Lionel's tip on Fine

[wickedgirl23]

So how did Lionel know about Fine and the spaceship? What do you guys think?

My crazy idea is that Jor-El is still controling Lionel's body and that would explain how he knew about Fine and got Chloe on the trail to help Clark.

What do you think, Any ideas?

[Clark Kent 86]

Your idea sounds good. How else could he have known?

[enamored]

Don't you remember that Lex found Lionel in some major trance carving Zod on the floor. He obviously was given some information about all this that he is now able to use.

[CLS]

I see no holes in that theory wg23.

Confirms what I thought since near the end of season 4.

He's still a good guy but he's using his MB instincts to do the right thing.

-cs™

[wickedgirl23]

Yeah, I thought it made sense

Does Anyone else have an idea?

[Lord Rae]

When Clark was asking Chloe how Lionel could know about Fine I was screaming at the TV "Jor-el amnesia boy!" God damn... remember lol... hug in the fortress? Dad in the body? Anything ringing a bell Clarky?

[Watching Smallville]

Yep, Clark was a bit of a sieve brain on that one. WG23, your theory also explains how Lionel knew about the ship.

[Jay Eff]

Actually, Chloe doesn't know about the whole MB becoming DadD, and Clark was likely stepping around telling here that one, so wanted to know if she got any vibe off him and how he knew.

Actually, Chloe doesn't know about the whole MB becoming DadD, and Clark was likely stepping around telling here that one, so wanted to know if she got any vibe off him and how he knew.

[cbismyidol]

I'm all about the theory that Jor El is still inside Lionel's body, but why did he go to Chloe first to put her on onto Fine, and not straight to Clark?

[fattire]

I feel like this show has done nothing to suggest lionel is lionel, and I don't really understand why people think its more just "kryptonian knowledge." obviously jor-el told chloe knowing he'd follow brainiac and learn his secret, and hopefully interfer somehow.

what i don't understand is why Clark doesnt confront lionel, i feel like this is kind of a flaw in the show. I mean, if I were Clark, I might make some pun about cold weather to lionel to verify it was Jor-El underneath or something, but I'd at least try to find out. arrgghh well maybe clark's just scared of confronting the problem....

[slave2moonlight]

I agree about him still being Jor-El. I always figured that.

[Watching Smallville]

Originally posted by cbismyidol
I'm all about the theory that Jor El is still inside Lionel's body, but why did he go to Chloe first to put her on onto Fine, and not straight to Clark?

Good question.:confused:

[Morbo]

Lionel is still good he never switched back to evil mode after the body swap. He only acts a bit shifty and evil since it is what he knows best. (Blackmail of the teage mother). Before the body swap Lionel was evil for his own reasons. after the body swap Lionel is evil to protect Clark (Lana the chosen one ROFL).

That aside Lionel does seem to have the global perspective of the events and steers the pieces accordingly to help Clark.

[AnimeJoe]

I think it's also possible that Jor-El may be feeding Lionel little bits of knowledge here and there. From Lionel's usual demeanor while talking to Chloe I'm not entirely convinced that Jor-El inhabited Lionel's body last night but there's a chance that he's been passing down bits of knowledge to him.

[MyOwnSuperhero]

Originally posted by Morbo
Lionel is still good he never switched back to evil mode after the body swap. He only acts a bit shifty and evil since it is what he knows best. (Blackmail of the teage mother). Before the body swap Lionel was evil for his own reasons. after the body swap Lionel is evil to protect Clark (Lana the chosen one ROFL).

That aside Lionel does seem to have the global perspective of the events and steers the pieces accordingly to help Clark. Bingo. Lionel is Lionel, and he's been good since Transference. He never really returned to evil, and it's always been ambiguous how much he remembers about the Transference, the download from the stone, the Jor-El possession, etc.

I think it's important to note that Lionel still speaks like Lionel, not Jor-El. If Jor-El was running the show, he'd sound like it.

[superspider02]

i think it could be either jor-el using lionel again or what the other poster said about him feeding him info and controling lionel while not in the body.

[Rafael122]

If Clark had gone to Fine, it would be one of those things where it's Clark and Fine v. Jor-El and I'm assuming Jor-El knew this. So in essence, Lionel/Jor-El went to Chloe and since Clark has complete trust in her, he'd believe it.

Basically, Fine's idea of turning Clark against Jor-El worked against him b/c it seemed Jor-El/Lionel was a step ahead of him.

