#2.1 "Vows"

[Hopefulsuicide]

New series starts tomorrow night after Smallville! :D

Season 1 recap: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QR0RRMwEFHY

Season 2 clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ak2Iu0sqPCY

[nicmar]

I am looking foward to it hope that the relitivly strong DVD sales will bump the ratings. Dollhouse was a show that admittedly took some time to find it's footing but it came on strong. After seeing the unaired episode I really get the sense Joss has a big story to tell so I hope he gets a chance to tell it.

[skylar]

I can't wait to Dollhouse this season it should be a good one.

[darkphoenix21]

Two of my favorite shows are premiering their seasons 2night I can't wait!!!!

[Hopefulsuicide]

It's like heaven, isn't it?! :lol: Can't wait for the episodes :D

[nicmar]

it should be fun the early reviews are good it seems like the first season bumps have been smoothed out so I'm looking foward to it

[skylar]

Come on 9:00 can't wait!!

[A Flawed Fashion]

The new credits don't fit the song as well as the old ones. That's my first thought - I missed the beginning.

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----

That sierra character in Pink was hilarious! lol

[Hopefulsuicide]

So how did the first episode go down? I thought it was brilliant. Especially the Dr. Saunders stuff (love that scene where she's coming on to Topher).

Eliza did really well flipping between personalities so quickly, and still managing to make them immediately recognisable.

Loved that little bit at the end with Victor and Sierra holding hands :D they are just the sweetest ship ever!

Anyway, I gave it a 9 :)

[CallMeClark]

I liked the episode, however, I was so confused with the Topher/Dr. Saunders stuff... maybe I need to re-watch the season finale. It just seemed really out of place. And she was confusing the hell out of me. Anyone wanna explain what was going on with her?

Eliza did an amazing job.

Hate DeWitt's haircut. :lol:

Also, what was going on with Alexis Denisof's character? He is a senator interested in medical research?

...I know I need to play closer attention. I was so studying when I watched it.

[Hopefulsuicide]

Basically, Dr Saunders is obsessed with figuring out why Topher imprinted her to hate him. The sexy scene was Dr Saunders experiment to see if the real reason why he made he have all that passionate hatred was because it would lead to passionate sex (yes, humans are pretty screwed up nowadays, let alone made up humans).

As it turns out, the fact she hates him isn't because he made her. It's because he gave her the character traits that would make her capable of fighting for what she believes in. As he said, if he programmed her to agree with him all the time, then they wouldn't be as efficient a work team.

When he told her it was her choice to hate him, it kind of proved that even a fake person cannot be totally predicted. They are still a person, no matter how unnatural.

Unlike Echo, who simply wants to put Caroline back in her body because she completely accepts that it is not hers to keep and she is not a real person, Dr Saunders actually wants to keep existing. She is afraid to die, even though she shudn't really exist. Even fake humans have a survival instinct.

As for Alexis' character, the medical research he was interested in was the Rossom corporation... that's the company that runs the Dollhouse. So someone has tipped him off about the Dollhouse (probably the same person who was tipping off Paul, but had to give up on him cause the Dollhouse has swallowed him now).

And yeah, the new haircut is weird :lol:

[ReevesSuperman]

8. The Dr. Saunders' storyline was the best part of the show mainly for Amy being all sexy. Her character is very interesting unfortuantly, she is only going to be on for two more episodes this season due to her new ABC show. Echo and Paul being teammates is a good idea. It will lead to choice somewhere this season for both of them. I think one will eventually betraye the other and lead the other running from the Dollhouse. I expect Alpha to be the one feeding the Senator informationor Dr. Saunders which would be aweosme to see Fred and Wesley together again. This episode highlights the problem with the show which is Echo's character is fairly weak while the rest of the characters are awesome. That always been the trait of a Joss Whedon show where the main character is just ok while the rest of the cast has to carry the show. I just think this series needs to have Echo be a stronger character to help carry it through a few seasons. Buffy and Angel were both able to carry seasons by themselves while Firefly didn't get much of a chance, but Mal was written so differently from episode to episode that Firefly was doomed to maybe another seaons before the early pull. I think Dollhouse needs to focus more on Echo and Paul while moving the rest of the characters to the background for at least this season.
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[nicmar]

This is the show that I was waiting for almost all of last year. First special mention of Amy Acker who just knocked it out of the park in every sceen she was in. I know she is signed for three shows this year for sure but I really hope the can find a way to use her more.

