#2-3 "Belle Chose" [Archive] - KSiteTV Television & Movie Forums

nicmar

10-09-2009, 09:55 PM

This episode was not that good in fact it was poor, maybe the worst since stage fright last year. I will make my weekly statement that there was no progress to the overall story, and we had yet another engagement of the week that was silly on both fronts.

The episode opens with Ballard playing fish out of water again, which was not anything new but for some reason it grated, and then when he goes into his speach about how a "romantic" engagement was just Echo being pimped out it kind of underlined the seedyness of the show. Also we got to see more of the prep that goes into the dolls make overs but the sterotypical fasion guru was not in any way amussing.

Also since when can college professors afford the monitary price or have the connections for the Dollhouse. Also it seems like he could have had any number of hookers play a naughty school girl or co-ed as the case may be and not pay a million dollars for it( which is the price per engagement) accourding to season 1.

This week we get more of humanizing Topher please make up your minds is he a misunderdstood geek or a sociopath seeing as we have seen both this year. The sceens with Ballard interrogating our killer were probably the best part of the show and for the first time I got the sense that he was actually remotely good at his job. However you really left the guy unguarded really a serial killer? Then the big revilation that the accident happened near the were he was keeping the women duh. But the bigger question was why even imprint him in the first place Topher told you he was a serial killer and the disscussion with his uncle was about finding the women so he could buy off the women who were kidnapped which was also far beyond the relm of pluasibility no one is going to take a check and say no I was not kidnapped druged and posed then watched someone else have their head caved in.

The conclusion of the episode was weak as well first I saw the imprint switich comming a mile away because god forbid Echo does not have a glitch in an episode. Also I think it would have been better to keep Eliza out of the spotlight for once. the last sceen with Echo repeating somthing for her last imprint we have seen that 10 times already, also she seems to have regressed from knowing that she had been all of the personalities that had come before to repeating a one phrase. I know that is was meant to be creepy, but it did not work

Next episode looks intresting but I am starting to wonder if this pattern of one step foward two steeps back will ever end.

hansioux

10-10-2009, 03:42 AM

However you really left the guy unguarded really a serial killer?

Well, they did not expect Saul Tigh would kill his physical nephew just to bust out his nephew's brain dump.

Anyway, I agree the plot is moving a bit slow. And Dollhouse is no BSG or TSCC. But I think the premise of the show is setup for more independent episodes. I am very interested to see where Whisky went. Maybe that'd be the next plot development. It doesn't always has to be Echo moving the plot arc.

actaeon

10-10-2009, 02:24 PM

This episode wasn't quite up to the standard set by the previous two this season, but I still call it brilliant. This is IMO simply the best thing on television.

What I love about this show is how amoral these people are. Not immoral, amoral. Morality comes a distant third in their lives; after business acumen (Adele) and technical prowess (Topher). And I think the point of the show-- and what makes it brilliant, revolutionary, and thought provoking-- is that it raises the question, are we as moral as we'd like to think we are? Looking at ourselves as individuals, looking at our institutions, are we all that different from Topher or Adele?

In "Temptations", their amorality gets tested. Turns out, they are willing to "do the right thing"... as long as it isn't likely to cost them anything. Sure, they'll try to stop a serial killer. They've got the materials and the resources at hand-- a doll and a handler who happens to be ex-FBI-- and they're willing to spend a little time on the project, free, gratis, and without pay.

It all goes horribly and somewhat comically wrong.

And in the end, the sick-o kidnapper gets rough justice, Dollhouse-style. He won't be dreaming anymore...

Adele, Topher and crew see themselves as good guys. We don't see them that way, of course. But we see ourselves as good guys... at least, I think of myself as a good guy. Maybe, just maybe, I'm as deluded as they are...

kernel_thai

10-11-2009, 01:02 AM

I actually liked this better than the first two. I liked Victor as the serial killer and I liked the way the tech was used for something that made sense. (dumping the comatose killer into Victor so he could be interrogated) Unfortunately the promising beginning didnt go anywhere. I did think Victor as Kiki was funny.

I see this extremely exclusive and expensive service can now be afforded by a college professor. Maybe it was coupon day.

Michael Hogan was totally wasted. The idea that Hogan's character could just walk out with an active completely contradicts several previous shows detailing Dollhouse security.

Glitchy Cameron ... oops ... Echo has become a major theme ... its already been establish she remembers other imprints. The interesting question is what was she imprinted as when she was warning the captives to kill her? Not Kiki. She's searching for Caroline so it wasnt her. She wasnt in her doll state or she likely would have rolled up into a ball. She must have been in help Ballard mode, whatever state thats supposed to be.

darkphoenix21

10-11-2009, 01:06 PM

It shaping up to be a decent series. They just need to get on with the major story arc and not rely on filler episodes/ episodes that have no real purpose to catch the audience's attention. Each episode should be like a mini movie event. It's seems that the series will once again begin several episodes later into the season. I'm looking forward to the orgin story of Sierra and the introduction of Summer Glua's character afterward.

Hopefulsuicide

10-11-2009, 06:04 PM

I breathed a sigh of relief after this episode, because I was beginning to wonder if the show was going down hill... but it's okay! We're back on form.

I think I just prefer it when another doll is involved, and I genuinely loved Victor in this episode. It was just so well pulled off.

Plus, Boyd was handling Echo again :) I feel like we need to rebuild that connection... not much is done with Boyd. TBH not much is done with any of them. In terms of characterisation (which Joss is usually amazing at) i'm not really feeling it for Boyd, Sierra or Victor. We had a bit of Topher (the birthday friend doll) and Adele (victors engagements) but not enough to feel like I know these people well.

P.s. I don't in any way understand how they did that remote wipe/exchange...

This episode was not that good in fact it was poor, maybe the worst since stage fright last year. .

Nothing could ever come close to that... :p

Also since when can college professors afford the monitary price or have the connections for the Dollhouse. Also it seems like he could have had any number of hookers play a naughty school girl or co-ed as the case may be and not pay a million dollars for it( which is the price per engagement) accourding to season 1. .

The money thing I did think about, but who's to say he wasn't something else before he was a proffesor. There could be any number of reasons why he has money/connections.

As for your second statement, I think your missing the entire point of the Dollhouse... it's supposed to be worth paying for because it's genuine, not pretend.

This week we get more of humanizing Topher please make up your minds is he a misunderdstood geek or a sociopath seeing as we have seen both this year..

When have we seen him as a sociopath? I think it's fairly clear he is just a man who sees shades of grey but doesn't think too much about it because he aspires to do 'great' things.

The sceens with Ballard interrogating our killer were probably the best part of the show and for the first time I got the sense that he was actually remotely good at his job..

I thought that too :lol:

Then the big revilation that the accident happened near the were he was keeping the women duh..

Why duh? He could have been anywhere in town... it was just a good guess from Ballard, and a lucky one at that.

But the bigger question was why even imprint him in the first place Topher told you he was a serial killer and the disscussion with his uncle was about finding the women so he could buy off the women who were kidnapped which was also far beyond the relm of pluasibility no one is going to take a check and say no I was not kidnapped druged and
posed then watched someone else have their head caved in. .

He was imprinted so they could find the women before they starved to death. I think that had a point too it.

And plenty of people accept bribes, even victims. Money makes the pain easier. I personally wouldnt accept the bribe... but then i suppose everyone has there price dont they.

The conclusion of the episode was weak as well first I saw the imprint switich comming a mile away because god forbid Echo does not have a glitch in an episode. .

Yup, that's getting annoying

Also I think it would have been better to keep Eliza out of the spotlight for once. the last sceen with Echo repeating somthing for her last imprint we have seen that 10 times already, also she seems to have regressed from knowing that she had been all of the personalities that had come before to repeating a one phrase. I know that is was meant to be creepy, but it did not work.

It so wasn't neccesary... and kinda didn't make sense... cause Echo didn't like the man so why would she be using his saying like that...

And did Ballard kill that guy? I wasn't quite sure of that...

nicmar

10-11-2009, 06:16 PM

Couple of things First I understand the point of the Dollhouse that it provides a unique experience but this one is so easily replicated it just seemed out of place, I get people who want the perfect woman or one more day with a dead loved one, but as I said horny co-ed their is a fair chance he could find that on his own.

