Jor-El's a rat bastard

[EricN68]

End of season 3: "I'm gonna kill yer pa if you don't come with me and be reborn!"

End of season 2: "You will obey me, Kal-El!"

This episode: "I brought you back to life. To make that work, someone you love will die. I'm not gonna tell you WHO... I'm going to make you live in constant agony until it happens. And oh by the way it's your fault for not obeying me."

Rat bastard.

Who's with me here??

[KalLover07]

Hate to say it, but that's what happens when you don't listen to your daddy. let that be a lesson kids.

Hope the Lana sweet loving was worth possibly losing a loved one. To make it fair, it should be Lana to go. In the end we all know Lois is his true love.

[TheRealClarkKent]

Yea man thats great stuff tho, i am truly entertained and provoked. Man i want Jor-el to take form and physically fight somebody...yes.

[MocoLoco4U]

I agree.

It's wierd though, because from what I know about Superman Jor-El is more helpful and noble. In this interpretation, he's more similar to Lionel.

They force their sons to go through these trials to make him stronger and the sons do them for their own reasons and all the while they are driven apart more towards enemies.

Jor-El is worse really, b/c Lionel's treats towards Lex are more financial, while Jor-El's towards Clark are something serious.

Then after threatening thier sons, Lionel and Jor-El say that they love them. I think they kinda do, but this iron fisted approach is what they think is best.

[Ultron]

I don't know. Jor-El could be lying in order to motivate Clark. Just a thought, but it's not like it's inconsistent. Clark has been known to lie on occasion. :p

Not only that, but remember Kara? No, she wasn't Clark's cousin. An example of Jor-El's deception in the past probably. :)

[smallvillerox05]

UNLESS...

Jor-El was talking about himself and sacraficed himself to save Clark, in which case the sacrafice is over. Only Clark is too dumb to realize that.

Just a possibility.

[Yuui]

Originally posted by smallvillerox05
UNLESS...

Jor-El was talking about himself and sacraficed himself to save Clark, in which case the sacrafice is over. Only Clark is too dumb to realize that.

Just a possibility.

B-but Clark isn't personally intertwined emotionally with Jor-El, thus I would have to dismiss that idea.

:p

[rosewolfe87]

Lana shouldn't be the one to go. She doesn't know Clark's past. She was just spending time with the man she loves! It's Clark's fault. If anyone should go, (sorry Chlarkers) it should be Chloe. I know she was just trying to be a good freind, but if she hadn't have got sucked into the FOS with Clark, he would never have come back! And I realize she saved him from Lex, which if she hadn't have come would lead into an entirely DIFFERENT direction, this would still not have led to Lana.

[vikingjedi]

I thought Superman went back to see Lana in Superman 3? Pretty sure he did.

Im thinking Chloe or Clark's dad.

[rosewolfe87]

Not Chloe, Smallville would lose too many fans. It's got to be one of the parents. Probably Martha, Johnathon is liked more.

[MidgardDragon]

I thought that the dialogue made this pretty clear. Someone else had to die to bring Clark back because it is the "natural order of things". Apparently in the Smallville universe one can be brought back to life by the sacrifice of another. Jor-El made a big deal about telling Clark that it wasn't his doing, just that the only way Clark could be brought back was for someone he loved to die.

Now, that being said, Jor-El did *force* Clark to come back. I thought it was great that Clark was willing to sacrifice himself instead of the life of another, that was really showing the Supes in him. But I think Jor-El wasn't being a bastard this time, I think he has his reasons. I think they are probably going to be very good reasons. Something along the lines of sacrificing one person to save the entire world. While this isn't a part of the Superman mentality, it is logical to think this way, and Jor-El seems to be overly logical (to the point where it seems insane to some of us.)

I agree with those that say it'll be Martha. Annette O'Toole's been getting less and less screen time and her role is pretty easily forgotten. Don't get me wrong, I love Annette as Martha, but I don't think she fulfills enough purpose as a character to justify keeping her and letting someone more important, like Chloe, Lana, or Jonathon.

One thought was that if Lionel continued to be an Oracle for Jor-El, perhaps Clark would finally get to know his real father, before Lion-El gets killed and for whatever reason it permanently wipes Jor-El from the picture because he is inhabiting Lionel at the time.

But somehow I think that would go over some of the viewers' heads so they probably won't do anything like that.

