Angel [Archive] - KSiteTV Television & Movie Forums

Chase M

01-22-2004, 01:27 AM

Yeah, I was going to post in the "ANGEL thread", but that would potentially have the hazard of becoming a mess, since I'm going to start to post weekly threads from now 'til ANGEL ends. So merge this if you will, but please consider. ;)

(Since the show is now over and we have an incredibly active Angel Thread, I've merged all the old Angel Episode Discussions into the main thread!!!)

Aanyway.

Wow, I really don't know what to think, a very trippy episode by our own David Boreanaz. His debut as a director was quite splendid, kudos to him.

Now back to the episode.

It seems that Angel is having difficulties trying to understand what side he is on now. I mean, taking over an evil law firm, but wanting to do good, help the helpless, but having restrictions and having to follow set the rules and regulations of that Evil Law Firm.

“Am I good, or am I evil?”

I think that is what this all comes down to. If Angel believes he is doing good anymore, if he is making a difference. Really, if you haven’t noticed that this season, then I don’t know how you managed to watch this far along. Hehehe, I kid, but yeah, still. ;) Even the episode title, “Soul Purpose,” tells you what this is all about. That being if Angel having a “soul” has any “purpose” these days. Like I and you all have said before, all of these years (seasons to us), Angel was fighting the good fight, and helping the helpless with the hope that one day he would “become a real boy” once again. That was the purpose of him doing all the good he was. Now he has given up on the Shanshu Prophecy. He is thinking, “How much good am I going to have to do to be rewarded? How much is enough?” Well, that is what he was thinking before he gave up on the prophecy at very least.

No really, now back to the episode. (haha)

This was a very good episode if you have been watching ANGEL since the beginning. Some key notes were:

-The Buffy dubbing.
…Oh man, I don’t know if this was a little cheap shot by Joss and the writers, and I feel that it was apart of the storyline, but still, insinuating that all she was good for was a good “lay in the sack” was a little tongue in cheek.

-Lindsey calling himself, “Doyle.”
…I thought that whole sequence of events was a part of Angel’s hallucinations, until I realized that it wasn’t. I guess Spike doesn’t remember Doyle, although they have met before in Season 1 Episode 3 “In the Dark.” You know, the episode with Spike, Oz, the Ring, and Angel being human for a day, great episode by the way. :D Yeah, well, I wonder what the reaction will be like when Spike tells Angel about his new friend, “Doyle.” Unless something happens where Angel and Co. know about Lindsey’s return, it should make for a shocking moment at least.

-Lindsey’s “Senior Partner blocking Tattoos”
…I knew those bad boys weren’t just for looks. It became rather clear that they served some purpose when I saw them all over the walls, his room and everywhere else in that room. Although they don’t protect Eve I assume, hmm.

-The Bear Nurse
…Hah. If that bear was blonde, then well, that would have been hilarious (Spike being Blondie Bear and all), but I think this Bear was the Cheese Guy of Angel. The cheese guy, you know, as seen in Buffy. An obscure, bald man with glasses who likes hand out cheese, which was also stolen and put into Vanilla Sky, by the way.

And about Lindsey telling Spike to go save Angel. Wait, so he wasn’t suppose to end up a vegetable? I guess this is where Angel will faint hearing about “Doyle,” you know, right after Spike tells him about his new “friend.” Like I said, it should be interesting, although that part didn’t make much sense.

Alexis Denisof (Wesley) did an interview and said that his clean shaven looks would serve a purpose later on in the season. I don’t know what that means, but please, feel free to speculate. Hehehe.

And (this doesn’t have to be grammatically correct, right?) Angel’s hallucinations were fears. They were fears he has had about Wes, Fred, Gunn, and is having about himself. The whole ‘Detachment’/’What’s my motivation Mr. Director?‘ issue. Just a note, I don’t think his past fears about his friends serves much purpose other than that.

“Oh my darling, oh my darling,
Oh my darling Clementine
You are lost and gone forever,
Dreadful sorry, Clementine”

Nice job with “Clementine.” Very good reference, and the part where Angel can’t sing can be interpreted in a bunch of ways, but my favorite way to look at it is that since Angel can’t sing, Lorne can’t find out what’s wrong with him, and Angel will never get better.

The more important part of the hallucinations was the whole, “Spike is the REAL destined one” facet. This hallucination will just fuel the tension between Spike and Angel, and may even push Angel to attempt in killing our Blondie Bear. And contributing more to this is the whole, “Lindsey/Spike relationship,” which is just a mockery of the relationship between Doyle and Angel, or from a viewer perspective, a mockery of Season 1.

I think Angel and Co. have Eve figured out, I think. Like I said when she was first introduced, “I don’t like her … they should burn her at the cross while she hasn’t done anything yet, before she does.” Okay, not that exactly, and it was probably more polished, but yeah, interpret that and make it more sophisticated and that’s what I said. No really. :D

The preview for next weeks episode, “Damage” and episode 5x12, “You’re Welcome!” looks phenomenal! Tom Lenk is back as Andrew! And in 5x12, ANGEL’s 100th Episode Charisma Carpenter is back as Cordelia for her final send off from the show. Should be a grand event indeed!

Chase M

01-23-2004, 12:41 AM

*DING!*

And then I thought, could Wesley be working with Lindsey behind of everyone's backs? I mean, with Lindsey using Eve for her resources to the Powers, and Wesley making sure Lindsey remains underwraps until he can tell Angel and Co. A union between Wesley and Lindsey to fight the Senior Partners of W&H would be quite the twist, wouldn't it?

I mean, having the Senior Partners as this seasons big bad is big deal quite actually. It could mean the permanent forclosure of W&H, and all of it's evil (oh come on, we all know it's still evil!).

I am very intrigued now, even more so. I just know Joss and Co. won't let us down with another "Jasmine" horror.

:o

willowaz

01-23-2004, 03:29 AM

i'm so enjoying the new series on sky 1 atm, its got a bit of everything - humour, fighting and everything!

RatTheViolinist

01-24-2004, 11:20 AM

I just started watching Angel this season and was wondering if someone could give me a summery of the important parts of previous shows. (Like does Angel have a son?)

Thanks.

Mr Boejangles

01-24-2004, 11:24 AM

Well im no angle fan, but i have seen a bunch of post on the show over in the other tv shows fourm. check in there. im sure you find an angel gold mine .

nexgod

01-24-2004, 05:19 PM

wow

YOU MESSSED MY MIND

...heh

Spike did the Angel season one thing with the stakes, which was cool

RatTheViolinist

01-25-2004, 10:34 AM

Thanks!

Dannyblue1

01-26-2004, 12:40 AM

It would be nearly impossible to summarize the first four seasons of ANGEL. So much happened. All I can suggest is that, if you live in the US, you watch the reruns on TNT weekdays at 5 pm Eastern. They're in the middle of the first season right now.

But, to answer your question, Angel does have a teen-aged son named Connor.

Disco

01-26-2004, 02:37 PM

hear that angel will be going for another season.

Anya

01-26-2004, 03:50 PM

It is?? That's wonderful news!!!!

RatTheViolinist

01-26-2004, 08:47 PM

Arrgghh! Don't have cable...I have like four channels, luckily WB is one of them...I'll try a website, maybe they'll have a summery. Those fansites do everything.

nexgod

01-27-2004, 12:46 PM

Connor is in his mid 20s isnt he?

well pretty much season 4 never happened now :(

Dannyblue1

01-27-2004, 01:27 PM

The Connor character is 19. But Connor sometimes looks 15 or 16 at the most. Maybe it's the vampire genes that make him look so young.

Also, Connor is technically human (according to all the medical tests); he can go out in the sun, see his reflection, etc. But he has a lot of vampire traits, like strength, speed, enhanced hearing, etc.

Hopefulsuicide

01-27-2004, 01:39 PM

I'll do seasons 1-3... but i havent seen all of four so someone else can do that

Anegl comes to LA to get away from Buffy (his ex) because if he has sex he will loose his soul and he cant resist the temptation. He runs into a half demon called doyle who has visions or people in trouble, and also runs into cordy (cordelia chase from buffy). They make a private investagatory team and help those hopeless. Doyle falls for cordy. There is a police officer called Kate who helps them. Doyle gives up his life to save a bunch of demons and passes his visions onto cordy. Wesley (buffy second ex watcher) turns up and joins the team. We satrt to become more familiar with a law firm that controls and helps demons/evil things. Two lawyers lyndsey and lilah are most seen. Gunn, a gang kid who hunts vampires is intorduced. Faith turns up, hired by wolfram and hart to kill angel, and tortures wesley before turning herslf into the police to relieve her guilt. Her arrival brings buffy to angel and they talk and argue and then she leaves. Season ends with angel investigation team offices blowing up, cordy being stuck with this over powering rush of visions cause of a demon, and angel cuts of lyndsey's hand and then wolfram and hart bring back darla (Angels sire who he killed (vampire who made him))

Karatos is introduced. It is a safe haven for demons and humans, and the owner, lorne, reads people when they sing. He becomes a friend of sorts. Darla messes with angel's mind and he starts to loose it a little. Gunn is hired to join the team. Angel goes a little bad ass and fires the team, then hunting darla and allowing darla and other vamp drusilla to kill a load of lawyers from wolfram and hart. When angel realises he cant fight wolfram and hart because they represent the evil that is in everyone he falls into despare and takes comfort in daral, not caring that he will loose his soul. However, he doesnt, much to darla's surprise. He sends her away, and realising how wrong he has been he saves the police officer kate, who went for a pillathon when she lost her job, he saves the lives of the old team, who decided to keep angel investigations up and running, and he decides to work for them, instead of ask them back. Lyndsey leaves town and runs away from wolfram and hart because he realises how wromng they are. A while later, cordy gets sucked into lornes alternate dimension, where humans are treated as slaves, and the team follow. When the people of the world realise cordy has visions they make her their princess and she is introduced to the grusalug who she is supposed to mate with. Angel finds an escaped slave called Fred who also got sucked into the world, and has been living in a cave for years. He helps her and she comes with them when they finally find their way back home. When they get there angel finds out that buffy has died

Angel comes back from brooding about buffy. Darla reveals she is pregnant. The team try and investigate the appearance of the impossible baby. People try and come for the baby because he has been prophosied to be very powerful. An enimie called holtz from angels past, whos family he killed while he was evil, has been frozen for years and comes back to take his revenge. His pursuit blows up karatos and darla kills herself, turning to ash and leaving nothing but the baby on the floor, angel picks the baby up and holtz decided not to kill them. Instead he decides there is a much better revenge. Wesley discovers that prophecies say that angel will kill his son. But the prophecies are false. Wesley, not knowing this, takes the baby away, and a girl named justine who is working for holtz slits his throat and takes the baby. Holtz then escapes with the baby into a hell dimension. Wesley barely survives but gets into hospital. Anegl tries to kill him for loosing him his son. Wesley goes into exile and starts sleeping with the enemy, lilah. Gusalug comes to this universe and renues his accuantance with cordy. Angel starts to have feelings for cordy. Gru realises that cordy truly loves angel so he leaves. Connor, angel's baby, comes back through a portal as a grown man because time is different in that dimension. He fights angel because holtz has made him think he is evil. He then runs away. Anegl sort of convinces him he is not evil, but holtz has justine kill him and makes it look like angel did it. This causes connor to go beserk. Cordy and angel arrange to meet to talk about their feelings but cordy is transpoted to another level and angel is put in a metal box and sunk to the bottom of the ocean by his son and justine.

oh yeah and cordy becomes part demon because otherwise the visions will kill her... this is before connor comes back

RatTheViolinist

01-27-2004, 06:58 PM

..............

wow...and I thought Smallville was confusing.

Of course, it's not much different than BTVS. The main reason I started watching it was because Spike showed up.

By the way, I may be the wrong person to tell you this, but it's a very common spelling error and I'm like the only person in the world it bothers, but loose means, like, "The knot comes loose." If you want to use it the other way, say: "I lose the game," or, "Greg loses his tie." Sorry if that bugs you, I know I'm a freak. Thanks a bunch for the summary. (Jeez, that was a summary!?)

Hopefulsuicide

01-28-2004, 11:59 AM

doesnt bother me at all... i was typing real fast and spelled loads of stuff wrong. Plus i always make stupid mistakes like that... like saying their instead of there and stuff

i just wish i could do season 4 aswell :)

kal el 1

01-28-2004, 12:25 PM

um this may sound stupid but i just started watchin and spike is the werewolf guy right. i thought him and angel were friends so y r they always fightin now

Hopefulsuicide

01-28-2004, 12:34 PM

spike is not a werewolf... oz was the werewolf... and oz is the one who brings angel the ring of armarra in eppie three i think... then spike comes along and tries to steal it

spike is a vampire

kal el 1

01-28-2004, 12:41 PM

thanx fer clearin it up fer me

Ruby Red

01-28-2004, 01:27 PM

Just to clarify: the bar that Lorne owned and Angel basically blew up (well, Holtz did) was called "Caritas" which i think is latin for "Mercy"

Spike was sired by Drusilla. Angel is his grandsire... he sired Dru who sired Spike. Angel and Spike have never gotten along. Spike resented the hold that Angelus had over Drusilla (s2 Buffy). And both vampires now have souls and both loved Buffy.

When Cordelia became part demon, it was to compensate for her inability to cope with the visions. Connor was in the episode, but he was a baby at the time.

Season Four Angel is as follows: From memory, so it may be hazy in parts:

At the end of s3 Connor and Justine sent Angel to the bottom of the sea. Justine was the one who actually killed Holtz (at Holtz's request) but lets Connor think that Angelus killed him. So Angel has spent 3 months at the bottom of the sea. Fred and Gunn spend the time hunting for him with Connor supposedly helping. Wesley in the meantime has started a very intense relationship with Lilah, though neither will admit that it is a relationship. We also find out that Wesley has Justine imprisoned in his closet and is spending time searching for Angel. Wesley has gone very dark and i think its a trait that totally suits him. The glasses are also gone for this season too. Eventually Wesley locates Angel in his box and brings him back to the surface. Angel is delusional from lack of blood and the pig's blood, while it helps, doesn't do enough, so Wesley has Angel feed from him to regain his strength. Wes gets in touch with Fred and Gunn who find out that Connor was involved. There's a confrontation between them and Angel returns to the Hyperion. He tells Connor that he loves him but sends him away. But he's always keeping an eye on him.

He goes searching for Cordelia, who has ascended as a Higher Being. He needs to get the Axis of Pythia. A girl called Gwen is also after the same thing, she is basically electrical, she can't touch human skin because she'll electrocute them (she basically causes Gunn's heart to stop, but revives him) but with Angel, she manages to briefly start his heart beating. She is stealing the axis for a client for big bucks but is double crossed by her client. Angel eventually discovers that Cordelia is a Higher Being and is happy where she is. Fred and Gunn's relationship starts to fall apart when Fred finds out her former physics professor sent her to Pylea on purpose, and Gunn kills him rather than let Fred kill him (which is what she wanted to do). Then the team go to Las Vegas to look for Lorne. He's a huge star there but is being held prisoner by i think, a gangster of some sort because of his abilities to read people's auras. These victims lose their free will. Angel is also affected but it all comes right and the gang with Lorne return to LA and the Hyperion to discover Cordelia in the lobby. She doesn't know who they are or who she is. Angel tries to protect her initially by not telling her who he really is (ie a vampire) but it backfires badly and instead she runs into the arms of Connor, who protects her. Lorne does a spell to try and bring back Cordy's memory but it doesnt work and all the team except Lorne revert to their teen selves, Angel is Liam, for example, Wes reverts to his nerdy, awkward self, Gunn is a street-smart tough guy, Cordelia is again Queen C and Fred is a pot addicted nerd. They realise one of them is a vampire and try to find out who it is (it's a pretty funny ep actually). At the end, Cordy's memory is restored but she gets a flash of something horrible coming, something really bad. She also tells Angel that they were in love once, but she can't do it again just yet. She stays with Connor. The visions get stronger, of a horned beast. They go for a walk and the Beast appears in the very spot that Connor was born in the alleyway back in "Lullaby". It attacks Connor and goes for Cordy, but doesn't kill either of them and it takes off. Team Angel go after it. But they can't defeat it and all hell literally breaks loose in LA with a rain of fire falling... and Connor and Cordelia sleep together with Angel in an opposite building as a witness!.

Still with me?

Angel is very, very angry with both his son and Cordelia. Connor blames himself for everything that is happening and thinks the beast is connected to him. He goes to W & H for answers but the beast enters the building and starts killing all the lawyers. Lilah manages to escape with help from Wes, then she tells him Connor is in there, so Team Angel go in to rescue him. Also, for some reason, all of the lawyers that the beast has killed turn into zombies.. but Connor is rescued and Angel reveals that he knows about their little get together. Then the team realise that the beast intends to bring about permanent darkness and needs the five totems of the Ra-Tet and their powers to do this. Ultimately they fail but Cordelia is getting weird visions about the beast and that he is talking to someone like he knows him but she doesn't know who. At the end we realise that the Beast knew Angelus and the team realise that the only way to beat the beast is to bring forth Angelus. Initially Angel is dead against the idea but Cordelia talks to him and he changes his mind. Wesley brings in a shaman to remove Angel's soul and Angelus is free once more. He's locked in a cage and he spends the time not being grilled by Wesley, taunting the other members of the gang, putting them at odds with each other. They get all the info they think they're going to get and try to restore Angel's soul and they realise it's gone. A spell is done to restore Angel's soul and everyone thinks it has worked, but it hasnt and Angelus escapes. It's around now that we discover Cordelia is not whom we think she is, and she tells Connor that she's pregnant (she was pregnant in real life). Cordelia kills Lilah but everyone thinks Angelus was the culprit. They bring in Faith to capture Angelus and eventually she succeeds but at a pretty high price. Willow is drafted in as previously she was the only person ever to have restored Angel's soul. After a battle with Cordelia (though she doesn't know it's Cordelia), she succeeds. Then Cordelia reveals her pregnancy to the team and we later discover she was the one behind all the pandemonium regarding Angel's lost soul. Angel realises that he has to kill her and her unborn child, but isn't quick enough and the child is born, fully grown. She's called Jasmine and she has everyone under her spell. Cordelia is now in a coma. Fred is the first to realise that she (Jasmine) isn't who she says she is when she comes into contact with Jasmine's blood. All the others turn against her. Jasmine's influence is huge, she's seen as a Messianic figure. But Angel is contaminated by her blood and eventually so are all the others. They see her true face. They think they've converted Connor to their way, but it turns out Connor has always seen her like that. Eventually it all goes a little haywire when Jasmine is seen for what she really is. Connor then kills her. He is utterly emotionless.

