Am I the only one that thought the finale BLEW? [Archive]

mr subconscious

05-18-2005, 10:54 PM

I agree. This finale did blow. http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/newthread.php?s=&action=newthread&forumid=145#

I just felt like this episode was weak.

It didn't have enough of Clark. It may have for others, but he didn't do much. His motive in this episode was to find the stone. But there wasn't much of an obstacle. If you'd take away all the other scenes without Clark, then in real time, Clark searched, obtained, and used the stone in like a matter of mere minutes. I'd say no more than 15. There were some more moments with him before that. But no much during his search of the stone. I felt there could've been more of an obstacle. Maybe even have Lex obtain it and have kept it with him resulting in Clark taking drastic measures into taking it from LEx and quite possibly exposing himself again.

Okay. Maybe a lil bit too much.

But like I said. There wasn't much of an obstacle for Clark. It was way too easy. And then...

The ending felt a bit weak. Lana crashes... sustains a broken leg. Lucky her. (i wish though she'd have died or gone into a coma) She sees the craft. Something opens and lights sheds on her face. THAT'S IT. A little more information could've have strengthen the depth of this myserious and disaterous arrival.

Clark's scene when he throws the stone. I wish there had been some sort of dialogue exchange between him and Jor-el. Somethin. Maybe even to himself. What got him into throwing the stone? Where did the stone land?

as a film student i feel like this was the worse cut. Clark throwing the stone, we go further away from clark seemingly following the soaring stone... then title card: to be continued. Leaving us hanging. There has to be some sort of conclusion to any story, whether it is to be continued or not. Where that stone landed and what became of the stone afterward was, i think, a very important aspect of the episode that the editor (or director) should've kept.

For instance, in the first two back to the future movies, they each had a conclusion. And they each were to be continued.

Smallville's season finale had no conclusion. :mad:

SmallvilleFan-FL

05-18-2005, 10:55 PM

So post on http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=36350

Did we need another thread where you post the link to the above link so you can expound more visually?

/smack :)

Lexgirl33

05-18-2005, 10:59 PM

if there was a conclusion there wouldnt be a cliffhanger for next season

Billy Jor-El

05-18-2005, 10:59 PM

It's weird....on every episode thread there's always the "this was the worst episode ever!" I sometimes wonder if it's a plant by TPTB to get the talk pumping.

And yes, I would vote that you ARE the only one that thought it blew.

Is GT dead? Don't be so sure; I mean, it sure seems so, but how could Jason have survived the gunshot and the fall, yet he did (he'll only be finalized to make his way into the new WB series, that's ONE way to kill off a character!). Who confirmed GT was dead, Lex? Now there's a reliable source of truth!

Isobel gone? I hope not, cuz I agree that it would be too simple an ending...that's one way I LOVE KK, Lanabel rules.

When CK was knocked out by the Green K and lying there with the stone in his hand, I was screaming "let Chloe find him and save him...." and you know what? I got my wish for once :D. The look on Chloe as she saw Clark lying there...KNOWING that Green K is harmful to him (even if she still doesn't fully realize he's more than a meteor freak) was awesome. And gang, does our BDA know that Chloe knows? Sure he does, he just keeps waiting for her to say it. He had no problem once he awoke to streaking off (with the stone) not giving a thought that Chloe was right there. He knows....

He should also know that the stones ARE meant for him, but, hey, BDA, woddya gonna do???

I think most of this season rocked. I do hope S5 picks up right where we left off, not months later. We need the opening to be the crystal landing and forming the FoS.

BTW....I thought the montage at the beginning ("previously on Smallville") was awesome, too.....

phatboy3k

05-18-2005, 11:05 PM

It was pretty good. Definitely one of the better episodes of season 4. The whole 90 minute thing was a crock though. After commercials, it was probably about 5 minutes longer than normal. And the whole countdown clock was terrible. Very inconsistent. But the effects were top notch and the overall story was pretty good. I wish that they would have some sort of closure. When you leave so many loose ends at the end of the season, then it kind of makes it annoying. That's the problem that Smallville has. They set up all these cliffhangers and then try to tie them up too quickly the next season. They should have at least tied one of them up, whether it was showing more of the Fortress of Solitude, The Kents and Jason, Chloe and Lex or Lana and the ship.

Speaking of the ship, that was awesome. I hope there is some awesome bad guy inside there , because Clark really needs a badass villain to battle for an entire season, as opposed to these throwaway FOTWs he always has to fight.

And can they please let Chloe tell Clark that she knows?? They have drug this plotline out soooooooo long that it has lost any kind of emotional weight that it could have possibly had. She has known for 11 episodes, and it really proves that Clark is really the BDA if he hasn't figured out all the hints that she has dropped.

I really hope that season 5 takes a very cool direction, pun intended. We need the Fortress of Solitude!!!!

All in all though, the was definitely one of the best episodes of this season.

vanilla_bandit

05-18-2005, 11:09 PM

I thought this was possibly one of the most gorgeous episodes of Smallville ever. Clark thinking the stones were not meant for him came from the episode 'Sacred' since that statue with the kryptonite in the eyes led him to believe the stones weren't really meant for him after all.

Summers

05-18-2005, 11:10 PM

It was one of the better episodes this season. IMO Far better than Covenant to an extent depending on what things I'm comparing.

There was definite inconsisencies in character development. It was one of the better ones of season four. No doubt about it.

chlarklove

05-18-2005, 11:11 PM

Oh, please, people... no one is saying this is the "worst episode EVAR" here. It by far wasn't the worst, that crown goes to Ageless.

That being said, some of us feel it wasn't what a finale should be. The episode was good, if it had been a regular ep. Like I said before, this finale didn't fit with the flow of the rest of the season. That's part of the reason why I'm disappointed, that and the inconsistencies throughout.

Oh and clearly there IS more than one person who thought this episode was less than spectacular.

LoveIsEnough

05-18-2005, 11:13 PM

The first 10-15 minutes did indeed suck. I almost turned the channel because I was so aggravated by the whole Lana/Lex crap. It definately had its highs (Chloe pushing Lex against the cave wall was fabulous and the final Chloe, Lex, Clark cave scene was actually suspenseful), lows (Lex annoyed me in almost all his scenes, NO MORE LEXANA please!) and surprises (I actually like Lana this episode, Lois always amuses me but her last scene was heartbreaking). I wouldn't say it blew but it definately wasn't the best episode.

InexorableWanderer

05-18-2005, 11:14 PM

Yes, the finale blew. We didn't get to see any of things we wanted to see, and the writers resorted to a stupid gimmick--a new ship--to trick people into thinking the episode was substantial.

Clark didn't tell Chloe or Lana his secret. We didn't see the Fortress of Solitude. Jason Teague wasn't dead after being shot through the lung and falling off a cliff. Clark didn't exert himself in any way to save anyone from anything--he just shielded some stupid little kid from some rocks on his way to the cave. Clark didn't exert himself to get the stones. Almost the entire episode was wasted on insignificant dialogue from characters who don't even matter to the overarching plot.

I haven't read many posts, but people seem only to have liked the ship. That was the worst part.

mr subconscious

05-18-2005, 11:23 PM

er. That link. I dunno what that's all about. My bad.

and about cliffhangers. They kill the audience. every story must have a conclusion. it's literature 101. It's friggin screenwriting 101. You can't have a story without a conclusion. Leaving a story open ended kills the material and it's audience/viewer/reader.

My interpretation might've been MY conclusion of the episode but nothing was said of why clark threw the stone or what happens after he threw it. That scene didn't answer my quesiton, which was "what's gonna happen when it lands?" And given the long amount of time to conjure up that quesiton in my head and still not have it answered, makes the ending to his episode weak. If they showed the stone land and something emerge or some sort of explosion or anything that is a direct result of the stone being thrown, then a conclusion can be drawn.

If u cut a scene with something thrown into the air and you watched it fly and wondered 'what will happen next?' and it abruptly cuts away to the end title card ( not having ur question answered) then that ending failed to have provided information on how that thrown stone comes to a stop. Thus, leaving the end with no conclusion for the action.

hbkid21

05-18-2005, 11:24 PM

I thought this edpisode was great but I hated it...You want to know why I hated it? Because now I got to wait until the end of September before I can see a brand new edpisode...lol

vyperman7

05-18-2005, 11:25 PM

Like I said before, I am not going to watch the episode for a few days. But can anybody tell me why they did not have Clark find out about Chloe, or let us see the FOS? Those are the two things I wanted, and they both aren't going to happen until next season. The perfect cliffhanger would have been the FOS forming and then it ends just as Clark walks in. Also, it does not make any sense to me, that they would carry Clark not knowing about Chloe over until next season. They have been building up to Clark knowing for awhile, with all the hints from Chloe.

I am not saying that I think it will be a bad episode. At least the effects will be awesome. But going in, I am already feeling the dissapointment.

Summers

05-18-2005, 11:27 PM

Ryan, it looked like the only arc that was closed was the witch arc. Everything else was carried over to next season.

Billy Jor-El

05-18-2005, 11:29 PM

Hey for those that thought this finale sucked...ya wanna talk about the abomination "Enterprise" finale???? Now THAT did suck...

mraig

05-18-2005, 11:31 PM

I was very underwhelmed. Season 4 has been pretty much a mess in my opinion, and I thought this was a typical Season 4 episode - lots of things happened, but they didn't flow together well.

The whole stones story was ridiculous. After a whole season of pointless intrigue about who had what stone, Clark gets one of them handed to him, and the other one calls out to him, and he goes and gets it. That's some quest. "Clark, this is the moment we've raised you for." Huh? You spent the past 18 years raising him so he could get some stones?

The Luthor storyline was pretty underwhelming to. Do we get any sort of closure on the whole "is Lionel good/is he bad" storyline? Was he pretending to be good? No, I guess he really was good, but Lex yelled at him, so now he's bad again. Why exactly did Genevive Teague free him from prison again? Why are they all so obsessed with these stones? What does Countess Isabelle Thoreaux have to do with all of this? Does Lex even still work at Luthorcorp, or does he just sit in his office and think about the stones all day?

And why was Clark so slow getting those stones together? Jor El told him he couldn't stop the meteor shower from coming no matter what. Maybe instead of taking the stones and standing in the cave chamber for ten minutes before he puts the stone in the slot, he should go out and help people evacuate? Save his parents from Jason? Save Chloe, who saved his life, from Lex? Save Lana? No, let's have our hero stand in a cave for ten minutes, save one little boy, lie on the floor for ten minutes, stand in the cave for another ten minutes, then go to the North Pole. Exciting! Let's have Jason wave a gun at the Kents for the entire episode with absolutely no purpose at all. What point exactly did that serve to the story? Why did they wait until the meteors started falling to evacuate Lana? What's in that room with Mxyzptlk?

Oh, wait. A new ship came down. Yay! What a great episode! I won't be disappointed next season with they mention it in episode one, then put it off for another 20 episodes while Clark fights jocks with Kryptonite asthma inhalers at Smallville Community College, and then bring up the ship again in the Season 5 finale.

vyperman7

05-18-2005, 11:32 PM

Originally posted by Summers
Ryan, it looked like the only arc that was closed was the witch arc. Everything else was carried over to next season.

Isn't the point of a season finale to bring a sense of closure? The only arc that closed is the one that I cared nothing about. All I can say right now, is the effects better be damn good, because on paper this looks like a weak finale to me right now. I am hoping that I will be entertained because so many people are saying how great it was. But no Clark finding out and no FOS really blows in my opinion.

~*Lois & Clark Fan*~

05-18-2005, 11:33 PM

Originally posted by SnarkMasterJ
Seriously...it was sloppily handled and not very smooth...there was no continuity with any of the other episodes in the first part of the season (I mean, for the love of all that's holy, Clark acted like he didn't know the stones were meant for him -- where did THAT come from???)...there was far too much Lana and not enough Chloe (but that's subjective I guess)...

I'm not pleased at all. They'll have to do a complete 180 for me to tune in for S5.

I think you're in the minority, I loved this episode, best of the whole season, best episode in a very long time, no FOTW either, it was excellent :D

arachkid

05-18-2005, 11:34 PM

Originally posted by SnarkMasterJ
Why are people posting here saying snide things about me but then adding little patronizing tags of "I'm intitled to my own opinion"? I know I am, thanks for stating the obvious.

Um, you posted the question first of all, expect people to answer it. Second of all when you paint a bad opinion of something others like <see: Clana/Chlark>, expect heated responses.

The General

05-18-2005, 11:34 PM

Seems like people always gonna say something bad about the show, and then they come back later and say, smallville is the bomb yall.

I say keep your mouth close, i mean damn, clark is a young man trying to find his path, give the guy a break.

This episode was str up perfect, i am getting sick of lois calling clark smallville. lol , other then that, great season finale, great show, cant wait till season 5.

chlarklove

05-18-2005, 11:35 PM

Sad, but true, Summers.

Originally posted by InexorableWanderer
Yes, the finale blew. We didn't get to see any of things we wanted to see, and the writers resorted to a stupid gimmick--a new ship--to trick people into thinking the episode was substantial.

Clark didn't tell Chloe or Lana his secret. We didn't see the Fortress of Solitude. Jason Teague wasn't dead after being shot through the lung and falling off a cliff. Clark didn't exert himself in any way to save anyone from anything--he just shielded some stupid little kid from some rocks on his way to the cave. Clark didn't exert himself to get the stones. Almost the entire episode was wasted on insignificant dialogue from characters who don't even matter to the overarching plot.

I haven't read many posts, but people seem only to have liked the ship. That was the worst part.

I agree on the Clark part. It was WAY too easy for him. I wished he would've jumped more into action, since you know, that's what Superman does, and Clark is SUPPOSED to be growing into him.

Again, he didn't find the stones because he felt he needed to, but because Jor-El said something bad would happen if he didn't. *le sigh* I thought we'd see Clark be more accepting of and embrace his destiny.

Summers

05-18-2005, 11:41 PM

Originally posted by vyperman7
Isn't the point of a season finale to bring a sense of closure? The only arc that closed is the one that I cared nothing about. All I can say right now, is the effects better be damn good, because on paper this looks like a weak finale to me right now. I am hoping that I will be entertained because so many people are saying how great it was. But no Clark finding out and no FOS really blows in my opinion.

Yea, there should at least been another closure to one of the arcs. IMO the only other one I could think of was Clana. They kinda brought closure to that. I would have changed Clark and stones race aganist time deal a slightly different.

The effects are good. You'll like them, and when the crystal comes together it was pretty :).

vyperman7

05-18-2005, 11:43 PM

The one thing I am kind of interested in is Lois apparently having some vision of someone in a cape? I was over on devoted to Clois, scoping the boards, and they made mention to a nightmare that Lois had. That sounded intriguing, but when I searched through posts, no one really made any mention to it.

Summers

05-18-2005, 11:47 PM

Originally posted by vyperman7
The one thing I am kind of interested in is Lois apparently having some vision of someone in a cape? I was over on devoted to Clois, scoping the boards, and they made mention to a nightmare that Lois had. That sounded intriguing, but when I searched through posts, no one really made any mention to it.

Oh, that. It was just a one-liner reference to Superman. She made another one to the adult Clark Kent. They were really one-liners. She said something like "oh, I had nightmare recently it was a man with a red cape."

~*Lois & Clark Fan*~

05-18-2005, 11:47 PM

Originally posted by vyperman7
The one thing I am kind of interested in is Lois apparently having some vision of someone in a cape? I was over on devoted to Clois, scoping the boards, and they made mention to a nightmare that Lois had. That sounded intriguing, but when I searched through posts, no one really made any mention to it.

Yeah the Kents and Clark were in the kitchen and it was about 2 am, and Lois comes downstairs and hears them mention nightmare and Lois says "if it makes you feel any better, I have them all the time, I had one last week, really scary, this guy wearing a red cape"

Clark's reaction to that: "Wow that sounds really horrible Lois"

:lol:

Somebody Stop Me

05-18-2005, 11:49 PM

Originally posted by Billy Jor-El
Hey for those that thought this finale sucked...ya wanna talk about the abomination "Enterprise" finale???? Now THAT did suck...

No kidding that did suck. I thought tonight's ep was a good one. I still think Tempest is the best season finale though.

stick_figure_girl

05-18-2005, 11:51 PM

Originally posted by mraig
I was very underwhelmed. Season 4 has been pretty much a mess in my opinion, and I thought this was a typical Season 4 episode - lots of things happened, but they didn't flow together well.

The whole stones story was ridiculous. After a whole season of pointless intrigue about who had what stone, Clark gets one of them handed to him, and the other one calls out to him, and he goes and gets it. That's some quest. "Clark, this is the moment we've raised you for." Huh? You spent the past 18 years raising him so he could get some stones?

The Luthor storyline was pretty underwhelming to. Do we get any sort of closure on the whole "is Lionel good/is he bad" storyline? Was he pretending to be good? No, I guess he really was good, but Lex yelled at him, so now he's bad again. Why exactly did Genevive Teague free him from prison again? Why are they all so obsessed with these stones? What does Countess Isabelle Thoreaux have to do with all of this? Does Lex even still work at Luthorcorp, or does he just sit in his office and think about the stones all day?

And why was Clark so slow getting those stones together? Jor El told him he couldn't stop the meteor shower from coming no matter what. Maybe instead of taking the stones and standing in the cave chamber for ten minutes before he puts the stone in the slot, he should go out and help people evacuate? Save his parents from Jason? Save Chloe, who saved his life, from Lex? Save Lana? No, let's have our hero stand in a cave for ten minutes, save one little boy, lie on the floor for ten minutes, stand in the cave for another ten minutes, then go to the North Pole. Exciting! Let's have Jason wave a gun at the Kents for the entire episode with absolutely no purpose at all. What point exactly did that serve to the story? Why did they wait until the meteors started falling to evacuate Lana? What's in that room with Mxyzptlk?

Oh, wait. A new ship came down. Yay! What a great episode! I won't be disappointed next season with they mention it in episode one, then put it off for another 20 episodes while Clark fights jocks with Kryptonite asthma inhalers at Smallville Community College, and then bring up the ship again in the Season 5 finale.

I have to second all of that. Especially the bit about Clark being slower than a snail caught in molasses.

What really bugged me was the Isobel/Isabelle arc. It was a major component of this season. There was an entire episode based on it. Why oh why is it resolved in 3 minutes? Why did they drag us through that whole horrible story line only to resolve it in 3 minutes. I mean, I'm glad about the prospect that she may be gone but come on.

And that was one magic helicopter, dodging all those meteors like that.

Shelby abandoned the Kents! Didn't they say in Krypto that he would do anything to protect them? Isn't he invulnerable to bullets?! And super strong??? He got scared because Jason yelled and then poof. He disappeared. As the future guardian of the FOS shouldn't he be showing some muscle?

Gah. I'm just very nitpicky.

vyperman7

05-18-2005, 11:52 PM

Originally posted by Somebody Stop Me
No kidding that did suck. I thought tonight's ep was a good one. I still think Tempest is the best season finale though.

Tempest has my favorite cliffhanger from a Smallville finale. It was the only one that really pissed me off when it ended. But I love Covenant. On my top five list, and Exodus was great with Lex going down in the plane. Tempest was a good episode, but not great because of the interaction between Lana and Whitney, Clark and Chloe at the dance, etc.. But the cliffhangers are what kicked ass. Nixon finding out, Duke going out into the tornado, Lana being sucked up, and Lex wrestling with whether or not he should let Lionel die. All awesome.

Dannyblue1

05-18-2005, 11:55 PM

Originally posted by ~*Lois & Clark Fan*~
Yeah the Kents and Clark were in the kitchen and it was about 2 am, and Lois comes downstairs and hears them mention nightmare and Lois says "if it makes you feel any better, I have them all the time, I had one last week, really scary, this guy wearing a red cape"

Clark's reaction to that: "Wow that sounds really horrible Lois"

Clark's line made no sense. So, Lois dreamt of a guy in a red cape. I think if Clark had said it with sarcasm, like, "Oh, yeah, that sounds really scary," it would have made some sense. Instead, he says it like a man in a red cape would be truly horrific.

I think they were too busy trying to play up the irony (Clark thinks dreaming of a man in a red cape is horrible, but he will one day be the man in a red cape, ha-ha-ha-ha) they didn't bother with whether it made sense or not. Besides, I think they had enough irony with Lois. After all, the man in the red cape will one day be the "man of her dreams" rather than her nightmares.

superman_115

05-18-2005, 11:59 PM

What does To be Continued mean?

Many feel everything should have been laid out in the open. Know what a cliffhanger means?

Geesh, people on this board want their cake and eat it too.

I like the finale a lot, and yes you are the only one who thought it blew, but you are probably the won person who jump on the bandwagon of this show when you know squat about the Superman mythos.

Great Episode and now dying for the season premiere.

chlarklove

05-19-2005, 12:03 AM

Originally posted by superman_115
What does To be Continued mean?

Many feel everything should have been laid out in the open. Know what a cliffhanger means?

Geesh, people on this board want their cake and eat it too.

I like the finale a lot, and yes you are the only one who thought it blew, but you are probably the won person who jump on the bandwagon of this show when you know squat about the Superman mythos.

Great Episode and now dying for the season premiere.

As you can clearly see, she's not the only one. Maybe you should read the thread before you post.

Oh, and I know the person who started this thread, and she knows A LOT about the Superman mythos.. in fact, she's a hardcore fan. So don't go jumping to conclusions. Thanks.

Somebody Stop Me

05-19-2005, 12:04 AM

Originally posted by stick_figure_girl

What really bugged me was the Isobel/Isabelle arc. It was a major component of this season. There was an entire episode based on it. Why oh why is it resolved in 3 minutes? Why did they drag us through that whole horrible story line only to resolve it in 3 minutes. I mean, I'm glad about the prospect that she may be gone but come on.

Well as many people *****ed about it, I thought everyone would be happy it was over. Geez!

Dannyblue1

05-19-2005, 12:05 AM

Originally posted by superman_115
What does To be Continued mean?

Many feel everything should have been laid out in the open. Know what a cliffhanger means?

Geesh, people on this board want their cake and eat it too.

I like the finale a lot, and yes you are the only one who thought it blew, but you are probably the won person who jump on the bandwagon of this show when you know squat about the Superman mythos.

Number one, finales don't have to be cliffhangers. A lot of shows do wrap things up in their season finale (BtVS), and start anew the next year.

Number two, they could have had a finale but still resolved some of their ongoing storylines for the season. I mean, what possible purpose was served by not having Clark really figure out Chloe knows. By having him still not catch on to all the hints, they make him look less than bright. Plus, some people are actually starting to lose interest in the storyline because it's being dragged out.

MBCorp

05-19-2005, 12:08 AM

Hey, I loved this episode but people really shouldn't be acting rude towards those viewers who didn't like it. Everyone should be able to state their opinions without people jumping on them just because they disagree.

~*Lois & Clark Fan*~

05-19-2005, 12:13 AM

Originally posted by Dannyblue1
Clark's line made no sense. So, Lois dreamt of a guy in a red cape. I think if Clark had said it with sarcasm, like, "Oh, yeah, that sounds really scary," it would have made some sense. Instead, he says it like a man in a red cape would be truly horrific.

I think they were too busy trying to play up the irony (Clark thinks dreaming of a man in a red cape is horrible, but he will one day be the man in a red cape, ha-ha-ha-ha) they didn't bother with whether it made sense or not. Besides, I think they had enough irony with Lois. After all, the man in the red cape will one day be the "man of her dreams" rather than her nightmares.

I thought he said the line like he was humoring her like "yeah sure Lois if you say so"

:)

stick_figure_girl

05-19-2005, 12:14 AM

Originally posted by Somebody Stop Me
Well as many people *****ed about it, I thought everyone would be happy it was over. Geez!

As I already said, I'm glad that she may be gone. But to drag us through all that story just to end it so simply and quickly?

crystal

05-19-2005, 12:18 AM

I too thought this ep. was horrible, on par with most my thoughts on season 4.( This is slightly rantish and bitter but I feel the cristisms are 100% valid and should not be overlooked.)

The ending of Lana's witch storyline was stupid and not explained. Said chosen one last ep. did nothing but kill Jane Seymour's character and the whole witch/tatoo/ stone search ended for her right there. That's not why the witch was was supposedly brought back for. She was searching for the stones herself and she didn't enact revenge against the Teagues because she hadn't done so all season and as far as she knew Jason was alive. No sense!

