Clark and Jor-El: not so different

[F-Stop Blues]

Ok, we've known since season 2 that Clark Kent has a destiny and a journey that he must take to achieve that destiny. Part of this journey as Jor-El has said is that due to Clark disobeying JE someone close to him has to die. Ok now think back to Relic. Jor-El said that he was in Smallville as part of his journey. While in Smallville he loses someone that he loves. Whether or not he disobeyed his father is irrevelant. Remember what he told Clark in Hidden, "remember the lessons that we lose from pain." He clearyly learned something from that (ie...the events on Krypton) and hopefully Clark will learn some things too.

[PETER WEST]

Originally posted by F-Stop Blues
Ok, we've known since season 2 that Clark Kent has a destiny and a journey that he must take to achieve that destiny. Part of this journey as Jor-El has said is that due to Clark disobeying JE someone close to him has to die. Ok now think back to Relic. Jor-El said that he was in Smallville as part of his journey. While in Smallville he loses someone that he loves. Whether or not he disobeyed his father is irrevelant. Remember what he told Clark in Hidden, "remember the lessons that we lose from pain." He clearyly learned something from that (ie...the events on Krypton) and hopefully Clark will learn some things too.

That's a very good point you brought up .

[FallenStar]

Maybe this whole thing is just one big lesson from Jor-El...

Finally, jor-El seems to be playing "daddy"

[F-Stop Blues]

Plus in Relic Joe tells Louise that that his father always tells him that there are consequences for his actions. The episode really sheds alittle light on whats going on now. Im not sure if thats intentional or not but its cool that it worked out that way.

[PETER WEST]

It take the Whole "Like Father" "Like Son" thing to a Whole new level .

[vikingjedi]

The person claiming to be Jor-El is a murderer. He purposely took the life of an innocent person as a punishment. Superman would never do that.

[PETER WEST]

Originally posted by vikingjedi
The person claiming to be Jor-El is a murderer. He purposely took the life of an innocent person as a punishment. Superman would never do that.

I'm sorry, but your wrong, Jor-EL was not responsible , this Death was Clark's fault . Jor-EL warned Clark.

Fate choose Lana to die. Clark decided he was going to Play God, And it cost him Big time, This Time . His Father Jonathan Kent .

[MBCorp]

Jor-El is bi-polar. That's the only way I can explain his mixed signals and weird back-and-forth messages.

[vikingjedi]

So because Clark disobeyed Jor-El its his fault that Jor-El murdered an innocent person?

First Jor-El takes away Clark's powers because he chooses to save Chloe's life and doesn't return by sun down. Then Clark gets killed. Jor-El plays God and brings Clark back to life without Clark knowing it. As a result somebody close to Clark dies. Seems to me Jor-El is the one responsible for JK dying because he's the one that brought Clark back to life knowing the consequences.

[CristinaSupes79]

To think that Jor El actually caused the death is a bit dumb. First he is DEAD, he's just some advanced entity of memories that can somehow still communicate with the living.

Second, I agree with the original posting. Actions have consequences. Matter can not be created or destroyed....just displaced. Lana didn't die....Jonathan instead did.

It's just the balance of Nature. As Jor-El says, they aren't Gods.

I can't blame Jor-El for this death anymore than I can blame Clark.

Life and Death just happens.

[vikingjedi]

Didn't Jor-El shift the balance of nature when he purposely took away Clark's powers and then brought Clark back to life knowing somebody else would have to die in his place?

[PETER WEST]

Originally posted by vikingjedi
Didn't Jor-El shift the balance of nature when he purposely took away Clark's powers and then brought Clark back to life knowing somebody else would have to die in his place?

No, Clark made The choice to not listen to Jor-EL [In "Arrival"] He didn't Return to The FOS as he had promised.

Clark is responsible .

[F-Stop Blues]

I agree. I think all this is mainly on Clark. Hopefully he can learn from this.

[Superboy2]

Originally posted by CristinaSupes79
To think that Jor El actually caused the death is a bit dumb. First he is DEAD, he's just some advanced entity of memories that can somehow still communicate with the living.

Second, I agree with the original posting. Actions have consequences. Matter can not be created or destroyed....just displaced. Lana didn't die....Jonathan instead did.

It's just the balance of Nature. As Jor-El says, they aren't Gods.

I can't blame Jor-El for this death anymore than I can blame Clark.

Life and Death just happens.
I agree. Jor-El didn't choose who would die. In Solitude, when Martha is dying, Jor-El says it is the nature or wahtever, implying that he didn't choose her and he certainly didn't choose Lana. Of course if he did, alot of people would be mad, and alot would be happy.

[vikingjedi]

Originally posted by PETER WEST
No, Clark made The choice to not listen to Jor-EL [In "Arrival"] He didn't Return to The FOS as he had promised.

Clark is responsible .

Clark is responsible for not returing to the FOS to continue his training.

However Clark is NOT responsible for Jor-El's choice to punish him by taking away his powers and bringing him back to life resulting in another person having to die when he didn't have a choice in the matter. Thats all on Jor-El. He made the decision to take another person's life in exchange for Clark's life.

