The meaning of Lex's dream and reason for his choice

[MANOFSTEELKALEL]

I've been reading a lot of the comments about the dream and why Lex chooses to go after Jonathan at the end, but I believe that a lot of people are taking the events that happened tonight a little too literally and missing the big picture.

What I got from tonight was that Lana dieing wasnt necessarily ensured of happening if Lex led a good life, it was just a dream showing him an example of a happy, loving life he could have, and not all of the events were set in stone if they did, it was just Lex's impression of happiness with a twist thrown in to illustrate a point.

"Illustrate what," you ask? Well I believe the point of that dream was to illustrate that while Lex can choose a life of love and fulfillment, he'd have to give up the great power and control he has now with his money, company, etc. , and he's unwilling to do that because he doesnt want to feel helpless or vulnerable about anything (like he did in the dream where Lana was dying and he was helpless). He NEEDS to be in control above all else, hence his mothers sorrowful look over his shoulder at the end. Lex has always had a lust for power and control, and this just showed he's not going to give that up, even if it means he's happy in exchange for it. It's his life choice.

In the comics, a big part of the reason that Lex hates Superman is because he's more powerful than Lex is, and even though Supes uses that power for good, Lex just cant have anyone having more power than he does because it means he has no control over that individual. Any power Lex cant control, he wants to destroy.

[MarkAllan22]

That's what I got from it.

[Clark Kent 86]

Right on the money my friend!

[artiist1284]

People keep saying that he didn't choose the light path because Lana dies. It was part of the reason, but in truth the reason was because he didn't have the power or the money to do anything to stop her from dieing.
So in truth he choose the dark side because he fears not having control, and to him that means having the money and power to get things done.

So really it wasn't all because of Lana, which was sad when she die, even though I don't like the character that much, yet sad.

Lex choose the dark side cus he likes the power, money, and what he can do with it!

[ferd]

IMHO I believe Lex chooses a path questing power thinking that with enough power and money he can keep bad things from happening to him. Lex's life has been full of sadness, disappointment and tragedy. In deciding to quest unlimited power and wealth he inevitably believes his path is the right one, the one that will lead to a life of happiness, and no more sorrow. However, the tragic turn is that in seeking such power and control of things that cannot be controled, you are opening yourself up for more sadness and disappointment than you could imagine. In questing power you will always find yourself feeling empty, never finding enough power to make everything just as you wish. People around you will always die. Bad things will always happen. You cannot prevent it, but, as Lillian was hoping to show him, you can enjoy life, and the good moments while you have them. Don't be afraid to live, and be loved. Don't fear the bad things, or else you will never truly live because you will always be looking over your shoulder for the doom to come.

It is extrememly tragic. Lex feels he can have a life with Lana in the future. He truly believes that in being powerful he can cheat death, but in his clouded vision he fails to see that in being the man who so greedily desires power and wealth is the very thing that will keep them seperated forever. She is still a creature with free will, her destiny is not yet set, and with him being the Lex Luthor we know he is in the future, he possesses all the characteristics the Lana Lang we know will not accept.

In trying to do good, and make the right choice, he is evitably doing wrong. Just like Anakin in Star Wars. He is the very reason for his own downfall, and sadly it will continue to snowball as his power and greed grows--Thus his mother's sadness. :(

[Hendo]

couldn't have said it better

[Mydhrin]

You see, it isnt precisely because Lana died that Lex chose the dark side path, but because of the sum of different events.

Thats exactly what the shout to his mother was at the end. Every one he loves has died and Lex cant take that anymore, even though he knows that love might bring him the most joyful moments of his life. You see love is also related to pain for exactly the reason they showed. The example of losing his wife at child birth was to prove this point. Love brings you joy, but also pain in the end. Because Lex cant endure pain, he chose the easiest way to prevent it or stop it. Like he said at the end, power and money, once you have those, u can have everything. This is true, but it is also the easy way, the luxury way. It is a sign of weakness of spirit. Vilains tend to always bury something they cant control with something more powerful. Thats a little what makes Lex Luthor, he buries everything he cant handle under his mantle of money and power...

[PeteM]

All of you have eloquently stated what I got from this episode. Pretty deep for Smallville.

And of course, Lana was flaming hot in this episode which made this episode so enjoyable to watch.

[spreedom]

Well, I think Lex still obviously hopes (plans?) to end up with Lana at the end of the tale, but wants to have the wealth/power to save her down the road when the situations arises again.

[smallvillerox05]

Here's another possibility:

Lex deep down cares for Lana, even loves her. He wants the life he experienced. However, he knows that if he just leaves the Luthor name behind and walks the straight and narrow, that Lana will die. That is too much for not only his conscience, but also that will be too much pain when it actually happens. He said so himself at the end. He was crying when he realized Lana would die. He is trying to have the best of both worlds. He's trying to get the money and power in order to ensure that he can save Lana's life if he needs to. The good life is just out of his reach. He's desperately looking for another way to get to the good life the only way he knows how: with power. He pretty much spelled that out: get money and power and everything else you want will fall into place and you can keep it there.

The tragedy of the situation is he can only get Lanal if he doesn't get the money, because he chose the good life over the money. He doesn't know how to get money and power by being honest. Seven years went by before the visions would have come true, and they were not rich at all. If Lex wasn't going to become rich honestly in 7 years, he never would. He has too much potential to not have anything happen in 7 years if he knows how. He tries to have it all, but ends up with nothing but buttloads of money.


Of course, this is only one of many reasons why Lex becomes who he is destined to become. Like his upbringing and Clark's rejection are also some of the reasons.


Mydhrin, good point. It's a combination of everything that has happened. People can have more than one reason for doing things. He chose the dark side (imo) at least partly because of what I said. However, if he goes to the dark side to get money and power and because of it never gets Lana as his wife, he doesn't suffer from the pain of losing her. But if he gets the money and power and then is able to win Lana (which he sees as a possibility) and then is able to save her life, all the better for him.