Clark's storyline was no better. He wasn't doing his search for the stones for others. Jor-El told him the shower would destroy earth and kill him too. It also made no sense as to why human blood suddenly causes a shower, why Clark suddenly develops visions of it, why the stone rang again now, or how any of these things brought about the hows and the whys of this whole plot. I also wasn't impressed with his sudden sense of the stones being his( even good Lana knows for no reason) and his parents appartently raising him for this moment( Are they like Miss Cleo?).

Lex's Lana gushing, his sudden turn to the son his dad wanted, and his general behaviour this ep. although consistent with this season did nothing to endear me to watching his supposed continued journey.

Lois, Chloe, Jason, the MB and the Kents were in most parts a mix of strange and annoying and I've given up caring because I didn't feel they were really well written this ep. or season. Only the dog gets my love and the special effects( save heli scene).

The fortress and new ship are something to make us go wow and forget the crap we just witnessed. How can we trust these cliffhangers to be resolved well when last seasons weren't and this seasons questions for the most part go unanswered?

This made my clean break from viewing Smallville.

Summers

05-19-2005, 12:21 AM

Originally posted by stick_figure_girl
As I already said, I'm glad that she may be gone. But to drag us through all that story just to end it so simply and quickly?

I was hoping they would concluded it justly in Forever instead of five minutes. That's why I didnt like the FoTW in that episode at all. Oh, well.

arachkid

05-19-2005, 12:24 AM

Originally posted by crystal
This made my clean break from viewing Smallville.

I figured some people wouldn't like 'Commencement' - can't please everyone all the time. But to base your not watching Smallville on it?

Wow...

Summers

05-19-2005, 12:27 AM

Its been known to happen in tv shows. Finales can either bring people back, or have them go elsewhere.

~*Lois & Clark Fan*~

05-19-2005, 12:30 AM

Wow to stick around through all of season 4, then to quit because of the finale, that just makes me go HUH??? Cause of most people saying this season was the worst :\

Knoxy

05-19-2005, 12:32 AM

After Ageless I was getting worried but I really enjoyed this episode. It had something for everyone (mytho, clana, chlark, clois, lexana, evil lex, lionel vs. lex etc.) and every character was shown throughout the episode without being forced.

I wish we would have been able to see the FOS though.

chloefan

05-19-2005, 12:32 AM

Originally posted by vyperman7
I have not seen the episode yet. I am waiting to watch it for a few days. But the fact that we don't actually see the FOS, and Clark still doesn't know about Chloe, already has me kind of dissapointed.

The one thing that I wanted before the season ended was for Clark to find about that Chloe knows. Why the hell are they carrying it over until next season?

Also, the cliffhanger should have been Clark walking into the FOS. That would have made a much better cliffhanger.

ITA I am still myself trying to figure out why they still wanna

drag out this does Clark know Chloe knows stuff any longer,

especially since in this episode she saw enough to know that

meteor rocks are his one weakness also. I would have loved

to see him walk into the FOS, as a matter of fact, when he

threw the crystal that looks just like the Superman crest by

the way which i'm sure we all noticed, I thought it was gonna

end with it connecting to some massive door and FOS opening.

crystal

05-19-2005, 12:34 AM

I've kinda been going back and forth all season( like I said season long disappointment). I'm a bad one for saying I'm quitting and breaking away then getting sucked back in to TV.

Yet this finale just didn't give me the closure which could have made me understand this season more or give me hope that I'll see the things I love about Smallville and orginally watched for return or even imo a decent story( ie. closure to this story and the larger one in the future). So I'm quitting and now is a good time because I'll have summer to let it go and I can say I saw the season on a whole so there wasn't a chance I missed a great ending that did bring back the spark for me.

~*Lois & Clark Fan*~

05-19-2005, 12:37 AM

Originally posted by Knoxy
After Ageless I was getting worried but I really enjoyed this episode. It had something for everyone (mytho, clana, chlark, clois, lexana, evil lex, lionel vs. lex etc.) and every character was shown throughout the episode without being forced.

I wish we would have been able to see the FOS though.

Yep I agree, everyone IMO got ample screentime, it all flowed together very well. Kristin actually almost impressed me with her acting in this episode, she really put her heart and soul into it, and Lana was tolerable in this episode ;)

Polomontana

05-19-2005, 12:44 AM

This finale wasn't that good. I was watching the finale like please tie up some loose ends and move on. A finale doesn't have to end like a Dynasty Episode. You can tie up things and add new things to the story if you want to leave a cliffhanger. They tied up nothing from this season. The writers are horrible.

Why did Lana give Clark the stone and Isabelle didn't interfere?

The Chloe knowing about Clark is getting old, that would have been something they could have tied up in this finale.

In the last episode they talked about Lana being the chosen one, but they didn't expand on that premise in this episode. Why would she fight so hard in Japan to stop Clark from getting the stone and then just hand it to him.

The dialogue is getting stale. When Clark talks to Lex or Lana the conversation doesn't flow like it does with Clark and his parents or between Clark and Lois. What happened?

Season finale's usually tie up questions of the closing season and they raise new questions. This was 90 minutes of mish mash. They could have tied up some stories from this season and then added new stories with the meteor shower.

Super Snipes

05-19-2005, 12:47 AM

You are the only one, cause that finale ROCKED!!!

arachkid

05-19-2005, 12:51 AM

Originally posted by Polomontana
Why did Lana give Clark the stone and Isabelle didn't interfere?

The Chloe knowing about Clark is getting old, that would have been something they could have tied up in this finale.

In the last episode they talked about Lana being the chosen one, but they didn't expand on that premise in this episode. Why would she fight so hard in Japan to stop Clark from getting the stone and then just hand it to him.

Isabelle = gone. Hence the disappearing tattoo. She vowed to kill Gertrude's ancestors and killed GT. Lana may have heard about Jason's "death" from either the Smallville Ledger <website last week>, Lex or Lionel, and if Isabelle absorbs all information, just lying dormant, that could explain that. Lana's the only person left in the body, so giving Clark the stone is no problem.

Chloe now knows more about Clark - I'm sure she knows the caves are tied to him, and she knew the worms from the caves were of alien nature, I think... <shrugs and loads up Rush>...

Lana being the chosen one was just Lionel spewing forth rubbish to save, I think... Clark from the added attention. When Jason was mentioning Clark to Lex at the end of Forever, Lionel chose a particular moment to pop a cap in him.

Yuui

05-19-2005, 12:53 AM

I can understand your opinion, as I too had high expectations for this episode. I wasn't disappointed but the ending irked me a bit.

:-/

zanos

05-19-2005, 12:54 AM

The finale was lame. So the climar to this years season arc is Clark gets his stones and gets transported to the artic so he could form the FOS? Whoopee. People on here are so easily pleased. It's no wonder this show has had such high ratings for so long.

Super Snipes

05-19-2005, 12:59 AM

Originally posted by Yuui
I can understand your opinion, as I too had high expectations for this episode. I wasn't disappointed but the ending irked me a bit.

:-/

Its a classic Smallville ending, no questions answers more asked. I still loved it, now I want the DVD set!

randy23

05-19-2005, 01:14 AM

Why would the writers make Isobelle so power hungry for her just to want to get revenge on the Teagues? They can't possibly write Isobelle in anymore cause all three stones are united to show Clark the way to the Fortress of Solitude.

MBCorp

05-19-2005, 01:16 AM

I think we're all just going to have to admit that tptb have got fed up with the witch storyline and so ended it as quickly as possible. We'll probably never get any answers about any of our questions concerning the witch plot.

Sydafex7

05-19-2005, 01:50 AM

Originally posted by chlarklove
Hey no need for the harsh words. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

I think maybe the reason she feels the way she does, is cause this finale didn't really flow that well with the rest of the season. The season in and of itself really didn't flow. It's like after the first hiatus, they came back writing a totally different show.

I mean, just like that, the other 2 stones basically fell into Clark's lap. I would've liked to see him ACTIVELY searching for them. And his comment about them not meant for him... the hell? Think Clark. Why do you think they ring and only you can hear it?

I, too, am extremely disappointed. I guess I have expectations that I shouldn't have.

The special effects were great, most definitely. Lex showing more of his evil side was awesome. And Chloe refusing to tell Lex anything and seeing Clark enter the FoS (booyah I was right :p )

I think that Clark obviouslty knew the stones were from him, but he still doesnt want to accept his destiny. He stil has A LOT of growing up to do in order to accept his destiny.

I mean all season log clark has been denying his destiny, by playing football, trying to get with lana, etc. He has had more fun this year because he is trying to get away from Jor-el, he was trying to live a normal life.

Now his comment about "these stones have nothint to do with me" Yeah it sounds pretty dumb of him to say, because well its pretty damn obvious. But, I see him saying that because HES IN DENIAL. This is HUGE the entire world's fate rests on his shoulders. Id be in denial too!!

I thought this episode flowed great with the season. Lasts years was far worse than this one. (A) it had a FOTW which was totally unnecessary. (B) all of the cliff hangers were easily dismissed. I mean we KNOW lex lives even tho he got poisoned. We KNOW Clark is going to be okay. We knew they wouldnt get rid of Pete AND kill of 2 main characters (mr kent and Chloe). I mean nothing was really a cliff hanger. Also, it all happened in the last 5 minuts. there was NO pacing at all. Okay so Clark finds Lex's secret room. whatever.

This episode's teaser was amazing!! Seeing Lana covered in blood and shaking and turning around to see Lex was just brilliant and that Scene set the rest of the show in motion.

The only complaint I have is that stupid a.s.s timer. It totally was not clever and was just cliched. (taken from 24 and every other (major event movie ala independence day). It actually took me out of the show and if ANYTHING messed up the pacing of the show it was that. I wanted to be totally surprised when the first meteor's hit, instead of knowing exactly when they were coming. It took away from the thrill and excitement and it just added in predictability.

The timer is my main sole complaint. It blew and I hated it.

Other than that. awesome finalie. I still think I like season 2's the best because it was 2 episodes and had a lot of cool and neat revelation. Id rather have 2 awesome back to back episodes for the finalie than one good one. Much better than a lame so called "90 minute event" take out commercials and 10 minutes for batman (which was an offer trailer however) and your back down to an hour! which, is really 20 minutes longer than a norma; "hour"episode which is really 40-42 minutes. long

roman1967

05-19-2005, 01:59 AM

Originally posted by SnarkMasterJ
Seriously...it was sloppily handled and not very smooth...there was no continuity with any of the other episodes in the first part of the season (I mean, for the love of all that's holy, Clark acted like he didn't know the stones were meant for him -- where did THAT come from???)...there was far too much Lana and not enough Chloe (but that's subjective I guess)...

I'm not pleased at all. They'll have to do a complete 180 for me to tune in for S5.

"Blew" is a bit strong, but I will say that the episode was not great. From a crap 4th Season, we were dealt a heaping plate of mediocrity for the Season Finale.

Sydafex7

05-19-2005, 02:03 AM

Originally posted by Polomontana
This finale wasn't that good. I was watching the finale like please tie up some loose ends and move on. A finale doesn't have to end like a Dynasty Episode. You can tie up things and add new things to the story if you want to leave a cliffhanger. They tied up nothing from this season. The writers are horrible.

Why did Lana give Clark the stone and Isabelle didn't interfere?

The Chloe knowing about Clark is getting old, that would have been something they could have tied up in this finale.

In the last episode they talked about Lana being the chosen one, but they didn't expand on that premise in this episode. Why would she fight so hard in Japan to stop Clark from getting the stone and then just hand it to him.

The dialogue is getting stale. When Clark talks to Lex or Lana the conversation doesn't flow like it does with Clark and his parents or between Clark and Lois. What happened?

Season finale's usually tie up questions of the closing season and they raise new questions. This was 90 minutes of mish mash. They could have tied up some stories from this season and then added new stories with the meteor shower.

For the last time... Lionel said that Lana is the chosen one not because he really thinks she is, but because he was trying to pursuade genevieve to go after lana to get her off his back. She already said "You wouldnt be that stupid to give the stone to Lana" and he was just trying to pursuade her more by saying "oh we all know shes the chosen one (meaning, the one meant for the stones, I thought that was self explainatory).

I witch storyine has been resolved ever since we found out that Isobel seeks revenge on Jasons ancestor Gertrude. Thats all we needed to know to explain the entire witch storyline. It makes sense to me. Lana gets possessed by a witch looking for the stones and she acts on Revenge. She gets her revenge finally on the people who had her burnt at the stake and thats that, her threat is gone. seems simple to me.

Lana didnt fight in China to keep Clark from the stone, Isobel fought him, not Lana.

Umm, they tied up everything if you ask me. The witch storyline is resolved. Also, we finally learn what the stones are for. Okay, one can argue that we dont know, but we ALL KNOW it leads to the FoS. Weve all seen or at least know about the scene in the first Superman Movie when he tosses the stone.

That leaves really only one main cliffhanger and thats the ship that landed with the meteor shower.

We know the kents are okay, they arent going to kill bopth of his parents, probably not even the dad. There was no cliffhanger involving Chloe or Lex, so no worries there.

All in all, I think a LOT of questions were asked and only 2 big ones stay in my mine, (1) the ship and what is it and (2) is Lionel okay and whats up with his eyes?

RedPhoenix23

05-19-2005, 02:07 AM

This may be a stretch, but what if Lana is the "chosen one" to trigger the meteors and bring whoever that was in the ship to Earth?

Sydafex7

05-19-2005, 02:11 AM

Originally posted by roman1967
"Blew" is a bit strong, but I will say that the episode was not great. From a crap 4th Season, we were dealt a heaping plate of mediocrity for the Season Finale.

I dont get why people are saying this.

I thought it was 10 times better than the last one we had where NOTHING tied in at all except for Mr Kents deal with Jorel. I mean everything was crammed into a 5 minute montage, a montage that left us WITH NO Cliff hangers.
(A) we know Lex doesnt die
(B) we know Chloe and Mr kent dont dine because they woulnt get rid of Three main characters within 2 episodes
(C) we know Lana ends up back in Smallville because shes a main asset of the show and we cant have her isolated in Paris
(D) We know CLark is fine, hes superman..

All in all, I thought this episode was paced mich better and I thought it tied in great with the season. I mean the Stones have been what has tied everything together. That was thr main seasonal arch. Actually, this is the first time we have ahd a main seasonal arch

Season 1 didnt have one.The twisters came from nowhere.
Season 2 didnt have one either. Cllark having to leave was never mentioned in other episodes, it was just dropped on our plate.
Season 3 already explained that, the onyl seasonal arch was Jonathans deal with Jorel, which was made in the first episode and then brought up a little bit in 2 other episodes before it was dealt with in the Covenent.

Im sorry, but I just dontsee how some people werent entertained by this. I was definitely entertained. My dad who has given up on Smallville (he doesnt like all the dumb rehashed FOTW and teen soapy stuff, he just likes Clark embracing his Superman destiny)
Actually watched this episode and thought it was great. He said "well this show redeemed itself"

I agree

Clarksgoddess

05-19-2005, 05:14 AM

Originally posted by Polomontana

Why did Lana give Clark the stone and Isabelle didn't interfere?

In the first 2 minutes of the episode Isobel was no more. She gave him the stone after that.

BuZzArD 8012

05-19-2005, 05:42 AM

Originally posted by SnarkMasterJ
Seriously...it was sloppily handled and not very smooth...there was no continuity with any of the other episodes in the first part of the season (I mean, for the love of all that's holy, Clark acted like he didn't know the stones were meant for him -- where did THAT come from???)...there was far too much Lana and not enough Chloe (but that's subjective I guess)...

I'm not pleased at all. They'll have to do a complete 180 for me to tune in for S5.

I agree with you about Clark not knowing the stones were for him.

4EverSmallville

05-19-2005, 05:46 AM

I agree that Clark not knowing the stones were for him was odd, but overall the finale was great IMO.

I was a little disappointed that we didn't see much Chloe, but I didn't really expect to. The episode was mostly about the stones and destiny, Chloe really didn't fit anyhow.

becomingagod

05-19-2005, 05:48 AM

Look if all you can do is find problems with the show .......

STOP

WATCHING

IT

THEN!!!

I am sick and tired of people just ripping the show apart, look, I know not every episode is great, or even good, but I think this finale was excellent.

Why don't you just get "LOST"

RedPhoenix23

05-19-2005, 05:49 AM

ugh, this thread is still alive? Just ignore...its the best revenge!

Genevieve

05-19-2005, 05:52 AM

Originally posted by arachkid
She vowed to kill Gertrude's ancestors and killed GT. .

GT would be a descendant, not an ancestor.. and Jason was still alive. Wouldn't a witch like Isobel perhaps know that? Or in the least, she'd not disappear yet, because her work was not done, since a descendant is still alive somewhere? I'm still having trouble with the whole witch story line. I just don't get it. And I agree that it could have been resolved much better.

As a stand alone episode, I thought it was great. As a season finale, it was lacking.

Dannyblue1

05-19-2005, 06:44 AM

Originally posted by Genevieve
As a stand alone episode, I thought it was great. As a season finale, it was lacking.

Exactly. As an episode, I thought it was decent. But as a finale, not so much. Which is pretty much how I felt last year.

happasaiyan

05-19-2005, 06:58 AM

Originally posted by SnarkMasterJ
Am I the only one that thought the finale BLEW?
yes. next.

Dannyblue1

05-19-2005, 07:02 AM

Originally posted by happasaiyan
yes. next.

"Blew" is a pretty strong word, yes, but not everyone loved the finale.

Bwookie

05-19-2005, 07:38 AM

I think if you knew the spoilers the highlights didn't completely absolve all the lows. At least that happened to me.

Lot of great cliffhangers though for a possible great S5.

The only really big disappointment I had was the cheesy way they resolved the Isobel storyline.

It was expected but man they could've made it more dramatic.

jimmyolsenblues

05-19-2005, 07:45 AM

Yes , you are the only one who think the episode "Blew", if I was the Soup Nazi from Seinfeld , I would revoke your TV.

Naomi

05-19-2005, 07:50 AM

Originally posted by Sydafex7
Season 1 didnt have one.The twisters came from nowhere.
Season 2 didnt have one either. Cllark having to leave was never mentioned in other episodes, it was just dropped on our plate.
Season 3 already explained that, the onyl seasonal arch was Jonathans deal with Jorel, which was made in the first episode and then brought up a little bit in 2 other episodes before it was dealt with in the Covenent.

That wasn't the only seasonal arc. Season 3 had the arc of Lionel needing Clark's blood, which was introduced in Phoenix, and tied in to the Adam plot. Plus Phoenix hinted at Lionel having killed his parents, and most of season 3 was spend with him trying to avoid justice for that.

And season 2 had Clark finding out more about krypton and his destiny from Jor-El. The ship was a factor throughout the year (being found by Pete, making Martha pregnant, healing Clark, ending with Clark blowing it up etc).

Originally posted by mraig
Do we get any sort of closure on the whole "is Lionel good/is he bad" storyline? Was he pretending to be good? No, I guess he really was good, but Lex yelled at him, so now he's bad again.

:lol:

Dannyblue1

05-19-2005, 07:57 AM

Originally posted by becomingagod
Look if all you can do is find problems with the show .......

STOP

WATCHING

IT

THEN!!!

Well, millions of people have done just that.

I am sick and tired of people just ripping the show apart, look, I know not every episode is great, or even good, but I think this finale was excellent.

Why don't you just get "LOST"

I'm sick and tired of people giving other posters a hard time for having the nerve to give their opinion. I mean, sharing what they think and feel at a public forum? How dare they!

Surely you knew some of the opinions this thread might contain when you clicked on it. If you have that much problem with such opinions, you shouldn't read them. I mean, why invite such unnecessary stress?

You have the right to think the finale was excellent. I have the right to think it wasn't. (It was a good episode, but not a great finale in my opinion.) And we both have the right to say so here.

Domilicious

05-19-2005, 08:23 AM

Originally posted by Dannyblue1

I'm sick and tired of people giving other posters a hard time for having the nerve to give their opinion. I mean, sharing what they think and feel at a public forum? How dare they!

[/B]

That's just it. As someone very disappointed by yesterday's finale, I'm ashamed to admit that I don't have the courage to give my opinion.

Praxis

05-19-2005, 08:38 AM

Yup, just you.

jennlf

05-19-2005, 08:42 AM

Nope, you are not the only one. They spent a lot of money and time on special effects but not really story!

Nope, you are not the only one. They spent a lot of money and time on special effects but not really story!

Bwookie

05-19-2005, 08:46 AM

Originally posted by Domilicious
That's just it. As someone very disappointed by yesterday's finale, I'm ashamed to admit that I don't have the courage to give my opinion.

lol I think you just did. I wouldn't be afraid. Be afraid if you say you don't like Buffy though. Be very afraid.

lynelle

05-19-2005, 08:47 AM

Originally posted by Domilicious
That's just it. As someone very disappointed by yesterday's finale, I'm ashamed to admit that I don't have the courage to give my opinion.
Aww dammit, you sghouldn't be like that. Stating your opinions are what forums are for, even if they differ. I may disagree with other posters but I'm not going to give them a hard time for daring to differ.

And I also wish people would stop acting like you are comitting a mortal sin if you don't share the same opinion. There's such a thing as free speech, it's what the western world is supposedly founded on.

tallans

05-19-2005, 08:53 AM

I am disappointed. All season we waited and waited for something to happen and what did we get.

Jason = momma's boy.
Isobel = only finale contribution was to kill GT then disappear.
GT = WTF- Lifetime of planning just to get stabbed in 2 minutes by a 300 year old witch.

S4- A lot of plot treads with no story behind them, major lack of continuity (for example last day of school then Clark with telescope at night with father, then back scene at school with lana and CHloe at last day of school-whoa major lack of continuity).

Where did level 31 go?
Why did jason not know that his relationship(car scene with mom) was a setup from the start if he was working with his mom?
On and on and on.

Not only did this finale suck, so did the whole season. AL/miles should retire.

Dannyblue1

05-19-2005, 09:07 AM

Originally posted by lynelle
Aww dammit, you sghouldn't be like that. Stating your opinions are what forums are for, even if they differ. I may disagree with other posters but I'm not going to give them a hard time for daring to differ.

I've seen this kind of thing happen at other message boards. A group of posters, who have the same opinion, will start giving those who have different opinions a hard time. Then, this sort of pack mentality kicks in. Anyone who dares to express a different opinion is attacked en masse. Pretty soon, not only do people become almost afraid to say anything that doesn't match the opinion of the board, those people pretty much stop going to those boards.

I avoid such boards like the plague. There seems no real point to them. They are not about true discussion, or opinion, or thought. They're about everyone pretty much repeating the same "acceptable" things over and over again.

Luckily, I don't think Kryptonsite could ever be that way. At those boards, the admins completely agree with the group opinion, and let the "only our opinion is the right opinion" attitude take over. The Kryptonsite admins encourage all different opinions. Which is why I like coming here.

Still, when people have berated others for having differing opinions enough for some people to become reluctant to post their honest thoughts on this board, that's disturbing.

I must admit, I'm sometimes reluctant to say I thought something everyone else seemed to love wasn't so hot. But I usually get over it pretty fast. :D

Daphne

05-19-2005, 09:09 AM

I think you might be the only one. Just kidding. I loved it. I wished we had seen more, but then that's what a finale does. Makes you want to see more next season.

Man Of Steely Dan

05-19-2005, 09:53 AM

Originally posted by vyperman7
I have not seen the episode yet. I am waiting to watch it for a few days. But the fact that we don't actually see the FOS, and Clark still doesn't know about Chloe, already has me kind of dissapointed.

The one thing that I wanted before the season ended was for Clark to find about that Chloe knows. Why the hell are they carrying it over until next season?

Also, the cliffhanger should have been Clark walking into the FOS. That would have made a much better cliffhanger.

Both reasons why F-bombs were dropping all over the place when "...to be continued" popped up.

Also, the stupidity of Clark is just overwhelming. I mean, why not ask Lana if she knows where the other stone is? Everything is supposedly about to be destroyed and all he can do is stand there and have some overly dramatic WB moment. We're in a hurry here Clark, snap out of it!

If it wasn't for the fact that it was Superman, I'd really hate this show. :p

E: And if this was Clark's "Graduation", the least they could've shown us was where he's REALLY going to college.

