Clark or Oliver

[tippership commander]

reminds me of something someone famous said

"either you're with e, or you're against me"

So, are YOU someone who deals n absolutes?

Who is right, ?

Clark or Oliver?

[eggie]

Clark is right...it is never okay to take a life.

['Tonio09]

Oliver.

[disciples of zod]

Clark is right...even if it is a beast such as Davis, he's always been taught to find the good in ppl. Taking someone's life is not ok.

~H

[dsfjr1190]

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

[Dyanara]

Both of them are idiots, Oliver thinks he's God and Clark has been around Oliver too much

[moviefan2k4]

I vote "neither". Human life is precious, and murder is 100% wrong...but not all deaths are truly murder. For example, what if you were a soldier in a vicious war, fighting the enemy for a true and righteous cause, and you kill someone before they can kill you? That'd be widely considered self-defense in many places, but it doesn't change the fact that you killed someone. It's not murder, but it still happened.

[rebecavaldez]

Clark cost Jimmy his life. I'm on GA's side!

[antx]

I'm with Clark,it's not okay to take someone's life.Clark had a plan,but Oliver had to intervene and shoot an arrow in Clark.Oh man that pissed me off,Oliver has way too much pride.He should have trusted Clark and discuss a reasonable plan,but nooo he has to take things into his own hands.

[zorasuperman]

my clarky

[Dyanara]

I want a neither option also! And moviefan I am right there with you

[Super Maverick]

Claiver

[Timester]

Clark cost Jimmy his life. I'm on GA's side!

Clark cost Jimmy his life? It was Ollie that shot the arrow that led to Jimmy finding Davis in the first place.

[ooglebug]

i think the point is here is that Clark ISNT Superman yet...

hes going to go through his "dark before the dawn" phase first...

sooo clark was wrong, so was ollie, but future clark will always be right :D

[Mythosgirl]

I wish they had found a way to work this thing together. I understand and agree with the not taking a life, but I do think Oliver was much more aware of the danger of Davis and Clark and he should have found more middle ground.

Good morning Olivia.

[Cogito17]

If Oliver hadn't (literally) stabbed Clark in the back. Clark would have been there to deal with Doomsday after he had been seperated from Davis. It was because Clark was knocked out with the green K, that Doomsday was able to get loose in the first place. Also, Jimmy wouldn't have had to whisk Davis and Chloe away, and that situation wouldn't have been set up.

It was Oliver's fault, but they seem to have Clark taking the blame/siding with Oliver's stance anyways, which I disagree with.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Well if Clark would have gone with his plan he would have got himself killed. If Ollie would have gone with his plan, he would kill Davis which is not only impossible but even if he succeeded I think he would have freed Zod. The pragmatic side of me wants to side with Oliver if he was actually able to pull it off. I don't really care about angels, morals, pride, or self-righteousness.

[melissan02]

Ol-li-ver! All the way!

The two C's didn't heed his warning about Davis being a bad guy! A murderer!
It cost Jimmy his life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad:

Even after Davis/Dooms was seperated w/ Black K, Ollie should have killed him right then and there!
I think even Ollie regrets he didn't just do what needed to be done after the seperation...as was evident in the tear streaking down his face and the glare he gave to Chloe!
But no doubt...he'll be lightswitched and welcome Chloe was Watchtower w/ a fruitbasket!!!!!!!!:rolleyes:

[Iluvgreen]

Superman is right... but in this case... I was on GA's side.

[amandaa125]

I was on Olivers side most of the time...but i really think that clark is right. It's never okay to take a life. And part of being superman is preserving that life at any cost. I think both oliver and clark had the right intentions though.

[smallville_is_awesome]

If it was me I would have done what Clark did. He couldnt have predicted that Jimmy was going to die. But he would have killed Davis if he had done what Oliver told him to. And how was he supossed to know Davis was phsyco.
Im with Clark.:)

[dru-zod2501]

I've always been on Clark's side.

Clark made the hard choice, and sometimes the heroes don't win, but it's what they stand for

[BadToad]

I could never support a character who seems so gung-ho to kill, kill, kill!!! Clark may not always be right, but I'll take his approach any day over someone who doesn't seem to have any lines they won't cross, and someone who stabs his friends in the back, quite literally.

[Lis]

I'm with Clark.

[marcella]

Clark, of course

[O'Neill]

Neither.... both of them need to grow up. Although Oliver had the right idea, just not the right attitude. He wanted to get rid of Davis, yet Clark didnt want to.... now Jimmy is dead. Congrats Clark!

Its a shame these superheros are so young... making decisions at such young ages.

[tippership commander]

If Oliver hadn't (literally) stabbed Clark in the back. Clark would have been there to deal with Doomsday after he had been seperated from Davis. It was because Clark was knocked out with the green K, that Doomsday was able to get loose in the first place. Also, Jimmy wouldn't have had to whisk Davis and Chloe away, and that situation wouldn't have been set up.

It was Oliver's fault, but they seem to have Clark taking the blame/siding with Oliver's stance anyways, which I disagree with.

haha i forgot ALL about that

so, Ollie led to jimmy's death? makes sense......if ollie hadnt done that, clark would have been on the scene, and could have taken care of al the problems

[Davis Bloome]

I voted for Oliver, after all even Clark admitted in the end that Oliver was right.

[tippership commander]

i didnt catch an admittance...??

and what about the events of their actios? oliver's choic came bc kto bite him in the ut, and jimmy payd the price

[jpfort1957]

This time Green Arrow was right, and Clark even admitted it. The wait and I'll find a way.........caused more death and dispair for all.

[Fugoukakusha]

Well I always side about not taking a life at all cost no matter how bad that person is. But, looking at the episode, I have to completely see Clark's and Oliver's side of the situation.

Clark:
If he weren't stabbed by Oliver, he would have confronted DD on his own. Even though he managed to split DD and Davis, it would still end up the same way, meaning Jimmy would still be dead BUT at least DD didn't have the chance to wreak havoc in Metropolis first because Clark already would have thrown him into that facility and both of them died. As a side note, Davis would still be dead as well. With his plan two deaths = saving mankind (3 if you count Clark's death if he actually died). Of course, these deaths weren't intentional but it happened nonetheless.

Oliver:
If he succeeded in killing Davis before he unleashed DD then there's a big chance that Jimmy would still be alive and all the people that got killed in Metropolis (when DD was unleashed). Thus, at least saving mankind but not without the sacrifice of Davis' life. If JLA managed to survive then one death = saving mankind. However that death was intentional.


I understand that life is priceless but if you were in a situation where you either must choose to end one life to save the live of the others, I wonder, which would you choose? Like Clark, will you actually try to save that one life even if it might cost more death? Or would you do what Oliver would have done, take that life even if it meant to save the others? What if it's a child's life that you have to take? Would it make a difference?

It's a situation that can't be thought lightly so at the moment I'm choosing neither.

[fa8362]

A lot of people died because Clark refused to kill Davis. Surely one life isn't worth all the innocent people that Doomsday killed. While Clark was screwing around, Doomsday was tearing people apart.

[kari916]

I am so torn I think they both made good points I mean it never ok to take someone life But it turned out Davis was a pyschopath all on his own look at who his parents were.
They were power hungry manics.

[vikingjedi]

This poll gives me a little more faith in humanity. Murder is never ok.

[NinaDavis]

Ollie

[smallvillerocks45]

I've got to go with Clark. He really did do the right thing. Clark didn't kill Jimmy, and although he'll always feel bad about the fact that he couldn't reach them in time to prevent the deaths from happening, There's very little that could have been done differently. It was too late to send him to the phantom zone, and with the JL backstabbing Clark, he was unable to do anything for a while anyhow.

What I don't understand is what Oliver thought he was going to do - stabbing Davis wasn't going to work, Kryptonite wasn't going to work, and obviously by the fact that Davis broke through his rope in her presence --- Chloe wasn't going to prevent the transformation either. I honestly don't know what Oliver could have done that was better.

