What Have They Done To Lionel?

[johnny fogg]

Lionel Luthor confronts elder Kent in a barn. Fathers of enemies face to face. Cool right? Um, no. Because instead of revealing exactly what Lionel knows about Clark, or even dropping hints, I've got no information about his agenda since he reformed in season four. That's a long frickin time.

Why is no one else annoyed by this? How can a principal character get regulated to appearing once every two episodes and doing something menacing without provacation or explanation?

Continuity is so bad with Lionel that I'm embarrassed for John Glover. I was happy with how the confrontation between the elder Luthors played out, but having it lead to JK's death, and WORSE, having Lionel show up at the funeral to put the moves on Martha was TOO MUCH. I don't care how confident or super-evil he is, I would not go around attending high-profile funerals if I just killed the guy the night before. Nonsense. They should have shown him trying to console Martha in a later episode. Here Lionel just acts like a demon with no human side. To add insult to injury, Lionel's vagueness and seemingly nonexistent character development have further cemented his role as the "I don't need a deep personality or motive because I'm the boogity boogity man" guy on the show. It's not creative. It's certainly not suspensful. Why????!?!?

Um yeah, so am I overreacting?

[Extremeblizz]

Nope.
You're dead on, as I was reading your post I was thinking to myself: "Man this guy has a point".
I don't see alot of posts that actually make me thing back and review things.
You're totally right, we have absloutley no idea what the hell's been going on with him.
At the beginning of the season he was all Krypto-Mad, giving advice about how to deal with Zod.
Now, what the hell's he doing? Nobody knows.

[Randy G.]

Not at all johnny. I've noticed that Lionel's role, as well as screen time have been reduced dramatically.
They've decided to go the shallow, menacing route for some reason. I too, prefer a little more depth to my characters.

He's been hot after Martha for years, so I'm sure he'll really give her a "shoulder to cry on" now, in an extremely vulnerable moment. However, there is no doubt in my mind that he genuinely cares for her.

I'm sure the reduction of his characters' writing, is only to shift the main focus over to Lex's descent into evil.
Actually, I'm not entirely sure just WHAT they may have in store for Lionel.
Death at the hands of his son, may be a distinct possibility. :\

[Coyote]

Yeah, Lex will reverse time and kill Lionel to save Lana's life after Lana is run over by the Kent's tractor.

[johnny fogg]

Eek. I had a Lionel theory a few episodes ago after the infamous "she'll never love you "speech he gave Lex about running for senator. Everyone went up in arms about how the words he chose didn't sound right and how it was out of character. I, like a good little mindless peon who doesn't ask disloyal questions, figured out he might have a really strange but plausible agenda. Here it is:

Lionel is supposed to have no money('cept for some reason he DOES, erm...). He's been grooming Lex for power, but for what? Not benevolence. Lionel is a cynic who has allowed his dim view of mankind to turn him into a monster. He doesn't really believe in ideals, so a position like senator would be wasted on Lex. Another lesson Lex needs to learn. But this was never spelt out, so we're left to think Lionel only funded JK to a) get snuggly with Martha and b) blackmail JK for some nefarious purpose which you all know could very well be forgotten tomarrow.

The second part of my theory was that Lionel has no real reason for living except his son, that his whole purpose is to create his heir, and that even if his son kills him it won't matter because it's a means to an end. On that notion, when Lex snaps and it won't be a surprise to him and he'll die knowing Lex is following the evil cycle. This is creepy and a little macabre, but at least it kind of fits into the bizarre things he does for no given reason.

Now, following Reckoning, it turns out his prime motive is to get snuggly with Martha. Lame. And totally anti-climatic for that storyline. Besides, what do I care is Martha sleeps with Lionel is JK's already in the ground? Another wasted chance at a suspenseful storyline. I think the writers are worried any real suspense will make people lose patience and switch to a reality show. :mad:

[KRAM-el]

I see the Lionel/JK scene as this: No matter how it played out, Lionel wins (hands down)...

He still has the pic (I believe it's Brainiac's ship)

It was the same-old JK/Lionel confrontation we've see a dozen times before...

JK's line - "I will not let you destroy my family" - repeated ad infinitum, only this time accented w/ a sucker punch (& a GREAT tumble by MB)...

Only for JK to hitch a couple of times, walk outside & vapor-lock?

I think it did exactly what he was trying to prevent... let MB destroy his family (& make the moves on his wife).

No resolution here... what a waste. :rolleyes:

[MyOwnSuperhero]

As with everything else in this episode, people are misunderstanding it all and getting really pissy about things.

In what way did Lionel attack Jonathan? He pulled a photograph from a folder, and before Lionel could explain himself, Jonathan went all hotheaded Bo Duke and decked him. Lionel's reaction to this was what? Was it the same vicious retaliation that we saw when they fought in the caves? Was it the cruelty he displayed in Transference? No, he instead leaves. He grabs his picture and takes off. Jonathan was killed by his own temper, fuelled by some well deserved distrust in Lionel, but not necessarily in this instance.