[MyOwnSuperhero]

Here's my thoughts about Lionel and his motives:

http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45239

[jimmyolsenblues]

Okay so I am still puzzled, if Jor-El is in control of Lionel, why would Lionel go to Chloe instead of straight to Clark.......I GOT IT......JOR-EL IS A CHLARKER!!!!!

[MyOwnSuperhero]

Originally posted by jimmyolsenblues
I GOT IT......JOR-EL IS A CHLARKER!!!!! I knew it all along...;)

You know, something that I just realized, Clark had a whole dialogue with Jor-El in the FOS, with no Lionel in sight. I think Lionel's just Lionel.

[liana]

I think that Lionel has been good since Transference. He never turned back to his old self, but he learned a lesson when he was arguing with lex in Onix: he learned he was much better been evil. So he decided to do good while pretending to be evil, in order to be respected by his oponents and achieve his goals. I think he always wanted to give Clark the stone and that he tried to kill Jason to protect Clark, before he told Lex everthing about him. He knows his own son, and Onix showed him Lex's true nature. That's what his supposed "turning back to his evils ways meant". That's why Jor-El chosed him to be his vessel. He probably knew about Fine the same way he knew about the kryptonians and Zod, when he told Lana how to defeat them. He is trying to help Clark the only way he knows.

[Ultron]

I think he might be subconciously be protective of Clark, not realizing his actions are influenced in such a way, but otherwise I think he's not aware anything is changed and he probably thinks he's just fine.

[kryptonium]

Jor-El isnt permanently in Lionel, he said that he can use him as a vessel if needed.

I think Lionel is still Lionel, but Jor-El sent him on the mission (either by inhabiting him or placing the thoughts in his brain) to go seek out Chloe

[smoky]

Maybe he went to Chloe because he didn't think Clark would believe him? This is also why I do not believe Chloe will die. If Jor-El knows anything about Chloe he would know that she thinks his powers are a gift & she has a much better clearer picture of all the good Clark will do in the future. SHE IS THE ONLY ONE around Clark who is thinking along the same lines as Jor-El!

[Ultron]

Originally posted by MyOwnSuperhero
I think it's important to note that Lionel still speaks like Lionel, not Jor-El. If Jor-El was running the show, he'd sound like it.

Very good point.

[Mr. E]

Yeah, I thin it's still Jore-El in Lionel's body(Lion-El?). That would explain the tip. When he hit the three notes on the piano, it looked like he made a "hmm, that's interesting" kind of face. Like he didn't know what a piano was.

[TECHWON]

Originally posted by wickedgirl23
So how did Lionel know about Fine and the spaceship? What do you guys think?

My crazy idea is that Jor-El is still controling Lionel's body and that would explain how he knew about Fine and got Chloe on the trail to help Clark.

What do you think, Any ideas?

THAT'S THE ONLY EXPLAINATION I COULD SEE BUT HOW THE HELL GET OUT OF THE NUTHOUSE I DON'T UNDERSTAND IT


Originally posted by Rafael122
If Clark had gone to Fine, it would be one of those things where it's Clark and Fine v. Jor-El and I'm assuming Jor-El knew this. So in essence, Lionel/Jor-El went to Chloe and since Clark has complete trust in her, he'd believe it.

Basically, Fine's idea of turning Clark against Jor-El worked against him b/c it seemed Jor-El/Lionel was a step ahead of him.

BASICALLY

[MyOwnSuperhero]

Whoa, buddy, easy on the caps...

Just to sum up some different thoughts about Lionel and Jor-El in this ep:

- When Lionel was possessed in Mortal, he spoke differently. He phrased things as Jor-El would. In this episode he didn't, instead he sounded like Lionel. He even opened his Chlionel conversation with a classic 'Ms. Sullivan', and made plenty of refferrences to their old deal.

- Some have said 'But Lionel's a bad guy!' Correction, Lionel WAS a bad guy. His motives have been ambiguous since 'Transference' last season. I personally think he's good.

- Lionel displayed knowledge of Kryptonians before Jor-El possessed him. He was downloaded by the stone, just as Dr. Walden was. We don't entirely know what he learned or what he remembered.

- Clark had an entire dialogue with our familiar, disembodied Jor-El, voiced by Terrence Stamp. Lionel was no where in sight.

- Lionel's conversation with Lex was pure Luthor banter, but Lionel is again missing his malicious edge, lending credence to the theories that a) he is himself and b) he is good.

