Clark Kent, Dead or Alive? (Merged) [Archive] - Page 2

xrayvision

05-16-2009, 11:10 PM

I had a theory based on some of what i have read this one could actually have happened

here it is

1) Clark when sending doomsday to the hole in the ground came in contact with black K (it was still in the plant)

2) the split was unclean and the resulting Kal-EL that split was left with a smalll minute part of Clarks feelings toward people resulting in him approaching Chloe and letting her hug him (the pure Kal-EL would probably have let it happen but brushed it off as being a wasted human emotion and not hugged back) and telling her his intentions which the Pure Kal-EL would not have cared to do.

3) the remaining half of Clark was was so underpowered he died when the explotion hit leaving his other half which was mostly the Kal-El personality to take over his life

this theory works in my eys for the simple fact that we have never seen a full Clark/Kal-El split. In Crusaide he was for most of the episode just reprogramed not split it was not until martha threw himt he black K that he began to split from Kal-EL. However he ended the split before it was finished resulting in us not know how Black K would split them exactly is it possible that a split could happen that left a small imprint of the other. Meaning is is possible we could get a Kal-EL with a slight bit of Clarks personality and a Clark with a slight bit of Kal-Els?

In the Movies we see him split and the other half is evil why? This is due to Black and Red K being mixed. The black K cause a split and the red K caused the split version to act irrationaly and with hate and pretty much be pure evil.

I guess anything can happen, but this may be a bit complicated. I don't know. If we ever see a full split, I would like to see a pure Kryptonian side like Kal-El was and a Clark Kent side, with both having powers. I don't want them having Clark as human like they did with Davis because neither Clark nor Davis are human. The split should have both sides having powers because that is Clark's biology whether he values human morals or Kryptonian morals.

I wouldn't mind an unclean split as long as we get a clean split sometime. This is what I made my season 7 fanfics about if you recall with my Clark vs. Kal-El war. I want to get back to finishing it up, but after this episode, I have been so demoralized that I probably will just post spoilers of what would have happened instead of finishing them.

Anyway, this issue of Clark facing & overcoming his Kryptonian side should have been dealt with before he ever fought Doomsday. Once again I was right. I made this the focus of my season 7. In my season 7, Lex would be around still & would have witnessed the Kryptonian side of Clark and determined him to be Naman & a threat, just like he did in my episode Krypton. It would have been Clark's training. It's possible these idiot writers finally understood what I've been saying since season 5 ended, when I first suggested such a war. But of course it would be too little too late. If they do decide to have Clark vs. Kal-El in a season where Clark faces off his Kryptonian side, it would have been so much better with Lex around, also interacting with Kal-El like I have done & am doing in my fanfics. What a shame.

ryan-el

05-16-2009, 11:16 PM

xrayvision...

you are clearly over thinking this. way over.

i need not explain why. read your post again and you should see the extremes.

Its a TV show that has consistently shown us that continuity is an afterthought, and that lining up with comic legend is NOT what they want. To base a theory on either of these two things with such emotion and zeal as your novel written above says to me that its just a bit "overboard".

Again let me say...TV SHOW!

Serynarpc

05-16-2009, 11:16 PM

Wow, I didn't think he was dead. I just assumed it was a special fade out effect.

Creepy thought- I thought that Oliver saw Clark just before he left. Is that why Oliver is crying- he heard that Clark died? But they'd tell Chloe.

I had the odd thought that no one interacted with Oliver either, so technically he could be dead, too, if we go this route.

Now I'm hoping Chloe heads to the fortress to demand Jor -El get off his Spectral butt.

xrayvision

05-16-2009, 11:27 PM

I don't think Oliver's dead. I do think Clark is dead because Rokk knew everything Clark would do and told him outright that Clark would die. Rokk knew Clark's plan & how it involved the geothermal hole because it's part of his history.

If there's any continuity left in this show, the dumb writers will realize that Doomsday was already blown up in Eternal & didn't die in that explosion. And no hole is going to keep Doomsday trapped, so if Clark got out, so would DD. That's why I think Clark is either dead with DD down in the hole or is still fighting him down there, meaning that the person we saw was the Eradicator. This is the explanation using logic.

But with this show logic goes out the door. So for all we know Clark has vanishing powers or was a hallucination of Chloe's. She was a wreck and her mind could have easily been playing tricks on her.

SnowBird

05-16-2009, 11:42 PM

Serynarpc

05-16-2009, 11:45 PM

So that means that he's just 'trapped' right? As in we'll hear 'Oh damn, someone dug his way up again. I mean, he dug his way up the last time we tied to kill him, I just thought this time would stick.

Too bad I didn't LEARN HOW TO FLY so I could plant him in the moon. He likes talking about the moon and constellations, it would be fitting...'

CaL-eL

05-16-2009, 11:59 PM

I think the battle with Doomsday that Rokk knew about changed from him coming back to tell Clark about it. I think Clarks original plan was to split Davis / Doomsday and fight Doomsday, which would've resulted in Clark's death. When Rokk told him that "nothing on this Earth" could destroy Doomsday, Clark's plan changed to include the Geothermal site. For this reason, I don't believe that Clark is necessarily dead. I can see everyone's points either way, but my instincts tell me he's just in mourning and he's temporarily lost faith in humanity. I think he'll find his way back and become the Superman we all know he'll be.

xrayvision

05-17-2009, 12:22 AM

Doomsday was trapped underground before he was unearthed which resulted in the Superman and Doomsday fight.

He wasn't trapped. He was killed by the Radiant on Calaton & shot off into space. He eventually crashed landed on Earth & ended up underground & woke up soon afterwards. From there he surfaced & progressed his way to Metropolis. It did not take him long at all to surface from underground after he crash landed. Even after Doomsday was vaporized into skeletal remains later on by Imperiex, it only took him a few months to resurrect his body.

So a hole like that never held DD for long. He's too powerful.

----- Added 8 Minutes later -----

So that means that he's just 'trapped' right? As in we'll hear 'Oh damn, someone dug his way up again. I mean, he dug his way up the last time we tied to kill him, I just thought this time would stick.

Too bad I didn't LEARN HOW TO FLY so I could plant him in the moon. He likes talking about the moon and constellations, it would be fitting...'

The Moon wouldn't do anything either. In the comics, extreme measures were taken. In one case, his body was placed to be infinitely teleported between 4 teleportation pods, each disintegrating & re-integrating no more than 25% of his matter at a given time. In another instance, Superman used the Waverider's technology to take him to the End of Time, where Doomsday could never escape by himself. The Cyborg Superman (Hank Henshaw), who appeared after Superman & Doomsday's first fight, strapped DD to an asteroid & threw him on a trajectory that would never intersect with anything & planted a piece of himself on DD so he could track him when he woke up (which he did in a matter of days after Superman killed him).

Even though Doomsday was never placed in it in the comics, the Phantom Zone would have been a great place to put DD, but Chloe ruined Clark's 1 try at doing it.

Given the fact that there is a Legion ring, the best bet is for Clark to have another round with Doomsday (if they're still not fighting underground) and then use the ring to take him to the End of Time once DD & Clark resurface.

Blue screen of death

05-17-2009, 04:12 AM

I honestly don't know. All I know is that something happened to Clark and they didn't show it yet. Here are the possbilities:

1. Clark took Doomsday underground & was killed by him and Doomsday will imminently resurface in the S9 premiere. The being that we saw as Clark was either his spirit or the Eradicator.

2. Clark took Doomsday underground & they killed each other down there & both will fight again in the S9 premiere when someone gets his body out, where Doomsday will follow. The being that we saw as Clark was either his spirit or the Eradicator.

3. Clark took Doomsday underground & the 2 are still fighting down there. The being that we saw as Clark was the Eradicator. Clark & Doomsday will resurface in the S9 premiere & continue their fight above ground.

4. Clark somehow encountered black-k while he was down in the hole & split off. His Clark Kent side continued to fight Doomsday & died in battle. The being we saw was either Clark's spirit or a lower energy form of the Clark Kent side after he was killed (since he chances are he can't be a ghost, or else that would mean both his CK & Kal-El sides have their own spirits/ghosts & I doubt Clark has 2 souls).

The only problem i see with both of them still fighting is the imagery points otherwise. A great fire burns for hours and then is put out. that screams imagery for a long drawn out battle that was too expensive to show with one or more dying. I would think the eradicator theory is the best choice. think back to when lex used the orb on clark last cliffhanger. CK woke up someplace and didn't know who he was. Guessing the eradicator did something to him then as it scanned him/collapsed the fortress or something. In a way it "prepared him" or was trying to determine if it was the "perfect kryptonian".

Exedore

05-17-2009, 04:13 AM

In the comics, extreme measures were taken. In one case, his body was placed to be infinitely teleported between 4 teleportation pods, each disintegrating & re-integrating no more than 25% of his matter at a given time.

You know, if the Legion rings weren't involved I think using this idea would have been a better way to set up Doomsday's comic book entry: set up the teleportation pods underground. The pods could come from FOS technology, LuthorCorp experiments, Hamilton's inventions...who cares. Then, years later something goes wrong either by accident or by deliberate sabotage (Lex?) and the pods stop working and Doomsday is fully integrated. Then he starts punching the walls of the pod (his first "appearance" in the comics was simply his hand punching the wall), breaking them open. Finally he would claw his way out and attack Metropolis, eventually killing Superman. There you go, mythos lined up without doing anything stupid.

Davis Bloome

05-17-2009, 04:29 AM

Xray what do you think of my theory located here
http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4856814&postcount=219

----- Added 14 Minutes later -----

You make a good point with the exception that weather he had good intentions or not he was still slowly slipping into maddness from trying to contain the beast so i do not think his turning phyco was all the sudden present but more he was close and the split gave him that last shove into the role of the Smallville resident Phyco for the 5 minutes he lived
No he slipped into madness and turned into a psycho because of bad writing, even the actors agreed to that. SW expressed himself he was shocked by the script and argued against what they were doing to his character. Aaron Ashmore and him agreed on this, cause SW also said it was wrong what they did to Jimmy's character.

The problem is, Davis was always a very calm rational man, before facing the Beast. You take the beast away, you take the stress away. All his other murders were never based on selfish reasons and there was always some influence from the Beast, whether it was directly or not. And suddenly he gets psycho because of jealousy, because of hate what Chloe had down. Have you ever seen him act like this in the slightest bit when he was himself? Did he ever raise his voice in a moment of anger, or better yet, when did he ever get really angry while being himself.

SnowBird

05-17-2009, 09:10 AM

He wasn't trapped. He was killed by the Radiant on Calaton & shot off into space. He eventually crashed landed on Earth & ended up underground & woke up soon afterwards. From there he surfaced & progressed his way to Metropolis. It did not take him long at all to surface from underground after he crash landed. Even after Doomsday was vaporized into skeletal remains later on by Imperiex, it only took him a few months to resurrect his body.

So a hole like that never held DD for long. He's too powerful.

I guess we aren't on the same page. I was talking about the Superman Doomsday animated movie where Doomsday was trapped underground and was dug up. I don't know the different versions of the DD story. I will say that I think it's cool how knowing the posters are on K-Site about the comics and I'm even a little jealous because I don't know very much about it. The last Superman comic book I bought cost 10 cents and I can't remember what it was about it was so long ago. I think Smallville comes up with their own version of Clark Kent before Superman and who knows what we will find in S9 but I'm looking forward to finding out.

----- Added 12 Minutes later -----

The problem is, Davis was always a very calm rational man, before facing the Beast. You take the beast away, you take the stress away. All his other murders were never based on selfish reasons and there was always some influence from the Beast, whether it was directly or not. And suddenly he gets psycho because of jealousy, because of hate what Chloe had down. Have you ever seen him act like this in the slightest bit when he was himself? Did he ever raise his voice in a moment of anger, or better yet, when did he ever get really angry while being himself.

Hey...It's nice to see you're still around defending Davis even after he's gone. I know it must be dissapointing to see your favorite leave. Are there any other characters in SV that you could like?

As far as Davis, it was unexpected that he turned killer without the influence of the beast. It may be that he became use to killing and he lost his goodness along the way.

Skaterpen357

05-17-2009, 10:48 AM

As far as Davis, it was unexpected that he turned killer without the influence of the beast. It may be that he became use to killing and he lost his goodness along the way.
That's how I saw it. Davis started out as a good guy, but since "Turbulence," or perhaps "Infamous," he's kinda been forced into murdering people whenever he feels the urge. Even if he lacks culpability in that he was forced into it, the psychological effects of becoming a serial killer were probably pretty devastating, whether or not he "wanted" it in the first place. By the end, whether or not he started out as a good person, the whole killing thing was too commonplace for him to control.

I actually like that they did that...much as I liked Davis early on, I wouldn't have wanted him to linger around as just another good guy. His purpose was served, and he made his own choice to kill Jimmy (regardless of the whole psychological thing, ultimately, it was his choice).

Davis Bloome

05-17-2009, 10:54 AM

Hey...It's nice to see you're still around defending Davis even after he's gone. I know it must be dissapointing to see your favorite leave. Are there any other characters in SV that you could like?

As far as Davis, it was unexpected that he turned killer without the influence of the beast. It may be that he became use to killing and he lost his goodness along the way. Sorry for my suspicion, but is that sarcasm, cause I know we didn't get along well in the beginning. As for an answer, before season 8, my favourite character was either Clark or Lex. I found Davis to be interesting cause he was an 'Anakin Skywalker' type of villain. And I'm a fan of Star Wars, which is funny considering Sam Witwer played Vader's apprentice he played Davis in SV. Nice coincidence. I think the Green Arrow is pretty cool for sure. It's always pretty much a dilemma who to decide who is wrong or right, Oliver or Clark when they are having an arguement. Clark's mentallity is probably better, but Oliver's actions are maybe better or it's sometimes the other way around.

SnowBird

05-17-2009, 11:10 AM

Sorry for my suspicion, but is that sarcasm, cause I know we didn't get along well in the beginning. As for an answer, before season 8, my favourite character was either Clark or Lex. I found Davis to be interesting cause he was an 'Anakin Skywalker' type of villain. And I'm a fan of Star Wars, which is funny considering Sam Witwer played Vader's apprentice he played Davis in SV. Nice coincidence. I think the Green Arrow is pretty cool for sure. It's always pretty much a dilemma who to decide who is wrong or right, Oliver or Clark when they are having an arguement. Clark's mentallity is probably better, but Oliver's actions are maybe better or it's sometimes the other way around.