[SuperVan]

All of the Kents, and Lana right before she died, told Lex what a good man he is.

I don't like to believe that Lex choose the dark path because of his greed, that he needs to be in control of everything. I'd rather believe that he did it out of his love for Lana. That way, it makes him seem like more of a relatable tragic character. That he would give up a chance at happiness for himself, and save Lana.

[bunkmania]

oh how i love how lana ceased to exist. i loved how chloe and clark were together. i loved how lex finally embraces his destiny. Smallville is looking good :)

[smallvillerox05]

This is the fourth time Lana has "died". :lol:

[triplet]

Originally posted by SuperVan
All of the Kents, and Lana right before she died, told Lex what a good man he is.

I don't like to believe that Lex choose the dark path because of his greed, that he needs to be in control of everything. I'd rather believe that he did it out of his love for Lana. That way, it makes him seem like more of a relatable tragic character. That he would give up a chance at happiness for himself, and save Lana.

You see, it's not for Lana's love directly that he chose the dark path.

It was a factor, but Lex would have to know that the future his mom showed him wasn't set in stone.

He chose the security that money and power would provide, and possibly being able to control or prevent events like Lana bleeding out, over happiness and a less certain future.

He made the choice that he felt would give him all of it since he took what his father said to him to heart: If you still had the money and power you could have saved her yourself.

Not having her to begin with if he takes this path is a risk he's willing to take, I suppose.

Lex probably thinks that he'll figure out some other way to make Lana his. But he's doomed to become the villain and now he's a step closer to that future and a step further away from having a happy life.

It was a brilliant episode, I coulda done without the Santa/Clark/Chloe b-story but aside from that, brilliant.

[Small2]

Triplet:
"It was a brilliant episode."

I couldn't agree more.

Any very insightful posts from a lot of people. The writers did an incredible job of why Lex goes to the dark side. Much better than just something to do with Clark. This story will stick and stand some time.

[Randy G.]

Very insightful posts indeed! :)
It's very refreshing to have new material, with a little deeper thought behind it.
It sparks such interesting conversations. Good job writers. ;)

[The Great Ymmij]

I loved this episode because of all the deep meanings. Lex's choice definitely shows how much he cares for the people he loves. He wants money and power in order to save people's lives. I think this episode really showed the "hero" in Lex in a way even though this choice ultimately leads him towards the evil side.

[vikingjedi]

What we've seen happening with Lex since the beginning of the show is an inner conflict. He has known all along that his true self is the evil one. It was the good side keeping him in check.

Now in Lexmas he saw what his future would be if he rejected the "darkside" and became the person he thought he wanted to be. When Lana died he realized that it wasn't worth it because he would lose what he has been fighting for - Love.

Basically if he can't control his destiny then he doesn't want it. He has always believed that money and power will do that for him. Now he believes he can't have a life a love with Lana because she will die and as a result he chose the darkside. It gave him the excuse he has been looking for.

[Dannyblue1]

Originally posted by vikingjedi
What we've seen happening with Lex since the beginning of the show is an inner conflict. He has known all along that his true self is the evil one. It was the good side keeping him in check.

I keep seeing people refer to Lex's dark side as his "true self", and it's not. That's so not the point. The point is that Lex's "true self" is good. Everything we've seen (including in flashbacks) points to Lex being an inherently good person. If anything, Lex rejects who he really is for the dark path because of all that has happened to him. Even a good person will snap if you kick 'em in the teeth enough.

If Lex's true nature were evil, the Dark Side wouldn't have had to work so frickin' hard to get him to join their team.

[MANOFSTEELKALEL]

youre right, There isnt going to be some life changing event that happens to Lex, and all of a sudden one day he's laughing maniacally, twisting his moustache, and tieing Lois to railroad tracks. This isnt pre-crisis Lex, or Lex from the Superfriends either, where he's going to be committing crimes just for the sake of committing crimes. It's going to be an accumulation of things over time that contort his sense of what's right and wrong on things.

Lex will, for the most part, be a man with a very skewed perspective on reality, due to a huge ego and suspect upbringing, who does things he believes to be in the best interests of those involved but namely himself. Most of the time he'll employ means that are less than honorable trying to achieve them. I think Smallvillle gave us some big time clues to that effect in episodes like "Talisman" and "Onyx". However he wont be as "obvious" as the bad Lex in Onyx was, he was more like the Joker the way he acted without the cool, calm Lex to keep him in check.

[SuperVan]

Originally posted by Dannyblue1
I keep seeing people refer to Lex's dark side as his "true self", and it's not. That's so not the point. The point is that Lex's "true self" is good. Everything we've seen (including in flashbacks) points to Lex being an inherently good person. If anything, Lex rejects who he really is for the dark path because of all that has happened to him. Even a good person will snap if you kick 'em in the teeth enough.

If Lex's true nature were evil, the Dark Side wouldn't have had to work so frickin' hard to get him to join their team.

Exactly. Smallville tries to protray Lex a tragic hero who made the wrong choices, as opose to a one dimensional villian.

[Kal-El-Krypton]

Wow very deep thoughts!

[Eh,Man?You-El?]

The Lana "theme" in the dream was completely beside the point.
Lex was simply trying to decide whether to destroy Jonathan Kent.
He knew that decision would alienate him from every good thing he has tried to associate with for the last four years.
Lana was a generic "Good Wife". The same dream could have been filmed with Chloe in the role.
In the end, Lex decided it was better not to feel any pain at all than to risk it and pursue goodness and happiness.
Even a hospitalized Lex would realize that his decision that "Happiness is Control" would permanently seperate him from any true happiness - including his ostensible "love" - Lana.

In the end, Lex became "evil" for very shallow, selfish, banal reasons.
I just don't think he's going to be very interesting as a character after this.

(Of course, I felt the same way about Anakin Skywalker in ST, Episode iii)

[MANOFSTEELKALEL]

Originally posted by Eh,Man?You-El?