Jokingly: No one's thought of this one though - it could be *Shelby*. :P

[metal gear kal-el]

jor-el is kind of a bastard. He took the time to get changed into a suit and tie when clark was dying. who does that

[Poetic Chaos]

I just don't get the contradictions. First it seems they sent Clark as a conquerer and now he's preparing him to save the world. But I think in the end, Jor-el's role is going to be a positive one. And if someones going to die, it should be Jonathan. Who needs two dads? I've said in other threads, he's already done what he needs to do for Clark. Develop his humanity. Now Clark needs to be educated on the other half of his origins.

[MidgardDragon]

Jor-El is a d*ck! (http://www.superdickery.com/dick/93.html)


(Click the link)

[EricN68]

More thoughts.

In stories, you have static and dynamic characters. Static ones stay the same, dynamic ones change.

Jor-el: I peg him as "static". The guy is "not alive" in a traditional sense, thus has no real need or ability to learn and change. Yet he suddenly has this "call me father" and "gimme a hug" attitude. I think it's not a genuine change -- I think it's a ploy. And I agree with anyone who says that the choice of Lionel, symbolically, is significant -- Jor-El is the same kind of manipulative father Lionel is.

Superman's weakness is that he loves people. It's also what makes him "our hero" instead of an alien, in a sense. When villains can't threaten to kill him, they threaten those he loves. Jor-El understands this and has no hesitation in using this strategy. Which to me makes him a villain.

[FaaipDeOiad31]

I don't think he's being a rat bastard... the last three episodes were similar to Superman II.... in that, since he loves a mortal, he must now live as a mortal. But that's just a common thread in Superman. He so wants to be the average dude, but it's impossible because it's in his nature to help those in need.

[misterb]

Maybe Jor-el and clarks relationship will develop to the point where clark does love him then jor-el will sacrifice himself.

[Morbo]

Jor-El is right.

Clark needs to learn that "The Needs Of The Many, Out Weigh The Needs Of The Few". I don't see sheriff what's her name stopping a nuclear missile.


That doesn't mean that the punishment is a bit harsh.

[Nerial]

Honestly, I've been under the impression that this thing, isn't really Jor-El--it's a computer program designed to mimic Jor-El.

I don't know how complicated or accurate it is, but it does seem to have one goal no matter what.

Protect Kal-El.

It might talk about saving Earth and all this, but I don't think Jor-El would care nearly as much for us Earthlings (as a whole) if Clark wasn't also stuck on this planet, too. So, if Jor-El wants to save Clark, he has to make sure the planet Clark is on is also safe.

Lionel wants Lex to be his version of 'strong' which is being selfish, gripping for power, and not caring about anyone but himself.

Jor-El wants Clark to accept his heritage, not be ashamed of being Kryptonian, and look at the big picture of things. I'm not saying I agree with Jor-El's decisions, but I do see the logic in them even if he is brutal.

And, I do think Jor-El loves him. I don't think that's a lie.

[wallyK]

I think Jor-El is being the same old rat bastard. He is punishing Clark for disobeying him. Jor-El did not explain to Clark why it was so necessary to return to the FOS by sun up. Clark figures it is just a stupid arbitrary deadline, and chooses to help Lana. Jor-El gets mad and takes away Clark's powers to teach him a lesson. Clark dies, then Jor-El decides to resurrect Clark against Clark's wishes. Yes, Jor-El is a total rat bastard.

What I'm wondering is whether the viewer is supposed to feel that Clark is responsible.

[EricN68]

Originally posted by wallyK


What I'm wondering is whether the viewer is supposed to feel that Clark is responsible.

I guess the answer to this is, how DO you feel?

I personally feel that Clark is not responsible. Jor-El doesn't explain anything. He's cryptic, on purpose. He makes demands and tricks Clark.

Of course this is all good drama -- you can't have drama without conflict! And it's a good mystery -- what IS Jor-El's purpose for Clark? I don't think we've seen the whole picture yet, by far.

[Liriel]

Originally posted by EricN68
End of season 3: "I'm gonna kill yer pa if you don't come with me and be reborn!"

End of season 2: "You will obey me, Kal-El!"

This episode: "I brought you back to life. To make that work, someone you love will die. I'm not gonna tell you WHO... I'm going to make you live in constant agony until it happens. And oh by the way it's your fault for not obeying me."

Rat bastard.

Who's with me here??

I am. That doesn't even take into account the Kal-El-taking-over-Clark's-personality thing or what was done to that child he called Kara.

[Brainiac_13]

Jor El's awesome. Clark's an idiot.

BUT FINALLY in this episode, he gets a clue.