Then Lilah shows up (she's dead, Wesley had to behead her because they though Angelus had changed her, when he didn't kill her) with an offer of a lifetime. To take over the LA branch of Wolfram and Hart with Angel as boss. They have a look around (the office has been completley rebuilt) and Angel is really tempted to turn it down, though the rest of the team want to do it. Angel finds out that Connor has flipped out, he's holding hostages in a sports store. They're all strapped to bombs including a still comatose Cordelia. There's a confrontation between father and son and we're under the impression that Angel kills him. What's happened is that he's made a deal with those at W & H to give Connor a happy family life with no memory of him or the team and vice versa. Only Angel remembers him. He takes the job on then goes to see Connor in a house with a family, about to go to college and with a little smile on his face, turns and walks back to the car.

So there you go, pretty much season four in a nutshell :)

(and my hands are killing me!) :D :lol:

RatTheViolinist

01-28-2004, 06:08 PM

Thanks. Although it's utterly complicated, it actually explains a whole lot. Like the deal with Wesley.

But I think I missed something there. I just have one more question. What in Laurene (don't know how to spell his name) for him have green skin and horns and does anyone have a pic of the actor who plays him without all the goop?

Dannyblue1

01-28-2004, 09:34 PM

Lorne is a demon from the Pylean hell dimension, but he's a good demon. That's what I love about ANGEL. A demon can be good or bad or neutral. They aren't automatically bad just beacause they are a demon. But, as Angel points out, it's hard to tell the difference between good demons and bad demons, so "They should wear lapel pins or something."

Chase M

01-29-2004, 12:14 AM

Wow, great episode, and definitely one of my favorites of this year so far.

This episode does a lot in such a short amount of time. It gives up the update-to-date with the Scooby Gang, and let’s Angel and Co. know about Willow’s spell, which tells them about the whole new crop of Slayers wandering out there.

More importantly, it seems like Giles has trained Andrew, albeit he still has his lovable quirks, but he seems (like at the end) a more toughened individual. To speculate, when I first heard that he “was trained” I immediately though, “New Watcher’s Council!” and I am still thinking about it. Perhaps?

Andrew was the best part about this episode, and season, so far. The beginning where he’s surprised and happy to see Spike was hilarious, and somewhat touching as well.

Tom Lenk has great comedic timing, and is a great actor. Kudos to him for doing such a wonderful job. Oh, and I love the new hair.

About the storyline, with Dana mixing her parents murder with her slayer dreams, then pursuing Spike for a little bit o’ revenge. I think it was a great story, but the thing that got me was,

*thinking speak* “I never knew that the new Slayers gained the past memories of the previous Slayers?”

When did this rule turn about face?

Oh, and dammit! Willow is still with that jailbait, Kennedy. Bollocks! ;)

Thank you (to the writers, and Joss) for giving us a break from Eve and Lindsey. Christ, if I had to see Eve again, I would have just about lost it.

Oh, and I laughed my ass off when I heard Spike deliver this retort to Angel,

Angel: “You think this is a joke?”
Spike: “Only if you’re the punchline.”

Clever. Which brings me onto my next talking point. The writing was very good this episode. Loved the dialogue, loved it. Kudos to the writer(s). Also, the humor was a little more subtle, and was very appreciated.

The final scenes were phenomenal.

Andrew standing ground against Angel really made it look like two opposing Armies, with the troops and Leader, staring each other down before the war began. I’m sure this is how the cinematographer intended it to look, but even if it wasn’t, it was also very effective to show the two sides – good and evil.

I also loved Andrew’s line, which went something like, “Honestly, we don’t trust you anyone. Don’t kid yourselves; you work for Wolfram and Hart, an evil law firm.” It was about time someone said that to Angel and Co. They need to realize that they are defending evil, even if trying to do good at the same time. I’m glad Andrew told Angel off, it was due.

Oh, and the Slayers ascending upon the premises, almost seemingly on cue, was very cool. But! What gave me a good chuckle was,

“And these slayers haven’t dated you.”

Oh man! Some of the retorts in this episode will definitely go down in Whedonverse history as some of the better ones. Most of which were said by good ole Andrew.

We – finally – have a serious chat between Spike and Angel. Spike, surprisingly to me, openly admits that he feels bad about the evil he has done. He even says that he has turned Dana into a monster, just by his evil past mixing up with her misconception of the murderer, and her knowing about the past evil he has done. That’s a pretty big character breakthrough, quite frankly.

“I’m not going to say that you’re right ... ‘cause I physically can’t say it.”

Then we get down to their reasons. Spike, as previously said quite a bit in the past, did it for the rush and excitement; while Angel, again previously said quite a bit in the past, viewed each life-taken as Art, an art form. Angel actually got pretty eerie when describing his love of his Art, which makes me believe – we will see Angelus again this season, but Angel will turn himself back.

Think about it. Angel has lost hope over the prophecy, feels disconnected, but it seems he still can feel the love for his infatuation with making death an art. So he turns himself back into Angelus, and then we have the big showdown – Angelus vs. Spike. Then Spike does good again, stakes Angel and becomes human, fleeing to Europe to be with Buffy. Angel’s demise also works out well because now Buffy only has Spike, ya’ know?

And then I remember this is the Buffyverse. As Joss said, “Never give them what they want.”

My scenario has about a slim to none chance of happening, but still.

Now about the 100th Episode, “You’re Welcome!” I don’t know the plot, but it’s apparent that Cordy wakes up from her coma, and is in disbelief over what has arisen over the months. We also see Spike visibly attack Cordy, what that means, I don’t know, but I guess we’ll all have to wait ‘til next week.

Cheers!

-Chase :cool:

Chase M

01-29-2004, 01:29 AM

On a different tangent, I think Lindsey provided a key statement about W&H:

"The key to Wolfram and Hart: Don't let them make you play their game. You gotta' make them play yours." - Lindsey, from 'Dead End'

In layman's terms, "Don't change yourself to their style, change them to your style."

This seems to become less and less of a case as each episode passes by. As W&H is converting each AI member.

Andrew returning also made it clear that no one trusts Team Angel anymore, because of this risk.

:)

vyperman7

01-29-2004, 04:59 AM

I have always been a fan of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. But up until recently, I stayed away from Angel. However, since Angel was a spin off from Buffy, I was always very curious about it. So I decided to buy season 1 on DVD and give it a try. I was hooked instantly!! I am anxiously awaiting my season 3 DVD set to come in the mail. Season 3 is released on February 10th, if I'm not mistaken. I really want to watch the new episodes, but I hate watching a show out of order. After seeing the first two seasons, I must say that it is a great show. I still like season 1 the best so far though. Lorne is the man by the way.

One major question - After season 2, why was Fred made into a regular character? She was only seen in the last three episodes, and she appeared to be just another person that Angel and his team helped. Supposedly she serves as the brains of the group. But from her role in season 2, I would've never guessed that she'd return in season 3. I must admit though. The actress who plays Fred is extremely atttractive!!

Also, is Lorne supposed to be gay? There are moments where it looks like he is hitting on Angel, and then other moments where he seems straight and he is talking about a women that he slept with.

Ruby Red

01-29-2004, 05:26 AM

Lorne is an anagocic demon, which means that he can read people's auras when they sing. I think when his character was introduced at the beginning of season two, he was meant to be gay, that's the impression that was given, but we haven't seen him with a significant other. He has had some great one liners in the show and Andy Hallet, who plays him, is a sweetheart from all accounts. Lorne left Pylea because he'd discovered music (which didn't exist in Pylea) and he was kind of the disgraced son.

Amy Acker is the lady who plays Fred Burkle. She's a super-intellingent super shy young lady whom Angel rescued in Pylea. In the early episodes of season three she had a huge crush on Angel, she saw him as her knight in shining armour. Her role within the group as a physicist and all round general brainy person is to help out Wes in the research department and also she evened out the ratio a little as previously Cordelia was the only female member of the team. In season four, with Angel's enforced absence she gained more of a backbone (watch the S4 premiere for example, yikes!) and in season five she's even more confident and has more of a backbone which is a great thing, though she still has her moments when she reverts to the supernerd of her early episodes. I think her character is adorable, very sweet and very quirky. :)

MadCow

01-29-2004, 06:37 AM

I really don't think Lorne is supposed to be gay, he's made plenty of references to women he has liked. I think that's the assumption we're supposed to make along with the assumption that all demons are bad. To quote Joss Whedon "Nothing is ever what it seems."

MadCow

Dannyblue1

01-29-2004, 08:23 AM

I think it's fair to say Lorne is sexually ambiguous. He might be straight. He might be gay. He might be bi. Who knows? He's fabulous either way.

Still, I love when he flirts with Angel. I don't think Angel has had people call him, "Cinnamon buns," or "Muffin," before.

One of the funniest scenes on the show was the one where Angel told Lorne to "Stop calling me pastries!" :lol:

Big Albowski

01-29-2004, 08:56 AM

I loved this episode! It was great to see Andrew... when he told Spike it was like "Gandalf the White rising from the pit of the Balrog" I cracked up!!! Then the whole "You're so beautiful" line!!!!!
I loved Spikes reaction to hearing that Andrew stood up to Angel! You just know Spike likes the kid deep down! I really hope we see Andrew again!!

Al

RatTheViolinist

01-29-2004, 09:24 AM

Listening to you guys makes me wish I had started watching the show sooner. I only wish my other shows were as funny as ANGEL! That's what I like best about it.

I'd buy a couple seasons on DVD, but I'm saving my spare cash for Smallville 2, 3, 4... (Smallville's my #1 fave, I mean, just because I've been a Buffy fan for just a few years and I've had this Superman obsession since I was born. I think it's a genetic thing.)

Dannyblue1

01-29-2004, 10:01 AM

About Fred, she was definately added so there's be another female on the show. Some fans were saying there was too much testosterone with Angel, Gunn and Wes. Plus, Wes and Gunn seemed to see Cordy as off limits, so they needed someone else for them to crush on.

By the way, Angel and the Fang Gang had a hand in wrecking Lorne's club three times. First, Angel drove his car through it. Then, after Lorne fixed it up, Gunn's old demon fighting gang shot it up/trashed it. Then, after Lorne fixed it up again, and was foolish enough to let them hide out there (but that's what friends are for) Holtz blew it up. Finally, Lorne conceded defeat and moved into Angel's hotel. He mentioned turning the old ballroom into a club, but Angel didn't seem fond of the idea.

TorchJournalist1989

01-29-2004, 11:41 AM

I really didn't like this episode that much.

I only liked it because of Andrew and how he clearly has a crush on Spike.

The Slayer Dana annoyed me to no end. I was rooting for Angel or Spike to kill her. I know that she was tortured and stuff but she just got on my nerves.

Can someone tell me if Spike has hands anymore? When Dana tied Spike up she cut off his hands and then in the hospital it kind of looked like he still had them.

I think he might've been hallucinating, but I have no idea.

I was waiting for an ep to introduce a Slayer but I didn't really like it in this way.

The Slayers gain memories of the past Slayers was really introduced I think in the comics. If you read Fray, Melaka says that she has had them and I think it's mentioned in some of the Buffy the Vampire Slayer books.

I'm pretty sure it was established basically outside of the tv show.

The thing I didn't know was that the potentials get the dreams, I thought they only got the dreams if they were slayers.

MadCow

01-29-2004, 11:54 AM

While Buffy was on I thought that it was alright for Angel to have an almost all male cast as Buffy got to have an almost all female cast but now that Angel stands alone and (oops is this season 1 -4, Ok, I won't say what I was about to) well, another main female wouldn't go amiss.

MadCow

Hopefulsuicide

01-29-2004, 12:06 PM

lorne is camp... dunno about gay...and i love the pastries too, and the idea that the only help he is in battle is singing... and it works

fred is a great character, especially at the beggining of season 4, and i can see why they added her, cause she does miprove the show a bit

Chase M

01-29-2004, 03:32 PM

Originally posted by Big Albowski
I loved this episode! It was great to see Andrew... when he told Spike it was like "Gandalf the White rising from the pit of the Balrog" I cracked up!!! Then the whole "You're so beautiful" line!!!!!
I loved Spikes reaction to hearing that Andrew stood up to Angel! You just know Spike likes the kid deep down! I really hope we see Andrew again!!

Al

Hah, yep! Andrew was hilarious, and a great addition for the while.

And I definately think Spike enjoys Andrew's company, even if he won't admit it.

:)

Originally posted by TorchJournalist1989
I really didn't like this episode that much.

I only liked it because of Andrew and how he clearly has a crush on Spike.

The Slayer Dana annoyed me to no end. I was rooting for Angel or Spike to kill her. I know that she was tortured and stuff but she just got on my nerves.

Can someone tell me if Spike has hands anymore? When Dana tied Spike up she cut off his hands and then in the hospital it kind of looked like he still had them.

I think he might've been hallucinating, but I have no idea.

I was waiting for an ep to introduce a Slayer but I didn't really like it in this way.

The Slayers gain memories of the past Slayers was really introduced I think in the comics. If you read Fray, Melaka says that she has had them and I think it's mentioned in some of the Buffy the Vampire Slayer books.

I'm pretty sure it was established basically outside of the tv show.

The thing I didn't know was that the potentials get the dreams, I thought they only got the dreams if they were slayers.

Yep, Spike has hands once again. During the scene where Fred is leading the emergency team away from the scene, she mentions "the Shaman's" which are W&H's primary source of medicinal majiks.

Then in the hospital Spike mentions about giving Angel "the finger," but not being able to because the painkillers won't allow him to use his hands for a while.

As someone else mentioned on BuffyBB.net, I think Joss and Co. purposely added in this new facet to new Slayers having a psychic connection with the previous Slayers.

If you go to BuffyBB.net, check out the "Damage" post, great commentary.

:cool:

Hartski

01-30-2004, 09:26 AM

Awesome episode!! Andrew made me laugh so hard, I almost peed my pants. Especially the way he pronounces vamPIRE. And when Angel pronounced it like that-pure comedy!

Beady Eyes

01-31-2004, 05:54 AM

Vampyre ;)

Beady Eyes

01-31-2004, 06:05 AM

I believe Lorne is simply flamboyant. He is after all, all show biz. Eccentric and flamboyant!

nexgod

01-31-2004, 06:53 AM

Yeh Slayers DO get the dreams of past slayers, remember Buffy? and the umm Restless episode?

with the Cheese guy rolf!!

slave2moonlight

01-31-2004, 07:20 AM

I love the show Angel. I think Spike makes it good though. And I also watch it because Winifred is a hottie (of course I mean Fred, but I don't want people thinking I'm talking about a Guy). Love the opening theme too! Wednesday is my TV night, when everybody has to get out of the way and keep quiet! Ha. I've only been watching since they took over Wolfram and Hart though. We never got the WB till recently. I'm glad Cordy is not on it though. Never liked her much. I didn't think she was that pretty and never liked her personality. They need to bring that werewolf girl back for another episode!

nexgod

01-31-2004, 07:47 AM

CORDEILIA ROCKED!!

anyways shes coming back so there :p

Dannyblue1

01-31-2004, 08:08 AM

Originally posted by nexgod
CORDEILIA ROCKED!!

I second, third, and fourth that! Cordy is my favorite character next to Angel, and the show just isn't the same without her.

Chase M

01-31-2004, 06:39 PM

Originally posted by nexgod
Yeh Slayers DO get the dreams of past slayers, remember Buffy? and the umm Restless episode?

with the Cheese guy rolf!!

Yep, the psychic connection between Slayers. :cool:

Nightfire

02-02-2004, 03:51 PM

Oh i just love how Andrew screwed them over... of course he was also a little TOO happy to see Spike... but oh well! I'm kinda hoping Andrew comes back, so I can see how much he could annoy Angel... oh come on it would be a laugh!

Deysi

02-03-2004, 07:09 PM

If anyone didn't know or wanted to know I heard that the cast of Angel will be on that new show that Ryan Seacrest has.. So if anyone was interested I thought I'd let ya know.. Its on UPN..

~Mandy~

MadCow

02-03-2004, 08:25 PM

Cordelia's only returning for one episode isn't she, that's what I heard.

MadCow

Deysi

02-03-2004, 10:28 PM

Yeah the 100th episode.. Wish it was Buffy but I read somewhere she didn't want to be on the show just yet.. Something about it being too early.

~Mandy~

victoriawinters

02-04-2004, 12:01 AM

I personally loved this episode. This episode and Destiny have been my absolute favs. Both have Steve DeKnight as co-writer. For this episode he teamed with Drew Goddard.

I really loved Andrew. Amusing Lord of the Rings references. At the end, I thought he showed some real back-bone towards Angel. Normally, we've seen him as kinda of a sissy.

Wonder if all those slayers are going to actually kill all the vampires. Can one ever really kill all of the evil?

Real nice review of right and wrong. Evil vs. good. Victimhood or not? And, Angel's theme, redemption. Main theme of the show throughout.

Looking forward to the 100th episode tomorrow. Penned by David Fury. It should be a good one.

Dannyblue1

02-04-2004, 12:28 AM

Originally posted by slave2moonlight
I love the show Angel. I think Spike makes it good though.

ANGEL was good looooooong before Spike became a regular. In fact, this is the weakest season of the 5, in my opinion. And not because of Spike (who I love) but all the changes the WB wanted them to make so the show would have a "wider appeal". I mean, they got rid of the stuff the fans loved, for goodness sakes. (The dark, Gothic feel, the Hyperion hotel, the sense of family between the characters, Angel's car, etc.)

And I so wish Cordy was coming back as a regular character. The show just isn't the same without her. Cordy wasn't my favorite BtVS character but, on ANGEL, she grew and changed into a character I admired and respected for her strength, courage, compassion and loyalty. I loved the way her character developed from season to season. (SV, take notes.)

Ruby Red

02-04-2004, 03:11 AM

I think the writers took Cordy's character as far as they could IMHO. After becoming evil and lapsing into a coma, what else could she do, apart from the redemption route being followed by Angel and Faith, it's been done.

I'm not as enthusiastic about Angel as i used to be, and i was probably the biggest fan around. Can't put my finger on it exactly. At the end of season four i was looking forward to the possibilities of running the LA branch of W& H could bring to the show, and at the moment i'm still kind of waiting. It's very interesting to watch and I still watch the show religiously but at the moment for me it's kind of lost its spark. Saying that, it's only four episodes in. And last nights ep "Hellbound" was the best so far in my opinion, so i really hope i'm proved wrong.

Dannyblue1

02-04-2004, 08:11 AM

Originally posted by Ruby Red
I think the writers took Cordy's character as far as they could IMHO. After becoming evil and lapsing into a coma, what else could she do, apart from the redemption route being followed by Angel and Faith, it's been done.

Well, every character on this show has had to deal with issues of redemption. Gunn, Wes, Lindsey, even Fred. (Remember, she and Gunn killed her professor.) Redemption is a theme of the show, and no character has dealt with it in the same way.