What I think Clark is going to learn (or maybe should learn) is that sometimes, you just have to send "people" to the phantom zone, and just because Chloe tries to guilt you into not doing it doesn't mean it isn't the right thing to do. If you're not going to kill the bad guy/girl (and I'm not condoning murder - not at all; I'm siding with Clark, after all) then you have to lock them up. Do the crime, pay the time.

[Sports72Xtrm]

The thing is...didn't Clark admit he was wrong and that Ollie was right or did he just say that because he was feeling guilty for Jimmy's death? Was Ollie planning on killing Davis? Or did he just not want to save him and trap him with the Beast? Because I thought Davis couldn't die.

[Tompouce]

Clark cost Jimmy his life. I'm on GA's side!
MOD EDITChloe is responsible for Clark's choice as she "helps" him to change his mind. The scene in the FOS is here for that. His first choice was the Phantom Zone. And she used the more important weakness of Clark to make him change his mind : doubts and guilt. As I said when this epi aired, it was NOT the behavior of a real friend. And look at the consequences now. And how can she dare to say to Clark "I did what you wanted to". WHO influenced him this way ?

[tippership commander]

Clark cost Jimmy his life? It was Ollie that shot the arrow that led to Jimmy finding Davis in the first place.


:nods:

[SGuthrie27]

Clark!!!!

--SGuthrie ><>' :)--

[DGirlLois4Clark]

I choose Tom. He's better looking.lol

[wafflles87]

I'm somewhere in the middle.

Ollie's solution of killing without even looking for another option is not the best (though there are times when it HAS to be done).

But Clark's obsession with "finding a way" is not exactly good either. Trying to save someone is all well and good, but come on... he's overdoing it. It's like an X-men comic I read, where Xavier was so against taking a life, he was willing to allow thousands of people to die by the hands of a madman because he wouldn't believe there is no other way.

While a hero being just so GOOD is respectable, if I'm the one in danger and the only solution is to kill the madman threatening me... I'd want the hero to do it.

I've always thought that the needs of the many surpass the needs of one. If by killing one now you save a thousand, the decision isn't that hard.

[Davis Bloome]

I choose Tom. He's better looking.lol
If you base it on that, no wonder that Clark is winning lol.

[gem4evah]

the only reason this question even exists is beacuse davis really turned out to be a killer w.o. the moster in him and killed jimmy in the process.

i personally think if davis was really a good guy, then ALMOST everyone would agree clark made the right choice, or in this case be on clark's side of logic.

it's the writers fault for turning davis evil and making us disagree with each other!

[DGirlLois4Clark]

If you base it on that, no wonder that Clark is winning lol.

What can I say..Love is blind!.lol.:p

On a serious note, I think Clark and liver are both wrong on different levels.

[Raina]

If Clark had stuck with his initial instincts everything would have been fine I'm sure. He's not perfect but he is way more level headed than Oliver.

Oliver has taken drugs to be a better hero, "killed" Lex in cold blood and shot Clark in the back with a kryptonite arrow to deal with Doomsday. Oliver ultimately lost control of the situation and had to rely on Clark to rectify the situation anyhow.

I'd go with Clark over Oliver anyday.

[Davis Bloome]

the only reason this question even exists is beacuse davis really turned out to be a killer w.o. the moster in him and killed jimmy in the process.

i personally think if davis was really a good guy, then ALMOST everyone would agree clark made the right choice, or in this case be on clark's side of logic.

it's the writers fault for turning davis evil and making us disagree with each other!
I agree with you there. If Davis was the good guy he was meant to be, then Clark would indeed be right and he would have come up with the best idea to split Davis from DD. Since he turned out to get psycho all of a sudden in this episode, it proved Clark to be wrong and Oliver right. Well that's just stupid (not of Clark, but the writers)

[Kuzz]

Anyone that thinks clark is right is an idiot..... He is such a dumbass taking a life is never right.... taking a innocent life that is good is not right.... ok fair play he found a way to seperate the good davis from doomsday but then he wasn't good at all so he should of just killed him... by killing davis from the start he would have saved a good 30people that had died from doomsday specially jimmy!!! Think about it u idiots!

You don't realise how bad the world has got since they stopped the electric chair and hanging people cos everyone knows they can get away with what they want now days.... rape hmm 2years murder life? then halfed? get out early? its just ****ed up and the same **** applies for clark just kill the bad people you pussy!

[redheadluvgoddess]

I'm somewhere in the middle.

Ollie's solution of killing without even looking for another option is not the best (though there are times when it HAS to be done).

But Clark's obsession with "finding a way" is not exactly good either. Trying to save someone is all well and good, but come on... he's overdoing it. It's like an X-men comic I read, where Xavier was so against taking a life, he was willing to allow thousands of people to die by the hands of a madman because he wouldn't believe there is no other way.

While a hero being just so GOOD is respectable, if I'm the one in danger and the only solution is to kill the madman threatening me... I'd want the hero to do it.

I've always thought that the needs of the many surpass the needs of one. If by killing one now you save a thousand, the decision isn't that hard.

Quoted for truth. :)

I'm also of the "in the middle" persuasion. I don't condone cold-blooded murder, but when the fate of the entire world is at stake? Okay, I can support that. Do I think someone taking Hitler out would have been justifiable? Damn right, I do!

So... I guess I'm saying that I agree and disagree with both their stances on this one. Yes, it was good to try and save someone who COULD be saved, but if you run out of options, do what must be done.

[borednow]

Oliver...

[Angelina2809]

i can understand both sites!!!
oliver saw how many people davis killed and he wanted to protect other people from dying! please do not missunderstood me! also clark always want to protect other people's life! it is not easy to say who is right or wrong! both of them had good thoughts!
both want to fight for the right! but this time they had two different options to do it!
the difference between clark and oliver is that clark always want to see the GOOD things in every person! that is how clark gowed up!
i know that oliver mean it in a good way to kill doomsday or want to kill domsday.
but i agree with clark! to try EVERYTHING to protect even an evil (doomsday is the evil, not davis) is the right thing! if it do not work out - well, than it is up to everone what they choose to do! remember season 5: clark killed many phantom's! martha was shocked to see his son like that! you remember the scene between clark and martha in season 6 episode 17 "fightclub".
at the beginning of this episode clark and martha had the talk about killing other people etc.
not matter what lex had done - clark never ever killed him! i mean look what lex had done to clark! what he had done to his family to lana and his lovelife etc.!
and clark never killed him - he hit him or they hit eachother in season 5 but he never killed him! okay they was best friends but clark learned from jonthan never to take other people's life. only jor - el said to clark that sometimes people have no choice.
that HE have no choice!

[Mr.Magic]

i think the point is here is that Clark ISNT Superman yet...

hes going to go through his "dark before the dawn" phase first...

sooo clark was wrong, so was ollie, but future clark will always be right :D

There is no such thing as a "dark before the dawn" with Clark Kent. Superman is just Clark Kent in tights.
There is no Superman in Smallville, and there never can be. Compared to the real C.K. Welling's version is like a drama queen vs. an all-star quarterback. I don't blame Welling, he understands how the character SHOULD be.

Anyhow, I'd like to lana-arrow the Oliver-voters until they know (knowledge hurts) that unnecessary violence shouldn't be the answer (and deadly responses are never an option) for a true hero.

[Angelina2809]

i meant season 6 not season 5 - sorry!!!

[Myrddin]

Clark

That is the whole point of Superman.

He is the moral voice, the light, that we all aspire and look up to. That we all hope that we can live up to. Quite frankly, we need that. Even if we cannot be that ourselves, we need that light/hope somewhere in the world.

I love Batman and Ollie.

But the world NEEDS a Superman.

[Liquid-Prince]

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

Only a Sith deals in... Aw damn, someone already said it... :p

[Jaderoyale]

Clark.
Because yes, Oliver did have a point about Davis not being any different from the Beast; but Oliver 'killed Lex' and has been regretting it ever since. His logic of 'saving people' backfired on him in that instance.

[SmallvilleStud]

I hate to say it but Oliver, if there is no other option (or the other options would end in disaster) and taking a life is required, pull the trigger.