Amazing! Best thing I've seen all series: Clark going "Dang. I was an idiot. I should have listened."

[jim[beam]]

It's prolly Pete who is going to die ;) Or they could resurrect Jason and then kill him again heh

-jim

[Jellie]

It all points to --------- yeah im really as clueless as the next guy.

Its gonna be interesting though.

[KalLover07]

Someone said earlier that in the movie Jor-el was more noble. or something along those lines. But in the movie young Clark wasn't so hesitant. He knew it was time for him to go. SV Clark is in absolute denial. He has gone against Jor-el evrytime. Now he is finally getting it, realizing he has made a mistake and will have to pay for it. But really, i don;t think anyone is really gonna die. Unless it's Shelby.

[EricN68]

I think the reason it seems like Clark is "in denial" is that we, the audience, know his future already. Clark, though, has no clue. Nor should he. He shouldn't walk down that pre-determined road only because "he has no choice." He should, ultimately, walk down that road because he wants to. That's the journey we have yet to see.

Jor-El is trying to use a "stick and carrot" approach. Clark will need something deeper than that. He will also need to know that he is not just "saving Earth" for Krypton's sake -- he's saving Earth for humanity's sake.

[Jellie]

I have nothing but respect for jorel. Seriously

[Brainiac_13]

The pending transformation is what will convert Clark's outlook on his destiny from one of compulsion to one of duty.

[Jellie]

Originally posted by Brainiac_13
The pending transformation is what will convert Clark's outlook on his destiny from one of compulsion to one of duty.

Word

[superhippie2000]

ya its funny jor el is like i love u son and i hope u can love me at some point and u are now back to normal and ur mortal stage is over and in order to bring u back someone u love will die. its like i love u and i hope u can love me at some point too but im just going to piss u off and kill someone u love cause yu had sex with a human so someone must die.

maybe clark should pretend to love lex and then lex can be the one who dies and then there will be no point in superman

[EricN68]

Originally posted by Brainiac_13
The pending transformation is what will convert Clark's outlook on his destiny from one of compulsion to one of duty.

Well said! Nobody likes being forced to do something. Doing the right thing for the wrong reason is not satisfying to some people.

[Nerial]

Yeah, but Jor-El didn't shoot Clark. A human shot Clark. Not saying Jor-El's being fair here, either, but Clark got shot because he has a 'save the world' attitude that doesn't fit well with a normal mortal man. Honestly, Clark has spent so much time doing these heroic deeds, I don't think he would make it as a normal human any more.

Perhaps...Jor-El was trying to get the idea of being human out of Clark's system, and in the end, the worse-case scenerio happened. But, I don't think Jor-El would to take someone else's 'life force' if it wasn't in exchange for Clark's life.

I don't know--I wouldn't want him for my dad.

[Poetic Chaos]

I don't blame Jor-el for much. The issues in season 3 between he and Jonathan was Jonathan's fault for making the deal and the things now is Clark's fault for not listening. Even Clark has admitted that. It's not like he see's his power as a total burden, we saw that in Run. He was beginning to accept himself so now that he's pulled a reversal again is all on him.

And I can understand someone needing to die in terms of balance. One life force for another. It makes sense. He's also right about learning the greatest lessons in your darkest hours. This death will definitely change Clark and move him towards acceptance.

[GhostRider]

I don't know if Clark had listened to Jor-El from day one Clark might have avoided a lot of sufferning. If he left when Jor-El told him to Martha wouldn't have lost the baby, JK's health would have been fine, and it's unlikely Jor-El would have had brainwash Clark into Kal-El. If Clark had retrieved the stones as Jor-El told him to, the meteor shower wouldn't have happened and the two aliens along with Brianiac would have never shown up. If Clark had returned to the FOS as promised he wouldn't have lost his powers, gotten shot, and required someone else to sacrafice their life for his.

Maybe Clark should start listening to Jor-El. A thought which it seems has finally dawned on him.

[Poetic Chaos]

^^ Exactly.

[GhostRider]

The problem is that Clark still thinks his destiny is to concquor the world and rule it, which he has believed ever since he read the message in the ship. That's why he's been fighting Jor-El so much.

[sunshine1973]

Clark is an idiot...plain and simple. Jor el made us see that.

[Eh,Man?You-El?]

I think the Jor-El entity is dying to save Clark.
That Jor-El says (cryptically) about himself that he is "Someone (Clark) Loves" is no more deluded or emotionally untrue than Lana saying to Lex: "Clark is the same as you and me" or Clark saying to Chloe: "I just can't tell Lana the truth about me".