In the end, Lex became "evil" for very shallow, selfish, banal reasons.
I just don't think he's going to be very interesting as a character after this.

(Of course, I felt the same way about Anakin Skywalker in ST, Episode iii)

well I think the whole thing is, he doesnt become "evil" per se, his perspective is just skewed by his lust for power and money and wanting to control everything, so he winds up doing much more harm than the good he originally intends for anything

[smallvillerox05]

Originally posted by Eh,Man?You-El?
The Lana "theme" in the dream was completely beside the point.
Lex was simply trying to decide whether to destroy Jonathan Kent.
He knew that decision would alienate him from every good thing he has tried to associate with for the last four years.
Lana was a generic "Good Wife". The same dream could have been filmed with Chloe in the role.
In the end, Lex decided it was better not to feel any pain at all than to risk it and pursue goodness and happiness.
Even a hospitalized Lex would realize that his decision that "Happiness is Control" would permanently seperate him from any true happiness - including his ostensible "love" - Lana.

In the end, Lex became "evil" for very shallow, selfish, banal reasons.
I just don't think he's going to be very interesting as a character after this.

(Of course, I felt the same way about Anakin Skywalker in ST, Episode iii)
Nice thought, but we have seen since Metamorphasis that Lex has always been attracted to Lana on some level ("Can't knock your taste in women."). Just rewatch the end of season 3 or Splinter. "That's why Lana Lang will never love you." and he had the most heartbroken look. Lex is in love with Lana.

IMO Lex went down the path he did because he was scared of losing Lana. He thought that if he somehow got money and power and was still able to win Lana (which he thinx is possible, then he would be able to protect her from death. He tries to have it all, but ends up with nothing but tons of money.

[Jellie]

Originally posted by smallvillerox05
This is the fourth time Lana has "died". :lol:

And im sure it wont be the last :lol: :p

[Billy Jor-El]

Lex is shamelessly jealous of the life Clark has. Clark is hot for Lana (and at the present time they have something going, even though he needs to wake up to the Chlark, but that's another thread!).

Jonathon is the father he's never had. Lionel would never say he's so proud of him. The Senator says he's as proud of him as if he were his own son.

Lana loves him in ways more deeply than Clark has even seen.

Lex lives the very happy middle class life that he probably imagine Clark would live.

Lex, in so many ways, wants to be Clark (and there were no inferences in the dream that Lex thought of Clark as anything other than a normal earth Farm Boy).

Lex will never be Clark.

Lex will never have the happy family that Clark has.

But Lex can have the money and power...something that they will likely never have.

It makes Lex "better" than them.....in his mind, perhaps. And I would join his mother in looking sadly upon him at that fact.

[vikingjedi]

Originally posted by Dannyblue1
I keep seeing people refer to Lex's dark side as his "true self", and it's not. That's so not the point. The point is that Lex's "true self" is good. Everything we've seen (including in flashbacks) points to Lex being an inherently good person. If anything, Lex rejects who he really is for the dark path because of all that has happened to him. Even a good person will snap if you kick 'em in the teeth enough.

If Lex's true nature were evil, the Dark Side wouldn't have had to work so frickin' hard to get him to join their team.

I have to disagree.

In the dream he was shown a life of love and he rejected the dream. Why? Because he couldn't control that love.

Its just like Anakin. He had a choice to make - Power or Love? Lex chose power. And its not because he is trying to do the right thing. In fact its the opposite. Lex is using "Lana's death" as an excuse to justify being evil. Just like Anakin did when he saw Padme' was going to die.

Lex - saw that Lana would die and he couldn't stop it. Gave him the excuse he needed to become his true self.

Anakin - saw that Padme' would die and he couldn't stop it. Gave him the excuse he needed to join the darkside. His real goal was conquering the universe.

[ferd]

Originally posted by vikingjedi

Lex - saw that Lana would die and he couldn't stop it. Gave him the excuse he needed to become his true self.

Anakin - saw that Padme' would die and he couldn't stop it. Gave him the excuse he needed to join the darkside. His real goal was conquering the universe.

That is 100% incorrect.

Direct quote from ROTS (Anakin to Sidious) "I will do whatever you ask. Just help me save Padme's life. I can't live without her."

Anakin's only motivation in following Sidious is to gain the power that Sidious told him about--the power to cheat death, which is exactly what Anakin seeks to do. As soon as he is in the suit, his first questions are "Where is Padme? Is she safe? Is she alright?" to which he finds out how far the dark side has made him fall. Thus the heartfelt "Nooooo."

If he truly seeked to conquer the universe as you claim, did you ever ask yourself why in seventeen years why Anakin/Darth Vader did not overthrow the Emperor? The truth is without Padme, he has lost his will, and lives out his days feeding off of his hate, his sadness, his pain-HIS HATE FOR HIMSELF--basically allowing himself to be Sidious' whipping boy until Luke helps him find redemption at the end of the Saga.


Now--in regards to the parallel in Smallville:

Direct quote from "Lexmas" (Lionel to Lex) "I warned you, but you chose to give up your family and when you made that decsion, you gave up the money and power that would've enabled you to save your wife."

So, at the end of the episode Lex comes to this conclusion:

(Direct quote from Lex in "Lexmas" )

"Much like Ebenezer Scrooge, I realize, that what I want more than anything is to live 'Happily Ever After'. And you know what the secret to living 'Happily Ever After is? Power. Money and Power. See once you have those two things you can secure everything else, and keep it that way."

Lex's only motivation in "choosing the dark path" (i.e. going after Jonathan Kent) is to secure the money and power he believes will secure his 'Happily Ever After' with Lana.


The sad reality that neither Lex nor Anakin realized was that in following the path they truly believed would save their beloved, inevitably is the very roadblock that will keep them apart forever.

[randie]

Originally posted by triplet
You see, it's not for Lana's love directly that he chose the dark path.

It was a factor, but Lex would have to know that the future his mom showed him wasn't set in stone.