The rest of the show was also very good it stated out as your standard engagement of the week type set up evolved nicely. We got confirmation that Echo can infact remember and if need be acesses her other personalities. so that was cool to see also Topher got to be a little more human which helps as well seeing as for most of last year he really was just a " sociopath in a sweater vest".

The other charcters got a little more light this week although I found Boyd saying that this weeks engagement was " really sick" was odd seeing as the Dollhouse is still a brothel more or less. The seanators introduction was also very intresting I could see him being one of thoes road to hell type villians pressing to get the Dollhouse tech out of the private sector and then having it used by the military to bring about what we saw last year. Even the Victor and Seiera sceens were nice place holders to see that they still have an effection for one another.

I only real issue I had wasn't even with this weeks show but next week seems like more of your standard one off show Dollhouse really has to hook it's auidence if it want to see a full 22 pick up let alone a season 3.

update well the ratings are in and they suck. Dollhouse Tied Smallville for the lowest rated show of the night which means it actually did worse that Smallville becasue Fox is in more homes than CW so it got a smaller percentage of the availible auidence I hope Joss can start moving the show towards a conclusion, because this will not even get a back end pick up

[KSiteTV]

I've merged the two threads. Please have only one Dollhouse thread per episode. Loved It/Hated It threads only go with shows with full forums. Thanks!

[A Flawed Fashion]

It was good, but nothing spectacular.
Epitaph One was amazing and I really hoped they could keep that kind of momentum, but this episode built up really slowly. Not bad, just not great either.

Ratings look not good - too bad it couldn't go out with a bang.

[actaeon]

Brilliant, absolutely brilliant. That scene with Topher and Dr.Saunders was like something from a Beckett play... very Existential. Much dark humor. This show cuts right into issues like the nature of identity, what makes a person a person. Free will. The purpose of being. How a person can live, knowing what they know.

Topher-- a comic character!-- is staring into the abyss. This stuff is Shakespearean!

I don't know if something this good can survive in a mass medium like television. It's too good. It's too brainy. It doesn't have a simplistic, cut-and-dried morality. It doesn't offer answers, just intriguing and unsettling questions.

[InactiveUserID]

Exciting to watch not only because it was an exciting episdoe, but because of the surprise jump in the maturity of the show.

Topher was believable for maybe the first time. The imprint gimmicks were new. The revelations were like slaps to the face. Nice. The dialogue was great, like he'd buffed and shined it all summer. I didn't need to suspend my disbelief as much, since the show was smoothed out to where it was easier to believe. The opening even explained the show better visually. Impressed.

Also, Winifred Burkle ep!

[ginnyfan]

8. The Dr. Saunders' storyline was the best part of the show mainly for Amy being all sexy. Her character is very interesting unfortuantly, she is only going to be on for two more episodes this season due to her new ABC show.

What?! *cries*

Well I gave this episode an 8. It was very good. I enjoyed seeing Apollo from BSG and Wesley from Angel. I agree that Dr. Saunders' storyline was wonderful, a definite highlight of the episode. I enjoyed what her behavior brought out of Topher's character also. When he said, "I know what I know" it reminded me of "Epitaph One." *shivers*

I don't like Paul Ballard. I think maybe November was my favorite thing about that guy. He's the main reason this episode gets an eight IMO. I don't know how I feel about DeWitt's haircut.

I'm excited to see the Senator take on the Dollhouse. I'm confused about Echo. What does she remember? What does she not remember? Does that chair work on her? I thought... it didn't. I'm confused.

[A Flawed Fashion]

I don't like Paul Ballard. I think maybe November was my favorite thing about that guy. He's the main reason this episode gets an eight IMO.


Neither do I and I think that is seriously what is pulling this episode down for me.
I was really hoping that Echo/Caroline wouldn't end up relying on him too much and I really don't want to see them end up together.

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----

I absolutely love Topher, Adelle, and Dr. Saunders pretty much all the time.

[actaeon]

I've always liked Topher. I'd hazard a guess that Topher is Joss Whedon, he's his autobiographical character. I love that Topher sleeps behind the computer racks, basically on the floor. He's such an unheroic character. And his line about Fozzie Bear? Definitely best line of the episode!

Last season, Topher's "date" with Sierra was so touching, so pathetic...