Plus, unlike the others, Cordy really had no control over what she did, because it wasn't actually her. It was someone else in her body. So I think her story would have been less about atoning for these evil deeds she didn't even commit, and more about dealing with the horror of being body-jacked, used, violated, and left to die, all because she thought she was doing the right thing. That storyline certainly hasn't been dealt with a lot in the past on ANGEL.

nexgod

02-04-2004, 02:39 PM

if you were the bggest fan around, im pretty sure you would have kept on watching, im not a big fan yet i still watch

zhuuka

02-04-2004, 02:48 PM

Angel -drools- I need a mop...Smallville and Angel on one night? Good stuff because I can adore my men in one night, and take a cold shower afterwards. haha j/k.

Dannyblue1

02-04-2004, 04:34 PM

Originally posted by nexgod
if you were the bggest fan around, im pretty sure you would have kept on watching, im not a big fan yet i still watch

It's like having the best home made apple pie ever. I mean, this pie is fantastic. The crust, the filling, the scoop of ice cream on top. It's just the best.

Then, the next day, you eat a pie made in a factory. And, hey, it's not bad. Heck, it's even good. But you can still remember eating the best apple pie in the history of apple pies, so it doesn't even hold up.

That's how I, and many fans, feel about ANGEL Season 5. Hey, it's not bad. I've enjoyed many of the episodes this year. But I still remember when it was the best (seasons 1 to 4). A show so great, all others just paled in comparison. When every episode was an emotional roller coaster ride. When I would have put it up against any other show on TV when it came to writing, humor, drama, character development, continuity, etc. And the fact that I can still see seasons 1 through 4 on TNT makes it even harder for season 5 to compete.

In a way, it's almost not fair. If ANGEL were any other show I'd think season 5 was pretty darn good. But I'm harder on ANGEL than, say, SV or CHARMED, because I know how truly great it can be.

But if I could take everyone reading this thread, sit them down, and show them a few episodes from seasons 1 through 4 from I'd do it. That's how great those seasons are.

JCBaggee

02-04-2004, 05:15 PM

Season 5 has been doing great. The stand-alone format is attracting more fans, and recent episodes (last weeks "Damage" is a prime example) have been huge throwbacks to the earlier years for the longtime fans.

And while redemption is still there, its focusing on another aspect of the character: trust. It played in big in Season 2 (when Angel nearly went insane trying to stop Darla) and its back again. Buffy and the Scoobies (who are now more like Watchers than Scoobs) don't trust Angel, Spike doesn't really believe in any of them, and the recent mindwipe is going to come up soon, bringing up trust issues between Angel and the rest of the group.

Season 5 is great in its own regard. With Whedon taking a more hands-on job with the series, and the new format, its really not fair to compare it to previous seasons. 1-4 were great, but the ride is only looking to get better.

Buckle in kids. Angels about to go through his own personal hell...

--Chris

Disco

02-04-2004, 08:22 PM

i don't really watch it but because it comes after smallville i usually keep it on so i catch bits a pieces.

saw the ending of the 100 epi. i kept going awwwe, awwwe. it was nice. david did a great job.

Ruby Red

02-05-2004, 04:41 AM

Originally posted by nexgod
if you were the bggest fan around, im pretty sure you would have kept on watching, im not a big fan yet i still watch

I DO still watch it, i never said that i'd stopped, i'd just said it had lost a little of it's spark for me personally. We're only 4 episodes in here in the UK, so i'm hoping to be proved wrong.

I've read conflicting reports on just how well Angel is doing. I've heard it's getting its best ratings yet then i've heard that the next 10 episodes after the 100th will decide whether it gets its sixth season.

I love the series, it's mythos, the characters and the storylines, i'm just waiting for this season to be kickstarted and i hope it's very, very soon. I thought Hellbound was a cracking episode, i hope it continues in that same vein. :)

Chase M

02-06-2004, 05:03 AM

|| One hundred spoiler spaces of Angel are writ. One hundred spoiler spaces are writ. Take one down, pass it around. Please copy and paste to protect the Brits! This topic discusses and spoils episode 100 of Angel "You're Welcome" ||

“Mr. Good Humor”

I loved the beginning scenes, from Angel quitting to the zoom over their heads to a speedy shot down the city into Cordelia’s hospital room – and she awakens! It was nicely done. I also loved the humor in this episode.

“You know you made a deal with the devil, right?”
– Cordy to Angel

*Angel talking to The Devil himself*
*Cordy with a sigh of disgust*

“What did I do?”
– Angel

And Spike getting all bothered by the cheap AI of some old 8-Bit sounding game, which I found odd, as he was playing with an X-Box, I believe, but nonetheless, his yelling at the TV made me chuckle a bit. :D

Oh and then there was Lorne. Excuse me while I watch that over…

…Hahaha. Hilarious! Poor Lorne, pissing himself. But man, was that funny or what? :D :p

Man, and Harmony *****-slapping Eve around. That was just sinfully delightful, especially Harm’s lines of something like, “I begged her to run, but no!” Just very funny stuff. Kudos Ms. McNabb.

Ahh, and then there’s this line,

“It could have been made of wood you dumb ass!”
– Angel to Lindsey for swording him in the heart

I didn’t expect that line, but DB delivered it well.

But I have forgotten, it was all a psychic connection between Angel and Cordy, and this is where the sun sets.

“So lonely inside.
So busy out there.
And all you wanted was somebody who cares.”

I knew that Cordelia had to either,

a) Leave LA.
-Which would have been great and all, but I know Joss.

b) Ascend into a Higher Being, leaving the Gang again.
-This was the scenario I would have preferred, but I know the way Joss works.

c) Die.
-“Never give them what they want.” A direct quote from Joss himself.

I would personally like to put out a feeling of thanks to Charisma Carpenter for her phenomenal role of Cordelia “Cordy” Chase. She was one of my favorite parts of the early Buffy, and most of Angel, and her contribution to the show, without a doubt, is appreciated by the fans, and the cast. “Birthday”, “Room with a View”, “That Vision Thing” are just a few of my favorite episodes that not just feature Cordy, but ever. A great character and wonderful actress, cheers to Charisma Carpenter and her wonderful life. :)

Now back to the episode.

I must admit I am a bit thrown off to what really transpired.

I assume that everything was a spiritual/telepathic connection/dream with Cordy, and that Angel awoke at the end to answer the phone. Or did everything actually happen, and Cordy was there, but only as a spirit?

Poor Angel. Cordelia was/is the only other person to completely understand everything that happened, not just within the last year, but to Angel as well. She knew it from the very beginning when she said,

“Don’t give me the company slogan.”

She knew it all.

“There’s no one we can’t save”
“Except maybe yourself.”

She was the only one to know of Connor and of Angel’s sacrifice and reasoning to take W&H’s offer. She understood his angst and his uncertainty of whether doing good even mattered anymore. Cordy was to Angel, as Spike was/is to Buffy. They can relate.

“Conversations with the Dead”

My guess is as good as anybody’s when it comes to what hell the Senior Partners will give, or send upon, Lindsey. That is, if this wasn’t just a telepathic dream sequence/intervention.

The thing is, we still have no idea why Lindsey came back to LA. Other than that he had the intentions to stir up a little fun, until daddy took his T-Bird away.

“Your epidermis is showing”

Now what to do with Eve? I say kill her? Anyone else agree? I mean, Harmony is still upset about not being able to drink the bint. I saw, we let her! Hehehe, but that’s just me.

I believe Eve is expelled from the garden of Wolfram and Hart.

So that leaves me with a question of: “Who is the Big Bad now?”

Is it still Lindsey? I’d personally love to see Angel and Co. duke it out with the Senior Partners .. or just Eve. No wait! I change my mind, I just want to see Angel Inc. take on little Miss Bint. Steel Cage, no holds barred. ;)

Some NOTES and more FUNNY DIALOGUE:

- “Did you just call me a tit?”
…..Angel, hah. He is a tit though, and quite a big one sometimes. Ba-DUM-Cha! *cymbal*

-“House Always Wins” – Angel reference, to the episode with the same title.
…..When Eve was chatting with her Boy Toy. She mentioned that, “The House always wins.” Just noted it. Nothing really major.

-Okay okay, they remember Jasmine, and Cordy the Killer, and the death of Lilah.
…..Was Connor the only thing erased?

-Did anyone else pick up on Angel saying that this is an “Alternate Reality?” I really don’t like the sound of that. I hope Joss and Co. aren’t pulling a “St. Elmo’s Fire” on us.

“Thank You.”

It is how Cordelia, should, be remembered.

And when Cordelia says, “Oh, and you’re welcome!” just sticks in my head, it was just the perfect moment and the right bit of dialogue, ya’ know?

You could see and feel the emotion behind DB’s voice when he answered the phone. The sorrow sounded very real, and was very moving. A big kudos to David for that. It – made – that moment, and made it much more personal and wonderful, much more heartbreaking.

To see Angel’s happiness turn to complete dismay was just wrenching.

Thank you.

----------------

Now I am a little bit confused about next weeks episode.

The first thing that I said, outloud, and in my mind was,

“WHAT THE HELL?!”

Next week’s episode, 5x13, “Why We Fight”, looks like it has “Unleashed” potential – let’s pray not.

Dannyblue1

02-06-2004, 08:40 AM

I admit it. The end made me cry like a big girl. Which I am, but it takes a lot to make me cry over a TV show or movie. I went into this completely unspoiled, but I knew Cordy would have to go in the end since this was only a one episode deal. The way they did it was perfect. She departed with dignity, after doing what Cordy has spent years doing. Giving Angel a kick in the pants.

And I miss Cordy more than ever. This episode reminded me what she always brought to the show. A spark and energy no one else has been able to match. Besides, who else could call Angel a dork, or a lunkhead, or a dumbass, and he's okay with it? In fact, she does it to make a point, and it works.

Finally, I think the events we saw really happen. When Wesley and Angel went into the hospital room, Cordy pulled the curtain on the "patient" in the other bed because it was her, and she didn't want them to see. So, her body was in the bed the whole time, still in a coma. The Powers gave her spirit corporeal form so that she could complete her mission. But it was the real Cordy, and the "real world". At least, I'm pretty sure.

nexgod

02-06-2004, 11:40 AM

...closest to tears EVER

Big Albowski

02-06-2004, 04:52 PM

Fantastic episode!!! Charisma really brought a spark to that episode! As much as I love the show and think it great.... Cordy made it better! She will be missed.... I never saw the end coming! I thought she was leaving or ascending.... BUT NOT DIE!!!! It was like a punch to the heart... in a good "amazing moment" kind of way!

Al

Sportsweety14

02-06-2004, 06:18 PM

I was definately moved. That was an absolute perfect ending. Like it was said before Charisma Carpenter did bring a great aspect ot the show and played Cordy so well. I've been pulled over to The O.C. lately because Angel just wasn't what it used to be. I am so glad I got to see last night's episode becuase it was just amazing. I now realize Cordy was what kept me into the show and I am sad that she has left but her departure could not have been done better in my opinion.

TorchJournalist1989

02-06-2004, 08:52 PM

Hah, wow I was completely shocked at the end. I wasn't sure if Cordelia was going to stay or not, but then when Angel was on the phone, my jaw literally dropped.

I'm still a little unclear on how Cordy was being controlled and stuff from last season, but there was a period of time where I began to dislike her. And the Cordelia/Angelness (Major Buffy/Angel shipper.)

But, after the end I seriously was very sad that Cordelia died. I mean, Cordelia! Dead!? I still can't believe that she's gone...and now I realized how I really do miss her character...grr Joss.

I should've been expecting something like it though due to Buffy's 100th episode.

nexgod

02-07-2004, 01:14 PM

what happened in Buffys 100th episode?

twas a long time ago i forgot

Chase M

02-07-2004, 01:24 PM

Originally posted by nexgod
what happened in Buffys 100th episode?

twas a long time ago i forgot

Buffy died.

The 100th Episode was, "The Gift" (5x22), which was also Season Five's finale.

Originally posted by Dannyblue1
I admit it. The end made me cry like a big girl. Which I am, but it takes a lot to make me cry over a TV show or movie. I went into this completely unspoiled, but I knew Cordy would have to go in the end since this was only a one episode deal. The way they did it was perfect. She departed with dignity, after doing what Cordy has spent years doing. Giving Angel a kick in the pants.

And I miss Cordy more than ever. This episode reminded me what she always brought to the show. A spark and energy no one else has been able to match. Besides, who else could call Angel a dork, or a lunkhead, or a dumbass, and he's okay with it? In fact, she does it to make a point, and it works.

Finally, I think the events we saw really happen. When Wesley and Angel went into the hospital room, Cordy pulled the curtain on the "patient" in the other bed because it was her, and she didn't want them to see. So, her body was in the bed the whole time, still in a coma. The Powers gave her spirit corporeal form so that she could complete her mission. But it was the real Cordy, and the "real world". At least, I'm pretty sure.

Yep, that is definately what happened.

The show was lacking that "Cordy" factor, until Spike showed up and he and Angel started trading quips.

You should check out BuffyBB.net. ;) There's a good discussion going on for this episode. :cool:

nexgod

02-07-2004, 05:06 PM

oh yes gift, they APPARENTLY gave away a lot of clues about that epi in the previous epis

Chase M

02-07-2004, 05:32 PM

Originally posted by nexgod
oh yes gift, they APPARENTLY gave away a lot of clues about that epi in the previous epis

One key hint Joss gave us was Faith's riddle to Buffy during "Graduation Part II" (3x22). It gave us the exact episode when Buffy would die.

Gotta' love Joss.

:D

victoriawinters

02-07-2004, 07:56 PM

Originally posted by Dannyblue1
Finally, I think the events we saw really happen. When Wesley and Angel went into the hospital room, Cordy pulled the curtain on the "patient" in the other bed because it was her, and she didn't want them to see. So, her body was in the bed the whole time, still in a coma. The Powers gave her spirit corporeal form so that she could complete her mission. But it was the real Cordy, and the "real world". At least, I'm pretty sure. [/B]

Yes, I agree. I ended up watching the end before the beginning (bad mistake). But, I caught the patient behind the curtain when I watched it from the beginning and how she acted with covering it up and saying she didn't have a private room. It's easy to see when you are unspoiled and watching the show from the middle to the end and then from the beginning to the end or in retrograde. (Not the best way to watch it either!)

At this hospital scene, I then knew that I shot myself in the foot by not waiting before it stopped recording when I turned it on late. Ugh!

I think she also makes it clear that the PTB gave her one last shot at being in the world awake. I say this because she says, "they owed me one."

For me, this merely ended the coma drama from last season. One thing about the Sci-Fi/Horror world of Joss Wheedon is nothing is ever truly dead. At one time, Cordelia was a higher being. She is still part demon. No telling when she could or might pop up. There is also the possibility that we see in our loved departed ones in dreams or merely feel their presence.

It seemed anti-climatic with the Lindsay thing. Gosh, even the syrupy hero music during the battle! Then there he went. That left me flat. It was too easy. The world was not at stake. Hmmmm now what? It felt like one of those famous Wheedon throw me off the track things.

Lots of reference to season 1: the Doyle video, Lindsay and his first season drama, the first bad client thrown out of the window. Makes me want to see that new DVD set again and then re-watch this episode. Someone in another list recognized some music. I'm sure I would see even more watching some if not all of season 1.

While this was a really good episode, Damage is still the stand-out for me this season.

Looking forward to next week's.

Disco

02-07-2004, 11:32 PM

i only caught bits and pieces of the episode but thought the ending was terrific.

Hartski

02-09-2004, 08:12 AM

Cordy DIED!?!?!? AARRGHHH!!! I was at the bar, and was trying to watch it without sound, but some jerk HAD to watch South Park.

Dannyblue1

02-09-2004, 08:38 AM

The end of the episode was amazing. I would describe it, but I really think you have to see it, without to much advanced knowledge of what happens. Borrow a tape. Something.

Next week's episode does look interesting. What people forget is that Angel was good (mostly) for 100 years before he set foot in Sunnydale. We pretty much know what he was doing in the 150 years he was evil. What was he doing during the next century, when he was good?

Chase M

02-11-2004, 10:11 PM

Originally posted by Dannyblue1
The end of the episode was amazing. I would describe it, but I really think you have to see it, without to much advanced knowledge of what happens. Borrow a tape. Something.

Next week's episode does look interesting. What people forget is that Angel was good (mostly) for 100 years before he set foot in Sunnydale. We pretty much know what he was doing in the 150 years he was evil. What was he doing during the next century, when he was good?

Here here, I agree. And "Why We Fight" seems to explain what he, did, do when he was good for those years.

:)

Chase M

02-11-2004, 11:56 PM

Well, there isn’t enough to write about to do a comprehensive review as I can summarize this episode with the following words:

“A Reason.”

A reason for why Angel continues to fight on the side of good. He’s stuck in this gray, much like how Lawson was stuck in living purgatory for having been sired by a Vampire with a Soul. Speaking of which, did that have any affect on Lawson’s vampness?

I mean does being sired by a Vamp w/a Soul have any consequence? I suppose it did have some affect on Lawson, giving him just enough soul to have a conscience, but not enough to care about killing the innocent. I assume.

“Why We Fight” was chock full of symbolism and metaphors, and even though it seemed a bit tame, it did a good job at what it was supposed to do: Explain.

Some Notes:

-- Who the hell were these blokes? Overtly Ancient (and Stupid) and that Rasputin Lover of Loxley guy. Humourous? Yep, but in a sick way. Eww!

-- I’ve always liked Spike, even when he was doing the evil. He’s hilarious and very good at the quipping. Whapah! Quip it good!

-- I guess Spike didn’t know that Angel had a soul. He addressed him as Angelus, and treated him like a friend, instead of a foe.

I assume that this episode will be overlooked, especially when it follows a wonderful, splendor like “You’re Welcome!”

This episode was a good transition to next week’s hilarity assuming “Smile Time”, which from the looks of it will be a brilliant, daring undertaking. I just know Joss and Co. won’t disappoint.

Thanet

02-12-2004, 11:33 PM

I really liked this ep. but I'm about to kill whoever writes the trailers for the WB. It's bad enough that you can't rely on SV trailers - the one for this week's ep. of Angel was plum silly.

Angel's the only hope for our side, because Spike is the Nazi's secret weapon?

and then, we find Spike is still in his "evil is a party I was born for" stage, and only likes wearing the SS jacket, while Angel is blackmailed into helping the Allies, and only does it because they make him.

Sheesh! What, are they afraid of, the trailers giving the story away?

Chase M

02-14-2004, 02:57 AM

I am in a state of utter disbelief at the WB Network and FOX's decision to end ANGEL after Season Five - against - Joss's wishes. That's fricken' blasphemy! I just don't know what the WB is thinking. Joss's fans are the most dedicated people I've ever known, and believe me when I say we will not take this sitting on our asses. We will fight to the very end, and believe me, we make our voices heard.