[Superboy2]

Jor-El warned Clark that there would be grave consequences. Clark didn't listen, and he chose not to go back to the FOS. He had the key, and din't use it. Technically, he has some role, but not very big of one.

[IVISupermanIVI]

I think Jor-El just has a bigger view on the situation. If he DIDN'T bring Clark back to life, Superman would never exist to fight what Jor-El knows is coming. The fate of the planet depends on Clark surviving, Jor-El didn't have a choice, but to fix Clark's mistake. Now Clark is paying for it and we are all blaming Jor-El with him. Jor-El took Clarks powers because he disobeyed the agreement, Jor-El knew Clark should just stay and finish his teachings, Clark started the spiral effect the moment he put himself and his wants before the wants and needs of the entire planet.

[Superboy2]

Also, why hasn't Jor-El told Clark to come back for his training? It's been more than six months since Clark grabbed the floating crystal. Or is he waiting until the end of the year like he always does?

[F-Stop Blues]

Originally posted by Superboy2
Also, why hasn't Jor-El told Clark to come back for his training? It's been more than six months since Clark grabbed the floating crystal. Or is he waiting until the end of the year like he always does?

I think since Clark didnt finish his training in Arrival his journey is different. JE will wait until Clark gets to the next phase of his journey which should be soon given that JK just died.

I still believe that Jor-El will inhabit Lionel again and he will duke it out with either Braniac or hopefully Zod.

[271ingy]

My memory on previous episodes is hazy but Clark running off to Metropolis and JK taking on kryptonian powers at the expense to his own health would have contributed to JK's death?

Like I said my memory is hazy so someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

[F-Stop Blues]

Originally posted by 271ingy
My memory on previous episodes is hazy but Clark running off to Metropolis and JK taking on kryptonian powers at the expense to his own health would have contributed to JK's death?

Like I said my memory is hazy so someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Thats absolutely true and we dont know if JKwould have died that night on his way to see Luthor regardless of Clark saving Lana. Maybe he was meant to die that night and Clark prevented 2 deaths. We dont know. But the point is that Clark knowingly put all of his family and friends lives before Lana's.

[optinox]

Jor-El isn't the cause of anything, or of who dies or not because he doesn't control mother nature or the entire universe. "the term Journey" used in the series is a time period when Kryptonians learn about themselves, there kryptonian backgrounds, exploration, and to seek a feeling of independance, ect. In the case of Jor-El I think his reasons for being on earth were based on being punished for something he did, but I do believe they said it was during part of his "journey".

When Jor-El was on earth, he saved others also, at that time he seemed to be a bit arrogant, and more to the point, unlike how Clark is, but he may have been like that cause he was pissed off for being punished or possibly cause he was brought up by Kryptonians and not humans like Clark.


If you think about it, he and Clark have changed fate by saving all the humans that were meant to die. And since Clark will never deliberately not save someone if he sees something bad happening, then he's changing fate all the time. The thing is that when Clark died and Jor-El gave his powers back without Clark knowing or having a choice, it was because Clark has no idea what his destiny is yet because he hasn't finished his kryptonian training that ended when he had to save Chloe from freezing in the FOS.

Plus Jor-El foresees bad things to happen on earth that a normal human could not prevent or stop, Clark was sent to protect earth/humanity and to be saved from his own planet's destruction. Jor-El has already made it clear that there are dark forces out there, such as Zod that will come to earth and that Clark is the only one who can save earth, that's his purpose. Clark promised he would come back by sunset but didn't...I think he had intentions to go back but because he CHOSE to stay on earth and save the one's he loves, he was too late and the consequences was he lost his powers and caused someone close to him to die.

The reason there was no choice for Clark when Jor-El gave his powers back is because Clarks destiny is much more important which is why Jor-El brought him back, someone close to Clark dieing is a sacrafice he has to accept but in the end is part of him learning that as powerful as he is, all choices have consequences/and outcomes. it was a way of Jor-El showing Clark "tough love" but getting the point across that his destiny is much more important than saving just one human.

[scoobycookies]

Interesting thread, good points all around. I never could reconcile Jor-El being a good guy until this thread, because like someone said upthread, you can just as easily see him as bi-polar.

But taking bits from everyone in this thread, I'm going to try to make a case for how Clark is at fault, and Jor-El is not at fault, just to see if it makes any sense.

I agree that all the life/death balance is governed by the universe and Jor-El doesn't know who lives or dies. He can not foresee that Clark will die in "Hidden", he can not foresee Lana dying and then Jonathon dying in "Reckoning". He just knows (maybe from experience and his training) that the universe always requires a balance in matters of life and death.