[Welling_is_pretty]

Hmmm. This episode was ok but not great, IMO. I gave it a 5.

The new credits...seem far more Eliza centric. The old ones were more "Dollhouse", to me.

I have always wondered where Topher slept! I figured the full time Dollhouse employees all had rooms in the house somewhere. That he sleeps in that little room? So Topher!

Adelle's new haircut--I think it's a little too short but it's cute I can understand why she cut it.
Loved her touching Victor's face when she saw him (and that she went ahead and got him fixed and all--Ah, Miss Lonelyhearts!).

Was it me or did Sierra look very "Jackie O." in that pink outfit?

The Jonas Bros. as clients? LOL

Ballard as a client? How can he work for the Dollhouse and be a client?

OK, so it's been a while since I've seen the season 1 eps (haven't gotten the DVD yet). But I don't remember Echo and Whiskey interacting before she was imprinted with Dr. Saunders. Was she?

How weird was it to hear Alexis with an American accent?!

The stuff with Ballard at the plane was excellent. Him working out his anger over Echo ON Echo? Oh Joss!

The Victor and Sierra scene at the end *draws sparkly pink hearts around it*. I especially loved how Sierra touched his face like Adelle did.

And Echo remembers everything? Ballard as her handler was something I figured would be coming as soon as Ballard joined the Dollhouse.

But hte big thing was Topher. I think Joss wanted to show that Topher isn't the big creep that fans seem to think he is (so many Dollhouse fans I run into say "Topher is a jerk", "I hate Topher, he's so creepy", etc. I think Joss meant for him to be ambigious but he's also supposed to be the comic relief, in a way, so having fans hate him is not good cause then they won't laugh!). And the scenes with Whiskey really seemed to cement that.

Topher and his "man reaction" to her (and year the line about Fozzie Bear!) were very nice. Fran did a great job.

In conclusion, this was a good episode but not great like I know the show can be.

[ginnyfan]

Neither do I and I think that is seriously what is pulling this episode down for me.
I was really hoping that Echo/Caroline wouldn't end up relying on him too much and I really don't want to see them end up together.


I thought I would end up wanting Echo to be with Alpha but now that I know what a monster he is... I dunno. I never liked Paul/Echo but I'm liking it less and less as the show goes on.


I've always liked Topher. I'd hazard a guess that Topher is Joss Whedon, he's his autobiographical character. I love that Topher sleeps behind the computer racks, basically on the floor. He's such an unheroic character. And his line about Fozzie Bear? Definitely best line of the episode!

Last season, Topher's "date" with Sierra was so touching, so pathetic...

I disliked Topher at first... probably for the same reasons that Dr. Saunders disliked him. He was so... casual about expirimenting on humans. But there is something so fragile and vulnerable and yeah... pathetic about him. I don't think I've ever seen a mad scientist like him. LOL! That's interesting that you think he's maybe a Joss Whedon character. Does Joss always have a character that's secretly like him in his shows?

Topher's birthday date with Sierra was one of my favorite things last season. Really helped me see a more complete picture of Topher's character.

And in this episode... "Vows" he was so kind to Dr. Saunders in the face of her hatred and hostility.


Hmmm. This episode was ok but not great, IMO. I gave it a 5.

The new credits...seem far more Eliza centric. The old ones were more "Dollhouse", to me.

LOL! The new credits remind me of "Alias."


Ballard as a client? How can he work for the Dollhouse and be a client?

I didn't like that. It seemed like he was using Echo for his own agenda. Langston would never have done that to her. Then again, maybe it's similar to using Echo to find the mole... last season.


How weird was it to hear Alexis with an American accent?!

VERY WEIRD. :lol:

I hated Topher... and I laughed... but as the show reveals more and more about his character... I hate him less.

[Welling_is_pretty]

That's interesting that you think he's maybe a Joss Whedon character. Does Joss always have a character that's secretly like him in his shows?[/quoe]
I don't know about always but he did mention that on Buffy he felt the closest representation to him was Xander.

[quote]LOL! The new credits remind me of "Alias."
Never saw Alias but cool to know.


I didn't like that. It seemed like he was using Echo for his own agenda. Langston would never have done that to her. Then again, maybe it's similar to using Echo to find the mole... last season.
Yeah, it fit because he'd used her before, in a way. And then his anger later made sense too.