Topher has up until recently been portraied as someone with out a moral center, he is not evil per say but he has no issues erasing or imprinting personalities. He never viewed the actives as people just things for him to reprogram like a computer. In fact in the episode they even make a joke that the guy must be pretty bad if Topher has a moral objection

The reason I said Duh is because if a person had abducted people and was holding them hostage there is a good chance that they are not going to leave the victums for too long so they would not go that far to prevent an escape attempt, even with the drugs. Also he was already injured before the accident another thing that pointed to the fact that he could not have made it too far form his point of origin.It seemed obvious to me maybe not as much to others, Also it takes days for people to starve to death I honstly think that they would have figured out that he was not comming back before that.

Finally yes your right that all kinds of people take payoffs but usally not after the ordeal that the women in the show went through, it was seemed far to elaberate and trumatic to just by off.

Hopefulsuicide

10-11-2009, 06:21 PM

Couple of things First I understand the point of the Dollhouse that it provides a unique experience but this one is so easily replicated it just seemed out of place, I get people who want the perfect woman or one more day with a dead loved one, but as I said horny co-ed their is a fair chance he could find that on his own.

The reason I said Duh is because if a person had abducted people and was holding them hostage there is a good chance that they are not going to leave the victums for too long so they would not go that far. It seemed obvious to me maybe not as much to others, Also it takes days for people to starve to death I honstly think that they would have figured out that he was not comming back before that.

Finally yes your right that all kinds of people take payoffs but usally not after the ordeal that the women in the show went through, it was seemed far to elaberate and trumatic to just by off.

Does happen though, but I know what you mean... I couldn't imagine it myself.

I know it takes days to starve to death, but who knows how long he would have been in that coma for... or if he'd ever come out. he had them locked up... they could have starved to death.

And yeah, you would think the paranoia of a killer would keep him close to the girls, but you never know lol. Besides I didn't think they made that big a deal out of it for it too seem like a big revelation.

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----

Still not sure people are visiting here on show nights, but in case... here's a thread for discussing the 10/9/09 episode!

Everywhere else I look has this eppies name down as 'Belle Chose'...

Xanderman

10-11-2009, 09:30 PM

Topher: "This is a brain. A healthy brain. Frankly, an overly smart brain. It's my brain!" :lol:

Eliza plays a great ditz. This was hilarious from her:

Echo: "I probably never should've taken this course to begin with, but I figured it was Med-Evil Lit, not Advanced Evil--how hard could it be. So I skipped Intro to Evil or whatever, but--"

Professor Horny: "It's Middle English."

Echo: "Right, like Hobbits or something."

The entire skit was funny. Truly the role Eliza was born to play!

This was a great episode, both for its writing and its directing. A Tim Minear/David Solomon combo apparently, so double the experience to back it. Big plot hole though as Kernel mentioned, that the old man could just walk out with his doll-son. Once again (this has come up before last season), where's the security? And the answer of course is, it doesn't matter.:cool: heh j/k Another plot hole is how the professor could afford to use a doll, as Nicmar and Kernel pointed out above.

Everywhere else I look has this eppies name down as 'Belle Chose'...I was going to bring up the same thing.

The money thing I did think about, but who's to say he wasn't something else before he was a proffesor. There could be any number of reasons why he has money/connections.Sure, but if they don't explain it that way or shed light on it as such, it's not a natural assumption to make. The more natural assumption is that he in fact shouldn't be able to afford it or have the required connections to rent a doll. A decent explanation was definitely warranted here, I think.

But anyway, I also loved the episode. Easily the best of the season so far. Unlike some here I didn't mind at all that it wasn't an "arc" episode, since I hate the direction they're apparently taking it (ie. Epitaph One). Or perhaps more accurately, I hate the "knowing" ahead of time. Ruins things for me. This isn't Terminator afterall (as I've said before). Taking away the "mystery" part of Dollhouse's ultimate path or end unfortunately really hurts the experience. So I'm all for more standalones/"fillers"--keep 'em coming.

10/10

hansioux

10-11-2009, 11:03 PM

What I love about this show is how amoral these people are. Not immoral, amoral. Morality comes a distant third in their lives....

Adele, Topher and crew see themselves as good guys. We don't see them that way, of course. But we see ourselves as good guys... at least, I think of myself as a good guy. Maybe, just maybe, I'm as deluded as they are...

I love this discussion, and this kind of discussion shows me that Dollhouse is a great scifi story. Scifi is supposed to be thought provoking and Dollhouse is doing it. Even on an episode less liked by most is deep enough to generate great dialogue.

Besides, how can you fault an episode when there are lines such as "Topher is ethical issues. Topher!".

I mean that's just gold.

kernel_thai

10-11-2009, 11:09 PM

The whole professor scenario was ridiculous. Other than the money angle, I would have loved to have seen the imprint Topher used to create Kiki. Lot's of stupid and likes to dance. The purpose of the tech is to create the perfect person for the situation. All Kiki needed to bring to the table was horny. Also, there is the secrecy aspect. Dollhouses have to be very selective about clients because the whole operation is illegal. Why would they risk dealing with a middle income professor with a mundane sex fantasy? Its Effect and Cause writing (yes I made that up!!!) U see it a lot. The come up with a cool idea (ditsy college student Echo gets an F or Echo marries an arms dealer to help Ballard catch him, etc.) and then try and write something to realize that end. Maybe I should have called it The Means Justifies the End. :D

hansioux

10-12-2009, 12:11 AM

I think what people want to see is more episodes of Actives doing what they are supposed to do and accomplishing important tasks. Like in season 1 when Echo helped rescue the little girl. So that we don't get a sense of Dollhouse tech is not working and it's stupid. More of actives accomplishing stuff even beyond their programmed abilities will make the Echo glitch more significant.

Hopefulsuicide

10-13-2009, 05:48 PM

Sure, but if they don't explain it that way or shed light on it as such, it's not a natural assumption to make. The more natural assumption is that he in fact shouldn't be able to afford it or have the required connections to rent a doll. A decent explanation was definitely warranted here, I think.

Well since we know that a doll costs a mill, and that you can't just be anyone to get one, i considered it a natural assumption that he had that kind of money and those kinds of connections... not that he didn't

And why only this man? What about all the other people that have afforded the dolls... most of them have not had an explanation as to why they have money and connections... god last weeks guy was just a guy who lost his wife... and what about the guy from the pilot who wanted the bike racing dancing girl? did he look rich?

It would just take way too much time away from the characterisation of the main characters and the development of the storyline if every single episodes 'buyer' had to be given a full background history as to how they qualified for dollhouse customers IMO

hansioux

10-13-2009, 09:49 PM

kernel_thai

10-14-2009, 01:15 AM

Well since we know that a doll costs a mill, and that you can't just be anyone to get one, i considered it a natural assumption that he had that kind of money and those kinds of connections... not that he didn't

And why only this man? What about all the other people that have afforded the dolls... most of them have not had an explanation as to why they have money and connections... god last weeks guy was just a guy who lost his wife... and what about the guy from the pilot who wanted the bike racing dancing girl? did he look rich?

It would just take way too much time away from the characterisation of the main characters and the development of the storyline if every single episodes 'buyer' had to be given a full background history as to how they qualified for dollhouse customers IMO

Why is the money important? Because the show used it to establish the Dollhouse as an extremely exclusive club for the filthy rich. To spend a million on a few hours of pleasure u need to be worth hundreds of millions or billions. The figure was prolly written in just to provide a wow factor and now they seem to be trying to get away from the limitations it causes.

The problem with the whole Kiki and the Professor scenario is he didnt need a doll. The thing the dollhouse sells is programming. If his fantasy had been to have sex for an A with a hot young girl who also shared his passion for Chaucer and medieval lit I could have seen it. Im sure he could have gotten a girl to play vapid coed who likes to dance from any high class escort agency for a fraction of the cost.

Is it worth a line of dialog to establish this sort of thing? I guess it is since they established the Michael Hogan character's access to the Dollhouse based on his connections with Rossum.

One of my favorite movies is Strange Days and it has a very similar premise to Dollhouse. In Strange Days the new tech allows peoples thoughts and feelings to be recorded and then experienced by others. At one point the leading character, Lenny, is attempting to sell these clips to a new customer who happens to be a well to do lawyer. He tells him that this isnt about doing the things he can already do. That if he wants to ski he can fly to Aspen. It's about experiencing the things he cant do like robbing a bank. The Dollhouse tech is the same way. The reason people spend an obscene amount of money is to experience something they cant experience thru conventional means.

hansioux

10-14-2009, 01:58 AM

Is it worth a line of dialog to establish this sort of thing? I guess it is since they established the Michael Hogan character's access to the Dollhouse based on his connections with Rossum.

by the way, judging by the connection between Michael Hogan's character to Rossum, I now believe the mastermind behind Rossum will be played by Eddie James Omos.

nicmar

10-14-2009, 05:50 AM

Why is the money important? Because the show used it to establish the Dollhouse as an extremely exclusive club for the filthy rich. To spend a million on a few hours of pleasure u need to be worth hundreds of millions or billions. The figure was prolly written in just to provide a wow factor and now they seem to be trying to get away from the limitations it causes.