Given recent events, it's actually more reasonable to assume that Lionel is protecting the Kents. (For what reason is unclear - I think Lionel's still good, personally.) First, he offers to fund JK's campaign against Lex. Next, he points Chloe in the right direction to stop Fine. Next, he steps in and buys Griff's damaging information from him, and rather than keeping it, he burns it. Next, he again offers to fund JK's campaign, finally succeeding. He explicitly says that it is done with no strings attached, and later tells Jonathan that he wouldn't have back him had he thought he would simply be a 'puppet'. In this same conversation, Lionel implies that JK has a secret, and pulls out a photo.

It's not a giant stretch to suggest that Lionel's protecting them.

[MBCorp]

You have a good point, johnny fogg. The writing for Lionel's character has really went down hill since the glorious heights of season 3. Lionel was one of their most fascinating characters and now all he does is show up for a few minutes every few episodes acting enigmatic and sinister. I miss the depth of his relationship with his son.:(

[KRAM-el]

Originally posted by MyOwnSuperhero
It's not a giant stretch to suggest that Lionel's protecting them.

If so, then it was a complete failure. I don't buy it... not for a second.

[All about Clark]

Good points, JohnnyFog. I had thought that Lionel was using his evil ways to do good, but last night that was changed.

It made me think, is Lionel doing Jor-el's bidding?

It had to be a pic of Clark doing something special (as Braniac's ship wouldn't affect the Kents), was he planning to use that against Jonathan to get Jonathan to do something for him or was it all a smokescreen.

And how can Lionel just pace behind Martha at the gravesite, ew, creepy. I was disgusted.

Lionel you are clearly a mystery.

[Quadrotriticale]

If they even let Lionel and Martha shack up I will never watch this show again. It would be the ultimate betrayal to JK not to mention what kind of impact that would have on Clark.

[kryptonguy]

You have to consider the possiblity that Lionel is protecting the Kents in his own twisted way.

Take the end of season 4 and some of the events of season 5 that MyOwnSuperHero mentioned.

Season4:
- He shoots Jason right before he is about to reveal some information about Clark to Lex.

- He blackmails Lex and Lana to get the second stone. What is curious about this is that he does not care where he needs to put the stones. Some speculation was that he was gathering them for Clark....which I tend to believe, but it doesnt matter for the arguement.

Season 5:

- Jor-El in habiting Lionels body from episode 1 to 3.

- He offers to fund JK's campaign back when Clark was paranoid....we do not know how much of that conversation was real and fake. Perhaps he did imply that he knew Clarks secret there. He does also offer to fund the campaign because he feared that Lex winning would turn him evil faster....he needs to know what failure is to be a complete man.

- He informs Chloe about Prof. Fine.

- He buys Griff's info and kills him (I think...I missed the episode because the WB where I live screwed up the picture and I only saw a still of Everybody Loves Ramond).

- His speach in Reckoning gave the implication that he too was trying to protect the family, but because he is....he wants something in return....we didnt get to what that was.


Lionel has been playing both sides of the fence this year and last year. He is an interesting charactrer, but I do agree that it is about time for some resolution with these unanswered questions.

[Daphne]

Martha would never have anything to do with Lionel. He's too gross. Lionel so shouldn't have been at that funeral.

[SirJono]

Whoa, I have a big question about Lionel...

In Transference, didn't he learn everything about Clark, except for his weakness and where he came from?
After they switch back, he says " you must know I don't remember much from the last few days" BUT didn't he say that because he didn't know what Clark did in his body? As far as I can tell, he still knew about Clark, but then Clark changed him so he didn't want to tell anyone (Lex especially).
Then Jor-El took over him, to help through Lionel, that made OK sense to me.

then there is this episode, with Loinel going back to his old ways (his convos with Chloe come to mind). So up until this episode I thought he was really changed, and knew about Clark but would not tell, and Jor-El would influence him when needed. Now it appears as if any good Clark gave him has "worn off".

[superspider02]

it does seem he might be protecting them for some reason unkonwn to use right now. But after he turned good and then back to bad and after the jor-el possion i really dont know what to think about lionel he is a total mystery right now.

[KRAM-el]

Originally posted by superspider02
it does seem he might be protecting them for some reason unkonwn to use right now. But after he turned good and then back to bad and after the jor-el possion i really dont know what to think about lionel he is a total mystery right now.

Lionel is protecting only ONE person -- HIMSELF. That's all he's EVER done, & there's no reason to change that now (ESPECIALLY w/ this writing staff)! Where do you think Lex gets it from??? After all, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. If you think Lionel has ANY agenda other than LIONEL, I'm afraid you've been seriously blinded by TPTB (their ultimate motive, for sure). Al/Miles = Divide & Conquer! :mad:

[johnny fogg]

When Lionel said he and JK would "gladly die" for whatever he was talking about, he must've meant their sons. I doubt Lionel cares for Clark like a son, so he must've meant Lex, in relation to JK caring about Clark.