[actaeon]

I disliked Topher at first... probably for the same reasons that Dr. Saunders disliked him. He was so... casual about expirimenting on humans.

I get that. He thinks of people as things, as progammable machines. Small wonder he thinks that way, really, given what he does for a living. It's not loveable, but what it is is Cartesian philosophy taken to the extreme. There are two polar opposite ways of looking at the world, spiritual/mechanistic. Topher is a scientist, a rationalist, and like Descartes, sees the universe and everything in it as explicable through purely mechanical models.

In one ep. last season, somebody mentioned the "soul" in Topher's presence. Topher scoffed. He does not believe humans have a spiritual component. The "mind" is nothing more than the brain, and the brain is nothing more than an extremely sophisticated electro-chemical computer.

This, I think, is what lies at the heart of Joss' Dollhouse: the debate going all the way back to the early days of the scientific revolution, the philosophical debate between the spiritualists and the mechanists. In the speculative world of Dollhouse, the big question is, what makes an individual an individual? If you could get inside the brain and change the program, switch it with someone else's, wouldn't that person be the new person? Already, we can take pharmaceuticals that change our mood. Brain damage can result in radical shifts in personality. All this argues in favor of a purely mechanistic explantion of what a person is. Who a person is.

It may not be nice to think a human being is a purely mechanistic thing. But it may be true. And that I think is what Topher represents. In "Vows", the wonderful thing is... even he is horrified by the implications!

[nicmar]

It seems to me like with the future apocalypse we saw the statement that the show make is just because we can do somthing does not mean we should do somthing.

[kernel_thai]

I gave it a six. I liked a lot of things. I liked the new softer tone, much less mechanical than last year. I loved Amy Acker tho if it was an attempt to redeem Topher its going to fail. What Topher does is just plain wrong and giving him a fuzzy side isnt going to change that. Jamie Bamber made a nice villian. And yes it was interesting seeing both Bamber and Alexis Denisof using their real accents instead of their more familiar fake ones.

As for the main story line, I thought it was really weak. No wonder Ballard couldnt catch Bamber's character! That he came up with a sting based on Bamber marrying Echo is ludicrous. He probably could get Echo in his bed, might be able to get her in a relationship but to have ur plan hinge on someone marrying ur operative? And what was the time frame. How long did it take to get Echo married to this guy? Years??? And how does Ballard catch his uncatchable foe? The criminal mastermind tosses his wife/FBI spy along the incriminating briefcase of bombs into the car and drive to the private airfield. So Paul bumbles in, shifts Echo into ninja mode and we live happily ever after.

Somebody asked about Echo and Whiskey. Whiskey was number one girl when Echo arrived in the Dollhouse. Alpha wanted Echo to be number one so he scarred Whiskey. So Echo and Whiskey did know each other for a little while. This was portrayed in flashback scenes in ep 11 or 12 ...prolly 12.

[nicmar]

I have to say while I did like the episode that Ballard must be the worst FBI agent in history. It seems like ha has never caught anyone. Hell the could have just fired him for general incompetence before the Dollhouse ever came in to play

[Xanderman]

Didn't like it. 2/10

(It gets 2 points for that Dr. Saunders/Topher scene. That was great. The rest--meh.)

I wish they'd get new writers. Fire Joss Whedon and his parade of family and personal friends working for the show--that would be good for starters. lol But...that would probably mean losing every single person involved with the series... Oops. :lol: Seriously, I hate the Whedon style of writing for this particular series. Stick to vampires and space cowboys, Joss. It's what you know.

Not a great start to the season for me. I have to admit though that having knowledge of the ultimate fate of the story, thanks to the godawful Epitaph One which I recently saw, has tainted my enjoyment for the show overall (more so than Joss and his writing team of faithful Joss-nerds already did last season). Especially if it remains the intended "final destination" for the story.

[darkphoenix21]

I was confused by th episode. I didn't know what was going on with Ballard or Echo. Was she an imprint that thought she was his partner or was she malfunctioning or both? Is Omega or not? I couldn't tell for the most part...until the end of the episode.

I did like the whole Boyd and Dr. Saunders thing. They make for a strange couple. She knows she's just a doll with the imprint of a dead doctor. He knows it, but is strangely attracted to her.

I give it a 6, it seemed they took a step back with this episode. It was like watching one of the first 5 episodes. I pray it gets better. It has so much potiential.