He chose the security that money and power would provide, and possibly being able to control or prevent events like Lana bleeding out, over happiness and a less certain future.

He made the choice that he felt would give him all of it since he took what his father said to him to heart: If you still had the money and power you could have saved her yourself.

Not having her to begin with if he takes this path is a risk he's willing to take, I suppose.

Lex probably thinks that he'll figure out some other way to make Lana his. But he's doomed to become the villain and now he's a step closer to that future and a step further away from having a happy life.

It was a brilliant episode, I coulda done without the Santa/Clark/Chloe b-story but aside from that, brilliant.

The only thing I can't understand under your logic is this: Why would he still try to tear down Jonathan and the Kents? If in fact he just wanted to secure the power. Did he not see all the love that family gave him and Lana at that christmas party? I mean, if I were him, I surely wouldn't do that, but maybe I'm wrong...

[Watching Smallville]

Originally posted by Billy Jor-El
Lex is shamelessly jealous of the life Clark has.
Exactly.

This is the choice he's making. The choice between being someone like Clark, or who he thinks Clark is, and being the person he's drawn to be. I agree with everyone who says that his real love is for power, and that his vision of a Clark-like life is ultimately unsatisfying, not because Lana dies, but because he is powerless and vulnerable.

[hotkk]

As the original poster stated, I think that the dream was really a realisation of Lex that without money, he was powerless. In fact, it's not an opinion, it's a fact, because Lex's exact word, THE LAST WORD HE SAYS BEFORE WAKING UP, "And I couldn't do anything to stop it".

So I don't agree that he his jealous of Clark. I don't think that what he wants the most his Lana to live. What he wants is power, and he realised it at the end.

[Watching Smallville]

So many times, Lex has looked at Clark and his relationship with his parents from a distance, clearly wanting that for himself. And I think much of his dream is based on a life similar to Clark's. He has Clark's woman. He has the respect of Clark's father.

But other than that, I agree with you. I think the point is that he wants power. He's made his choice.

[avidreader]

Does anyone realise that with Lex accepting this path as his destiny, that he has now set the ball in motion to become Clark Kent's enemy.

He is going to go after Jonathan Kent and bring him down, regardless of what it costs Jonathan, Martha and Clark.

After he does this, he and Clark will no longer have any friendship or relationship to recover from. They will be enemies.

This could signify the return of Brainiac, but I guess that's a discussion for another thread.

[Naomi]

Originally posted by SuperVan
I don't like to believe that Lex choose the dark path because of his greed, that he needs to be in control of everything. I'd rather believe that he did it out of his love for Lana.
He did choose the path he does because of need for control, but the writers set it up in the past four seasons so that his choice is understandable. He fails to recognise the value in a life of love as well as pain, because he doesn't inherently trust in the ideal of love.

In the episode he rages at Lionel for playing God, he wants to control things his own way. All he had to offer Lana at the end of the vision was love, and for him that wasn't enough. He thinks money and favours are what he truly has to offer people, that's why he is going about gaining power. He's not rejecting love, so much as he doesn't trust in love alone, and in his mind he needs power to secure his happiness.

[vikingjedi]

Originally posted by ferd
That is 100% incorrect.

Direct quote from ROTS (Anakin to Sidious) "I will do whatever you ask. Just help me save Padme's life. I can't live without her."

Anakin's only motivation in following Sidious is to gain the power that Sidious told him about--the power to cheat death, which is exactly what Anakin seeks to do. As soon as he is in the suit, his first questions are "Where is Padme? Is she safe? Is she alright?" to which he finds out how far the dark side has made him fall. Thus the heartfelt "Nooooo."

If he truly seeked to conquer the universe as you claim, did you ever ask yourself why in seventeen years why Anakin/Darth Vader did not overthrow the Emperor? The truth is without Padme, he has lost his will, and lives out his days feeding off of his hate, his sadness, his pain-HIS HATE FOR HIMSELF--basically allowing himself to be Sidious' whipping boy until Luke helps him find redemption at the end of the Saga.

Actions speak louder than words. Remember at the end of Rots when Padme' confronted Anakin about what he was doing? Anakin asked her to join him to CONQUER the universe and she said no and asked him to just go with her and leave all of this behind.

At that point Anakin had a choice between Love and Power. He chose Power and almost used the force to kill Padme'.

As for being sad about Padme' dying and asking about her you are correct. BUT what happened after that? He blindly followed the Emperor for like 20 years murdering billions of people because thats what he really wanted.

He couldn't overthrow the Emperor by himself because after he got injured in the lava he was no where near as strong as he was before. Even at full strength he would have had a very hard time challenging Sidious.

Did he learn his lesson after ROTS? NO! In Empire Strikes Back he tells Luke that he is his father and asks him to join him so that they could CONQUER the universe together.

In ROTJ he finally makes the right choice but its not to save innocent people, its to save his son from dying.



Now--in regards to the parallel in Smallville:

Direct quote from "Lexmas" (Lionel to Lex) "I warned you, but you chose to give up your family and when you made that decsion, you gave up the money and power that would've enabled you to save your wife."

So, at the end of the episode Lex comes to this conclusion:

(Direct quote from Lex in "Lexmas" )

"Much like Ebenezer Scrooge, I realize, that what I want more than anything is to live 'Happily Ever After'. And you know what the secret to living 'Happily Ever After is? Power. Money and Power. See once you have those two things you can secure everything else, and keep it that way."

Lex's only motivation in "choosing the dark path" (i.e. going after Jonathan Kent) is to secure the money and power he believes will secure his 'Happily Ever After' with Lana.


The sad reality that neither Lex nor Anakin realized was that in following the path they truly believed would save their beloved, inevitably is the very roadblock that will keep them apart forever. [/B]

"See once you have those two things you can secure everything else, and keep it that way."

To me Lex is saying that without Power and Money he can't control everything. In other words he is trying to convince himself that going to the "darkside" is justified. Its an excuse.

