problem w/ those who "enjoyed" the ep for their own reasons. I just think that my opinion (ANYONE's opinion) merits validation. Thank you (and all who agree to disagree) for doing that. :)

ryb

02-02-2006, 08:13 AM

KRAM-el, Flight_Without_Wings, et al:

Let me clear the air here. I am not calling ANY of you villains, and anybody who likes the show who thinks people who didn't like the show are villains are sadly and arrogantly mistaken (vice versa also applies here).

However, opinions of opinions are certainly allowed also. Thus, when I say that the complaint of Lex alone in his mansion following the election results is borderline nitpicking, it is not a personal attack on people who think the scene was flawed/unrealistic -- it means that I feel that this complaint is rather "small potatoes" in the broader scheme of the episode. Furthermore, I find that the injection of the scene is rather symbolic (as I stated before).

The notion that anything can certainly be taken as symbolism is rather hyperbolic -- and I think doesn't apply to this argument -- especially since the scene undeniably shows the dichotomy between Lex and Jonathan. The real question is whether this symbolism is necessary and/or effective.

My thoughts are that most symbolism is not necessary but in many instances is effective. I think in this example it was very effective -- especially when you see how close to the edge Lex is in comparison to on-top-of-the-world Jonathan at the time. Many other thoughts are different than mine -- so be it. The point of my post was that I looked at the scene from a different perspective.

Folks, all of your opinions are welcome -- but opinions DO NOT merit validation for the simple reason that all opinions are valid in the first place (i.e., all people have the right to opinions). However, not all opinions merit agreement and/or support. After all, this is what this forum is all about. You have the right to your opinion, but I have the right to disagree with it.

KRAM-el

02-02-2006, 08:27 AM

Originally posted by ryb

You have the right to your opinion, but I have the right to disagree with it.
ryb, I sense we're making the exact same point here, just approaching it from opposite sides of the road and meeting at the median. I propose we shake on it, then, and return amicably from whence we came. And let's not get flattened by any schoolbuses on the return trip. ;)

Watching Smallville

02-02-2006, 09:26 AM

Originally posted by ryb
Thus, when I say that the complaint of Lex alone in his mansion following the election results is borderline nitpicking, it is not a personal attack on people who think the scene was flawed/unrealistic -- it means that I feel that this complaint is rather "small potatoes" in the broader scheme of the episode.
It was an example, ryb, one of many. And I think I specifically said I wouldn't list more. This was an example of a broader issue. Taking this one point out of context and ignoring the broader comment, to my way of thinking, is true nitpicking. If you read the post, you will see my point is larger than the scene at the mansion. The same idea was very well expressed by Fight_Without_Wings, above. He may have done a better job of making the point than I did.

Nerial

02-02-2006, 09:32 AM

Originally posted by MyOwnSuperhero
Hey, you're right, it is your perrogative. I just think that people are seriously misunderstanding an exceptional episode. As I've said elsewhere, I think that people were too wrapped up their expectations and haven't really looked at this episode. Considering that many viewers who easily accepted a terrible episode like Thirst are now trashing an episode like Reckoning (I think we all know how I feel about that particular ep) really tells me that something's off.

No one can go into a show without some type of expectation. Whether it be good or bad, everyone is expecting something based off the what they have seen previously.

Here's an example: Take Lois&Clark. I really like this show, but let's face it--the special effects (compared to today) are not so hot. But, when I watch it, I take that factor into account. I know that during that time, the effects just couldn't be as good as today, so I just have to accept it when I watch.

Now, if they pulled off the same quality for special effects on Smallville, I would have a fit. I would write on the boards, complaining about how fake the whole thing looked.

But, that's the catch--I expect more from Smallville because I know Smallville can provide more. I've seen them do it before, and I anticipate the same performance as they've pulled off in the past. That's not me being a viewer who didn't like the episode because my expectations were too high. That's me taking into account all the episodes, and comparing what they've done, what I know they can do, and then waiting for the result.

I'm not on some type of 'aniticipation-withdrawl.' I just hated this episode for pretty-much all the same reasons other viewers hated it.

As far as Thirst is concerned--yeah, I did like that better. It was a stupid episode, and the vampire-kryptonite-excuse near the end...I almost laughed my head off thinking how hard it must have been for MR to pull off those lines. Here's the trick, however--no matter how silly it was, it was just a filler episode. It will have no basis in the coming future--it will never be mentioned again. Therefore, it you hated, it doesn't matter. You can just pretend it didn't exist if you wanted. Alas, I cannot do that with Reckoning.

Oh well, I'm not a lawyer, I'm a writer. I don't need to get people to agree with me, I just need to explain myself clearly.

Cool, I'm a writer, too. I love the whole hero's-journey, and the like.

I still hated this episode. :)