There is SO much left that NEEDS to be told, and Joss DESERVES another season, dammit.

If you want to do your part to support this cause then please go to http://www.petitiononline.com/angels6 and sign the petition. Every little bit helps, even that petition.

I can't ****ing believe it.

MadCow

02-14-2004, 03:18 AM

I'm absolutely gutted. There isn't enough time to wrap the whole story and that whole possibility of ending it in a film will never happen!!!!!

There's nothing on TV as it is and now this is ending!!!!!!!

Very upset :( :( :( :( :(

UltraMadCow

Chase M

02-14-2004, 03:29 AM

Originally posted by MadCow
I'm absolutely gutted. There isn't enough time to wrap the whole story and that whole possibility of ending it in a film will never happen!!!!!

There's nothing on TV as it is and now this is ending!!!!!!!

Very upset :( :( :( :( :(

UltraMadCow

I know exactly how you feel. :(

When I opened Outlook Express and saw the heading, "ANGEL IS CANCELLED", my heart stopped for a moment and my stomach went into convulsions.

And yes, there is nothing good left on TV (aside from Smallville, I suppose). Gah, I just can't believe it's over -- again. :(

KalsElle

02-14-2004, 04:16 AM

What is the matter with the suits at the WB??? Angel needs at least another season.

Off to sign the petition.:mad:

Ruby Red

02-14-2004, 05:30 AM

Before i got into Smallville, Angel was my show. I loved the main character, his story, the background, the works. I'd never gotten into a show so much. I've been a faithful follower of Angel for the entire time it's been on tv.

I'm absolutely gutted. I'm appalled at the sparkling gushing write up (though deserved) that the <bleeps> at the WB gave the actors and the show and then stick the damned knife in!!!!...

This show had at least another season left in it, it's not ready to finish. But i suppose the executives think that border line bargain basement television is the way to go, or hey, lets can one vampire show and replace it with another vampire show!,

I'm absolutely furious at this stupid decision and i've already signed the petition. I'll leave it there.....

LexFactor

02-14-2004, 05:35 AM

I've just read about that, its a shame Angel is a good show. Not much of a surprise though i read that this was likely to happen a while ago.

vyperman7

02-14-2004, 05:45 AM

All I can say is damnit!! Angel is seriously one of the best shows on TV right now. It should at least be able to go one more season. David Boreanaz is probably upset right now, because he has gone on record saying that there was going to be a sixth season.

I hope they give Angel a proper send off. I am worried that the ending may suck, because Josh is probably going to feel rushed when figuring out how to end the show.

rumpuso

02-14-2004, 05:56 AM

I used to be the hugest Buffy and Angel fan. I still watch reruns of Buffy when they are on. I think JW is quite a clever writer and no series has been able to be as witty as either one of these 2 shows. I must admit, though, that I lost that loving feeling for Angel last season. It stopped holding my attention and was just too ridiculous and dreary. However, I just said to my husband the other day that I've been watching Angel again this season (the 100th episode was fantastic!) and that I think it's come around and has new life again. I've recently been enjoying the pairing of Smallville and Angel. Good things don't last I guess.

On the more interesting side, I bet JW will pull out all the stops to bring Buffy back to the Angel universe for the send off. Even though I hate to see the end of this show, especially since it's been rejuvinated, JW will give it one hellofa send off.

EDITED: Petition signed!

Food for thought: Any chance UPN will pick up Angel as they did Buffy????

Arista 07

02-14-2004, 10:05 AM

Well this sucks...

I must admit, I'm not the most devoted Angel fan. I'm more like that casual viewer that watched Buffy avidly, but tunes into the spinoff every so often. Angel can be a very gimmicky show, but I watched the 100th episode, and all I could say was "Wow!" It's sad the show is (maybe) going to end so abruptly. Follwoing the storylines and reading the spoilers ahead, there is no way that JS can do what he intended with the amount of shows left this season. THE GUY'S A GENIUS, LET HIM PAINT HIS MASTERPIECE! Anyway, I'll definitely sign the petition. My Angel fan firends will as well.

Mr Boejangles

02-14-2004, 10:43 AM

i feel sorry for all you angel fans... i couldnt imagine SV being cancelled

LanaandPete

02-14-2004, 11:01 AM

Man there is no way that Angel could end off good. I have spoilers till ep 20 and if 22 is the end. then it will be a rushed.

[Editted for spoilers -- just because it isn't Smallville doesn't mean you can ruin it for everyone else. I catch it again, and I'm warning you, okay? -- Chiri]

nexgod

02-14-2004, 11:20 AM

gee thanks for that spoiler........

Great Caesar's Ghost

02-14-2004, 12:22 PM

Ruby Red might be on to something. I posted in the Dark Shadows thread that I was afraid people would compare Shadows to Angel just because they both have vampires.

This decision could be all about making room for Dark Shadows, regardless of how many stories Angel might have left to tell. Craig touches on this at Barnabas Undead.

But to be fair...from a business point of view, does a network need two vampire shows? They probably decided keeping Angel around for another year would hurt Dark Shadows' chances of catching on. The choice: one year of Angel or multiple years of Dark Shadows?

Personally, I think everyone who watches Angel would have watched both shows. But the suits were probably looking toward mainstream perception.

First Firefly, now Angel...poor Joss.

KSiteTV

02-14-2004, 12:36 PM

I still wouldn't be surprised if this was a mutual decision between the network and Joss. I actually lost interest in watching Angel, because there were so many good characters on there but none were being used to their full potential. Plus the Wolfram & Hart stuff confused me, yet, I didn't care to know the hows and whys of it.

But with that being said... I wish the WB had ordered a shorter, 13-episode or so sixth season, to give them time to wrap everything up. But who knows? The actors may have been only contracted for five, making an extension just too much of a headache.

lucky 12

02-14-2004, 01:15 PM

I can't believe they're going to cancel Angel! :mad: I really like that show! I guess I'll go sign the petition.

Hopefulsuicide

02-14-2004, 02:16 PM

Maybe its some kind of sick joke... i mean i havent even seen the new season cause i live in england, but i know they wouldnt be able to wrap something up so quickly very well... i mean look at what happened with roswell... they tried to cram everything into the last few episodes and while it was still good, it could have been better...

i just cant believe this... i mean buffy has gone, angel now, roswell, and people are saying smallville will onl;y have 4 seasons.... what'll be left?

nexgod

02-14-2004, 04:42 PM

charmed.....*sighs*

MadCow

02-14-2004, 04:54 PM

Originally posted by nexgod
charmed.....*sighs*

Man, are we in trouble!! ;)

MadCow

Ruby Red

02-14-2004, 05:03 PM

I'm still unable to comprehend that Charmed got a seventh season but Angel, in my opinion, a far more superior show got cancelled after five... where is the logic in that?

And on the Bronzebeta message board, Joss has posted and he is saying that he had no idea that the WB were about to pull the plug like they did. He's not a happy chap at the moment.

The petition currently has more than 13,000 signatures on it. Keep signing, get your friends to sign, the more the merrier!!!.

Buffyishot!!!

02-14-2004, 05:58 PM

Sign this petition,it has 14419 signatures so far,it needs so much more.Damn the WB to hell for this.

http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?ai5d0162

Chase M

02-14-2004, 10:36 PM

http://www.bronzebeta.com/Archive/BronzeArchive1076801504.htm

Yep, I read (and archived) Joss's words on BronzeBeta.

I don't honestly know what the WB is thinking. They must have some comprehension to grasp the fact that Joss has the biggest, most dedicated/devoted/intellectual fans behind a show.

I mean, christ, the outpour they are going to be getting should alert them of that fact, and if not, then to hell with them. Those bastards.

Joss and Co. dwarf EVER OTHER SHOW on the WB in terms of writing and directing. What show has the same quality? Smallville? One Tree Hill? Charmed? And as for other shows, The OC? Please. I just don't know their reasoning. Is it the budget? As I'm sure Joss could cut back and still produce a quality show that would run circles around 99% of the garbage that is on TV right now.

I think it's because he runs a show that doesn't follow the current trend or style. It quite frankly is because he HASN'T sold out to the mainstream, and for that I am very-VERY irrate, totally feel for Joss and Co.

We can only hope for the best, and HOPE the WB does the RIGHT THING for once.

-Chase

reddevil

02-15-2004, 12:31 AM

yes this does suck big time

Hopefulsuicide

02-15-2004, 06:05 AM

what more do they want from joss wheddon. He created two shows that have given them some of the best moments ever, and they decide to just foget all that.

Maybe if he got three hot girls in bathing suits ot caress angels bare chest the WB would re think

rumpuso

02-15-2004, 06:44 AM

Chase, can you copy and paste Joss Whedon's response? I scrolled through the link you provided and all I saw were everyone's condolensces, but Joss' response was posted an hour prior. Would you mind bringing it over here? I'd love to read it.

Zooks

02-15-2004, 09:22 AM

It's good to see WB following in FOX's footsteps in cancelling great shows. They only gave Buffy five years. They only gave Angel five years. Chances are that Smallville will follow this pattern.

MadCow

02-15-2004, 09:26 AM

It seems that there are two different petitions, one has around 8000 signatures the other around 18000.

MadCow

nexgod

02-15-2004, 10:03 AM

i couldnt see anything either, i found this though

http://www.bronzebeta.com/Archive/Joss/JossArchive.htm

Chase M

02-15-2004, 05:23 PM

http://www.buffy.nu/article.php3?id_article=3254

^Right there, mates.

-Chase

Big Albowski

02-15-2004, 05:34 PM

It's official.... Good TV shows get the shaft! Losing Angel is a travesty of programming decision-making!

Al

Rack

02-16-2004, 02:00 AM

I'm extremely PO'd right now. Hopefully fox will pick the show up. I don't understand why they're cancelling it. Most of my closest friends love Angel. Whoever's making these decisions for the WB needs to be whacked upside the head with a sledge hammer.

I signed the petition. Hopefully it will be enough to get those bozos to give it AT LEAST one more season.

shattered

02-16-2004, 02:28 AM

Originally posted by Mr Boejangles
i feel sorry for all you angel fans... i couldnt imagine SV being cancelled

Yup ditto to that. I feel sorry for all of you Angel fans, i would be very upset if they cancelled SV or Charmed :(

xxx

Chase M

02-16-2004, 03:04 AM

Originally posted by shattered
Yup ditto to that. I feel sorry for all of you Angel fans, i would be very upset if they cancelled SV or Charmed :(

xxx

Thanks you two, we appreciate it. :)

*faxes Jordan Levin*

We'll all go down fighting though! :D

Chase M

02-16-2004, 02:57 PM

I have made a commitment to send eight faxes a day to Jordan Levin. As the only way to have a chance at keeping ANGEL alive is to make sure they never forget.

Here's one of the documents I fax:

Save ANGEL #3 (http://members.lycos.co.uk/emmasangelus/angelfax3.doc)

And here are the others:

Save ANGEL #1 (http://members.lycos.co.uk/emmasangelus/angelfax1.doc)

Save ANGEL #2 (http://members.lycos.co.uk/emmasangelus/angelfax2.doc)

Jordan Levin's fax number is included in the documents, and make sure to include a "1" before the "818."

If you want to help, please do!

:)

Hessu Hopo

02-16-2004, 03:28 PM

As you may already know... they (WB) are going to bring Angel to it's end. Fifth season is going to be the last one. That is the worst decision WB has ever done! Angel has been one of the top rated shows on WB. My opinion is that this show was stronger this year than it has ever been. There are many holes in the story which needs to be explained and there is no way Joss Whedon with all his actors and writers can tell everything with few episodes which they have left. There is just no way to do it! It's going to fail to end as it should. Also we wont be seeing SMG in last episodes. So, are we really going to let WB do this to Angel?
I have watched every episode of Smallville and Angel. I don't know how many of you watch Angel in addition to Smallville on Wednesday nights but if you happen to like this serie I suggest you visit this website: http://www.petitiononline.com/angels6/
Take part in to this petition and maybe we can get atleast one more season to Angel. Then JW could end the series atleast with a style.
The WB did not air more than 5 seasons of Buffy and it found a home at another network. Now WB does the same thing to Angel! Can you believe them? Probably smallville will get the same treatment at the end of it's fifth season. :lol: Yea, that really sucks. We can still get Angel moved to another station if WB doesn't want to take it back. So please all fans of smallville help us Angel fans out. I would help to keep Smallville on TV too if it was needed. By the way... Smallville kicks ass! :D

Please, it takes only less than a minute to participate this petition.

You just tell your name, few comments: that you want season6 and e-mail address... that's all!

http://www.petitiononline.com/angels6/

NEW! GO to this website (too) and fote for Angel!

http://www.savemyshow.com/wb.htm

Chase M

02-16-2004, 03:31 PM

...

I created a thread already in the "Other Shows" forum. I don't believe this thread is neccessary, but the thought is appreciated.

And also, this is not the way to go about it, a little more professionalism please. :)

Grendel

02-16-2004, 03:59 PM

One more season is all it needs. Too much has been introduced this season not to and I want just one last appearance by Angelus.

Chase M

02-16-2004, 04:15 PM

Originally posted by Grendel
One more season is all it needs. Too much has been introduced this season not to and I want just one last appearance by Angelus.

Most definately.

--------

I have also come up with an idea.

Every morning Fox News has "Fox & Friends" on at 3am PT/6am ET (I think), and every morning they take live comments from callers.

So I'm going to try to get past the screeners and say, on-air, "Thank you Joss, and SAVE ANGEL!"

We have to do what ever is possible, if the fans of Family Guy can save their show, we -- the MOST DEDICATED FANS I have ever known -- can surely save ours.

:cool:

Hessu Hopo

02-16-2004, 06:30 PM

Thanks for the banner Chase M.! ;)

The reason why I didn't have any better thread posted is that im kinda new at this... I was just so SHOCKED when I heard about Angels cancellation. I had to do something even though I had never before posted anything to any Message Forum. I also thought that there weren't anyone else on Kryptonsite who would post anything about Angel. Im glad that I was wrong.

But even if we get people in Kryptonsite to participate this petition it isn't enough? So im asking. Any ideas what to do? I have already told about this petition on few chat rooms, few websites and my friends. Im also wondering how many partisipants do we need to this petition that it has any influence on WB or other network. Any idea anyone? ;)

Atleast one thing im sure of. We got to fight! No giving up because there is chance to get Angels sixth season. By the way, has there been any situation like this before with other series? And has it done any good to those series that fans have complained and so on? :confused:

Kal 3L

02-16-2004, 07:39 PM

thanks..will sign!

Hessu Hopo

02-17-2004, 09:25 AM

I got some good news! Now I know how we can actually make a difference!
From www.buffy.nu site I found an article which was From James Marsters Official Forum. There JM said that it is probably no use to participate in these petitions but he told us a way to bring Angel back. But just in case please participate! ;) Im going to send as many postcards as I can afford. If you want so SAVE Angel you better do the same. :)

ATTENTION!! 23.2.04
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OH NO... IT HAS COME TO MY ATTENSION THAT NOT EVERY ADDRESS HERE ARE REALLY THERE!!!!! I Post these correction soon...

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1. Go and buy some postcards that show scenes from your city. Tourist postcards. Postcards that have the name of your town or city or area of the country on them. You don’t need anything fancy, just something that will show immediately where you are located so they know this is coming from all over.

2. Write a short message on the postcard in your own words saying that you want Angel to be renewed and support the show. Keep it positive. Don’t be insulting. Don’t be abusive.

3. Address the postcard to one of the people on the list of addresses in this message. Levin may ignore the cards coming into the WB, but the media outlets will see there’s a story in this and publicize it. The names on the list are in order of importance so start at the top and send as many postcards as you want to (or can afford to send).

4. Go and get at least six friends who probably aren’t reading this on the internet but would be willing to send postcards, and get them to do the same thing.

5. DO IT TOMORROW! Speed of response is what counts along with the size of the response. Don’t wait for instructions from some group. Just DO IT.

ATTENTION!! 23.2.04
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OH NO... IT HAS COME TO MY ATTENSION THAT NOT EVERY ADDRESS HERE ARE REALLY THERE!!!!! I Post these correction soon...

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Here are the addresses to mail your cards to:

Matt Roush
TV Guide
Box 500
Radnor, PA 19088-0500

The Hollywood Reporter
Attn: Cynthia Littleton
5055 Wilshire Blvd.
Los Angeles, CA 90036-4396

Entertainment Tonight,
Paramount Pictures Domestic TV
Roddenberry Building
5555 Melrose Avenue
Hollywood, CA 90038

Extra
Warner Bros
4000 Warner Blvd.
Triangle Building, 4th Floor
Burbank, CA 91522

Entertainment Weekly
1675 Broadway New York
NY 10019

ATTENTION!! 23.2.04
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OH NO... IT HAS COME TO MY ATTENSION THAT NOT EVERY ADDRESS HERE ARE REALLY THERE!!!!! I Post these correction soon...

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TNT is the best possibility to pick up Angel since they’ve gotten good ratings with the reruns and do some original programming.

Turner Network Television
Attn: Robert DeBitetto (pres, original programming)
1888 Century Park East, 14th Fl.
Los Angeles, CA 90067

Turner Network Television
Attn: Julie Wietz (exec vp. original programming)
1888 Century Park East, 14th Fl.
Los Angeles, CA 90067

Turner Network Television
Attn: Attn: Mr. Jamie Kellner, Chairman and CEO
1050 Techwood Dr. NW
Atlanta, GA 30318

Turner Network Television
Attn: Garth Ancier, Executive Vice-President, Programming
1050 Techwood Dr. NW
Atlanta, GA 30318

Rumor is that Levin doesn’t accept cards or letters and they get returned, but a flood of mail might make news even if it doesn’t get through

Warner Brothers Network
Attn: Jordan Levin, CEO
4000 Warner Blvd., Building 34R
Burbank, CA 91522
(818) 977-5000

ATTENTION!! 23.2.04
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OH NO... IT HAS COME TO MY ATTENSION THAT NOT EVERY ADDRESS HERE ARE REALLY THERE!!!!! I Post these correction soon...

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*

And, if you want to send cards to Joss to express support and let him know the level of interest, here’s where to send them:

Joss Whedon
C/o Mutant Enemy Productions
PO Box 900
Beverly Hills, CA 90213

And to send cards supporting the cast and crew:

Angel Productions
20th Century Fox
PO Box, 900
Beverly Hills
CA, 90213-0900

Now, if you actually want to accomplish something, make some news, and maybe, just maybe, get a sixth season for Angel...

ATTENTION!! 23.2.04
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OH NO... IT HAS COME TO MY ATTENSION THAT NOT EVERY ADDRESS HERE ARE REALLY THERE!!!!! I Post these correction soon...