Why is he doing that? So that he can be his true evil self without feeling guilt or remorse. That is what has been keeping him from turning evil. The battle within is gone now that he has convinced himself that his actions are ok.

Anakin and Lex are both delusional evil monsters. They convinced themselves they were doing the right thing so that they could have what they really wanted - Power.

[smallvillerox05]

Wow this show is really interpretive.

[ferd]

Yes Roxy :) This episode in particular has sparked all sorts of interesting conversations. I've enjoyed reading everyone's take on the subject matter. :)


Originally posted by vikingjedi


Actions speak louder than words. Remember at the end of Rots when Padme' confronted Anakin about what he was doing? Anakin asked her to join him to CONQUER the universe and she said no and asked him to just go with her and leave all of this behind.



Actually Anakin’s dialogue from that scene is: “Love won’t save you Padme. Only my new powers can do that. I won’t lose you the way I lost my mother. I am becoming more powerful than any Jedi has ever dreamed of, and I’m doing it for you--to protect you. Don’t you see? We don’t have to run away anymore. I have brought peace to the republic. I am more powerful than the Chancellor, I can overthrow him, and together you and I can rule the galaxy, Make things the way we want them to be.”



At that point Anakin had a choice between Love and Power. He chose Power and almost used the force to kill Padme'.


If he indeed chose power, than why does he say to Obi-wan after Padme is out on the ground “You’ve turned her against me. You will not take her from me!” At that pivotal point in the movie, Anakin feels betrayed by Padme, thus his acting out in choking her. If you watch the scene again, you see the anguish on his face. As well as after he kills the Viceroy of the Trade Federation, you see him crying. He is “twisted” by the dark side, and sadly the more he does, the more it feeds off of him.


And again, if he had chosen Power over love, than again I point out that after he is in the suit his first questions are about Padme’s well being.


As for being sad about Padme' dying and asking about her you are correct. BUT what happened after that? He blindly followed the Emperor for like 20 years murdering billions of people because that's what he really wanted.

He couldn't overthrow the Emperor by himself because after he got injured in the lava he was no where near as strong as he was before. Even at full strength he would have had a very hard time challenging Sidious.


First off, I have to ask--Do you recall who actually kills Sidious at the end of Return of the Jedi? It is Darth Vader/Anakin--even when he is 20 years older, and not as strong as before as you claim. He only finds will enough to do so when he allows his love for his son to overpower the hate in himself after being seduced for so long by the dark side.



Did he learn his lesson after ROTS? NO! In Empire Strikes Back he tells Luke that he is his father and asks him to join him so that they could CONQUER the universe together.

I’m sorry, but you have the quote incorrect. I feel in splitting hairs as we are doing here, it is imperative to get the quote exact to argue your point perfectly.

In The Empire Strikes Back, Darth Vader says to Luke “Join me, and together we shall rule the galaxy as father and son.”

I think you are using the word CONQUER to argue your point, however the actual word used in both quotes illustrated above is rule. There really is a difference between the two words that changes the point of the dialogue.

Example- Queen Elizabeth is a ruler. Does that mean she has conquered England?

I am not denying that Anakin’s intent to rule the galaxy either with his wife, or his son by his side is something that is evidence of a person who seeks to do purely good. Obviously, he is deluded into believing that all other forms of government are corrupt, so the emperor feeds off of that motivation and lures Anakin to the dark side, seeing as it would be easy to get him to believe his lies.



In ROTJ he finally makes the right choice but its not to save innocent people, its to save his son from dying.


With this line you make my argument for me. ;) Would a “delusional evil monster” care about the well being of their son?

Again I say, it is the good still in him (as Padme claimed) that resurfaces at the end of Return of the Jedi, that allows Anakin to do what he should have done so many years before: Let the love in him win out over the hate.



"See once you have those two things you can secure everything else, and keep it that way."

To me Lex is saying that without Power and Money he can't control everything. In other words he is trying to convince himself that going to the "darkside" is justified. Its an excuse.

Why is he doing that? So that he can be his true evil self without feeling guilt or remorse. That is what has been keeping him from turning evil. The battle within is gone now that he has convinced himself that his actions are ok.


You are only taking the second part of the quote and running with it. The writers purposely included the first part to show you Lex's motivation. The whole entire dream/vision of the episode is to show Lex's motivation.

Here's the whole quote again: ""Much like Ebenezer Scrooge, I realize, that what I want more than anything is to live 'Happily Ever After'. And you know what the secret to living 'Happily Ever After is? Power. Money and Power. See once you have those two things you can secure everything else, and keep it that way."

Lex is not just this power and money hungry monster-- You have to look at the big picture. What are they trying to tell us about Lex? Why does he make the decision to seek power? He wants to secure a happier life. He wants to be free from the pain he has known his whole life. He is deluded to believe that money can buy happiness. That power can stop bad things from happening.



Anakin and Lex are both delusional evil monsters. They convinced themselves they were doing the right thing so that they could have what they really wanted - Power.


I just have to say when I first read this paragraph it made my heart stop. I truly cannot believe that you have watched all the Star Wars movies, and all the seasons of Smallville and still can stand by such a thought. :\ I mean, I guess this is why there is chocolate and vanilla in the world, because people certainly have ideas that are polar opposites.

I would simply say, take a moment and ask yourself why would the writers of Smallville, and George Lucas take the time in telling us a back story to Lex and Anakin, if at the end of the day they only want us to believe they are “delusional evil monsters” whose only motivation is power? The tale of Anakin Skywalker, and Lex Luthor are both tragedies. Men, who both have lived lives of pain, and sadness. Both lost their mothers who they loved deeply. Both Lex and Anakin seek a life of happiness, for the only one that they have known has been darkness.