Please no...Even though I don't always agree with someone doesn't mean I don't respect them, and I do respect you for your convictions. You stuck to your guns about Davis and I like that loyality in a person. I'm looking forward to who you choose in the future to defend and that's why I asked. See you around:)

Davis Bloome

05-17-2009, 11:44 AM

I only defended Davis because yes I liked the character and it seemed like the right thing to do because he got so much bad criticism. Well everybody is entitled to their opinion, but then I often reflected my opinion over and over and over again on theirs as you probably know yourself. I don't think I will need to defend someone in particular for Season 9. I'll just side with Clark at one point and at another point for someone else, depends how the story of the season goes. Anyway thx for replying and cya around!

LJ-90

05-17-2009, 02:07 PM

No he slipped into madness and turned into a psycho because of bad writing, even the actors agreed to that. SW expressed himself he was shocked by the script and argued against what they were doing to his character. Aaron Ashmore and him agreed on this, cause SW also said it was wrong what they did to Jimmy's character.

The problem is, Davis was always a very calm rational man, before facing the Beast. You take the beast away, you take the stress away. All his other murders were never based on selfish reasons and there was always some influence from the Beast, whether it was directly or not. And suddenly he gets psycho because of jealousy, because of hate what Chloe had down. Have you ever seen him act like this in the slightest bit when he was himself? Did he ever raise his voice in a moment of anger, or better yet, when did he ever get really angry while being himself.

Bad writting? Yes.
But, I believe that Davis was a little crazy at the end, if he didn't died I would had liked to see him in prison (probably willingly, THAT would have been full circle for his characther and totally "in characther)

Davis Bloome

05-17-2009, 02:09 PM

Crazy, no... Stressed, hell yeah! lol.
I wouldn't have like to see him in prison. I said it before, I would still have wanted him dead, I just didn't like how he died.

adromidon

05-17-2009, 08:16 PM

Crazy, no... Stressed, hell yeah! lol.
I wouldn't have like to see him in prison. I said it before, I would still have wanted him dead, I just didn't like how he died.
Hey man I hear you I liked the Davis Charecter it just seemed as though he was slowly slipping into darkness, and dragging Chloe down with him she turned into something all together different then her charecter usually acts. I to think SW got screwed with the way they treated him I would have even been happy if they kept the split and Davis became a regular for a few episode maybe as a reference for Clark on how the Beast thinks assuming Davis could remember any of the times he fully changed

Know SV though he would probably have remerged with Doomsday to better the world by the short periods he was able to control the beast

All about Clark

05-17-2009, 08:28 PM

I too, think Davis was always heading towards darkness. Killing just became to commonplace for him. He was even willing to kill Oliver just so he could hold out to Chloe got to him. This Davis character was doomed even without DD being part of him. And I, for one knew he'd meet his end in this eppy. There was just no reason for his character now that DD was gone. And to his mind, Chloe had betrayed him. And it would make sense for him to want to kill first Chloe and then Jimmy, Jimmy, always in his way.

Davis Bloome

05-17-2009, 08:31 PM

Hey man I hear you I liked the Davis Charecter it just seemed as though he was slowly slipping into darkness, and dragging Chloe down with him she turned into something all together different then her charecter usually acts. I to think SW got screwed with the way they treated him I would have even been happy if they kept the split and Davis became a regular for a few episode maybe as a reference for Clark on how the Beast thinks assuming Davis could remember any of the times he fully changed

Know SV though he would probably have remerged with Doomsday to better the world by the short periods he was able to control the beastYeah it's a real pity what they came out with in the end and that isn't just for Davis fans, but also for fans of Jimmy of Clark... this episode just had something badly written for almost every character. So what I don't like is when some fans criticize everthing the writers have done, except what they did with Davis? Sorry but I can't stand that and that is why I'm so defensive over this character, cause many knew including Sam Witwer Davis was suppose to be a good guy until the writers made a complete 180 turnaround on the characters, which really displeased him and all his fans.

Watching Smallville

05-17-2009, 08:34 PM

If Clark is dead, then this show has jumped the shark. It's hard enough following SV when I believe what I see. If I'm supposed to believe things I don't see, then this show is too much work.

jpfort1957

05-17-2009, 08:35 PM

If Jimmy hadn't killed Davis, Oliver would have.

Davis Bloome

05-17-2009, 08:39 PM

If Jimmy hadn't killed Davis, Oliver would have. Wouldn't have made much of a difference, at least not for me.

All about Clark

05-17-2009, 08:41 PM

I don't think Oliver's dead. I do think Clark is dead because Rokk knew everything Clark would do and told him outright that Clark would die. Rokk knew Clark's plan & how it involved the geothermal hole because it's part of his history.

See this is something I just can't agree on. Rokk in telling Clark he would die, made Clark do a different plan. By knowing nothing on Earth could destroy DD, then planting him underground was in fact changing history. And Rokk never told Clark anything about the way he would die by DD, so that's a poor assumption. Clark originially would probably just do battle face to face and die. The fact that Rokk was saying that that doesn't work, meant that Clark had to formulate a different approach.

adromidon

05-17-2009, 08:42 PM

You know despite all that has happened what would have happened if Oliver killed Clark when he shot him with that arrow by accident would he have even cared

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----

Oliver seems to be taking a much to liberal attitude with respect to killing lately

All about Clark

05-17-2009, 08:48 PM

I don't think Clark is dead because it makes more sense storywise for Clark to be somewhat lost and alone over the death of Jimmy, his feelings about humanity and his human side being dangerous to his destiny, and his friends betraying, each at some point except Jimmy. And Jimmy being the only one who didn't betray Clark end up dead, whewww.

It just strikes me as the perfect time for some alone time with Jor-el/training. Especially considering that it's best now while he thinks Lois is gone, because soon, it would be too hard to leave Lois.

adromidon

05-17-2009, 08:53 PM

Clark needs to get his Trainage on boo ya.

One question lingers though How did Clark revive the FOS if that is where their going with it he did not have enough power left to restore it and Tess destroyed his beloved PZ crystal so what exactly is going to happen now? I mean if it was the Eradicator then based on his story line he had the ability to regenerate the foss by altering the surrounding materials into the FOSS which he apparently did once if not twice in the comics.

----- Added 2 Minutes later -----

Or on SV they may just have him re-charge the FOSS for Clark at which point something bad would happen and within 5 minutes the Eradicator would be destroyed and Clark left alone or the FOSS leveled as is the nature of SV to introduce a new charecter then have something dramatic happen 4 or 5 minutes after we finaly understand their purpose

strmbldr317

05-17-2009, 09:53 PM

Stop it, people! There's no freakin' ghost! Supernatural comes on at 9pm eastern/8pm central if that's what you want. But enough with this Ghost-Clark crap.

Physically speaking, Clark Kent is alive and well. What's dead is his "Clark Kent, reporter for the Daily Planet, lover of messed up chicks" PERSONA. Clark has decided to fully embrace his Kryptonian heritage; eschewing all of his human, emotional attachments.

It's exactly like the Season 4 premiere, "Crusade", when Kal-El says to Marth Kent that "Clark Kent is dead" except this time, it is a choice that Clark is making.

I had posited elsewhere that when Rokk told Clark that "tomorrow is the day you die" that he was actually in refering to Clark shedding his humanity. However, that would only have worked if Rokk had addressed him as Clark and not Kal-El. But in either case, Clark is alive, Doomsday is buried underground and Zod has returned (in the body of Davis Bloome as he needs a Kryptonian body to really go up against Clark next season)

adromidon

05-17-2009, 10:12 PM

xrayvision

05-17-2009, 11:01 PM

If Clark is dead, then this show has jumped the shark. It's hard enough following SV when I believe what I see. If I'm supposed to believe things I don't see, then this show is too much work.

This is just another problem by not showing the fight. The lack of the fight did a lot of damage to the credibility of the show. They brought Doomsday as the villian of season 8, held Clark away from interacting with Davis for more than 90% of the season (only a few scenes with them together were seen in Plastique, Toxic, Eternal & Beast). And if you combine the "fights" in Bride & Doomsday, they don't even add up to 2 minutes. And this is Doomsday--the character that is surrounded by annihilation, brutality, and great fights with Superman. If they didn't intend on delivering these things, then they didn't have business choosing Doomsday as the villian.

The problem if Clark isn't dead is that their Doomsday is a weakling and they made a huge plothole because he was already killed by an explosion in Eternal, meaning that explosions after that episode would even put a scratch on him. He's too powerful to be buried alive in a hole to not escape. He also too powerful if he was killed & placed in a hole because he would just wake up and bust out in less than a week. That is the amount of time it took him to come back to life after the beating Superman gave him in the comics after their first fight.

Right now there's a lot of info we're missing. Clark doesn't even know if he ended up in the hole or just evaded it. That to me was very strange. How could he not remember whether or not he entered a pitch black hole that goes down into the Earth? This could be because he is either dead & is very confused or who we saw wasn't Clark but the Eradicator.

Another thing I came up with is that Davis may not have been killed by Jimmy. We know his body ended up on the Luthor mansion lawn. Maybe he was impaled because his body was drained of the solar energy due to Doomsday taking it all or he just didn't begin storing any until some time after Doomsday's presence was removed from his body. He could have recovered once he started absorbing solar energy like Raya did when she got sucked out of the Phantom Zone where she was stabbed by Aethyr and onto Earth. I wrote in another thread that it's possible Davis was the real Traveler. If this is true, then the orb controlled him once he recovered from his impaling and summoned him to the Luthor mansion where Zod possessed him. After all, every vessel ever seen on this show had to be a living vessel. And Davis is the son of Zod & Faora, who are Kryptonians, not humans. This would also align with various things revealed in the Justice & Doom thing they did during season 6. I detailed this out here:

http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4863590&postcount=5

----- Added 21 Minutes later -----

The only problem i see with both of them still fighting is the imagery points otherwise. A great fire burns for hours and then is put out. that screams imagery for a long drawn out battle that was too expensive to show with one or more dying. I would think the eradicator theory is the best choice. think back to when lex used the orb on clark last cliffhanger. CK woke up someplace and didn't know who he was. Guessing the eradicator did something to him then as it scanned him/collapsed the fortress or something. In a way it "prepared him" or was trying to determine if it was the "perfect kryptonian".

Maybe. I would love to see the Eradicator, but they haven't given us a damn bit of development. That's driving me crazy. Every Kryptonian thing that happens in this show is pulled out TPTB's butts. Nothing is developed with hints & signs where you can say, "oh yeah, that makes sense". This happened with the meteor shower & Brainiac's appearance in season 4 & so many other things.

In Supernatural, Kripke threw in hints of Azazel's endgame throughout the series and after 4 seasons, we finally are able to assemble those pieces together to see what it was. Now that's what I call writing. Not what we get here.

That whole Traveler thing doesn't add up to a hill of beans. It makes no sense. If they knew they would bring in Doomsday in season 8, then why didn't they align Veritas & the Traveler plot(s) to have Doomsday be the Traveler? Justice & Doom, which is what kicked off Veritas explained that Zod contacted Gertrude (Genevieve Teague's ancestor who burned Isobel at the stake) through a rift/void in time using some sort of kryptonite (I think it was explained to be similar to how Lana of the future contacted Clark of the present in the episode Crisis). The Veritas society that began with Gertrude and probably the ancestors of the Queens, Swanns & Luthors ended with the Teagues (Genevieve & Edward), Lionel, Virgil Swann & the Queens and its primary goal was to defend Earth from aliens (Zod). So who better to have the Traveler than Davis Bloom, Zod's own son. If Veritas created the orb to control the Traveler or had help from the House of El member(s) who was/were living at the time, then Doomsday would be the perfect one for TPTB to have made the Traveler.

Given the retcon fever that has been going on, they can easily re-interpret Davis as the Traveler & leave Clark as Naman. I always thought they should leave Clark as ONLY Naman while make the Traveler an evil alien.

Maybe they will reveal Jor-El to be the Eradicator. The Eradicator in the comics was a device in the Fortress since back then in the comics mythos there was no Jor-El presence in the FOS. I don't doubt this happening at all. Having Tom Welling play the Eradicator in a physical form would be cheaper than trying to get Terrence Stamp, and with the death of Jimmy, it's obvious that slashing costs is high on their priority list. I wouldn't be surprised if they reveal the Jor-El presence to be the Eradicator and have it possess a body created out of Clark's DNA and take his place during his absence.

Welling_is_pretty

05-18-2009, 11:19 AM

When i first saw Clark and the way he was acting I wondered if he wasn't a ghost or something. A projection of some kind.

I also wonder if he wasn't affected by the Black K somehow. It does seem like we had "Kal" there, not Clark. perhaps Clark is buried under the earth with Doomsday "Dead" to the world and Kal is the one out and about...?

HeroesUnlimited

05-18-2009, 03:56 PM

acciobrain101

05-18-2009, 03:59 PM

Clark a ghost ... that would make things interesting.

xrayvision

05-18-2009, 04:24 PM

XRay Vision, I was just going to start a new thread about this. I'm glad I noticed yours first. (I was going to include a poll too). Here's my theory...

Does anyone else thing Clark is actually "dead"? I think season 9 begins with Clark buried in that shaft with Doomsday. I think the final scene in Doomsday was actually a dream or hallucination. Clark disappearing at the end seems to suggest that. Also the fact that he kept his distance at the funeral, thereby not actually interacting with anyone. It had a Sixth Sense kind of feel to it (to me).

----- Added 2 Minutes later -----

I think you're still going to...in the season 9 premiere.

I speculated something about Clark's body being pulled out the hole in the premiere & I think it would be a great scene. Here is an excerpt from the post I made:

A death like this would be very weird to have in a season premiere. But I did picture a scene where Rokk goes to the future to see how it was affected, finds Lois there, uses the ring Lois has to send her back to the present, and then returns to the present himself & uses his ring to to fly down into the hole and fly up with Clark's dead body and lay him down on the ground. I can picture this and it would be a great scene, but I just don't see this happening in a premiere. I could see it happening during a finale, but just not in the premiere, unless they decide to have a time lapse between the premiere & the 2nd episode (which they did in certain seasons like seasons 2, 5 & 6). Season 2 had the largest lapse between the 1st & 2nd episodes and they would need to have a similar lapse in season 9 to make this possible.