This finale tied up absolutely ZERO loose ends, except what would happen if all three of the stones were united...in which we never REALLY got to see. So they formed a crystal that took Clark to the Arctic, big whoop.

ShakyJake

05-19-2005, 09:58 AM

I didn't read the entire thread because there are WAY too many fan boy responses (god I do hate that expression but it's entirely applicable here).

The episode itself was better than most this season WHICH ISN'T SAYING MUCH.

Unless "the powers that be" somehow masterfully ties everything together in season 5, you people have to admit that the current story arc makes no damn sense. It's all over the place with continuity issues, plot holes, etc. etc.

I love supes, but come on people open your eyes. There is some seriously bad writing going on and the cliff hanger is zero exception.

skttrbrain

05-19-2005, 10:09 AM

The episode was entertaining, nothing phenomenal. I really thought the ending was pretty lame. Aside from the second ship, I wasn't really left wanting... I was more annoyed than anxious after it ended.

Worst cliffhanger ever.

vision_tim

05-19-2005, 11:51 AM

I agree, I just kept thinking. "OK, they'll get to this after the next commercial break." Which, of course, they never did.

The episode was all over the place and just didn't jell. I was left underwhelmed and don't understand how the writers can make Superman so super-dumb.

I mean come on with the passing out, sleeping, knocked-out, memory loss crap.

So, Clark doesn't know Chloe pulled his ass away from the bad green stuff? Talk about beating something to death. Hey Clark, she knows you idiot!

Also, in the previews for this turkey, didn't they have Clark screaming in the Artic, "I can't do this by myself" or something like that. Nice how they cut that part out.

Arrggg, I could go on but other people have summed it up well enough for me already.

This episode sucked, not only as a finale, but as a stand alone episode.

I agree, I just kept thinking. "OK, they'll get to this after the next commercial break." Which, of course, they never did.

The episode was all over the place and just didn't jell. I was left underwhelmed and don't understand how the writers can make Superman so super-dumb.

I mean come on with the passing out, sleeping, knocked-out, memory loss crap.

So, Clark doesn't know Chloe pulled his ass away from the bad green stuff? Talk about beating something to death. Hey Clark, she knows you idiot!

Also, in the previews for this turkey, didn't they have Clark screaming in the Artic, "I can't do this by myself" or something like that. Nice how they cut that part out.

Arrggg, I could go on but other people have summed it up well enough for me already.

This episode sucked, not only as a finale, but as a stand alone episode.

Lids123

05-19-2005, 12:15 PM

I didn't really loooove the finale either, but I read the spoilers so I knew not to get too excited. Also, I watched it after Lost and Lost made me tear up twice plus that episode scared me to death and it wasn't even the finale!!!

I'm going to watch this episode again after I get back from vacation. I might like it better when I go in with lower expectations.

Polomontana

05-19-2005, 12:25 PM

This has to be the bumbest storyline. If Isobelle just came back to kill the Teagues, why didn't she just kill Jason? All the time Lana spent with Jason. Why did Isobelle go after the stones at all if her only goal was to kill the Teagues? Why all the stuff in China? Why did she bring back her friends? She had alot of opportunities to kill the Teagues. This makes no sense.

mraig

05-19-2005, 12:58 PM

Originally posted by becomingagod
Look if all you can do is find problems with the show .......

STOP

WATCHING

IT

THEN!!!

I am sick and tired of people just ripping the show apart, look, I know not every episode is great, or even good, but I think this finale was excellent.

Why don't you just get "LOST"

I think the reason that people (like me) have been complaining so much about Season 4 and the finale in particular is not that we hate Smallville or we only watch it to pick it apart, but because we think it is a show that has in the past been really great, and that has the potential to be really great again, but that has been severely lacking for the past year.

If I thought Smallville had been crap from the beginning, I wouldn't bother to keep watching it to find flaws with it. But from about midway through Season 1 until the end of Season 3, I think Smallville was excellent, and the drop in quality for most of Season 4 has been so staggering that I can't help but ask: where's that show I used to love?

The difference, I think, is this: the show used to be about the characters. Now it's about the events. Character based drama is interesting. Seeing the relationships between the characters progress in interesting ways is what a good serial drama is all about.

Seeing Lex and Lionel's relationship evolve, seeing Clark and Chloe's, Clark and Lana's, Clark and Lex's, etc - this kind of writing actually pays off in the end, because when, say, Clark finds out that everything he thought he knew about his friendship with Lex is a lie because Lex has been keeping a creepy 'Clark room', or that Lionel sold out his son to cover his own butt by having him committed to a mental institution, it means something.

But in Season 4, the writing has been about stuff happening instead of about the characters. The ridiculous plot about the stones jumping from character to character is not interesting by itself. The fact that sometimes Lana turns into a witch because of the tattoo on her back is not interesting by itself (particularly since all it ever leads to is campy plots and hammy overacting).

But what about Lionel's creepy obsession with pulling Chloe's strings? Completely forgotten. Now all Lionel does is sit in the mansion and say something cryptic about the stones for about 5 minutes each episode, and all Chloe does is appear once or twice an episode to make an ironic reference to the fact that she knows Clark's secret, and then Clark says, "What do you mean?" and Chloe says, "Oh, nothing."

The one interesting storyline Lionel had (the 'does he remember about Clark/did he really turn over a new leaf' plot) was sort of dropped halfway through the season, and never satisfactorily dealt with. He still insists he didn't kill his parents, and he's living under the same roof with his son who had him put in prison on that charge, and whom he presumably tried to kill. That should be a powder keg waiting to explode, right? No, it's all about the stooooooones!

Sorry to go off on a rant, but I don't think that the fact that I'm not bowled over by shoddy storytelling makes me any less of a true Smallville fan. This show dropped the ball bigtime this year, and if they want to be anything more than an hour of flashy special effects and PG-13 titilation, they need to pick it up again.

creolemommie

05-19-2005, 01:10 PM

It's intersting. There are usually two schools of thought with the finales, either you were very excited or extremely disappointed. I think it flowed fine, I like how the tattoo was removed from Lana once Isobel accomplished her mission (that went right back to the first episode that was a nice tie up). Not sure why Clark didn't know the stones were for him... I think because it flipped back and forth and they tried to get so much in it seemed rushed. My only thought was about Jason... how do you get shot in the shoulder, fall of a cliff, survive and go to someone's house to pull a gun on them... shouldn't he be weak from the loss of blood? :)

TML

05-19-2005, 01:25 PM

I must say that I can't agree with the title of this thread.
I think it was a fantastic episode. It REALLY had a SUPERMAN feeling to it. Big things are going to happen in season 5... it is hard to even begin to fathom as to what we will see in the season premiere.

MBCorp

05-19-2005, 01:33 PM

Now that the afterglow has faded somewhat, there are a few things that bother me about the finale. Too many unanswered questions, ignored plotlines, and the fact that Lex has been turned into a creepy Lana stalker doesn't please me either, although I guess I can fanwank it into believing that he was only using her for the stones.

Koda

05-19-2005, 01:43 PM

I think the season finale was excellent. I don't nitpick things to death, it's just not my way, and nothing was glaringly out of place after watching last nights episode.

I judged last night's episode quite simply: Was I glued to my chair for 80 minutes? Absolutely. Did it entertain me? Definitely. Did it close chapters? Yes. Gone are the Teagues, the witches, and the search for the crystals. Did it leave new questions hanging? Yep.

As for Clark and Chloe and his secret, I'm glad it didn't come out yet. For heavens sake, she only found out about him about 7 episodes back. Why would you want it all wrapped up in the season finale? Where's the fun in that? Doesn't anyone like tension and drama anymore? If nothing else, the writers next year might build the "reveal" episode around the fact that Chloe might also find out that Clark's an alien. That would be a cool episode. How does he talk his way out of that one? Who knows? But I'll be watching.

As to the people who feel that they can't express their opinions, one way or the other, that's not true. All I can say as a Smallville fan is that it really bothers me to come to a site that I love to discuss a show only to hear people BASH the show. I'm not talking about expressing an opinion. Even though I didn't agree with some of the posts on this thread as to why you didn't enjoy the episode, some of you explained very nicely and very clearly what you felt was lacking. What bothers me as a Smallville fan is the "This Show Sucks" or "Smallville is a horrible show" or when people say some pretty awful things about the characters or actors. To me that's people just being nasty -- it's NOT giving your opinion, it's trolling.

These types of threads popped up a lot this season, and as fan that loves this show and all it's flaws, it's depressing. When you start a thread that asks "does anyone else think the season finale blew," you are specifically asking for negative posts. Frankly, this question and/or anyone's opinion could easily have been posted and added to the episode "reviews" thread. Why start a separate thread? Unless you want to either invite nothing but negative posts about the show or to instigate a reaction with the fans who loved the episode. The fact that someone wanted to read only the negative things about the episode speaks volumes to me.

Even with episodes this season that I really disliked (Bound, Lucy, Ageless), I could still pick out moments that I enjoyed. I don't think anyone should have a problem with someone who posts that they didn't enjoy the episode, and then they explain why they didn't like it . . . I like to hear different sides to the episodes and then debate them. It's all good.
What's sad is that at times the Kryptonsite forum has become a place for nothing but negative posters, one thread after the other (sometimes by the same posters). That's just sad (and annoying).

Having said all that and having my little mini rant, I did not think Season Four was horrible. It was inconsistent and choppy at times, but there were too many good episodes for me to write off the season, including the finale.

Can't wait for Season Four DVD and Season Five premiere.

Dannyblue1

05-19-2005, 01:54 PM

Polomontana

05-19-2005, 02:04 PM

This is why season 4 ratings have been in the dumps. People accept these weak stories and blame the slump on everything else. The only reason Lost took viewers from Smallville is because the writing was better. My brother is a great example. He's the one that introduced me to Smallville, but this season has has been more interested in Lost. He agrees with alot of the messages on this board and so do I. The writers have been all over the place this season and the rating back this up.

I thought last episode was one of the best episodes of the year. That episode and the episodes with Alicia were great. I actually think Alicia should have been made a regular cast member. The tension between her and Clark was volatile and it made for good drama. Love that crosses the line to obsession is interesting. The back and forth between her and Clark was very good and they had good chemistry.

Bearcat

05-19-2005, 02:09 PM

I really liked the season finale. It could have better, but I understand why they have to hold some things back, in order to make people tune in next year. I do agree with vyperman that the last scene should have been of clark entering the FOS. That would have been enough of a cliffhanger, because the real mystery is what Clark will find inside, not what it looks like (I'll eat my words if the crystal doesn't actually become the FOS, but this is very very unlikely). So there wouldn't really have been a problem ending the show with him going in.

I think most of the complaints about this season come from frustration because the show felt so uneven at times. My biggest problem was that (imo) they really wasted the potential for a great season, what with Lois coming in and the quest for the stones. I thought Lois/Erica was a great character who could have been utilized more effectively throughout the season. And the stones story arc was problematic because it was abbreviated/ignored at the beginning of the season, then felt kind of rushed at the end. I suspect this was for two reasons:
1) the mistaken belief that people didn't like the show in season three because it was "too dark" (one of the producers said this in some article). This is the reason they went back to the single shot storylines with FOTW, instead of following a tighter story arc which dealt more with Clark's search for the stones. and
2) the "necessity" of having a major story line for lana. Thus, the witch plot etc. This was a mistake, not because of Lana (I'm not trying to lana bash here), but because of how the story was implemented. Instead of isobelle/witch lana I think they should have just made the Jason character a behind the scenes adversery of clark/lex througout the season. This would have given them an opponent to fight against while they searched for the stones. If they did that then lana could be involved in the storylines, but there wouldn't have been that stupid witch subplot.

Stil even so I enjoyed most of season four, and I bet that with a little effort the show can get back to where it was the first three seasons. Even if it doesn't I'll watch it till the bitter end (unless they kill chloe!)

wallyK

05-19-2005, 02:19 PM

Originally posted by crystal
I've kinda been going back and forth all season( like I said season long disappointment). I'm a bad one for saying I'm quitting and breaking away then getting sucked back in to TV.

Yet this finale just didn't give me the closure which could have made me understand this season more or give me hope that I'll see the things I love about Smallville and orginally watched for return or even imo a decent story( ie. closure to this story and the larger one in the future). So I'm quitting and now is a good time because I'll have summer to let it go and I can say I saw the season on a whole so there wasn't a chance I missed a great ending that did bring back the spark for me.

I sort of feel the same way. A lot has to do with the type of show and the style of the writers. Smallville certainly does not have the same feel as "Star Trek Generations", which I enjoyed immensely. When "Buffy The Vampire Slayer" was on, I had the same feeling that I do now with Smallville. The writers said that they were writing character stories, which seemed to mean that the plots often seemed thrown together haphazardly.

Smallville has so much promise, and I wish the writers would approach things differently. But hey, it's their show. And in the end, I can either watch it or do something else. We'll see how I feel in the fall, although I was rather let down with the finale.

Dannyblue1

05-19-2005, 02:40 PM

Originally posted by wallyK
When "Buffy The Vampire Slayer" was on, I had the same feeling that I do now with Smallville. The writers said that they were writing character stories, which seemed to mean that the plots often seemed thrown together haphazardly.

I just gotta jump in and say the storylines on BtVS were tight and coherant. They flowed, developed in believable ways, had solid resolutions, and didn't leave you feeling like you still didn't understand most of what went on. Even the Initiative plot, which I didn't love, made sense, and gave us some kind of closure.

lakevillethor

05-19-2005, 02:59 PM

Originally posted by mraig
I was very underwhelmed. Season 4 has been pretty much a mess in my opinion, and I thought this was a typical Season 4 episode - lots of things happened, but they didn't flow together well.

The whole stones story was ridiculous. After a whole season of pointless intrigue about who had what stone, Clark gets one of them handed to him, and the other one calls out to him, and he goes and gets it. That's some quest. "Clark, this is the moment we've raised you for." Huh? You spent the past 18 years raising him so he could get some stones?

The Luthor storyline was pretty underwhelming to. Do we get any sort of closure on the whole "is Lionel good/is he bad" storyline? Was he pretending to be good? No, I guess he really was good, but Lex yelled at him, so now he's bad again. Why exactly did Genevive Teague free him from prison again? Why are they all so obsessed with these stones? What does Countess Isabelle Thoreaux have to do with all of this? Does Lex even still work at Luthorcorp, or does he just sit in his office and think about the stones all day?

And why was Clark so slow getting those stones together? Jor El told him he couldn't stop the meteor shower from coming no matter what. Maybe instead of taking the stones and standing in the cave chamber for ten minutes before he puts the stone in the slot, he should go out and help people evacuate? Save his parents from Jason? Save Chloe, who saved his life, from Lex? Save Lana? No, let's have our hero stand in a cave for ten minutes, save one little boy, lie on the floor for ten minutes, stand in the cave for another ten minutes, then go to the North Pole. Exciting! Let's have Jason wave a gun at the Kents for the entire episode with absolutely no purpose at all. What point exactly did that serve to the story? Why did they wait until the meteors started falling to evacuate Lana? What's in that room with Mxyzptlk?

Oh, wait. A new ship came down. Yay! What a great episode! I won't be disappointed next season with they mention it in episode one, then put it off for another 20 episodes while Clark fights jocks with Kryptonite asthma inhalers at Smallville Community College, and then bring up the ship again in the Season 5 finale.

One of the finest posts I have seen --- my thoughts exactly. There is no question that the ep was severely lacking. However, I am excited about next season as it would be cool to see CK fight anything but meteor freaks; a new type of villan is really really overdue.

They just tried to tie up too many loose ends without tying up any. The secret with Chloe was really tragic. WTF were they thinking not having him at least know? That plot line in and of itself would have made the episode so much better. The other annoying thing is that there was really no segue from any other episodes to this one. The good thing about the previous seasons is that it has been a gradual transition, episode to episode. These most recent ones have been like throwing darts at a dart board --- honestly, just TERRIBLE. IS lex bad or good? What is Lana's role? Now that she no longer has to kill anyone for revenge of her family, is her role done? Why the hell dont they make it clear that CK knows about Chloe? An argument can be made that he does know --- as he asks her questions all the time, but WTF. What about Jonathon kent dying? He dies in the first movie in teh beginning --- why hasn't this happened yet? WTF happened in the kent household after the meteor hit?

So many questions now and I guess that is part of any cliffhanger. However, they now have so many fng loose ends to tie up I cannot keep the them straight. If you sit down and think about it, there are so many things left unanswered and they just KEEP adding more --- its time to tie up the loose ends. They should call it Scatterville...

clarks other weakness

05-19-2005, 03:11 PM

Originally posted by mraig
I was very underwhelmed. Season 4 has been pretty much a mess in my opinion, and I thought this was a typical Season 4 episode - lots of things happened, but they didn't flow together well.

The whole stones story was ridiculous. After a whole season of pointless intrigue about who had what stone, Clark gets one of them handed to him, and the other one calls out to him, and he goes and gets it. That's some quest. "Clark, this is the moment we've raised you for." Huh? You spent the past 18 years raising him so he could get some stones?

The Luthor storyline was pretty underwhelming to. Do we get any sort of closure on the whole "is Lionel good/is he bad" storyline? Was he pretending to be good? No, I guess he really was good, but Lex yelled at him, so now he's bad again. Why exactly did Genevive Teague free him from prison again? Why are they all so obsessed with these stones? What does Countess Isabelle Thoreaux have to do with all of this? Does Lex even still work at Luthorcorp, or does he just sit in his office and think about the stones all day?

And why was Clark so slow getting those stones together? Jor El told him he couldn't stop the meteor shower from coming no matter what. Maybe instead of taking the stones and standing in the cave chamber for ten minutes before he puts the stone in the slot, he should go out and help people evacuate? Save his parents from Jason? Save Chloe, who saved his life, from Lex? Save Lana? No, let's have our hero stand in a cave for ten minutes, save one little boy, lie on the floor for ten minutes, stand in the cave for another ten minutes, then go to the North Pole. Exciting! Let's have Jason wave a gun at the Kents for the entire episode with absolutely no purpose at all. What point exactly did that serve to the story? Why did they wait until the meteors started falling to evacuate Lana? What's in that room with Mxyzptlk?

Oh, wait. A new ship came down. Yay! What a great episode! I won't be disappointed next season with they mention it in episode one, then put it off for another 20 episodes while Clark fights jocks with Kryptonite asthma inhalers at Smallville Community College, and then bring up the ship again in the Season 5 finale.

Those are exactly my thoughts, just said much, much better. This season finale, by all means, did not "blow" nor was it horrible. However, in my opinion, it was not the best. There was simply too many questions, and not enough answers. Yes, I know, a finale does leave you with a cliffhanger or two, but instead of answering (any, I believe) questions, it simply created more than ever imaginable. I was underwhelmed. Although the special effects were amazing and incredible, it didnt make up for all that was left in the open. As an episode, it is amazing, but a finale? Finale's have some kind of closure, while this seemed lacking. And although I love and agree with all the points that mraig has pointed out above, I especially agree with the fact of Clark seeming to move incredibly slow, circling inside cave for a few minutes before actually putting the stone in. I was really hoping to see some major superman-like qualities here, and have more of him saving and helping the people around him- just one little boy didnt seem like enough. I wish they had shown more of that.

I guess what I'm really disappointed at is that this finale had soo much potential. TPTB could have done sooo much more with this finale, as so many things were made crucial near the end. They actually could have filled the 90 minutes, or at least an hour, if they had added a few scenes that put a closure onto a few important topics (clark telling chloe, witch arc that ended abruptly, etc etc.)

Please, don't get me wrong. I am not bashing this show or this episode. I respect both the creators and actors and the show in general. Honestly, I believe it was a good episode- not the worst finale ever, but also not the absolute best. I was simply underwhelmed, and had expected so much more. I just thought it could have been so much better ...

Somebody Stop Me

05-19-2005, 04:24 PM

Originally posted by Koda
I think the season finale was excellent. I don't nitpick things to death, it's just not my way, and nothing was glaringly out of place after watching last nights episode.

I judged last night's episode quite simply: Was I glued to my chair for 80 minutes? Absolutely. Did it entertain me? Definitely. Did it close chapters? Yes. Gone are the Teagues, the witches, and the search for the crystals. Did it leave new questions hanging? Yep.

As for Clark and Chloe and his secret, I'm glad it didn't come out yet. For heavens sake, she only found out about him about 7 episodes back. Why would you want it all wrapped up in the season finale? Where's the fun in that? Doesn't anyone like tension and drama anymore? If nothing else, the writers next year might build the "reveal" episode around the fact that Chloe might also find out that Clark's an alien. That would be a cool episode. How does he talk his way out of that one? Who knows? But I'll be watching.

As to the people who feel that they can't express their opinions, one way or the other, that's not true. All I can say as a Smallville fan is that it really bothers me to come to a site that I love to discuss a show only to hear people BASH the show. I'm not talking about expressing an opinion. Even though I didn't agree with some of the posts on this thread as to why you didn't enjoy the episode, some of you explained very nicely and very clearly what you felt was lacking. What bothers me as a Smallville fan is the "This Show Sucks" or "Smallville is a horrible show" or when people say some pretty awful things about the characters or actors. To me that's people just being nasty -- it's NOT giving your opinion, it's trolling.

These types of threads popped up a lot this season, and as fan that loves this show and all it's flaws, it's depressing. When you start a thread that asks "does anyone else think the season finale blew," you are specifically asking for negative posts. Frankly, this question and/or anyone's opinion could easily have been posted and added to the episode "reviews" thread. Why start a separate thread? Unless you want to either invite nothing but negative posts about the show or to instigate a reaction with the fans who loved the episode. The fact that someone wanted to read only the negative things about the episode speaks volumes to me.

Even with episodes this season that I really disliked (Bound, Lucy, Ageless), I could still pick out moments that I enjoyed. I don't think anyone should have a problem with someone who posts that they didn't enjoy the episode, and then they explain why they didn't like it . . . I like to hear different sides to the episodes and then debate them. It's all good.
What's sad is that at times the Kryptonsite forum has become a place for nothing but negative posters, one thread after the other (sometimes by the same posters). That's just sad (and annoying).

Having said all that and having my little mini rant, I did not think Season Four was horrible. It was inconsistent and choppy at times, but there were too many good episodes for me to write off the season, including the finale.

Can't wait for Season Four DVD and Season Five premiere.

Have I told you that I love you! ;) :D

Zoghade

05-19-2005, 05:56 PM

This finale bothered me. It really did. For such an epic point in time, you expect the story to be epic itself. I liked the episode, but at times, I liked it for the wrong reasons. Chloe looked nuts when she went on about Smallville being an extraterrestrial hotspot (which made me laugh, but again, for the wrong reasons), Lana had absolutely no idea what she was doing or why for a lot of the episode ("I somehow snuck off the mansion premises without Lex knowing...even though he's supposed to be keeping close tabs on me...to give this stone to Clark for the solid, firm reasoning that it feels like it belongs to him...for some reason...that I can't pinpoint..."). And Chloe has nothing happen to her from Lex when she VERY OBVIOUSLY intentionally pushed him out of the way? That doesn't sound like a criminal mastermind on the rise to me. That sounds like a pushover. And one more point: Lionel's death (as best as I can figure it). "I don't have the stone", then all of a sudden, BAM, proof he has it. That scene was supposed to be troubling, I know it, but it came off as comical instead simply because of that timing.

My final notes now, more subjective. First is the cliffhanger ending. I understand that we're supposed to be kept in suspense, but really, this felt like a bit much, but again, not epic either. We know something's about to happen with Clark...but what? The spaceship in the field is fine. Something big has come, we know that. We may not know what, but we know it's important and something bad. I think that if the script set up for only one major cliffhanger, between Clark following the path provided by the stones and the new arrival, I'd probably think it's fine. Here, it just feel like overload. And another one: what happens to the Teagues. We know that Jason at least ends up missing for quite some time because Jensen Ackles has a new show coming up. With Genevieve's death, the Teagues are out of the picture as constantly involved in the story. This irks me because the Teagues were PERFECT as rivals to the Luthor family. Why does this matter? It gives more incentive for Lex's gradually growing dark side, and gives his character more depth in another light. Superman has Eradicator, Bizarro, etc. What about Lex? If Clark and Lex are formidable rivals against one another, what other foes does LEX have to contend against? We got to see it in action at some points this season, how about later ones?

fatty_acids

05-19-2005, 06:14 PM

answering the question of the title of the thread, i would have to say, "yes, you are the only one that thought the epi blew." :P

zanos

05-20-2005, 02:27 AM

Originally posted by lakevillethor
One of the finest posts I have seen --- my thoughts exactly. There is no question that the ep was severely lacking. However, I am excited about next season as it would be cool to see CK fight anything but meteor freaks; a new type of villan is really really overdue.