George Lucas clearly has stated time and time again on commentaries, interviews and articles that it was important to him to make episodes I, II, and III to show us all that Darth Vader/Anakin is a sympathetic character. He did not like that after A New Hope came out that people begin to worship Darth Vader as the galaxy’s bad ass. He was never intended to be that. In the same vein, Smallville has striven to create a back story for Lex that has made us all sympathetic to him as a person. They did not come out of the gates in Season one making him an evil jerk. They showed us his sadness, his pain, his inherit desire to be and do good. Both creators also took the time to show us the men as boys, letting us see them at a time of pure innocence--so that we could understand their full story arc, and indeed feel the impact of the tragedy at the end of their tales.

In both Star Wars and Smallville they are showing us that even the smallest and seemingly benign choice can lead to a destructive path. There was never a flashing neon sign that said “Dark Side this way”. Of course is there was, Anakin would’ve known better to avoid it. Sadly though, just as in our real lives, we can make a decision that can affect the rest of our days--and sadly we, and our loved ones will have to deal with the consequences. Both stories are allegorical in that respect. The tragedy comes in with how they both made the decision to seek power to secure their happiness.

[smallville_fetish]

Why does Smallville alway get compared with StarWars...

[lynelle]

Originally posted by vikingjedi
To me Lex is saying that without Power and Money he can't control everything. In other words he is trying to convince himself that going to the "darkside" is justified. Its an excuse.

Why is he doing that? So that he can be his true evil self without feeling guilt or remorse. That is what has been keeping him from turning evil. The battle within is gone now that he has convinced himself that his actions are ok.

Anakin and Lex are both delusional evil monsters. They convinced themselves they were doing the right thing so that they could have what they really wanted - Power.
I agree.

I'm just really trying to understand this show where Lex is concerned because most times I don't get it. What exactly has Lex been doing so far with the torturing, manipulation, human experimentation, willingness to put others in danger or worse let them die, if he hasn't been really dark or at the very least on the way to being evil. Those are horrible actions for anyone to commit and still feel justified, he has had no excuse so far.

He has been well on the path of mayhem and detruction before Lexmas, but now this episode gives him a reason to become even worse and somehow make his actions justified when really they are not and could never be. I don't care how many dreams of loved ones dying he ever has. He is delusional. And also cowardly because he's not willingly to make the right choices no matter how painfully it may be. It's so much easier to step up on a path of power, wealth and doing whatever no matter how wrong to gain more.

On the other hand, Anakin is my favourite character in the new trilogy, but even I knew that by the end he had become a delusional monster, completely buying into his own point of view. I understood it, and I tend to think the Jedi failed him as well but he was wrong. He fed into his own weaknesses, and fear and made the wrong decisions that led to all of his losses. It was a self-fufilling prophecy, and he was the architect of his own destruction.


Why does Smallville alway get compared with StarWars...
When the writers compare Lex to Anakin, and then pull off a dream and scenarios that resembles Anakin's story, I can see why there are comparisons.

[KristinIsAwesome]

I agree with Ferd(Very thoughtfull post) - He doesnt want the money and power for the money and power. he wants the money and power because he doesnt want to feel helpless. he wants to make sure that he can change all the bads to good in his life. Eventually, yes, it will all be about money and power, but right now, his intentions are good(Or at least not evil).

But as we all know, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

[slave2moonlight]

Originally posted by smallville_fetish
Why does Smallville alway get compared with StarWars...

Well, while I'm a huge fan of both, I rarely find myself comparing the two, but this episode basically explained Lex's turn to evil through a complete rip-off of Episode 3. Don't get me wrong, I loved this episode! It's one of my faves. And, I'll agree with an earlier post, Lana looked smokin' hot in it, even if she was preggers. Chloe looked great in the dream too! (both looked best in the dream) But, once they came to Lana dying, all I could think about was what a blatant rip-off of the Anakin Skywalker turn to the darkside this was. It was a great episode, but maybe they shouldn't have used such an iconic reason for turning to the darkside as the beloved young hottie wife dying in childbirth.

Lex and Lily= Luke and Leia?

[Watching Smallville]

Originally posted by KristinIsAwesome
I agree with Ferd(Very thoughtfull post) - He doesnt want the money and power for the money and power. he wants the money and power because he doesnt want to feel helpless. he wants to make sure that he can change all the bads to good in his life. Eventually, yes, it will all be about money and power, but right now, his intentions are good(Or at least not evil).
I think his intentions are selfish.

"Pull the grenade" on Jonathan Kent? Jonathan Kent whose compass supposedly saved his life when his plane went down. Ruin a man he knows is a good man, whether with truth or lies. For his own comfort and sense of security? Selfish. Nothing less than.

I understand why he does it. I understand the character of Lex, and love this character the way he is played by MR. But I can never see this act as anything but malicious and selfish. A very definite turn away from integrity and honor.

[triplet]

Originally posted by randie
The only thing I can't understand under your logic is this: Why would he still try to tear down Jonathan and the Kents? If in fact he just wanted to secure the power. Did he not see all the love that family gave him and Lana at that christmas party? I mean, if I were him, I surely wouldn't do that, but maybe I'm wrong...

I think the reason he decides to go after Jonathan (even knowing that the Kents would love him if he lived a better life) is because now he's decided nothing will stand in his way to get the power he wants.

He sees the State Senate as the first step to getting power and if he destroys Jonathan, it's clear Lex feels he will have a better chance of winning.

I don't think you're wrong, you're just not as evil as Lex. He's becoming the power hungry and ruthless man he is in the comics and his decision to destroy Jonathan is a huge step in the direction his destiny is taking him.

Some people have dismissed this episode as not really being that important in Lex's journey to his dark destiny. I disagree.

This choice, especially if he does end up really hurting Jonathan (and thus also hurting Martha and Clark), may set up the final rift between Clark and Lex.