[miks]

MOD EDIT Chloe is responsible for Clark's choice as she "helps" him to change his mind. The scene in the FOS is here for that. His first choice was the Phantom Zone. And she used the more important weakness of Clark to make him change his mind : doubts and guilt. As I said when this epi aired, it was NOT the behavior of a real friend. And look at the consequences now. And how can she dare to say to Clark "I did what you wanted to". WHO influenced him this way ?

Chloe made him realize that he would have felt like crap sending Davis and Doomsday into the PZ. Which he later admitted that she was right! MOD EDIT It isn't his weakness to want to help people, it's his strength, and at that moment he wasn't thinking straight. His best friend knows him more than anyone else, once he actually thought about it he realized she was right. That's why he found another way, he figured he would separate the two and then send just Doooms into the PZ. He didn't find that way sooner because TPTB wanted to stretch things out. But they didn't add that line from Clark to Chloe just for the hell of it! It meant something and it still does. They didn't have Clark think of a better way of handling Davis/Dooms if Chloe wasn't right in this situation. Even though they messed it up in the end and made Davis into a crazy psycho killer anyway; Clark and Chloe still had the right intentions. There is no reason for blaming Chloe when Clark himself said that she was right and he found a better way. But I guess she gets the blame for everything anyway.:rolleyes:

I agree with both Clark and Ollie. Clark found a better way to get rid of him, but it also cost people lives because it took him a while to think of it. Ollie wanted to deal with the situation right away. But I don't see how Ollie could have killed him, but I don't see how Clark did either.

[Mr.Magic]

Chloe made him realize that he would have felt like crap sending Davis and Doomsday into the PZ. Which he later admitted that she was right! How are you still blaming that on Chloe?

Because Chloe was wrong and it was the right thing to do. Clark feels even crappier, now that DD went on a spree and DB killed Jimmy.

[ravidubey]

The important thing: The contention they have is not about whether killing is right for you or I, but whether superheroes can do it.

Superheroes act outside of the law and with power beyond normal people (super or not). They must serve as examples for normal people. Clark has an even bigger responsibility since other superheroes follow him.

His code of conduct and love and respect for all people set him apart just as much as his powers do. This is the crux of the Superman legend.

Superman's greatest power is the ability to inspire hope and serve as an example. It's a huge responsibility. If he's a murderer or acts in a cruel or selfish manner it destroys everything he stands for. People would fear that person and his enemies would use that fear to help destroy him.

Doing everything they can to avoid killing under any circumstances is what makes the legends of Superman and Batman endure beyond all other superheroes.

[Sweetie]

I'm on Clark's side.

[WhoRU?]

Clark had a great plan but it was hard to see whether that was going to work because he losing time because the pre-leaguers had betrayed him and DD was killing people.

The great positives in Clarks plan:

1.) He would have subdued Davis without a fight with superspeed.
2.) He would have separate Davis from Doomsday with Black Kryptonite.
3.) He would have save Davis.
4.) He would have save Chloe.
5.) He would bury Doomsday for good.
6.) He had Impulse and Black Canary's help in setting up the station.
7.) He would have no one was killed except for Doomsday.

However, what actually happen was:

1.) The pre-leaguers betrayed him and he was literally shot from behind by Green Arrow.
2.) He was actually dying under the influence of the Green Kryptonite and couldn't do anything.
3.) The pre-leaguers with Impulse had subdued Davis but then messed up (because without Clark to keep DD busy), so DD went on a rampage after either knocking out the pre-leaguers (or Black Canary knocking everyone out and screamed DD away).
4.) He did confront Doomsday until after the pre-leaguers failed and then finding DD in the city but there was lost of lives in the city already.

He was lucky that his plan eventually came to fruition because:

1.) Jimmy finds him and removed the Green Kryptonite dart.
2.) Chloe had already separated Doomsday from Davis with his Black Kryptonite.

But what he and everyone else (including the viewers) did not expect despite a successful but delayed execution of his plan on Doomsday was:

1.) Davis the weak Kryptonian, was still a jealous murderer without the Doomsday beast.
2.) Jimmy was attacked from behind and killed because of the jealously.
3.) Chloe was still endangered from Davis without Doomsday, because of her loyalty to Clark and Davis not wanting to be saved out of pity.

Although Clark dealt with Doomsday accordingly to his plan despite the pre-leaguers delaying him and caused people in the city to be killed, Jimmy lost his life saving Chloe and enabling Clark to save more people being killed by Doomsday.

The tragic and unexpected hero of the night was Jimmy. We should inspired by the bravery of a hero without superpowers.

So the Clark's plan was ideal, the execution would have been perfect except for the delays from the betrayal and that Jimmy was hanging about.

If there was no betrayal, Doomsday would have been sorted, without any killings in the city if any. But Davis would have been still been Jealous and everyone assumed that only the beast did the killing but in the events leading up to this had Davis already doing the killing to prevent the beast from coming out and doing an even greater number of killings. But only the viewers can see that and not the characters.

He would have executed that plan perfectly because he would have not been betrayed by pre-leaguers and chloe and Jimmy would not be in harms way.

In fact, if GA did not betrayed Clark, then even if Davis was separated from DD, Clark would have been able to deal with DD quick and smartly ahead of time. Clark would have finished by the time that Davis would have recovered and be there with Chloe.

If Clark was able to foresaw that viewers had of the fact that Davis had already turned as a killer, then he would have just forget about having a Black kryptonite option.

I am amazed that people are so readily able to say that Oliver had it right simply on the basis of having the foresight and looking back with 20/20 vision, and the truth be known you will all still be helpless as GA and the pre-leaguers was against DD and the pre-leaguers broke up having no confidence with GA.

And what of GA's plan?

1.) Nearly killed Clark without knowing because of the Kryptonite dart.
2.) He had no intel on Davis or DD and expect to kill DD with an arrow?
3.) In fact he refused to understand kryptonian intel from Clark who is a kryptonian.
4.) Was he able to face DD/Davis with his pre-leaguer team without the most powerful player (i.e. Clark) by a country mile? And expect to stop and equally powerful DD??
5.) Shooting arrow to kill was going to work on a kryptonian beast?? How many arrows was he expecting against a beast that was going to take out Clark without kryptonite??
6.) He had Davis in plastic restraints and not even in chains, did he not know that he was a powerful being??
7.) Was ready to shoot and kill Davis in order to kill the beast and knowing that Davis was maybe innocent and not guilty. He did have Clark's option to consider.

Did he have a half decent plan or logic?

Yeah right.

GA hasn't go much in the way of strategy like Clark has. GA underestimated big time that even Batman would have been shocked.

[smithy698]

Clark had a great plan but it was hard to see whether that was going to work because he losing time because the pre-leaguers had betrayed him and DD was killing people.

The great positives in Clarks plan:

1.) He would have subdued Davis without a fight with superspeed.
2.) He would have separate Davis from Doomsday with Black Kryptonite.
3.) He would have save Davis.
4.) He would have save Chloe.
5.) He would bury Doomsday for good.
6.) He had Impulse and Black Canary's help in setting up the station.
7.) He would have no one was killed except for Doomsday.

However, what actually happen was:

1.) The pre-leaguers betrayed him and he was literally shot from behind by Green Arrow.
2.) He was actually dying under the influence of the Green Kryptonite and couldn't do anything.
3.) The pre-leaguers with Impulse had subdued Davis but then messed up (because without Clark to keep DD busy), so DD went on a rampage after either knocking out the pre-leaguers (or Black Canary knocking everyone out and screamed DD away).
4.) He did confront Doomsday until after the pre-leaguers failed and then finding DD in the city but there was lost of lives in the city already.

He was lucky that his plan eventually came to fruition because:

1.) Jimmy finds him and removed the Green Kryptonite dart.
2.) Chloe had already separated Doomsday from Davis with his Black Kryptonite.