They just tried to tie up too many loose ends without tying up any. The secret with Chloe was really tragic. WTF were they thinking not having him at least know? That plot line in and of itself would have made the episode so much better. The other annoying thing is that there was really no segue from any other episodes to this one. The good thing about the previous seasons is that it has been a gradual transition, episode to episode. These most recent ones have been like throwing darts at a dart board --- honestly, just TERRIBLE. IS lex bad or good? What is Lana's role? Now that she no longer has to kill anyone for revenge of her family, is her role done? Why the hell dont they make it clear that CK knows about Chloe? An argument can be made that he does know --- as he asks her questions all the time, but WTF. What about Jonathon kent dying? He dies in the first movie in teh beginning --- why hasn't this happened yet? WTF happened in the kent household after the meteor hit?

So many questions now and I guess that is part of any cliffhanger. However, they now have so many fng loose ends to tie up I cannot keep the them straight. If you sit down and think about it, there are so many things left unanswered and they just KEEP adding more --- its time to tie up the loose ends. They should call it Scatterville...

If Clark finds out Chloe knows his secret then they can't have those wonderful exchanges where she drops him hints every episode and he pretends to be clueless.

Timester

05-20-2005, 07:58 AM

Originally posted by Koda
As to the people who feel that they can't express their opinions, one way or the other, that's not true. All I can say as a Smallville fan is that it really bothers me to come to a site that I love to discuss a show only to hear people BASH the show. I'm not talking about expressing an opinion. Even though I didn't agree with some of the posts on this thread as to why you didn't enjoy the episode, some of you explained very nicely and very clearly what you felt was lacking. What bothers me as a Smallville fan is the "This Show Sucks" or "Smallville is a horrible show" or when people say some pretty awful things about the characters or actors. To me that's people just being nasty -- it's NOT giving your opinion, it's trolling.

These types of threads popped up a lot this season, and as fan that loves this show and all it's flaws, it's depressing. When you start a thread that asks "does anyone else think the season finale blew," you are specifically asking for negative posts. Frankly, this question and/or anyone's opinion could easily have been posted and added to the episode "reviews" thread. Why start a separate thread? Unless you want to either invite nothing but negative posts about the show or to instigate a reaction with the fans who loved the episode. The fact that someone wanted to read only the negative things about the episode speaks volumes to me.

Actually, he simply shared his opinion and made a question? If people agree, then people agree, if people disagree, people disagree and explains why. Nothing more, nothing less. If anyone think is trolling, report it to the Mods and they decide if is trolling or not. That's why there are rules on the board. But rules are used on the both side. ;)

By the way, can people just stop using the "negative" word? Critiscism and negativism are two very different concepts.

lilo

05-20-2005, 08:10 AM

It didn't blow, but it was probably my least favorite finale in the show's history thus far.

fa8362

05-20-2005, 08:54 AM

I didn't think it blew, but it certainly wasn't great. How MANY times do we need to see Martha and Jonathan (especially Jonathan) being victimized?? Is Jonathan the token rag doll of the show??? Another meteor shower???? Get real!! Is that the best they can do for ideas??? My dog could write better episodes!

Hyde

05-20-2005, 09:07 AM

NO! Not possible! This was a great episode. And a great ending to the series ;)

PS:

I doubt your dog can write anyway.

Somebody Stop Me

05-20-2005, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by Hyde
This was a great episode. And a great ending to the series ;)

I don't think its the end of the series yet.

Originally posted by Hyde

PS:

I doubt your dog can write anyway.

Too funny!:lol:

Originally posted by Timester
Actually, he simply shared his opinion and made a question? If people agree, then people agree, if people disagree, people disagree and explains why. Nothing more, nothing less. If anyone think is trolling, report it to the Mods and they decide if is trolling or not. That's why there are rules on the board. But rules are used on the both side. ;)

By the way, can people just stop using the "negative" word? Critiscism and negativism are two very different concepts.

Figures. :rolleyes:

monkiboy

05-20-2005, 11:29 AM

Call me a pessimist, but the black ship is simply the plot line for series 5's cliff hanger, and little else. It's designed to get the fans talking to make sure they'll tune in next year.

They didnt answer numerous plot lines this year until the final episode, they played the clana/lex-lionel/Chloe-Clark/mulana-teague crap all the way through the season and completely avoided dealing with the stones. It's not like they were not introduced early- they just chose not to deal with them.

I honestly thought they were going to spread out his discovery of the stones over the year's episodes to keep the plot line fresh. Instead, they left it to stagnate and then resolved it in an explosion of change.
Not that change is a bad thing, but it's been serious amateur hour all season as far as the continuity and story progression is concerned. My wife and I watch Smallville, but with nowhere near the passion we had in Season's 1 and 2. 3 was a bit whacky and Lana's char irritated the hell out of us. Fourth season has been flat and dry, with a great big distracting plot line that was irrelevant (lana/teague/witch) instead of dealing with the things that needed to be dealt with.
On a bright side, we are liking Lana alot more now that she's more assertive and empowered, the way she probably should have been to begin with.

I guess I feel like I bought a Superman movie that turned out to be Days of Our Lives. The dude with the cape is in it, but he isnt the same guy I grew up with.
For Season 5 I seriously hope they re-think what they're trying to achieve with the show.
I'm not a puritan, I never read the comics and it doesnt bother me. I dont need it to adhere to the story in the comics, however Smallville shouldnt be about watching metaphoric paint dry as to Superman's development. He is afterall- Superman first, Clark Kent second. The latter is the act he puts on for everyone around him, yet in Smallville it's reversed. Seems odd to me, always has and will for some time until they resolve his self identity issues- which they need to do.

SnarkMasterJ

05-20-2005, 11:40 AM

Let it be known that when I started this thread, I was very angry, and in anger I used a word that a lot of people here seem to be hung up on, so let me just clarify the situation as of now:

The finale did not blow. But, as a culmination to all the show had worked toward for the past twenty-two episodes, it was, in my opinion (and yes, people are still allowed to have those things), an enormous letdown, especially since the show was going to hell and needed a big pick-me-up after the past few weeks. So while I don't retract what I said, hopefully that'll help a large group of you understand why I said it.

jay29617

05-20-2005, 11:42 AM

it was great best one yet

MBCorp

05-20-2005, 11:44 AM

As a stand alone episode, Commencement was great, probably one of their best. But if you look at it as an episode within the context of this season, it falls short since it fails to explain any of the unanswered questions or plotholes properly. I think that's why many were disappointed and where the divide of opinions comes in at. The people who were viewing it in the context of the entire season are disappointed since it failed to really wrap up any of the plotholes.

SnarkMasterJ

05-20-2005, 11:50 AM

Thank you...someone who understands.

monkiboy

05-20-2005, 11:56 AM

Originally posted by SnarkMasterJ
Let it be known that when I started this thread, I was very angry, and in anger I used a word that a lot of people here seem to be hung up on, so let me just clarify the situation as of now:

The finale did not blow. But, as a culmination to all the show had worked toward for the past twenty-two episodes, it was, in my opinion (and yes, people are still allowed to have those things), an enormous letdown, especially since the show was going to hell and needed a big pick-me-up after the past few weeks. So while I don't retract what I said, hopefully that'll help a large group of you understand why I said it.

I understand completely, but I think they shot their wad when they could have built it up over the previous 3-4 episodes.

If they had spaced out the developments a bit better and really worked them, we'd have all been in a frenzy like we were with previous cliffhangers. I didnt feel that way at all this time.
It was like "ho hum- another cliffhanger, wonder what jeopardy they'll put the key characters in this time so that if their contracts dont pan out they have a safe and easy "out"..."
The fact is, to me- this episode was an explosion. A really really good one, but it's a big bite out of a really big apple that should have been delivered overtime.
Instead of the teague/lana/witch storyline which added ZERO to this series.

SnarkMasterJ

05-20-2005, 12:06 PM

Originally posted by monkiboy
I understand completely, but I think they shot their wad when they could have built it up over the previous 3-4 episodes.

The fact is, to me- this episode was an explosion. A really really good one, but it's a big bite out of a really big apple that should have been delivered overtime.
Instead of the teague/lana/witch storyline which added ZERO to this series.

Now THAT'S what I'm talking about. I mean really...the only time we needed to know about Lana's witch problem was in "Sacred"...even "Spell" was expendable, 'cause it just had Lana and her other witchy half getting in Clark's way and messing things up for people.

But I guess that's what villains are still in the business for, so that analysis is subjective.

supersteve187

05-20-2005, 12:45 PM

Originally posted by SnarkMasterJ
Seriously...it was sloppily handled and not very smooth...there was no continuity with any of the other episodes in the first part of the season (I mean, for the love of all that's holy, Clark acted like he didn't know the stones were meant for him -- where did THAT come from???)...there was far too much Lana and not enough Chloe (but that's subjective I guess)...

I'm not pleased at all. They'll have to do a complete 180 for me to tune in for S5.

Wow...you must be hard to please. That episode was brilliant. Yes, you are the only one.

fa8362

05-20-2005, 12:48 PM

"That episode was brilliant."

What was brilliant about it? I've watched it twice and I don't see anything brilliant in it.

Hyde

05-20-2005, 12:57 PM

Originally posted by Somebody Stop Me
I don't think its the end of the series yet.

Tell me you were shocked when you just read it ... ;)

Dannyblue1

05-20-2005, 12:58 PM

I can't help thinking that, for some, the rest of the season was so below par that "Commencement" was able to blow them away by comparison. (And the special effects helped.) It's like going without food for a while. Under those circumstances, you'd probably think a can of Vienna sausages was the best food you ever ate.

I think that, had the rest of the season been at least as good as "Commencement", which it should have been, people would not have been so impressed by this ep. But, to me, it was no better than some other pretty good eps of SV.

supersteve187

05-20-2005, 01:00 PM

Originally posted by fa8362
"That episode was brilliant."

What was brilliant about it? I've watched it twice and I don't see anything brilliant in it.

-Brilliant Scenes in the Finale-

1. Lana seeing the spaceship
Perhaps the most brilliant scene in the episode, this leaves the viewers wondering many things. Obviously, everyone is guessing who it is (braniac, eradicator, etc.). Secondly, it makes us all wonder where the ship came from and if Jor-El had something to do with it. And what is going to happen to Lana now that she saw this spaceship and whatever was inside as it opened?

2. Lex revealing his true self to Lana
When Lex went all BA on Lana, he revealed to her that he only was interested in the stone. Sure, he tried to cover his anger up by saying that he only cares about her, but we all know that she realized then what Lex was all about.

3. Chloe covering for Clark
Another great scene. Chloe pulls Clark away from the Kryptonite-filled vault, saving his life, and perhaps protecting his secret from Lex. This means that she now realizes that meteor rock is harmful to Clark. Also, she was willing to put herself on the line for Clark.

*if you want more, feel free to ask, I think the above scenes were great because they either appealed heavily to the audience (including me), furthered a plot point, posed a great question to the viewers, or incorporated suspense in dramatic fashion.

fa8362

05-20-2005, 01:04 PM

Brilliance must be in the eye of the beholder.

Jennut

05-20-2005, 01:08 PM

It was an okay season finale. I am interested to see what happens next season.

supersteve187

05-20-2005, 01:10 PM

Well, seeing as my perspective coinsides with the majority of viewers, you are the minority here.

I believe the scenes I listed above (along with others) were brilliant compared to other SV episodes. Of course, one cannot simply define "brilliance" and use that definition in any given sense. I use brilliance to say that those scenes were well-planned, written, acted, and directed in relation to other SV eps.

Dannyblue1

05-20-2005, 01:16 PM

Originally posted by supersteve187
Well, seeing as my perspective coinsides with the majority of viewers, you are the minority here.

I believe the scenes I listed above (along with others) were brilliant compared to other SV episodes. Of course, one cannot simply define "brilliance" and use that definition in any given sense. I use brilliance to say that those scenes were well-planned, written, acted, and directed in relation to other SV eps.

Number one, a minority opinion doesn't make you wrong. It just means you have a different opinion.

Number two, a few good scenes does not a brilliant episode make. It's not about individual scenes, but how it all ties together, how it all flows.

Take "Gifts" on BtVS. (I had to do it, darn it!) That episode was brilliant because, while it had some great fight scenes, the quiet moments were also great. From the montage at the very beginning, to the very end (which I could barely see through the tears) it had me hooked.

"Commencement" didn't have me hooked, sadly.

Somebody Stop Me

05-20-2005, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by Hyde
Tell me you were shocked when you just read it ... ;)

Hyde will you rephrase the statement/question/answer.

supersteve187

05-20-2005, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by Dannyblue1
Number one, a minority opinion doesn't make you wrong. It just means you have a different opinion.

Number two, a few good scenes does not a brilliant episode make. It's not about individual scenes, but how it all ties together, how it all flows.

Take "Gifts" on BtVS. (I had to do it, darn it!) That episode was brilliant because, while it had some great fight scenes, the quiet moments were also great. From the montage at the very beginning, to the very end (which I could barely see through the tears) it had me hooked.

"Commencement" didn't have me hooked, sadly.

First of all, you are right, a minority opinion is not always wrong. No one ever said that it was...you are the first to mention that, not me. Secondly, I did list a few scenes, but I can list plenty more that I believe to be brilliant.

You seem to want more proof that it was brilliant, Danny. Well, IMO I think the ep did flow and have continuity with the rest of the season. It summed up the "three stones" plot and introduced the new spaceship. Those are only two of the plot advancements/installments. I dont have time to list them all, but there were plenty more and you saw the ep so you should know.

Hyde

05-20-2005, 01:23 PM

Originally posted by Somebody Stop Me
Hyde will you rephrase the statement/question/answer.

I wanted to know if you were shocked when you read Commencement is the end of the series ... :D

Somebody Stop Me

05-20-2005, 01:26 PM

Oh Ok my bad I didn't understand the question. Personally I didn't read that. Did you see that somewhere?

Hyde

05-20-2005, 01:26 PM

Yeah, I wrote that ^^

Dannyblue1

05-20-2005, 01:35 PM

Originally posted by supersteve187
You seem to want more proof that it was brilliant, Danny. Well, IMO I think the ep did flow and have continuity with the rest of the season. It summed up the "three stones" plot and introduced the new spaceship. Those are only two of the plot advancements/installments. I dont have time to list them all, but there were plenty more and you saw the ep so you should know.

Brilliance is in the eye of the beholder. The episode worked for you. It fell flat for me. We can share our opinions, and disagree with each other's points of veiw (which is all I thought we were doing) but I'm not demanding that you prove something to me.

In my opinion, the episode didn't flow from the rest of the season. There were a whole lot of questions this season raised, and the finale didn't satisfy me in regards to most of them.

Arista 07

05-20-2005, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by supersteve187
-Brilliant Scenes in the Finale-

1. Lana seeing the spaceship
Perhaps the most brilliant scene in the episode, this leaves the viewers wondering many things. Obviously, everyone is guessing who it is (braniac, eradicator, etc.). Secondly, it makes us all wonder where the ship came from and if Jor-El had something to do with it. And what is going to happen to Lana now that she saw this spaceship and whatever was inside as it opened?

2. Lex revealing his true self to Lana
When Lex went all BA on Lana, he revealed to her that he only was interested in the stone. Sure, he tried to cover his anger up by saying that he only cares about her, but we all know that she realized then what Lex was all about.

3. Chloe covering for Clark
Another great scene. Chloe pulls Clark away from the Kryptonite-filled vault, saving his life, and perhaps protecting his secret from Lex. This means that she now realizes that meteor rock is harmful to Clark. Also, she was willing to put herself on the line for Clark.

*if you want more, feel free to ask, I think the above scenes were great because they either appealed heavily to the audience (including me), furthered a plot point, posed a great question to the viewers, or incorporated suspense in dramatic fashion.
I suppose the measure of a good episode is subjective and privy to you. If you think select "brilliant" (and I'm willing to debate you on that description) scenes are all that make for a good episode, you're thinking on a rather miniscule scale. For example, "Magnetic" wasn't exactly a well received episode, but it did showcase Clark using his abilities in calculating way, as he never had before. In order to hault Seth and Lana's getaway, Clark melted the asphalt with his heat vision. I think that was a truly brilliant scene contained in a rather dismal episode.

My definition of a good episode stems from the use of character exposition, organic development within characters, dialogue, continuity (especially in a finale), believable resolution to any remaining storylines, etc. The above make for great scenes and an overall great episode. Sadly, writers faultered with at least one character with every description (sans dialogue.)

As for you examples, your justification of them are rather vague. You define brilliance as a scene that "incorporates suspense in a dramatic fashion"? Smallville is a drama, it should accomplish doing so weekly. There is nothing extraordinary about a drama being suspenseful; it is to be expected. "Appeal heavily to the audience," could you be anymore vauge? What does that mean, pray tell? "Posed a great question to the viewers," is very general and it would be nice if you cited the context of the aforementioned question(s). I'm certain the question is more significant than the fact one is being posed.

As for furthering a plot point, I believe that was in reference to example #3. Unfortunately, Chloe alread discovered Clark's "allergy" to kryptonite in "Spirit" so no progression there. Unless, I'm missing something.

MBCorp

05-20-2005, 01:53 PM

I didn't think it was brilliant for tptb to turn Lex into a creepy Lana-stalker.

Summers

05-20-2005, 01:58 PM

Originally posted by MBCorp
I didn't think it was brilliant for tptb to turn Lex into a creepy Lana-stalker.

That was very creepy. I mean in Lionel touched on it. I dont know how I feel by it, but when my sister and I were watching it we started to say "ewww". IMO Lex was pretty inconsistent in this episode with the words/feelings he was saying.

Arista 07

05-20-2005, 02:02 PM

Originally posted by MBCorp
I didn't think it was brilliant for tptb to turn Lex into a creepy Lana-stalker.
:lol:

Lex seemed almost as obsessed with Lana as he was with the stones. Really he through me for a loop with some of the stuff he was saying. That's why I have this inkling that season five of Smallville will be turned into the Trojan War. Lana Lang: The preternaturally pretty girl who sprang a thousand. . .

Summers

05-20-2005, 02:04 PM

Originally posted by Arista 07
:lol:

Lex seemed almost as obsessed with Lana as he was with the stones. Really he through me for a loop with some of the stuff he was saying. That's why I have this inkling that season five of Smallville will be turned into the Trojan War. Lana Lang: The preternaturally pretty girl who sprang a thousand. . .

:
-stalkers
-killings of FoTWs
-meteors
-and a black ship

Who ever said Anakin will destory everyone...they were wrong. Its Lana Lang.

knb18

05-20-2005, 02:07 PM

Originally posted by MBCorp
I didn't think it was brilliant for tptb to turn Lex into a creepy Lana-stalker.

Agreed. That was creepy and boring. Ugh.

MBCorp

05-20-2005, 02:11 PM

Lex was like a dirty old man in his scenes with Lana. Ugh. That's the only time that I've not found Lex to be sexy. If this is the way that they're going with Lex's character then I'm going to be very disappointed.:( I agree with Summers that it was very inconsistent with Lex's character and very OOC. I have a bad feeling that next season Lex will be obsessed with Lana and be creepily stalking her.

Daphne

05-20-2005, 02:44 PM

Lex is evil guys. I know no one wanted it to happen but Lex Luthor is a not a character to be loved, he's the villian of this story. He was trying to warn us. :)

MBCorp

05-20-2005, 02:59 PM

I don't mind him being evil, but it's a bit tiring to see him become yet another creepy Lana-stalker. *shrugs* I just thought that they were going to do something more interesting when Lex went evil.

Sydafex7

05-20-2005, 03:02 PM

Originally posted by SnarkMasterJ
Oh, would you look at that...guess I'm not the only one. Sorry folks, looks like your sources were as shoddy as the plot progession the whole last half of the season.

And the finale didn't blow necessarily as a regular Smallville episode...it just didn't fit with how S4 started out. It's called a lack of continuity.

lack of continuity? How? The season started with the stones and it ended with the stones. How does that not fit with how the season started out?

The only thing NOT tied up is the ship and whats in it.

I highly doubt Clark sped off without seeing Chloe's the one that pulled him away. She was standign right there and CLark can see fine even when hes running really fast.

I mean last season's finalie was all crammed into the last 5 minutes. It when no where until the end.

IN this finalie we got a question answered in the opening scene.
Throughout most of the episode, People were trying to gather the stones and it all lead up to what the stones purpose was. I thought it was paced very nicely and dont really see why everyone thinks the pacing was off.. Like I said last seasons was paced horribly because it left WAAAY more questions than answers and all of the questions came up in the ending montage.

Just my opinion
and Like someone said.

You cant please everyone.. I mean I liked it, soooo Im happy sorry for those who didnt.. really really sorry

MBCorp

05-20-2005, 03:07 PM

I liked the episode but there was bad continuity this entire season. Such as the witch arc. Someone please explain the witch arc to me without fanwanking it and I'll be happy.

Sydafex7

05-20-2005, 03:20 PM

Clark's scene when he throws the stone. I wish there had been some sort of dialogue exchange between him and Jor-el. Somethin. Maybe even to himself. What got him into throwing the stone? Where did the stone land?

as a film student i feel like this was the worse cut. Clark throwing the stone, we go further away from clark seemingly following the soaring stone... then title card: to be continued. Leaving us hanging. There has to be some sort of conclusion to any story, whether it is to be continued or not. Where that stone landed and what became of the stone afterward was, i think, a very important aspect of the episode that the editor (or director) should've kept.

For instance, in the first two back to the future movies, they each had a conclusion. And they each were to be continued.

Smallville's season finale had no conclusion. :mad: [/B]

The stone pointed in the direction first, and then out of common sense Clark realizes thats where it needed to go

Have you seen the first Superman movie? Clark in that Movie also had no way of knowing he wa supposed to throw the crystal, but he did anyways...

TPTB assume we have all seen or at least heard of the first superman movie and how the FoS comes to be. Clark throws the crystal and boom the FoS appears. knowing this, we can conclude that thats what will happen in Smallville. We dont need to see the fortress or where the stone lands because we already know.

B to the future movies were both concluded yes, but the "to be continued" used in those movies werent the same as Smallville. That is letting you know that their adverntures arent over and they will travel through time once more.

Also, I dont see why everyone all of a sudden has a problem with cliff hangers!! We have gotten them each season so far!!! Hell last year we got like 4 of them! The year before that we got 2 with Lex and Clark and the year before that we got 2 with Lana and the twisters and Jonathan and the reporter.

I mean geesh Cliff hangers have always been apart of this show... WHy all of a sudden the hatred for them??

Originally posted by Summers
Ryan, it looked like the only arc that was closed was the witch arc. Everything else was carried over to next season.

The witch arch AND the stones have been concluded. We know where the stones lead to.. the FoS.. we KNOW this.

I highly doubt Clark didnt see Chloe save him from the K. I mean she was right there and when he super sped off I doubt he didnt notice her in the room with him. Even if she didnt, that is really the only plot point from season 4 carried over. Everything lese was taken care of.

I mean one was introduced (the ship) and one was carried over

Last season only had ONE plot point taken care of and that was Jonathans deal with Jorel.

I mean Lionel going to prison wasnt introduced until the second to last episode!! Lex spying on his dad wasnt brought up until half way through the season! All the major story archs of season 3 were introduced way after the opening episode, except for jonathans deal with jorel. In fact the cliff hangers we got had NOTHING to do with ANYTHING in the season!! Maybe chloe blowing up becausewe know she has had a hard time with Lionel but everything else no. You want a sloppy season then watch season 3 Season 4 was tied together by one central storyline , whcih giave it a nice flow and gave it more continuity than
season 3.

Lex's sanity was a big theme in season 3 and that was solved waaaay before the finalie. weak.