Granted, the writing does NOT do a good job making these scenes clear or engaging but the raw materials of the story are there.

So, Jor-El IS a Rat-Bastard, but then Clark IS a Big Dumb Alien and Lana IS a Fai-wee Pwin-cess, just like everyone always complains. So what?

[EricN68]

I'm not saying his rat-bastardness is bad. No, no, not at all. :)

Another possibility is that Jor-El is just "too alien" for us mere mortals to comprehend. But I'm hoping the writers will continue to give us insights into his motivations.

[GhostRider]

It's pretty clear to me that Jor-El at least wants Clark to save the world. That's what he was training him for at the FOS. When Clark quit he was told that saving one life was not worth putting the world at risk. And that's the think about Jor-El, he's sort of emotionless and can accept someone's death in order for the greater good. Clark tries to find another way.

[EricN68]

But is Jor-El preparing him to save the world for Krypton's sake, or for humanity's sake?

I'm confident Clark will find "another way" too.

[GhostRider]

For both. I think Jor-El believe that humanity needs an enlightened leader like Kal-El to not only prevent us from destroying ourselves but to take us to a higher level of civilization. Brainiac, on the other hand, thinks that humans are just worthless savages that should be eradicated.

[ImzadiJedi]

I don't think that Jor-El is a bad guy. He wants what is best for his son. I Jor-El is the one who is going to sacrifice his remaining life energy for Clark. Clark will be alone to fight the evils he must face. Jor-El wants to prepare him for his future. But Clark so far has resisted it. Now Clark is realizing that he made a mistake of not listening to Jor-El in the first place.

[wallyK]

Jor-El is still treating Clark like a child. He tells Clark to do something without explaining himself. He warns of serious but completely vague consequences if Clark does not obey. Clark does not trust Jor-El that much, so he is occasionally defiant and is willing to accept the consequences like a child who is willing to take a spanking. It then turns out that the consequences are something much more serious than a spanking, and Jor-El blames Clark for not obeying him. This dynamic is necessary for the drama of the show. If Jor-El explained to Clark why he needs to do certain things, Clark would do them and we would have a boring show.

So, you get Clark disobeying his Dad for understandable reasons (his Dad is an untrustworthy rat bastard), thus leading to problems resulting from Clark's decisions, for which he feels much angst. It's kind of clever of those darn writers, actually.

I can't believe I said something nice about the writers.

[margroks]

Remember how Clark said, "Everyone I love is in that house," either just before or just after Chloe helped him save them? Apparently he is so callous and unfeeling he couldn't even include Chloe as being loved as a friend. So no, it should not be CHloe and that's according to Clark himself.

It should be Lana who began this crap by killing Genivieve with the Kryptonian stone anyway. If Clark can't be so generous as to include Chloe as someone he loves then he deserves to suffer for it.

Besides, since they're showing us the increasingly selfish Clark, who isn't happy he saved Kansas from nuclear anhilation, frankly he's so unheroic I can't blame the Jor-El AI for being tough.

THis is all Lana's and CLark's fault. And Lana isn't worth it in any way.

[cmgames]

I wouldn't mind seeing Lana die too, that'll have the most impact on Clark the selfish dick.

[GhostRider]

Originally posted by margroks
Remember how Clark said, "Everyone I love is in that house," either just before or just after Chloe helped him save them? Apparently he is so callous and unfeeling he couldn't even include Chloe as being loved as a friend. So no, it should not be CHloe and that's according to Clark himself.

That wasn’t a slight against Chloe. Of course he loves Chloe. It was a written for maximum dramatic effect. What was he supposed to say, “Most the people I love are in that house?” Clark has be complimenting her left and right implying how special she is, what else do you want?


It should be Lana who began this crap by killing Genivieve with the Kryptonian stone anyway. If Clark can't be so generous as to include Chloe as someone he loves then he deserves to suffer for it.

Reality check: Lana did not kill GT, Isobel did. All Lana did was come home with groceries and got attacked. You have pointed how Clark doesn’t really love Lana anyway, he just thinks he does, so by your own argument it shouldn’t be Lana.


Besides, since they're showing us the increasingly selfish Clark, who isn't happy he saved Kansas from nuclear anhilation, frankly he's so unheroic I can't blame the Jor-El AI for being tough.

He only saved SV, not the entire state. And I think knowing that someone he loves is going to lose to life because he gave up his powers would put a serious damper on his happiness.