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Hessu Hopo

02-17-2004, 09:36 AM

I found a way to SAVE Angel! Go to this web site:

http://www.buffy.nu/article.php3?id_article=3258

ATTENTION!! 23.2.04
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OH NO... IT HAS COME TO MY ATTENSION THAT NOT EVERY ADDRESS HERE ARE REALLY THERE!!!!! I Post these correction soon...

AND probably JM didn't actually write these addresses...

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There James Marsters tells how to make our favorite show renewed. I am going to send as many post cards as I can afford. If you want to SAVE Angel you better do the same!

P.S. It takes so much room to give all addresses here so you can find them from here:
http://www.buffy.nu/article.php3?id_article=3258 :D

ATTENTION!! 23.2.04
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OH NO... IT HAS COME TO MY ATTENSION THAT NOT EVERY ADDRESS HERE ARE REALLY THERE!!!!! I Post these correction soon...

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Beady Eyes

02-17-2004, 10:24 AM

Well, for all the good it did, I signed the petition. I will grab some postcards tomorrow and send them out. This is all very disapointing.

Buffy was at least allowed to end with a sense of completness. The WB should be ashamed of their decsion. It is an insult to years of loylaty by Angels many fans.

Joss has always done right by fans and I hope he doesn't let this detract from all the great stories he has told over the last seven years. Here's looking forward to the next project and a more supportive nettwork!

Watcher

02-17-2004, 10:57 AM

Originally posted by KalsElle
What is the matter with the suits at the WB???

Two words for you: Dark Shadows. There seems to be only room for one vampire star in WB's constellation. They're probably afraid the "masses" (that'd be us) will be confused by *two* vampire shows. Just remember, these are the folks that won't make a Superman movie whille Smallville is on the air because of the risk of "confusing the viewers". I imagine they don't want two vampire shows on their network at the same time for that reason as well.

victoriawinters

02-17-2004, 10:03 PM

Originally posted by Watcher
Two words for you: Dark Shadows. There seems to be only room for one vampire star in WB's constellation. They're probably afraid the "masses" (that'd be us) will be confused by *two* vampire shows. Just remember, these are the folks that won't make a Superman movie while Smallville is on the air because of the risk of "confusing the viewers". I imagine they don't want two vampire shows on their network at the same time for that reason as well.

If I have to hear this one more time, I'm just going to scream! Quote your facts because I have not seen this as a reason given. Because, the facts as I have read in article after article are not bearing this out. The only reason I've seen so far is that WB needs more room for newer shows (emphasis on plural new shows), repeat room so that new episodes can repeat in the same week and reality programming. Oh yes, and *shudders* Charmed. (Sorry Charmed fans.)

Show me too where Dark Shadows is getting picked-up by the WB network. It's not even being filmed yet. It's not by any means a done deal.

Has anyone forgotten what hell we went through last season and the drama over whether or not they would renew for the fifth season? Remember too how they used to constantly change the day when the show would come on? First on Sunday then on Wednesday then back on Sunday then finally on Wednesday. It was enough to make me crazy! They didn't even bother to update their AIM icons on their web page with the show day change! Dark Shadows wasn't even on the radar then. WB has had it out for this show since last year. I think we all know this but we want a reason and if Dark Shadows can be it. Well there let this new vampire show be it.

It's just not reasoning out for me here to blame Angel's cancellation on Dark Shadows is getting a pilot. I think it's moron TV Executives out to get a buck and quality programming be damned.

Let's call the demon by its name, Jordan Levin.

Hessu Hopo

02-18-2004, 03:30 AM

Yea, I found another site. Look for WB and then vote for Angel. Because there are many shows... you know. ;)

http://www.savemyshow.com/wb.htm

Try to look other shows too and compere to Angel.
Angel has one of the best save my show vote ratings! But still just Yes:11406/ No:302 votes SO GET YOUR BUTT THERE NOW!

We will get Angel back!

Hessu Hopo

02-18-2004, 03:36 AM

rumpuso

02-18-2004, 08:01 AM

I realize I'm risking getting Angel fans upset by my next comment, but I'm disappointed that after finding out about Angel's cancellation that the very next episode to air is the one where Angel gets turned into a puppet. Now, I want to believe this will turn out to be a clever episode, but the previews make it look unwatchable for me and that is disappointing given that I want to support them on their way out.

Hartski

02-18-2004, 08:10 AM

I think the puppet episode looks hilarious!! On the preview when Spike says, "You're a bloody puppet!" I was laughing so hard, I almost peed my pants. I'm really looking foreward to it tonight.

Dannyblue1

02-18-2004, 09:30 AM

I'd find it hard to believe if the possibility of having a new DARK SHADOWS series didn't at least play a small part in the decision to cancel ANGEL. I mean, the news that the WB was considering a new DS came out quite a while a go. It has all the earmarks of what they tried to do with TARZAN, promoting the show long before it aired to build up anticipation. Plus, the fact that there's already a big name connected to the DS project makes me think it's more likely to make it to air than not. And, considering the similarities between the shows, I really doubt the WB would've wanted to be airing them at the same time. To many chances for comparison.

A possible DS series might not have been the only factor, but I think it had to play a part.

Great Caesar's Ghost

02-18-2004, 03:47 PM

Joss says he's going to ask Sarah to come back for the final episode. Hope she says yes.

Dannyblue1

02-18-2004, 03:54 PM

Originally posted by Great Caesar's Ghost
Joss says he's going to ask Sarah to come back for the final episode. Hope she says yes.

I really hope she doesn't. One of the worst things ANGEL did was jump back into BtVS's shadow after doing a pretty good job of standing on its own for 4 seasons. By going back into that shadow (in fact, the whole season has been about "When will Buffy show up so Angel and Spike can fight over her?") they pretty much put themselves back into the "It's just a spin-off" category for a lot of people. Not me, because I always thought of ANGEL as it's own thing. But the fact that people are more concerned with whether or not Buffy will come back than they are about the show ending with a great run of episodes really discounts all the wonderful things they did in seasons 1 to 4, where Buffy was rarely, if ever, even mentioned.

Here's a fun fact. A lot of the people who watch ANGEL have either never seen BtVS, or started watching BtVS after ANGEL. Which means, for a lot of those ANGEL fans, Buffy (who only appeared in two eps of ANGEL back in season 1) isn't the be all and end all of the show. Angel, and the rest of the characters, are.

nexgod

02-18-2004, 04:35 PM

she HAS to come back, it'll be like when Angel came back for Buffys finale

Chase M

02-18-2004, 05:36 PM

Well David Boreanaz sounded pretty upset at SMG, questioning whether or not she really cares about her fans, or has he put it,

"If Sarah were to come back for a final farewell - like I did for her on her series finale - that would be fantastic ... It’s not like you do a 50 or 100 episodes of a show and say, ’Screw you.’ You have a responsibility to your fans."

Now for those who know when that was really quoted, which was on February 12 2004, you realize that it was BEFORE the announcement of ANGEL's next season scenario. Although that is the case, it STILL shows that SMG is [possibly] turning her back on ALL of her fans.

And if she doesn't make a return for the SERIES finale, if that is the case, I will personally be very-VERY upset.

MadCow

02-18-2004, 05:44 PM

SMG has basically said in a couple of interviews that she thinks any guest spots on TV (read that as Angel) wouldn't sit well with her burgeoning film career. Kind of made me think...who do you think you are? Frankly I'd rather she didn't appear in the season finale.

Besides, hasn't Joss already said that they're going ahead with the season finale they already had planned. I'd rather it ended like that than try to fit everything intp a few episodes.

MadCow

Chase M

02-18-2004, 06:38 PM

Originally posted by MadCow
SMG has basically said in a couple of interviews that she thinks any guest spots on TV (read that as Angel) wouldn't sit well with her burgeoning film career. Kind of made me think...who do you think you are? Frankly I'd rather she didn't appear in the season finale.

Besides, hasn't Joss already said that they're going ahead with the season finale they already had planned. I'd rather it ended like that than try to fit everything intp a few episodes.

MadCow

Firstly:

Hahaha, love your signature! :D

Secondly:

Yep! Joss has said that they will go with the planned Season Finale, and you know Joss, if he says it's good - then it's great.

"In Joss, We Trust."

:cool:

MadCow

02-18-2004, 06:45 PM

Originally posted by Chase M
"In Joss, We Trust."

Absolutely.

UtterlyJP

02-18-2004, 08:29 PM

Yeah it really stinks about Angel being cancelled. I especially liked tonight's episode with the puppet and next weeks episode looks like it'll be good considering it was written and directed by the man.

Ultimatemother

02-19-2004, 12:35 PM

It still grates at my nerves that they keep shows like CHARMED and REBA when Angel is quality tv. Charmed dropped the ball along time ago with its cheesiness levels. Frankly after Shannen left it went downhill. ALl so ppl get to see Alyssa 's chest. Id rather look at the cast of Angel. GEEZ what a ripoff.

Chase M

02-20-2004, 05:36 AM

I was going to change the topic title to, " ANGEL cancellation comments & 'Save ANGEL' campaign KSite HQ ", but .. well.. I can't.

Anyway though. :)

I've been faxing daily, and have done the postcard idea that James [Marsters] himself came up with.

I won't rest until we get some media coverage. :D

Chase M

02-20-2004, 06:39 AM

||SPOILERSPACE -- It's time to sing for Lorne now / It's time to fight the fights / It's time to meet the demons / On the Angel Show tonight.

It's time to put on game face / It's time to spit at Spike / It's time to drop the curtain / On the Angel Show tonight.

Why did we join this law firm / I guess we'll never know / Even if they were guilty / We got off another Joe ||

Those damn puppets scared scared the bajeezus out of me. Evil little buggers.

Firstly, I really don't like Nina. As not just did "Unleashed" leave a sour taste in my mouth, but I just don't like her character, and I really don't want to see her in an episode again. There's just too much to concentrate on aside from Nina wanting to shag Angel and vice-versa.

I loved the way dialogue was used in this episode.

*Wesley going off about Angel and Nina while underlaying his problems with Fred*

Angel: “Who are we talking about?”

*Fred enters the doorway, and Wes addressed Fred as well as answering Angel's question*

Wesley: “Fred.”

That happens at least two other times during this episode. I was all for that type of dialogue, and felt it was well used.

It has also been a while since we last heard about the whole Fred and Knox situation, and it is apparent (quite obviously) that there was nothing serious going on between them. Infact, it seems that Fred was actually annoyed with Knox and was just being nice to him. Possibly pitying him.

Oh, and that "Self-Esteem" song. I don't know, I suppose it fits the theme of the show, but in general, I found it very irritating and sort of took some of the moment away from Fred and Wesley.

Speaking of which. Finally!

I, personally, have been waiting to see Fred and Wesley take their relationship to that "Relationship-level" for quite some time, and was very pleased with Fred taking the first and final move towards that level.

Sidetracked,

When Angel Puppet turned into Vampfaced Angel Puppet, I started laughing my head off just as much as I did when I first saw the Angel 'pet. The frown and brow were dead on, and just made me chuckle quite a bit. :D Oh and Spike's reaction to Angel was just humourous with a capital "H".

"You're a bloody puppet!"
*smiles widely*

Now about Gunn. It looks like our lone streetfighter may have made a deal with the devil (as many of you have already said). I also concur with the notion that it will come back to bite Angel and Co. in the butt. Or possibly lead to Gunn's demise.

Some notes:

-Did being a puppet allow Angel to go out into the sunlight?

-I think know, but has Angel's memory erasing deal have an effect on Wesley? I don't know, but it seems like it.

Next week's episode, 'A Hole in the World', is written by Jesus [Joss] himself, and from the looks of it will probably have me crying like a little girl if I think what is going to happen, happens.

Fred! :(

Hartski

02-20-2004, 08:17 AM

I loved this episode for so many reasons!
Spike-"You're a bloody puppet!"
"You're a wee little puppet man!"
Fred with a gun-sooooo hot.
Lorne-"Medic! Doctor! Is there a Geppetto in the house?"
Gameface Angel Puppet was awesome!
Nina nekkid-you can see nip if you frame-by-frame(not that I tried)

Kal 3L

02-20-2004, 12:54 PM

That was such a great episode! My favorite line had to be when Spike said "You're a bloody puppet!" :rotfl:

Hartski

02-20-2004, 01:00 PM

Check out the new Avatar!

Ultimatemother

02-20-2004, 01:22 PM

Awesome episode indeed.
Chase,
I am not feeling the Nina-Love either. But what was funny was when he is talking to her and she wolfs out and grabs puppet!Angel. truly a creepy episode with the dude and the puppet with the hand in his back.eeeeeeeeeee!

nexgod

02-20-2004, 02:53 PM

i just think she is hot

and by far the funniest episode ever

Big Albowski

02-20-2004, 03:46 PM

Fantastic episode!!! The Angel puppet was great and I laughed so hard I had tears in my eyes! Spike and puppetAngel fight was great! Did anyone wonder why Spike lost the last car in "the drink"? He's having adventures we are not seeing!!!! The slow-mo shot of the gang being led by a sword-wielding puppet.... classic!!
I just can't believe the WB cancelled this show!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Al

karyn

02-20-2004, 04:01 PM

d00d, funniest line was by lorne

"is there a jepeto in the house????"

i literally keeled over laughing

only joss and co could pull something like this off...it was evil lol just plain wrong and evil in ever right way...

Chase M

02-20-2004, 07:26 PM

Originally posted by Ultimatemother
Awesome episode indeed.
Chase,
I am not feeling the Nina-Love either. But what was funny was when he is talking to her and she wolfs out and grabs puppet!Angel. truly a creepy episode with the dude and the puppet with the hand in his back.eeeeeeeeeee!

Yep! I knew that was coming too, as soon as the camera panned away from Nina. :D

Oh definately, the creator who had the whole in his back was just really creepy. I was like, " *shivers* ."

Chase M

02-21-2004, 02:08 AM

Originally posted by MadCow
Absolutely.

Yep, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

Originally posted by Ultimatemother
It still grates at my nerves that they keep shows like CHARMED and REBA when Angel is quality tv. Charmed dropped the ball along time ago with its cheesiness levels. Frankly after Shannen left it went downhill. ALl so ppl get to see Alyssa 's chest. Id rather look at the cast of Angel. GEEZ what a ripoff.

I totally concur.

Reba? Eww. Steve Harvey's Big Time? Yuck.

The WB's reasoning is VERY unorthodox. Very.

Hessu Hopo

02-21-2004, 05:22 AM

Chase M,
It seems that you have new banner in your every post... I thought this new banner would have link in it but it doesn't. I said just in case if you wanted it so... :D

I have found some more links to other Angel fan pages.
Which are by the way very professional. They tell you how to help Save Angel. I must say im relieved that there are sites like this:

http://saveangel.org/

AND

http://www.renewangel.com/

After you know these sites you go to their message boards and then you know everything you need to know. Trust me!

;)

Hessu Hopo

02-21-2004, 05:25 AM

I have found some more links to other Angel fan pages.
Which are by the way very professional. They tell you how to help Save Angel. I must say im relieved that there are sites like this:

http://saveangel.org/

AND

http://www.renewangel.com/

After you know these sites you go to their message boards and then you know everything you need to know. Trust me!

;)

nexgod

02-21-2004, 05:49 AM

petition never work

nexgod

02-21-2004, 05:50 AM

i didnt know that was coming!!
But that wolf hand looked fake

Chase M

02-21-2004, 03:04 PM

Originally posted by Hessu Hopo
Chase M,
It seems that you have new banner in your every post... I thought this new banner would have link in it but it doesn't. I said just in case if you wanted it so... :D

I have found some more links to other Angel fan pages.
Which are by the way very professional. They tell you how to help Save Angel. I must say im relieved that there are sites like this:

http://saveangel.org/

AND

http://www.renewangel.com/

After you know these sites you go to their message boards and then you know everything you need to know. Trust me!

;)

Kudos to Double H. :D

Awesome 'sites, thanks man.

:cool:

Chase M

02-22-2004, 03:04 PM

My friend Kim made a very informative 'site. Check it out.

http://www.clowningglory.com/j/angel/

It has every bit of information that one would need.

Kudos to her.

:D

Hessu Hopo

02-22-2004, 05:01 PM

Now I give you (probably) the BEST Angel support site out there.

This site actually shows how much it has gathered funds for our cause so if you have missed this one...

Then you better check this one out too!

http://www.savingangel.com/

I have chosen five addresses where I am going to send my post cards. Only problem is that im not so good to write letters and what makes it harder is that I have some problems in English. Like doing stupid word errors like fote which means vote. ;)
My English Is not perfect I meant. :rolleyes:

So is there someone who can help me out? How should I start my letters to Joss Whedon or Cast and some pointers what to write to them. Because I would write so much but that could spoil my letters. So help me out? I would be very happy! :eek:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"James Marsters" Letter Corrections

ANGELians,

Distribute this to your groups, please:

SUGGESTION: Networks and media are rumored to be tossing sealed envelopes since the anthrax scare of a couple years ago. While I've seen no source to confirm this, it may be a good idea to look at another approach. A good
number of the Angel fans are writing letters, and there's been a widely circulated list of addresses that people are sending them to. I'm concerned that their efforts, however, may be for naught, if the letters are disposed
of or returned in bulk, without even being seen. Postcards are an excellent option, naturally, but many people want to be able to say more than fits on the back of a 4"x6" card.

I suggest an alternative that might make the cut: write on heavier stock paper, fold and staple that closed, rather than using an envelope.

Jeffrey Malbisse of Josh’s Stakehouse suggests a further refinement of the idea -- make the folded paper into your own postcard!

You can decorate it how you like, and it will obviously not be a threat to anybody.

Now, onto the corrections:

1) As much as we wish he did, I believe that James Marsters did not *personally* send out the material which has been circulating across the Net. It is reported to come from a James Marsters forum, and does contain some excellent advice for the most part, but has some errors in the listing of executives to write to.

2) Turner Network Television is a subsidiary of TBS, which also owns The WB.

There's been a LOT of shuffling at the networks, so please double check the names and addresses of people you're targeting. A good resource is Yahoo, which offers reports on companies, like this one for The WB:

The following executives are *not* at TNT -- DO NOT write them at those addresses:

> Turner Network Television
> Attn: Attn: Mr. Jamie Kellner, Chairman and CEO

> Turner Network Television
> Attn:Garth Ancier,Executive Vice-President,

Mr. Kellner was one of the original founders of both the Fox network *and* The WB. For almost two years, he was the Chairman of the entire TBS empire after Time-Warner bought out Ted's company. Under pressure, he stepped down
last year -- probably due to culture clashes. His replacement was former CNN President Phil Kent.

Kellner still heads The WB since it was "his baby" but announced that he'll be retiring in April. Garth Ancier (see below) and your favorite TV exec, Jordan Levin, have been splitting his duties. (That's why each is called
Co-something.)