For the full post, check out this link:

http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4863084&postcount=66

That entire thread talks about how the premiere will be the SV equivalent of the Death of Superman. It would be cool, but it's a damn shame that it didn't happen in Doomsday and how Jimmy instead was killed.

HeroesUnlimited

05-18-2009, 06:36 PM

I speculated something about Clark's body being pulled out the hole in the premiere & I think it would be a great scene. Here is an excerpt from the post I made:

For the full post, check out this link:

http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4863084&postcount=66

That entire thread talks about how the premiere will be the SV equivalent of the Death of Superman. It would be cool, but it's a damn shame that it didn't happen in Doomsday and how Jimmy instead was killed.

I think there were budget restraints which prevented them from telling the story they really wanted to tell in the finale. I think (in hindsight) what they should have done was just to scrap the Beast episode entirely and make the finale 2 hours (combine their budget for two episodes into one big one). But since they didn't, I think what they did was give the viewer breadcrumbs, leading us to infer what happened off screen. I think the knock down, drag out fight DID happen and I think both Clark and Doomsday DID die. I just think we didn't see it. I think what we SHOULD get in the season 9 premiere is a quick epiphany that Clark is indeed dead (whether this be accomplished with a shot of his dead body in the shaft or Chloe reaching out to touch him and then having him vanish). Then they need to "flash back" to the fight. Since Clark will be dead, it will have to be a flashback of someone who was there to see it. One of the Justice Leaguers perhaps? Maybe the Martian Manhunter? (He should have been in the finale by the way) Then I think, the guy in the orb NEEDS to be revealed as the Eradicator. I know they already kind of committed themselves by using Zod's name, but maybe they could say he was actually HUNTING Zod rather than BEING Zod. He would, of course, find out that Zod's dead, then pursue his son (Doomsday). From this he would learn of Clark's and Doomsday's fight to the death and assume Kal-el's identity (as the ruthless, badass version of Superman/Clark, preserving all things Kryptonian). While all of this is going on, they could be telling the story of Jonathan Kent guiding Clark back to the land of the living. "It's not your time yet son." When Clark "recovers", he finds Doomsday (alive again), fighting the Eradicator. Then (finally) do we actually get to SEE Clark and Doomsday go at it. That's what I'D like to see.

KKaLL

05-18-2009, 06:39 PM

Lois didn't die she just put on the Legion ring and was sent to another time period.

haydenclaireheroes

05-18-2009, 07:05 PM

i do not think he is dead but i know that is truly not clark.

xrayvision

05-18-2009, 08:39 PM

I think there were budget restraints which prevented them from telling the story they really wanted to tell in the finale. I think (in hindsight) what they should have done was just to scrap the Beast episode entirely and make the finale 2 hours (combine their budget for two episodes into one big one). But since they didn't, I think what they did was give the viewer breadcrumbs, leading us to infer what happened off screen. I think the knock down, drag out fight DID happen and I think both Clark and Doomsday DID die. I just think we didn't see it. I think what we SHOULD get in the season 9 premiere is a quick epiphany that Clark is indeed dead (whether this be accomplished with a shot of his dead body in the shaft or Chloe reaching out to touch him and then having him vanish). Then they need to "flash back" to the fight. Since Clark will be dead, it will have to be a flashback of someone who was there to see it. One of the Justice Leaguers perhaps? Maybe the Martian Manhunter? (He should have been in the finale by the way) Then I think, the guy in the orb NEEDS to be revealed as the Eradicator. I know they already kind of committed themselves by using Zod's name, but maybe they could say he was actually HUNTING Zod rather than BEING Zod. He would, of course, find out that Zod's dead, then pursue his son (Doomsday). From this he would learn of Clark's and Doomsday's fight to the death and assume Kal-el's identity (as the ruthless, badass version of Superman/Clark, preserving all things Kryptonian). While all of this is going on, they could be telling the story of Jonathan Kent guiding Clark back to the land of the living. "It's not your time yet son." When Clark "recovers", he finds Doomsday (alive again), fighting the Eradicator. Then (finally) do we actually get to SEE Clark and Doomsday go at it. That's what I'D like to see.

I totally agree. Or instead of showing a flashback of the fight, they should show Clark rising at the end of the episode and Doomsday rising too & have a fight in the 2nd S9 episode. It would be hard showing a fight in a hole, so having one on the surface would be easier. This would allow Clark to come up with a more permanent entrapment of Doomsday. Maybe the Eradicator could open a Phantom Zone portal so Clark could send him to the Zone.

I said it a few weeks ago that if anyone would seek out to hunt Zod, it would be the Eradicator since it/he was designed to preserve Krypton & its traditions & Zod destroyed it (in one of the versions of Krypton's destruction anyway).

patrese

05-18-2009, 08:56 PM

Boycott SF:Movie

05-18-2009, 09:04 PM

Doomsday took Clark's body to replace Davis!

All about Clark

05-18-2009, 09:29 PM

I think that TPTB made this a gray issue just to have you argue this all summer.

Sometimes I think exactly what was said is what has happened. Meaning Clark is alive and messed up mentally. But I will agree that the possibility of it being Clark's ghost is a possibility but highly unlikely. We know that Clark is meant to survive, so what difference does it make if it were a ghost, it would still be temporary and everything would go on as planned.

Quite frankly, I think TPTB leave things open sometimes to get a feel for which way the posters would prefer to have it. And I prefer Clark to be alive now and just messed up mentally. It makes for a better story.

Krypton's Man of Steel

05-18-2009, 09:34 PM

This could be because he is either dead & is very confused or who we saw wasn't Clark but the Eradicator.

That's what I was thinking when I first saw it, and then when he went on to say that Clark was dead and he was abandoning his human side that fit the Eradicator perfectly as he was seen in the Reign of the Supermen story arc

redkryptoniteisthebest

05-18-2009, 09:37 PM

Krypton's Man of Steel

05-18-2009, 09:43 PM

I believe that he died shielding the return Superman from a kryptonite blast and was sent to STAR labs where he merged with Dr. Connor and joined the Outsiders

xrayvision

05-18-2009, 11:07 PM

That would be insane. Honestly, if the ending to the premiere was Clark and Doomsday rising from the dead, it would probably go down as one of the best endings to an episode. The next episode could truly be dedicated to a much-needed DD/CK battle.

The Eradicator would do/did that? Whatever happened to him after Superman came back?

I'm guessing he would since his primary purpose (at least back when he was an it--a device) was to preserve Kryptonian culture and Zod is the destroyer of Krypton in Smallville so he would likely target Zod as a humanoid being.

The Eradicator was killed when he shielded Superman (who had returned recently & wearing the black Kryptonian lifesuit to help him better absorb solar radiation since he was severely underpowered) from an explosion of kryptonite based petroleum caused by the Cyborg Superman & Mongul. His presence altered the properties of the kryptronite so that instead of having negative effects, it fully restored his powers.

Pantalaimon

05-19-2009, 04:16 AM

I think the spectral exit was symbolic. Clark isn't physically dead, but he is symbolically. The future thinks he's dead because Clark Kent disappears after the Doomsday fight and he never becomes Superman because he still needs his humanity to be Superman.

SGuthrie27

05-19-2009, 04:47 AM

Even though the ending was really weird, I'm going to have to go with Pantalaimon here. Clark is not dead, but yes, as he's given up on his human persona (for now at least) they wanted to make it appear more "death-like" in his exit from the Watchtower. It was just a different method of showing his super-speed, maybe as it sounded from Chloe's perspective rather than Clark's? I keep thinking about "Promise," when they showed Clark super-speed away out of Lex's wine cellar while Lana was secretly looking on, and his zipping outta there after his argument with Chloe sounded very different when taken from Lana's POV and not Clark's. I think perhaps that's another reason they chose the sound effect and visual that they did here, but maybe I'm overanalyzing things too much. Wouldn't be the first time! ;)

--SGuthrie ><>' :)--

skully

05-19-2009, 04:55 AM

Some great points made above.

As I said on another thread, I have faith that PS (after what amounts to a pretty damn good season at the helm) couldn't get the Finale so badly "wrong". It could be a ploy to have us arguing and conjecturing all summer.

I really like the idea of the Clark who spoke so weirdly to Chloe in the final scene in the Watchtower, not being the real Clark, and the real Clark still being in the hole with Doomy. It actually makes total sense to me.

And if that's the way it pans out, I will give PS a huge round of applause in duping the fans. That would make the S9 Premiere totally awesome.

I hope I'm not disappointed. :(

TOMophilus

05-19-2009, 04:58 AM

I know we can´t trust PS3 anymore given all the crap that has happened in the finale. But if what they say about Clark facing a dark period is true, then it makes no sense that he should be dead. My guess is that the story continues with a disillusioned Clark who has lost his trust in humanity, until he finds the necessary balance again. I only hope they don´t make him turn into an Ollie-like vigilante type. Anyway, the death scenario doesn´t make much sense then. Besides, they have a new villain now, so there is no point in continuing the (failed) Doomsday story.

SnowBird

05-19-2009, 06:43 AM

I don't think Clark has lost trust in humanity. He has just turned to his Kryptonian side like Jor-El has suggested he do. Jor-El sent Clark to earth to save mankind and he is now embracing his father's wishes. He has cut his ties to the ones he loves so his emotions won't get in the way of his judgement. This is a lonely life he has chosen and he will realize that his humanity isn't the burden he thought it was.

To answer the question. Clark Kent is dead only in that this humanity side of himself is going to disappear and he will be Kal-El the Kryptonian controlling his emotions. It is not a physical death but a pyscological one.

Pantalaimon

05-19-2009, 08:56 AM

^second that

All about Clark

05-19-2009, 09:10 AM

Doomville

05-19-2009, 09:17 AM

SnowBird

05-19-2009, 09:58 AM

God i hope so i am sick a tired of the softy Clark. it is about time he mans up and accepts what he was sent to earth to do.

The "softy Clark" as you call him, buried Doomsday in the ground and saved the world for now. Not so soft if you ask me.

Doomville

05-19-2009, 10:26 AM

The "softy Clark" as you call him, buried Doomsday in the ground and saved the world for now. Not so soft if you ask me.

I don't mean he is physically soft but he relies too much on his emotions, i think he should man up and stop caring about all the bad people and focus on saving the good people.

HeroesUnlimited

05-19-2009, 01:31 PM

I totally agree. Or instead of showing a flashback of the fight, they should show Clark rising at the end of the episode and Doomsday rising too & have a fight in the 2nd S9 episode. It would be hard showing a fight in a hole, so having one on the surface would be easier. This would allow Clark to come up with a more permanent entrapment of Doomsday. Maybe the Eradicator could open a Phantom Zone portal so Clark could send him to the Zone.

I said it a few weeks ago that if anyone would seek out to hunt Zod, it would be the Eradicator since it/he was designed to preserve Krypton & its traditions & Zod destroyed it (in one of the versions of Krypton's destruction anyway).

Speaking of the Eradicator, I LOVE the avatar. Where did you get it? I'd love to have a copy of that. He was (by far) my favorite of the impostor Supermen.

----- Added 2 Minutes later -----

I'm guessing he would since his primary purpose (at least back when he was an it--a device) was to preserve Kryptonian culture and Zod is the destroyer of Krypton in Smallville so he would likely target Zod as a humanoid being.

The Eradicator was killed when he shielded Superman (who had returned recently & wearing the black Kryptonian lifesuit to help him better absorb solar radiation since he was severely underpowered) from an explosion of kryptonite based petroleum caused by the Cyborg Superman & Mongul. His presence altered the properties of the kryptronite so that instead of having negative effects, it fully restored his powers.

That didn't finish him off. He has been seen in the comics since then.

----- Added 4 Minutes later -----

Some great points made above.

As I said on another thread, I have faith that PS (after what amounts to a pretty damn good season at the helm) couldn't get the Finale so badly "wrong". It could be a ploy to have us arguing and conjecturing all summer.

I really like the idea of the Clark who spoke so weirdly to Chloe in the final scene in the Watchtower, not being the real Clark, and the real Clark still being in the hole with Doomy. It actually makes total sense to me.

And if that's the way it pans out, I will give PS a huge round of applause in duping the fans. That would make the S9 Premiere totally awesome.

I hope I'm not disappointed. :(

I HOPE they don't say that the Clark which spoke to Chloe at the end of Doomsday is (in fact) Bizarro. Bizzaro (while similar in appearance) doesn't have the same agenda as the Eradicator (or Clark's Kal-el side).

ChronX4

05-19-2009, 01:42 PM

I HOPE they don't say that the Clark which spoke to Chloe at the end of Doomsday is (in fact) Bizarro. Bizzaro (while similar in appearance) doesn't have the same agenda as the Eradicator (or Clark's Kal-el side).

What are you talking about? We all know Bizzaro has the hots for Lana and is now with her forever since she's a kryptonite radiation hazard.

onlystevenc

05-19-2009, 02:09 PM

i believe that clark didnt' die. i believe that when he takes doomsday to the geothermical facility they actually go to the center of the earth and have a battle in the middle of the lava :p

Tompouce

05-19-2009, 02:11 PM

SnowBird

05-19-2009, 02:14 PM

I don't mean he is physically soft but he relies too much on his emotions, i think he should man up and stop caring about all the bad people and focus on saving the good people.

Clark is turning to his Kryptonian side where he'll control his emotions. We'll see how that turns out. A stoic Clark that never smiles and saves people more like a robot, maybe.

Exedore

05-19-2009, 02:18 PM

Clark is turning to his Kryptonian side where he'll control his emotions. We'll see how that turns out. A stoic Clark that never smiles and saves people more like a robot, maybe.

And after saving people he tells them: "Live long and prosper". :rolleyes:

SnowBird

05-19-2009, 02:19 PM

Exactly. Bev, it is a pity we are not in the same country, we make such a good team with our ideas this week:D;)

Yes, I have noticed in the past we are on the same wave length. You know what they say. Great minds think alike:)

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----

And after saving people he tells them: "Live long and prosper". :rolleyes:

Spock, I presume...LOL

HeroesUnlimited

05-20-2009, 05:45 PM

What are you talking about? We all know Bizzaro has the hots for Lana and is now with her forever since she's a kryptonite radiation hazard.

lol, good point. They deserve each other. Both are the oposite of "normal".

adromidon

05-21-2009, 09:22 AM

Bizzaro is the perfect way for Lana to be with Clark with out actually being with Clark lol

Davis Bloome

05-21-2009, 10:10 AM

Actually wouldn't Bizarro be able to absorb all that Green K into his body, so that lana has nothing left. But Bizarro would even become much stronger than DD lol.