[FlashInSV]

I have absolutely no idea what went on in this episode. I saw no or little point. I was very disappointed, to be honest and that's the first time it happens to me with Joss Whedon. I'm waiting for the next one, hoping it'll be better.

[CallMeClark]

Basically, Dr Saunders is obsessed with figuring out why Topher imprinted her to hate him. The sexy scene was Dr Saunders experiment to see if the real reason why he made he have all that passionate hatred was because it would lead to passionate sex (yes, humans are pretty screwed up nowadays, let alone made up humans).

As it turns out, the fact she hates him isn't because he made her. It's because he gave her the character traits that would make her capable of fighting for what she believes in. As he said, if he programmed her to agree with him all the time, then they wouldn't be as efficient a work team.

When he told her it was her choice to hate him, it kind of proved that even a fake person cannot be totally predicted. They are still a person, no matter how unnatural.

Unlike Echo, who simply wants to put Caroline back in her body because she completely accepts that it is not hers to keep and she is not a real person, Dr Saunders actually wants to keep existing. She is afraid to die, even though she shudn't really exist. Even fake humans have a survival instinct.

As for Alexis' character, the medical research he was interested in was the Rossom corporation... that's the company that runs the Dollhouse. So someone has tipped him off about the Dollhouse (probably the same person who was tipping off Paul, but had to give up on him cause the Dollhouse has swallowed him now).

And yeah, the new haircut is weird :lol:

THANK YOU so much for that! :)

[InactiveUserID]

I don't mind Topher being unlikable or sociopathic or whatever the term is. I just haven't been buying his act as an ambiguous guy. I don't think a multi-billion dollar industry would have him at the helm running the show. Sure, you can say "They would if he was the only techie capable of doing the imprints." But I think if there were this many problems with the actives, the whole dollhouse industry would never have gotten up and running to begin with. All of these supposed fat cat clients they have? Those people haven't gotten rich by investing in crap. Why would they start now? I mean Topher is the kind of guy who gets fired from Radio Shack, let alone a job that expects high pressure results. By now a shady organization like the dollhouse would have used the chair on him to steal his mind and his artistry, and then imprint those skills into someone much more reliable. That's been my gripe. Big money wouldn't trust to bigtime chaos like him. But there is a history of real-world mad scientists, obviously, so if he can start walking the path in a more believable way, as in this episode, I'd be okay with him. He seemed to fit with the environment more in Vows, and not just be somebody you'd see outside Starbucks.

----- Added 19 Minutes later -----


I have absolutely no idea what went on in this episode. I saw no or little point. I was very disappointed, to be honest and that's the first time it happens to me with Joss Whedon. I'm waiting for the next one, hoping it'll be better.

okay, since this was a rare episode written and I believe directed by Whedon, you should probably stop watching now, since the next few eps won't have the kind of fundamental changes in character relationships like you saw in this one, and the other writers probably won't sink as far into the dollhouse quirk as this ep did.

I still like Ballard, and his choice of a new partner. That was an awesome reveal. The dolls are showing progress with their memory. New wrinkles are popping up that will make the show interesting this year. It was surprisingly strong. Not a letdown. This ep was like a big uptick in the stock value of the show, and people missed it! Now if you're looking to play the "letdown" card, the next episode looks to be an excellent opportunity for that. Some kind of pregnancy imprint? Good luck with that one! I'll keep this week's show, thank you very much.

[jayf]

Love Joss Whedon -- Love seeing BSG alumni - but overall a very disappointing premiere. The Ballard - Echo relationship is stale. I much preferred Echo's relationship with her old handler Langton. If this is any indication of where the show is going it's going to be a short run.

[Hopefulsuicide]

I wish they'd get new writers. Fire Joss Whedon and his parade of family and personal friends working for the show--that would be good for starters. lol But...that would probably mean losing every single person involved with the series... Oops. :lol: Seriously, I hate the Whedon style of writing for this particular series. Stick to vampires and space cowboys, Joss. It's what you know.

Not a great start to the season for me. I have to admit though that having knowledge of the ultimate fate of the story, thanks to the godawful Epitaph One which I recently saw, has tainted my enjoyment for the show overall (more so than Joss and his writing team of faithful Joss-nerds already did last season). Especially if it remains the intended "final destination" for the story.

I can't understand why you are even watching a Joss Whedon show if you don't like Joss Whedon and the teams style of writing. And I wish you'd stop using it as a reason to slag the show off.