I also agree JK was asking for trouble meeting Lionel alone and punching him in the face first wouldn't have solved anything. I guess he knew he was toast and punched him just to get some justice, but still....

Anyway, Lionel is obviously trying to seduce Martha. But why would he guard Clark's secret for something so trivial? If he wants to use Clark, he's never shown any interest in it lately. This is a really uninteresting subplot. The idea is to make me go nuts wanting to figure it out, not make me not care and be totally ambivalent when (if??) it finally unravels itself.

[supergurl88]

i'm going to murder loniel if he puts a finger on mama kent....*grr

[DARKRAGE]

I thought Lional was broke! Jor-el must be paying him wages. he is becoming like a stage villian all he isn't doing is twiddling his moustache lol

But now Martha may be vulnerable and Lional will swoop for her, because he already helped her out with the funds for the election and will use the money I lent you angle to lure her in, hope not though aaargh

[clois1938]

I agree, Lionel's scenes seems so random, they had Jor-El inhabit his body, why is there no follow-up, or are they done with that?

[Shiver]

*Sigh* There's no way of knowing wtf Lionel's up to (apart from seducing Martha). His actions don't seem to make a lot of sense.

[parrotjoe]

It really is impossible to completely figure this thing out because of the Jor-El factor. One would think that Jor-El is going to become an even bigger factor, but it would be nice to see some of these sub plots become more clear and cohesive. Right now we're not getting enough clues. Some of the speculation above about Lionel is very interesting though.

[ckfan]

The Jor-el possession was quite odd, and they never explained when Jor-el left him or if he will "use" him again like that. I also don't think Lionel and Clark have had a single scene together since Hidden. I wondered what it would be like, because Clark would be suspicious if it is really Jor-el. He'd be like: "Dad, is that you?" and Lionel (if it's really Lionel) would say, "Well Clark, I must say, I didn't realize your affection for me has grown so greatly."

Anyway, it is my opinion that since Transference, Lionel was completely changed, and has taken on the mantle of a). protecting Clark and his family and b.) of preventing Lex from moving on the path to gaining more power. I think he truly is a vessel for good, but he is cloaking it with the old Lionel's "mask," at times. I agree with the examples that MyOwnSuperHero pointed above to support this point.

However, I am puzzled by the threat to JK in Reckoning, and how that could possibly fit as something that is protecting or helping Clark.

[Eh,Man?You-El?]

Lionel has become an "avatar of Krypto-Schitzo-phrenia".

[All about Clark]

Lionel is indeed a mystery. I'm thinking he could still be working for good. Not wanting Lex in the senate, helping Jonathan to be senator instead.

It could very well be that Jonathan misunderstood Lionel's intentions. I think he had a picture of Clark using his abilities. I don't think his intention was to give Jonathan a heart attack or to threaten the family. He said it was something they both wanted to stay secret. Quite possibly he was offering his help to keep it secret. We don't really now, Jonathan was alarmed immediately and didn't get far enough to know.

The only other theory that seems possible is that Lionel is still doing Jor-el's bidding.

[johnny fogg]

Lionel isn't doing Jor-El's bidding. He wouldn't be going after Martha if that were the case.

Unless Jor-El has a mad-on for Mrs. Kent. :\

These writers are frankly being very insidious, not even dropping a crumb that tells me whether or not they're going to resolve any of this. At least 'Lost' gives a couple crumbs every six months....

And not to be bitter, but I'm starting to hear the words, "Hmmm, thatr Lionel sure is a mystery!" or, "I bet he's got something up his sleeve!" too often. No offence to people who think positively, but I think someone's getting strung along.

[MidgardDragon]

Mmmhmm, a character with a little bit of mystery and no clear intentions = bad writing, now? Heh, could've fooled me, Lionel's motives are one of the most intriguing things on the show currently.

[whitegold]

The writers have no real clue what they are doing.

Continuity was mega-lame in season 4. They simply chop and change what they are doing to certain characters.

If they had good continuity - then it would be exciting figuring out what was going on to these certain characters.

But they don't. There's no depth and no long term continuity aims. They simply change to fit the moment.

At the end of season 4 I stopped looking for that kind of development in SV. Poor writing, period.

[johnny fogg]

Originally posted by MidgardDragon
Mmmhmm, a character with a little bit of mystery and no clear intentions = bad writing, now? Heh, could've fooled me, Lionel's motives are one of the most intriguing things on the show currently.

Your faith dazzles me.

They never explaned how Lionel required his assets. His given explanations for hampering Lex's candidacy:

a) teach Lex that pursuit of power for good intentions is futile (and possibly just to snub Lex's his attempts to escape him)
b) blackmail and manipulate Jonathan
c) get close to his wife

...these do not coincide how he would suddenly turn around and not only regain Luthorcorp, but freeze Lex out for abandoning the the election (though you could argue he was sickened by it on principle). Suspense for the sake of stringing me alone is not real suspense.

[UpandAtom]

In "Cyborg" Lionel said that he would protect Clark's secret so I doubt he was blackmailing Jonathan with a photo of Clark's powers.