[Watching Smallville]

I agree with you that Lionel is good, and has been since Transference. I like your idea that he masquerades as the old Lionel to influence Lex as best he can. What I don't understand is how he could know about Brainiac just from being downloaded from the onyx stone.

Would that mean Jor-El knew about Prof. Fine before Fine appeared on the scene? :confused: I'm not even sure how Jor-El would know about Fine without having observed his actions.

I remain confused on this point. I must be missing something.

[All about Clark]

I think Lionel is good and has been since Transference. He's acted according to certain situations since, but the turning point for Lionel was when he was downloaded with the stone, otherwise he would have given Clark the stone when he got it and he didn't. Jor-el knew about how the stones would be protected if humans got them and knew what events would begin this, that is why he knows about Braniac. After Jor-el used Lionel in Mortal, I believe he left Lionel but the information is still there and Lionel is conscience of it since Jor-el left. Lionel is still Lionel just with special information and because he's good from Tranference he can help.

[ImzadiJedi]

What about what evil Lex said to Lionel in Onyx? I thought that had a serious negative effect on Lionel. Doesn't anyone remember that episode?

[wickedgirl23]

yeah, he hasn't been quite good, but he hasn't reverted back to his old ways either

[No-El]

If it is Jor-El or some remanant of him within Lionel, Lionel himself could be without his knowing what or why he is saying and doing things like giving leads to Chloe, etc....

[Superboy2]

Originally by Morbo

What Lionel did to Genevieve was him protecting his son. If your son could be hurt or killed by a powerful woman, or person, wouldn't you do everything and anything to protect him? I would.

[No-El]

Originally posted by Superboy2
Originally by Morbo

What Lionel did to Genevieve was him protecting his son. If your son could be hurt or killed by a powerful woman, or person, wouldn't you do everything and anything to protect him? I would.



You're say that Humans and Kryptonians think alike in this particular situation??:confused:

[nyczwillz]

Lionel = Jor-El.....Lex kill Lionel = Jor-El = someone he loves dies. Memory is still in fortress though..

[Superboy2]

Yes, No-El, I believe so. Jor-El had emotion, as was seen in Relic. I think it will be the Jor-El/Lionel death theory.

[No-El]

Originally posted by Superboy2
Yes, No-El, I believe so. Jor-El had emotion, as was seen in Relic. I think it will be the Jor-El/Lionel death theory.


I agree aristocratic Kryptonians have emotion but, it is cooler and calculating unlike Vulcans who show/display NO emotion.

Considering there thousands of years advancement than humankind. Contrasting to Vulcans who are just centuries advanced-----But this something discussed another time another "place".:D

[Supersonic]

He's still a good guy but he's using his MB instincts to do the right thing

How could we live without those instincts? =D

[No-El]

Originally posted by Supersonic
How could we live without those instincts? =D


I'm curious, what instincts are you referring to??:confused:

[Rafael122]

The question is though, why is Lionel doing this? Is Lionel helping Jor-El push Clark into becoming the man he will become in the future? Or is Lionel doing this b/c Jor-El promised him pizza and soda? It could be many things.

[jaime,oburg]

Originally posted by cbismyidol
I'm all about the theory that Jor El is still inside Lionel's body, but why did he go to Chloe first to put her on onto Fine, and not straight to Clark?

My thoughts as well. I have thrown around the theory that Jor-El realizes that Clark doesn't believe that he really has his best interest in mind and would not trust Jor-El over what line of bull Fine had to offer. Chloe would at least do some digging before disregarding anything Jor-El had to say about a matter.

[No-El]

Originally posted by jaime,oburg
My thoughts as well. I have thrown around the theory that Jor-El realizes that Clark doesn't believe that he really has his best interest in mind and would not trust Jor-El over what line of bull Fine had to offer. Chloe would at least do some digging before disregarding anything Jor-El had to say about a matter.


Just had a scary thought:

If Jor-El is using/manipulating Lionel without his knowledge AND seeing Brainiac with Clark at the hospital at Chloe's bedside in 'Thirst' after she was bitten by DracuLana.

Perhaps, Jor-El has set "The Wheel of Fate" in motion---aware that Clark has Chloe as his confidant, to put her "ultimately" on the Brain's radar screen.

So the next confrontation may be the "deadly one"???