HeroesUnlimited

05-21-2009, 05:16 PM

Actually wouldn't Bizarro be able to absorb all that Green K into his body, so that lana has nothing left. But Bizarro would even become much stronger than DD lol.

Interesting...

Kschreck

05-21-2009, 07:57 PM

Clark Kent is just as alive as always. When Clark faded at the end of Doomsday, it was only to showcase that the "Clark Kent" persona has died. This was the metaphorical death that the producers have talked about. It was also confirmed that Clark wouldn't die in the finale (I think by Ausiello). Beyond that, the producers gave no indication of Clark dying. They want to see Clark up for season nine as blaming himself for everything that has happened (according to the producers in one of their interviews).

I saw this as huge regression but that is becoming a huge trend for Smallville these days. At any rate, these things are NOT happening:

-Clark Kent is NOT dead, this is NOT the Death of Superman story happening.
-The Eradicator is NOT going to play a role in season nine.

These two things I am sure about. None the less they still remain my opinion.

xrayvision

05-21-2009, 08:11 PM

Kevin,

That may just be a trick they're pulling off. They can still show Clark dead in the premiere. Tess said that for the life in the orb to be released, the beast must die. The only way Doomsday died is if Clark & him continued fighting down in the hole. So this would mean:

1. Clark & Doomsday killed each other in the hole.

2. The Clark we saw was his spirit.

3. Davis didn't die, but was healed once he absorbed enough yellow solar radiation. This would have to happen for Zod to possess him because phantoms can't possess dead vessels. This would mean that the real Traveler is Davis as once he came back to life at the morgue, he was controlled by the orb like the Traveler was supposed to do according to the Veritas plot. And once he marched over to the mansion, the phantom of Zod completely took control of him like Dr. Hudson tried to do to Clark in Labyrinth & like Zod was about to do to Clark in Solitude.

Kschreck

05-21-2009, 08:32 PM

Doomsday isn't dead. He is more or less buried alive. (to align with the comics).

xrayvision

05-21-2009, 09:05 PM

adromidon

05-22-2009, 03:41 PM

Yes, but in the comics we was buried for minutes until he got out. Here he would be buried for years. It's not like DD to just give up & throw it the towel with the power he has. There's just no way I believe DD would just stay there for years.
I think Doomsday may be one of those unfortunate villians that for some unknown reason shows up for a season then is forgoten. It does not seem to me anyway that he will be as present in season 9 I am guesing he will have limited screen time as their primary villian will be what ever the Orb spit out

Do not get me wrong nothing would be cooler then a long drawn out 2-3 episode brawl with doomsday but not gonna happen I am thinking

malft

05-22-2009, 09:42 PM

I think they will show that the chlark parlay was telepathic and took place on the astral plane. Objects and buildings exist but, their molecules are further apart and your astral spirit can manuever even through a "solid" wall. Its all just quantum physics. Kind of like how Lois will get back and immediately put all her money into the stock market where she will build a small fortune, just the thing for a gal of action that needs shoes for any occasion.

ryan-el

05-30-2009, 05:59 PM

has anyone even considered to possibility that clark is NOT dead?

that maybe the "fade away" effect we saw was a homage to Chloe's devastation in losing everyone she holds dear.

has anyone ever thought that overthinking this thing to the point of "ghosts", "eradicator", "lining up with mythos"...is a bit unnessecary, as none of what we "think" should and did happen will effect what the writers have already put into place for season 9.

serioulsy...some fans...i just don't get em.

lining up any of smallville to the comic lines will do you no justice in summing up the equation of "what just happened?". Clearly the writers are paving their own path here, and rightly so...its a great TV show, no matter how much they change the "original" story.

enjoy the ride, and quite over thinking it.

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----

I think they will show that the chlark parlay was telepathic and took place on the astral plane. Objects and buildings exist but, their molecules are further apart and your astral spirit can manuever even through a "solid" wall. Its all just quantum physics. Kind of like how Lois will get back and immediately put all her money into the stock market where she will build a small fortune, just the thing for a gal of action that needs shoes for any occasion.

now thats a good one????

:rotfl:

----- Added 8 Minutes later -----

I don't think Clark has lost trust in humanity. He has just turned to his Kryptonian side like Jor-El has suggested he do. Jor-El sent Clark to earth to save mankind and he is now embracing his father's wishes. He has cut his ties to the ones he loves so his emotions won't get in the way of his judgement. This is a lonely life he has chosen and he will realize that his humanity isn't the burden he thought it was.

To answer the question......It is not a physical death but a pyscological one.

i like this...its based on what we saw and is not some irrational opinionated plunge into what we "want" to happen or think "should".

good stuff.

adromidon

05-30-2009, 10:54 PM

fan of the man

05-31-2009, 02:14 PM

Actually wouldn't Bizarro be able to absorb all that Green K into his body, so that lana has nothing left. But Bizarro would even become much stronger than DD lol.

There is story line that the writer could use if they bought Kristen back and she ends up losing her super powers and become the nomal Lana Lang. I like it!

ryan-el

05-31-2009, 04:53 PM

The new powers that be have said that everything that happened in season 8 was to try and sync smallville with the mythos as close as possible

maybe so...

keep in mind though that they had the reigns the ENTIRE season...and most likely long before the creative development and execution of the Doomsday/Davis Bloom character. This alone says wonders for their desire and ability to line up with Superman legend preceding Smallville.

to me its not a problem, I've been entertained exponentially for 8 years now, so whatever they do, more power to the producers. Its just not, thus far, and most likely going forward, gonna line up with what we know as Superman mythology.

SGuthrie27

05-31-2009, 04:58 PM

I really wouldn't be happy if Clark had actually, physically died. I don't think that's possible at all. He doesn't get killed in battle with Doomsday until he officially adopts the red and blue tights of Superman. And besides, Chloe embraced Clark -- it's kind of hard to hug a ghost. Not that I have any personal experience or anything, but I have to imagine it'd be a little tricky to touch an intangible phantom.

--SGuthrie ><>' :)--

adromidon

05-31-2009, 10:15 PM

After watching that scene a few times I think this is what happened.

Clark fought doomsday sent him into the plant and flew out. He is still unsure if he actually flew or jumped so when asked by Chloe how he got out in time he stops and says he did not know. I say this because watch the scene over he hesitates before telling her that he was not sure how he got out. If he was sure he just jumped he would not have hesitated. Keep in mind he has flown without knowing how or even why before when he save Lana in the tornado he said he felt as though he was propelled forward somehow.

He feels his life has been the cause of everything that has gone wrong in the otherwise quiet town of Smallville. While not directly resposible his arrival brought with it the introduction of meteor rock and with it meteor freaks. His multiple attempts to refuse his training have cause such tradegies as: A human being posssed to think she is Kara and then later killed, The assualt of Zod on Lex, Brainiac, the two that came out of the brainiac ship, a yet second meteor shower producing even more meteor rock, Lex to become evil, the death of Lionel Luther, The death of his adopted father (if Clark had not been there Johnathan would have never made the deal with Jor-EL and his heart would still be intact), the death of Raya, Countless victims of the Meteor infected, Death of Jimmie, time displacement of Lois and the list goes on and on

He does have a equaly long list of accomplishments but at this point in time he is more weighed down by the negative things his presence brought on earth. I now belive his death was metaphorical after all the powers that be said a well known charecter would have a metaphorical death. Does this mean Clark Kent is dead and Kal-El will never play as him again? No I think after he has had time to sort things out he will limit his Clark persona to a minimal so that he can draw attention off his true identity

Will he abandon Chloe and the rest of his friends?
Proabably at first but he will later realize he can not do it alone.

I do think this is a much needed time for him to reflect on his past and formulate his future (start developing the Superman persona even if not adorning it completely yet)

SGuthrie27

05-31-2009, 10:27 PM

Wow, that was very well thought-out and insightful, adromidon. Well said! I hope you're right.

--SGuthrie ><>' :)--

adromidon

05-31-2009, 10:36 PM

Thanks,
I should mention that just because my theory shows him flying out of the plant does not mean he will automatically fly everywhere refer again back to that lana incident. He will know that he will have to at some point and may conciously do it but for now it may still be a sub-concious defense mechanism kind of how a person will shutdown and go into a catatonic state if they have had to much stress.

SGuthrie27

05-31-2009, 10:43 PM

Yeah, and really, that does make sense, too, especially considering some of the times he's sort of "flown" like when he jumped with Tess to safety in "Turbulence," the time with Lana you referenced in "Tempest," and the missile-stopping leap in "Hidden."

--SGuthrie ><>' :)--

adromidon

05-31-2009, 11:06 PM

Well the missile leap and the tess thing could easily be passed off as not flying however in tempest he mentioned specificaly that he felt he was propelled forward but was not sure how which would mean flight.

At this point he knows he is capable of flight he saw Kara do it and Lexod for that matter so he knows it possible he is just not ready to put his faith in his abilities and so he is grounded ethier way this is getting off topic

tmchale1970

06-01-2009, 03:01 AM

clark did not die it was just a metaphore for what he said "clark kent is dead"

ox007

06-01-2009, 03:33 AM

^ That's right, Clark is not dead, he's very much alive but lost his faith in humanity. Come on, it would be boring if Clark was dying in every season's finale, the death of Superman in the future after a battle with Doomie would not be as believable, because it wouldn't be something new

Sweetie

06-01-2009, 10:58 AM

CK is not really dead,he just lost his faith in humanity.The Clark Kent that we all have known until now is dead.Next season,CK will embrace his kryptonian side totally,have a dark persona,will save people without real emotion and when he works at DP,he will wear jacket & glasses.I'm pretty sure when Lois will come back,he will start beleive in humanity again.

xrayvision

06-03-2009, 10:21 AM

I recommend they explain that Clark died and use a plot like the one I pointed out:

http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4907661&postcount=213

ryan-el

06-03-2009, 01:52 PM

I recommend they explain that Clark died and use a plot like the one I pointed out:

http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4907661&postcount=213

goodness...you really are obsessed.

that is one passionate attempt at fixing a season finale (that really wasn't as bad as people claim).

way too much time on your hands. way too much.

you really think they should go 4 episodes with NO appearance of Oliver Queen, next to no speaking lines for Chloe, or that they can or should have so many fight scenes in addition to a boat load of flying. wow, very intersting take...but evidence of what i've been saying all along:

people take this far too seriously and have a much more loose knowledge of TV and how it operates.

First off, they don't wanna "fix" anything more than "finish" the cliffhangers. Secondly, the fight and flight you speak about would cost WAY too much. Third, they won't be bringing back Jimmy...as proof from the season 9 press release.

props to the effort you made, but it just doesn't work....sorry.

xrayvision

06-03-2009, 03:05 PM

goodness...you really are obsessed.

that is one passionate attempt at fixing a season finale (that really wasn't as bad as people claim).

way too much time on your hands. way too much.

Well, I'm currently looking for a job so between interviews & finding job postings, I do have a lot more time than I otherwise would.

you really think they should go 4 episodes with NO appearance of Oliver Queen, next to no speaking lines for Chloe, or that they can or should have so many fight scenes in addition to a boat load of flying. wow, very intersting take...but evidence of what i've been saying all along:

I think they should go the rest of the series without Oliver Queen since whenever he's in an episode, it becomes about him instead of Clark. They should limit him to 2 appearances max per season. My plan does include the return of Chloe to a "normal" state by the end of the 5th episode. I also posted the same plan as I did for the first 3 out of the 4 episodes at that link, but as a Pre-Season 9 movie to be aired in August as a seperate deal with its own budget so they don't bog the Season 9 plot with fixing the mess created by Doomsday.

people take this far too seriously and have a much more loose knowledge of TV and how it operates.

First off, they don't wanna "fix" anything more than "finish" the cliffhangers. Secondly, the fight and flight you speak about would cost WAY too much. Third, they won't be bringing back Jimmy...as proof from the season 9 press release.

Well, that's the problem. They don't realize how many people they offended by failing to deliver the fight that everyone was expecting and doing what they did to Jimmy. These are huge issues, and if they want any type of credibility or rebound to the ratings, these need to be fixed. Otherwise, I can guarantee you that the ratings at the start of season 9 will be no better than the end of season 8 and the show will be off the air within the 9th season. All I can say is they better revise that press release and rethink their strategy because many of the actors themselves took a disliking of the finale & they still chose to go with it. The ball is in their court. If they turn this show into a Justice League show and proceed with their plans to build a Watchtower set, the interest will continue plummeting. Many of the remaining fans have waited for a payoff to see the Daily Planet and the happenings that take place there. Seeing other heroes instead of Clark, other villians like Zod instead of Intergang with or without Darkseid, and other characters instead of Jimmy, Lois, Perry White, or even Pete Ross at City Hall as Clark's source for corruption caused by Intergang will hurt this show big time. I keep saying that there is a reason why no Justice League movie has been made, and this is precisely why. This show was created to show Clark's life before becoming Superman and how he becomes Superman, not Clark joining the Justice League & being part of its missions. Once that happens, the show has officially jumped the shark.

props to the effort you made, but it just doesn't work....sorry.

Thanks, but if this doesn't work, then I'm saying the show won't work. I personally won't kill my Friday nights staying home to watch a show that has no payoff after waiting for 1 for the 5 years and not getting one since season 3. I know many others will be the same way. By not correcting these mistakes, these writers will turn this show into a Justice League show and will transform it into something unnatural. The natural progression now is to focus on Clark as the RBB & Clark as a journalist with Lois, Jimmy & Perry. The events of Doomsday indicate that Chloe will still be the leading female, and since her only role is the Watchtower (since they won't do what I have planned for her) then there's nothing else the show would focus on. Instead of finally making Lois the lead female, which should have happened in season 8, and keeping Jimmy alive & in Clark's life, they did everything the opposite.

ryan-el

06-03-2009, 03:56 PM

Well, that's the problem. They don't realize how many people they offended by failing to deliver the fight that everyone was expecting and doing what they did to Jimmy. These are huge issues, and if they want any type of credibility or rebound to the ratings, these need to be fixed.

i'm pretty sure they do know...these forums are just one of the hundreds of avenues that they have to know how disappointing the finale was.