Summers

05-20-2005, 03:41 PM

Originally posted by Sydafex7

The witch arch AND the stones have been concluded. We know where the stones lead to.. the FoS.. we KNOW this.

I know what the stones lead to :rolleyes:

I didnt mention the stones because it is not done. Did we see the FoS? No we did not. Once we do, then the stone arc will be then be completed. Not before because we dont know what will happen in the premiere. That's an assumption like an assumption many people had of us actually seeing the FoS in Commencement. Hence the stone arc being carried over to next season.

The stone arc is not fully completed yet ;).

Dannyblue1

05-20-2005, 04:00 PM

Just because a storyline carries through the season doesn't mean that storyline had good continuity. Not if the storyline contradicts itself. And I'm not just talking about Jason apparantly working for his mother all along, when onscreen events point to the contrary. I'm talking about Lanabel's grand mission being, apparantly, to kill GT. Why didn't she just do that before? Why was she interested in the stones? After all, she killed GT, she went away. So, apparantly, the stones weren't necessary to her mission, right? She could've killed GT at any time, and spared us the witch arc.

And Jason. He's a descendent, too. Shouldn't Lanabel also have wanted him dead. So, why not go after him? Why leave (which, I'm guessing, is what the tattoo vanishing meant) before making sure he was dead. (And, remember, she had no way of knowing Lionel shot him, unless she used some kind of witchly psycic powers. And, if she used witchly psycic powers, she would've known he was still alive despite being shot and falling off a cliff.)

You see, there's good continuity, a lack of continuity (which is usually SV's problem), and bad continuity (where nothing makes sense, there are gross contradicts, and they outright get thier own canon wrong). Yeah, there was continuity, of a sort, with the witch stuff, and the stones. But it was mostly of the bad kind.

MBCorp

05-20-2005, 04:05 PM

I have yet to understand Isobel. All throughout Spell and Sacred it was "I want the stones! I must have the stones! I want the stones!" over and over and over again. So it makes no sense whatsoever that all she cared about was killing GT, since she didn't show any interest in killing GT before this episode. She wanted the stones. That was her big deal, the stones. That's what she cared about.

But you can hardly blame tptb for getting rid of that witch storyline as quickly as possible. They realized it was a mistake and so ditched it so they could get on to the important stuff for season 5 (the ship, the FOS, etc). It was just really badly done and thought out and no one yet has been able to explain that witch arc thoroughly.

lynelle

05-20-2005, 04:16 PM

Originally posted by Summers
:
-stalkers
-killings of FoTWs
-meteors
-and a black ship

Who ever said Anakin will destory everyone...they were wrong. Its Lana Lang.
:rotfl:

Oh, I think Anakin can take Lana with one hand tied behind his back. Winner destroys all, friendships, relationships etc :lol:

Lex was like a dirty old man in his scenes with Lana. Ugh. That's the only time that I've not found Lex to be sexy. If this is the way that they're going with Lex's character then I'm going to be very disappointed. I agree with Summers that it was very inconsistent with Lex's character and very OOC. I have a bad feeling that next season Lex will be obsessed with Lana and be creepily stalking her.
If they want to breakdown his character, all they have to do is keep on intensifying this thing with Lana. Seeing Anakin's reciprocated love for Padme contribute to his downfall is one thing, it's tragic, Lex's unrequited one for Lana is a whole other issue. And it doesn't get any better whenever you take in Lana's reaction to it. I find it quite an insult to Lex's story, but the writers will do whatever they want. That will be one way of watering down what could have been a great fall.

zanos

05-20-2005, 04:44 PM

Originally posted by MBCorp
As a stand alone episode, Commencement was great, probably one of their best. But if you look at it as an episode within the context of this season, it falls short since it fails to explain any of the unanswered questions or plotholes properly. I think that's why many were disappointed and where the divide of opinions comes in at. The people who were viewing it in the context of the entire season are disappointed since it failed to really wrap up any of the plotholes.

The plotholes is what gives this show it's signature. No other show has anywhere near as many plotholes. This is what makes Smallville special and keeps the fans guessing, literally. :)

Originally posted by fa8362
I didn't think it blew, but it certainly wasn't great. How MANY times do we need to see Martha and Jonathan (especially Jonathan) being victimized?? Is Jonathan the token rag doll of the show??? Another meteor shower???? Get real!! Is that the best they can do for ideas??? My dog could write better episodes!

Don't be retarded. There is no way your dog can write better. At most it may have equal writing skills but not better.

Originally posted by Dannyblue1
Just because a storyline carries through the season doesn't mean that storyline had good continuity. Not if the storyline contradicts itself. And I'm not just talking about Jason apparantly working for his mother all along, when onscreen events point to the contrary. I'm talking about Lanabel's grand mission being, apparantly, to kill GT. Why didn't she just do that before? Why was she interested in the stones? After all, she killed GT, she went away. So, apparantly, the stones weren't necessary to her mission, right? She could've killed GT at any time, and spared us the witch arc.

Isobel wanted the stones so she could kill GT with it! Duh!!

Originally posted by MBCorp
I have yet to understand Isobel. All throughout Spell and Sacred it was "I want the stones! I must have the stones! I want the stones!" over and over and over again. So it makes no sense whatsoever that all she cared about was killing GT, since she didn't show any interest in killing GT before this episode. She wanted the stones. That was her big deal, the stones. That's what she cared about.

But you can hardly blame tptb for getting rid of that witch storyline as quickly as possible. They realized it was a mistake and so ditched it so they could get on to the important stuff for season 5 (the ship, the FOS, etc). It was just really badly done and thought out and no one yet has been able to explain that witch arc thoroughly.

I just did. Look at my explaination above.

Timester

05-20-2005, 04:46 PM

Originally posted by zanos
Don't be retarded. There is no way your dog can write better. At most it may have equal writing skills but not better.

Isobel wanted the stones so she could kill GT with it! Duh!!

:rotfl:

Best answers ever.

Summers

05-20-2005, 05:33 PM

Originally posted by lynelle
:rotfl:

Oh, I think Anakin can take Lana with one hand tied behind his back. Winner destroys all, friendships, relationships etc :lol:
.

Yea, but he was malipulated to save Padma what's Lana excuse :lol:.

MBCorp

05-20-2005, 05:38 PM

Originally posted by lynelle
If they want to breakdown his character, all they have to do is keep on intensifying this thing with Lana. Seeing Anakin's reciprocated love for Padme contribute to his downfall is one thing, it's tragic, Lex's unrequited one for Lana is a whole other issue. And it doesn't get any better whenever you take in Lana's reaction to it. I find it quite an insult to Lex's story, but the writers will do whatever they want. That will be one way of watering down what could have been a great fall.

I agree, it is a serious insult to Lex's story to turn him into just another Lana stalker. Lex is supposed to be the ultimate villain and yet they've made him no better than any other creepy fotw Lana stalker. Hopefully they won't explore this anymore, but I have a bad feeling that they will.

SHSAlumni

05-20-2005, 05:42 PM

Not as good as season three's finale, but much better than season one's. I'm not expecting anything to live up to season three's, though.

Somebody Stop Me

05-20-2005, 06:55 PM

Originally posted by MBCorp
I don't mind him being evil, but it's a bit tiring to see him become yet another creepy Lana-stalker. *shrugs* I just thought that they were going to do something more interesting when Lex went evil.

What do you suggest they do? There's only so much you can do in SV. They need to move Lex to Metropolis and get him out of Smallville first off.

MBCorp

05-20-2005, 06:57 PM

Originally posted by Somebody Stop Me
What do you suggest they do? There's only so much you can do in SV. They need to move Lex to Metropolis and get him out of Smallville first off.

I agree that they need to get Lex to Metropolis as fast as possible and have him forget all about Miss Lang. Let him do cool evil things in Level 33.1.

Somebody Stop Me

05-20-2005, 07:14 PM

That's a good idea and I hope tptb heard you.

M.D.

05-20-2005, 07:18 PM

I thought that this finale was okay. It probably should have actually been 90 minutes.. I think season 4 overall has been weak on continuity.

Sydafex7

05-21-2005, 10:29 AM

Originally posted by Summers
I know what the stones lead to :rolleyes:

I didnt mention the stones because it is not done. Did we see the FoS? No we did not. Once we do, then the stone arc will be then be completed. Not before because we dont know what will happen in the premiere. That's an assumption like an assumption many people had of us actually seeing the FoS in Commencement. Hence the stone arc being carried over to next season.

The stone arc is not fully completed yet ;).

Well whatever. I know where the crystal leads to, so I guess I feel as if it is completed. If you dont, sorry..

This is what I need for a great episode season finalie.

Questions answered
New questions brought up (to carry the premier)
excitement
surprises
drama
action
great special effects
great acting

To me, every single one of those things was taken care of, so I was satisfied and happy.

The powers that be cannot please everyone and I am sorry for this

for those who do think the finalie "Blew" I feel sorry for you because a show you once thought was great, you now have no faith in. I guess its time to start watching something else.. Im sorry..

What I don't get is why everyone is saying this finalie wasnt as good as as season 3's...

I do not understand this because in Covenent, the only question that was really answered was what the deal was that Jonathan made with Jor-el. Actually now that I think about it, that was the only seasonal arch we had! You kind of say thw whole Lionel killing his grandparents was a seasonal arch I guess because that is what landed him in jail, but he was arrested in Forsaken so really that was resolved before the finalie. Maybe Lex's battle with his sanity but that didnt go the entire season either. This is the problem I have always had with the third season. Nothing really ties all of the episodes together. We got several different archs but none of them lasted the entire season.The whole Adam thing is another example. That was tied up 4-5 episodes before the finalie.
All of the cliff hangers we got for season 4 was Chloe's death, Jonathan laying in the cave and Clark in the phantom Zone. Sure Lex was poisoned but this was dumb because we know he survives. And they didnt explore his whole "blood purification" outside of the season 4 premier. The "crusade" symbol burnt into the field at the Kent farm was pretty lame too. All in all, the only question answered was Jonathans deal with Jor-el. Thats it. ONE. Then we get a BUNCH of new questions. Most of them which arent even that important.

I guess this is only me, but I feel as if the stone arch gave season 4 great continuity because it lasted the entire season. It brought the episodes together because almost each episode at least had SOMETHING with the stones in it. To me, it made the season jell together a lot better than the other seasons.

Never before have we had a main seasonal arch. Season one had the closest thing to a seasonal arch with Roger Nixon coming in "X-ray", which was the 3 episode. Since Roger was the part of the main story of the finalie thats pretty close to a seasonal arch. But the twisters were just thrown in out of nowhere.

The caves were the main theme of season 2, but they werent introduced in the beginning of the season. Jor-el wasnt introduced until the very end and Helen and Lex's relationship wasnt introduced in the beginning either. Unless Im missing one, I dont see a seasonal arch at all. Everthing in the season 2 finalie was brought up later in the season.

Season 3 Had one seasonal arch that I realy cant count because it was brought up in the premier (jonathans deal with Jorel) and was mentioned a couple times through out in the form of Clark asking Jonathan and Jonathan shutting him down time after time. That story didnt have any progression.

Season 3 was the weakest to me because We got a bunch of subplots that didnt span the entire season, they were introduced for an X numver of episodes and then wrapped up. Examples of this are Adam Knight, Clark's blood, Lex's sanity, Lionel and his grandparents/morgan edge. None of these lasted the entire season.

In smallville you should have Series Archs, Seasonal Archs and Episode Archs. SO far season 4 is the only season to truly deliver all three. We get the series arch which is Clark's destiny and the superman mythology, we got the stones and the witches, and each episode had an arch also.

Of course... all of this is an opinion and doesnt really matter... just thought Id back up my reasons as much as possible.

One last thing.. I also dont understand why so many people are upset of the cliff hangers..EVERY SINGLE FINALIE has had cliff hangers so far.. how come all of a sudden people seem so surprised by Commencement?

Bobbythe2nd

05-21-2005, 10:54 AM

Well said Sydafex7.

Despite the great archs season four has had, I do feel they couldve done it a little better. But I agree that Commencement is definitely the BEST smallville finale and one of the best episodes of the series. People liked tempest for the last ten minutes or so cuz of the tornado.... I personally thought exodus was the best finale until this one....but one of the reasons why it was good was because the episode prior to it was well written and made it a smooth transaction, and on top of that, the beauty that was Exile came after it.....Then we come to covenant that in my opinion was the weakest of the finales... a girl Kara who we were all suped thinking it was supergirl, played a pawn in a very confusing Jor-El dominant father arch....First 45minutes of covenant were boring despite them making it up with probably the best five minutes in the series with lionel gettin his head shaved....but five minutes cannot become the best hour of a finale....Then comes commencement...with answers to some archs like the isobel one, and non-stop action....We finally get to see clark embrace his destiny despite him not wanting too...He thought the stones weren't for him because of sacred and all the kryptonite in the chamber....then we see Lex's true side coming out....then chloe saving clark!....and Lionel deaD?.....and smallville with another metero shower!.....Chloe knocking lex and seeing clark in the cave!....and the kents about to get shotguned!....and to top it all off a new ship!(with the same shape as the stone?)....Yea I will say this was the BEST finale in the series. Now lets just hope they have a good premiere. Bravo TPTB for a great finale!!!

Sydafex7

05-21-2005, 10:59 AM

Well Im glad someone read that entire post. I need to get a life. I just love this show so much that I like to stick up for it. Im glad someone else agrees with my problem with the other finalies.

And you know what? You have a GREAT explaination for why clark said he didnt think the stones were for him. I totally forogt about that Kryptonite in the secret passage.. And him coming homing saying "I thought they were for me but now Im not so sure" And thats why Clark totally forgot about them and we didnt see him caring about them until the finalie.

Hmm, I wonder why that K was in that secret passage? interesting..

Dannyblue1

05-21-2005, 11:01 AM

Originally posted by Sydafex7
One last thing.. I also dont understand why so many people are upset of the cliff hangers..EVERY SINGLE FINALIE has had cliff hangers so far.. how come all of a sudden people seem so surprised by Commencement?

I don't think anyone's saying their problem with the finale was that it was a cliffhanger. Some of my favorite episodes of other shows (like ST:TNG) were cliffhangers. No, we're talking about other stuff that didn't quite gel in the episode for us, mainly the fact that they didn't do a whole lot to tie up a storyline that pretty much held the show hostage for a lot of season 4.

Plus, I think finale's are stronger when the episode (heck, the whole season) is stronger.

Bobbythe2nd

05-21-2005, 11:04 AM

Well Sydafex7, like yourself, I have to back my show up. I will stick up for no matter what...despite their being some pretty bad episodes in the series, I have to stay faithful. All series have bad episodes, but Commencement was certainly NOT one of them. People nitpick too much and don't enjoy the episode for little reasons. You can't expect everything to be perfect, but like i said, I think commencement had very very little problems, I actually thought it was flawless and could possibly rank in the top 3 episodes in the series.

I also wonder why the kryptonite was in the chamber....maybe because people knew it was meant for a kryptonian and they knew that made them weak so they put it in?......Who knows!

PS. I kinda have no life but Im at work and have nuthin better to do....
: )

Timester

05-21-2005, 11:08 AM

Again, people think that standalone episode is a supreme entity. Commencement was a great standalone episode, but in terms of serie, there were several plot holes and non-answered questions.

Originally posted by Bobbythe2nd
I also wonder why the kryptonite was in the chamber....maybe because people knew it was meant for a kryptonian and they knew that made them weak so they put it in?......Who knows!

So, it's good to have alot "Who knows"? Perhaps that's why the ratings dropped this season. :rolleyes:

We are supposed to know.

Bobbythe2nd

05-21-2005, 11:11 AM

Timester you are right. There were many unanswered questions...but TPTB is known for doing that. If Commencement had the backup that Exodus had, we'd be raving about it right now. Calling was such a good setup to Exodus it made it so much better than it was. Commencement was a stand alone episode, but like i said it was just so well written that it erased my memories of the horrror that was ageless and forever. How can you appreciate a finale with those two episodes behind it?

Sydafex7

05-21-2005, 11:14 AM

Originally posted by Timester
Again, people think that standalone episode is a supreme entity. Commencement was a great standalone episode, but in terms of serie, there were several plot holes and non-answered questions.

So, it's good to have alot "Who knows"? Perhaps that's why the ratings dropped this season. :rolleyes:

We are supposed to know.

Yes it is good to have some... I like having things like the question of why K was in the chamber in the temple. It leaves it open for my OWN interpretation, which makes the show unique to each user. Same thing with some songs. They can be interpreted different ways by different people, same thing with movies.

Everyone wants everything spelled out for them and handed to them on a plate.

Bobbythe2nd

05-21-2005, 11:17 AM

Originally posted by Timester

So, it's good to have alot "Who knows"? Perhaps that's why the ratings dropped this season. :rolleyes:

We are supposed to know.

I agree...we do need to know, but we can't win them all. If we had one great writer that wrote every episode, maybe we would have answers. But unfortunately every writer has their ups and downs. Its a shame that Al and Miles allow some of the things that go on in smallville to happen. But I forgive them for now after watching commencement like 10 times and loving it more and more every time i watch it.

Originally posted by Sydafex7
Yes it is good to have some... I like having things like the question of why K was in the chamber in the temple. It leaves it open for my OWN interpretation, which makes the show unique to each user. Same thing with some songs. They can be interpreted different ways by different people, same thing with movies.

Everyone wants everything spelled out for them and handed to them on a plate.

Exactly! Some things are better left unknown, or not even unknown but just left up the audience. Its a risky writing technique but an effective one. Sorry you feel that way Timester. All i can do is take it and enjoy it.

Sydafex7

05-21-2005, 11:20 AM

I dont buy the whole "its a good episode as a standalone episode". I would say why and back it up, but I cant because I dont know why, I just dont buy it.. sorry I cant back it up...

I guess with me, I dont expect much from TV anymore. EVERY SINGLE SHOW on TV has plot holes. EVERYTHING. I was watching the season finalie of CSI on thursday which was directed by Quentin Tarantino and the writer of the basic story (who's movies have very little plot holes in them) and it had several things in it that made no sense. I didnt expect that from him, but even he has problems I guess.

I watch smallville and I try not to pick it apart left and right like others do because well, it just doesnt get us anywhere. We can sit here on these forums and just totally pick it apart, but at the end of the day it doesnt matter.
The whole helicopter thing. When we see it hit the ground and then cut to another scene, I do not think that was meant to make us think Lana was dead. I dont know about you guys, but I sure as hell knew she was still alive. Its lana. A main character of the show.

We arent supposed to think she is dead. That is just a shot that they use to let us know the helicopter crashed. Its a type of shot. They easily could have used the basic shot of us watching the helicopter crash from a distance, but instead they went with a first person perspective (through lana's eyes). Thats all. The cliff hanger isnt wether or not she is dead, but just her situation in general. This is why her seeing that huge ship was awesome for me. It was such a surprise. I wasnt expecting for them to cut back to her at all. I thought that was a cliff hanger and we needed to wait to see what was up with her situation. But no they cut back to her and she sees someon get out of a ship! That blew me away because that was something i was NOT expecting.

Now you ask if the writers are running out of ideas? OF COURSE. This is the 4 season going into the 5th! IF you read the intro in one of the Season DVD packs, I dont remember if it was the 3rd or the 2nd season, but they have a quote from Al and Miles that says "the one question we had was 'how the hell are we gonna come up with 22 more episodes?'" You guys need to understand that its HARD to write for a television series. Its not like a movie which is hard also, but you are telling miniature stories that span anywhere from 4-10 years. Look at Friends and Raymond. Those episodes are only 30 minutes long and they spanned 10 years!!! The last couple of seasons are never as good as the first 3 or 4. With a movie, you are writing for 2 hours sometimes less or more. With smallville, they are have writting 88 hours!!!! 88 take out commercials okay a little less. But do you get what Im saying? Its easy for us on these boards to come up with ideas. But those are OUR ideas. the writers have a vision for the show and I guarantee you they alerady know how it ends. Then, they just gotta get there within 5-6 seasons. Its like, theyve got a beginning and they got an end and now they gotta fill in the middle

Star Wars is a great example. We have the last 3 episodes already and now Lucas had to make it all into a circle. He ahd to finish the gap and trust me.. there are a TON of plot holes, but you just have to enjoy it for what it is.

I look at some of you who analyze the hell out of Smallville and I see that you guys dont seem to enjoy the show as much as me. I dont analyze the show. I watch it and look for the good and wipe out the bad for my mind. I find myself enjoying it sooo much more when I do that.

Thats all I gotta say. Good Luck to those who are mad about season 4. hopefully you find another Show you can watch that pleases you. But good luck with that because Television SUCKS these days. Shows like Smallville are very rare... despite what you guys think of the way season 4 turned out...
TPTB cant please everyone..

Bobbythe2nd

05-21-2005, 11:33 AM

Well said again!

Smallville is one of the better shows out there, and its a shame people criticize it for every little plot hole in it.

P.S. Don't worry smallville, I will back you up till the end....kinda like marriage, till death do us part...hopefully for you its not anytime soon!

Dannyblue1

05-21-2005, 11:45 AM

Originally posted by Bobbythe2nd
Exactly! Some things are better left unknown, or not even unknown but just left up the audience. Its a risky writing technique but an effective one. Sorry you feel that way Timester. All i can do is take it and enjoy it.

Sorry, I strongly disagree.

It's one thing for a show to leave it to the viewer to decide what message or theme to take from it. To not preach to the viewer about this or that, but to leave it to them to form their own opinion.

But to just not fully resolve a major storyline that's taken up most of the season? They don't even have the nerve to do that on so-called edgy, hip, "rule breaking" series. And SV is supposed to be, if nothing else, mainstream.

In a lot of ways, a story arc is like a mystery. It's okay if you don't know who the killer is in chapter 5, or 12, or 29. But, buy the end, the killer's identity had better be revealed. If the writer closed the book without doing so, because he wanted the readers to decide for themselves who the culprit was, I'd be saying to myself, "What a crock! Are you kidding me?!"

And, really, what some of you are trying to dress up as some grand design, some great artistic vision, on the part of the SV writers, is nothing more than sloppy writing, lazy planning of the arc way back in the beginning, and a last ditch attempt to get rid of it when finally, after an entire season, they admitted it wasn't working.

Bobbythe2nd

05-21-2005, 11:57 AM

Sydafex7

05-21-2005, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by Dannyblue1
Sorry, I strongly disagree.

It's one thing for a show to leave it to the viewer to decide what message or theme to take from it. To not preach to the viewer about this or that, but to leave it to them to form their own opinion.

But to just not fully resolve a major storyline that's taken up most of the season? They don't even have the nerve to do that on so-called edgy, hip, "rule breaking" series. And SV is supposed to be, if nothing else, mainstream.

In a lot of ways, a story arc is like a mystery. It's okay if you don't know who the killer is in chapter 5, or 12, or 29. But, buy the end, the killer's identity had better be revealed. If the writer closed the book without doing so, because he wanted the readers to decide for themselves who the culprit was, I'd be saying to myself, "What a crock! Are you kidding me?!"

And, really, what some of you are trying to dress up as some grand design, some great artistic vision, on the part of the SV writers, is nothing more than sloppy writing, lazy planning of the arc way back in the beginning, and a last ditch attempt to get rid of it when finally, after an entire season, they admitted it wasn't working.

You just described season 3 not 4... LAst ditch effort to close up season 3 by giving us 5 minutes of random, out of nowhere ciffhangers.

Like I said... I was talking about the stones when I said "some things need to be left unknown for th viewers own interpretation" I was talking about the little things like the kryptonite in the secret chamber of the temple.

With the stones, of course this is just me, but feel as if they HAVE tied up the story. OKay if you want to technical, they didnt. But for us who have seen the first Superman and we see the Clark in THAT movie throwing the crystal into the void, we KNOW what happens. At least I do.

I understand some of you think its lazy writing and it seems as if they didnt know where they were going with the stones, but I guarantee you they KNEW they wanted the stones to lead to the FoS and then they just needed to figure out how to get there. Did they need the witch arch? No, but they needed something for Lana to be a part of, so it was THEIR decision to add that in.

You guys always see the negative, in this case Lazy writing. But what about this

Maybe its just plain HARD to write 22 HOURS of material?? I mean the average length of a movie is 2 hours long... A series on TV is 22 hours!! a little less take out commercials, but either way. Im sorry but I could NEVER write 22 hours worth of material. Thats INSANE to me. But to call them lazy is just wrong to me. If I were to sit down and try and write 22 hours worth of stuff I would never consider myself Lazy. That sounds like a LOT of work to me.