The problem with the whole Kiki and the Professor scenario is he didnt need a doll. The thing the dollhouse sells is programming. If his fantasy had been to have sex for an A with a hot young girl who also shared his passion for Chaucer and medieval lit I could have seen it. Im sure he could have gotten a girl to play vapid coed who likes to dance from any high class escort agency for a fraction of the cost.

Is it worth a line of dialog to establish this sort of thing? I guess it is since they established the Michael Hogan character's access to the Dollhouse based on his connections with Rossum.

One of my favorite movies is Strange Days and it has a very similar premise to Dollhouse. In Strange Days the new tech allows peoples thoughts and feelings to be recorded and then experienced by others. At one point the leading character, Lenny, is attempting to sell these clips to a new customer who happens to be a well to do lawyer. He tells him that this isnt about doing the things he can already do. That if he wants to ski he can fly to Aspen. It's about experiencing the things he cant do like robbing a bank. The Dollhouse tech is the same way. The reason people spend an obscene amount of money is to experience something they cant experience thru conventional means.

Exactly I made the same points in my posts about this episode, the fact is that It was established that the Dollhouse was secret and exclusive so to use it for just anything and anyone violates the shows own internal logic. Which to be honest has been an issue since the start, but the difference with last weeks show is that when you get a person like the the father in instnct you don't know who he is or what he does so it does not stand out as much but we know the client is a college professor and we know that they don't make that much money nor are they politicaly connected so it raises a red flag. This is another reason why the engagement of the week format does not work a while you run out of inresting things for the actives to do which is another reason we only really see Echos and not everyone elses.

CallMeClark

10-14-2009, 06:18 AM

Great episode. Had a good mix of humor!

I especially liked Ballard hugging Viktor. :lol:

Hopefulsuicide

10-14-2009, 06:34 AM

Okay, I don't know if it's the same in America, but over here, our Uni professors are usually ex succesful people.

I studied Journalism, and one of my teachers worked for 'The Sun' and was now freelance. That meant he had time to earn some cash on the side teaching a few hours a week.

Another teacher used to be a big wig in the ITV studios, but had taken time out to make a documentary and so had time to make some cash teaching us.

For all we know, this college proffessor teaching literature could have been a bestselling novelist. Or even simply someone born into money. Even people with money want to work, and teaching is a great thing to do with your free time.

Of course the guy has his little fantasy. He wants to shag one of his students. But it's not as simple as that.

There are a few things that the Dollhouse provides that a hired girl, or even the real thing could provide.

1. It's not pretend. No matter how much you try to convince me that he could have hired a girl to do the same thing for a lesser price, it wouldn't be the same. This 'Kiki' WANTS him. And not even in a horny way. His fantasy was about teaching a young girl to understand her sexual power and use it to make him helpless. That would be very hard for a hooker to fake... a hooker uses her sexual power all the time.

2. No consequences. Because of course, the problem with actually having sex with a student, or even having sex with a hooker is 'what if anyone finds out?' But the Dollhouse provides a completely consequence free experience.

3. You can literally pick the attributes you most like about a girl, and tell the Dollhouse. And when that girl comes out, she is literally your perfect women. Not some hooker you've told to pretend to be dumb and like dancing. But a young and sexy girl who really is a little dumb and likes dancing.

If you can't understand all this then I honestly think you missed the point of Adele's first speech about the Dollhouse.

'Everything you want. Everything you need. She will be. Honestly, and completely.'

nicmar

10-14-2009, 07:54 AM

First the amount of money college professors in the US it depends on what school they teach at and a few other factors and while they do make a good amount of money the best payed ones might make in $200,000 range a year. So they don't have millions of dollars to spend on somthing like the dollhouse. That said there are a million ways he could have the money from family money to who knows maybe he won the lottery, but he just doesn't seem like the extreamly rich or powerful type that the Dollhouse would have as a client.

Secodly ironicly it is pretend just not for the active, deep down the client knows that there is no student named Kiki just a doll named Echo. No matter how real the expereince is for the actives the clients still know that they bought and paid for the service.

Next there are consiquense wether that be in terms of money or legal actions The Dollhouse carries the same kind of penality as anyother way this man could indulge his fantasy they are just better at not getting caught. Your argument assumes that he would be caught with a hooker or an actually student if he is not then there is no consiquence as well, also since no one knows about the actives if he were caught with Kiki/Echo the same actions would likely be taken as with an actuall stuent because for all intents and pourposes thats what she is.

Also you discount the fact that the Dollhouse is illeagle as well and the should it be found out he faces much graver criminal penality while I don't think that will happen the point is the same you can't assumes he would be caught in one sinario and not in another.There are potential consiquense of either course of action plus he ends up dead as a result so there is that as well.

Your right in that the Dollhouse could make this fairly basic senario a unique or perfect fantasy for the professor but it just does not play as beleivable, and more importantly intresting for an episode of television.

Finally people can take different things away from statements like the one you quoted. It is not a matter of understanding just interpertation. For example some people can take it as simply as sales pitch, which can be made reardless whether it is true or not. Also there is nothing honest about the Dollhouse no matter what memories or personality traits the actives might show they are still programmed to feel a certian way a lie that some one beleives completly is not less a lie. The clients know that the expereince is not real, in the end the people they have their engagemnet with are not real, they did not honestly fall in love with them and would not have event beleived that they did if it werent for being programmed.

Welling_is_pretty

10-14-2009, 12:33 PM

No poll?

So this episode was good. Loved both Echo and Victor as Kiki (especially Enver--that scene where he hugs Paul? Priceless!).

I like the classifications (R means Romance?), and wonder what the other ones are.

"Topher has ethical Problems." Loved Boyd's expression!

I have always wondered about where they get the clothes for different engagements--now we know.

Ballard sitting with other handler--
"I won't even do this for my wife."
"I was trained at Quantico." :lol:

So was Echo supposed to look sorta 'Lolita' with those pigtails and all? Cause to me she did.

And how cliche that a client wanted to sleep with a student--didn't feel he could without getting caught and so hired a doll?

Ballard getting taken off Kiki's engagement and sent to interrogate Terry. What would they have done without Paul, I wonder?
"Any part of that a boy's name?" Ouch!

"Have you been practicing dentistry on large cats?" :D

"You know what that makes you? Very weird."

Ballard in FBI mode was awesome!

Terry recreating his family with people was creepy and a nice allegory for the darkside of the Dollhouse (the only difference between what Terry does and what Adelle does is she has the Dolls consent--and you know, doesn't kill them at the end of their contract).

"He'll be an empty headed robot wandering around Hollywood. He'll be fine." Zing! Oh Joss!

Echo becoming Terry and saving those girls, perhaps sacrificing herself to save them. Wow.

Putting Terry back in his comatose body and then the eerie pronouncement from Echo? Are we to assume that he left some of himself in her (she did say she can still "feel" them all, yes?)?

And next: Sierra's origins! Awesome!

But yeah, it was a good episode but not great. Reminds me of the beginning of Season 1. Don't know why it's taking them til the 6th episode to get all fired up each year....

hansioux

10-14-2009, 01:06 PM

but he just doesn't seem like the extreamly rich or powerful type that the Dollhouse would have as a client.

First, you don't have to look rich to be rich. Unless you are saying there are no professors with a million to spare in the USA period, otherwise the man spent a million dollars, I'd say he's rich. Yes, maybe most professors aren't rich, so then he's not most professors.

There are easily a couple of reason anyone could think of for him to be rich, born into it, wrote best selling books, wrote must use text books even.

If a professor wrote a must use text book for a breadth class, and makes 1 bucks per book (a text book cost over 100 frakking dollars). If 2 million students bought his book over the years, he'd have 2 million dollars. Just saying..

By the way, that number is largely deflated. Each fall there are 15 million freshmen students enrolled in the US. Plus a must use text book would be sold not just in the US but all over the world.

Secodly ironicly it is pretend just not for the active, deep down the client knows that there is no student named Kiki just a doll named Echo. No matter how real the expereince is for the actives the clients still know that they bought and paid for the service.

The second point is very valid. Though it doesn't just apply to this case. Because it is pretty much the issue with the premise of the series. So I am not sure why it should matter more in this case.