[Tutankh]

I havn't heard anyone reference the piano bit at the end of solitude.... Lionel plinks around on the piano just before the credits roll... Now... remember... Lionel knows how to play the piano blind... and his tinkering would seem to indicate that whoever was in lionel's consciousness did not have that skill.... just something to think about

[No-El]

Originally posted by Tutankh
I havn't heard anyone reference the piano bit at the end of solitude.... Lionel plinks around on the piano just before the credits roll... Now... remember... Lionel knows how to play the piano blind... and his tinkering would seem to indicate that whoever was in lionel's consciousness did not have that skill.... just something to think about


Or perhaps the consciousness/Oracle of Jor-El is ONLY "Selectively Activated" when it needs to accomplish something in Lionel, so at other times, Lionel could be himself, (just plain evil/good Lionel).;)

[Jlvsclrk]

My whole problem with the Lionel is still good theory is that he shot an unarmed Jason in Forever. His stated reason to save Lex doesn't hold water. The implied reason was to prevent Jason from revealing something important about Clark to Lex, either to protect Clark (his own personal saviour) or to keep the knowledge and thus power for himself. Even with the most favourable interpretation, shooting someone with intent to kill is not what I'd call "good" behaviour. Its entirely consistent though with the ends justify the means attitude that Jor-El has always employed (ie, having Kara kill the FBI agent who was listening in on the Kents in Covenant). I think its so hard to tell Lionel and Jor-El apart because of that.

When I heard it, I did think the piano playing at the end signified that it was in fact Jor-El in charge. After all, Lionel has displayed considerable talent in the past and he's not a three blind mice type of man.

[optinox]

Hi all,

What if after Jor el inhabited Lionel's body, some of the Kyptonian knowledge was still left inside Lionel's head. What if Lionel knows about Clark already and has an idea of where his destiny lies and therefore acts normal but acts good at the same time.

Knowing that Clark is the only one who can save and protect humanity against Zod or any other threats of the world.

At the same time keeping this a secret knowing that his son Lex has become more evil than he once was, and realizes that him nor his son Lex with all the power/money they have can protect themsevles from certain things, only Clark can help.

This would explain why Lionel is seen in helping the Kent's/Clark...except Clark doesn't trust Lionel so Lionel with his strategic ways works through the one's Clark does trust, such as Chloe.

I've always believed Lionel knows about Clark and what he can do, but after transference realizes that without Clark around earth would be destroyed and that Clark is there only hope in protecting them from evil Kryptonians or any other threats.

Is it possible that Jor el is still working through Lionel, I believe so...but I think the way Lionel acts was influenced by when Jor el inhabited his body, I think that Jor el made Lionel good which has stayed with him up to this point, and also that some Kryptonian knowledge still lies inside Lioenl's head, except he can't understand it or decypher it, but uses it to help Clark/Kent's.

My question is how come Jor el just didn't tell Clark about Professor Fine ahead of time, my guess is he didn't know that Fine was on earth...I can't see why Jor el would allow Fine to get into the FOS and almost destroy it/Clark at the same time, that's cutting it close....so it is possible Jor-el is working through Lionel feeding him thoughts when needed (such as going to Chloe and finding out more about Fine).

This is my guess, it doesn't make any sense, but what if one of the people that dies is Jor el's spirit. What if Jor el now has the ability to inhabit Lionel's body to communicate/help Clark...but what if Lionel dies, then Jor el doesn't have a life force/or body to work through, and because Lionel was the one who touched the stones he is the only one Jor el can work through. Maybe in the last episode we'll find out that Jor el has been helping Clark all along, and Clark will realize all that Jor el has done was to protect his only son and to show that he loves his him very much, which at this point Clark will understand 'why' Jor el was and is the way he is and realize his destiny fully, and that once Lionel dies Jor el will have no more contact or maybe will never be able to help Clark in the physical world, with all that Clark will understand why Jor el said "you will lose someone that's close to you and love". Spiritually Jor el is close to Clark and we see now when Clark needs answers or help he goes to Jor el for the answers, I think it's a matter of time before Clark sees the big picture and understands that Jor el loves him deeply, and that inside Clark feels the same way even though he never really knew him.

[No-El]

Originally posted by optinox
Hi all,

What if after Jor el inhabited Lionel's body, some of the Kyptonian knowledge was still left inside Lionel's head. What if Lionel knows about Clark already and has an idea of where his destiny lies and therefore acts normal but acts good at the same time.

Knowing that Clark is the only one who can save and protect humanity against Zod or any other threats of the world.

At the same time keeping this a secret knowing that his son Lex has become more evil than he once was, and realizes that him nor his son Lex with all the power/money they have can protect themsevles from certain things, only Clark can help.