There was a quote from Al and Miles in the booklet that comes with season 3 dvd set and the quote is (not exact) "the one question we had was how the hell are we gonna come up with 22 more episode?"

Its hard guys. Every show on tv had plot holes and doesnt tie up loose ends.

The shows that DO tie up loose ends arent anywhere near as complicated as Smallville. THe CSI's and the Law and Orders" dont have intricate storylines. Hell their season finalies NEVER have cliff hangers.

Like Ive said before and I'll say from now on:

Im satisfied with the way season 4 ended and I think theyve redeemed themselves. Im very very very sorry for those who do not agree and feel as if Smallville is losing the magic. All I know is I loved it. and I guess thats all I care about..

Originally posted by Bobbythe2nd
I agree that this season was truly mishandled and couldve been written much better, however I feel that their goal was reached. The stones are united and the FOS will be created. The way they reached to the denouement was indeed sloppy but the overall goal was delivered and in my opinion, very well done. I am a little dissappointed that they couldn't make every episode like commencement but I just accept it and enjoy it. As to things being left up to the audience, I think that it is important for the audience to know certain things, especially things that change the direction of the arch; however, in my opinion the kryptonite in the chamber in sacred(which was my original discussion) was ok to be left to the audience to decide why it was there. I don't think it hurt the overall arch as much as people are making it out to be. Yea it would be nice to have a definite answer, but Im just not that picky.

exactly..

Dannyblue1

05-21-2005, 12:13 PM

Originally posted by Sydafex7
Maybe its just plain HARD to write 22 HOURS of material?? I mean the average length of a movie is 2 hours long... A series on TV is 22 hours!! a little less take out commercials, but either way. Im sorry but I could NEVER write 22 hours worth of material. Thats INSANE to me. But to call them lazy is just wrong to me. If I were to sit down and try and write 22 hours worth of stuff I would never consider myself Lazy. That sounds like a LOT of work to me.

I call them lazy because, sometimes, it seems like they just aren't trying very hard.

How hard would it have been for someone to look it up and see that, yes, Lionel does, in fact, have another son?

How hard would it have been for them to come up with a way for Jason to go evil that gelled with earlier events in the season?

That's what I mean by laziness. Yes, writing 22 episodes is hard. But every one hour drama on TV manages to do it. And, in some cases, very well. Why is it so much harder for the writers of SV?

There was a quote from Al and Miles in the booklet that comes with season 3 dvd set and the quote is (not exact) "the one question we had was how the hell are we gonna come up with 22 more episode?"

Its hard guys. Every show on tv had plot holes and doesnt tie up loose ends.

The shows that DO tie up loose ends arent anywhere near as complicated as Smallville.

The X-FILES. (The huge conspiracy that wove its way, like a spider web, through the seasons.)

Star Trek: DS9. (The Dominion War.)

BtVS. (Season 5 was actually similar to this seasons SV in many ways. A quest. Trying to keep something dangerous out of the wrong hands. )

ANGEL. (Season 4 alone defines the word complex in regards to a story arc.)

SV is in no way more complex than those shows. The only reason it seems complex is because it's so confusing. Just because something is hard to understand doesn't mean it's complex. Sometimes, it just means it wasn't "explained" well.

clarks other weakness

05-21-2005, 01:00 PM

Originally posted by Sydafex7
With the stones, of course this is just me, but feel as if they HAVE tied up the story. OKay if you want to technical, they didnt. But for us who have seen the first Superman and we see the Clark in THAT movie throwing the crystal into the void, we KNOW what happens. At least I do.

"At least I do." I'm sorry if I sound harsh or pessimistic, cause in reality, I'm not, but with this statement lies my biggest contrary view to yours. Besides judging this episode on what I alone think, I also try to view it as others would; others who havent seen (or dont remember) the movie from decades ago, or others who dont go online or in forums and discuss every detail and know everything ever there is to know about this show. What about the large group of people who just tune in every week, but dont know anything else than what the show provides? For instance, my friend who is a casual viewer (but has seen every episode) came to me the next day exlaiming "what the hell was going on with that finale?" They went on to continue with statements such as "Why in the world would he just chuck that stone into the middle of absolutely no where?" and "What about Lana and the whole witch thing just giving up the stone to Clark so easily? I thought she wanted to get all 3 stones, not give one away" and so on and so forth. So, while those of us who have seen the movies and go on these boards are, at most, assuming that it'll lead to the FoS (along with other aspects), the majority of the viewers were even more lost.

Originally posted by Sydafex7
I understand some of you think its lazy writing and it seems as if they didnt know where they were going with the stones, but I guarantee you they KNEW they wanted the stones to lead to the FoS and then they just needed to figure out how to get there. Did they need the witch arch? No, but they needed something for Lana to be a part of, so it was THEIR decision to add that in.

You guys always see the negative, in this case Lazy writing. But what about this

Maybe its just plain HARD to write 22 HOURS of material?? I mean the average length of a movie is 2 hours long... A series on TV is 22 hours!! a little less take out commercials, but either way. Im sorry but I could NEVER write 22 hours worth of material. Thats INSANE to me. But to call them lazy is just wrong to me. If I were to sit down and try and write 22 hours worth of stuff I would never consider myself Lazy. That sounds like a LOT of work to me.

There was a quote from Al and Miles in the booklet that comes with season 3 dvd set and the quote is (not exact) "the one question we had was how the hell are we gonna come up with 22 more episode?"

Its hard guys. Every show on tv had plot holes and doesnt tie up loose ends.

The shows that DO tie up loose ends arent anywhere near as complicated as Smallville. THe CSI's and the Law and Orders" dont have intricate storylines. Hell their season finalies NEVER have cliff hangers.

Like Ive said before and I'll say from now on:

Im satisfied with the way season 4 ended and I think theyve redeemed themselves. Im very very very sorry for those who do not agree and feel as if Smallville is losing the magic. All I know is I loved it. and I guess thats all I care about..

Yes, it is hard to be a writer for a TV show. But is that any excuse to have lack of continuity/bad continuity? This is TPTB's job. I respect them with all my heart for creating such a great show, but just because something is hard to do is no excuse to take the lazy way out, by not answering questions, leaving absolutely no sense of closure, and instead add more questions and confusion to the mix. Yes, I know, finales should and always will have cliffhangers. However, they are also supposed to have some sort of sense of closure, even if it be a small gesture between Clark and Chloe, just a smile before he ran off or even five more minutes truely explaining the entire meaning behind the witch arc.

This season finale should not be compared to other shows, nor to other season finales within itself to try and make Commencement look better. Instead of looking to other shows, look to itself and this fourth season. While this season has individually delivered some of the best episodes (Crusade, Transference, and even Commencement by itself), as a season (and a season finale) it was greatly lacking.

I did enjoy this episode. I really did. I am just disappointed because I saw so much potential that was far overlooked. It was a good and enjoyable episode, but at the same time it was a confusing finale to a lacking season.

Bobbythe2nd

05-21-2005, 01:18 PM

Sydafex7

05-21-2005, 02:11 PM

Originally posted by Dannyblue1
I call them lazy because, sometimes, it seems like they just aren't trying very hard.

How hard would it have been for someone to look it up and see that, yes, Lionel does, in fact, have another son?

How hard would it have been for them to come up with a way for Jason to go evil that gelled with earlier events in the season?

That's what I mean by laziness. Yes, writing 22 episodes is hard. But every one hour drama on TV manages to do it. And, in some cases, very well. Why is it so much harder for the writers of SV?

The X-FILES. (The huge conspiracy that wove its way, like a spider web, through the seasons.)

Star Trek: DS9. (The Dominion War.)

BtVS. (Season 5 was actually similar to this seasons SV in many ways. A quest. Trying to keep something dangerous out of the wrong hands. )

ANGEL. (Season 4 alone defines the word complex in regards to a story arc.)

SV is in no way more complex than those shows. The only reason

it seems complex is because it's so confusing. Just because something is hard to understand doesn't mean it's complex. Sometimes, it just means it wasn't "explained" well.

Anyways. How do you know Lucas IS NOT coming back?? Do you know something I dont?

Al and Miles said they wanted to do an episode like transference in Season 1, and they also wanted Chris Reeve in season one but they never had the chance to because the way it went just didnt give them a chance to do so. They probably have SOO many ideas for season 4 but for some reason couldnt do them. You have NO IDEA what they think and what they are planning. Instead of just writing them off, be paitent.

About Jason becoming evil. I dont see whats wrong with how they did it. To me it was pretty obvious that he sees how much time his mom has spent looking for these and how badly she wants the stones. Its obvious that after a while, Jason just lost it and went after Lionel. I'm not seeing what you are seeing. To me, he didnt all of a sudden go evil. It was a combination of things. He sees how much he alienated Lana and he also sees that shes right. He has secrets and thats not what their relationship began as. Also, dont forget Lex is the one who got him fired from his job. That also probably upset Jason a great amount and helped push him over the edge. I dont see why people think he just all of a sudden became evil. I dont see it at all and I never will. All I know is that I saw a gradual turn to the dark side.

Look at what Jor-el told Clark in Sacred. The stones would lead to greed if fallen into the wrong hands. He was right.

About "other" shows that have no problem writing 22 episodes. Your telling me that they had NO PLOT HOLES WHATSOEVER out of all of their 4 seasons on the air? That there werent any problems at all?? I highly doubt that. If thats the case, then I will admit I am wrong, but I highly doubt that.

As usual, Im sorry you feel this way, But I dont and I will continue to enjoy Smallville. Thats all I care about. I am entertained by the show and I always will be no matter what arguments are brought up. I feel sorry for those who are angry at the writers... I guess I just have a lower expectation than others. Thats good for me!!

lildave

05-21-2005, 02:16 PM

I expected alot more from the supposed 90 minute finale. You can't start the season with flying and not even touch on the subject again. Nothing was resolved in the episode. They could have utilized the previous 2 episodes to put closure on some things created during the season. Over all I felt the only way Clark does not make it to the cave with 39 seconds (probably more from the time he rips out of Lex's mansion but I'm not going back to look on my tivo) left from Lex's mansion is that it sets him up to start kicking much ass on some meteors coming down which forced him to finally figure out how to fly. If they wanted the meteors to land they should have just had Chloe pull him from the safe area after the meteors started hitting. Other than that he is sitting there taking his time as people are getting pummelled by meteors. I find that most translations for superheroes from comics to live action totally under estimate powers (I do understand that is part of the appeal of the show but this is just dragging and with showings of stuff Clark has done in the show he easily makes it to the cave). I look at it that the show is coming to a close...I haven't been reading anything on this site lately to save me from spoilers but after next year I can't see this show continuing. I would love the show to but I just don't see it. With that said I am so sick of shows taking their time to unravel plot points to just unload a
all the cool stuff (which they could have worked with instead of constantly using the...another person with powers affected by kryptonite trick). In the end, this being my favorite show around I expected alot more and the finale really once again created more questions and provided no answers. It would have been a good finale for a show like Mutant X but for this show....I have to agree with this post...the Finale Blew.

Sydafex7

05-21-2005, 02:32 PM

Originally posted by clarks other weakness

What about the large group of people who just tune in every week, but dont know anything else than what the show provides? For instance, my friend who is a casual viewer (but has seen every episode) came to me the next day exlaiming "what the hell was going on with that finale?" They went on to continue with statements such as "Why in the world would he just chuck that stone into the middle of absolutely no where?" and "What about Lana and the whole witch thing just giving up the stone to Clark so easily? I thought she wanted to get all 3 stones, not give one away" and so on and so forth. So, while those of us who have seen the movies and go on these boards are, at most, assuming that it'll lead to the FoS (along with other aspects), the majority of the viewers were even more lost.
Well even in the Superman movie when Clark throws the crystal into the void, there's no explaination why he did it. (if there was, someone correct me)

In Smallville, the stone pointed in the direction that it needed to go and so Clark threw it there.

If your friend who according to you has seen every episode, then they should know that Isobel wanted the stones, not Lana. LANA gave the stone to Clark not ISOBEL. She gave it to Clark (A) bcause she didnt trust Lex with it and (B) she said deep down she knew it was for him, but that she doesnt know why. Probably because she's finally catching on to the strange things clark does and also caught on the the fact that Clark went with her to CHina and also said "You guys go on, Im going to keep searching here" and we all saw the look Lana gave him while walking away. It was that "What is Clark up to?" look. If your Friend was as lost as you say they were, then I dont think they were paying attention.

and the finale really once again created more questions and provided no answers. It would have been a good finale for a show like Mutant X but for this show....I have to agree with this post...the Finale Blew. [/B]

How is this any different from the otehr finalies? Last season we had ONE seasonal arch, being Jonathans deal with Jor-el, and that was resolved within the first 10 minutes of the show!! Then what happens?? Out of NOWHERE Lionel sends Clark the key to Lex's Shrine which "ended" their relationship, only to have this totally dismissed in season 4 and making them friends again. Then we get Lex being poisoned which was weak as hell because we know he doesnt die and that AGAIN was dismissed in the premier. The only real Cliff hanger was Chloe's death(which if I hadnt read the spoiler that she lives then I would have been totally shocked)
and of course Clark in the Phantom Zone. season 3's finalie Blew and they realized they were going nowhere and added a bunch of out of nowhere cliffhangers that were lame as hell to try and make up for it.

But, with this finalie. We got two knew questions (lionel and his krypton eyes, and of course the gigantic ship Lana sees) and then the other main ones (the stones and the Isobel/Gertrude rivalry) were all cleaned up very nicely. I STILL Dont get the problem but I probably never will and now that i realize this, I am dropping out of this discussion and Im going to watch the finalie again because I loved it. Sorry for those who didnt..

Timester

05-21-2005, 03:39 PM

Originally posted by Sydafex7
But, with this finalie. We got two knew questions (lionel and his krypton eyes, and of course the gigantic ship Lana sees) and then the other main ones (the stones and the Isobel/Gertrude rivalry) were all cleaned up very nicely. I STILL Dont get the problem but I probably never will and now that i realize this, I am dropping out of this discussion and Im going to watch the finalie again because I loved it. Sorry for those who didnt..

Let see, Isobel created the tattoo so she could continue her quest for the stones in the future. She was a powermonger witch. She fight for the stone in China. For what? So she could stab Gertrudes' ancestor (yes, Genevieve is Gertrudes' ancestor :rolleyes: ) and then dissapears? :confused:

Like this, there are several others examples that will never be answered.

Don't you have problems with this? Smallville doesn't need to be defended from us, we are the core fans, it needs to defended from the lazy writing. Like I said, a season isn't made of standalone episodes, it's made of connection between them.

zanos

05-21-2005, 05:58 PM

Isobelle's main objective was to get those stones so she could stab GT with it so naturally she disappeared after that.

DLJ

05-21-2005, 07:16 PM

Originally posted by zanos
Isobelle's main objective was to get those stones so she could stab GT with it so naturally she disappeared after that.

Why couldn't she just stab her with a knife or a sword? :rolleyes:
You say stones, plural. If that is the case, Isobel's quest wasn't over because she only had one stone. And she had one stone for awhile so why not kill GT as soon as she had the one stone in her possession. I always thought Isobel's quest was about finding all three stones. Stupid me. :rolleyes: Since Jason was apparently in the know about all of this, and if your theory is true, then why would Jason give Lana the stone knowing that she could turn into Isobel at any time and kill both him and Gertrude. And speaking of Jason, I thought that Isobel was after Gertrude's descendants so wouldn't she be vanquished only after Jason was dead? And why would GT want the stones? Did she think that if she had the stones Isobel wouldn't kill her. And why were the stones so important to the Luthors? Oh, and that's just the Teague/Isobel storyline. I got a ton more questions.

Hence, my problem with this episode. It answered very few questions. They had an entire season long arc that they failed to tie up nicely. It's like they just decided to end it without addressing everything they set up. IMO, that is simply sloppy writing. Honestly, I probably couldn't do it better but then that's why I'm not a writer.

Some people kept promising that the finale would tie everything together, that the viewers should have faith, that all the lingering questions would be answered. But the finale simply didn't do that. And the only explanations people can come up seem to be pure speculation.

For me, this episode had more style (i.e. cool special effects) than substance. I'll take substance over style any day.

Somebody Stop Me

05-21-2005, 07:54 PM

Here is my only beef with Commencement.

I went and watched from Spell to Scared so I could get a little more background on the witch arc and tptb totally blew the witch arc bad. 1st off to have Isobel's tatoo just disappear after killing Genevieve was a terrrble mistake on the writers part and it was done ver sloppy. Isobel said in Spell and Scared that her mission was to find the "stones of power". If that's the case why did the tattoo just disappear after killing Genevieve? Cause the writing was really bad on that part of the episode. Makes me wonder if Todd and what's the other guy' name, Darrell, even watched any of the episodes. They could at least had a better closure than killing Genevieve and the tatoo just disappear.

And If Isobel was trying to kill all the ancestors of Gertrude and the curse would have been broken, why didn't she just kill Jason in China while he was chained up? What was the purpose of killing Genevieve? That wasn't her mission. That was just a compliation prize. Isobel was searching for the stones and only the stones just like everyone else.

MBCorp

05-21-2005, 08:32 PM

Yes, the witch arc made no sense whatsoever, but at least it's over now. I think the best thing to do is just to forget about making sense out of that whole thing and just concentrate on the future season, the FOS, the ship Lana found, etc. Trying to figure out the witch arc only leads to madness.:p

Although I'm still curious about who bought off those guards in China. Was that ever addressed?

MidgardDragon

05-21-2005, 08:50 PM

You guys know why the witch part was wrapped up so quickly and blatantly? Because of all the fans that complained about how they HATED the witch storyline. Obviously after hearing that kind of feedback TPTB decided to get rid of Isobel as quickly as possible.

I thought, considering the fan feedback, that getting rid of Isobel as quickly as possible was exactly what they should have done. I'm gonna bet money that half of the people complaining about Isobel disappearing are the same ones that complained about the witch storyline in the first place. Some people just can't make up their minds. :P

DLJ

05-21-2005, 09:26 PM

Originally posted by MidgardDragon
You guys know why the witch part was wrapped up so quickly and blatantly? Because of all the fans that complained about how they HATED the witch storyline. Obviously after hearing that kind of feedback TPTB decided to get rid of Isobel as quickly as possible.

I thought, considering the fan feedback, that getting rid of Isobel as quickly as possible was exactly what they should have done. I'm gonna bet money that half of the people complaining about Isobel disappearing are the same ones that complained about the witch storyline in the first place. Some people just can't make up their minds. :P

But the problem is that fans began complaining about the witch arc even BEFORE the season began (there were major complaints about tying Lana into the mythology). But instead of slowly resolving it early in the season, they kept building it and building it, only to drop it in the very last episode. I don't think their resolution of the witch arc had anything to do with appeasing fans but more to do with the fact that they simply hadn't thought it out and painted themsevles into a corner.

I've just always believed that if you commit to an idea you follow it through to resolution. I wasn't a big fan of the witch arc but I also didn't complain about it and I wanted to see a logical conclusion to it all. The shoddy writing of this storyline doesn't really make me look forward to the future writing on the series.

Sydafex7

05-21-2005, 10:17 PM

Originally posted by MBCorp
Yes, the witch arc made no sense whatsoever, but at least it's over now. I think the best thing to do is just to forget about making sense out of that whole thing and just concentrate on the future season, the FOS, the ship Lana found, etc. Trying to figure out the witch arc only leads to madness.:p

Although I'm still curious about who bought off those guards in China. Was that ever addressed?

Questions like these are the ones I like because you get to think what you want. I personally think it had to have been someone more powerful than Lex, like the guard said, which, at the time I would say GT because Lional had no money after he got out of prison and wasnt all that powerful. But then I think why would GT have her own son tortured also? Then I think well because if Lex sees that hes the only one getting tortured, it would be obvious to him that GT is the one behind it, so to keep the illusion she had her son tortured also. Who knows

You wanna know my opinion about the whole witch thing? Well if you dont sorry, Im giving it anyways :lol:

I dont like to think about it because it gives me a head ache. Okay so there are a lot of descrepincies (did I spell that right? dont know) and theres probably a lot of them. But.. to be honest
I DONT CARE It doesnt bother me. Because I know if I think about it it will NEVER make sense. So, what do I do? I just ignore the plot holes and watch the episode anyway. I let the drama, the action, the suspense and all the other good things about smallville destract me from the bad things from Smallville. I find myself enjoying the show a lot more.

Its like the Terminator Series. You know how many holes are in that?? A TON. But guess what? I love them anyways because they kick ass..

Same thing with Star Wars. There are tons especially in the new movie. I could sit down and analyze everything to the point where I am tearing my hair out and biting my nails because some things just dont make sense... and NEVER will The whole witch thing is a great example. It bothers a lot of you I know... But I guess it just takes a lot more for me to get that Pissed off at a show that I still believe is stronger than a lot of the crap on TV now, even with the lame witches and the plot holes.

Basically to some it all up, I just dont care anymore!! but again thats just me..

Now I will attempt to make sense of the whole witch thing even thiugh Ive already stated I dont really care. I just want to take a crack at it.

You got a witch named Isobel who was searching for 3 sacred artifacts that were placed on Earth by a kryptonian, waiting for the day the chosen one (clark) could unite them. Isobel wants them because she feels they will give her power and knowledge.
You have a dutch women named Gertrude who is a treasure hunter and she is also looking for the same crystals. When she finds out that Isobel is looking for them also, she burns her at the stake as a witch but she is buried as a Martyr.

Gertrude spends the next years searching for the stones. She raids the temple in China and finds nothing. she searches and finds nothing. She dies finally. Hundreds and hundreds of years past buit th story of this women is kept in the family. It finally gets to Genevieve a decendent of Gertrude and she becomes obsessed with finding them also. She travels the world bringing her son Jason with her and she does a ton of research and whatever.

Now this is where it gets tricky because Lana finds out that Isobel's tomb was moved to that Church. Why would someone move it there? I dont think we ever did find out who moved it there so yeah thats a hole but whatever, the point is, her tomb IS there and of course Lana touches the symbol and Isobel, that witch that was burnt at the stake takes over Lanas bodie because Lana happens to be a decendent of her.

Isobel has 2 missions: To find the stones and to also get revenge on Gertrude who had her burned at the stake. But, of course shes long dead so she goes after her decendent GT.

Now Jason seems to think that him meeting Lana was arranged by his GT all along. Lex furthers this theory by showing Lana pictures of GT and Jason meeting each other a day before Lana and Jason meet. WHy would she arrange for her son to meet the girl who is a direct decendent of the witch who has it out for her?
Who knows I guess thats another hole

Im not going any more because everything Ive just typed I went back and read and I tried SOOO hard to make sense of it and it JUST DOESNT. So im stopping. I tried I really did but its useless this whole witch thing makes no sense and I just DONT CARE. For some reason

I still enjoyed season 4 and the finalie... I dont know why but I did. oh well I guess Im just really weird:confused:

Originally posted by DLJ
But the problem is that fans began complaining about the witch arc even BEFORE the season began (there were major complaints about tying Lana into the mythology). But instead of slowly resolving it early in the season, they kept building it and building it, only to drop it in the very last episode. I don't think their resolution of the witch arc had anything to do with appeasing fans but more to do with the fact that they simply hadn't thought it out and painted themsevles into a corner.

I've just always believed that if you commit to an idea you follow it through to resolution. I wasn't a big fan of the witch arc but I also didn't complain about it and I wanted to see a logical conclusion to it all. The shoddy writing of this storyline doesn't really make me look forward to the future writing on the series.

I see that, I really do. But I AM looking forward to the writing for season 5 because I think next season will be much simpler. and will just be based on Clark and his destiny (hopefully bringing in the FoS will help this I cant wait for that) and also whoever was in that ship hopefully will be 2 things they build on (wether its brainiac, zod, the eradicator, or whatever) and I think those 2 things right there are more simpler than this whole witch revenge crystal thing.

zanos

05-21-2005, 10:19 PM

Originally posted by DLJ
Why couldn't she just stab her with a knife or a sword? :rolleyes:

That would be too quick. They have to drag out the Witch arc for the entire season.