[jimmyolsenblues]

My random thoughts, it was wonderful to see Lex happy and not evil. I was hoping and wondering would Lex remember anything. I felt really good for Lex, “I couldn’t be more prouder of you if you were my own son.” I thought how nice that Lex Finally had acceptance from Jonathan Kent. Why did Clark not wind up with Lana, was it because Clark chose Superman over Lana? I felt sorry for Lex again when Lionel made his rejection so cold. Forfeit the election? Could not believe that Lex out loud said I have always loved you. When Lex said Everyone I have ever loved has died. I felt bad. Lex chooses Money and Power over Lana. Is Lex trying to secure Lana’s future or is he choosing to be alone? What is the Grenade on Jonathan going to be. Lex’s mother’s plan backfired. Awesome episode one of the best ones. What is the significance of the mother in the window she is showing him to be evil and have money and power? I am happy that lex did remember everything.

[FotW]

Interesting posts everyone. I guess I'll add my two cents. :)
IMO the real story in "Lexmas" was about Lex and Lionel's power struggle.
And I don't think his confession of love in the dream world revealed anything about Lex's real life feelings towards Lana. Whether he has "always" loved her in reality or only loves the idea of love is debatable. So I don't think he's giving in to his dark side just to attain or keep Lana.

I look at it as a dream created by Lex's psyche. The little fairy tale life he had with Lana in his dream was a pretty, childish, illusion. In fact it was a story told to him by his mother. Which is why his life with her was portrayed as " perfect" and beautiful ( the lighting in the scenes was so nice!). But then it was destroyed by the reality of Big Bad Monster Lionel.

This is what I think was the reason for his choice at the end. Lex will always choose to seek more power in the world : only to escape what he believes is his father's god-like control. But in doing so he will become all the evil he imagines Lionel to be (probably more evil!) , and so he will never really escape because he will become the Big Bad. And to go back to the first poster's points that this is one of the reasons Lex will try to destroy Superman because Lex wants ultimate power.


Originally posted by MANOFSTEELKALEL




In the comics, a big part of the reason that Lex hates Superman is because he's more powerful than Lex is, and even though Supes uses that power for good, Lex just cant have anyone having more power than he does because it means he has no control over that individual. Any power Lex cant control, he wants to destroy.

[Supersonic]

"Illustrate what," you ask? Well I believe the point of that dream was to illustrate that while Lex can choose a life of love and fulfillment, he'd have to give up the great power and control he has now with his money, company, etc. , and he's unwilling to do that because he doesnt want to feel helpless or vulnerable about anything (like he did in the dream where Lana was dying and he was helpless). He NEEDS to be in control above all else, hence his mothers sorrowful look over his shoulder at the end. Lex has always had a lust for power and control, and this just showed he's not going to give that up, even if it means he's happy in exchange for it. It's his life choice. Way to point out the obvious in a far too long paragraph :rolleyes:

I think what it really comes down to is that he's screwed either way - so he might as well be screwed but with power.

[Jlvsclrk]

Originally posted by Supersonic
I think what it really comes down to is that he's screwed either way - so he might as well be screwed but with power.
:rotfl:
Exactly. Lex wants to go with the sure thing, and love is way too chancy for him. Seven years of joy, respect and happiness, a pair of beautiful children: irrelevant. He wants it all. He will wind up with none.

[Billy Jor-El]

I think he figures money can't let him down, yet every personal relationship he's had has made him feel poor in some way....

[Watching Smallville]

The more I think about it, the more I think he just didn't find the emotions in his dream -- happiness :) , sadness :( , whatever -- satisfying. He wants to feel the way power makes him feel, not the way love makes him feel. Which is sad because it was just a dream! :o He still doesn't know what love feels like. But at this point, he wants what power can bring him, not what love can bring him. I don't even think he cares whether power will get him love. I think he just wants the power. I guess that's what we've all been saying. So I guess I just said it again...

[ferd]

I still believe Lex wants love...

:(

[Supersonic]

What a contrast eh? Lex the family man... then Lex the coldhearted monster.

Aww poor Jonothan Kent. if Clark finds out Lex is behind this...

"Oh my God, all my luxury cars have been stacked up on top of each other!"

[rAbId-RaBiD]

Lex is the CEO of LuthorCorp. He is a billionaire. He already has power and money. I don't understand why he would stil want to be Senator. He said the two keys to living happily ever after are power and money. He already has these things. He could still prevent Lana from dying. He doesn't have to be senator. Does anyone know why he wants to be senator? He ALREADY has enough power to keep things secure in his life.

[Billy Jor-El]

I'm sure he thinks he'd NEVER have enough power.

As for Lana, sure he could save her now with all his billions, but she won't be in love with the power mad Lex, only the on-a-budget family man.

FWIW...I thought the Lexana made a great couple in the dream, I've never seen Lex so happy (just as he said...he'd never known himself to be that way). Makes you feel extra pity for what he is to become....

[All about Clark]

Originally posted by rAbId-RaBiD
Lex is the CEO of LuthorCorp. He is a billionaire. He already has power and money. I don't understand why he would stil want to be Senator. He said the two keys to living happily ever after are power and money. He already has these things. He could still prevent Lana from dying. He doesn't have to be senator. Does anyone know why he wants to be senator? He ALREADY has enough power to keep things secure in his life.

Like Lois said, "It's not enough to own everything, you want to own the government too" or something like that. And Jonathan commented on Lex wanting to tell people how to live. I think that's enough reason, for Mr. Powerhungry.

[Watching Smallville]

Originally posted by rAbId-RaBiD
Lex is the CEO of LuthorCorp. He is a billionaire. He already has power and money. I don't understand why he would stil want to be Senator. He said the two keys to living happily ever after are power and money. He already has these things. He could still prevent Lana from dying. He doesn't have to be senator. Does anyone know why he wants to be senator? He ALREADY has enough power to keep things secure in his life.

Not only what All About Clark said above, :) , but also, for some people, money and power are addictions. Look at the people who have plenty of money who still want more more more. My understanding is that power can be even more seductive and addictive. Some people never get enough of either. It looks like Lex may fall into this category.