THis is all Lana's and CLark's fault. And Lana isn't worth it in any way.

Yeah, sure it is. Why don’t you put the blame where it belongs; on Gabriel, the psychopath who shot Clark, kidnapped Chloe, and tried to annihilate SV

[jOEL_EL]

Originally posted by EricN68
End of season 3: "I'm gonna kill yer pa if you don't come with me and be reborn!"

End of season 2: "You will obey me, Kal-El!"

This episode: "I brought you back to life. To make that work, someone you love will die. I'm not gonna tell you WHO... I'm going to make you live in constant agony until it happens. And oh by the way it's your fault for not obeying me."

Rat bastard.

Who's with me here??

I'm in. Totally. I hate that freakin' hologram and btw, if he was so enlightened and 1000 years ahead of us, how could he be such a rat bastard? I always assumed there was some kind of evil influence that was taking control of the Kryptonian technology that came to Earth in the past and under the guise of Jor El, was attempting to use CK for its own ends by twisting Jor El's originally intended messages and benign manner. But now it seems, no, it's Jor El and he's just a rat bastard. End of story. I sincerely hope he's the one that dies to pay the price for CK's resurrection, even though the pre-Lionel voice of Jor El, performed by Terrance Stamp, the guy who played Zod in the CR movies, would be missed.

[MediaGuy0979]

Originally posted by jOEL_EL
I always assumed there was some kind of evil influence that was taking control of the Kryptonian technology that came to Earth in the past and under the guise of Jor El, was attempting to use CK for its own ends by twisting Jor El's originally intended messages and benign manner.

You bring up an interesting idea. What if we come to find out that the person/hologram/whatever claiming to be Jor-El is really someone else?! (Like Zod?) :eek:

[cboscari]

End of season 3: "I'm gonna kill yer pa if you don't come with me and be reborn!"

End of season 2: "You will obey me, Kal-El!"

This episode: "I brought you back to life. To make that work, someone you love will die. I'm not gonna tell you WHO... I'm going to make you live in constant agony until it happens. And oh by the way it's your fault for not obeying me."

Rat bastard.

Who's with me here??


I think this Jor-el is a computer program. The real Jor-el was in "Relic", the one who saved Lana's Great Aunt, etc. Many of the chocies computer Jor-el makes are logical and ignore emotional dynamics. Although I hate to see any of the regular cast go (expcept Pete, he's already gone, so what the heck) I put my money on one of his parents ( Martha, I bet) or Chloe, who has been walking around with a target on her back for so long it's scary. I like Chloe, but it would be consistant with why she does not show up post-Superman. Lex my do her in.

[jOEL_EL]

Originally posted by MediaGuy0979
You bring up an interesting idea. What if we come to find out that the person/hologram/whatever claiming to be Jor-El is really someone else?! (Like Zod?) :eek:

Hey i'm a genius and i don't know it? Well, actually 50% your idea but 50% genius aint that bad either! Anyways, I like that. The reason I was always partly mistrusting of Jor-el has been because of the harsh, even brutal nature of his messages as EricN68 rightfully points out, plus the fact that he's like, dead. I do appreciate how Kryptonians were so advanced compared to us, and that as a result they had the ability to apparantly, somehow, imbue their technology with the essence of their personality in a manner that allowed any individual to interact with the living in real-time, even long after that individual died... I get that. But then, there must be vulnerabilities and limits to this technology so that maybe someone could hack into the model and usurp it for ones own use. This is the only way I could explain to myself the harshness and lack of caring of Kal-el's father. How he could hurt Clarks adoptive father and be so strict and unyielding with his son. But it looks like this isn't the case unless like you say, there's been something very hidden about Jor-el all along..

Hey! Hidden! Maybe thats it?!? Why this ep's title is such? (btw - there's another thread that asks that question)

[All about Clark]

To me, Jor-el is good and wants the best for his son. But he has to make huge changes in Clark with almost no contact, like he is going for the shock value to get Clark's full attention.

I think the ruling part is partially true and that Clark will be able to change events for the good of man and that's the why for the message in Clark's ship. But Clark doesn't see globaly and wants to help in his small surroundings and Jor-el needs him to see globaly needing more shock value. Jor-el also requires Clark to have blind faith in Jor-el which Clark cannot do. That's the only part the bugs me, why can't Jor-el sit him down and explain everything, why does it have to be in the form of lessons learned? Maybe because Jor-el wants to teach Clark that he has to obey the rules Krypton has set forth, not the rules Earth has set. Maybe Krypton rules are necessary for Clark who would have the power to do anything he wants, (you know, too much power corrupts).