Mr. Kellner's made a lot of money when he sold out his interest in The WB, and now that he's retiring, he probably doesn't care what you think anymore -- in other words, don't bother writing him.

See:

NOTE: Jed Petrick was the President and COO of The WB, and was supposed to be part of a troika of WB execs after Kellner left, but in January "resigned" or was pushed out himself. Like Kellner, he's merely holding the seat warm until April. Ancier and Levin are running the whole show. DO NOT WRITE to Mr. Petrick!

However, we DEFINITELY MUST target Garth Ancier, who would probably be surprised if he didn't get lots of mail, so note the correct information:

Mr. Ancier is the Co-Chairman of The WB. Before returning to The WB, he was an Executive VP at the TBS, under Jamie Kellner. Prior to that, he was briefly President of Entertainment at NBC, where he took the fall for dropped ratings. He helped found Fox and The WB with Kellner. That's why -- if you didn't guess -- the programming at the WB often looks an awful lot like what's already been on Fox. During his first tenure at The WB, Ancier
takes credit for developing Buffy.

He also is credited with discovering Sarah Michelle Geller and casting her for the lead:

UltimateTV: Another one of your strong suits is in casting. I remember speaking to Kathleen Letterie, the casting chief from The WB, and she said that Sarah Michelle Geller was reading for another role for that show and you said "That's our Buffy." Is that true?

Garth Ancier: I did do that, yes. She was reading for the Charisma Carpenter role. She was coming in to play "the *****" and there was something a little more vulnerable about her. It's pretty easy to find an attractive "*****" in Hollywood. It's not that hard a role to cast. The thing about Sarah is, she came in the room with the cockiness and the attractiveness, but it was tempered with a certain amount of vulnerability that you couldn't put your finger on. So we read her for Buffy, and I think she's been a great Buffy. But that wasn't the original thought, you're right....

QUICK CUT N' PASTE CONTACT INFO FOR THE WB:

Mr. Garth Ancier
Co-Chairman,
The WB Television Network
4000 Warner Blvd.,
Bldg. 34R
Burbank, CA 91522

Phone: 818-977-5000
Fax: 818-977-6771

Hessu Hopo

02-22-2004, 05:04 PM

Now I give you (probably) the BEST Angel support site out there.

This site actually shows how much it has gathered funds for our cause so if you have missed this one...

Then you better check this one out too!

http://www.savingangel.com/

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"James Marsters" Letter Corrections

ANGELians,

Distribute this to your groups, please:

SUGGESTION: Networks and media are rumored to be tossing sealed envelopes since the anthrax scare of a couple years ago. While I've seen no source to confirm this, it may be a good idea to look at another approach. A good
number of the Angel fans are writing letters, and there's been a widely circulated list of addresses that people are sending them to. I'm concerned that their efforts, however, may be for naught, if the letters are disposed
of or returned in bulk, without even being seen. Postcards are an excellent option, naturally, but many people want to be able to say more than fits on the back of a 4"x6" card.

I suggest an alternative that might make the cut: write on heavier stock paper, fold and staple that closed, rather than using an envelope.

Jeffrey Malbisse of Josh’s Stakehouse suggests a further refinement of the idea -- make the folded paper into your own postcard!

You can decorate it how you like, and it will obviously not be a threat to anybody.

Now, onto the corrections:

1) As much as we wish he did, I believe that James Marsters did not *personally* send out the material which has been circulating across the Net. It is reported to come from a James Marsters forum, and does contain some excellent advice for the most part, but has some errors in the listing of executives to write to.

2) Turner Network Television is a subsidiary of TBS, which also owns The WB.

There's been a LOT of shuffling at the networks, so please double check the names and addresses of people you're targeting. A good resource is Yahoo, which offers reports on companies, like this one for The WB:

The following executives are *not* at TNT -- DO NOT write them at those addresses:

> Turner Network Television
> Attn: Attn: Mr. Jamie Kellner, Chairman and CEO

> Turner Network Television
> Attn:Garth Ancier,Executive Vice-President,

Mr. Kellner was one of the original founders of both the Fox network *and* The WB. For almost two years, he was the Chairman of the entire TBS empire after Time-Warner bought out Ted's company. Under pressure, he stepped down
last year -- probably due to culture clashes. His replacement was former CNN President Phil Kent.

Kellner still heads The WB since it was "his baby" but announced that he'll be retiring in April. Garth Ancier (see below) and your favorite TV exec, Jordan Levin, have been splitting his duties. (That's why each is called
Co-something.)

Mr. Kellner's made a lot of money when he sold out his interest in The WB, and now that he's retiring, he probably doesn't care what you think anymore -- in other words, don't bother writing him.

See:

NOTE: Jed Petrick was the President and COO of The WB, and was supposed to be part of a troika of WB execs after Kellner left, but in January "resigned" or was pushed out himself. Like Kellner, he's merely holding the seat warm until April. Ancier and Levin are running the whole show. DO NOT WRITE to Mr. Petrick!

However, we DEFINITELY MUST target Garth Ancier, who would probably be surprised if he didn't get lots of mail, so note the correct information:

Mr. Ancier is the Co-Chairman of The WB. Before returning to The WB, he was an Executive VP at the TBS, under Jamie Kellner. Prior to that, he was briefly President of Entertainment at NBC, where he took the fall for dropped ratings. He helped found Fox and The WB with Kellner. That's why -- if you didn't guess -- the programming at the WB often looks an awful lot like what's already been on Fox. During his first tenure at The WB, Ancier
takes credit for developing Buffy.

He also is credited with discovering Sarah Michelle Geller and casting her for the lead:

UltimateTV: Another one of your strong suits is in casting. I remember speaking to Kathleen Letterie, the casting chief from The WB, and she said that Sarah Michelle Geller was reading for another role for that show and you said "That's our Buffy." Is that true?

Garth Ancier: I did do that, yes. She was reading for the Charisma Carpenter role. She was coming in to play "the *****" and there was something a little more vulnerable about her. It's pretty easy to find an attractive "*****" in Hollywood. It's not that hard a role to cast. The thing about Sarah is, she came in the room with the cockiness and the attractiveness, but it was tempered with a certain amount of vulnerability that you couldn't put your finger on. So we read her for Buffy, and I think she's been a great Buffy. But that wasn't the original thought, you're right....

QUICK CUT N' PASTE CONTACT INFO FOR THE WB:

Mr. Garth Ancier
Co-Chairman,
The WB Television Network
4000 Warner Blvd.,
Bldg. 34R
Burbank, CA 91522

Phone: 818-977-5000
Fax: 818-977-6771

Gem

02-22-2004, 05:40 PM

I was dubious of what this last season would be like but I have really been impressed with the way it has picked up recently. Even the puppet episode, which I thought would be so bad, turned out to be one of my favorites. It was even funnier than watching Angel trying to imagine himself dancing, which I always thought would be the funniest Angel moment ever.

Thanks Hessu Hopo for supplying the links to the saving Angel sites. Its great to see how much money they have earned for this so far.

Teen Chef

02-22-2004, 05:56 PM

I just recently started watching Angel and I have to say this was one of the most Hilariously disturbing things I've ever seen. Demon Puppets? Vampire Puppets? It was so funny, I about laughed my head off!:lol:

Chase M

02-23-2004, 12:48 AM

Originally posted by Teen Chef
I just recently started watching Angel and I have to say this was one of the most Hilariously disturbing things I've ever seen. Demon Puppets? Vampire Puppets? It was so funny, I about laughed my head off!:lol:

Firstly, welcome to the Whedonverse/Buffyverse! :D

And yep!, this episode was probably the oddest episode of ANGEL I've seen throughout the entire series.

Vamp-faced Angelpet was hilarious. :lol:

Hessu Hopo

02-23-2004, 07:28 AM

Originally posted by Gem

Thanks Hessu Hopo for supplying the links to the saving Angel sites. Its great to see how much money they have earned for this so far.

No problem. :) I just try to keep you guys updated...

manoftommrow79

02-23-2004, 04:23 PM

I'm number 28,036 for the Angel Signature 28,000 is alot By the time it gets to May it might have over a million.

Arista 07

02-23-2004, 04:28 PM

I don't know if I mentioned yet, but I signed. Oh, and this entire situation sucks!

Chase M

02-24-2004, 12:34 AM

There's a very interesting read on Buffy.nu, here's the link:

http://www.buffy.nu/article.php3?id_article=3332

It is entitled, "How the WB Cancels Joss Whedon's Shows."

And it looks like we're making news! It seems like our campaign ("our" meaning the "whole campaign" in general) has been attracting the newsfolk, as we've been spotted on WB News!

http://www.buffy.nu/article.php3?id_article=3328

Now if only I could get on Fox News Channel's "Fox and Friends." Then we'd have some REALLY good publicity.

:D:cool:

lovethatsmallville

02-24-2004, 10:57 AM

What the hell!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How could they cancel angel. I mean it's only second to smallville in my book. God, i feel like i might cry for ours. I was really hoping to see some of the storylines played out like fred and spike. Damit!!!!!!!!

Hessu Hopo

02-25-2004, 02:17 AM

I think im going to close this thread. (in few days) Isn't that obvious? I think it's better when we have only one Angel news thread out there...
;)

Chase M

02-26-2004, 12:35 AM

Thank you, thank you Joss.

I figured that would be the best way to start as I read in a recent David Fury interview that this would be the final episode Joss would write. The final penned word, typed text of script he would lay before our eyes. ‘A Hole in the World’ isn’t great because it’s another ANGEL episode, it was great because Joss wrote it. The allusions and references, dialogue, music, feeling was all Joss, and we will miss it. So I sit here, at my desk, and raise this Arrowhead bottle in a toast to honor and appreciate everything Joss has done. Thank you, thank you Joss.

I knew it! I knew it, I knew it, I knew it! I had it called when we first met him. Knox was a part of an aged, evil cohort that was set on resurrecting the body of Illyria. I knew it, well, that he was evil at the very least, most.

To keep with cadence though…

*Spike walks in first, then Angel follows with a sword through his chest, and all he turns around we see one of those buggies attached to the other end of the sword*

“I’m shocked-SHOCKED that you’d say that.”

Lovin’ the humor, Joss. I could binge on his wit all day, with a silver spoon in mouth and all. Not to take the limelight from that scene is the romance between Wesley and Fred. Fred toting a flamethrower, and Wes with a shotgun. Who said romance was dead?

*Gunn singing Three Little Maids from School, then quickly ad-libbing a rap song as he spots Wesley*

It seems becoming mojoed up with the legalese also instills the little school girl into Gunn as well. I guess it – was – really the complete package deal. Did anyone else see the correlation between Gunn’s joke [about he and Fred getting back together], Knox’s choice in Fred as a vessel for Illyria, and well, the whole episode? There are a lot of different parallels in this episode, or am I just looking to much into it?

Speaking of maids, Angel and Spike were arguing like a pair of old maid’s over “Cavemen and Astronauts.” An issue that seemed to have caught the breeze and carried itself throughout the entire W&H building.

’Passion and humanity reside here’

The one quality that distinguishes this episode, and puts it in the echelon where all great episodes reside, is the passion shown by everyone. Everyone is ‘human’, and everyone is united. From the beginning where Spike smiles, and caringly says that Fred is prettier than any mummy he has seen; and Lorne’s display of emotion when he says he will tear Eve apart if he hears that she is lying. All of it was just very moving. These are sides to these people that we have never seen before.

The humanity we see even extends to Eve. I even felt sorry for her, she was just so human; frightened, worried, troubled. I did not hate her tonight.

“Please send anyone else who isn’t working Ms. Burkle’s case to me.”

I nodded in agreeance over Wesley’s devotion. If the person I loved were dying, and some Suit had a discrepancy over my work priorities, I would frankly shoot the bastard in the knee as well.

I also agree that Gunn and Knox are very alike but in different skin. Gunn the former lover who knows all about Fred, and Knox as the almost love, who knows somewhat about Fred. They – do – make perfect bookends to Fred, and they both killed her.

In my mind I was building up this episode. Ever since I saw the trailer, I knew it would be something special, much like how ‘You’re Welcome!’ was, and in the moment the tears began to come almost akin to that of the ones shed during “Chosen.” That’s saying something. The humanity shown through ‘Hole in the World’, brought out the humanity in me and I couldn’t help but follow Wesley. The scenes, the dialogue, the directing, and – especially – the acting were perfect. While watching Fred suffer, how could anyone not feel upset? Especially the scene where she is begging for a reason to why she is dying was just so very emotional.

Angel and Spike were powerless to save Fred. It was either unleash Illyria upon hundreds of thousands and let them suffer, or spare their lives for the life of one. How Wesley will take to the information that Angel could have saved Fred is quite clear – he will now stand by Fred for now, whether good or evil, and in the upcoming future, be forced to kill her -- because love hurts.

|| Notes: ||

---“Hell-A..”
…..that pretty much sums it up, Father Burkle. Also a good bit of forewarning, the same can be said for Fred’s “City of Angels” comment (which is all before she left to go to California).

---‘Cavemen’
…..there were a lot of references to ‘Cavemen’ tonight.
…..I believe ‘Cavemen’ was used to refer to the original demons, and a segue to Angel and Spike [when they were in the cave].

---‘Airplane 101’
…..Spike hasn’t flown before? He’s been alive for years, upon years, and hasn’t flown? …..His fiddling with the seatbuckle and slight anxiousness was very ‘human’ and appreciated.

---‘Deal with the Devil’
…..Gunn has made a deal with the devil, and it hasn’t cost him his soul, but Fred’s. It was Gunn’s selfishness, and denial of self that allowed him to sign the ‘order’, if not, ‘hit.’

|| Question: ||

---Does anyone know what book Fred chose? Unfortunately, it didn’t sound a bell, but I’m sure someone knows. Thanks in advance.

So does this make Fred the Big Bad of Season Five? Dear lord I hope not. I hope they cure Fred, and she’s back to being Ms. Bubbly Burkle, and she and Wes ride off into the sunset. But this is the Whedonverse, and if you feel love, you will feel pain in twofold.

Goodbye Fred, we will most certainly miss you.

Chase M

02-26-2004, 12:46 AM

Originally posted by Arista 07
I don't know if I mentioned yet, but I signed. Oh, and this entire situation sucks!

Yes, yes it does. :(

Gem

02-26-2004, 05:37 AM

Those articles look like they would be great Chase. thanks for posting them. I can't get them to load right now though, so I'll try again later. Might be my internet connection. What is dot nu anyhow? country is that?

RootBoy42

02-26-2004, 09:24 AM

I wholehartedly agree. Excellent episode. Best Joss since "Once more with Feeling" and most emotion since "The Body."

As for the flying thing, it is very likely difficult to fly without exposing oneself to sunlight. If the W&H jet has the same treated windows as the office building, they can fly. Angel too mentioned that he had only flown in a helicopter and that was at the begining of this season.

Fred's book choice was "A Little Princess" by Frances Hodgson Burnett. It is about a young girl who's father places her in a bording school while he goes off to war and he is killed. Unable to pay for her school, she is relegated to an attic and used as essentially slave labor for years until resuced by one of her father's friends. Sort of similar to Fred being taken to Pylea and used as a slave until her rescue, also it is a classic and I have many female friends who concider it their favorite book.

All in all this episode only made me that much angrier at the WB for canceling an excelent show for seemingly no reason whatsoever. Let's hope that the rest of the season (I will not say series) is as good as "Hole in the World"

Hartski

02-26-2004, 09:42 AM

Such an awesome, multi-faceted Episode. There was love and hate, comedy and despair all at the same time. "Cavemen and astronauts" had me on the floor laughing. Angel walking around with the sword through him was also funny. I think Fred Dying might make Wesley snap. He's gonna kill Gunn if he finds out.
Also, Amy Acker with blue hair is hot!

Ultimatemother

02-26-2004, 10:52 AM

I cannot believe it. I am so going to miss my t.v little sister. Poor Wesley.Poor Gunn. That is going to be hard on the both of them. I knew that deal would come back to bite him in the a**. I wonder how they all will deal with it.

Dannyblue1

02-26-2004, 12:22 PM

That was a good episode. Even though I knew what was going to happen (found out by accident; some people can't seem to help dropping spoilers even in non-spoiler discussions) I got weepy.

UtterlyJP

02-26-2004, 03:04 PM

I thought it was a really great episode. Very funny and nice drama too. Poor Fred. It's episodes like this one that makes me hope that there's one more season at least...

Big Albowski

02-26-2004, 03:44 PM

This episode confirms my opinion that "Angel" is the best show on TV!!!! I was shocked and emotionally drained at the end of this episode.... a good sign an episode rocked!!!! My heart was breaking for everyone.... except Knox!!
Amy Acker was terrific in this episode! She has been the sexiest nerd on TV and now she is going to be sexiest demon ever!!!

Al

Hartski

02-26-2004, 03:55 PM

Originally posted by Big Albowski

Amy Acker was terrific in this episode! She has been the sexiest nerd on TV and now she is going to be sexiest demon ever!!!

Al

So true, although it didn't hit me until I saw her holding the gun in "Smile Time"

Amy with that blue hair-wow, uber-sexy!!

Chase M

02-26-2004, 05:53 PM

Originally posted by RootBoy42
I wholehartedly agree. Excellent episode. Best Joss since "Once more with Feeling" and most emotion since "The Body."

As for the flying thing, it is very likely difficult to fly without exposing oneself to sunlight. If the W&H jet has the same treated windows as the office building, they can fly. Angel too mentioned that he had only flown in a helicopter and that was at the begining of this season.

Fred's book choice was "A Little Princess" by Frances Hodgson Burnett. It is about a young girl who's father places her in a boarding school while he goes off to war and he is killed. Unable to pay for her school, she is relegated to an attic and used as essentially slave labor for years until resuced by one of her father's friends. Sort of similar to Fred being taken to Pylea and used as a slave until her rescue, also it is a classic and I have many female friends who concider it their favorite book.

All in all this episode only made me that much angrier at the WB for canceling an excelent show for seemingly no reason whatsoever. Let's hope that the rest of the season (I will not say series) is as good as "Hole in the World"

Rootboy42

"A Little Princess", eh? Thanks! That question was on my mind all night. :)

And I am in agreeance over being a little upset that the WB has the nerve to cancel ANGEL in the face of such a great episode which shows that ANGEL at least has a season in it left.

Originally posted by Hartski
Such an awesome, multi-faceted Episode. There was love and hate, comedy and despair all at the same time. "Cavemen and astronauts" had me on the floor laughing. Angel walking around with the sword through him was also funny. I think Fred Dying might make Wesley snap. He's gonna kill Gunn if he finds out.
Also, Amy Acker with blue hair is hot!

Hartski

I definately think that Wesley is going to kill Gunn whether Wesley has lost it or not.