You say stones, plural. If that is the case, Isobel's quest wasn't over because she only had one stone.

Two out of three is good enough.

And she had one stone for awhile so why not kill GT as soon as she had the one stone in her possession.

My first response should also answer this.

I always thought Isobel's quest was about finding all three stones. Stupid me. :rolleyes: Since Jason was apparently in the know about all of this, and if your theory is true, then why would Jason give Lana the stone knowing that she could turn into Isobel at any time and kill both him and Gertrude.

Only Isobel knows truly knows the motives behind her ingenius diabolical plans.

And speaking of Jason, I thought that Isobel was after Gertrude's descendants so wouldn't she be vanquished only after Jason was dead?

Which is why this opens the doors for her return in season 5!

For me, this episode had more style (i.e. cool special effects) than substance. I'll take substance over style any day.

If you want substance then this show is not meant for you.

Sydafex7

05-21-2005, 10:23 PM

Originally posted by zanos
That would be too quick. They have to drag out the Witch arc for the entire season.

Two out of three is good enough.

[/b]

My first response should also answer this.

[/b]

Only Isobel knows truly knows the motives behind her ingenius diabolical plans.

[/b]

Which is why this opens the doors for her return in season 5!

If you want substance then this show is not meant for you. [/B]

Lol Zanos. Thats basically it in a nutshell

If you want Substance you are watching the wrong show...

Its amazing how that one line bascially ends this entire Discussion!! Good job dood!

Martin le Magicien

05-21-2005, 11:01 PM

Originally posted by Sydafex7
Lol Zanos. Thats basically it in a nutshell

If you want Substance you are watching the wrong show...

Its amazing how that one line bascially ends this entire Discussion!! Good job dood!

Huh... Who wouldn't want substance in a show ?

To be frank, I think TPTB just want to drag any storyline they have as long as possible, because they are scare to run out of ideas. It's not cliffhangers anymore, it's just a way to be sure people will come back to watch their show, because they are not sure they will. Because pf a sloppy season.

A good writing and substance is what makes people coming back for another season, not some big cliffhanger, who will probably turn out to be nothing lasting more than one episode.

A spaceship and Clark throwing something who should built the FOS. Don't get your hopes too high guys. The stone might just create an hologram of Jor-El thanking his son for saving the planet. And the ship... maybe just a big black cloud :D

There are so many wonderful thing to do with Clark's youth. But frankly, I don't want another cliffhanger who makes me wonder if a character died or not...

ajfinn

05-21-2005, 11:20 PM

About the witch plot ... for some reason, it seems to make sense to me: Gertrude and Isobel lived in the same French town (way back when) and were enemies because they were searching for the same stones, which somehow both their families knew about. My guess is that after Gertrude had Isobel burned, she realized that she needed her knowledge about where the stones may have possibly been hidden, and so she put the body in a safe place just in case she figured out a way to bring her soul back to life and get the information she needed (perhaps Gertrude knew about the spell Isobel cast to come back to life through one of her decendents). Somehow, both families (sown through the generations) discovered that the caves in Smallville had the same symbols that were connected to the stones, and emigrated to that area--Lana's ancestors to Smallville, and the Teagues to Metropolis. Now, if this was true, GT would only have to do a modern day geneology search to discover that Isobel had a decendent that lived in Smallville, and only needed to get Lana to Paris to get her to touch Isobels tomb and hope that Isobel's soul possessed her, so GT could follow Lanabel around and see where she was searching for the stones. We never learned where Lana got the brochure for the Art school. Maybe it was sent to her through the mail (by GT), and since Lana would have been receiving college type recruiting material similar to that, GT knew it wouldn't seem suspicious. Therefore, GT took the chance that Lana would fall for it, which she did. But she still had to get Lana to Isobel's tomb, so she got Jason involved. And how did the Luthor's found out about the stones? It seems that the Luthor's and the Teagues had been keeping tabs on each other for years, so that must have been the connection. There are still plot holes, like how the tatoo left when GT was killed -- why? But it was only Lex who told Lana that Isobel wanted to hunt down the whole Teague family, so maybe he was wrong. Or maybe he just said that to freak Lana out -- we all know how much he lies to get his own purposes accomplished. My real tiff with the stone plot is that it wasn't developed right, in my opinion. There was a lot of potential there that the different sets of writers didn't seem to work together on. It seems like they all had different opinions about the history behind the stones, and wrote their own episodes to accomodate their ideas. I wish there would have been more episodes about the stones and that Clark would have been more involved with trying to locate them. He seemed much too docile this entire year, so I didn't blame Jor-el for ripping him for it. When I think back over the year, it seems like Clark didn't use his powers often enough. Everything seemed to happen TO him, and AROUND him ... he only got involved when he HAD to. Come on, powers that be, we love this guy... give us something to cheer about! :) I can't wait for next season!!!!

rx7g3n3s1s

05-21-2005, 11:26 PM

Originally posted by SnarkMasterJ
Seriously...it was sloppily handled and not very smooth...there was no continuity with any of the other episodes in the first part of the season (I mean, for the love of all that's holy, Clark acted like he didn't know the stones were meant for him -- where did THAT come from???)...there was far too much Lana and not enough Chloe (but that's subjective I guess)...

I'm not pleased at all. They'll have to do a complete 180 for me to tune in for S5. yes, might i say that you are the only one that thinks the season finale blew...

clarks other weakness

05-21-2005, 11:36 PM

Originally posted by MidgardDragon
You guys know why the witch part was wrapped up so quickly and blatantly? Because of all the fans that complained about how they HATED the witch storyline. Obviously after hearing that kind of feedback TPTB decided to get rid of Isobel as quickly as possible.

I thought, considering the fan feedback, that getting rid of Isobel as quickly as possible was exactly what they should have done. I'm gonna bet money that half of the people complaining about Isobel disappearing are the same ones that complained about the witch storyline in the first place. Some people just can't make up their minds. :P

Simply put: If TPTB are going to drag us through a long and confusing story arc, at least have the courtesy to explain it before they abruptly end it.

Also, who wouldnt want a show without substance? Sorry to sound harsh, but should we just sit and stare at all the pretty special effects rather than think about the plot and storylines of our favorite show?

Timester, you said that GT was the ancestor of Gertrude? How is that? Isn't it descendant ... ?

Somebody Stop Me

05-22-2005, 02:20 AM

Would you believe that Jane Seymore said the same thing in one of the episodes. I thought to my self "why didn't anybody bother to do that scene over and tell her that she made a mistake".

Timester

05-22-2005, 03:55 AM

Originally posted by Somebody Stop Me
Would you believe that Jane Seymore said the same thing in one of the episodes. I thought to my self "why didn't anybody bother to do that scene over and tell her that she made a mistake".

That's why I said Genevieve were Gertrude's ancestor. :p

Originally posted by Sydafex7
Lol Zanos. Thats basically it in a nutshell

If you want Substance you are watching the wrong show...

Its amazing how that one line bascially ends this entire Discussion!! Good job dood!

He was being sarcastic. ;)

By the way, the new Star Wars do make sense, the Clone Wars answer to the plot holes (although I don't like this strategy).

Originally posted by Sydafex7
I dont like to think about it because it gives me a head ache. Okay so there are a lot of descrepincies (did I spell that right? dont know) and theres probably a lot of them. But.. to be honest
I DONT CARE It doesnt bother me. Because I know if I think about it it will NEVER make sense. So, what do I do? I just ignore the plot holes and watch the episode anyway. I let the drama, the action, the suspense and all the other good things about smallville destract me from the bad things from Smallville. I find myself enjoying the show a lot more.

Well, but you aren't the only viewer of Smallville. You might not care, but we care, and caring is not a bad thing, it's a good thing. By the end, we care about Smallville and want it to be the best. Give me a reason why it shouldn't.

Bobbythe2nd

05-22-2005, 10:25 AM

I think the Witch Arc was alright. I think that Isobel didn't know that killing GT with the stone would make her have to leave Lana's body (forever?). I just think everything happened so quickly that she just picked up anything sharp to kill her. Yes she did get revenge for being Gertrudes descendant......Regarding the "Why would GT go after a descendant of Isobel?", I think that she probably just wanted to keep an eye out on her. Or maybe she would think that Lana could find the stones with the help of Isobel and she would lead her to them....? Im not sure what the writers were thinking but I think they were on the right track with the witch arc but somehow messed it up along the way....Just be happy its over:)

Somebody Stop Me

05-22-2005, 10:43 AM

Originally posted by Timester
That's why I said Genevieve were Gertrude's ancestor. :p

You got it bass ackwards dude. Genevieve is a decendent of Gerturde's, not an ancestor.

Originally posted by Timester

By the way, the new Star Wars do make sense, the Clone Wars answer to the plot holes (although I don't like this strategy).

OK corrections you mean the new Star Wars does make sense.

Sydafex7

05-22-2005, 01:12 PM

Originally posted by Timester
That's why I said Genevieve were Gertrude's ancestor. :p

He was being sarcastic. ;)

By the way, the new Star Wars do make sense, the Clone Wars answer to the plot holes (although I don't like this strategy).

Well, but you aren't the only viewer of Smallville. You might not care, but we care, and caring is not a bad thing, it's a good thing. By the end, we care about Smallville and want it to be the best. Give me a reason why it shouldn't.

Thats the thing. I Think Smallville IS the best, Even with the holes in it.

When I said I didnt care, I was talking about the witch plot. I DONT CARE about that.

I didnt say I dont care about Smallville, I said I dont care about the plot holes.

Oh and sure, Star Wars makes sense in Lucas' mind, but not to the star wars nuts (im not one of them) who have read the books also and know everything about everything star wars. I work at a comic store and I got people coming in ll the time trying to explain to me all of these things that arent right in the movies. I dont understand them, but I know a lot of people who say there are holes. I have even read a bunch of reviews online that say there are little things that just dont make sense.

I dont know what these are so dont ask me to name them, I dont know. I just know what I have read on the internet and what die hard star wars nuts have tried to explan to me.

anyways, thats off the subject.

Oh so since he was being sarcastic he really believes that Smallville HAS substance and it IS the show to watch if you want substance? If he was being sarcastic he failed miserably. Besides how do you know? did he say he was?

Chesay

05-22-2005, 01:26 PM

If the show wants to present sloppy, slipshod work they can do so, and certainly have in many instances this season. They have also had excellent episodes of outstanding quality, so you know the potential is there. My point is, you owe it to yourself to do everything possible to present the show without loose ends, inconsistencies, and plotholes which are not intentional to the story you are presenting. Proofreading, fact checking, and running it by someone who is knowledgable but not as close to it as you are helps find such flaws so they can be eliminated. Even then some are sure to slip by but you know you at least made an honest effort. That constitutes quality work one can take pride in doing. It is not fun, it is time consuming and often frustrating, but the final quality is worth the effort. Fans do them a service to demand the best they have to offer, for their sake as well as for the show's.

How can they build suspense with clues and subtle hints for you to find when there are so many flaws and plot holes as well? Then to cover the blunders and let the fans think they were deliberate is just cowardly. If every episode was shoddy I would not complain because it was obviously the best they could do, but when you have had excellence you feel that should be the goal every time even if you try and miss the mark a bit.

This was not so much a problem with the first three seasons, but season four has been epidemic with flaws, inconsistencies, and plot holes that have distracted detail viewers from the essence of the show. Fans cannot be blamed for this, especially when they are trying to point out the weaknesses they find in hopes they will be corrected. This is a great series that deserves the best all of us have to give it.

Sydafex7

05-22-2005, 02:52 PM

Well said.

I don't think anyone has a problem with this episode as a stand alone smallville episode. Peoples problem with it is how it ties in to the overall season.

You said it yourself, Smallville has had excellent episodes: "Rosetta", "Shattered" "Exile" "Lineage", but even those great episodes have flaws in them.

Your right, it seems as if they don't get anyone to proof read the scripts before being accepted and it seems as if they are being sloppy and careless with their writing. I do know that a lot of the original writers from the first 2 seasons (the seasons that make the most sense to me) have left and a lot of new writers have come in. For all we know, They are working on this writing problem as we speak and next season will be better.

All I know, is that the with plot makes enough sense to me for me to enjoy it. Sure, theirs inconsistencies in it and things that don't make sense, but for the most part it makes enough sense for me to enjoy it.

DO you think the characters themselves know why the marking on Lana's back disappeared? I doubt it. I doubt Lana even understand how it was possible for a witch to possess her in the first place. UI doubt she understands why Isobel didn't come out in the Talon the day that she met GT if she wanted to kill her so bad. I doubt Lana, Clark, Jason, GT, Lex, Lionel, THe Kents, or CHloe understand any of this stuff.

If they don't understand it, then well I don't need to understand it.

How come the marking can't just disappear without a reason? Why does that need an explanation?

Like I said, if it doesn't make sense to the people who its actually happening to, then me, as the person watching and observing this stuff, doesn't need to know.

Take this conversation between Lex and Mr. Kent in "Reaper" in regards to how he survived the car wreck in the pilot.

Lex: Dont you ever wonder why weird things like that happen?
Mr Kent: No, lex, I just accept the fact that they do.

I think I'm gonna do the same think when it comes to the whole witch incident.

but thats just me.

Lucy

05-22-2005, 03:05 PM

I thought it was good! it should definetly leave fans in suspence this summer! it was a pretty big shocker that there was another meteor shower, i figured clark would save the day again, but he didn't this time.

binkys711

05-22-2005, 08:19 PM

yep best episode this season and maybe the biggest cliffhanger smallville has ever seen!DAMN IT!!!!!I WANT TO SEE WHAT HAPPENS SOONER!!!

oh and by the way good point chesay!your right!you should demand excellence on yourself and of your work!and it is okay that somethings slip it happens to all of us, but they also don't let it go like if it was "oh well""nobody noticed just continue"because people DO notice!, they should try to not make the same mistake twice or maybe try to correct it! not continue like if nothing happened!

Timester

05-23-2005, 05:22 AM

Originally posted by Somebody Stop Me
You got it bass ackwards dude. Genevieve is a decendent of Gerturde's, not an ancestor.

The :p stick at the end usually means something. Also, Genevieve said she was Gertrudes' ancestor, not I. :p

Originally posted by Chesay
If the show wants to present sloppy, slipshod work they can do so, and certainly have in many instances this season. They have also had excellent episodes of outstanding quality, so you know the potential is there. My point is, you owe it to yourself to do everything possible to present the show without loose ends, inconsistencies, and plotholes which are not intentional to the story you are presenting. Proofreading, fact checking, and running it by someone who is knowledgable but not as close to it as you are helps find such flaws so they can be eliminated. Even then some are sure to slip by but you know you at least made an honest effort. That constitutes quality work one can take pride in doing. It is not fun, it is time consuming and often frustrating, but the final quality is worth the effort. Fans do them a service to demand the best they have to offer, for their sake as well as for the show's.

How can they build suspense with clues and subtle hints for you to find when there are so many flaws and plot holes as well? Then to cover the blunders and let the fans think they were deliberate is just cowardly. If every episode was shoddy I would not complain because it was obviously the best they could do, but when you have had excellence you feel that should be the goal every time even if you try and miss the mark a bit.

This was not so much a problem with the first three seasons, but season four has been epidemic with flaws, inconsistencies, and plot holes that have distracted detail viewers from the essence of the show. Fans cannot be blamed for this, especially when they are trying to point out the weaknesses they find in hopes they will be corrected. This is a great series that deserves the best all of us have to give it.

That is what I'm trying to say. WORD.

Originally posted by Sydafex7
Thats the thing. I Think Smallville IS the best, Even with the holes in it.

Then way the ratings fall this season? You might think is the best, but others not. And that's the problem with everything. We criticize because we know that Smallville's potential is way bigger. Certainly isn't bad asking an even better Smallville, quite the opposite. We aren't fanboys that close the eyes to the problems, nor we shouldn't.

Somebody Stop Me

05-23-2005, 06:51 AM

One thing I can say is that Commencement was better than the season ender on Desperate Housewifes even if they did screw up the witch arc.

Jellie

05-23-2005, 06:56 AM

I will keep it short as usual. I thought commencement was brilliant top marks.

dwgebler

05-23-2005, 07:07 AM

I've noticed many people in this thread using phrases along the lines of 'no continuity' and 'didn't flow'
Very few of these have by substantiated by example - not saying those of you who used phrases like those above are necessarily wrong, I'd just like to know what elements of Season 4 led you to saying this.

"The whole stones story was ridiculous. After a whole season of pointless intrigue about who had what stone, Clark gets one of them handed to him, and the other one calls out to him, and he goes and gets it. That's some quest. "Clark, this is the moment we've raised you for." Huh? You spent the past 18 years raising him so he could get some stones?"

I agree that a good bit of season 4's focus on the stones was seemingly wasted through Clark getting hold of the last two so easily. I think a lot of us were disappointed with this particular element of the season as a whole. Clark getting the stones in the finale seemed a bit of an anti-climax on that whole story arc to me. In the last statement of the above paragraph, I think that's a very shallow interpretation of the scene you're referring to. JK wasn't saying to Clark that he had raised him to "get some stones", it was more to do with the fact that Clark could have been in great danger and possibly killed by staying behind in SV for the meteors (until they started crashing, the Kents didn't know whether the rocks would be laced with Green K or not and neither did Clark) and about how he is supposed to make the 'big decision' on his own this time, even against his parents' fears.

"The Luthor storyline was pretty underwhelming to. Do we get any sort of closure on the whole "is Lionel good/is he bad" storyline? Was he pretending to be good? No, I guess he really was good, but Lex yelled at him, so now he's bad again. Why exactly did Genevive Teague free him from prison again? Why are they all so obsessed with these stones? What does Countess Isabelle Thoreaux have to do with all of this? Does Lex even still work at Luthorcorp, or does he just sit in his office and think about the stones all day?"

Was Lionel genuinely 'good' for a while? I don't think anyone can be objectively or even subjectively sure on that. We'll have to wait and see if more on that is revealed next season, or if it's one of those things they will sweep under the rug, like Lex's kidney failure. On the front of sweeping things under the rug, I think some of you are too hard on the writers, who, in all fairness, have to try and keep as much continuity as possible whilst having not planned out all episodes of all six/eight/whatever seasons of SV in perfect detail and you can't expect EVERYTHING to add up properly. An imperfection, yes, but one I can forgive because SV is still a great show when it comes down to it. Even the people that regularly berate every episode on these forums still continue to watch it, therefore they must be getting something out of it.

Again with GT getting Lionel out of jail, one would assume that it was because she thought she would get one of the stones out of it, but you're right in saying this had not been made clear in the episodes.

Why are they obsessed with the stones? Because they lead to 'the knowledge of the universe', we've been told.

Countess Isobel (or at least her, through her own descendants) was destined to kill the descendants of those who killed her in medieval France, i.e. GT. Now Isobel/Lana has done this, the Isobel mark disappears from Lana. This WAS made clear in episodes of S4.

And yes, as far as I can tell, Lex runs Luthorcorp now. That may mean he does little more than ponder the stones in his office, but I think you'd complain even more if episodes were spent showing Lex doing corporate paperwork or discussing tax with his accountants.

"And why was Clark so slow getting those stones together? Jor El told him he couldn't stop the meteor shower from coming no matter what. Maybe instead of taking the stones and standing in the cave chamber for ten minutes before he puts the stone in the slot, he should go out and help people evacuate? Save his parents from Jason? Save Chloe, who saved his life, from Lex? Save Lana? No, let's have our hero stand in a cave for ten minutes, save one little boy, lie on the floor for ten minutes, stand in the cave for another ten minutes, then go to the North Pole. Exciting! Let's have Jason wave a gun at the Kents for the entire episode with absolutely no purpose at all. What point exactly did that serve to the story? Why did they wait until the meteors started falling to evacuate Lana? What's in that room with Mxyzptlk? "

"What's in that room with Mxyzptlk?" Good question - no one knows and I'm not sure what the overall relevance of that scene was. Hopefully that's one thing they're not planning to sweep away next season. The rest of the above paragraph, to put it simply, I disagree. I think Clark was clearly uncertain of what putting the stones together would do and Jason did have a purpose for holding the Kents at gunpoint. But I can't really be bothered to elaborate on that one. Sorry.

Dannyblue1

05-23-2005, 07:50 AM

Originally posted by dwgebler
I've noticed many people in this thread using phrases along the lines of 'no continuity' and 'didn't flow'
Very few of these have by substantiated by example - not saying those of you who used phrases like those above are necessarily wrong, I'd just like to know what elements of Season 4 led you to saying this.

Well, there's a difference between "bad continuity" and "a lack of continuity". Bad continuity is an outright mistake or contradiction. Like, in "Transference", everyone seemed to forget that Lionel had another living son. Never mind that they'd all met Lucas, he was the "star" of an entire episode...not to mention I doubt Lionel would forget having another child.

Jason's whole story arc is another example of bad continuity. They could have had him going evil without contradicting things that happened earlier in the season. Instead, they chose to, I don't know, forget that those private conversations between Jason and his mother happened onscreen by insisting he was working for her, and doing her bidding, all along. That he always knew what was going on when, earlier this season, he seemed genuinely clueless.

Clark's and Lex's relationship also had bad continuity. One ep, tensions would be high between them. The next, they'd be the best of pals, smiling and chatting like nothing was wrong. The next, the animosity would be back. And don't say we don't know what happened between them offscreen. According to the producers, their friendship is one of the show's major themes. You think it would be very important (and dramatic) to show what caused these magical ups and downs in their friendship.

Jonathan's various injuries are an example of poor continuity. He gets shot in the leg one episode, and isn't even limping the next episode. (Even if weeks had passed, you'd still expect the leg to be sore or something, but he seemed perfectly fine.)

Alicia is another example of poor continuity. Clark supposedly had strong feelings for her. Yet, the episode after she died, there isn't even a hint that Alicia ever existed. In fact, if you missed those eps, you'd never know Clark had undergone a major trauma.

And I could go on.

Somebody Stop Me

05-23-2005, 12:30 PM

Originally posted by dwgebler
Countess Isobel (or at least her, through her own descendants) was destined to kill the descendants of those who killed her in medieval France, i.e. GT. Now Isobel/Lana has done this, the Isobel mark disappears from Lana. This WAS made clear in episodes of S4.

I'm sorry your wrong. I went back and watched episodes "Spell" and "Scared" and all the epiosdes in between and her sole mission was to get the "stones of power". So I would say your wrong. And if she were to kill all the decendents of Gertrude, why didn't she just kill Jason in China while he was changed up?

Originally posted by Dannyblue1
Alicia is another example of poor continuity. Clark supposedly had strong feelings for her. Yet, the episode after she died, there isn't even a hint that Alicia ever existed. In fact, if you missed those eps, you'd never know Clark had undergone a major trauma.

And I could go on.

The problem I had with Alicia dieing was that she could have easily teleported away from that dude easily.

Speaking on Pariah, it was one of my favorite episodes of the season.

dwgebler

05-23-2005, 05:14 PM

"I'm sorry your wrong. I went back and watched episodes "Spell" and "Scared" and all the epiosdes in between and her sole mission was to get the "stones of power". So I would say your wrong. And if she were to kill all the decendents of Gertrude, why didn't she just kill Jason in China while he was changed up?"

You went back and watched all those episodes again just to respond to one post? Wow :)
On the front of your response, I was pretty sure that it was mentioned at least twice that Isobel vowed to avenge her burning at the stake by killing the descendants, as I said. You say this is not actually the case, you might be right; I have not watched the episodes in question recently enough to be 100% certain. I don't have those episodes on any sort of recording, so I'll have to take your word on the matter. I wouldn't have said it if I didn't think it was true, but of course I could be remembering wrong. Can anyone else who has the episodes recorded verify?

Also, if I'm wrong, why did the mark of Isobel disappear from Lana's back when she killed GT?

Bobbythe2nd

05-23-2005, 05:16 PM

Originally posted by dwgebler

You went back and watched all those episodes again just to respond to one post? Wow :)
On the front of your response, I was pretty sure that it was mentioned at least twice that Isobel vowed to avenge her burning at the stake by killing the descendants, as I said. You say this is not actually the case, you might be right; I have not watched the episodes in question recently enough to be 100% certain. I don't have those episodes on any sort of recording, so I'll have to take your word on the matter. I wouldn't have said it if I didn't think it was true, but of course I could be remembering wrong. Can anyone else who has the episodes recorded verify?