[mantaray]

Jor-el will stop at nothing, even sacrifing Clark's friends and family, in order to make him what HE wants him to be.

Which is Superman!


... or is it?

[baskcm]

YEAH HES A RAT BASTARD lol its the typical "im ya daddy obey me now"

bet he would have got no milk and cookies on krypton kal el get to bed or someone close to you will die mwahh haaaaaa

[margroks]

Of course he's a computer program. An interactive program made by Jor-El to guide his son. WHo's to say this program wasn't corrupted on the journey or that it's trying to make Kal-El behave according to its idea of proper Kryptonian behavior in the only way it can. When it took over Lionel's body, it seemed more loving but then it was all, someone you love will die so...not so nice. But this isn't the actual Jor-El who's long dead.

[KryptoniteLacedPie]

Interesting point, but for this episode, Clark really was at fault. He should've been just a bit more punctual this time.

But the other times, yeah, Jor-El was on my black list.

[baskcm]

i suppose there always going to be a draw back if he didnt get back to the FOS on time clark should have figured it would be drastic now sooner or later sownthe road he is gonna have to pay for it simplae as that its like what jor el siad to him nature has to be rebalanced doesnt it lol

[xrayvision]

As I've said before, I don't think Jor-El will just make someone drop dead and suck the life out of them (that's vampire lana's job). I think he could see the future & referred to a series of events that started with his loss of power and will ultimately lead to someone dying (perhaps himself). For example, the loss of his powers could have sparked some special investigation by Lex that would otherwise not have started. This investigation will lead through a chain reaction of events where Jonathan, Martha, Lionel, or Chloe will end up dead.

The thing I don't understand is if Jor-El was the one who took his powers away from him. It seems like it after he says that the mortal phase of Clark's journey is over. Or is it because the learning process was a draining one and to prevent himself from losing all his power, he would have to return by a certain time, which Jor-El calculated to be sundown. And if you really think about it, where do Superman's powers come from? The sun!! Maybe at that point his only powers were coming from the sunlight available (he would basically be a severely drained battery continuously being drained while being minimally recharged). I just don't understand why Jor-El would want to cause this death by taking his powers when he knew that his son was doing the right thing by stopping those Kryptonians. Jor-El has referred to the setting of the sun (along with other phases) a few times (like in Exodus).

[margroks]

At this point no one understands why Jor-El, who warned his son about the threat from deep space was so angry he stripped him of his powers for leaving to combat that threat. It actually seemed more like he was angry Clark didn't return and it did seem as though he had time to get back considering his superspeed and all and just lingered to stare at Lana. Perhaps, the two Kryptonians weren't the real threat but Braniac and those guys were the diversion. It's all very unclear so you're not alone in wondering what's going on.

In addition, I think I'll stand by my earlier remarks; I won't excuse it as dramatic license. He said it, let Lana pay the price. And it was by Lana's hand Genivieve died, possessed or not although that was a bit unclear anyway. I'm not sure it was all Isobel by any means. And if Lana wasn't guilty of it then why did she act so guilty and cave in so quickly to the Luthor offer of covering up the crime? If it was self defense then she'd be exonerated. I mean, that's not the first time she's killed somebody and she got off with not even a trial before so why does she suddenly throw in with the Luthor offer?

The whole Isobel thing was rather muddy anyway. First we see Isobel wanting the stones for the power it will give her in Spell and in Sacred. We also saw Lana hiding the stone from Jason and presumably Lex or whoever rifled her apartment, although I wondered if Lana had done that herself to explain the stone's disappearance. Certainly possible. In any event there was a scene where Lana goes outside to her secret hiding place to check on/ look at the stone. We didn't see any violet eyed Isobel/Lana there, only Lana obviously hiding and coveting the stone. Heck, for all we know, Isobel was always lurking in Lana's genetic code waiting for the tomb rubbing and then the book to fully bring her to the forefront.

Then at the end it's just that Isobel wants to kill the Teague descendants for revenge and when she uses the stone to kill she disappears...what logic is that?

I'm not so sure we can let Lana, a descendant of and obvious genetic duplicate of the original Isobel, off the hook completely here.

[Jlvsclrk]

Rat bastard for sure. A person should be judged by their actions far more than their words. And Jor-El's actions have consistently demonstrated that he believes the end justifies the means. He is willing to sacrifice the innocent to achieve his goals. He gives Clark cryptic messages, then blames Clark for failing to decode them. He expects Clark to blindly obey him, without any respect for Clark's feelings and moral judgements. He is an abusive parent, both physically and emotionally.