Amy Acker was very spicy, but hell, she would look hot in a potato sack. ;)

Originally posted by Dannyblue1
That was a good episode. Even though I knew what was going to happen (found out by accident; some people can't seem to help dropping spoilers even in non-spoiler discussions) I got weepy.

Danny

Ack, I hate it when people do that, but I'm glad you still enjoyed the episode. But I think it would be impossible for anyone, not, to have enjoyed this episode.

Originally posted by Ultimatemother
I cannot believe it. I am so going to miss my t.v little sister. Poor Wesley.Poor Gunn. That is going to be hard on the both of them. I knew that deal would come back to bite him in the a**. I wonder how they all will deal with it.

Ultimatemother

I think that if Wesley doesn't kill Gunn, that Gunn will probably take his life in a possible 'redemption' sort-of-way.

Chase M

02-26-2004, 05:56 PM

Originally posted by Gem
Those articles look like they would be great Chase. thanks for posting them. I can't get them to load right now though, so I'll try again later. Might be my internet connection. What is dot nu anyhow? country is that?

Well, I've seen .Nu be used as more of a 'fashionable' internet address, but it seems it originates in Europe (i.e.: Switzerland, Finland, The UK, France, et cetera), as seen in www.nunames.nu.

:)

Chase M

02-26-2004, 07:45 PM

I made a few signs. Feel free to use them. But please save the image and host it yourself (via lycos.co.uk), as my bandwidth will expire if otherwise. :)

http://members.lycos.co.uk/chasemurata/saveangel1.png

http://members.lycos.co.uk/chasemurata/saveangelgroup.png

http://members.lycos.co.uk/chasemurata/thankyoujoss.png

..and if we are unsuccessful..

http://members.lycos.co.uk/chasemurata/goodbyeangel.png

There you go! Pass them around. :D

Beady Eyes

02-26-2004, 09:23 PM

Has anyone considered boycotting the WB collectively to make a statement? I am not sure what good it would even do, but I thought I would mention it.

Also, next month I am getting a new tat and am looking for a good pic of the Mutant Enemy logo. Anyone have one or direct me to one?

UtterlyJP

02-26-2004, 10:36 PM

I have to agree about Amy Acker being such a sexy nerd...and something cool I recently found out is that we have the same birthday! December 5th. Though she's a few years older than me but I can still dream.

Chase M

02-26-2004, 11:05 PM

Originally posted by Beady Eyes
Has anyone considered boycotting the WB collectively to make a statement? I am not sure what good it would even do, but I thought I would mention it.

Also, next month I am getting a new tat and am looking for a good pic of the Mutant Enemy logo. Anyone have one or direct me to one?

I edited this one, if it helps.

http://members.lycos.co.uk/chasemurata/grrarghmonster.bmp

:cool:

Chase M

02-26-2004, 11:09 PM

Originally posted by UtterlyJP
I have to agree about Amy Acker being such a sexy nerd...and something cool I recently found out is that we have the same birthday! December 5th. Though she's a few years older than me but I can still dream.

That is pretty cool! :D

I have the same birthday as Joss. When I found that out I nearly crapped my pants. I hope it's an omen that I'll become as driven, brilliant, amazing as he is -- but hoping is like wishing. It seems I'll just have to get things done myself. ;)

Chase M

02-27-2004, 12:17 AM

------
Illyria Delirium

Within this spectacle (which is almost an insult to what Joss has produced) of clashing wits and suspense, was the death of our dear Fred, which is almost eclipsed by the quick emergence of Illyria itself. That final sequence with Fred and Wesley was one of the most heartwrenching scenes I've ever witnessed, I felt helpless and could feel Wesley's sorrow, and just couldn't help myself from balling, but the quick transition was just that. Quick. From when Fred fell beside the bed, and Illyria emerged, was just too quick, too soon. It was just too sudden.

nexgod

02-27-2004, 01:52 PM

yeh i was sad, it was a heart felt episode and a great one, where you saw all the characters other side, i havent seen spike like that since Joyce

Beady Eyes

02-27-2004, 06:47 PM

Thank you Chase, it does. I'll try and post a pic of it when I get it if that is what I decide to go with this time.

vyperman7

02-28-2004, 12:48 AM

Is Angel only done with the WB, or is it done period? That is what I would like to know. The show still has a lot of room for growth and seems to only get better. I think that Angel could still flourish on a network like UPN because it still has such a huge following. Booting Angel was probably the stupidest thing the WB has ever done. It would be different if the show had run its course, but Angel still has a long way to go. The last time I got this upset over a cancelation, was when Quantum Leap was taken off the air. That show still had at least two more seasons in it, if not more.

Chase M

02-28-2004, 02:35 AM

Originally posted by nexgod
yeh i was sad, it was a heart felt episode and a great one, where you saw all the characters other side, i havent seen spike like that since Joyce

Ahh yes, that is very true!

It's nice to see the 'human' side of good ol' Spike. :D

imissnewwave

02-28-2004, 12:14 PM

Did anyone catch the look on Angels face as Spike gave the speech about their being a hole in the world and a guy at the other end of the hole.He looked like he was gonna cry or something.
I cant remember the last time angels face went like that.im sure it was buffy related if it did

Dannyblue1

02-28-2004, 11:42 PM

Spike talking about the hole in the world was amazing. It gave me chills, especially since he was talking about it almost casually, but it also seemed to be effecting him at the same time. And when he said (paraphrase) "It just seems like we should have known it was here," it just got to me. There were so many meanings and layers beyond what he said.

Chase M

02-29-2004, 05:20 AM

Originally posted by imissnewwave
Did anyone catch the look on Angels face as Spike gave the speech about their being a hole in the world and a guy at the other end of the hole.He looked like he was gonna cry or something.
I cant remember the last time angels face went like that.im sure it was buffy related if it did

Yes, I noticed that. It was very heartwrenching, not just for us, but for Angel as well, as he knew he couldn't save Fred. :(

Originally posted by Dannyblue1
Spike talking about the hole in the world was amazing. It gave me chills, especially since he was talking about it almost casually, but it also seemed to be effecting him at the same time. And when he said (paraphrase) "It just seems like we should have known it was here," it just got to me. There were so many meanings and layers beyond what he said.

Here here. I totally concur. The casual attitude of Spike just made it -- that -- much more affective.

Chase M

03-01-2004, 03:33 AM

Originally posted by Beady Eyes
Thank you Chase, it does. I'll try and post a pic of it when I get it if that is what I decide to go with this time.

Hey man, no problem. Glad to have helped; and if you do decide to do it -- post pictures! If not, then you have yourself your very own Grr Argh Monster. :D

Originally posted by vyperman7
Is Angel only done with the WB, or is it done period? That is what I would like to know. The show still has a lot of room for growth and seems to only get better. I think that Angel could still flourish on a network like UPN because it still has such a huge following. Booting Angel was probably the stupidest thing the WB has ever done. It would be different if the show had run its course, but Angel still has a long way to go. The last time I got this upset over a cancelation, was when Quantum Leap was taken off the air. That show still had at least two more seasons in it, if not more.

At Buffy.nu there was an article saying that they were "preparing a package to send to UPN," but they called it, "a long shot."

I am still dedicated to the cause, and fax daily, sending postcards bi-weekly. Hopefully with some luck we will save our beloved show. One can only hope.

This picture sums up the current state of Television best:

http://buffy.nu/article.php3?id_article=3372

Indeed. :cool:

Dannyblue1

03-01-2004, 07:37 AM

I have no idea what's going on behind the scenes. But since ANGEL is airing in syndication on TNT, and they actually did a couple of PRETENDER movies after they got syndication rights for that series, I actually wouldn't mind them going the same route with ANGEL. While the PRETENDER movies weren't my favorite, I think ANGEL could pull it off.

The WB has already said something about doing ANGEL movies, but I worry they'd have too many "suggestions" about how it should be done, which was part of the problem when this season started. I bet TNT, or another network, would give ME more freedom.

I'd just like to see what happened if ANGEL survived (either as a series, or movies), but far away from the WB. Yeah, the show it's hitting its stride again right now, but it did struggle earlier in season 5, and I partially blame the changes the WB forced them to make.

superfrodo

03-01-2004, 09:10 PM

I'm glad it's cancelled. The whole Buffy thing started to suck after she died, and Angel sucked after the first few episodes when Doyle got offed.

*Tiff*

Gem

03-02-2004, 05:02 AM

Sorry I am so late reponding to this, but I saw the episode late and just got time to reply now. This was such a good episode. I agree with many of the things siad here already so I won't recap them, but I have to say I'm glad to have the "never flown before" thing explained to me. I couldn't figure that one out either, and I didn't even think about the sunlight issue.

As sad as this episode was (and it was very heart wrenching) I agree that I think Fred looked stunningly beauttiful with the blue hair as evil video game looking princess. I definitely hope she doesn't stay evil for many, many episodes, but the next one should be very interesting at least. :)

Well, I guess we will all know tomorrow.

Dannyblue1

03-02-2004, 07:02 AM

Originally posted by superfrodo
I'm glad it's cancelled. The whole Buffy thing started to suck after she died, and Angel sucked after the first few episodes when Doyle got offed.

*Tiff*

I don't think so.

ANGEL is a great show. At times, it was even better than BUFFY. What I love about ANGEL is that it's a complete package. They do action so intense, it makes your heart race. They can do humor so funny, you almost bust a gut laughing. And they can do dramatic ep so good, they can make you cry. ("Hero", "Home", "Sleep Tight", "You're Welcome", "Hole In the World", to name just a few.) For four season, it was consistently one of the best shows, week-to-week, on television. And, even though they faltered in season 5, they have recovered.

And sorry if I got carried away. But don't mess with my ANGEL! :lol:

Plus, I don't think it's necessary to go into a thread about a specific show and celebrate it's cancellation. You don't have to like that show, of course. But you gotta remember there are people in the thread who love it. Think of how you'd feel if your favorite show were cancelled, and someone gloated to you about it.

Chase M

03-02-2004, 06:33 PM

Originally posted by superfrodo
I'm glad it's cancelled. The whole Buffy thing started to suck after she died, and Angel sucked after the first few episodes when Doyle got offed.

*Tiff*

Heresy, utter heresy.

But this is coming from a person with "Frodo" in their name, so what else could have I expected? :p

Originally posted by Dannyblue1
I don't think so.

ANGEL is a great show. At times, it was even better than BUFFY. What I love about ANGEL is that it's a complete package. They do action so intense, it makes your heart race. They can do humor so funny, you almost bust a gut laughing. And they can do dramatic ep so good, they can make you cry. ("Hero", "Home", "Sleep Tight", "You're Welcome", "Hole In the World", to name just a few.) For four season, it was consistently one of the best shows, week-to-week, on television. And, even though they faltered in season 5, they have recovered.

And sorry if I got carried away. But don't mess with my ANGEL! :lol:

Plus, I don't think it's necessary to go into a thread about a specific show and celebrate it's cancellation. You don't have to like that show, of course. But you gotta remember there are people in the thread who love it. Think of how you'd feel if your favorite show were cancelled, and someone gloated to you about it.

I completely concur. Very well said Danny Blue.

Chase M

03-02-2004, 06:36 PM

Originally posted by Gem
Sorry I am so late reponding to this, but I saw the episode late and just got time to reply now. This was such a good episode. I agree with many of the things siad here already so I won't recap them, but I have to say I'm glad to have the "never flown before" thing explained to me. I couldn't figure that one out either, and I didn't even think about the sunlight issue.

As sad as this episode was (and it was very heart wrenching) I agree that I think Fred looked stunningly beauttiful with the blue hair as evil video game looking princess. I definitely hope she doesn't stay evil for many, many episodes, but the next one should be very interesting at least. :)

Well, I guess we will all know tomorrow.

Yes, we will find out a lot of important things tomorrow. I know Knox isn't dead, I don't think Joss would let him off that easily.

I hope Knox dies a slow, painful death. The bastard. :p

manoftommrow79

03-02-2004, 08:19 PM

Did anyone else besides me feel bad for Amy Acker's character Fred. I hope that they can find a way to bring Fred back to the way she was. Fred was my favorite female character (besides Nina) on the show. Angel and Co. gotta save Fred for the sake of humanity.

p.s. love the blue hair :D

Hessu Hopo

03-03-2004, 09:05 AM

B]Quote to all:[/B]

Heh... it seems people have really visited this thread. :D
Oh, pretty damn funny guy you are superfrodo. :lol: What an attitude you got there! Boy you sure need some spine! Just take it like a man. You are a needy guy... cant take it if story goes in a different direction what you want. Then you come here and whine about that? FU** y*! and accept the fact that this show is great! Too bad you got problems... :confused:

Hey Good job Chase M. for still posting in here!
It seems you can manage here without me telling about Angel. :)
Well I had no doubt but one guy rarely knows all news and all, you know. I think Kryptonsite forum is good and im still checking in now and then. I haven't eather stopped fighting. What I have read so far from websites we just might make it to Angels sixth season.
One irritating thing what I want to mention. Argh! I could be called Hessu The Fly Killer and thats because I got these little flies everywhere. Today I have killed four of them and they just keep coming. Daaaaamn it! Almost killed fifth. :D Wonder why those little buggers invate my room...

Hessu Hopo

03-03-2004, 10:05 AM

Very important petition addressed to UPN! Couldn't help it... had to tell you guys about this. :eek:

http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?upn4ats[U]

We need more votes here. That's because almost all votes has gone to WB which has already cancelled Angel. Please vote!

Beady Eyes

03-03-2004, 04:22 PM

Well, I hate to say it, but stick a stake in me, I'm done. Nothing that I have read has been encouraging at all. Read on Buffy.nu that the UPN has officially said "no".

I think it was a done deal from the get go, which is what Joss and co. have been cautioning for a few weeks now. I am going to stop worrying about what to do on Thursday nights and just enjoy the rest of the season.

I will say this.....I will not watch any of the existing WB shows other than Angel. I won't even have the channel tuned into the station for noise.

The WB really screwed the pooch this time as far as I am concerned. I hope Joss has a wonderful career ahead of him and should he ever do business with the frog again, I hope he negotiates more wisely.

By the by, I was wondering if anyone plans on attending the Buffy con in Cleavland Ohio. Let me know as I may be there.

Thanks for all the updates Chase!

Chase M

03-03-2004, 11:45 PM

Delirium

”She curious ... she was searching for what other people couldn’t see.”

The last thing I would have believed is that Illyria would be turned from a possible Season 5 Big Bad into a subservient apprentice of Wesley’s. In retrospection, “Shells” was very good. It connected everything to the facts, from Gunn’s selfish betrayal to whom and what Illyria is. It also helped us move on, and realize the bigger picture, that there is an even bigger battle coming. Not to undermine “Shells”, but it was a very good transitional episode, explaining everything in its finest detail, which is a compliment rather than a lash.

Moving on

“Her essence, soul was consumed by the fires of resurrection.”
-Gunn’s ‘Doctor’, about Fred’s soul and her restoration

What has happened, has happened. What has been done has been done, and there is no changing that. Not even for our Fred. Wesley said it best, “There is nothing left of her, she’s a shell.”

They all realized that. They all knew, deep down in their hearts, that Fred is gone and there is nothing they could do to return her to us. But there was denial, and rejection – there is emotional attachment to the belief, and to Fred. Even still, with Wesley’s agreeance, and lucid allowing of Illyria to be taught of this world.

Did anyone notice how the W&H workers were still working, even through Fred’s death? I found that very symbolic of “moving on” and how people continue on with their lives, even through death, of how life moves on.

Even Illyria has moved on. Albeit bent on destroying mankind, she has apparently moved on, unless she betrays Wesley and uses him for ‘her’ own agenda since she understands how emotionally involved he was to Fred.

Spike has also moved on. Previously wanting to go on a ‘Euro Trip’ and reunite with the Scoob’s, mainly Buffy, he has realized that his place is there, in LA, fighting the good fight even though on the side of Wolfram and Hart, but understands how Fred gave her life to fight the good fight – even though a part of Wolfram and Hart.

”No scent … it’s like she wasn’t even there.”
-Spike

Seriously though if you look past the repetition of the phrase, the theme of this episode was how everyone is grieving and adjusting and – moving on.

Giles the Compassion Slayer

I still can’t believe how much of an ******* Giles was to Angel. What a dick. I also noticed how Angel didn’t hand the phone to Spike, I think if Spike spoke to Giles then that might have changed his [Giles] mind. I’m still fuming about that though. It just didn’t seem very king, although I don’t believe, hear Angel explain the circumstances.

Quotes of the Night

“Were you - even - listening?”

This was said just after Angel’s speech, after Wesley shoot and kills, that ******* Knox. It was very funny, and brought me up from the sadness that is this situation.

“Nothing from Wolfram and Hart is ever free.”

Right after Gunn spews his excuses and apologies to Wesley. Oh, and right before Wesley skewers him, deservingly so. Wesley SHOULD have aimed for the vital organs.

”Oookay.”

“My mom thought I was looking at porn.”

The first one was said when Illyria disgarmented, while the second one was emitted while Knox was explaining how he got involved with Illyria back at the age of 11, or so. He did have a few lines that would have been funny if he weren’t the reason why Fred is no longer with us.

There’s no place like home

It is very hard to believe that Fred is gone. It is even harder to believe that her soul, her essence wasn’t released into somewhere better, that it was burned and destroyed. The thought of not even having your soul after death is like saying everything you’ve done, all the good you’ve done was all for nothing – and that hurts my soul.

The final dialogue between Wesley and Illyria was very captivating, very moving and very real. Who ever wrote that did a fine job, and I give them much regard for doing it so well. The same regard is also given to the final scene, where Fred is leaving home, leaving her shell. During that sequence, it hit hard that that is the final time we will be seeing our wonderfully engaging Winifred Burkle, and made me appreciate even more how there is no place like home.

--Chase

Chase M

03-04-2004, 12:43 AM

Originally posted by Hessu Hopo
B]Quote to all:

Heh... it seems people have really visited this thread. :D
Oh, pretty damn funny guy you are superfrodo. :lol: What an attitude you got there! Boy you sure need some spine! Just take it like a man. You are a needy guy... cant take it if story goes in a different direction what you want. Then you come here and whine about that? FU** y*! and accept the fact that this show is great! Too bad you got problems... :confused:

Hey Good job Chase M. for still posting in here!
It seems you can manage here without me telling about Angel. :)
Well I had no doubt but one guy rarely knows all news and all, you know. I think Kryptonsite forum is good and im still checking in now and then. I haven't eather stopped fighting. What I have read so far from websites we just might make it to Angels sixth season.
One irritating thing what I want to mention. Argh! I could be called Hessu The Fly Killer and thats because I got these little flies everywhere. Today I have killed four of them and they just keep coming. Daaaaamn it! Almost killed fifth. :D Wonder why those little buggers invate my room... [/B]

Hah, ack about the flies, and thanks for the praise. :)

I hope you continue to visit Kryptonsite. There's a lot of good people here -- like Mr. Boejangles, aside from the fact he posts in the nude. :eek:

Originally posted by Beady Eyes
Well, I hate to say it, but stick a stake in me, I'm done. Nothing that I have read has been encouraging at all. Read on Buffy.nu that the UPN has officially said "no".