[MyOwnSuperhero]

Some have suggested that Lillian picked a bad day to show to Lex. What if she had a limited selection? During Lex's dream/vision as well as back in SV reality, the kents are celebrating Christmas, and having a gathering. Same day, different years, right? Is it possible that Lex could only be shown a 'Christmas Future'? If that's the case, than this is easily the best choice of a day - Lex has child (who isn't in diapers - it's hard to enjoy a poopy kid, even if it is your son), he's not only married to Lana, but they are doing well, expecting another child. Lex is honored at the Kent's party, and shown that his goodness will in fact be recognized and rewarded. Finally, Lex gets the experience of holding his newborn daughter in his arms. Is there any experience to rival the birth of a child to highlight the feelings of familial love and love for your wife?

As far as days to pick go, this one looks pretty good so far.

Additionally, if one is to make a responsible choice, it helps to know the true costs. Lex was also shown from the beginning the sorts of sacrifices that he lived with, from the humorous scene involving a budget, a car seat and an uncomfortable car. This colors his view for the duration of the day. Finally, the inconveniences of life are swept aside to show him the real cost - a lack of control. His wife is dying, and Lionel won't even get up out of his chair. Lex has given up the power and the money, but in doing so, became the man that Lana could love. Any happiness they had together is bought with the loss he experienced as he watched her die.

Now it becomes a true decision for Lex. If he had only seen happiness, he would gladly have dropped everything - the money, the power, the ambition. Up until Lana began hemmorraging, it was an easy choice. Lex would be good, and everyone would be happy.

Had Lex only seen the loss, the pain and helplessness that comes with a normal life devoid of corrupting power and wealth, then there again would have been no decision. Lex would do the smart thing, and avoid all of that unpleasantness. Again, no real basis for such an important decision.

As it was, there was a balance - joy and pain, love and loss. The entirity of the decision rested upon Lex, and his true character. Does he choose to be good, and gain the fullness of a happy life? Does he continue down the dark path, safe from the emotional entanglements that lead to heartfelt pain, cutting himself off from his humanity?

Lillian made it clear what his choice was - does he follow his heart or his ambition?

[ferd]

**claps** Excellent post! Very insightful. You have a perfect understanding of the material given to us in the episode, and well, quite frankly the entire story arc of Lex as a whole.

It's refreshing to see someone really "get it".

I couldn't agree with you more.

:)

[Watching Smallville]

Or one of several valid interpretations. I see it differently. I guess that's one of the good points of the episode.

[Small2]

I agree with FotW.

I see it as little to nothing to do with Lana, and everything to do with Lex and his struggle against his father. It's why after waking up he tells his father not to play god with his life and then makes his decision.

Good post FotW.

I also agree with Watching Smallville. The fact that so many can see different interpretations in this instance is the result of it being a good episode.

[The Astronomer]

One scene that I enjoyed that is related to Lex choosing power and control is the one scene between Lionel and Lex. Lionel is powerful, in control and all alone in a sterile setting when he berates Lex about giving the senate campaign. A good visual about what Lex will really get if he chooses to follow in his father's footsteps.

[Tomsgurl88]

I don't know i'm torn. But i still have a feeling that if lex never saw Lana die, he would of chose the good path. He said it's what he wanted.

[Yair]

all he wanted when he choose thise path was to have the ability to help the ones he love, something we all want, the difference is that he is willing to do everything to achieve it.

[smallvillefreak24]

that's an interesting take on the episode, they make it seem it's because his love for Lana is just so deep but could it be actually the power like you say?

[rowan sjet]

I agree that it was because of the power issue. Lana was just a catalyst. By choosing the path he does, he's not trying to save Lana, as he could just stop her from getting pregnant a second time! He's gone downthe path he has because he never wants to be in a position where he doesn't have any power.

[BuddyChrist]

Originally posted by MANOFSTEELKALEL
I've been reading a lot of the comments about the dream and why Lex chooses to go after Jonathan at the end, but I believe that a lot of people are taking the events that happened tonight a little too literally and missing the big picture.

What I got from tonight was that Lana dieing wasnt necessarily ensured of happening if Lex led a good life, it was just a dream showing him an example of a happy, loving life he could have, and not all of the events were set in stone if they did, it was just Lex's impression of happiness with a twist thrown in to illustrate a point.

"Illustrate what," you ask? Well I believe the point of that dream was to illustrate that while Lex can choose a life of love and fulfillment, he'd have to give up the great power and control he has now with his money, company, etc. , and he's unwilling to do that because he doesnt want to feel helpless or vulnerable about anything (like he did in the dream where Lana was dying and he was helpless). He NEEDS to be in control above all else, hence his mothers sorrowful look over his shoulder at the end. Lex has always had a lust for power and control, and this just showed he's not going to give that up, even if it means he's happy in exchange for it. It's his life choice.

In the comics, a big part of the reason that Lex hates Superman is because he's more powerful than Lex is, and even though Supes uses that power for good, Lex just cant have anyone having more power than he does because it means he has no control over that individual. Any power Lex cant control, he wants to destroy.

It drove home Lex's already pre-disposed belief that power is more important than anything. he DOES love Lana and can't imagine letting someone he loves and is willing to truly love him bacl leave his life like that and unwillingly at that. I can't imagine anyhting that would push Lex over the edge more than what happned in that eipsode.


Originally posted by artiist1284
People keep saying that he didn't choose the light path because Lana dies. It was part of the reason, but in truth the reason was because he didn't have the power or the money to do anything to stop her from dieing.
So in truth he choose the dark side because he fears not having control, and to him that means having the money and power to get things done.

So really it wasn't all because of Lana, which was sad when she die, even though I don't like the character that much, yet sad.

Lex choose the dark side cus he likes the power, money, and what he can do with it!

Oh yes, it really was almost all because of Lana. Think about it. She REALLY loved him and he REALLY loved her but the idea of losing someone like that when being loved by his father is seen as unattainable and his mother dying early the prospect of someone right now in his life he loves being lost because he had no power tips him to that point of really 100% focus on ataining that power.