But what he and everyone else (including the viewers) did not expect despite a successful but delayed execution of his plan on Doomsday was:

1.) Davis the weak Kryptonian, was still a jealous murderer without the Doomsday beast.
2.) Jimmy was attacked from behind and killed because of the jealously.
3.) Chloe was still endangered from Davis without Doomsday, because of her loyalty to Clark and Davis not wanting to be saved out of pity.

Although Clark dealt with Doomsday accordingly to his plan despite the pre-leaguers delaying him and caused people in the city to be killed, Jimmy lost his life saving Chloe and enabling Clark to save more people being killed by Doomsday.

The tragic and unexpected hero of the night was Jimmy. We should inspired by the bravery of a hero without superpowers.

So the Clark's plan was ideal, the execution would have been perfect except for the delays from the betrayal and that Jimmy was hanging about.

If there was no betrayal, Doomsday would have been sorted, without any killings in the city if any. But Davis would have been still been Jealous and everyone assumed that only the beast did the killing but in the events leading up to this had Davis already doing the killing to prevent the beast from coming out and doing an even greater number of killings. But only the viewers can see that and not the characters.

He would have executed that plan perfectly because he would have not been betrayed by pre-leaguers and chloe and Jimmy would not be in harms way.

In fact, if GA did not betrayed Clark, then even if Davis was separated from DD, Clark would have been able to deal with DD quick and smartly ahead of time. Clark would have finished by the time that Davis would have recovered and be there with Chloe.

If Clark was able to foresaw that viewers had of the fact that Davis had already turned as a killer, then he would have just forget about having a Black kryptonite option.

I am amazed that people are so readily able to say that Oliver had it right simply on the basis of having the foresight and looking back with 20/20 vision, and the truth be known you will all still be helpless as GA and the pre-leaguers was against DD and the pre-leaguers broke up having no confidence with GA.

And what of GA's plan?

1.) Nearly killed Clark without knowing because of the Kryptonite dart.
2.) He had no intel on Davis or DD and expect to kill DD with an arrow?
3.) In fact he refused to understand kryptonian intel from Clark who is a kryptonian.
4.) Was he able to face DD/Davis with his pre-leaguer team without the most powerful player (i.e. Clark) by a country mile? And expect to stop and equally powerful DD??
5.) Shooting arrow to kill was going to work on a kryptonian beast?? How many arrows was he expecting against a beast that was going to take out Clark without kryptonite??
6.) He had Davis in plastic restraints and not even in chains, did he not know that he was a powerful being??
7.) Was ready to shoot and kill Davis in order to kill the beast and knowing that Davis was maybe innocent and not guilty. He did have Clark's option to consider.

Did he have a half decent plan or logic?

Yeah right.

GA hasn't go much in the way of strategy like Clark has. GA underestimated big time that even Batman would have been shocked.

This point is based on some big assumptions, isn't it? Separating Doomsday from Davis was Clark's plan, and the bottom line is that Davis's jealousy is what proved lethal to Jimmy. Are those who say Clark's plan was perfect suggesting that Clark was going to watch over Jimmy and Chloe forever? He showed no understanding that Davis was a danger once separated from Doomsday, so why would he?

GA's plan was flawed, but Clark's wasn't perfect either.

[SnowBird]

<TABLE class="" id=bodyDrftID cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD id=drftMsgContent>A chain of events is why Jimmy is dead, and Doomsday was freed to kill.

Clark had a good plan to send Davis/Doomsday to the Phantom Zone...Chloe interfered.

Clark's alternate plan. Divide Davis from Doomsday and send Doomsday to the Phantom Zone...Tess interfered by stealing and destroying the crystal.

Clark's final plan to divide Davis from Doomsday and bury Doomsday a mile underground...The Justice League turned on Clark and.Ollie shot Clark with a Kryptonite Dart, resulting in Chloe using the black Kryptonite to separate Davis/DD without Clark, resulting in Doomsday going on a rampage. Clark then had to come to the rescue to bury Doomsday underground.

Why was Jimmy even involved. We go back to Ollie hiring Jimmy and sending him to the Daily Planet on a recon mission to find information from Tess' computer on where Chloe and Davis were hiding. Jimmy found out where they were and went himself to investigate. Jimmy saved Clark from the Kryptonite. Clark asked Jimmy to take Chloe and Davis to Chloe's wedding present, a building. Jimmy wouldn't even be involved if Ollie hadn't put him on his payroll and sent him to the Daily Planet.

At every turn, Clark's plans were undermined. He was left out of the loop, didn't know all the facts, friends turned against him, incompetent friends taking it upon themselves to try do Clark's job for him. Clark still doesn't know all the facts that led to Jimmy's death so he takes the blame, and absolutely no one comes forward to say, I share the blame.

It's really pathetic that Ollie shot Clark with Kryptonite. On top of that everyone left Clark alone defenseless. Ollie could not possibly kill Davis because nothing could kill him, but yet, Ollie thought he knew best. Chloe thought she knew best when she kept Clark from sending Davis to the PZ. . The JL thought they knew best by siding with Ollie. None of them knew best except for Clark. If they would have left Clark to do what he knew best, the tragedies that happened wouldn't have happened. If Ollie wouldn't have hired Jimmy, he would still be alive.

Many people ready to blame Clark which is so wrong. Instead, a series of events by Clark's so called friends is to blame. Ollie was one of the major players that deserves a big share of the blame. Clark being Clark is the only one MAN enough to accept blame that isn't even his because he doesn't know all the facts. Clark is actually a real hero in all this. The other ones involved should be hanging their heads in shame and thanking Clark for cleaning up their Doomsday mess in Metropolis. No one came forward to confess, not even Chloe who was talking to Clark before he left. She should have told him about her part in Jimmy's death so Clark wouldn't carry the burden but no, Clark is blaming his humanity for events out of his control which has caused him to follow his Kryptonian side. Like I said before, with friends like Clark has, who needs enemies.





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[Bizarrolover]

Great post, Bev!

Clark knew better all the time but 'friends' undermined his plans. And, like you said, no one stepped forward to share the responsibility of Jimmy's death, lettind Clark believe that it was all his fault. I really hate when the writers do that and I hope they address the subject in S9, because Clark doesn't deserve to carry this burden on his own.

[Dyanara]

Clark should wear a kryptonite necklace and kick Oliver's butt. That way he will hurt him but not kill him

[smithy698]

<TABLE class="" id=bodyDrftID cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD id=drftMsgContent>A chain of events is why Jimmy is dead, and Doomsday was freed to kill.

Clark had a good plan to send Davis/Doomsday to the Phantom Zone...Chloe interfered.

Clark's alternate plan. Divide Davis from Doomsday and send Doomsday to the Phantom Zone...Tess interfered by stealing and destroying the crystal.

Clark's final plan to divide Davis from Doomsday and bury Doomsday a mile underground...The Justice League turned on Clark and.Ollie shot Clark with a Kryptonite Dart, resulting in Chloe using the black Kryptonite to separate Davis/DD without Clark, resulting in Doomsday going on a rampage. Clark then had to come to the rescue to bury Doomsday underground.

Why was Jimmy even involved. We go back to Ollie hiring Jimmy and sending him to the Daily Planet on a recon mission to find information from Tess' computer on where Chloe and Davis were hiding. Jimmy found out where they were and went himself to investigate. Jimmy saved Clark from the Kryptonite. Clark asked Jimmy to take Chloe and Davis to Chloe's wedding present, a building. Jimmy wouldn't even be involved if Ollie hadn't put him on his payroll and sent him to the Daily Planet.

At every turn, Clark's plans were undermined. He was left out of the loop, didn't know all the facts, friends turned against him, incompetent friends taking it upon themselves to try do Clark's job for him. Clark still doesn't know all the facts that led to Jimmy's death so he takes the blame, and absolutely no one comes forward to say, I share the blame.

It's really pathetic that Ollie shot Clark with Kryptonite. On top of that everyone left Clark alone defenseless. Ollie could not possibly kill Davis because nothing could kill him, but yet, Ollie thought he knew best. Chloe thought she knew best when she kept Clark from sending Davis to the PZ. . The JL thought they knew best by siding with Ollie. None of them knew best except for Clark. If they would have left Clark to do what he knew best, the tragedies that happened wouldn't have happened. If Ollie wouldn't have hired Jimmy, he would still be alive.