Otherwise, I can guarantee you that the ratings at the start of season 9 will be no better than the end of season 8 and the show will be off the air within the 9th season.

this seems to be the case no matter the direction they go...we shall see.

Thanks, but if this doesn't work, then I'm saying the show won't work. I personally won't kill my Friday nights staying home to watch a show that has no payoff after waiting for 1 for the 5 years and not getting one since season 3. I know many others will be the same way. By not correcting these mistakes, these writers will turn this show into a Justice League show and will transform it into something unnatural.

the passion that you show in posting as much as you do, in addition to the time and artistry you put into your "proposed" episodes 9:1-4 are evidence that you will be watching. I can imagine the biggest problem they face is the move to Friday nights...not whether or not Doomsday and Clark fought enough.

I'm not sure that i agree with the theory that Smallville is turning into a Justice League show. I'm not seeing that. I agree with you that the foundation needs to be Clark and his development (which has been a lot slower and more annoying than it need be). Although, when i watch the shows back I'm not seeing as much of the JL characters as people claim...I'm seeing a lot of focus on Clark and Lois falling in love...Clark moving closer to a "hero" and a strong build up to Clark learning flight.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but i believe Impulse and Aquaman have only been in 3 episodes each with Cyborg and Black Canary only 2. Not nearly enough to justify a JL focus theory or anger there in. One must also remember that to go 8 seasons on what is to be "development" one would have to branch out and tell other stories along the way, and in this, I'm totally OK with the choices made so far (that have been quite entertaining). At least they have kept them all tied into Clark's development.

Your view is appreciated, and inspiring at the least, but i must respectfully and completely disagree.

xrayvision

06-05-2009, 02:24 PM

i'm pretty sure they do know...these forums are just one of the hundreds of avenues that they have to know how disappointing the finale was.

this seems to be the case no matter the direction they go...we shall see.

the passion that you show in posting as much as you do, in addition to the time and artistry you put into your "proposed" episodes 9:1-4 are evidence that you will be watching. I can imagine the biggest problem they face is the move to Friday nights...not whether or not Doomsday and Clark fought enough.

I'm not sure that i agree with the theory that Smallville is turning into a Justice League show. I'm not seeing that. I agree with you that the foundation needs to be Clark and his development (which has been a lot slower and more annoying than it need be). Although, when i watch the shows back I'm not seeing as much of the JL characters as people claim...I'm seeing a lot of focus on Clark and Lois falling in love...Clark moving closer to a "hero" and a strong build up to Clark learning flight.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but i believe Impulse and Aquaman have only been in 3 episodes each with Cyborg and Black Canary only 2. Not nearly enough to justify a JL focus theory or anger there in. One must also remember that to go 8 seasons on what is to be "development" one would have to branch out and tell other stories along the way, and in this, I'm totally OK with the choices made so far (that have been quite entertaining). At least they have kept them all tied into Clark's development.

Your view is appreciated, and inspiring at the least, but i must respectfully and completely disagree.

When I say turning into a JLA show, I don't mean regarding past seasons. I meant if you look at the clues we have now going forward. If the Daily Planet would become the center of the show's focal point, then they wouldn't have killed 1/3 of the Big 3. This wasn't the case. Instead they did kill Jimmy. And Chloe survived. Chloe was shown to have ditched her life for the Watchtower role in Hex. Chloe will also be the lead female in season 9. They also introduced a Watchtower set. So I put all these pieces into an equation:

Jimmy's death + Chloe's survival + Chloe as the female lead in Season 9 + Chloe's role in this show as nothing else but Watchtower + the Watchtower set

= Smallville becoming focused on the JLA instead of being a show about Superman

One would have to ask what else will the female lead be doing every episode if they don't do this.

This goes against my key points for a successful season 9:

http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4913765&postcount=14

ryan-el

06-06-2009, 10:10 AM

When I say turning into a JLA show, I don't mean regarding past seasons. I meant if you look at the clues we have now going forward. If the Daily Planet would become the center of the show's focal point, then they wouldn't have killed 1/3 of the Big 3. This wasn't the case. Instead they did kill Jimmy. And Chloe survived. Chloe was shown to have ditched her life for the Watchtower role in Hex. Chloe will also be the lead female in season 9. They also introduced a Watchtower set. So I put all these pieces into an equation:

Jimmy's death + Chloe's survival + Chloe as the female lead in Season 9 + Chloe's role in this show as nothing else but Watchtower + the Watchtower set

= Smallville becoming focused on the JLA instead of being a show about Superman

One would have to ask what else will the female lead be doing every episode if they don't do this.

This goes against my key points for a successful season 9:

http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4913765&postcount=14

Jimmy isn't dead...Henry is.

that is a very important part of theory and recommendations. They cleared up a huge problem i had by killing Henry (jimmy). His age and personality was way off base to the Jimmy we know from other shows, movies and comics, and by making him "henry" and his little brother the real "jimmy" is quite a creative way of fixing it.

knowing this simple fact makes for a hole in the foundation for your proposal.

Additionally, to state that Chloe will ONLY be watchtower and the lead female in 9 is pretty brave, and naive. Its taking liberties that no viewer should take when they are trying to conceive the next steps taken. Of course, your opinion is yours, and you have a right to express it...but to state it likes its fact and write about it as much as you do is far more than expressing an idea...its borderline propaganda.

Considering Lois' growth thus far, I'd say she has the inside track for the lead spot. Be it far from me to know for sure...as this show has surprised me more than once. I'm not the kind of person to "soap box" my views though...so I'll leave this post where it is.

----- Added 5 Minutes later -----

Jimmy's death + Chloe's survival + Chloe as the female lead in Season 9 + Chloe's role in this show as nothing else but Watchtower + the Watchtower set

= Smallville becoming focused on the JLA instead of being a show about Superman

One would have to ask what else will the female lead be doing every episode if they don't do this.

This goes against my key points for a successful season 9:

http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4913765&postcount=14

Clearly, if the writers decided to do what they did..."kill Henry (Jimmy), keep Chloe around, develop here role as watchtower, make a watchtower set, etc... than its pretty clear that they have their direction already and there is no changing that.

I'm just surprised that you've spent the amount of time you have on thinking about, laying out, and posting such dissolute ideas for season 9 on these forums...it really does confuse me.

You said it exactly right..."this goes against my key points for a successful season 9. So, someone is wrong...is it you, or is it the people that are paid to do this for a living?

xrayvision

06-07-2009, 07:17 PM

First of all, there is no Henry, not for me anyway. I won't have my intelligence insulted by such a farce. I've read Superman comics & have plenty in my collection, and trust me when I say this that Jimmy's age or personality is far from being the most important thing that doesn't match the comics. If you want to look at things, let's do so:

Clark Kent: THE CLARK KENT/SUPERMAN in the comics is nothing like the Clark on this show. Nothing. He doesn't blame himself for everything & certainly isn't a doormat for everyone. He is inspired by the good he sees in people & relies on himself not other characters to save people. He has no hacking buddy he goes to before he can act on his own. The Clark Kent this show started with was very much like his comic book counterpart. He met people like Kyle Tippet in his travels & helped them. Clark for the last several seasons doesn't even have travels where he meets people anymore. He goes to Chloe who points out people who need help. That's not Superman. The real Clark did not let Jonathan die for his desire to be with Lana Lang. He also did not turn his back towards people who needed his help like he did with Lionel just before Lex killed him. The real Clark traveled the world, helping people all on his own, BECAUSE HE WANTED TO. The real Clark did not have to be guilted into saving people.

Lana: Lana Lang did not marry Lex Luthor to get back at Clark for dumping her. The real Clark never dumped the real Lana since they never really were an item to the extent they have been on this show. She did not put on some alien suit to become a superhero, though stories of a superpowered Lana do exist over the years (which have been retconned by several stories). She also did not try to kill Lex and kidnap people and steal $10 million. She is not the object of everyone's desires in the comics.

Lex: The real Lex Luthor was never pathetic enough to be swayed by the likes of a coffee serving ex cheerleader. He is incredibly intelligent & very dangerous, while being a great businessman. We saw some of qualities in Smallville's Lex, but he was compromised too much by his pursuit of Lana---something he would never waste his time with in the comics. The real Lex was certainly not killed off (his brain was transplanted in the body of a clone before his original body died of cancer from wearing the ring---something that happened years later way after Clark was Superman).

Chloe: She doesn't even exist, so why she's still around this late in the game is beyond me.

Lois: The real Lois Lane did not meet Clark until Clark was already Superman & established as a reporter. She did not meet him in highschool & know of his heroics before he became Superman. She didn't know him before he started sporting his glasses. She has no cousin named Chloe Sullivan.

There are many other things, such as villians who fought Clark in this show who comic book counterparts didn't fight Clark until he was already Superman. These include Zod, Brainiac, Doomsday & others.

So as you can see, NONE of these characters have their comic book personalities. Not a single one of them. If we're going to start playing games like screwing around with characters' middle names because they're not like their comicbook counterpart, then lets not be selective. Let's kill off Lucy Lane, because in the comics, she was Jimmy's age and dated him. Let's kill off Lois or make her lose all her memories prior to season 9 so she doesn't know Clark. Let's kill off Lana since she doesn't have red hair and is the character who is furthest from her comic book counterpart. Pete Ross in this show is not white like his comics counterpart, so I guess that creates a problem for PS3 as well--they should have to kill him off by their "great" logic. Let's kill Clark off since this Clark is a lazy, tragic hero & Clark Kent/Superman of the comics is the antithesis of a tragic hero & became Superman out of faith in humanity & positive self-motivation.

If killing Jimmy off was done because he doesn't match his comics counterpart, then PS3 have serious priority issues. There are MANY more things that have to be fixed before Jimmy's age or personality.

My main point is that this show took too many freedoms & should leave itself as-is. I & many others would have been happy like that. But guess what, they will leave most of the other stuff changed. You know why? Because killing Jimmy had nothing to do with an age difference. They may have given that as their reason, but it wasn't. Because if they're so hell-bent on aligning their characters to their comics characters, they will have to memory-wipe, retcon, and lightswitch every single character and doing that would be the death of the show. Killing Jimmy was done for budgetary reasons, nothing else. They didn't want to kill Chloe or Tess off, so they took something, turned it into a complaint (any complaints about Jimmy faded long ago after we saw how good AA's Jimmy was this season especially), and justified killing Jimmy off by solving a nonexistent complaint that had long since faded. And my guess is that Jimmy will be replaced by a JLA character who will be a regular.

EDIT: One more thing. PS are blaming DC for killing Jimmy off. This is the same company that allowed Lois Lane to be married to another man while having Superman's illegitimate son in Superman Returns. If they allowed that, I don't have a doubt in my mind they would allow Jimmy to stay the way he was. Again, this was clearly not DC's decision. DC is a responsible company that would have nixed the idea of a Jimmy the same age as Clark (just like they put so many other restrictions on this show) from the beginning rather than allowing it & then retconning it. DC is just the scapegoat so PS can now hide their shameful faces.

----- Added 9 Minutes later -----

You said it exactly right..."this goes against my key points for a successful season 9. So, someone is wrong...is it you, or is it the people that are paid to do this for a living?

I'd say it's the people who are paid to do it for a living. Because they're doing a piss-poor job at it. My key points would make season 9 like a more up-to-date version of season 3, which was the best-written season. It would evolve the show to where a show about Clark becoming Superman should be. It would progress his career, his identity & all aspects of his character. It would even allow a much better plot for Chloe that has nothing to do with the Justice League. It would allow Lois to take a major step up, which she should have done by now (12 episodes for Lois vs. 22 for Chloe should not have happened in season 8). It would give us Intergang--a set of villians who would bring back the mob/thug like plots that made season 3 so interesting, believable & doable. Intergang would also be very writable (you can have Clark interact with & fight Intergang much more easily than Doomsday) & wouldn't be a burden on the budget like other villians. Most importantly, it would keep this show about Superman & core Superman characters & the Daily Planet instead of Justice League characters. After all, Superman movies & live action TV series have been much more successful than Justice League movies or live action TV series (which do not exist).

Dosvse

06-07-2009, 08:12 PM

First of all, there is no Henry, not for me anyway. I won't have my intelligence insulted by such a farce. I've read Superman comics & have plenty in my collection, and trust me when I say this that Jimmy's age or personality is far from being the most important thing that doesn't match the comics. If you want to look at things, let's do so:

Clark Kent: THE CLARK KENT/SUPERMAN in the comics is nothing like the Clark on this show. Nothing. He doesn't blame himself for everything & certainly isn't a doormat for everyone. He is inspired by the good he sees in people & relies on himself not other characters to save people. He has no hacking buddy he goes to before he can act on his own. The Clark Kent this show started with was very much like his comic book counterpart. He met people like Kyle Tippet in his travels & helped them. Clark for the last several seasons doesn't even have travels where he meets people anymore. He goes to Chloe who points out people who need help. That's not Superman. The real Clark did not let Jonathan die for his desire to be with Lana Lang. He also did not turn his back towards people who needed his help like he did with Lionel just before Lex killed him. The real Clark traveled the world, helping people all on his own, BECAUSE HE WANTED TO. The real Clark did not have to be guilted into saving people.

Lana: Lana Lang did not marry Lex Luthor to get back at Clark for dumping her. The real Clark never dumped the real Lana since they never really were an item to the extent they have been on this show. She did not put on some alien suit to become a superhero, though stories of a superpowered Lana do exist over the years (which have been retconned by several stories). She also did not try to kill Lex and kidnap people and steal $10 million. She is not the object of everyone's desires in the comics.

Lex: The real Lex Luthor was never pathetic enough to be swayed by the likes of a coffee serving ex cheerleader. He is incredibly intelligent & very dangerous, while being a great businessman. We saw some of qualities in Smallville's Lex, but he was compromised too much by his pursuit of Lana---something he would never waste his time with in the comics. The real Lex was certainly not killed off (his brain was transplanted in the body of a clone before his original body died of cancer from wearing the ring---something that happened years later way after Clark was Superman).

Chloe: She doesn't even exist, so why she's still around this late in the game is beyond me.

Lois: The real Lois Lane did not meet Clark until Clark was already Superman & established as a reporter. She did not meet him in highschool & know of his heroics before he became Superman. She didn't know him before he started sporting his glasses. She has no cousin named Chloe Sullivan.