Why I think he's a psychopath
(1) he either deliberately uses the meteor shower as cover for the spaceship's entry into the earth's atmosphere, or he failed to anticipate that the "warpdrive" or whatever created by the spaceship would suck up so much kryptonite in its wake. the fact that the second ship also arrived in a meteor shower strongly makes me believe the former. in any case, Jor-El is directly responsible for all the meteor related death and destruction.

(2) first message for Clark [Rosetta]: "On this third planet from the star Sol, you will be a god among men. They are a flawed race. Rule them with strength my son. That is where your greatness lies." Pretty unambiguous to me: he expects Clark to set himself up as a modern-day Zeus. This message is the main reason Clark is so freaked out at the thought of fulfilling his "destiny", which at this stage of life he sees as a choice between BEING human or RULING humanity.

(3) when Dr Walden is "activated" in Calling, the new message on the cave walls says: "The day is coming when the last son will begin his quest to rule the third planet." Again, pretty unambiguous!

(4) first "talk" with Clark [Exodus]: "I am Jor-El, your father... I am his memory. His will. [but not you notice his wisdom, emotions and morality.]... It is time... Time for you to accept your destiny... By the setting of the sun Sol, you will return to me. Your destiny will be fulfilled. Your thoughts are not a mystery to me Kal-El, but these people [shows image of Jonathan, Martha and Lana] have served their purpose. It is time to leave them... You must let go of your past. I will guide you to your future... You have no choice Kal-El." Hmmm yes, meet someone for the first time and immediately expect them to obey you, without giving any reasons. Ludicrous!! Jonathan and Martha quite rightly tell Clark to ignore these threats.

(5) second talk with Clark [Exodus]: "You will obey me Kal-El." [Throws Clark against a wall and burns the kryptonian-S onto his chest.] "This is the mark of your ancestors. You cannot fight it Kal-El. At the zenith of the star Sol, you will begin your journey. If you do not, you will hurt the ones you love most." Another stupid threat - would YOU leave your much beloved parents in response? Granted, Clark's decision to not tell his parents about this wasn't wise, but he thinks he knows how to handle the situation. Blow up the ship - makes sense to me!Too bad Jor-El succeeded in relocating to the caves.

(6) Exile - continues to inflict physical abuse on Clark in an attempt to control his actions.

(7) Exile again - makes a bargain with Jonathan to return Clark to Smallville, a bargain that costs Jor-El nothing and costs Jonathan his health. In return, yes, Jonathan does succeed in getting Clark to come back to Smallville, not you will notice by defeating him but by collapsing and needing help. The first test reveals to Jor-El that the way to control Clark is not through physical violence but by threatening those he loves most - a lesson he exploits in Covenant.

(8) Covenant - releases "Kara" from the cave, whose first action is to total a truck and kill the driver. Kara sets about finding the weakness in every relationship that Clark has - all to weaken his ties to humantity and make him consent to join Jor-El in the cave. One of her final actions is to kill an FBI agent who makes the mistake of investigating Clark - a little extreme. We find out "Kara" is really a human victim of the original meteor shower, now controlled by Jor-El in an attempt to manipulate clark. Her reward: to get sucked into the wall of the cave again. Jonathan comes to the cave to stop Clark and is struck down by Jor-El. He's willing to sacrifice himself to maintain Clark's freedom, but Clark is trapped because he would never accept such a bargain.

(9) Crusade - Jonathan is left in a coma even though one of the main reasons Clark consented to join Jor-El in the cave was to protect him. Clark is wiped out of existence for 3 months - Kal-El on the other hand undergoes flight training in a place that "felt like home." Kal-El is obviously the son Jor-El wants, as witness his total ingratitude for the care the Kents provided him during his youth, pushing Martha to the ground when the first stone is activated and then ripping the door off Lex's plane at 20,000 feet and not hanging around to see the consequences.

I could go on but I'll restrain myself

Stray thoughts.
- is it a coincidence that the voice of Jor-El is supplied by the actor who portrayed General Zod in the superman movies?
- is it a coincidence that when Jor-El takes phyisical form, it is in the body of Lionel Luthor. The 2 share a lot of traits in common!
-- just how did the DoZ know that there was a Kal-El to be found in Smallville. Think about it!
- is it a coincidence that when Clark is resurrected, both he and Lionel are wearing the same clothes they had on in Commencement when the stone was activated. Could there be some sort of time warp involved in the resurrection? In which case, this whole threat about someone near to you needing to die in order to even the balance is just so much hogwash: another guilt trip laid on.