I think the professor's fantasy is not just having a student that would do him for grades. But to literally awaken a girls awareness of her sexual power over man. Because that is what he loves to teach. And that isn't easy to buy. Hookers and Escorts most likely already understand that power. So they would fail to satisfy his fantasy.

I don't think hookers or escort service would want to spend what seems like hours listening to an old dude explain medieval lit anyway.

nicmar

10-14-2009, 01:12 PM

As I said I conceede that the money could come form anywere but if we need to think of elaborate reasons for the person to have that kind of money it just does not work as well. I think more importantly than the money is the that the Dollhouse is supposed to be ultra-exclusive so the college professor does not look like he fits the bill and once again I will say that we can come up with a hundred reason why he might have that kind of connections but the fact that we would have to is an issue in and of itself. In the end I guess you eithe buy the premis or you don't I didn't but that's just me.

As for Hookers and mid-evil lit well I don't imagine they like alot of what they do so hearing Chauser probably isn't any worse

Hopefulsuicide

10-14-2009, 02:00 PM

The second point is very valid. Though it doesn't just apply to this case. Because it is pretty much the issue with the premise of the series. So I am not sure why it should matter more in this case.

And that is precisely why I give up in this debate. I feel like I'm argueing as to why anyone would want to use the Dollhouse... and truly, if you don't get that then you have a problem with the very point of the show... that people, when they have money, seek something MORE than just a hooker, of which they have probably had thousands of before they seek out the Dollhouse.

From the first episode I understood it. The guy wanted to find his child. He could have hired any kind of special agent or detective or negotiator. But it was his daughter, and he wanted the best. The Dollhouse provides this.

And back to this episode. The guy could very well have had any hooker pretending to be a school girl, but he wanted the BEST for his fantasy. The BEST pretense money could buy. Who knows why or how he afforded it. Maybe his wife was rich, died and left him a lot of money and they had fallen in love talking about chaucer when they were students. Maybe it'd make a good fanfiction. :lol:

But it is not neccesary to explain every single clients background history, especially not just because MOST professors don't have that much money. Neither do MOST doctors, MOST lawyers, MOST anything! There are very few people who do have millions to spend on something as dodgy as the Dollhouse.

What we know now is that the Dollhouse doesn't just deal with dodgy people in power, or businessmen, or internet moguls... it deals with anyone who can pay.

nicmar

10-14-2009, 02:40 PM

This is the last thing I will say in this subject, ultimatley it does not matter if guy a can afford the Dollhouse or why they would allow him to be a client although it would make for a good show to explain how people are introduced to the Dollhouse because I have honestly wondered were their clients come from and that is relivent to the show. To me thoes questions were never the point of the debate honestly after time it became a nitpicking thing. I don't think that anyone doesn't get the show and I do think to a certian extent this particular case is special in that I get that the Dollhouse is suposed to provide a service that no one else can, and that is fine I honestly think that there are good examples of this the pilot were Echo could in theory be the perfect hostage negotiator for a given situation and that is why she is more suited than a traditional police dective so the client going to the Dollhouse makes sense, or Brire Roes were in trying to help the girl they program what ammounts to an emotionally healthy adult version of that same girl so once again it's somthing that only the Dollhouse can provide. As did instinct in a way seeing as the client wanted his wife to raise their child because he could not invest himself emotionally and once again that make for a good premis. Even Stage Fright which is probably my least faviorite show the idea that they need to place a sleeper bodyguard is somthig that only the Dollhouse can do. there alot of other examples,however that is why it matters more in this case to me. what truly hurts temptation is that the professor story does not make for compelling television.

Yes all of the things that are stated above are true it is the best pretend that money can buy but does it really make you want to see what happens next? Yes the Dollhouse can make the perferct horny co-ed but what does that add to a particular episode. I just think that there are more intresting senerios to be explored more one of a kind things that the actives can do that no one else can not just that they can do it better.

hansioux

10-14-2009, 10:07 PM

This is the last thing I will say in this subject, ultimatley it does not matter if guy a can afford the Dollhouse or why they would allow him to be a client although it would make for a good show to explain how people are introduced to the Dollhouse

great, i would love to see that as well.

I also hope they establish a couple of regular clients that are not just into R rated missions. Maybe someone who requires a kind of expertize over and over. Season 1 was great because Helo being the FBI chasing Dollhouse around provides a great outside view and creates urgency.

Right now, the show doesn't have urgency. If they have a client who use the expertize repeatedly and forms a relationship with a doll with a certain imprint, and decided eventually decided to help her out, compounding that to Ballard and Echo wanting to bring down the dollhouse but at the same time can't rush into action, it'd probably have a lot more tension.

That said, Dr. Whiskey is out there, November is out there. Maybe there are placed so they can provide urgency.

but Dollhouse needs to hurry up to grab casual viewers.

kernel_thai

10-14-2009, 10:18 PM

The point is that it cheapens the show. The Dollhouse is a nuclear weapon. The Dollhouse is 007. The Dollhouse is winning MegaMillions. The Dollhouse is a flight first class nonstop to Australia and having Summer Glau in the seat next to u. Its Fantasy Island. If u make it about mundane things it just makes The Dollhouse a ho house and there's nothing special anymore.

They have 13 eps a year, I think they can come up with 13 believable clients. If they cant then they should rethink the premise.

ginnyfan

10-14-2009, 11:25 PM

I thought this episode was boring. The best part was Victor as Kiki.

I'm having trouble seeing the Dollhouse as more than a high tech brothel also.

I thought it was interesting that Echo couldn't control Serial Killer guy when he was in her head after she woke up/glitched.

I'm looking forward to the Sierra focused episode.

Xanderman

10-15-2009, 05:57 PM

Hopefulsuicide

10-16-2009, 12:28 PM

it would make for a good show to explain how people are introduced to the Dollhouse because I have honestly wondered were their clients come from and that is relivent to the show.

Yes all of the things that are stated above are true it is the best pretend that money can buy but does it really make you want to see what happens next? Yes the Dollhouse can make the perferct horny co-ed but what does that add to a particular episode. I just think that there are more intresting senerios to be explored more one of a kind things that the actives can do that no one else can not just that they can do it better.

To statement A, I say very true. It would be great to see the process from the beginning to end. Maybe we will soon. We are still getting bits and peices. Like this episode showing us the process of them going from the chair to the engagement, we are still only seeing fragments but peices are becoming clearer.

To statement B, I also agree that it wasn't a thrilling engagement. But I think there were 2 reasons for that.

1. It was the B plot. The Victor is a serial killer plot was the A plot. It then got transferred into Echo, which showed us just how dangerous being any client, sexual or otherwise, of the Dollhouse can be, and also made sure the episode went out with an Eliza Bang :lol:

2. It's important to every now and then be reminded that sex is going to be the most popular of engagements. Otherwise it simply wouldn't feel realistic. If the Dollhouse is to be believable, then you can't have the only engagements we ever see the dolls on being altruistic or some kind of 'mission'. There has to be this seedier side, an almost sick unsettling feeling. It's what keeps the show from becoming boring to me. Otherwise it's just another secret agent show like Alias.

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----

True, but I also agree with kernel that they could at least try to throw us a bone in the form of a quick one-liner or something (something's better than nothing). Anyways, I get what you're saying.

Yeah they could have. But after about 7 or 8 clients all mentioning in a one liner how they got their money and how they knew about the Dollhouse, it'd get a bit in your face :lol:

nicmar

10-16-2009, 12:56 PM

I agree that this was plot was the B story although the Echo story is always give a good amount of time no matter what. I also apreciate the seedier aspect of the show and that's fine but they have handled the dollhouse as a brothel better in the past. For example there was a sceen last year with Echo as a dominatrix which probably would have raised the same types of issues if it had been give alot of time, "why would some one go to the Dollhouse to hire a dominatrix when they could just hire a regular one?" but the sceen was so short it really did not matter although it did come of as just an excuse to see Eliza in the outfit.

i do think there is a place for these types of stories and in some regard the are essential to the universe. However why not go in to more depth on the types of people who need this kind of experence, or the fact that it is, not romance and a real person is forced to play out anothers fantasies in essence against thier will, again I think there are more compelling ways to examine this aspect of the show as well.

kernel_thai

10-17-2009, 01:36 AM

2. It's important to every now and then be reminded that sex is going to be the most popular of engagements. Otherwise it simply wouldn't feel realistic. If the Dollhouse is to be believable, then you can't have the only engagements we ever see the dolls on being altruistic or some kind of 'mission'. There has to be this seedier side, an almost sick unsettling feeling. It's what keeps the show from becoming boring to me. Otherwise it's just another secret agent show like Alias.