Many people ready to blame Clark which is so wrong. Instead, a series of events by Clark's so called friends is to blame. Ollie was one of the major players that deserves a big share of the blame. Clark being Clark is the only one MAN enough to accept blame that isn't even his because he doesn't know all the facts. Clark is actually a real hero in all this. The other ones involved should be hanging their heads in shame and thanking Clark for cleaning up their Doomsday mess in Metropolis. No one came forward to confess, not even Chloe who was talking to Clark before he left. She should have told him about her part in Jimmy's death so Clark wouldn't carry the burden but no, Clark is blaming his humanity for events out of his control which has caused him to follow his Kryptonian side. Like I said before, with friends like Clark has, who needs enemies.





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So by giving Jimmy a job Ollie is to blame for Jimmy's death? MOD EDIT Is Ollie to blame for Jimmy and Chloe having a relationship? Because it's that relationship which ultimately doomed Jimmy, as Davis's jealousy turned murderous.

Clark did not anticipate what Davis would do when he split him from Doomsday. His plan, therefore, was flawed - given Davis's unstable personality he would have turned on Chloe and Jimmy sooner or later, and Clark would not have been able to watch them forever.

I'm not saying Clark is solely to blame - of course he isn't. MOD EDIT Everyone contributed to the sequence of events that led to Jimmy's death, including Clark, and no amount of speculatory gymnastics is going to change that.

[Joe90]

''CK''... all the way, with all of his Powers,it dosent give him the right to choose between Life/Death.
We didnt really thought of Davis could turn like he did.:\

[I_AM_LEX_LUTHOR]

CK!

[SnowBird]

So by giving Jimmy a job Ollie is to blame for Jimmy's death? MOD EDIT Is Ollie to blame for Jimmy and Chloe having a relationship? Because it's that relationship which ultimately doomed Jimmy, as Davis's jealousy turned murderous.

Clark did not anticipate what Davis would do when he split him from Doomsday. His plan, therefore, was flawed - given Davis's unstable personality he would have turned on Chloe and Jimmy sooner or later, and Clark would not have been able to watch them forever.

I'm not saying Clark is solely to blame - of course he isn't. MOD EDIT Everyone contributed to the sequence of events that led to Jimmy's death, including Clark, and no amount of speculatory gymnastics is going to change that.

Clark's plan wasn't flawed. How could he anticipate what Davis would do, and that Chloe would set him off. Why should this rest on Clark's shoulders since no one anticipated what Davis would do. The whole time even the viewers were fed time and time again that Davis had a good side and that Doomsday was the monster, and many believed this.

Why not pile the blame where it should be? Clark did everything in his power to get rid of the threat to mankind and was undermined each time. He didn't tell Chloe to confess to Jimmy that she only was with Davis to help Clark right in front of Davis. (By the way, I don't believe she did it just for Clark.) Clark didn't tell Ollie to hire Jimmy putting him in harms way. Clark didn't tell the JL to betray him. Clark didn't tell Chloe to go with Davis to try to protect him. Clark didn't tell Tess to interfere and push him towards killing Doomsday by destroying the crystal. Clark didn't tell Ollie to shoot him with a green K dart.

The one thing Clark did do was tell Jimmy to take Davis and Chloe to the future Watchtower. BUT, if everyone else hadn't interfered, Clark would never and I repeat never have been in the position to make that decision. A series of events out of Clark's control is to blame. The thing is, because no one has come forward to say, I'm sorry for my part in Jimmy's murder, Clark is taking the guilt upon himself. Clark's friends are cowards and they are to blame along with Davis for Jimmy's death, NOT Clark. He is the Hero in spite of the other participants who just got in the way making it possible for Davis to kill Jimmy.

[cloisville]

clark

[smithy698]

Clark's plan wasn't flawed. How could he anticipate what Davis would do, and that Chloe would set him off. Why should this rest on Clark's shoulders since no one anticipated what Davis would do. The whole time even the viewers were fed time and time again that Davis had a good side and that Doomsday was the monster, and many believed this.

Why not pile the blame where it should be? Clark did everything in his power to get rid of the threat to mankind and was undermined each time. He didn't tell Chloe to confess to Jimmy that she only was with Davis to help Clark right in front of Davis. (By the way, I don't believe she did it just for Clark.) Clark didn't tell Ollie to hire Jimmy putting him in harms way. Clark didn't tell the JL to betray him. Clark didn't tell Chloe to go with Davis to try to protect him. Clark didn't tell Tess to interfere and push him towards killing Doomsday by destroying the crystal. Clark didn't tell Ollie to shoot him with a green K dart.

The one thing Clark did do was tell Jimmy to take Davis and Chloe to the future Watchtower. BUT, if everyone else hadn't interfered, Clark would never and I repeat never have been in the position to make that decision. A series of events out of Clark's control is to blame. The thing is, because no one has come forward to say, I'm sorry for my part in Jimmy's murder, Clark is taking the guilt upon himself. Clark's friends are cowards and they are to blame along with Davis for Jimmy's death, NOT Clark. He is the Hero in spite of the other participants who just got in the way making it possible for Davis to kill Jimmy.

Sorry, but using the fact that Ollie hired Jimmy to blame Ollie for Jimmy's death is grossly unfair. The point is only relevant if Ollie hired him with malicious intent - which is absurd. If you follow this line of thinking then you should blame Clark for giving his blessing to the Chloe/Jimmy relationship, which is equally unjust.

Clark's plan WAS flawed, because it did not allow for Davis's true nature. Clark made an unintended mistake, like the others - they all contributed to the sequence of events that led to Jimmy's death. None of them are villains, just good people trying to do their best in a highly pressured situation - why do some people feel that the only way they can put Clark's case is to run down everyone else in such an over-the-top manner?

I'm waiting for the first poster to accuse Ollie, the League and Chloe of being responsible for global warming, world poverty and the economic crisis - it can only be a matter of time:rolleyes:

[I_AM_LEX_LUTHOR]

What are they trying to make oliver!!

GA/OQ aint evil but I guess these writers have something else in mind!

[SnowBird]

Sorry, but using the fact that Ollie hired Jimmy to blame Ollie for Jimmy's death is grossly unfair. The point is only relevant if Ollie hired him with malicious intent - which is absurd. If you follow this line of thinking then you should blame Clark for giving his blessing to the Chloe/Jimmy relationship, which is equally unjust.

Clark's plan WAS flawed, because it did not allow for Davis's true nature. Clark made an unintended mistake, like the others - they all contributed to the sequence of events that led to Jimmy's death. None of them are villains, just good people trying to do their best in a highly pressured situation - why do some people feel that the only way they can put Clark's case is to run down everyone else in such an over-the-top manner?

I'm waiting for the first poster to accuse Ollie, the League and Chloe of being responsible for global warming, world poverty and the economic crisis - it can only be a matter of time:rolleyes:

All you have to ask yourself is: Did Ollie help or hinder Clark being able to save the world by burying Doomsday? Did Ollie's participation, cause a series of events that resulted in Jimmy's death?

Ollie is not above blame and trying to shift the blame to Clark is ignoring the fact that without Oliver, Jimmy would probably be alive today.

Fools rush in where the wise fear to tread. Oliver was a fool to rush in, disabling Clark to take on Davis himself. Pure and simple. Clark's plan was taken out of his hands by Oliver, therefore, relieving Clark of the blame of Jimmy's death.

[smithy698]

All you have to ask yourself is: Did Ollie help or hinder Clark being able to save the world by burying Doomsday? Did Ollie's participation, cause a series of events that resulted in Jimmy's death?

Ollie is not above blame and trying to shift the blame to Clark is ignoring the fact that without Oliver, Jimmy would probably be alive today.

Fools rush in where the wise fear to tread. Oliver was a fool to rush in, disabling Clark to take on Davis himself. Pure and simple. Clark's plan was taken out of his hands by Oliver, therefore, relieving Clark of the blame of Jimmy's death.