This would explain why Lionel is seen in helping the Kent's/Clark...except Clark doesn't trust Lionel so Lionel with his strategic ways works through the one's Clark does trust, such as Chloe.

I've always believed Lionel knows about Clark and what he can do, but after transference realizes that without Clark around earth would be destroyed and that Clark is there only hope in protecting them from evil Kryptonians or any other threats.

Is it possible that Jor el is still working through Lionel, I believe so...but I think the way Lionel acts was influenced by when Jor el inhabited his body, I think that Jor el made Lionel good which has stayed with him up to this point, and also that some Kryptonian knowledge still lies inside Lioenl's head, except he can't understand it or decypher it, but uses it to help Clark/Kent's.

My question is how come Jor el just didn't tell Clark about Professor Fine ahead of time, my guess is he didn't know that Fine was on earth...I can't see why Jor el would allow Fine to get into the FOS and almost destroy it/Clark at the same time, that's cutting it close....so it is possible Jor-el is working through Lionel feeding him thoughts when needed (such as going to Chloe and finding out more about Fine).

This is my guess, it doesn't make any sense, but what if one of the people that dies is Jor el's spirit. What if Jor el now has the ability to inhabit Lionel's body to communicate/help Clark...but what if Lionel dies, then Jor el doesn't have a life force/or body to work through, and because Lionel was the one who touched the stones he is the only one Jor el can work through. Maybe in the last episode we'll find out that Jor el has been helping Clark all along, and Clark will realize all that Jor el has done was to protect his only son and to show that he loves his him very much, which at this point Clark will understand 'why' Jor el was and is the way he is and realize his destiny fully, and that once Lionel dies Jor el will have no more contact or maybe will never be able to help Clark in the physical world, with all that Clark will understand why Jor el said "you will lose someone that's close to you and love". Spiritually Jor el is close to Clark and we see now when Clark needs answers or help he goes to Jor el for the answers, I think it's a matter of time before Clark sees the big picture and understands that Jor el loves him deeply, and that inside Clark feels the same way even though he never really knew him.


This is a very good and well thought out take on the Jor-El/Lionel issue.:)

Kryptonians can be very efficient NOT to leave ANY trace of ANY of their activities and taking that into account, Jor-El would sacrifice himself for the love of his son Kal-El!:cool:

[wickedgirl23]

wow, great theories everyone!

[No-El]

Originally posted by wickedgirl23
So how did Lionel know about Fine and the spaceship? What do you guys think?

My crazy idea is that Jor-El is still controling Lionel's body and that would explain how he knew about Fine and got Chloe on the trail to help Clark.

What do you think, Any ideas?


Also, would have been nice if you did made a Poll with this thread too.:D :D :D

[wickedgirl23]

hmm that's an interesting idea

[gloria]

Originally posted by wickedgirl23
My crazy idea is that Jor-El is still controling Lionel's body and that would explain how he knew about Fine and got Chloe on the trail to help Clark.


i was thinking the same thing..cause the only time fine used this powers was in splinter and that was only the heat vision and super speed..and Lionel wasnt even there

also when clark threw fine on the crystals they went up and when he disappered they went down again...do you think jor-el was controling them?

[wickedgirl23]

yeah I think Jor-el was controling the crystals too

[gloria]

:)

[No-El]

Originally posted by wickedgirl23
yeah I think Jor-el was controling the crystals too



Yes, his will is in the Crystals as implied with Marlon Brando who played Jor-El in Christopher Reeve's 1978 Superman the Movie!

You know the scene in Jor-El's lab when putting the crystals in the ship as finishing touches??;) ;) :p

[wickedgirl23]

yeah, I remember that scene now, I didn't think of that before

[Ummiknow]

If Lionel is really good, so does that mean when he gave Lana (Isobel) and Jason the map to China to find the stones he wanted them to get a hold of it before Lex does (to prevent Lex from obtaining stone's powers)? But I dont see that as the reason, because in Season 4 Opener, Lex mentioned that Lionel had his excavation team go to those ancient places to look for the stones too. So the only reason I see Lionel getting Isobel and Jason to China, is to find the stone for himself, which would be considered an evil motive, no?I always thought, he was GOOD after Transference until he actually got a hold of the stone again (when he DID get it from Genevieve in order to protect Lex(good motive)). Once he got a hold of the stone, he was evil again(the power and temptation of the stones is one not to f$#k with hahaha). But once he was downloaded to the coma stage, then that's when Jor-El took over and he turned good because he is installed with the knowledge of some kryptonian, zod and maybe of clark's destiny.