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----

Yeah they could have. But after about 7 or 8 clients all mentioning in a one liner how they got their money and how they knew about the Dollhouse, it'd get a bit in your face :lol:

They obviously went to school on Le Femme Nikita. The cast structure is very similar. Parallels can be drawn between Nikita and Echo, Operations(Paul?) and Adele, Michael and Ballard, Walter and Dr. Saunders, Madeline and Dominic and Seymore and Topher.

As to the sexual aspects making it more interesting, porn is a mover and shaker in many successful technologies. Porn drove the video tape industry and the growth of the internet. It only follows that this new tech would also be driven by sex. The show itself tries to sell it sexual aspects. U only have to look at the marketing of Eliza Drusku in just a thong in the Dollhouse graphic.

As to the clients and their money thing, its not about clients and money its about the writing of the show. We used to have this argument all the time on the T:SCC board. In the original Terminator, James Cameron set up strict rules for time travel: couldnt bring anything back, only things wrapped in living tissue can go, after Kyle Reese went the machine was destroyed. Cameron set those rules to put a premium on the Terminator vs Reese and Sarah showdown. No plasma weapons, no reinforcements. It was a fight to the finish and winner take all. Then in subsequent movies and the show the rules got lost. It got to a point on the show where time travel was like taking the bus. The result was it cheapened the concept.

I believe Groucho Marx said he'd never join any club who would have him as a member. Its the same thing.

hansioux

10-17-2009, 07:42 AM

As to the clients and their money thing, its not about clients and money its about the writing of the show. We used to have this argument all the time on the T:SCC board. In the original Terminator, James Cameron set up strict rules for time travel: couldnt bring anything back, only things wrapped in living tissue can go, after Kyle Reese went the machine was destroyed. Cameron set those rules to put a premium on the Terminator vs Reese and Sarah showdown. No plasma weapons, no reinforcements. It was a fight to the finish and winner take all. Then in subsequent movies and the show the rules got lost. It got to a point on the show where time travel was like taking the bus. The result was it cheapened the concept.

I believe Groucho Marx said he'd never join any club who would have him as a member. Its the same thing.

I never got the feeling that time travel was taking a bus on TSCC. Every time travel came at a cost. And it is established in the Terminator Universe that everytime you change the past, the rules are no longer in place. Otherwise why even bother with destroying Skynet in the present if future can not be changed? Then the concept of No Fate would be ruined.

In the first movie, the humans were winning the war. The Resistance captured and controlled the time gate after they found it. But from the moment T800 was sent back, it creates a different time line and it's a whole new ball game.

In TSCC they never broke the rule about not being able to bring anything through the time gate. Cromartie's head jumped through the gate the moment he was hit by the Isotopic weapon. The flesh on the head burnt as soon as it came through the gate. The reason why they couldn't do a slow motion of his face burning off is because they are on Network television.

Later they had the resistance fighter who came through the gate as he was being shot by the machines. The bullet was in his body during the jumped and when he came through the jump, the bullet created the exit wound. It's exactly the same situation as how a living tissue terminator T800 was able to came through the jump in the first movie.

The REAL problem lies with the T1000s, since they have no living tissue. Essentially they are liquid metal that can change to look like something else. Unless T1000s transformation actually creates real skin, otherwise there shouldn't have been the second movie. And without the 2nd movie, frankly there would have been no franchise.

Back to Dollhouse, they need to get away from mission of the week SOON.... but since all the stories were written by now.... i can only hope they realized this earlier than we did.

I saw a lot of stuff I would like to see in this thread alone proposed by everyone. Like see how someone learns and becomes a client of Dollhouse. And they need to get back to "there's more to Dollhoue than meets the eye" thing. I want to see how the governments are connected to the Dollhouse.

Xanderman

10-17-2009, 04:08 PM

I never got the feeling that time travel was taking a bus on TSCC. Every time travel came at a cost. And it is established in the Terminator Universe that everytime you change the past, the rules are no longer in place. Otherwise why even bother with destroying Skynet in the present if future can not be changed? Then the concept of No Fate would be ruined.

In the first movie, the humans were winning the war. The Resistance captured and controlled the time gate after they found it. But from the moment T800 was sent back, it creates a different time line and it's a whole new ball game.There was only one timeline in the original film (for more detailed explanations from me-> (http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132395). Later films and the tv series weren't the same kind of time travel story. Similarities existed between them, with ideas such as certain things being set and destined to ultimately or eventually occur no matter what, but they weren't really the same. While the movies tried to tie together a lot more, the series was more its own thing in many ways, as it purposely ignored the events of Terminator 3 in order to tell a different story regarding the events leading up to Judgment Day and beyond. In my opinion this undoubtedly played a role in dooming the series to cancellation or not existing past Terminator 4's release.

Surely the TSCC people should have foreseen this obvious conflict issue, which makes me wonder what they were thinking not trying to wrap up the story far more than they did by the end of season 2, instead of leaving things totally unresolved in favor of a cliffhanger ending, in a clearly last ditch attempt to get another season. Making TSCC separate from the movies was a shortsighted move from the get-go, especially if they knew going in that another movie was on the horizon, one in which characters like (and events linked to) Cameron and Derek and Weaver etc don't even exist (and never existed). That said, I would much rather have seen the tv series continue over the movie franchise. T4's story/characters/writing etc was nothing compared to the far more rich and layered (and fun) TSCC.

nicmar

10-17-2009, 05:21 PM

I really don't think that the timeline issue or the addition of new charcters had anything to do with the cancelation of TSCC the time line was compromised as of the secod film at first there was only one Terminator sent back in time then two and if the resistance had won the war, and had reprogrammed Terminators why not send back more than just Kyle Resses the same with skynet why not send the original termainator and the T1000 to 1984 together. No one cared about these issues because the movie was good. For that matter John Conner in essenece gives birth to himself and if we follow the event of T2 so does Skynet. so there are issues with time travle form day one.

Ignoring the events of T3 was the only way to do a series in the first place, in that movie the core edict of no fate was thrown away so in a world were there was no stopping judgment day there would be no point in having a series. The series had many issues aginst it bad night weak lead in heavy compition and later Friday death slot which in my opinion contributed more to it's early demise.

As for T4 impacting the show no on really cared about the film it did disapointing box office numbers. In fact the buzz on the film was in many peoples opinion going to make people care about the franchise again which it did not. Finally many franchises have had tv and film incarnations that have used different charcters and continuity and had scusses. Smallville is not the same Superman form the comics nor is he the same as movie superman, I honestly think that people can grasp the conept that different projects in the franchise are telling different stories and you can judge them on their own merits.

Hopefulsuicide

10-17-2009, 06:32 PM

Back to Dollhouse, they need to get away from mission of the week SOON.... but since all the stories were written by now.... i can only hope they realized this earlier than we did.

I saw a lot of stuff I would like to see in this thread alone proposed by everyone. Like see how someone learns and becomes a client of Dollhouse. And they need to get back to "there's more to Dollhoue than meets the eye" thing. I want to see how the governments are connected to the Dollhouse.

well the next few episodes definitely look to be moving away from the 'engagement of the week' formula, so I'm really looking forward to them, especially the very next episode :)

nicmar

10-17-2009, 06:48 PM

well the next few episodes definitely look to be moving away from the 'engagement of the week' formula, so I'm really looking forward to them, especially the very next episode :)

Back on topic yeah I do think that next weeks show could be a big step foward for Dollhouse it will give on of the other actives a backstory and some more of an emotional hook as well as it looks like pushing the bigger story forward

kernel_thai

10-17-2009, 08:07 PM

Im also a little hopeful of next weeks ep, tho not for the same reason. I enjoy Sierra and wish she could get a larger slice of the regular pie. Instead, she's getting her own pie for one week. Im not really interested in the recruitment process. They have already touched on this topic twice; once with Echo and once with November. What I am interested in is the social and political ramifications of this technology. Im hoping the Senators investigation is more about the people behind the (military and government) and less about locating the dollhouse. Its hard to believe a full blown tech like this has been realized without government sanction and exploration of military applications.

As for the "no fate" tenant, the inevitability of Judgment Day pretty much cancels that out. The different timelines change the details but the result is the same.