[EricN68]

Ok, so did you see the Superman Returns trailer? That Jor-el is completely different than the one Smallville has revealed thus far.

Is it possible that Clark can teach SV's Jor-El to love humanity the way he does?

[SuperDub2]

i dont thing so! too late for that

[MidgardDragon]

Originally posted by EricN68
Ok, so did you see the Superman Returns trailer? That Jor-el is completely different than the one Smallville has revealed thus far.

Is it possible that Clark can teach SV's Jor-El to love humanity the way he does?

I think Smallville's Jor-El is just misunderstood. He's very Kryptonian, but I don't think he hates humans. I think Jor-El has the foresight to know that while humanity has a great capacity for good (remember Talisman? Jor-El knew all about how nice humans could be), they need a Superman to show them the way. He's obviously made some mistakes, and is a strict Father, but I think part of that is because he's holding Clark to Kryptonian standards rather than the human standards he was brought up with.

Either way, they are two different incarnations. But I don't think Smallville's Jor-El is "bad" per se. He'll never be the completely benevolent can't-make-a-mistake God-figure that Jor-El was in Superman: The Movie, but he'll never be the villain that everyone's assuming he is either, IMHO.

[Magus]

Jor-El of the movies and prbly comics as well is VERY different than the Jor-El of smallville. I think the writers made Jor-El evil to contribute to their story telling.

[PowerofFlight]

The Smallville Jor-El thus far seems petty and cruel. He is also very cryptic in his remarks. Not to mention the messages that Clark is meant to rule. There is *no way* the real Jor-El ever meant or would ever insinuate that.

There is a possibility that so far, Jor-El is in fact Zod, and later on in season six, the true Jor-El (or his voice) will show up.

Zod ex machina.

[LusciousLois]

I have this argument with my best friend all the time. He HATES Jor-el! But Jor-el is necessary for Clark's development to become Superman. Truth is, Jor-el has never really asked him to do anything that would ultimately hurt anyone. Get the stones? Okay. Just do it. Why ask why? Come back to the fortress before the sun sets? No problem! If Clark would just do what's asked of him in the first place, all these other catastrophes could be avoided. But if he did that, there'd be no need for any of us to be on this website and place blame. It's Smallville, what are you gonna do?

[RedQ]

Originally posted by EricN68
In stories, you have static and dynamic characters. Static ones stay the same, dynamic ones change.

Jor-el: I peg him as "static". The guy is "not alive" in a traditional sense, thus has no real need or ability to learn and change. -- Jor-El is the same kind of manipulative father Lionel is.He's a Frelling Fortress! How static can you get? What or How do you expect him to grow? Invite Chloe up for an IceTea, Freeze her (lovely) Ass in a Crystal, and extract her mind out thru a beam? :rotfl:
Originally posted by EricN68
End of season 2: "You will obey me, Kal-El!" (Telling)

End of season 3: "I'm gonna kill yer pa if you don't come with me and be reborn!" (Demanding)

This episode: "I brought you back to life. To make that work, someone you love will die. I'm not gonna tell you WHO... I'm going to make you live in constant agony until it happens. And oh by the way it's your fault for not obeying me." (Threathening him)Jor-el IS Practically BEGGING Clark to follow him he's actually pathetic. IF you ask me. :lol:

There's one aspect that everyone is missing out.
The Kryptonian Culture you don't know what their methods are/like similar to asian Japanese, Chinese or Jewish mentality. NOT American!
Hopefully, there's a two-part Episode explaining how things worked and reveals the reason to his action.

There's seem to a a plan that's what I THINK AND HOPE it's going to go, and the Fans are missing.

I rather shut up rather than spoil it for everyone.

Hint: Clark may share more similarities to L.L. than you know.

[1.21 gigawatts]

Jor-El isn't evil. The Jor-El we know is a computer program that cannot convey emotion-- only instruction. That's why it seems like Jor-El is a "rat bastard."

Now that Jor-El is in Lionel, we're probably going to start seeing more emotion, like we did in Hidden.

[RedQ]

there are no Emotions in Lion-EL. :\

more like a Radio reciever or an Oracle. :D

[1.21 gigawatts]

I think that Lionel is the emotional connection Jor-El needed to finally reach Clark.