It's just a bit odd... like saying 'I gave it a 2, because it was too Joss Whedony'... I mean what the hell is that?

The way they write isn't unintelligent or some kind of stupid mistake due to laziness like some shows... it's simply a style that you dislike... like I don't like the taste of olives... but I don't eat olives every week and then complain that they taste too much like olives!

I LOVE the taste of Joss Whedon :lol: And can't wait for another bite :D

[ginnyfan]

I get that. He thinks of people as things, as progammable machines. Small wonder he thinks that way, really, given what he does for a living. It's not loveable, but what it is is Cartesian philosophy taken to the extreme. There are two polar opposite ways of looking at the world, spiritual/mechanistic. Topher is a scientist, a rationalist, and like Descartes, sees the universe and everything in it as explicable through purely mechanical models.

In one ep. last season, somebody mentioned the "soul" in Topher's presence. Topher scoffed. He does not believe humans have a spiritual component. The "mind" is nothing more than the brain, and the brain is nothing more than an extremely sophisticated electro-chemical computer.

This, I think, is what lies at the heart of Joss' Dollhouse: the debate going all the way back to the early days of the scientific revolution, the philosophical debate between the spiritualists and the mechanists. In the speculative world of Dollhouse, the big question is, what makes an individual an individual? If you could get inside the brain and change the program, switch it with someone else's, wouldn't that person be the new person? Already, we can take pharmaceuticals that change our mood. Brain damage can result in radical shifts in personality. All this argues in favor of a purely mechanistic explantion of what a person is. Who a person is.

It may not be nice to think a human being is a purely mechanistic thing. But it may be true. And that I think is what Topher represents. In "Vows", the wonderful thing is... even he is horrified by the implications!

Wow! Great post. I definitely come down on the spiritual side but... this is so interesting.


It seems to me like with the future apocalypse we saw the statement that the show make is just because we can do somthing does not mean we should do somthing.

Yeah.


I don't mind Topher being unlikable or sociopathic or whatever the term is. I just haven't been buying his act as an ambiguous guy. I don't think a multi-billion dollar industry would have him at the helm running the show. Sure, you can say "They would if he was the only techie capable of doing the imprints." But I think if there were this many problems with the actives, the whole dollhouse industry would never have gotten up and running to begin with. All of these supposed fat cat clients they have? Those people haven't gotten rich by investing in crap. Why would they start now?

I think... that unaired episode... Epitaph One... showed that the real endgame of the REAL fat cats in charge is immortality. I think that's worth the crazy quirkiness of Topher to them and also... they probably expected the results to be spotty when they went in to a business that required illegally expirimenting on the human brain. What they've achieved with Topher so far is pretty amazing, even if there have been casualties. It seems that they are powerful enough to pay off the right people and avoid notice when people die etc.


As for the main story line, I thought it was really weak. No wonder Ballard couldnt catch Bamber's character! That he came up with a sting based on Bamber marrying Echo is ludicrous. He probably could get Echo in his bed, might be able to get her in a relationship but to have ur plan hinge on someone marrying ur operative? And what was the time frame. How long did it take to get Echo married to this guy? Years??? And how does Ballard catch his uncatchable foe? The criminal mastermind tosses his wife/FBI spy along the incriminating briefcase of bombs into the car and drive to the private airfield. So Paul bumbles in, shifts Echo into ninja mode and we live happily ever after.

LOL! That was horrible. I don't know what about that scenario made DeWitt think Ballard should be Echo's handler.

[Xanderman]

I can't understand why you are even watching a Joss Whedon show if you don't like Joss Whedon and the teams style of writing. And I wish you'd stop using it as a reason to slag the show off.

It's just a bit odd... like saying 'I gave it a 2, because it was too Joss Whedony'... I mean what the hell is that?"Too Whedony" is a valid criticism I think. To me it's when they as writers go overboard trying too hard to prove to the world that they're geniuses. I liked and watched Firefly, BTVS, Angel, etc, as you know. However as we talked about last year, I don't think the Veronica Mars/Chloe Sullivan-esque incessantly witty/clever dialogue style works as well here for some reason (possibly because it's a bit more "real world"; no vamps/monsters/space cowboys etc). It can get painful to watch, almost as painful as VM and SV's Chloe at their respective worsts. Too bad we can't have Heroes or Fringe or the dearly departed TSCC writers running this thing. With more down to earth, realistic dialogue. Not endlessly cheeky/"oh aren't we so clever" writing that makes me want to punch someone (mainly the characters, but also Joss Whedon) in the face.:cool: :lol:

I'll keep watching though hoping for a miracle, in which Whedon and his merry band of self-worshipping writers somehow get over themselves. Some eps last year were a bit more toned down in this regard than others, and THESE were the episodes that didn't make me want to vomit in my own mouth.:) heh j/k


The Ballard - Echo relationship is stale. I much preferred Echo's relationship with her old handler Langton.Me too. But hopefully they'll do something interesting with the direction they've decided to go.