There are many other things, such as villians who fought Clark in this show who comic book counterparts didn't fight Clark until he was already Superman. These include Zod, Brainiac, Doomsday & others.

So as you can see, NONE of these characters have their comic book personalities. Not a single one of them. If we're going to start playing games like screwing around with characters' middle names because they're not like their comicbook counterpart, then lets not be selective. Let's kill off Lucy Lane, because in the comics, she was Jimmy's age and dated him. Let's kill off Lois or make her lose all her memories prior to season 9 so she doesn't know Clark. Let's kill off Lana since she doesn't have red hair and is the character who is furthest from her comic book counterpart. Pete Ross in this show is not white like his comics counterpart, so I guess that creates a problem for PS3 as well--they should have to kill him off by their "great" logic. Let's kill Clark off since this Clark is a lazy, tragic hero & Clark Kent/Superman of the comics is the antithesis of a tragic hero & became Superman out of faith in humanity & positive self-motivation.

If killing Jimmy off was done because he doesn't match his comics counterpart, then PS3 have serious priority issues. There are MANY more things that have to be fixed before Jimmy's age or personality.

My main point is that this show took too many freedoms & should leave itself as-is. I & many others would have been happy like that. But guess what, they will leave most of the other stuff changed. You know why? Because killing Jimmy had nothing to do with an age difference. They may have given that as their reason, but it wasn't. Because if they're so hell-bent on aligning their characters to their comics characters, they will have to memory-wipe, retcon, and lightswitch every single character and doing that would be the death of the show. Killing Jimmy was done for budgetary reasons, nothing else. They didn't want to kill Chloe or Tess off, so they took something, turned it into a complaint (any complaints about Jimmy faded long ago after we saw how good AA's Jimmy was this season especially), and justified killing Jimmy off by solving a nonexistent complaint that had long since faded. And my guess is that Jimmy will be replaced by a JLA character who will be a regular.

EDIT: One more thing. PS are blaming DC for killing Jimmy off. This is the same company that allowed Lois Lane to be married to another man while having Superman's illegitimate son in Superman Returns. If they allowed that, I don't have a doubt in my mind they would allow Jimmy to stay the way he was. Again, this was clearly not DC's decision. DC is a responsible company that would have nixed the idea of a Jimmy the same age as Clark (just like they put so many other restrictions on this show) from the beginning rather than allowing it & then retconning it. DC is just the scapegoat so PS can now hide their shameful faces.

----- Added 9 Minutes later -----

I'd say it's the people who are paid to do it for a living. Because they're doing a piss-poor job at it. My key points would make season 9 like a more up-to-date version of season 3, which was the best-written season. It would evolve the show to where a show about Clark becoming Superman should be. It would progress his career, his identity & all aspects of his character. It would even allow a much better plot for Chloe that has nothing to do with the Justice League. It would allow Lois to take a major step up, which she should have done by now (12 episodes for Lois vs. 22 for Chloe should not have happened in season 8). It would give us Intergang--a set of villians who would bring back the mob/thug like plots that made season 3 so interesting, believable & doable. Intergang would also be very writable (you can have Clark interact with & fight Intergang much more easily than Doomsday) & wouldn't be a burden on the budget like other villians. Most importantly, it would keep this show about Superman & core Superman characters & the Daily Planet instead of Justice League characters. After all, Superman movies & live action TV series have been much more successful than Justice League movies or live action TV series (which do not exist).

Quit beating around the bush, tell us what you really think. :D

ryan-el

06-07-2009, 09:41 PM

First of all, there is no Henry, not for me anyway.
I won't have my intelligence insulted by such a farce.

if its intelligence you want to defend, than i would recommend facing the fact that the show clearly killed off what they exposed as "Henry Olsen". facing this fact will get you further than any self indulgent statement like this one.

I've read Superman comics & have plenty in my collection, and trust me when I say this that Jimmy's age or personality is far from being the most important thing that doesn't match the comics. If you want to look at things, let's do so:

i don't recall asking to "look at things", nor did i state any priority list of Smallville's transgressions against Superman Mythology.

Clark Kent: blah, blah, blah (see above post for details)

Lana: blah, blab, blah (see above post for details)

Lex: blah, blah, blah (see above post for details)

Chloe: blah, blah, blah (see above post for details)

Lois: blah, blah, blah (see above post for details)

So as you can see, NONE of these characters have their comic book personalities. Not a single one of them. If we're going to start playing games like screwing around with characters' middle names because they're not like their comicbook counterpart, then lets not be selective

OK...so, apparently we are playing "games" now. didn't catch that till now. my bad.

Clearly you have a problem with the way they have developed the entire show...*whatever*.

...Killing Jimmy was done for budgetary reasons, nothing else...

i never once stated that i know WHY they killed him off...but rather that they killed off Henry Olsen, not Jimmy Olsen. I did state that i agreed with and appreciated their way of fixing it. For whatever reason they had, they did it, and covered their tracks by adding the "little brother" factor.

[B]EDIT: One more thing. PS are blaming DC for killing Jimmy off. This is the same company that allowed Lois Lane to be married to another man while having Superman's illegitimate son in Superman Returns. If they allowed that, I don't have a doubt in my mind they would allow Jimmy to stay the way he was. Again, this was clearly not DC's decision.

nothing makes your point stronger like reverting to calling someone a liar.

My main point is that this show took too many freedoms & should leave itself as-is. I & many others would have been happy like that.

this is the best thing your whole post had to say.

But guess what, they will leave most of the other stuff changed.

So why go through all the trouble of making up a movie and 4 seasons of a show when you know they won't do it...

its all bread crumbs leaving me more and more mystified about why you waste your time so much.

I'd say it's the people who are paid to do it for a living. Because they're doing a piss-poor job at it.

confidence goes a long way these days...but not far enough to convince me that you would do a better job writing for Smallville.

My key points would make season 9 like a more up-to-date version of season 3, which was the best-written season.

all this time complaining about the creative liberties that Smallville has taken and you claim that season 3 was the best written...PLEASE. Talk about sporadic thought process.

Its clear to me that i struck a cord on my last post. the proverbial "red button" has been pushed, and I'll say, it really was "accidental". my apologies.

None the less, do not assume for one second that you need school me on superman legend or mythology. additionally, if you want to explain your point to me in debate about who's right and who's wrong, i would suggest more intelligent vernacular than what you just spit at me. not very attractive xray. sorry.

daxam77

06-07-2009, 11:13 PM

... DC ...This is the same company that allowed Lois Lane to be married to another man while having Superman's illegitimate son in Superman Returns. If they allowed that...

It was actually worse than that. She and Richard White were not married; they were only living together.

Also, she couldn't even have remembered that she'd had sex with Superman, since he removed her memories with the super-kiss so imagine yourself waking up one day pregnant and not remembering how you could have possibly gotten that way! I think most people who saw the film didn't even realize that she didn't know the child was Superman's until Lex put the thought in her mind and then the boy moved that piano!

Kneel before Zod

06-08-2009, 07:50 AM

That had to be Clark's ghost talking to Chloe. I think he died.
Keep in mind, that this is Smallville, and not Supernatural we're talking about. In Supernatural, when someone says they're dead, it's literal. Clark's death was metaphorical. Honestly, I think that the metaphorical death has more potential than an actual death.

Krypto_marcus

06-08-2009, 10:06 AM

^Agreed.

xrayvision

06-08-2009, 12:29 PM

if its intelligence you want to defend, than i would recommend facing the fact that the show clearly killed off what they exposed as "Henry Olsen". facing this fact will get you further than any self indulgent statement like this one.

i don't recall asking to "look at things", nor did i state any priority list of Smallville's transgressions against Superman Mythology.

OK...so, apparently we are playing "games" now. didn't catch that till now. my bad.

Clearly you have a problem with the way they have developed the entire show...*whatever*.

i never once stated that i know WHY they killed him off...but rather that they killed off Henry Olsen, not Jimmy Olsen. I did state that i agreed with and appreciated their way of fixing it. For whatever reason they had, they did it, and covered their tracks by adding the "little brother" factor.

nothing makes your point stronger like reverting to calling someone a liar.

this is the best thing your whole post had to say.

So why go through all the trouble of making up a movie and 4 seasons of a show when you know they won't do it...

its all bread crumbs leaving me more and more mystified about why you waste your time so much.

confidence goes a long way these days...but not far enough to convince me that you would do a better job writing for Smallville.

all this time complaining about the creative liberties that Smallville has taken and you claim that season 3 was the best written...PLEASE. Talk about sporadic thought process.

Its clear to me that i struck a cord on my last post. the proverbial "red button" has been pushed, and I'll say, it really was "accidental". my apologies.

None the less, do not assume for one second that you need school me on superman legend or mythology. additionally, if you want to explain your point to me in debate about who's right and who's wrong, i would suggest more intelligent vernacular than what you just spit at me. not very attractive xray. sorry.

Well, I'm not going to waste my time then. If you actually think that having a character for 3 years, having a special on the season 7 DVD set lining him up with other movie & TV versions of the same character played by other actors, killing him off, and then saying that the real character is his little brother who will take his first name and job as some sort of homage to him is good writing, then I won't try to convince you any more. Nothing was more pathetic than doing what they did. This is the "Chlois" theory applied to the Jimmy Olsen character. They laughed at the notion of Lois dying & Chloe taking her name, but did exactly that with Jimmy. If this is covering their tracks, it's some of the worst kind of track-covering done. Like I said, there was no track covering needed. They should have just left Jimmy & should leave everyone else as-is.

All my points that you reduced to "blah blah blah" in your quote were to show that Jimmy's character isn't the only thing different from the comics. Every one of those characters are nothing like their comics counterparts. Yet, out of everyone, they feel like Jimmy is the one who needs to be fixed. You referred to what they did with him as covering their tracks. By the same regard based on my points, they should be covering their tracks with Clark, Lex, Lana, Lois, Chloe, etc to correct the inconsistencies between them & their comicbook counterparts (for those who actually exist in the comics). Whether or not you want to admit it, they're being selective. And my point is they won't go any further by covering their tracks with other characters because it would make the show unwatchable. It would nix everything prior to season 9. This selective "mythos alignment" is precisely why I believe Jimmy was singled out. If they were in mythos alignment mode, they would fix every character.

So if you're in such agreement that Jimmy's age being a transgression against the mythology in the comics, then take a look at the bigger picture, because that's the tip of the proverbial iceberg. If you don't want to acknowledge that the very personality of Clark Kent, the central character of this show, is nothing like his mythos counterpart and this difference is far more significant than any difference in the Jimmy Olsen character, then I really shouldn't be trying to debate with you, as there is no point. Whether you like it or not, it's true that most of these characters are nothing like their counterparts. I'm just seeing the entire forest & not one particular tree. And I'm not even saying to change anything. I say they should have left it alone since it was too late to change it.

My main points are:

1. If Jimmy Olsen out of all characters, needs to be killed off for this very reason PS3 gave for killing him off, then the rest of the characters by their own argument should receive similar treatment. I'm using their argument to show how selective they're being. In my opinion, everyone should be left as-is. This is an Elseworlds version of Superman. Too many characters have origins that are too different, and most of the characters who actually exist in the comics have a totally different personality (Clark, Lex, Pete, Lana, and Jimmy).

2. The fact that giving the rest of the characters the same treatment will piss too many viewers off and kill the show is why they would most likely not give the rest of the characters the same treatment. My opinion is that they have no plans to do this for this very reason. Or if they do, it will be in the last episode or 2 when complaints will fall on deaf ears.

The only reason I did that four Season 9 episode/Pre-Season 9 layout is because I still want this show to succeed. I want to show that it could still be fixed. I know you said that the powers that be don't think it needs to be fixed, but the viewers think otherwise. Heck, even the actors (Aaron Ashmore, Sam Witwer, and a few others) voiced negative opinions of the finale. The ratings have been horrible, and this is before the Friday night move. I am not a writer, but I, like many others here, can judge writing that is good/decent and writing that is pathetic or laughable.

And I'm not calling them liars. In time we'll see if they will prove themselves to be liars. My opinion is that they will. By liars, I mean being selective with Jimmy and killing him off while not correcting the more serious flaws of the other characters through similar deaths, retcons or memory wipes.

----- Added 18 Minutes later -----

Keep in mind, that this is Smallville, and not Supernatural we're talking about. In Supernatural, when someone says they're dead, it's literal. Clark's death was metaphorical. Honestly, I think that the metaphorical death has more potential than an actual death.

I still want to believe that Davis' death was metaphorical, just to avoid another plothole. We know that all vessels possessed by phantoms in this show were & had to be alive. We have never seen a phantom possessing a dead phantom. If that is indeed Zod at the end, which looks to be the case based on the Zod symbol, then I'd have to think that his phantom took over Davis' living body. Davis was his son, who according to Faora (his mother) was his spitting image. Davis was also Kryptonian. I know we didn't see Davis using too many Kryptonian powers, and I think it's because of Doomsday's presence in his body (probably consuming his solar energy just to keep him within). I think once Doomsday was split from Davis, he finally was able to start building up his solar reserves. Doomsday did something to him since he was looking at him one moment & was unconscious the next moment when Clark found him & the others. So I hope they explain it that like Raya, he recovered from his impaling once he was exposed to enough solar radiation and was controlled by the orb & summoned to the mansion where he was taken over forever by Zod & metaphorically died (or ceased to exist, since Zod consumed him).

Not only would this avoid plotholes, but it would show that Davis was the real Traveler. This would fix a lot of things. The Traveler was foretold by Veritas to come. The Traveler is not (necessarily) Naman. Naman is the being who was foretold by the Kawatche to come to Earth & be a savior. We know Clark is Naman. But I think Veritas erroneously thought Clark was the Traveler because of Jor-El's message that Swann intercepted. I think the Traveler was originally deemed a threat. Edward Teague in Quest talked about 2 interpretations of the Traveler. I think the savior interpretation started with Swann (thanks to Jor-El's message) & that the Traveler was always considered a threat by the founding member of Veritas (Gertrude). Because after all, Gertrude did speak to Zod in the 1600's according to Justice & Doom. And who is more fitting to be the Traveler than the son of the very person whose contact with Gertrude led to the beginning of Veritas.

I think this would be the best explanation because it would explain everything and Clark actually being dead & coming back to his former values while also finally embracing his alien heritage would much more interesting.