I'm not saying Ollie is above blame - I'm saying that ALL involved inadvertantly contributed to the sequence of events that led to Jimmy's death, including Clark. I stand by my view that it is grossly unfair to use the fact that Ollie employed Jimmy against Ollie, for the reasons I give above. I also note that no one has an answer to what I see as the central flaw in Clark's plan - the fact that he did not anticipate Davis's malicious intent. A good plan is one that takes into account all eventualities - Clark's plan didn't, and was therefore flawed. He could not have watched over Jimmy and Chloe forever, so sooner or later tragedy would have struck as Davis's jealousy overwhelmed him. Clark's approach was flawed, just like Ollie's - I'm not trying to say Clark is wrong and Ollie is right, just that both had got it wrong, but both were doing their best in a difficult situation.

[WhoRU?]

Clark had the perfect plan to send Davis/Doomsday to the Phantom Zone...But Brainiac/Chloe convince him otherwise. (of course to leave an vessel for Zod)

Clark's alternate less than perfect plan. Divide Davis from Doomsday and send Doomsday to the Phantom Zone...Tess interfered by stealing and destroying the crystal.

Clark's final reason enough plan to divide Davis from Doomsday and bury Doomsday a mile underground...The pre-leaguers turned on Clark and.Ollie shot Clark with a Kryptonite Dart, resulting in Chloe using the black Kryptonite to separate Davis/DD without Clark, resulting in Doomsday going on a rampage. Clark then had to come to the rescue to bury Doomsday underground.

As you see Clark had the perfect plan at the beginning, but then he wanted to see the best out of people even Davis. He wanted hope. But as he tried to allow for people's reasoning, he changed his original plan and then change again to account for the destroyed Crystal and then was forced to change by GA and the pre-leaguers. On hindsight, the sending of DD/Davis to the Phantom Zone, if it was not for Brainiac/Chloe wanting to leave an vessel for Zod.

Clark was not able to know that Brainiac was in Chloe so he would have not agreed otherwise.
Clark was not to know that Tess was obeying orders to steal and smash the Crystal and he couldn't do anything about that.
Clark was betrayed, there was nothing he could have really done.

So he ends up using a 4th plan.

Those were unavoidable situations, otherwise he had it right but had to adapt because of others evil plans.

Did Clark have an evil plan? No.

But Brainiac, Tess and even Green Arrow had their own plans.

Brainiac's evil plan not forgivable.
Tess's misguided plan possibly forgivable because she seems to be misguided.
Green Arrows dumb plan probably forgivable because he was trying to protect Clark while stupidly trying the impossible heroism.

Who had the better and most logical plan? Clark's four plans were still better at the end of the day.

If he was able to execute the first plan, then noone else would be involved and noone would have been killed, including Davis/Doomsday.

The first plan was perfect but then Brainiac happen and the everyone else wanted a piece of the action that should have soley belongs to Clark. It was his responsibility and his destiny. It was not just he that didn't believe it but everyone else didn't and was much worse than he was.

Clark still had the better logic, everyone else keep changing the situation and he had to adapt his logic to suit. But even logic does not stand well without extra knowledge hidden away.

[abbaspice1]

Clark had the perfect plan to send Davis/Doomsday to the Phantom Zone...But Brainiac/Chloe convince him otherwise. (of course to leave an vessel for Zod)

Clark's alternate less than perfect plan. Divide Davis from Doomsday and send Doomsday to the Phantom Zone...Tess interfered by stealing and destroying the crystal.

Clark's final reason enough plan to divide Davis from Doomsday and bury Doomsday a mile underground...The pre-leaguers turned on Clark and.Ollie shot Clark with a Kryptonite Dart, resulting in Chloe using the black Kryptonite to separate Davis/DD without Clark, resulting in Doomsday going on a rampage. Clark then had to come to the rescue to bury Doomsday underground.

As you see Clark had the perfect plan at the beginning, but then he wanted to see the best out of people even Davis. He wanted hope. But as he tried to allow for people's reasoning, he changed his original plan and then change again to account for the destroyed Crystal and then was forced to change by GA and the pre-leaguers. On hindsight, the sending of DD/Davis to the Phantom Zone, if it was not for Brainiac/Chloe wanting to leave an vessel for Zod.

Clark was not able to know that Brainiac was in Chloe so he would have not agreed otherwise.
Clark was not to know that Tess was obeying orders to steal and smash the Crystal and he couldn't do anything about that.
Clark was betrayed, there was nothing he could have really done.

So he ends up using a 4th plan.

Those were unavoidable situations, otherwise he had it right but had to adapt because of others evil plans.

Did Clark have an evil plan? No.

But Brainiac, Tess and even Green Arrow had their own plans.

Brainiac's evil plan not forgivable.
Tess's misguided plan possibly forgivable because she seems to be misguided.
Green Arrows dumb plan probably forgivable because he was trying to protect Clark while stupidly trying the impossible heroism.

Who had the better and most logical plan? Clark's four plans were still better at the end of the day.

If he was able to execute the first plan, then noone else would be involved and noone would have been killed, including Davis/Doomsday.

The first plan was perfect but then Brainiac happen and the everyone else wanted a piece of the action that should have soley belongs to Clark. It was his responsibility and his destiny. It was not just he that didn't believe it but everyone else didn't and was much worse than he was.

Clark still had the better logic, everyone else keep changing the situation and he had to adapt his logic to suit. But even logic does not stand well without extra knowledge hidden away.

Totally agree!

As others have stated, with 'friends' such as these, Clark sure doesn't need any enemies.

[ox007]

Clark had the perfect plan to send Davis/Doomsday to the Phantom Zone...But Brainiac/Chloe convince him otherwise. (of course to leave an vessel for Zod)

Clark's alternate less than perfect plan. Divide Davis from Doomsday and send Doomsday to the Phantom Zone...Tess interfered by stealing and destroying the crystal.

Clark's final reason enough plan to divide Davis from Doomsday and bury Doomsday a mile underground...The pre-leaguers turned on Clark and.Ollie shot Clark with a Kryptonite Dart, resulting in Chloe using the black Kryptonite to separate Davis/DD without Clark, resulting in Doomsday going on a rampage. Clark then had to come to the rescue to bury Doomsday underground.

As you see Clark had the perfect plan at the beginning, but then he wanted to see the best out of people even Davis. He wanted hope. But as he tried to allow for people's reasoning, he changed his original plan and then change again to account for the destroyed Crystal and then was forced to change by GA and the pre-leaguers. On hindsight, the sending of DD/Davis to the Phantom Zone, if it was not for Brainiac/Chloe wanting to leave an vessel for Zod.

Clark was not able to know that Brainiac was in Chloe so he would have not agreed otherwise.
Clark was not to know that Tess was obeying orders to steal and smash the Crystal and he couldn't do anything about that.
Clark was betrayed, there was nothing he could have really done.

So he ends up using a 4th plan.

Those were unavoidable situations, otherwise he had it right but had to adapt because of others evil plans.

Did Clark have an evil plan? No.

But Brainiac, Tess and even Green Arrow had their own plans.

Brainiac's evil plan not forgivable.
Tess's misguided plan possibly forgivable because she seems to be misguided.
Green Arrows dumb plan probably forgivable because he was trying to protect Clark while stupidly trying the impossible heroism.

Who had the better and most logical plan? Clark's four plans were still better at the end of the day.

If he was able to execute the first plan, then noone else would be involved and noone would have been killed, including Davis/Doomsday.

The first plan was perfect but then Brainiac happen and the everyone else wanted a piece of the action that should have soley belongs to Clark. It was his responsibility and his destiny. It was not just he that didn't believe it but everyone else didn't and was much worse than he was.

Clark still had the better logic, everyone else keep changing the situation and he had to adapt his logic to suit. But even logic does not stand well without extra knowledge hidden away.