Therefore the events that unfolded can be pinpointed as being a direct result of Clark's decision to not return to the FOS. There is a timeline and Clark not returning to the FOS altered his future. It is true that the exact consequences were never detailed to him but this is because Jor-El is a not a fortune teller. He only knows of the big picture, the destiny not the details of Clark's journey (how he gets there because the details are all dependent on Clark's actions). So while specifics were not given, it is not as though Clark was not informed. Jor-El did inform Clark, he told him there would be grave consequences. Clark chose to completely ignore the warning. He did not really listen to what Jor-El was saying, that his destiny is so great that each of Clark's actions have very big life-altering consequences. His actions do not have small consequences, his actions can affect the life and death of others. Even after losing his powers Clark did not return to the FOS to ask for them back. And it is the fact that he did not have his powers and that refusal of destiny that he died when shot in "Hidden".

Some may say Jor-El is responsible because he took Clark's powers. This isn't correct because Jor-El did not know in "Arrival" that Clark would die in "Hidden" and need to be resurrected. Jor-El probably assumed that Clark would have come around to accepting his training and ask for his powers back because Jor-El knows Clark's destiny, even though he does not know the details. Also we don't really know if Jor-El took away his powers or that the act of Clark not returning to the FOS to train was taken by the universe as an act of refusing his destiny and altering his future from Superman to being Mr. Lang. And with that future as Superman lost, his powers just simply disappeared. I know Clark says in Arrival that Jor-El took them but he probably was guessing that they were taken rather than just disappeared due to his actions. Jor-El never told him, so there isn't anyway for Clark to know. Either way, the lost of powers was a consequence of Clark's actions and that is all on Clark. And not only did Clark lose his powers, he did not return to the FOS to ask for them back even after "Mortal" where his loved ones were put in a life-threatening situation and Chloe questioning his decision.

As it turns out, without his powers when Clark is shot in "Hidden", he dies. And Clark's death is all on Clark because it was his choice to accept the mortal life and in effect accept that he would die someday, something that he did not think through at all. Jor-El knows for the future of the planet, Clark must be resurrected. He is stuck between a rock and a hard place and he was put there because of his son's actions. Jor-El chooses to resurrect Clark at the sacrifice of a life. I don't think he knew until after the resurrection that the sacrifice would be at the expense of one of Clark's loved ones as Jor-El is not the one choosing who dies, that is up to the universe. In going through all this, Clark learns that he isn't normal, his actions do affect people on a life/death level and therefore he must always be vigilant in thinking things through.

[clois1938]

Originally posted by F-Stop Blues
Ok, we've known since season 2 that Clark Kent has a destiny and a journey that he must take to achieve that destiny. Part of this journey as Jor-El has said is that due to Clark disobeying JE someone close to him has to die. Ok now think back to Relic. Jor-El said that he was in Smallville as part of his journey. While in Smallville he loses someone that he loves. Whether or not he disobeyed his father is irrevelant. Remember what he told Clark in Hidden, "remember the lessons that we lose from pain." He clearyly learned something from that (ie...the events on Krypton) and hopefully Clark will learn some things too.
that makes sense, good comparison

[ckfan]

And did you ever notice that the physical resemblance between Jor-El and Clark is uncanny??

[All about Clark]

Jor-el is playing GOD and is responsible for everything. And he is perfectly willing to lose some innocents for his son's destiny.

He caused Clark to go to Metropolis, he caused Clark to lose his powers. If you believe Clark did that on his own your crazy, because if he could, he would have gotten rid of them long ago, the simple fact is that Clark wished them gone and the father made it happen. That makes Jor-el responsible for Clark dying and the life exchange. Clark is a pawn and big daddy is showing him that he's the one with the power.

Every decision Clark has made has been out of love for humans. Clark doesn't have the ability to see the big picture like Jor-el does. That makes Jor-el responsible for everything.

[FaaipDeOiad31]

Originally posted by PETER WEST
I'm sorry, but your wrong, Jor-EL was not responsible , this Death was Clark's fault . Jor-EL warned Clark.

Fate choose Lana to die. Clark decided he was going to Play God, And it cost him Big time, This Time . His Father Jonathan Kent .

That's a good point. Jor-El also said... "We are not gods, Kal-El..."

[KRAM-el]

See the "Clark is a murderer" thread. There is a lot of fascinating insight into Jor-El's "Deus Ex Machina" as well as Clark's culpability...

[Quadrotriticale]

I have to agree that Jor-El must take most of the responsibility here. Some say he can't foresee the future but can see the big picture. Sorry but you can't have it both ways. If he can't foresee the future, how can he know if Clark's "destiny" is still valid? For all he knows the threat to earth could be gone.

I have to agree with Viking on this one as it's how I look at it as well.

[Shadow09]

Originally posted by FallenStar
Maybe this whole thing is just one big lesson from Jor-El...

Finally, jor-El seems to be playing "daddy"

That's a good point, finally Clark accepting Jor-El and calling him father. . .


Originally posted by FallenStar
Maybe this whole thing is just one big lesson from Jor-El...

Finally, jor-El seems to be playing "daddy"

That's a good point, finally Clark accepting Jor-El and calling him father. . .

[UpandAtom]

One thing I don't understand. If there's supposed to be a balance to the universe and Jor-El said a life would be exchanged for Clark's, why did he wait so long to kill someone? It's been months after "Hidden". Why didn't he do it right away?