I posted a theory about this:

http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128291

ryan-el

06-08-2009, 02:15 PM

Well, I'm not going to waste my time then.

clearly you didn't mean this statement, as it is followed with yet another over done post to explain why you feel what you do, and why its right and the producers are wrong...etc...

why start a post with this statement and then continue on "wasting your time"

If you actually think that having a character for 3 years, having a special on the season 7 DVD set lining him up with other movie & TV versions of the same character played by other actors, killing him off, and then saying that the real character is his little brother who will take his first name and job as some sort of homage to him is good writing

i never said i agreed with his killing. rather, that i thought i fixed a problem in the show (one of the many that you have along side me). For whatever reason they killed him off, its done...

when they killed him it was clear that they had to do something because how can you kill "Jimmy Olsen". Its just too far off legend. By adding the "little brother" and the "henry" into the mix, it fixed this problem, and hence, i think it good writing.

then I won't try to convince you any more.

could have fooled me...looks to me like most of your post was spent trying to convince me.

Nothing was more pathetic than doing what they did. This is the "Chlois" theory applied to the Jimmy Olsen character. They laughed at the notion of Lois dying & Chloe taking her name, but did exactly that with Jimmy.

no they didn't. you see, Henry's little brother wasn't a preexisting Smallville character. Comparing these two ideas as similar is mindlessly ridiculous.

Every one of those characters are nothing like their comics counterparts. Yet, out of everyone, they feel like Jimmy is the one who needs to be fixed.

quite being so hard headed about this and look at it from a simpler view. Jimmy died...that is the problem that needed fixing. His characters age and personality in line with mythology isn't a issue to most (although it was to me, and you, in addition to many other liberties with ALL other characters that i would have not taken) and probably wasn't a factor in the decision to kill his character.

Fact is, he died, and they didn't want to leave a character as central as "Jimmy Olsen" dead...so they "fixed" the issue with the addition of the Henry/Little Brother twist.

Whether or not you want to admit it, they're being selective.

of course THEY are being selective. they have to. Its a TV show. there is money to be made. creative selectivity is necessary.

If you don't want to acknowledge that the very personality of Clark Kent, the central character of this show, is nothing like his mythos counterpart and this difference is far more significant than any difference in the Jimmy Olsen character, then I really shouldn't be trying to debate with you, as there is no point. Whether you like it or not, it's true that most of these characters are nothing like their counterparts.

putting words in my mouth, are we???

i agree, they are way off of Superman Legend, but isn't that the point. It was suppose to be and is a "retelling".

I know you said that the powers that be don't think it needs to be fixed, but the viewers think otherwise.

have you spoken with all 3.5 million viewers? held a poll against any reasonable amount of them to determine this idea that you base your entire stance on? A few people in agreement on kryptonsite is no where near "the viewers". The online followers are nothing in number compared to the everyday watcher.

You should speak for yourself and not everyone else.

Heck, even the actors (Aaron Ashmore, Sam Witwer, and a few others) voiced negative opinions of the finale.

of course. the two characters that the writers killed off didn't like the outcome. not sure i would either if i were them.

can you quote a source here...give evidence of your claims...list the "few others" that you state were so distraught over the writing?

And I'm not calling them liars. In time we'll see if they will prove themselves to be liars. My opinion is that they will. By liars, I mean being selective with Jimmy and killing him off while not correcting the more serious flaws of the other characters through similar deaths, retcons or memory wipes.

have you ever considered the fact that when you say a person lied, its calling them a liar. or by claiming that proof will rise that a person lied is also...calling them a liar. or maybe that the definition of Liar isn't "being selective".

Your logic seems to get worse as we go on, Xray.

Seems more like the expression of a person that would claim God wrote the bible, and we know God wrote it because the Bible says so...and the bible is true because its infaliable, and its infaliable because God wrote it...

doesn't make sense does it?!?! - its just one big circle of misguided logic.

You never struck me that way to begin with...i must have been wrong

I still want to believe that Davis' death was metaphorical, just to avoid another plothole. We know that all vessels possessed by phantoms in this show were & had to be alive. We have never seen a phantom possessing a dead phantom. If that is indeed Zod at the end, which looks to be the case based on the Zod symbol, then I'd have to think that his phantom took over Davis' living body. Davis was his son, who according to Faora (his mother) was his spitting image. Davis was also Kryptonian. I know we didn't see Davis using too many Kryptonian powers, and I think it's because of Doomsday's presence in his body (probably consuming his solar energy just to keep him within). I think once Doomsday was split from Davis, he finally was able to start building up his solar reserves. Doomsday did something to him since he was looking at him one moment & was unconscious the next moment when Clark found him & the others. So I hope they explain it that like Raya, he recovered from his impaling once he was exposed to enough solar radiation and was controlled by the orb & summoned to the mansion where he was taken over forever by Zod & metaphorically died (or ceased to exist, since Zod consumed him).

Not only would this avoid plotholes, but it would show that Davis was the real Traveler. This would fix a lot of things. The Traveler was foretold by Veritas to come. The Traveler is not (necessarily) Naman. Naman is the being who was foretold by the Kawatche to come to Earth & be a savior. We know Clark is Naman. But I think Veritas erroneously thought Clark was the Traveler because of Jor-El's message that Swann intercepted. I think the Traveler was originally deemed a threat. Edward Teague in Quest talked about 2 interpretations of the Traveler. I think the savior interpretation started with Swann (thanks to Jor-El's message) & that the Traveler was always considered a threat by the founding member of Veritas (Gertrude). Because after all, Gertrude did speak to Zod in the 1600's according to Justice & Doom. And who is more fitting to be the Traveler than the son of the very person whose contact with Gertrude led to the beginning of Veritas.

you just spent all that time talking about Davis Bloom/Doomsday and Zod when the original statement was about CLARK.

Come on!!!

xrayvision

06-08-2009, 05:46 PM

clearly you didn't mean this statement, as it is followed with yet another over done post to explain why you feel what you do, and why its right and the producers are wrong...etc...

why start a post with this statement and then continue on "wasting your time"

I do feel like I'm wasting my time. That only parts of my arguments are being looked at while the parts that don't fit what you're trying to prove are ignored.

i never said i agreed with his killing. rather, that i thought i fixed a problem in the show (one of the many that you have along side me). For whatever reason they killed him off, its done...

Well, OK. But it doesn't fix anything. In fact, it creates another problem. Right now, they will need to have a 10 year time lapse before this Clark becomes Superman. 10 years. Why? Because Jimmy Olsen is supposed to be an employee at the Daily Planet when Clark first becomes Superman & joins the Daily Planet. Will they do this? Who knows? But to think that this Clark is still another 10 years from becoming Superman is all messed up. In the comics, Clark traveled the world for years saving people before he got a job at the Daily Planet or became Superman. The way things have been set up now if they don't do a 10 year time lapse, they will have a kid Jimmy Olsen in school being a fan of Superman/the RBB for years and then join the Daily Planet in another 10-15 years. This means without such a time lapse, there will be at least a decade before Clark and/or Lois have the legendary photographer taking photos for their articles. Unlike the comics, Jimmy won't be a Daily Planet employee at the time Clark becomes Superman. We also have a Lucy Lane who is at least 10 years older than Jimmy, when in the comics, they were about the same age.

when they killed him it was clear that they had to do something because how can you kill "Jimmy Olsen". Its just too far off legend. By adding the "little brother" and the "henry" into the mix, it fixed this problem, and hence, i think it good writing.

So based on what I read, we're in agreement that killing him off to cause this problem to begin with was a bad idea. That's fine. But as for good writing, I disagree. It's a solution, but a pathetic one at that. A solution doesn't equate to good writing. I look at this as a horribly written solution that no self-respecting writer would have done after creating a problem that didn't have to be created. If they really wanted to create a solution to the age difference, why not have Jimmy be the one who has the ring go on his finger to disappear for 10 years instead of Lois? That way he could appear 10 years into the future at the same age. Even this is unnecessary. They should have left him as-is.

could have fooled me...looks to me like most of your post was spent trying to convince me.

This is my last attempt.

no they didn't. you see, Henry's little brother wasn't a preexisting Smallville character. Comparing these two ideas as similar is mindlessly ridiculous.

It's not ridiculous. Because that's the only thing seperating what they did to Jimmy vs. the Chlois theory. The Jimmy thing is an out-of-the-blue version of the Chlois theory. The only difference is that Chloe was already Smallville character and meant to be the early seasons' version of Lois, allowing the Chlois theory (as much as I disagree with it) to have been foreseen. A similar theory about Jimmy was impossible since Jimmy's little brother wasn't a character. It's really not mindlessly ridiculous.

quite being so hard headed about this and look at it from a simpler view. Jimmy died...that is the problem that needed fixing. His characters age and personality in line with mythology isn't a issue to most (although it was to me, and you, in addition to many other liberties with ALL other characters that i would have not taken) and probably wasn't a factor in the decision to kill his character.

Fact is, he died, and they didn't want to leave a character as central as "Jimmy Olsen" dead...so they "fixed" the issue with the addition of the Henry/Little Brother twist.

OK, I can agree to that. But, like I pointed out above, they created yet another problem, another mis-alignment of the mythos, by doing what they did (see my 10 year lapse point).

of course THEY are being selective. they have to. Its a TV show. there is money to be made. creative selectivity is necessary.

This is one thing they didn't have to be selective with. Their selectivity was insulting here. Very insulting. If the opinions on Kryptonsite here are reflective of the viewers as a whole, then many other fans who don't post here were also insulted by this. It is very bad to render plots of previous seasons useless. I would think it would hurt DVD sales or better yet sales of single episode downloads from internet sites that sell them. Why would someone want to watch Jimmy's past episodes now, knowing that he's not going to be around when Superman is around? I personally feel the same way with what they did to Lana's character when watching past episodes/scenes with her.

A well-written show doesn't have to be selective. It doesn't have to decide on what established facts should be negated and which ones should be kept. Smallville was once that show. What I don't understand is how you (like me) think that killing him off was a bad idea to begin with, but how you think their selectivity is a good thing, especially when it has been so offensive to viewers who post on this site, TWOP, tv.com, and so many other sites.

putting words in my mouth, are we???

i agree, they are way off of Superman Legend, but isn't that the point. It was suppose to be and is a "retelling".

Not putting words in your mouth. I was/am just confused about how you can be supportive of their selectivity when like me, you thought killing him off was a bad idea.

have you spoken with all 3.5 million viewers? held a poll against any reasonable amount of them to determine this idea that you base your entire stance on? A few people in agreement on kryptonsite is no where near "the viewers". The online followers are nothing in number compared to the everyday watcher.

You should speak for yourself and not everyone else.

No, but I have to take the opinions on sites like Kryptonsite, TWOP, tv.com, supermanhomepage, and others as a sample of the overall viewers. You have to, otherwise there is no way to do anything. It's impossible to poll everyone. They don't even do that in government elections. They poll a sample instead. I took the sample as what the majority of fans on the sites I mentioned thought.

of course. the two characters that the writers killed off didn't like the outcome. not sure i would either if i were them.

I'm not sure if Sam is gone, because if Zod is the main season 9 enemy, then he will be back.

can you quote a source here...give evidence of your claims...list the "few others" that you state were so distraught over the writing?

I read links that were posted by users here shortly after Doomsday aired. I don't remember those links.

have you ever considered the fact that when you say a person lied, its calling them a liar. or by claiming that proof will rise that a person lied is also...calling them a liar. or maybe that the definition of Liar isn't "being selective".

I think they're lying because they said DC mandated that Jimmy die. From the past, DC never had such control over this show. They set restrictions on this show from the start, like they did with Bruce Wayne, Clark wearing the S on his chest, and several other things. Now, they're saying that DC all of a sudden is getting involved and is overseeing them. If this is true, why wasn't there a consistent DC presence in this show? After Jeph Loeb left, there has been nobody from DC, except for Geoff Johns who wrote 1 episode (Legion). Their immediate blame on DC Comics is at the very least suspicious. It doesn't fit anything over the past 8 years. Nothing. DC has not one time ever stepped in after allowing a character to be on the show. Instead, DC has placed restrictions on characters before they were allowed on the show. This is what they did with Lois Lane. They put various restrictions on her in season 4 due to the Superman Returns movie that were lifted after the movie was released. DC Comics is a responsible company. If given a choice between choosing to believe DC Comics or Souders/Peterson, I would choose DC anyday. Sure they made some blunders themselves in the past since they're not perfect, but at least they took the blame for their own mistakes. I'm very suspicious of the notion that DC would be selective out of all things Jimmy's age and then for the first time in the show's history, would choose to step into the show when their only control in the past had been through restrictions placed, where the showrunners themselves had free reign to work around those restrictions. When someone (Peterson/Souders) comes along claiming otherwise, I'm sorry, but I just don't believe them.

Your logic seems to get worse as we go on, Xray.

Really? I don't think that's the case. But to each his own.

Seems more like the expression of a person that would claim God wrote the bible, and we know God wrote it because the Bible says so...and the bible is true because its infaliable, and its infaliable because God wrote it...

doesn't make sense does it?!?! - its just one big circle of misguided logic.

I don't understand how any of this has anything to do with the Bible.

You never struck me that way to begin with...i must have been wrong

Well, I don't know what to say. I give very honest breakdowns of what I see. I'm not a shipper, but when I see a character like Jimmy having injustice done to them, I get pretty vocal. I was supportive of characters I did not once like. I am no longer supportive of other characters that I once liked. I've watched this show since the first season and got hooked to it in the 2nd season. I've seen great reactions to the show's central character at times and bad reactions to him other times. I've seen common recommendations after several season finales for the following season & usually see the same recommendations year after year after being unresolved or no effort placed to enacting them. I have been supportive when I see something good, and unsupportive when I see something bad. I was in favor of the way things were being handled in the first half of season 8. I thought I would have rated this season better than seasons 4-7. But one thing I won't do is agree to any lame-brained plot these showrunners give us. I loved the first 3 seasons of the show. Since the ending of the 3rd season, I thought the show failed to deliver a payoff that I was waiting for. I'm not the only one either. Another fellow user here, vyperman7, has made several eloquent posts here making the same points. In season 4, it was the stones plot that I had high expectations that had no payoff for me and a disappointing ending. From season 5 onward it was Clark & their treatment of his character (the obsession with Lana, the inability to get his training done, the failure of having him go back to college, the failure of him to get a job which finally was fixed after a season 8 lightswitch, and various other things about his character, Lex's character, and characters like Lois, Jimmy, and others who deserved longer screen minutes). This is where I'm coming from. Like I said, I've been a DC (and Marvel) fan for decades. When I see them being turned into a scapegoat for creative control practices they've never exhibited on this show, I choose not to believe the people pointing the finger. The same people who have 0 experience except for this show in writing comic book characters. The sucky part is that there are other writers who also never wrote a comic book character, but they didn't make the mistakes these 2 made---mainly because these 2 who wrote Doomsday also control the show.

you just spent all that time talking about Davis Bloom/Doomsday and Zod when the original statement was about CLARK.