I also agree with what you said! Clark's first plan was perfect and of course Chloe had to come in CK's way and stop him in doing the right thing. And now the blame is on Clark (at least by some people). No it's Chloe's fault, what was she thinking? That she can stop the beast? Spend the rest of her life babysitting Davis? It was so naive I just can't believe people keep forgetting that. And even Davis told her that it didn't work anymore, so Chloe was the only person that belived that she still could calm the beast, but people kept dying all over in the vicinity of their whereabouts so I don't know if she was blinded by love or did Brainiac turn her brain into a peanut after he left? :)

anyhow Doomsday cannot be killed so Oliver's plan was DOOMED from the beginning, and I am sure that Dooms isn't dead right now, simply taking him underground won't stop him for long!

[SnowBird]

I'm not saying Ollie is above blame - I'm saying that ALL involved inadvertantly contributed to the sequence of events that led to Jimmy's death, including Clark. I stand by my view that it is grossly unfair to use the fact that Ollie employed Jimmy against Ollie, for the reasons I give above. I also note that no one has an answer to what I see as the central flaw in Clark's plan - the fact that he did not anticipate Davis's malicious intent. A good plan is one that takes into account all eventualities - Clark's plan didn't, and was therefore flawed. He could not have watched over Jimmy and Chloe forever, so sooner or later tragedy would have struck as Davis's jealousy overwhelmed him. Clark's approach was flawed, just like Ollie's - I'm not trying to say Clark is wrong and Ollie is right, just that both had got it wrong, but both were doing their best in a difficult situation.

MOD EDIT The future could be written in a thousand ways as to what Davis would or wouldn't do. If Clark's plan to divide Davis from Doomsday could have been executed without interference, Davis could have been taken somewhere for observation to see if he was a threat. He could have been under arrest for his past crimes. He might never have been around Chloe and Jimmy ever again. Clark had plans that would have worked if left alone, and saying that they were flawed because of something that could happen in the future is not a good reason at all and I can't accept it.

[Lindros]

Clark had the perfect plan to send Davis/Doomsday to the Phantom Zone...But Brainiac/Chloe convince him otherwise. (of course to leave an vessel for Zod)

Clark's alternate less than perfect plan. Divide Davis from Doomsday and send Doomsday to the Phantom Zone...Tess interfered by stealing and destroying the crystal.

Clark's final reason enough plan to divide Davis from Doomsday and bury Doomsday a mile underground...The pre-leaguers turned on Clark and.Ollie shot Clark with a Kryptonite Dart, resulting in Chloe using the black Kryptonite to separate Davis/DD without Clark, resulting in Doomsday going on a rampage. Clark then had to come to the rescue to bury Doomsday underground.

As you see Clark had the perfect plan at the beginning, but then he wanted to see the best out of people even Davis. He wanted hope. But as he tried to allow for people's reasoning, he changed his original plan and then change again to account for the destroyed Crystal and then was forced to change by GA and the pre-leaguers. On hindsight, the sending of DD/Davis to the Phantom Zone, if it was not for Brainiac/Chloe wanting to leave an vessel for Zod.

Clark was not able to know that Brainiac was in Chloe so he would have not agreed otherwise.
Clark was not to know that Tess was obeying orders to steal and smash the Crystal and he couldn't do anything about that.
Clark was betrayed, there was nothing he could have really done.

So he ends up using a 4th plan.

Those were unavoidable situations, otherwise he had it right but had to adapt because of others evil plans.

Did Clark have an evil plan? No.

But Brainiac, Tess and even Green Arrow had their own plans.

Brainiac's evil plan not forgivable.
Tess's misguided plan possibly forgivable because she seems to be misguided.
Green Arrows dumb plan probably forgivable because he was trying to protect Clark while stupidly trying the impossible heroism.

Who had the better and most logical plan? Clark's four plans were still better at the end of the day.

If he was able to execute the first plan, then noone else would be involved and noone would have been killed, including Davis/Doomsday.

The first plan was perfect but then Brainiac happen and the everyone else wanted a piece of the action that should have soley belongs to Clark. It was his responsibility and his destiny. It was not just he that didn't believe it but everyone else didn't and was much worse than he was.

Clark still had the better logic, everyone else keep changing the situation and he had to adapt his logic to suit. But even logic does not stand well without extra knowledge hidden away.

If the Clark at the end of the show was really clark, (Which I doubt), then I think this is the reason he said "Clark Kent is Dead" He now recognizes that his friends, and his humanity have been holding him back from his potential. Expect a much darker, more withdrawn CK next year, at least at the beginning.

[smithy698]

MOD EDIT The future could be written in a thousand ways as to what Davis would or wouldn't do. If Clark's plan to divide Davis from Doomsday could have been executed without interference, Davis could have been taken somewhere for observation to see if he was a threat. He could have been under arrest for his past crimes. He might never have been around Chloe and Jimmy ever again. Clark had plans that would have worked if left alone, and saying that they were flawed because of something that could happen in the future is not a good reason at all and I can't accept it.

But where is the evidence that Clark or anyone else would have put Davis under observation, or locked him up? Clark was working on the basis that Doomsday was the problem, and therefore once freed from his influence Davis would be okay. Of course we can't be certain what would have happened, but what I'm suggesting is not unreasonable.

If we are ruling out speculation about what might have happened in the future then we'll have to rule out speculation about how Ollie's approach might have worked if allowed to run its course. I'm not suggesting that we do this - I'm just arguing that the critics of Clark and Ollie can both speculate reasonably about what might have happened on the available evidence.

[justme_007]

Clark imo

[SnowBird]

But 1) where is the evidence that Clark or anyone else would have put Davis under observation, or locked him up? Clark was working on the basis that Doomsday was the problem, and therefore once freed from his influence Davis would be okay. Of course we can't be certain what would have happened, but what I'm suggesting is not unreasonable.

If we are ruling out speculation about what might have happened in the future then we'll have to rule out speculation about how 2) Ollie's approach might have worked if allowed to run its course. I'm not suggesting that we do this - I'm just arguing that the critics of Clark and Ollie can both speculate reasonably about what might have happened on the available evidence.

1) That's right. I threw my speculations out there because you did. The thing is, we don't know what the future could have been so why even consider it at all as to whether Clark's plan was flawed?

2) Ollie's approach would never had worked. He wanted to kill Davis before the beast had a chance to come out. Davis can't be killed as he is immortal. Ollie's plan was flawed and doomed to fail from the beginning and on top of that he took out Clark, the only one that had any chance at all of helping them.

Since you think Olliver's plan could have succeeded, are you also suggesting that you approve of his idea to KILL Davis?

[Myrddin]

<TABLE class="" id=bodyDrftID cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD id=drftMsgContent>A chain of events is why Jimmy is dead, and Doomsday was freed to kill.

Clark had a good plan to send Davis/Doomsday to the Phantom Zone...Chloe interfered.

Clark's alternate plan. Divide Davis from Doomsday and send Doomsday to the Phantom Zone...Tess interfered by stealing and destroying the crystal.

Clark's final plan to divide Davis from Doomsday and bury Doomsday a mile underground...The Justice League turned on Clark and.Ollie shot Clark with a Kryptonite Dart, resulting in Chloe using the black Kryptonite to separate Davis/DD without Clark, resulting in Doomsday going on a rampage. Clark then had to come to the rescue to bury Doomsday underground.

Why was Jimmy even involved. We go back to Ollie hiring Jimmy and sending him to the Daily Planet on a recon mission to find information from Tess' computer on where Chloe and Davis were hiding. Jimmy found out where they were and went himself to investigate. Jimmy saved Clark from the Kryptonite. Clark asked Jimmy to take Chloe and Davis to Chloe's wedding present, a building. Jimmy wouldn't even be involved if Ollie hadn't put him on his payroll and sent him to the Daily Planet.

At every turn, Clark's plans were undermined. He was left out of the loop, didn't know all the facts, friends turned against him, incompetent friends taking it upon themselves to try do Clark's job for him. Clark still doesn't know all the facts that led to Jimmy's death so he takes the blame, and absolutely no one comes forward to say, I share the blame.