Xanderman

10-17-2009, 08:10 PM

if the resistance had won the war, and had reprogrammed Terminators why not send back more than just Kyle Resses This is where the causal loop comes into play. Future John knows the past (since there's only one past, one universe), and knows Reese is all it takes to save his mom from Skynet's assassin, and at the same time accomplish another crucial task--that being, to father him. Future John acted to fulfill the past, not change it, through his "messiah"-like pre-knowledge of what would happen (I discuss it more here if you're interested: http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132395).

the same with skynet why not send the original termainator and the T1000 to 1984 together. The generally accepted explanation for this I believe is that Skynet wants to minimize the interference it causes in the past--as it wants the future to play out pretty much exactly the same way--except without any John Connor around to defeat it. As for the T1000, I think that only gets sent afterward as a result of Arnie's apparent failure in 1984--as sending him had no effect to the timeline (ie. Skynet still lost). So Skynet decides to try again, this time with a better model...perhaps the 1000 does indeed only get created afterward as a result of Arnie's failure, however that doesn't really make the greatest sense I think since sending Arnie back was apparently its "last ditch" attempt to change things...Skynet was supposed to be pretty much finished at this point, so how could it develop new technology? So I'm not really sure about this....maybe T2 Arnie explained...can't remember.

For that matter John Conner in essenece gives birth to himself and if we follow the event of T2 so does Skynet. so there are issues with time travle form day one.Actually there are no issues with this from a time travel perspective, and is part of what makes it a "causal loop", one which is logically self-sustaining. It's time travel that makes these seemingly impossible things, possible. Going backwards in time allows for effects to seemingly precede their causes--or as in the case of a causal loop, for causes and effects to seemingly be the mutual causes and effects of one another.

Ignoring the events of T3 was the only way to do a series in the first place, in that movie the core edict of no fate was thrown away so in a world were there was no stopping judgment day there would be no point in having a series. I disagree that "no fate" was truly thrown away, but rather that this was what the characters believed and drove them. I firmly believe that on the series, ultimately they (particularly, John Connor) would have learned that certain things were indeed "set in stone" and inescapable. And the point would be discovering/understanding this. Basically the same thing JC learned at the end of Terminator 3, just arriving at it in a different way. I also believe that the "no fate" message from the original was passed along by Future John because that was the message that was passed along before (since it's a loop), and also because that it's this belief that keeps people (like his mom, Kyle, etc) alive and fighting (and not giving up). T3 was ignored in my view mainly in order to tell a different story surrounding the "lead up" to the final days before Judgment, and to create a more layered and complex story with more mysteries and unknowns for a more long-running serialized format. Not to ultimately stop Judgment Day or change the "big" things.

The series had many issues aginst it bad night weak lead in heavy compition and later Friday death slot which in my opinion contributed more to it's early demise.I'm not arguing that bad ratings and the like were likely the deciding factor, but the conflict between the series and film franchise couldn't have helped matters either (and so probably had least some role in their decision to end it, I would think, or again, couldn't have helped).

As for T4 impacting the show no on really cared about the film it did disapointing box office numbers. In fact the buzz on the film was in many peoples opinion going to make people care about the franchise again which it did not. Finally many franchises have had tv and film incarnations that have used different charcters and continuity and had scusses. Smallville is not the same Superman form the comics nor is he the same as movie superman, I honestly think that people can grasp the conept that different projects in the franchise are telling different stories and you can judge them on their own merits.Not disagreeing with you, just saying that it couldn't have helped matters. Especially given the more complicated nature of the Terminator mythology. Having conflicting continuities/universes running at the same time in similar mediums (tv/movies) might pose more of a problem for Terminator's case I think.

(By the way nicmar, no offense intended but would you mind putting a little more effort into your writing...punctuation, spelling, etc...I'd appreciate it....the run-ons in particular drive me, and I'm sure others, a little nuts. heh Thanks.)

----- Added 51 Seconds later -----

As for the "no fate" tenant, the inevitability of Judgment Day pretty much cancels that out. The different timelines change the details but the result is the same.Right.

hansioux

10-18-2009, 02:55 AM

Making TSCC separate from the movies was a shortsighted move from the get-go

Movies? Excuse me, you really just mean "movie" right, without the s?

TSCC is consistent with T1 and T2. The only movie it jumped over is T3, and that was done in the pilot episode. Judging from season 1 ratings, I don't think people turned away from the show because of T3 being ignored. Frankly I think most people wants to ignore T3. T3? what the frak is that?

The original Judgment Day is n August 29, 1997 . If you want to have new Terminator stories set in the present, then there has to be multiple timelines. Otherwise every story that you want to tell about John's journey before Judgment day would have to be a period piece. When Superman was created there were no personal computers, no cell phones, and there still was plenty of public phone booths and people actually read newspapers. You don't see people leaving because Clark uses a cell phone in Smallville.

It's a franchise. No one is complaining that the new Star Trek ships doesn't have dials. It's just how it works if a franchise spans over decades. And it is a crappy season to not watch a show with great stories.

By the way, T4 is not really consistent with the original movie either. Go figure. Maybe that's why it didn't do well either?

hansioux

10-18-2009, 03:50 AM

Back on topic yeah I do think that next weeks show could be a big step foward for Dollhouse it will give on of the other actives a backstory and some more of an emotional hook as well as it looks like pushing the bigger story forward

still a week away, can't wait....

----- Added 14 Minutes later -----

The generally accepted explanation for this I believe is that Skynet wants to minimize the interference it causes in the past--as it wants the future to play out pretty much exactly the same way

There lies the problem. You are saying there is only 1 timeline in T1. Yet it can be changed. By the time Skynet sent someone back, no matter how small a change it made, it is actually a different timeline.

The only real difference between 1 timeline or multiple is whether the altered timeline and people from the altered timeline disappear (think Back to the Future... mostly). Even if they do disappear, after the change it is still a different timeline, and things are not going to happen exactly the same.

The problem with predestination paradox is that you need a timeline without this paradox to begin messing with it. Because without the present there would be no future.

The only way to rationalize T1 stories is there exists an original timeline where John Connor is absent. In that timeline the resistance had to send Kyle back for whatever reason which created John Connor. In this timeline John became influential in defeating the machines. So Skynet in the new timeline decides they can not have this, they sent back their T1. Thus T1 is actually the second timeline with an original timeline not seen by us.

Time travel creates problems for story telling. There isn't a better time travel model for story telling. It doesn't matter what model of time travel you choose, it's basically has the same problems. In TSCC, it is possible that people from the alternate timeline doesn't disappear. It's interesting and not often seen. I really enjoyed the ramification of that. Though till the series end it wasn't clear of Jesse really is from an alternate timeline from the one that Derek is from.

Xanderman

10-18-2009, 02:43 PM

Movies? Excuse me, you really just mean "movie" right, without the s?
No, I meant movies as in the movie franchise as a whole, which includes the third and fourth films. They all connect with each other, or continue from one another (or at least were meant to). So, you're excused, hansioux.:cool: heh

Judging from season 1 ratings, I don't think people turned away from the show because of T3 being ignored.
I don't believe I implied otherwise...or at least didn't intend to. lol... When I talked about making TSCC separate being shortsighted, I didn't mean from T3 specifically or on its own, I meant from the franchise/story as a whole, which again, includes T3, and then T4 after that. TSCC was telling a different, independent story with a different lead-up to J.D. for example, along with different characters of importance in the universe (such as Derek, Cameron, Weaver, etc.). This is what I was referring to. Hopefully what I was trying to say makes more sense to you now....if not, let me know.

Frankly I think most people wants to ignore T3. T3? what the frak is that?Well, I liked it. It wasn't great but it did tie in with the overall story/mythology in some interesting ways. Like having John end up surviving the bombs only because of his pre-knowledge of what was to come, and trying to prevent it (ending up in that bunker--in line with the whole "causal loop" thing, or at least a set ultimate fate, as the strict unchanging causal loop of the original was abandoned by this point in the franchise). I also loved the free will vs determinism problem raised when John held a gun to his own head threatening to off himself, to hell with fate. The neat thing here is that he ultimately chooses not to kill himself, so one can see even this event where he thinks he's "rebelling" against fate, as itself predetermined and in line or consistent with his fate. Fun stuff.

The original Judgment Day is n August 29, 1997 . If you want to have new Terminator stories set in the present, then there has to be multiple timelines. Otherwise every story that you want to tell about John's journey before Judgment day would have to be a period piece.No argument from me there bud, in fact I've discussed this many times. I see you haven't been following my posts in the TSCC forums...heh.