[Vergon6]

I've always liked Topher. I'd hazard a guess that Topher is Joss Whedon, he's his autobiographical character. I love that Topher sleeps behind the computer racks, basically on the floor. He's such an unheroic character. And his line about Fozzie Bear? Definitely best line of the episode!

Last season, Topher's "date" with Sierra was so touching, so pathetic...
Haha. I don't know enough about Joss to say, but Topher is becoming more interesting and likeable. But you are right, he is very unheroic.

----- Added 4 Minutes later -----

I gave it an 8. It wasn't perfect but it was a promising start to the season. Personally, I think Amy Acker should be a series regular but that doesn't look like it's going to happen. I thought it was interesting how they had Ballard as a client and now it looks like now he is Echo's new handler by the end of the episode? Right? Ballard seems to be slightly out of place, he hasn't found his feet in this new environment. Hopefully he will evolve as the season goes on.

[nicmar]

Amy has another show she signed with so it's not as though they don't want her. Dollhouse has done a fair job of humanizing Topher I'm not saying I like him just that he still gives me the creeps but he is more tolerable, and I would like to see how he evolves.

Ballard never seemed to find his feet last year execpt in a few shows, as it was noted above he never seemed like the most compatent agent, We knd of knew that he was going to be her handler and thats fine but since the Dollhouse was in the favor granting moodw what made the arms dealer last week the one guy that Ballard needed to catch above all others? He obviously will be a major part of the shows future though based on the ratings that future might not be that long, so he needs to find out who he is on the show. Is he the hero the moral center the show lacks, is he an employee of the dollhouse who is just as compromised as the rest?

[Vergon6]

Amy has another show she signed with so it's not as though they don't want her. Dollhouse has done a fair job of humanizing Topher I'm not saying I like him just that he still gives me the creeps but he is more tolerable, and I would like to see how he evolves.

Ballard never seemed to find his feet last year execpt in a few shows, as it was noted above he never seemed like the most compatent agent, We knd of knew that he was going to be her handler and thats fine but since the Dollhouse was in the favor granting moodw what made the arms dealer last week the one guy that Ballard needed to catch above all others? He obviously will be a major part of the shows future though based on the ratings that future might not be that long, so he needs to find out who he is on the show. Is he the hero the moral center the show lacks, is he an employee of the dollhouse who is just as compromised as the rest?
Oh yeah I know what you mean about Ballard and Topher. As for Amy, I understand that she has another show. If her show doesn't happen to work out and Dollhouse survives, it would be great if they added her a series regular later.

[Hopefulsuicide]

I'll keep watching though hoping for a miracle, in which Whedon and his merry band of self-worshipping writers somehow get over themselves. Some eps last year were a bit more toned down in this regard than others, and THESE were the episodes that didn't make me want to vomit in my own mouth.:) heh j/k


Well all I can say to that is WHATEVER! :p

I don't think the whedoness shud be taken out myself. It's like the secret ingredient that makes it more than just good... it's that something extra that all those other shows don't have. If you honestly think the people who write Heroes would do a better job at writing Dollhouse, then I really can't reason with you :lol: They are the most incapable writers on television... the storylines don't even add up... sometimes they even just give up on them!

There is nothing arrogant about Whedon whatsoever, and his team create something unique... it's got a signature, it's auteur style. Whether or not you like that style or not is up to you :)

[Xanderman]

If you honestly think the people who write Heroes would do a better job at writing Dollhouse, then I really can't reason with you :lol: They are the most incapable writers on television... the storylines don't even add up... sometimes they even just give up on them!Lol I hear you, mainly I'm referring to the dialog style, which is more realistic sounding and very rarely makes me want to retch. lol They're not trying to be cheeky every second of every episode.