I think it was a done deal from the get go, which is what Joss and co. have been cautioning for a few weeks now. I am going to stop worrying about what to do on Thursday nights and just enjoy the rest of the season.

I will say this.....I will not watch any of the existing WB shows other than Angel. I won't even have the channel tuned into the station for noise.

The WB really screwed the pooch this time as far as I am concerned. I hope Joss has a wonderful career ahead of him and should he ever do business with the frog again, I hope he negotiates more wisely.

By the by, I was wondering if anyone plans on attending the Buffy con in Cleavland Ohio. Let me know as I may be there.

Thanks for all the updates Chase!

Ahh, a Buffy Con .. in the alterverse Hellmouth city, Cleveland. ;)

Yes, after ANGEL ends, I'm going to complete stop watching the WB. I can always download my Smallville episodes, I don't want to give them any bit of audience, not one bit.

Thanks for the praise too. I really appreciate it. :D

Angel Co-Producer Jeff Bell speaks,

http://filmforce.ign.com/articles/495/495567p1.html?fromint=1

Here's to hoping.

LadyOphelia

03-04-2004, 03:45 PM

You're going to make me cry! I thought the whole soul burning was so sad. Fred doesn't even get to go to heaven... :(

Big Albowski

03-04-2004, 03:53 PM

Loved the episode! Having Fred's soul completely destroyed is soooooo sad... I do wonder if Fred's memories will have a significant effect on Illyria!

Al

LadyOphelia

03-04-2004, 04:05 PM

I hope it does. I want her to feel remorse.

Chase M

03-05-2004, 02:20 AM

Dead End

Well folks,

I am not one to usually give up without a fight, but when the fight is against the world, it just becomes too overwhelming, even for us, the GREATEST and MOST DEDICATED FANS I've ever known.

Gellar Still Open To 'Angel' Appearance

Author: Michael Hinman
Date: 03-03-2004
Source: Sci-Fi Wire

It's almost completely unlikely that Sarah Michelle Gellar will return to "Angel" on The WB to reprise her role as vampire slayer Buffy Summers one last time. But the actress said not to blame her.

"A lot has been written about recently, 'Oh, is she going to do it? Is she not going to do it?'" Gellar told Sci-Fi Wire. "Well, to be truthful, I don't know if I'm even going to make it home before they finish. But no one's contacted me. I'll be totally honest."

Gellar, who is currently filming "The Grudge" in Tokyo, said that reports over why she didn't appear in an earlier episode of "Angel" as planned has been misconstrued by the press. She said her main reason for pulling out was the fact that her aunt died around the time she was supposed to be committing to the project.

"They had asked me to do 'Angel,' and it was a very bad time in my personal life," Gellar said. "There was a lot going on in my family. And I had to back out. And you sort of never hear the second side of the story. You never hear why I didn't do it. And then, all of a sudden, people get really angry, and nobody asks why it didn't work for you."

While Gellar said it's untrue that she wants to distance herself from the franchise, she did express concern on how her character's return in the final episode of "Angel" would affect the overall perception of the show.

"I go back and forth on the idea, especially because 'Angel' had such a hard time, in my opinion, always getting out from Buffy's shadow," Gellar said. "And it never got to stand on its own. And I would hate for it to go out being about Buffy.

"It'll all depend on if I'm home in time, and what the ideas are."

Fans can catch "Angel" Wednesdays at 9 p.m. ET on The WB. The series ends its five-year run in May.

Sarah Michelle Gellar has always been called a professional, and I never doubted that she had a reason why she couldn't appear, but I never figured she'd have a -- good -- reason. Haha, sorry, but it's true.

I concur with her statement of how we never heard her side of the story, and I guess we all know why now.

Mutant Enemy Confirms 'Angel' Demise

Author: Michael Hinman
Date: 03-04-2004
Source: IGN FilmForce

The IGN FilmForce Web site has confirmed that UPN has indeed passed on the "Angel" series, based on an earlier rumor report originating at SyFy Portal.

"Fans behind the Save Angel movement have asked fans to stop sending messages to UPN, further indicating that the future of the series is dim," IGN FilmForce reported. "Co-executive producer Jeffrey Bell told IGN FilmForce last weekend that any decision by UPN would be based on their financial situation. That situation has been in steady decline over the past several years, partially due to an exceptionally high license fee paid by the network to Fox for the rights to 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer's' final season."

SyFy Portal first reported on the rumor earlier this week. (original story)

"The show is just too far in its lifespan to really make decent money on it," a Viacom source told SyFy Portal. "It was a mistake for UPN to grab 'Buffy' so late, and it ended up costing (the network) money."

The WB cancelled "Angel" last month, effective at the end of the current season. In the announcement, The WB said it wanted to give the series a chance to end the way the producers want it to end, and that this would be a fitting way to do it. After the cancellation, the producers apparently opened up talks with UPN, but even at the beginning, some people connected to the show admitted that earning a UPN pickup was a "long shot."

Please note that despite the confirmation from Mutant Enemy, there still has been no official announcement made by anyone, so please treat this as you would any other rumor.

This is it people, this is the end. UPN was the last and final hope for ANGEL, and it seems that the deal isn't going to happen due to fiscal and viewership "reasons."

Now that we know ANGEL will see it's final battle this Season, I think that we should just sit back and watch everything unfold, because in the end I don't think any of us want to remember ANGEL with any sort of negative cloud hovering over it -- especially Season 5, which has been just phenomenal.

Why We Fought

I know there is a lot of sadness, and Joss said it the best with,”If you want to know how I feel, watch the First Act of ‘The Body.’”

For me though, if you want to know how, I, feel, watch “Shells” and listen to the final moment between Illyria and Wesley. That’s EXACTLY how I feel, and that same question rings throughout my heart,

“Is it enough?”

So I raise my glass, in a toast to our efforts with none more important than the other, and with this toast let us remember what Joss Whedon, David Boreanaz, Charisma Carpenter, Andy Hallet, Amy Acker, J. August Richards, Alexis Denisof, David Greenwalt, James Marsters, and every other cast member and crew has done for us. They created a world in which we could free ourselves from the harshness of our own; they have created a place where we can call – ‘Home.'

So thank you Joss, for giving us a place to turn to, thank you for giving us a home.

Cheers, and may Joss's grace fall upon us all. http://members.lycos.co.uk/emmasangelus/thankyoujoss.gif

Chase M

03-05-2004, 02:26 AM

Originally posted by LadyOphelia
You're going to make me cry! I thought the whole soul burning was so sad. Fred doesn't even get to go to heaven... :(

Sorry. :(

I just felt the sorrow and couldn't help but put it into words. Fred losing her soul is just so tragic.

Originally posted by Big Albowski
Loved the episode! Having Fred's soul completely destroyed is soooooo sad... I do wonder if Fred's memories will have a significant effect on Illyria!

Al

One can only hope. If she can remember Fred's memories, then maybe there is hope for Illyria to do good.

Originally posted by LadyOphelia
I hope it does. I want her to feel remorse.

-- That too.

Charmed

03-05-2004, 04:07 AM

That sounds like a really cool episode!!! Here in Australia we are only on season 5 episode 4!!! But i'm loving it - hey I love the show.

But my favourite character is Fred and I love it when the episode are surrounded around her so I can't wait!!!

...And Fred with blue hair??? Should be intresting - sorry Amy I prefer brunettes!!! Ha...

Hartski

03-05-2004, 06:33 AM

Is anyone else thinking that if the Fang Gang can get Illyria on the good side, she can help them take out the Senior Partners?

I think that would be a kickass series finale.

Chase M

03-05-2004, 06:46 AM

Originally posted by Hartski
Is anyone else thinking that if the Fang Gang can get Illyria on the good side, she can help them take out the Senior Partners?

I think that would be a kickass series finale.

Fred saving the world would be the ultimate redemption, but something inside me thinks that she has other plans. I don't know, and I don't want to believe it, but inside I just think she'll cross us.

http://members.lycos.co.uk/emmasangelus/sadrose.gif

rumpuso

03-05-2004, 07:38 AM

Chase, your closing statement for your fight for this show was beautiful. You are a true leader to the end. Great job fighting!

Chase M

03-05-2004, 08:15 AM

Originally posted by rumpuso
Chase, your closing statement for your fight for this show was beautiful. You are a true leader to the end. Great job fighting!

Thank you very much rumpuso.

We did our best at fulfilling our duties for the cause of saving this show, and there is nothing we could have done more -- well, other than actually funding it (haha) ;).

:cool:

Chlanarkexis

03-05-2004, 05:55 PM

It's hard to believe Fred is really gone. I think the little bunny rabbit holds her soul...

Either that or Illyria will come to good side and save the day.

But one thing is for sure! I'll never recover if the show ends that way for Fred! Actually I'll never recover anyway because the show is ending...

Hessu Hopo

03-05-2004, 06:00 PM

Originally posted by Chase M
Thank you very much rumpuso.

We did our best at fulfilling our duties for the cause of saving this show, and there is nothing we could have done more -- well, other than actually funding it (haha) ;).

:cool:

Well Chase... It seems that you need my help after all. :) Please dont stop fighting! And that goes for everyone in here! There is still hope! Firstly because the most important Angel campaigns has not even started yet. Please go to this site:

http://saveangel.org/

IM sorry if my text is little messy. Thats because I cut/and pasted my other messages to this message and tried to make it readable.

I know that I have given you this address before but there is a VERY good reason for that! Go to saveangel discussion board. You dont have to be a member but I recommend it though. And Chase it could help you too! There is a good chance to get WB renew Angel. STILL! WE have also time. About three months... Some of us already know that WB is going to show smallville re-runs in Angels time slot (starting next week...). After 5 weeks "things get back to" normal meaning that WB is going to show last Angel episodes then.

I had an idea which I already but on saveangel message board. Could actually work! Here it is:

From saveangel sites article I read about WB been HAPPY about Angels ratings but they are not happy about EVERY show what they have... because lately WB has lost some of it's audience. Get it? This year Angel has STILL good ratings (actually better than last year's). :)
So im proposing that those who watch WB stop watching it for 5 weeks because there is no Angel in that time... so we can see how much we Angel fans really affect to WBs ratings.

WB can see that ratings are SUDDENTLY dropping if we do this. [Notice to Smallville fans: of course you can watch smallville in this 5 weeks, if you want, but atleast consider dropping other shows for just this 5 weeks OK?] Then when those last Angel episodes finaly air WE have already gathered more Angel viewers
(spread the word that we need to get more viewers so we can get ratings more up than they are already) and then WE will show WB how much they need us Angel fans. Fans who are devoted to this great show. Ratings go up (because of Angel) and WB will pick up Angel! :D

If someone is watching Smallville or other WB shows you can always download these episodes from the internet and there are always re-runs. So it shouldn't be that big of a problem? Thats all im asking you. 5 weeks without WB. (remember what I said about smallville before...) After that suddently all of us start watching WB (Angel). Well... are you with me? Let's put WB on a spot! ;)

Remember also that Joss Whedon with his cast/writers etc. don't want to quit Angel!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Heh, sorry guys! I had forgotten to give you this site: :o

http://www.saveangelrally.com/

[Information about site:]

We, the dedicated fans of Angel, have decided to demonstrate to the WB Network what we think of them cancelling our favorite show. And so Friday, March 12 is declared International Rally to Save Angel Day. If you love Angel as much as we do, please come out and help us show how much we love Angel.

Hurry up and go to this site!

Beady Eyes

03-05-2004, 06:29 PM

Hesso, your spirit is admirable, but as I have said and then Chase after me, this is a done deal. The WB will not be renewing Angel and UPN will not be picking it up. I am sure the cast members are already shopping around for more work. The actress who plays Eve has actually already been snatched up for something. It was a good fight, but it is over. Sit back and enjoy the show with the rest of us instead of agonizing on the WB's horrible mistake.

UtterlyJP

03-05-2004, 07:15 PM

Very said about Fred's soul...I mean it's one thing that she's dead but not having her soul means she's not even at peace. She just isn't anything anymore.

I noticed how the Wolfram&Hart employees went on as usual at the end of the episode also. It's weird how these are the people they're fighting for like Angel said in his speech and they Fred's death didn't mean anything to them really.

Not sure how Illyria will turn out, it could go either way. At least Amy's still on the show! Though I have a feeling if the show were to go on after this season she'd last longer as Fred rather than Illyria.

Beady Eyes

03-05-2004, 08:30 PM

I am always the first to admit that I may have made a mistake. With that being said, please read on and bring at least one grain of salt with you.

6th Season of Angel? (http://www.buffy.nu/article.php3?id_article=3446)

manoftommrow79

03-05-2004, 11:33 PM

I'm not surprised that the WB is considering having Angel return for a 6th Season. 2 Million people have voiced their opinion saying they want Angel to return again. Since Angel is one of the WB's biggest shows if they refuse to bring it back.Then two million viewers might stop watching the WB all together.

This brings a great chance of dropping their ratings for their other shows.Without enough viewers there will be no WB which will put the Warner Brothers television company out of work.

vyperman7

03-06-2004, 02:38 AM

I know that it is messed up to think this way, but Angel being let go pretty much guarantees a fourth season of Smallville, and an even longer run after that. The WB would never can their two of their most popular shows in the same year. Now that Angel is gone, the WB can put more emphasis into promoting Smallville and handling it better. Angel is an awesome show and one of my favorites. But if I had to choose between Angel and Smallville, I would have to go with Smallville.

Beady Eyes

03-06-2004, 03:09 AM

I'm not surprised that the WB is considering having Angel return for a 6th Season. 2 Million people have voiced their opinion saying they want Angel to return again.

Huh?

What 2 million people?

nexgod

03-06-2004, 05:39 AM

Well yeh..

i hated this episode, too much grief, and Fred is truly gone

which sucked

apart from that, all that Chase mentioned is all very good

Hessu Hopo

03-06-2004, 07:54 AM

Heh, how many times do I have to repeat myself? The fight IS NOT OVER! We have plenty of time left! Besides WB has not done it's FINAL decision about Angel. When all this started you believed that saving Angel is possible... what has changed since? Sometime ago you stopped believing. Why? Because you thought UPN will pick up Angel? It was a LONG SHOT! It was never sure. The thing is that fighting is just starting. I dont understand why people cant go to visit www.saveangel.org and go to it's message board. If you just could do that you would understand why I believe. I BELIEVE SAVING IN ANGEL BECAUSE I KNOW A LOT MORE ABOUT ANGEL THAN YOU PEOPLE! I have searched for weeks these websites and read what people had to say. There is so many ideas and people willing to carry out them. Join us in saveangel.org! It always helps. But please dont go there and cry out loud. It doesn't help! Those people in there are strong because they are not alone! There are so many of us. (but so many more those who doesn't even know about Angels cancellation) But soon they will! No-one expects one guy to save Angel! We need man power to get more Angel fans to these websites so we can all work together to save our show!

\Vyperman7/ Yes, it seems strange that you think that... I respect your opinion like anybody elses but please tell me how Smallville is better? Angel has always had it all. Good story,actors etc. but when I think about Smallville I cant see good writing. It has almost none character development besides that Clark Kent gets more skills. :) (super powers) It goes forward formulaic. I watch Smallville because I like it's actors, it tells about young superman and it's pretty much cool but that's it.Sometimes it has good writed episodes. Angel doesn't have any actually bad things in it (you could say it's almost perfect!) compared to any other TV show or program.
In case your wondering... I stop fighting for Angel only when it is 100% it's not coming back. Now it is like 25% or 33% sure. =D (my own estimate) And im sure Beady Eyes has also find out thing or two that Angel isn't over yet? ;)

OK! You can forget that about boycotting WB these 5 weeks if you like smallville that much. But remember that if you do just that smallvilles ratings would go up ALSO after 5 weeks?!? Just saying...

Now final words: If you help us spread the word to tell everyone to watch Angels last episodes on WB then ratings go up and WB picks Angel to it's SIXTH SEASON!! Thank you very much! :eek:

vyperman7

03-06-2004, 08:10 AM

Hessu Hopo,

Angel is a very good show, and one of my favorites. But the reason I would choose Smallville, is because I have been a lifelong Superman fan. For the most part, I have been very satisfied with Smallville and the writing. The only problem I have with the show right now, is that the writers are focusing on ways to use Kryptonite, and less on Clark, his origins, and the other characters.

As far as a 6th season goes, I hope that it happens. I signed the petition to save the show a while back. However, there is not much more I can do than sign the petition and watch the final episodes for season 5. Personally though, I don't think that the WB would want to look like idiots. Them taking Angel back would be admitting to their mistake, and tv networks like to look infallible. I was bummed when UPN passed. I don't think that 6 episodes is enough time to end the show the way that it should be ended.

I am just as big an Angel fan as anyone else that watches the show. I just like Superman better, and Smallville is a Superman related TV show.

Beady Eyes

03-06-2004, 08:43 AM

Well said Vyperman.

Hessu,

I respect your passion for Angel to renew. I think you need to dial it back a bit though. Ranting and raving at people is definately not going to stir anybody to your cause.

Suggesting that people not watch Smallville and that they download the episode is not realisitic because not everyone here can do that or wants to do that.

I think the WB's position has been plainly obvious from the get go, and that is to end the show this season. The reason they are reconsidering, and this has not been confirmed by them yet, is because their affiliates are voicing concern over the cancellation. Their affiliates are not concerned because they really like Angel, but because it does well on their network and thus makes them money.

The information that the affiliates are using is the same information that has always been at the disposal of the WB. The WB is not disputing, and has said so in recent weeks, the shows loyal core following or the excellent story telling that Joss and co have done for them. The WB is simply stating that the show is not drawing "new" viewers and that if it isn't doing that, it is not as big a money maker for them as say a show that will be hyped for months that could bring in new viewers all together.

I don't think that anyone watching the show for the first time starting with the final episodes will be turned into Angel fans, because most of the stories are interdependant on each other. I know that I have been watching from the beggining and sometimes I feel a little lost.

Angel is a wonderful show, and I can only hope that it continues. I have signed the petitions and I will watch the programs, beyond that, I am done. I am not going to run into the streets and tell people to watch the show because frankly, I don't know a lot of people that the genre appeals to.

I look forward to completing my Angel and Buffy DVD sets in the coming year or so. I look forward to Joss and his new movie "Serenity" based on the Firefly series. I look forward to seeing a spinoff from either of the two shows someday.

Thanks for all your efforts, just don't lose sight of who you are fighting for and why.