By the way, T4 is not really consistent with the original movie either. Go figure. Maybe that's why it didn't do well either?Who knows why T4 didn't do well. Maybe Bale's leaked outburst did more damage than expected...heh. And yeah I realize subsequent movies didn't have perfect consistency with the original with some retconning and the like going on. The first movie was a straightforward single timeline causal loop. No multiple timelines or changes of any kind were possible or implied. Everything was set, not just the big things, everything.

There lies the problem. You are saying there is only 1 timeline in T1. Yet it can be changed. By the time Skynet sent someone back, no matter how small a change it made, it is actually a different timeline.The timeline wasn't changed in T1. Please reread my comments above, as well as this: http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132395)

The only way to rationalize T1 stories is there exists an original timeline where John Connor is absent. In that timeline the resistance had to send Kyle back for whatever reason which created John Connor. In this timeline John became influential in defeating the machines. So Skynet in the new timeline decides they can not have this, they sent back their T1. Thus T1 is actually the second timeline with an original timeline not seen by us.No, just one timeline is necessary to explain things and is all that is implied by the end of the movie. Again please read my posts in that thread and go from there... Maybe you can respond there as well so we can move this off-topic discussion from this Dollhouse thread.:cool: (that other thread is a Heroes one but at least its topic is time travel related. heh)

Time travel creates problems for story telling. There isn't a better time travel model for story telling. It doesn't matter what model of time travel you choose, it's basically has the same problems.I disagree, some models/stories are smarter or more logical than others, in my opinion. Terminator happens to be one of the smarter ones.

kernel_thai

10-18-2009, 03:47 PM

Dollhouse has its own time travel issue. Most of the audience has time traveled to the future and knows where the story is heading. With an apocalypse looming in the not too distant future, Ballard's moralizing over the right and wrong of the Dollhouse is no longer the central issue of the show. As Judgment Day quickly approaches the show needs to be laying the groundwork for Typhoid Topher destroying the civilized world.

hansioux

10-19-2009, 01:14 AM

I don't believe I implied otherwise...or at least didn't intend to. lol... When I talked about making TSCC separate being shortsighted, I didn't mean from T3 specifically or on its own, I meant from the franchise/story as a whole, which again, includes T3, and then T4 after that. TSCC was telling a different, independent story with a different lead-up to J.D. for example, along with different characters of importance in the universe (such as Derek, Cameron, Weaver, etc.). This is what I was referring to. Hopefully what I was trying to say makes more sense to you now....if not, let me know.

nope, you are making no sense. TSCC replies heavily on T1 and T2. The first 2 movies is TSCC's bread and butter. From characters to stories to the constant reference to the events in the first 2 movies, TSCC is the continuation of the first two movies. While T3 is the first one to rewrite what is said to happen in T1 and T2. As for T4, John Connor was supposed to lead the resistance. And T800 is supposed to be the first endo with living tissue. Yet T4 we have John Connor not leading the resistance, and some dude with living tissue endo before the T800.

Be the way, the different character thing is ridiculous. Are you saying that after the events of T2, John wouldn't meet new people until Judgment Day? Isn't his supposed girl friend new characters in T3? By the way, in T3, they also created a new time line with in the movie itself. Before they sent back the TX, things happened different.

I disagree, some models/stories are smarter or more logical than others, in my opinion. Terminator happens to be one of the smarter ones.

no, actually original Terminator time travel model is the dumbest one. It makes a physically impossible thing even more silly than it has to. There are plenty of articles online telling how ridiculous original Terminator time travel is. But even if we buy all that because we are too distracted watching Sarah Connor being chased around by a unstoppable cyborg to care how ridiculous the time travel model is, in the end there still needs to be a initial condition for the time loop. i.e. the original timeline to getting up to the point of the first time travel.

It's like writing a function containing an endless loop. Before you kicked the endless loop into high gear, you still need to call it first. And calling that endless loop is the initial condition. Without it, the predestination paradox can not exist. So when ever you see a predestination paradox happen on screen, what really happens is we are seeing the loop after the first time travel. So to have John Connor exist in the future to send Kyle Reese back to father himself, Kyle Reese has to make the first timetravel when there was no John Connor in the untampered timeline.

And no thanks on discussing in the Heroes forum. This will do for me.

----- Added 4 Minutes later -----

Dollhouse has its own time travel issue. Most of the audience has time traveled to the future and knows where the story is heading. With an apocalypse looming in the not too distant future, Ballard's moralizing over the right and wrong of the Dollhouse is no longer the central issue of the show. As Judgment Day quickly approaches the show needs to be laying the groundwork for Typhoid Topher destroying the civilized world.

If that means Felicia Day will join Dollhouse again, then... i await judgment day :lol:

Xanderman

10-19-2009, 11:37 AM

nope, you are making no sense. TSCC replies heavily on T1 and T2. The first 2 movies is TSCC's bread and butter. From characters to stories to the constant reference to the events in the first 2 movies, TSCC is the continuation of the first two movies. While T3 is the first one to rewrite what is said to happen in T1 and T2. As for T4, John Connor was supposed to lead the resistance. And T800 is supposed to be the first endo with living tissue. Yet T4 we have John Connor not leading the resistance, and some dude with living tissue endo before the T800When did I say TSCC wasn't following the first two movies? I said it wasn't part of the movie franchise as a WHOLE. The movies are connected to each other as one long story (whether it's a perfect connection or not is beside the point I'm making). TSCC is of course connected to the first two, but it replaces T3's story/events and thus is independent from the MOVIE FRANCHISE/STORY AS A WHOLE. THAT'S ALL I'M SAYING.

Be the way, the different character thing is ridiculous. Are you saying that after the events of T2, John wouldn't meet new people until Judgment Day? Isn't his supposed girl friend new characters in T3?When I was talking about TSCC having different characters of importance in their universe, this was just in reference to it being independent from the rest of the movie franchise (which includes ALL FOUR FILMS). In the movie universe, which again, includes ALL FOUR FILMS, there is no Cameron, Derek, Weaver, etc. That's it, simple as that. You are misreading/misunderstanding my comments and are unfortunately going off on tangents as a result.

By the way, in T3, they also created a new time line with in the movie itself. Before they sent back the TX, things happened different. WHERE do I argue this is not the case? Again, tangents. Please stop doing that.

no, actually original Terminator time travel model is the dumbest one. It makes a physically impossible thing even more silly than it has to. There are plenty of articles online telling how ridiculous original Terminator time travel is.That's their (and your) opinion, I happen to disagree. It was far from silly, and actually a logically thought out way of how time travel might work in a single universe model, if time travel were possible. You just have yet to wrap your head around it. I was a lot like you in my thinking not too long ago. You just have to spend more time thinking about it before the understanding hits you.

in the end there still needs to be a initial condition for the time loop. i.e. the original timeline to getting up to the point of the first time travel.The original timeline, the ONLY timeline, has Kyle/Arnie in the past. Time travel makes this possible. It defies logic when you look at it in a "forward" perspective (ie. the idea that things must happen in the order of past, present, future in the timeline), but to properly wrap your head around the logic that is actually quite present here, you must take into account the apparent reversal of cause and effect relationships that can result when things/people from the future leave the future, and continue their existence in the past. And when a cause leads to a given effect in such a circumstance, that very same effect can end up leading back to its own cause--and this is the essence of a causal loop, which is logically self-sustaining (it is actually quite logical). This is the type of story we have here.

Further to this, in a single universe model, you can't do something "new" to the past (you can't change it). The past is set. This means if you send someone to the past, they were already there whether you realize it or not (and the reason they are in the past, is because you will send them or eventually send them). So you only end up fulfilling the past with time travel--this is where the term "predestined" comes into play. From the moment Kyle was born and Arnie was created, they were destined to one day leave the future and live out the rest of their days in the past (through an unalterable chain of events). Their older selves were already in "their timeline's past" (the one and ONLY timeline) before they left the future, they just weren't aware of that. Future John, however, is fully aware of these things, and knowingly sends Kyle back to fulfill his destiny, while Skynet sends Arnie back without the same knowledge (but with the same result--fulfilling the past). These specific factors (among others), of Future John knowing and Skynet not knowing, are directly linked to the mechanisms by which this particular loop in causality exists/sustains itself.

So to have John Connor exist in the future to send Kyle Reese back to father himself, Kyle Reese has to make the first timetravel when there was no John Connor in the untampered timeline. Once again, no, you are missing the concept at play here. You just need to think about it more, as once again I used to be a lot like you in my thinking. There is no such thing as an "untampered" timeline in a single universe model where time travel happens. The timeline is "tampered" by definition or by default, in a universe where only one universe (or one timeline) is possible or exists and time travel occurs. In this case, elements of the future leave the future and continue (and end) their existence in the past. And then these same elements lead back to the same future (forming a causal loop). You need to change your frame of mind to grasp this better.