Also, if I'm wrong, why did the mark of Isobel disappear from Lana's back when she killed GT?

I havent watched the episode spell since it aired but I believe one of her missions was to indeed get all the stones but she really wanted to avenge her death and kill any descendants of Gertrude.

dwgebler

05-23-2005, 05:21 PM

Originally posted by Dannyblue1
Well, there's a difference between "bad continuity" and "a lack of continuity".

Yes, on the front of BAD rather than a LACK of continuity, I wholly agree with the examples you gave and several more like them. They can get away with brushing SOME things aside on the basis of time passing and events happening between episodes, but Alicia was the prime example to me of taking it too far. Clark declared he loved her in Pariah, and yet, as you say, no sign of this next episode or ever again in the season.

Originally posted by Bobbythe2nd
I havent watched the episode spell since it aired but I believe one of her missions was to indeed get all the stones but she really wanted to avenge her death and kill any descendants of Gertrude.

I don't disagree that Isobel was after the stones, I'm asking wasn't it the case that she also wanted, as part of her primary mission, to kill Gertrude's descendants to avenge her own death?

Bobbythe2nd

05-23-2005, 05:47 PM

Originally posted by dwgebler

I don't disagree that Isobel was after the stones, I'm asking wasn't it the case that she also wanted, as part of her primary mission, to kill Gertrude's descendants to avenge her own death?

Yes...I was agreeing with you ;)
Thats why I feel as if the way the witch arc came to an end was an acceptable one.....was it the best way to end it?...I don't think so, but it is definitely believable.

Somebody Stop Me

05-23-2005, 09:46 PM

Well I have watched it last Saturday and yes she did throw Jason out the window of the Talon but Clark saved him. But the only reason she did that is when she got home from Clarks big party and found him going through her spell book. Which leads me to more even more questions but that's for another thread.

Sydafex7

05-23-2005, 10:31 PM

Originally posted by Dannyblue1
Well, there's a difference between "bad continuity" and "a lack of continuity". Bad continuity is an outright mistake or contradiction. Like, in "Transference", everyone seemed to forget that Lionel had another living son. Never mind that they'd all met Lucas, he was the "star" of an entire episode...not to mention I doubt Lionel would forget having another child.

Jason's whole story arc is another example of bad continuity. They could have had him going evil without contradicting things that happened earlier in the season. Instead, they chose to, I don't know, forget that those private conversations between Jason and his mother happened onscreen by insisting he was working for her, and doing her bidding, all along. That he always knew what was going on when, earlier this season, he seemed genuinely clueless.

Clark's and Lex's relationship also had bad continuity. One ep, tensions would be high between them. The next, they'd be the best of pals, smiling and chatting like nothing was wrong. The next, the animosity would be back. And don't say we don't know what happened between them offscreen. According to the producers, their friendship is one of the show's major themes. You think it would be very important (and dramatic) to show what caused these magical ups and downs in their friendship.

Jonathan's various injuries are an example of poor continuity. He gets shot in the leg one episode, and isn't even limping the next episode. (Even if weeks had passed, you'd still expect the leg to be sore or something, but he seemed perfectly fine.)

Alicia is another example of poor continuity. Clark supposedly had strong feelings for her. Yet, the episode after she died, there isn't even a hint that Alicia ever existed. In fact, if you missed those eps, you'd never know Clark had undergone a major trauma.

And I could go on.

Clark and Lex's relationship has NOT had bad continuity. Let me explain why.

You say some episodes tensions are high between them, others, they are friends. Sure, they mayact like each others friends, but come on, we KNOW lex doesnt trust clark, we KNOW he thinks Clark knows a lot more than hes telling. We also know that Clark doesnt trust Lex either. Ever since last seasons finalie when he found out Lex had been investigating him STILL after he said he had stopped, Clark will never trust lex fully again.

Even though they "acted" like friends around each other, I got the impression that it was just that, an act. each one whats the other to think they are still friends and they trust each other, when in fact, neither one trust each other. I thought this was made very clear.

For example. in "Blank" when Clark sees Lex leaving the barn after taking the map, he says "Oh I just came by to see how you were doing" if thats the case, why did he say that one thing and then not even ask how he was? he just gets in his car to leave. Then Clark says "Chloe said she dropped me off to talk to you when I had no memory... what did we talk about?" The way Tom delivered this line clearly showed that Clark was very weary of this and doesnt trust Lex's answer to that question.

Now, in Ageless, we see Clark and Lex actually have a friendly convo, and there didnt seem to be any undertones. Well, I still believe that Clark and LEx were being friendly just to be friendly, to keep each other at bay and make the other seem they are still friends, even though they both really dont trust each other.

Then way the ratings fall this season? You might think is the best, but others not. And that's the problem with everything. We criticize because we know that Smallville's potential is way bigger. Certainly isn't bad asking an even better Smallville, quite the opposite. We aren't fanboys that close the eyes to the problems, nor we shouldn't.

Timester, I dont care about rating, and I dont really care about what others think.

I think smallville is the best show on TV right now. ME, I think that. I dont care what you think, I dont care what other reviewers think. I dont care what the ratings say, especially since Smallville was up against the biggest shows on EACH MAJOR network. The WB is NOT a major network. Smallvile is the WB's highest rated show. Their strategy was to put their highest rated show up against the ohter highest rated shows of the MAJOR networks, ABC, NBC, FOX. This means Lost and American Idol and all of those other shows. It was not a good strategy because lets face it, ABC and Fox are morewatched than the WB AND the above mentioned shows get way more publicity than Smallville. OF course its going to get trounced.

But see, none of that Matters to me. "Then why the bad ratings?" you say, well to you, that means because it had bad writing, to me, it means that they have hard competiton.

Look at it this way.. If they were to Put Smallville on Tuesdays, where there is no Lost and also less popular main stream shows, it would be much higher rated, its not rocket science to see that.

Ratings mean ****.

I like SMallville, and I think its the best show on television right now, Its a matter of opinion and taste. You cant say anything to prove that sentence wrong. its MY opinion. I could care less what you think. At the end of the day, all that matters is that I like Smallville and I will watch it until it goes off the air.

Smallville had "enough" continuity for me to enjoy it. Enough for me to understand the story. thats all I care about.

Originally posted by dwgebler
[B]Yes, on the front of BAD rather than a LACK of continuity, I wholly agree with the examples you gave and several more like them. They can get away with brushing SOME things aside on the basis of time passing and events happening between episodes, but Alicia was the prime example to me of taking it too far. Clark declared he loved her in Pariah, and yet, as you say, no sign of this next episode or ever again in the season.

I didnt mind it too much. We have no idea how much time was in between Pariah and Recruit. I think metioning some things from the previous episode in the next episode canbecome pretty cheesy.

For example. In Rvenge of the Sith, Palpatine is like "remember when you told me about how you killed those women and children to save your mom?" That is showing continuity, but come on, revenge of the sith happens TWO years after episode 2! That was a long time ago. I can see him bringing it up if it was like a couple weeks earlier, but that was giving continuity, just for the sake of continuity, which I find very very very forced

Force continuity is something I dont think is very good. It doesnt need to be SHOVED down our throats. To bring up Alicia in that first scene in Recruit would seem just that, forced.

Now, if Recruit was meant to take place like the next day, okay I could see where people may be a little upset she wasnt mentioned, but maybe it was like 2 weeks later, or maybe even 3 weeks later. Why not just assume Clark has done some thinking about it.

WHy do the writers have to mention EVERY SINGLE THING in past episodes? Okay sure, Alicia was a major thing, but either way. ]

Then again, some of the stuff that bothers you guys just DOESNT bother me. I dont know. I guess Im just weird. Or maybe I just like crappy TV!!

Arista 07

05-23-2005, 10:48 PM

Originally posted by Sydafex7
Clark and Lex's relationship has NOT had bad continuity. Let me explain why.

You say some episodes tensions are high between them, others, they are friends. Sure, they mayact like each others friends, but come on, we KNOW lex doesnt trust clark, we KNOW he thinks Clark knows a lot more than hes telling. We also know that Clark doesnt trust Lex either. Ever since last seasons finalie when he found out Lex had been investigating him STILL after he said he had stopped, Clark will never trust lex fully again.

Even though they "acted" like friends around each other, I got the impression that it was just that, an act. each one whats the other to think they are still friends and they trust each other, when in fact, neither one trust each other. I thought this was made very clear.

For example. in "Blank" when Clark sees Lex leaving the barn after taking the map, he says "Oh I just came by to see how you were doing" if thats the case, why did he say that one thing and then not even ask how he was? he just gets in his car to leave. Then Clark says "Chloe said she dropped me off to talk to you when I had no memory... what did we talk about?" The way Tom delivered this line clearly showed that Clark was very weary of this and doesnt trust Lex's answer to that question.

Now, in Ageless, we see Clark and Lex actually have a friendly convo, and there didnt seem to be any undertones. Well, I still believe that Clark and LEx were being friendly just to be friendly, to keep each other at bay and make the other seem they are still friends, even though they both really dont trust each other.
I can't quite grasp what you're attempting to convey in your last paragraph. You are cited a scene in Blank that you feel is loaded with obvious animosity and undertones. (We're in agreement, there.) I may be interpreting this wrong, but I believe that example was given as basis for your deduction that Clark and Lex are merely putting on a cordial act. Yet you refer to Ageless wherein you claim, there were no undertones to Clark and Lex's conversation. However, you still choose to believe that Clark and Lex are just "making nice." Why? Not only is that contradictory, but (IMHO) it seems you are making excuses for lack of continuity between the two characters, badly conceived excuses.

Also, just in the sake of friendly arguement, isn't the writers' job to show us the deterioration of Clark and Lex's friendship. How is that ever to be displayed if their true feelings remain concealed, as you say they are?

Timester, I dont care about rating, and I dont really care about what others think.

I think smallville is the best show on TV right now. ME, I think that. I dont care what you think, I dont care what other reviewers think. I dont care what the ratings say, especially since Smallville was up against the biggest shows on EACH MAJOR network. The WB is NOT a major network. Smallvile is the WB's highest rated show. Their strategy was to put their highest rated show up against the ohter highest rated shows of the MAJOR networks, ABC, NBC, FOX. This means Lost and American Idol and all of those other shows. It was not a good strategy because lets face it, ABC and Fox are morewatched than the WB AND the above mentioned shows get way more publicity than Smallville. OF course its going to get trounced.

But see, none of that Matters to me. "Then why the bad ratings?" you say, well to you, that means because it had bad writing, to me, it means that they have hard competiton.

Look at it this way.. If they were to Put Smallville on Tuesdays, where there is no Lost and also less popular main stream shows, it would be much higher rated, its not rocket science to see that.

Ratings mean ****.

I like SMallville, and I think its the best show on television right now, Its a matter of opinion and taste. You cant say anything to prove that sentence wrong. its MY opinion. I could care less what you think. At the end of the day, all that matters is that I like Smallville and I will watch it until it goes off the air.

Smallville had "enough" continuity for me to enjoy it. Enough for me to understand the story. thats all I care about.
Seeing that claim made over and over has grown so redundant. Was the hostility necessary, really? I hope you don't feel the need to defend your affinity for Smallville. Obviously, everyone here watches as well. Still, the defensive tone was unnecessary.

Smallville is the WB's fifth highest rated show. I'm certain that doesn't mean much to you seeing as "ratings me ****." Still, if you are going to credit Smallville, at the very least have your ratings correct. Also, I will quite simply add, if Smallville cannot maintain the ratings received within this season's first cycle (The show has lost around 1.5 mil. viewers total this year.), there is something very wrong with the writing. There is no other explanation.

Sydafex7

05-23-2005, 10:51 PM

We aren't fanboys that close the eyes to the problems, nor we shouldn't. [/B]

I dont close my eyes to the 'problems' because I dont believe there are any problems. i believe smallville is fine the way it is. I could care less what anyone else thinks.

Theres obviously something the people who b.itch every week about the show like about it, or they wouldnt still be watching it.

Its like "Oh smallville made no sense this season, and I really didnt like season 4 at all but, I still watched every episode!!" give me a break.

Arista 07

05-23-2005, 10:55 PM

Originally posted by Sydafex7
I dont close my eyes to the 'problems' because I dont believe there are any problems. i believe smallville is fine the way it is. I could care less what anyone else thinks.
If that is truly the case, then why are you here, in this thread? You could care less what anyone else thinks; yet, you're making an effort to defend Smallville and you're affinity towards it?

:rolleyes:

Sydafex7

05-23-2005, 11:03 PM

Originally posted by Arista 07
I can't quite grasp what you're attempting to convey in your last paragraph. You are cited a scene in Blank that you feel is loaded with obvious animosity and undertones. (We're in agreement, there.) I may be interpreting this wrong, but I believe that example was given as basis for your deduction that Clark and Lex are merely putting on a cordial act. Yet you refer to Ageless wherein you claim, there were no undertones to Clark and Lex's conversation. However, you still choose to believe that Clark and Lex are just "making nice." Why? Not only is that contradictory, but (IMHO) it seems you are making excuses for lack of continuity between the two characters, badly conceived excuses.

Also, just in the sake of friendly arguement, isn't the writers' job to show us the deterioration of Clark and Lex's friendship. How is that ever to be displayed if their true feelings remain concealed, as you say they are?

Seeing that claim made over and over has grown so redundant. Was the hostility necessary, really? I hope you don't feel the need to defend your affinity for Smallville. Obviously, everyone here watches as well. Still, the defensive tone was unnecessary.

Smallville is the WB's fifth highest rated show. I'm certain that doesn't mean much to you seeing as "ratings me ****." Still, if you are going to credit Smallville, at the very least have your ratings correct. Also, I will quite simply add, if Smallville cannot maintain the ratings received within this season's first cycle (The show has lost around 1.5 mil. viewers total this year.), there is something very wrong with the writing. There is no other explanation.

I took the defensive tone because Timester always takes offensive tones with me. I'm just doing what he does.

Also, sorry about my facts your right. I apologize and thanks for correcting me.

With that being said, I still dont think rating mean anything. I think my example about what would happen if they moved it to another day was a very good example. You think if they pitted smallville up against lesser known shows and also, shows that arent as well recieved, it STILL would do bad for that day and that time slot? I dont think so. If you do, then, i gues sits just matter of opinion. whatever

I obviously didnt explain my whole lex and clark "playing nice" explaination very well. Let me try again.

I think for the most part, I am right. they do play nice because they dont trust each other, but they want the other to think they do. My example about Blank was a good one for that.

My ageless example was not however, you are right. what I meant was that yes, sometimes they do seem to be a little to buddy buddy when in previus episodes those undertones are present. But, I think these undertones only seem to come out when one thinks the other is being un truthful, as in Blank. IN ageless, there is no need for those undertones, because nothing they were talking about dealt with the trust issue. They LEx simply said someday you will make a good father. Clark responded with "so will you lex" nothing there calls for undertones. They are having a simple conversation.

If that still doesnt make sense, then Im sorry.. I tried

Originally posted by Arista 07
If that is truly the case, then why are you here, in this thread? You could care less what anyone else thinks; yet, you're making an effort to defend Smallville and you're affinity towards it?

:rolleyes:

what I dont care about is if others think it has problems. that doesnt mean I'm not going to try to get people see my P.O.V, which no one seems to understand. I think its probably because Im not the best at getting my points across on forums, because its hard for me to explain things sometimes on here.

But, you know what you are right. Why do I try and defend the show if I know it's not going to help? you are absolutely right... so I am no longer going to reply to any replies to my opinions. I will say my opinion and then thats that. no arguing or discussing anymore because like you said, if I dont care like I claim? why do I constantly defend it. Absolutely right!

Sometimes, timester, I feel as if you click ony my profile, look at what threads Ive posted in, and just completely try and disprove me. Its like, every thing I say, you have some comment to make and its in every single thread I post in but oh well.. Im probably just paranoid...

Arista 07

05-23-2005, 11:11 PM

Originally posted by Sydafex7
My ageless example was not however, you are right. what I meant was that yes, sometimes they do seem to be a little to buddy buddy when in previus episodes those undertones are present. But, I think these undertones only seem to come out when one thinks the other is being un truthful, as in Blank. IN ageless, there is no need for those undertones, because nothing they were talking about dealt with the trust issue. They LEx simply said someday you will make a good father. Clark responded with "so will you lex" nothing there calls for undertones. They are having a simple conversation.
Ageless followed Blank, did it not? You just gave an indication of bad continuity. Stuff like that, despite the "simple" conversation, should carry over.

your right. this will be my last post. goodbye k site!! :D
Buh-bye! :D

Sydafex7

05-23-2005, 11:16 PM

Originally posted by Arista 07
Ageless followed Blank, did it not? You just gave an indication of bad continuity. Stuff like that, despite the "simple" conversation, should carry over.

Buh-bye! :D

okay Im sorry I lied.

I dont understand what was wrong with whatI said?
Ageless following blank has nothing to do with what I said..
It doesnt matter which one of those came first.

THe "undertones" dont need to be in every single conversation, only when they are necessary, as in Blank. The undertones arent necessary in Ageless. It wasnt necessary for Clark to show hostility towards Lex's comment in Ageless because Lex's comment wasnt deserving of it. all he said was " You will be a good father some day Clark". That means, in order to show good continuity, Clark needs to say some mean spirited comment to lex back? Why?

I will quit posting after this convo we are having, because I dont understand why its so difficult to undertstand my point.

Arista 07

05-23-2005, 11:27 PM

Originally posted by Syndafex7
I dont understand what was wrong with that I said?
Ageless following blank has nothing to do with what I said..
It doesnt matter which one of those came first.
It does, on both accounts.

We are discussing continuity, that is scnene-to-scene, episode-to-episode consistency between the events that occur throughout the season. When an event like Lex stealing from Clark happens, and uneasiness is exchanged between the both of them, that animosity is should be carried over into the next episode. That is, considering those feelings have gone unresolved. As long as there is a discrepancy between two characters' interactions, that is unconfronted, it should remain until resolved. That's good continuity and that's what I expect from Smallville. I can't explain it more plainly.

okay Im sorry I lied.
:p

Sydafex7

05-23-2005, 11:36 PM

Originally posted by Arista 07
It does, on both accounts.

We are discussing continuity, that is scnene-to-scene, episode-to-episode consistency between the events that occur throughout the season. When an event like Lex stealing from Clark happens, and uneasiness is exchanged between the both of them, that animosity is should be carried over into the next episode. That is, considering those feelings have gone unresolved. As long as there is a discrepancy between two characters' interactions, that is unconfronted, it should remain until resolved. That's good continuity and that's what I expect from Smallville.

Well you are right in the fact that there wasnt a scene involving a conversation between lex and clark about the stealing of the map and how clark doesnt think he came over there to see how he was doing.

you are right about that

but, the scene in ageless where Clark and Lex are simply having a conversationunrelated to the convo in "blank", doesnt need hostility because Lex didnt say anything to warrent it, in that scene.

It doesnt make any sense (please tell me if this does) for lex to say "Clark, you'll make a good father some day" and have Clark respond with "oh yeah? well why were you at my house the day I got my memory back? you werent really there to see how my recovery was going were you??"

See? that makes no sense. I see what you are saying, I really do. You believe if Clark was unwarry of him in Blank because of that whole scene, then he should be unwarry and confrontational with him in the scene in "ageless" where lex says he'll be a good father. But, That ISNT the right time for Clark to be confrontational. it would make no sense for him to blow up at Lex out of nowhere

Arista 07

05-23-2005, 11:39 PM

Originally posted by Sydafex7
Well you are right in the fact that there wasnt a scene involving a conversation between lex and clark about the stealing of the map and how clark doesnt think he came over there to see how he was doing.

you are right about that

but, the scene in ageless where Clark and Lex are simply having a conversationunrelated to the convo in "blank", doesnt need hostility because Lex didnt say anything to warrent it, in that scene.

It doesnt make any sense (please tell me if this does) for lex to say "Clark, you'll make a good father some day" and have Clark respond with "oh yeah? well why were you at my house the day I got my memory back? you werent really there to see how my recovery was going were you??"

See? that makes no sense. I see what you are saying, I really do. You believe if Clark was unwarry of him in Blank because of that whole scene, then he should be unwarry and confrontational with him in the scene in "ageless" where lex says he'll be a good father. But, That ISNT the right time for Clark to be confrontational. it would make no sense for him to blow up at Lex out of nowhere
You were not long ago speaking of undertones. When Clark and Lex spoke in "Blank" was there some huge blow out? No. Were there feelings of suspicion an uneasiness on both their parts? Yes. Were the results of Blank completely disregarded? Yes.

Sydafex7

05-24-2005, 12:08 AM

Also, just in the sake of friendly arguement, isn't the writers' job to show us the deterioration of Clark and Lex's friendship. How is that ever to be displayed if their true feelings remain concealed, as you say they are?

Sure, its their job, and they are gradually showing it. But it doesnt make sense for Clark to just blow up at lex everytime lex does something that makes Clark suspicious of him. THey will be able to show the deterioration of clark and lex's friendship, even if they keep their true feelings concealed" by using dramatic Irony.

WE the viewer see Lex do things to conceive clark, even though clark doesnt see these things. This shows US, the viewer that their friendship is being derailed, even if it isnt clear to othr characters on the show.

Originally posted by Arista 07
You were not long ago speaking of undertones. When Clark and Lex spoke in "Blank" was there some huge blow out? No. Were there feelings of suspicion an uneasiness on both their parts? Yes. Were the results of Blank completely disregarded? Yes.

I dont think that means that Clark has totally disregarded what happened in Blank. He just didnt happen to mention anything about it in that episode. Just because he didnt bring it up, doesnt mean he doesnt remember that it happened. He does remember all of these times he has been suspicious. but, since he is not 100% sure if lex was being untrutheful, he didnt bring it up. He doesnt want Lex to think that he is suspicious about some of the deceiving things he has done to him, so, he beats around the bush and adds in those undertones, but only when they are necessary, which they werent in their convo in ageless, because they would seem out of place thus, drawing suspicion onto himself that he knows the things lex does behind his back.

neither of us will ever agree with the other one's post so this could go on all night. I dont have all night to discuss this, so Im getting off. I will wait and read your reply though.

Arista 07

05-24-2005, 12:11 AM

Originally posted by Sydafex7
Sure, its their job, and they are gradually showing it. But it doesnt make sense for Clark to just blow up at lex everytime lex does something that makes Clark suspicious of him. THey will be able to show the deterioration of clark and lex's friendship, even if they keep their true feelings concealed" by using dramatic Irony.
First of all, dramatic irony is a better mean of conveying deterioration in relationships than reflection of that deterioration expressed by the characters? I honestly don't know how to confront that sort of logic. The mind boggles. . .

WE the viewer see Lex do things to conceive clark, even though clark doesnt see these things. This shows US, the viewer that their friendship is being derailed, even if it isnt clear to othr characters on the show.
We, the viewers, also see Clark react to that deceit. Even though Clark doesn't see these things, he has an inkling. That inkling evokes animosity. That animosity is *supposed* to be relfected (and in this instance, is) in dialogue, blocking, and emotion. Clark and Lex's friendship has changed throughout the years. Their interaction has changed throughout the years. Regardless of not knowing every ambiguous move Lex has made (vice versa), Clark (as you stated above) does not trust Lex. In turn, Lex does not trust. Now, this supposed incessant mistrust ("incessent" because there has been nothing to remedy such feelings) has not been portrayed consistently throughout the season. It was evidenced in Ageless and Lucy, wherein Lex calls Clark "brother" after having very hostile encounters in Krypto. Hence, bad continuity.

I dont think that means that Clark has totally disregarded what happened in Blank. He just didnt happen to mention anything about it in that episode. Just because he didnt bring it up, doesnt mean he doesnt remember that it happened. He does remember all of these times he has been suspicious. but, since he is not 100% sure if lex was being untrutheful, he didnt bring it up. He doesnt want Lex to think that he is suspicious about some of the deceiving things he has done to him, so, he beats around the bush and adds in those undertones, but only when they are necessary, which they werent in their convo in ageless, because they would seem out of place thus, drawing suspicion onto himself that he knows the things lex does behind his back.
Consistency amongst the "undertones" is necessary. It's called continuity. Smallville doesn't have it.