Come on!!!

Nope. :)

I was just answering Kneel before Zod's post. And I also referred to the thread that talks about my theory so it doesn't get too off topic. Besides, I think this thread is related to the other thread because the spoilers said 2 deaths & a metaphorical death. When I started this thread, the main resistance I got was that Clark Kent's death was metaphorical death and that he survived the episode while Jimmy's & Davis' deaths were the actual deaths. That thread I referred/linked to in my response to Kneel before Zod is a theory that explains how Davis' death could be interpreted as the metaphorical death, making it possible that Clark really did die in Doomsday.

Exedore

06-08-2009, 07:05 PM

xrayvision

06-08-2009, 08:13 PM

Killing Jimmy off was a bad decision to begin with. If they wanted to let go of AA due to budget issues then it would have been better to let Jimmy leave Metropolis for the time being, hinting towards his eventual return. He went through both physical and emotional trauma and lost his marriage. He wouldn't be the first person to move away after going through all that. They could have said he got a job at the Gotham Gazette for example. Simple and effective. This gets rid of AA without doing something stupid like the whole Henry/Jimmy switcheroo.

I know. Jimmy was put through the ringer in season 8. He was attacked by Doomsday, his wife didn't even stay with or visit him in the hospital (instead her cousin stayed with him), he then witnessed Davis kill someone, his own wife didn't believe him & thought he was crazy, then he saw the body of the guy he saw Davis kill, then he got tasered by his own wife, then he said the hell with it and got a divorce, got hooked on the painkillers, and got beaten up by mobsters who loaned him money.

This was all before he ultimately got killed protecting the same wife who chose on her own to run off with the man who killed Jimmy. I'm sure he could have taken a break from that point on if they didn't want him. If the age thing was such a problem, they could have solved that with the Legion ring (have Jimmy go 10 years to the future) than wasting it to get rid of Lois from the remainder of the episode. By all means they didn't have to kill him. That's another reason why I think that was done for a shock value or as a cheap trick just to get people to tune in to see who was going to die.

ryan-el

06-08-2009, 09:47 PM

xrayvision

06-08-2009, 10:13 PM

I would hate to find out they killed Jimmy Olsen just to get a reaction from Chloe. That would be the worst reason to kill someone. Especially Chloe, who is a non-mythos character & whose role should be reduced now to make more time for Lois, Jimmy (had they not killed him), Perry and other core Superman characters. At this point, the natural evolution of the show should be towards an increased focus on the Superman characters. I think characters like Oliver & Chloe need to be phased out to give Clark & the rest of the characters time to be developed in their final roles. I have a very bad feeling that Clark will not be a reporter and not be shown writing a single article for another season based on the Clark Kent is dead plot. I don't think such a drastic turn in his character will wrap up in only a few episodes. With the Clark Kent is dead direction the show took (if it really is only a metaphorical death), I wouldn't be surprised if this series wraps up without ever getting a single article written by Clark. Because I have a strong feeling season 9 will be the last, and for Clark to ditch his human life, it would also mean ditching his career. And if they fail to develop Clark Kent as becoming an ace reporter on Perry's team, this show would have failed to show how Clark accomplishes the half of his legendary life when he's not wearing the Superman suit. I'm very disappointed at how little time was given to that.

I hope so much I'm wrong. Ditching his humanity is something that should have happened in season 4 or 5, not this late in the game. He finally got to the Daily Planet, and now it seems like they're going to ruin it. This is another reason why I wrote that 4-episode layout for Season 9 the way I did, with Clark actually dying & the spirits of Jonathan, Lionel & Jor-El setting him right before he comes back to life & not allowing it to continue further (sort of like Jonathan did with Clark's/Superman's spirit after he died in battle with Doomsday in the comics, except Jonathan in the comics did something out of character and reminded him that he was a Kryptonian and not a human and that he didn't have to stay dead).

ryan-el

06-08-2009, 11:35 PM

I would hate to find out they killed Jimmy Olsen just to get a reaction from Chloe. That would be the worst reason to kill someone.

this was all you needed to say.

my goodness, you must love the keyboard.

my idea was that...if they had to get rid of AA...given the option of either writing him as "leaving" metropolis or "killing him", they may have decided to go the killing route for the effect it would have on Chloe....maybe.

a loose theory, but one none the less.

Xray...have you ever had a post that was less than 2 lines long?

MjLaDy08

06-09-2009, 01:25 AM

Clark Kent is dead... His human heart is only dead... And my explanation is in here:

Opinion/Observation of all the characters in SV on episode Doomsday...

http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/sh...&postcount=971 (http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4879234&postcount=971)

And here is my theory in season 9...

http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/sh...73&postcount=1 (http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4879273&postcount=1)

Hope you like it... Enjoy!!!

Luthor5339

06-18-2009, 09:32 AM

DIVING INTO THE METAPHORICAL DEATH: AN ALIEN ADOPTEE'S IDENTITY CRISES

First I should note that not everyone goes through this, but I am and there's been books about it. Books that, it seems, the writers may have read in planning for the next season. Superman has always been the representative for many adoptees and 'Smallville' has had MANY episodes that address this whether straight-forward or metaphorically.

Clark's alive - or rather Kal-El is alive, Clark Kent is dead. CK's going through a major identity crises that's really hard to put into words. I can see it and understand it because it's something that I'm going through now as an adoptee which was also strangely activated by a death of someone close to me and the same age as me.

My whole life, I never felt like I fit in. Like I was just going through the motions of belonging. I was trying anything to be "human," while a part of me always knew that it could never be. That I'd always be an outsider, I've left many things or turned many things temporary to ease attachment while still presenting the shield of holding on tightly. Many people define home as where their family is, for me - I define home by location - showing that I've never really had a "home" I could call my own. I was always on the outside. In the end - I am different. I've tried denying that my whole life, but it's come to the point that I can't keep pretending to be someone I'm not. It's starting to hurt on a psychological level... I want this feeling to go away, yet it's impossible to hide from anymore. Maybe, the side I've been ignoring my whole life - thinking there was something wrong with it - maybe that side is stronger. Just maybe I can become who I was always meant to be by embracing it.

“Home? I don’t have a home. I’ve always tried to forget I was an alien or a creature. I’ve always wanted to pretend I was human. I was raised to believe it was my Kryptonian part that was dangerous, but I was wrong."

I've always feared that someone would find out who I really am and leave me alone. Everyone. Ranging from friends to family. If I could be left when I was born, anyone could leave me - nothing's permanent, nothing lasts. But, maybe it's my cousin's death that is causing me to have these doubts... that by embracing the other side, I no longer have to fear establishing attachments and having them taken away from me. It hurts too much, maybe that's the enemy -

"It’s my human side; it’s the side that gets attached, the side that makes decisions based on emotions. That’s my enemy. It’s what’s stopping me from being the hero I could be. It’s what the world needs now. Clark Kent is dead.”

Spider-Man has also dealt with this at some point, the question of who is the stronger? The man or the spider? One or - the other? That's kinda what I'm going through now... trying to find out which part of me is stronger and from the sounds of it that's the road CK is on as well. It's a deep dark forest, where you can dissolve into nothing without something tying you back to planet Earth. But, maybe it's worth it - maybe not. That's the question in the next part of the journey, and from the looks of Metallo being brought in - looks to be the question season nine is asking. Am I a man or am I an alien?

ironman29758

06-19-2009, 11:11 AM

First of all, there is no Henry, not for me anyway. I won't have my intelligence insulted by such a farce. I've read Superman comics & have plenty in my collection, and trust me when I say this that Jimmy's age or personality is far from being the most important thing that doesn't match the comics. If you want to look at things, let's do so:

Clark Kent: THE CLARK KENT/SUPERMAN in the comics is nothing like the Clark on this show. Nothing. He doesn't blame himself for everything & certainly isn't a doormat for everyone. He is inspired by the good he sees in people & relies on himself not other characters to save people. He has no hacking buddy he goes to before he can act on his own. The Clark Kent this show started with was very much like his comic book counterpart. He met people like Kyle Tippet in his travels & helped them. Clark for the last several seasons doesn't even have travels where he meets people anymore. He goes to Chloe who points out people who need help. That's not Superman. The real Clark did not let Jonathan die for his desire to be with Lana Lang. He also did not turn his back towards people who needed his help like he did with Lionel just before Lex killed him. The real Clark traveled the world, helping people all on his own, BECAUSE HE WANTED TO. The real Clark did not have to be guilted into saving people.

Lana: Lana Lang did not marry Lex Luthor to get back at Clark for dumping her. The real Clark never dumped the real Lana since they never really were an item to the extent they have been on this show. She did not put on some alien suit to become a superhero, though stories of a superpowered Lana do exist over the years (which have been retconned by several stories). She also did not try to kill Lex and kidnap people and steal $10 million. She is not the object of everyone's desires in the comics.

Lex: The real Lex Luthor was never pathetic enough to be swayed by the likes of a coffee serving ex cheerleader. He is incredibly intelligent & very dangerous, while being a great businessman. We saw some of qualities in Smallville's Lex, but he was compromised too much by his pursuit of Lana---something he would never waste his time with in the comics. The real Lex was certainly not killed off (his brain was transplanted in the body of a clone before his original body died of cancer from wearing the ring---something that happened years later way after Clark was Superman).

Chloe: She doesn't even exist, so why she's still around this late in the game is beyond me.

Lois: The real Lois Lane did not meet Clark until Clark was already Superman & established as a reporter. She did not meet him in highschool & know of his heroics before he became Superman. She didn't know him before he started sporting his glasses. She has no cousin named Chloe Sullivan.

There are many other things, such as villians who fought Clark in this show who comic book counterparts didn't fight Clark until he was already Superman. These include Zod, Brainiac, Doomsday & others.

So as you can see, NONE of these characters have their comic book personalities. Not a single one of them. If we're going to start playing games like screwing around with characters' middle names because they're not like their comicbook counterpart, then lets not be selective. Let's kill off Lucy Lane, because in the comics, she was Jimmy's age and dated him. Let's kill off Lois or make her lose all her memories prior to season 9 so she doesn't know Clark. Let's kill off Lana since she doesn't have red hair and is the character who is furthest from her comic book counterpart. Pete Ross in this show is not white like his comics counterpart, so I guess that creates a problem for PS3 as well--they should have to kill him off by their "great" logic. Let's kill Clark off since this Clark is a lazy, tragic hero & Clark Kent/Superman of the comics is the antithesis of a tragic hero & became Superman out of faith in humanity & positive self-motivation.

If killing Jimmy off was done because he doesn't match his comics counterpart, then PS3 have serious priority issues. There are MANY more things that have to be fixed before Jimmy's age or personality.

My main point is that this show took too many freedoms & should leave itself as-is. I & many others would have been happy like that. But guess what, they will leave most of the other stuff changed. You know why? Because killing Jimmy had nothing to do with an age difference. They may have given that as their reason, but it wasn't. Because if they're so hell-bent on aligning their characters to their comics characters, they will have to memory-wipe, retcon, and lightswitch every single character and doing that would be the death of the show. Killing Jimmy was done for budgetary reasons, nothing else. They didn't want to kill Chloe or Tess off, so they took something, turned it into a complaint (any complaints about Jimmy faded long ago after we saw how good AA's Jimmy was this season especially), and justified killing Jimmy off by solving a nonexistent complaint that had long since faded. And my guess is that Jimmy will be replaced by a JLA character who will be a regular.

EDIT: One more thing. PS are blaming DC for killing Jimmy off. This is the same company that allowed Lois Lane to be married to another man while having Superman's illegitimate son in Superman Returns. If they allowed that, I don't have a doubt in my mind they would allow Jimmy to stay the way he was. Again, this was clearly not DC's decision. DC is a responsible company that would have nixed the idea of a Jimmy the same age as Clark (just like they put so many other restrictions on this show) from the beginning rather than allowing it & then retconning it. DC is just the scapegoat so PS can now hide their shameful faces.

----- Added 9 Minutes later -----

I'd say it's the people who are paid to do it for a living. Because they're doing a piss-poor job at it. My key points would make season 9 like a more up-to-date version of season 3, which was the best-written season. It would evolve the show to where a show about Clark becoming Superman should be. It would progress his career, his identity & all aspects of his character. It would even allow a much better plot for Chloe that has nothing to do with the Justice League. It would allow Lois to take a major step up, which she should have done by now (12 episodes for Lois vs. 22 for Chloe should not have happened in season 8). It would give us Intergang--a set of villians who would bring back the mob/thug like plots that made season 3 so interesting, believable & doable. Intergang would also be very writable (you can have Clark interact with & fight Intergang much more easily than Doomsday) & wouldn't be a burden on the budget like other villians. Most importantly, it would keep this show about Superman & core Superman characters & the Daily Planet instead of Justice League characters. After all, Superman movies & live action TV series have been much more successful than Justice League movies or live action TV series (which do not exist).

a. The thinks you explained that happened to Clark, Lex, Lana, Lois, and the comic book villians has happen but in different forms from silver age to cartoons(and comic books based on cartoons), movies, etc combine with the TPTB's own personal ideas to show how they grow into their ICONIC roles(although you are right about Chloe)
b.I guess season 8 show how Henry/Jimmy isn't the iconic Jimmy with marrying Chloe, working as a bartender/for oliver queen and the drug story even though he acted like the iconic Jimmy once in a while
c.Clark/Superman was an important into making the JLA into what it is so it's interesting to see the development
d.Clark is becoming a more proactive hero/acting more like superman and even though he give up his human identities but he did it to become a more proactive hero so I'm not complaining
e.your ideas are good but not agreeable but season 8 established the Continuity of not only previous smallville episodes and connected it with the superman universe in order to make a unique and good season so I trust they do the same for season 9