So before you go off on tangents again and accuse me of not making sense, please take into account that you yourself are misreading/misrepresenting my comments repeatedly, and that I saw things a lot like you do not too long ago.

(Hansioux, I miss the days when all we would argue about was whether or not the new Knight Rider felt like V.I.P.....now THOSE were some meaningful conversations, weren't they? lol)

kernel_thai

10-19-2009, 04:24 PM

If that means Felicia Day will join Dollhouse again, then... i await judgment day :lol:

I saw Felicia Day on a Dollhouse panel at Dragoncon in Sept. She didnt want to give anything away plot wise but she hinted she'd be returning to Dollhouse at some point this season. i also so saw her on a Buffy panel and she had a two hour presentation on The Guild that included showing the first two seasons.

hansioux

10-19-2009, 11:51 PM

I saw Felicia Day on a Dollhouse panel at Dragoncon in Sept. She didnt want to give anything away plot wise but she hinted she'd be returning to Dollhouse at some point this season. i also so saw her on a Buffy panel and she had a two hour presentation on The Guild that included showing the first two seasons.

The Guild is hilarious... oh, poor Bladezz........ life is the suck for him right now....

----- Added 36 Minutes later -----

When did I say TSCC wasn't following the first two movies? I said it wasn't part of the movie franchise as a WHOLE. The movies are connected to each other as one long story (whether it's a perfect connection or not is beside the point I'm making). TSCC is of course connected to the first two, but it replaces T3's story/events and thus is independent from the MOVIE FRANCHISE/STORY AS A WHOLE. THAT'S ALL I'M SAYING.

T3 is not consistent with T1 and T2. And like I said, to have Sarah died in 2004, means that TSCC has to be a period piece. Besides, TSCC acknowledges events of T3 in the pilot. They just skipped forward in time to evade Cromartie and to go to a time when they know future Skynet first came to being in order to stop it.

When I was talking about TSCC having different characters of importance in their universe, this was just in reference to it being independent from the rest of the movie franchise (which includes ALL FOUR FILMS). In the movie universe, which again, includes ALL FOUR FILMS, there is no Cameron, Derek, Weaver, etc. That's it, simple as that. You are misreading/misunderstanding my comments and are unfortunately going off on tangents as a result.

They don't have to be there. It's a different time in John's life. And every time future John or Skynet sends stuff back, timeline is altered if not diverted.

By the way, that often is the problem with Time travel stories, with the reset button type situations can undo a lot of character development (same with dream sequence).

WHERE do I argue this is not the case? Again, tangents. Please stop doing that.

It's just seems a bit hypocritical when you say X and Y is the reason why TSCC failed, while these things constantly happen in the movies. If you acknowledge that same deal exist in T2, T3 and even T4, I don't see why TSCC is at fault here.

By the way, your single timeline theory of everything in the past is set, doesn't explain why in T3 the future is changed. Since events in T3 should have been the future's past, so it should have been set, things should have happened like T800 said it would.

If I suppose if you are saying the moment past is changed, it means the future is changes with it (duh moment, but I don't know what you are trying to get to). That since TX changed the past, so the future then exists as the events after T3. Then you are really just saying there were multiple timelines, but one just happens t o be erased.

Further to this, in a single universe model, you can't do something "new" to the past (you can't change it). The past is set.

Then why bother sending anyone back?

Look you are pretty much not making any sense here. And your theory only works if traveling to the past is the only option allowed. If someone travels to the future, then future is set as well? If that's part of the story I will buy it to enjoy the story. But this single universe/timeline crap doesn't exist in the movies. It is not set in stones. It doesn't have to be. Because It doesn't have to be a single universe/timeline to have a causality loop. And it doesn't make or break a Terminator story.

The concept of time travel to the past itself is impossible if you want to get down to the science of it. So insisting one universe can only have one timeline is the best model is rather pointless. There exist many time travel models. Those models are like super human origins in super hero stories. Superman and X-men have very different origin stories. There's no "better" origin sotry models, because it's the premise of the story and you have to accept it to enjoy the story.

Same thing with Time Travel. Time travel models can be anything. It can be Back to the Future, or anything else. It is not the whole of a story. If the story is done well, it really doesn't matter which model is used. The model doesn't make or break the story.

I believe TSCC obeyed T1 and T2 rules of time traveling. You don't. I believe the Terminator time travel is based on traveling in time creates multiple timelines. You don't. But who care, it doesn't affect the quality of the story at all. T2 broke the rules of time travel set by T1 and itself by introducing liquid metal traveling through time. No one cares because the story is done well.

(Hansioux, I miss the days when all we would argue about was whether or not the new Knight Rider felt like V.I.P.....now THOSE were some meaningful conversations, weren't they? lol)

It's too bad. NBC can't do anything right at this point. Let's just hope they don't screw up Chuck.

Hopefulsuicide

10-20-2009, 05:02 PM

Seriously, there is a TSCC thread if you wanna argue about TSCC...

Anyway, Sierra's story interests me alot, because it draws on what happened in my favourite season 1 episode 'Needs', in which we got a little hint that Sierra's 'doll' life was payed for by a dick head who wanted her to obey him... does no one else remember that?

It's something that very much needed explaining after that episode and could be a horrific way to enter the dollhousel. considering that all the people in the dollhouse are not evil, and do have morals, i'd be interested to see why it ends up this way!

ginnyfan

10-20-2009, 09:09 PM

Felicia Day's character returning this season would be exciting. "Epitaph One" was an amazing episode.

Anyway, Sierra's story interests me alot, because it draws on what happened in my favourite season 1 episode 'Needs', in which we got a little hint that Sierra's 'doll' life was payed for by a dick head who wanted her to obey him... does no one else remember that?

It's something that very much needed explaining after that episode and could be a horrific way to enter the dollhousel. considering that all the people in the dollhouse are not evil, and do have morals, i'd be interested to see why it ends up this way!

Oh that was stomach churningly horrible - the way Sierra became a doll. As unpleasant as the story probably will be, I am very interested in it. It'll be nice to see a supporting Doll's story fleshed out more.

Xanderman

10-20-2009, 11:30 PM

Seriously, there is a TSCC thread if you wanna argue about TSCC...I know, I'll stop now. Sorry about that.

Hansioux we'll have to agree to disagree because we're going in circles on some things, partly because you're still not following/misinterpreting some of the points I'm making or have made. Some I tried to clear up more than once, but seeing as they're still a problem for you, I think that's as far as we go. Anyway, until the next topic. (Unless you still really want to continue--if so, we'll probably have to move it somewhere else, but you said you didn't want to. Anyway, no worries either way.)

kernel_thai

10-21-2009, 12:50 AM

Anyway, Sierra's story interests me alot, because it draws on what happened in my favourite season 1 episode 'Needs', in which we got a little hint that Sierra's 'doll' life was payed for by a dick head who wanted her to obey him... does no one else remember that?

It's something that very much needed explaining after that episode and could be a horrific way to enter the dollhousel. considering that all the people in the dollhouse are not evil, and do have morals, i'd be interested to see why it ends up this way!

I hope its an interesting ep and Im glad to see Sierra have some screen time. I guess if its a good ep then it doesnt matter but its another tick off the clock. Establishing Sierra's backstory doesnt seem to drive the arc of the the show. It also establishes background on a character that they seem to be determined to keep in the background. I was hoping it would be more of an ensemble this season but it hasnt turned out that way.

Hopefulsuicide

10-21-2009, 06:41 PM

I hope its an interesting ep and Im glad to see Sierra have some screen time. I guess if its a good ep then it doesnt matter but its another tick off the clock. Establishing Sierra's backstory doesnt seem to drive the arc of the the show. It also establishes background on a character that they seem to be determined to keep in the background. I was hoping it would be more of an ensemble this season but it hasnt turned out that way.

I'm just so used to having characters immediately explained to me in a way that makes me feel like I know them when it comes to Whedon shows, which are usually 70% character driven and 30% plot driven. With Dollhouse, it's like the plot, the 'where this is going' stuff is taking up all the time and there is no time to get to know anyone along the way.

So I'm glad that they are taking the time now to explain who these people were, so that we don't just know them as dolls, but as who Echo is fighting for them to be again. It gives us a reason to want her to succeed, too see these people's wrongs put right.

Look at Firefly. Most of the episodes were stand alone, with a small thread of the Tams fugitive storyline running through it all. But there was never some big plot course. It was just a story about people. And that's why it is so much better.