It's really pathetic that Ollie shot Clark with Kryptonite. On top of that everyone left Clark alone defenseless. Ollie could not possibly kill Davis because nothing could kill him, but yet, Ollie thought he knew best. Chloe thought she knew best when she kept Clark from sending Davis to the PZ. . The JL thought they knew best by siding with Ollie. None of them knew best except for Clark. If they would have left Clark to do what he knew best, the tragedies that happened wouldn't have happened. If Ollie wouldn't have hired Jimmy, he would still be alive.

Many people ready to blame Clark which is so wrong. Instead, a series of events by Clark's so called friends is to blame. Ollie was one of the major players that deserves a big share of the blame. Clark being Clark is the only one MAN enough to accept blame that isn't even his because he doesn't know all the facts. Clark is actually a real hero in all this. The other ones involved should be hanging their heads in shame and thanking Clark for cleaning up their Doomsday mess in Metropolis. No one came forward to confess, not even Chloe who was talking to Clark before he left. She should have told him about her part in Jimmy's death so Clark wouldn't carry the burden but no, Clark is blaming his humanity for events out of his control which has caused him to follow his Kryptonian side. Like I said before, with friends like Clark has, who needs enemies.





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Very well put.

I actually do think that the JLA realized how much they messed up. I think that is why they "disappeared" at the end. They could not face anyone... not Chloe, not Clark, not even each other. So they just left.

One hope that I have for next season is to see how their betrayal is resolved.

[Tompouce]

Chloe made him realize that he would have felt like crap sending Davis and Doomsday into the PZ. Which he later admitted that she was right! MOD EDIT It isn't his weakness to want to help people, it's his strength, and at that moment he wasn't thinking straight. His best friend knows him more than anyone else, once he actually thought about it he realized she was right. That's why he found another way, he figured he would separate the two and then send just Doooms into the PZ. He didn't find that way sooner because TPTB wanted to stretch things out. But they didn't add that line from Clark to Chloe just for the hell of it! It meant something and it still does. They didn't have Clark think of a better way of handling Davis/Dooms if Chloe wasn't right in this situation. Even though they messed it up in the end and made Davis into a crazy psycho killer anyway; Clark and Chloe still had the right intentions. There is no reason for blaming Chloe when Clark himself said that she was right and he found a better way. But I guess she gets the blame for everything anyway.:rolleyes:

I agree with both Clark and Ollie. Clark found a better way to get rid of him, but it also cost people lives because it took him a while to think of it. Ollie wanted to deal with the situation right away. But I don't see how Ollie could have killed him, but I don't see how Clark did either.
MOD EDIT. After/with Clark she is the character I feel closer to BUT in this situation I find she was wrong. And remember, in another epi before the one we are talking about, she said to Clark it was time to kill Lex. So what about Chloe helping Clark to find his way ?
To me, the way she acted in the FOS is unforgivable. I am still saying she didn't do it as usual, to help him to make choices, to prevent him from doing something bad. No, this time, it was different. I lived that once, a kind of situation when someone used one of my weakness and it made me doubt, the consequences were quite the same. I was right and then I made the wrong choice. That is why I say that. This scene gives me this feeling. I don't say I am right, this is the way I see it and it will always be in this specific situation

[smithy698]

1) That's right. I threw my speculations out there because you did. The thing is, we don't know what the future could have been so why even consider it at all as to whether Clark's plan was flawed?

2) Ollie's approach would never had worked. He wanted to kill Davis before the beast had a chance to come out. Davis can't be killed as he is immortal. Ollie's plan was flawed and doomed to fail from the beginning and on top of that he took out Clark, the only one that had any chance at all of helping them.

Since you think Olliver's plan could have succeeded, are you also suggesting that you approve of his idea to KILL Davis?


I agree that we can't be certain what the future might hold. However, if it is okay to say that Ollie's plan wouldn't have worked without seeing it in action i.e. speculation on a reasonable assessment of the evidence, then it is equally okay to speculate that Clark's plan might have failed on a reasonable assessment of the evidence.

You can't say on the one hand that Ollie's plan would "never have worked" and then throw out all consideration of what might have happened had Clark's plan been put into effect. You can't have your cake and eat it - either you allow speculation about the future based on evidence, or you don't.

You can't apply one standard to one character and another standard to another character. I believe that you can draw reasonable conclusions about the future - and the flaws in BOTH (yes, I said both) Ollie and Clark's plans.

[abbaspice1]

I agree that we can't be certain what the future might hold. However, if it is okay to say that Ollie's plan wouldn't have worked without seeing it in action i.e. speculation on a reasonable assessment of the evidence, then it is equally okay to speculate that Clark's plan might have failed on a reasonable assessment of the evidence.

You can't say on the one hand that Ollie's plan would "never have worked" and then throw out all consideration of what might have happened had Clark's plan been put into effect. You can't have your cake and eat it - either you allow speculation about the future based on evidence, or you don't.

You can't apply one standard to one character and another standard to another character. I believe that you can draw reasonable conclusions about the future - and the flaws in BOTH (yes, I said both) Ollie and Clark's plans.

It was BLANTANTLY OBVIOUS from this season that Ollie's plan to KILL Davis wouldn't work. Davis cannot be KILLED, he will come back even stronger. I know at least 3 episodes that proved this fact.

So Ollie's plan was flawed from the get go.

[smithy698]

It was BLANTANTLY OBVIOUS from this season that Ollie's plan to KILL Davis wouldn't work. Davis cannot be KILLED, he will come back even stronger. I know at least 3 episodes that proved this fact.

So Ollie's plan was flawed from the get go.

Don't disagree - I did say the flaws in BOTH plans.

[SnowBird]

I agree that we can't be certain what the future might hold. However, if it is okay to say that Ollie's plan wouldn't have worked without seeing it in action i.e. speculation on a reasonable assessment of the evidence, then it is equally okay to speculate that Clark's plan might have failed on a reasonable assessment of the evidence.

You can't say on the one hand that Ollie's plan would "never have worked" and then throw out all consideration of what might have happened had Clark's plan been put into effect. You can't have your cake and eat it - either you allow speculation about the future based on evidence, or you don't.

You can't apply one standard to one character and another standard to another character. I believe that you can draw reasonable conclusions about the future - and the flaws in BOTH (yes, I said both) Ollie and Clark's plans.

For a fact we know that Ollie's plan didn't work. Saying Clark's plan was flawed is only speculation on your part because he never got to put it totally into action. I'll take facts over someone's guesses anytime.

[smithy698]

For a fact we know that Ollie's plan didn't work. Saying Clark's plan was flawed is only speculation on your part because he never got to put it totally into action. I'll take facts over someone's guesses anytime.

Do we? Was Chloe's intervention part of Ollie's plan? I don't think so.

I think it is perfectly legitimate to speculate that both plans would have failed on the available evidence. It is not legitimate, in my view, to speculate about the outcome of Ollie's plan, whilst ruling that any speculation about Clark's plan is unacceptable. That's saying one rule for one character, and another rule for another.

[SnowBird]

Do we? Was Chloe's intervention part of Ollie's plan? I don't think so.

I think it is perfectly legitimate to speculate that both plans would have failed on the available evidence. It is not legitimate, in my view, to speculate about the outcome of Ollie's plan, whilst ruling that any speculation about Clark's plan is unacceptable. That's saying one rule for one character, and another rule for another.

Fact Ollie's plan would not succeed. Davis is immortal and cannot be killed.

Fact: To many people interferred in Clark's plans causing death and destruction which was not Clark's fault.

Above are facts with no speculation.

Ollie was wrong! Trying to make Clark look like a bad guy to try to make Oliver look better isn't getting anywhere with me. MOD EDIT I do hope that Oliver can be redeemed next season. I don't like to see him shown in this light since I originally liked the Green Arrow character.

[ox007]

The only way to stop Doomsday is to send him into the PZ, so Clark was right from the beginning, his latter plans that were not as good as his original plan, were the outcomes of the people that interfered in CK's plan(s). First was Chloe, and then was Oliver, cause if Clark separated Davis from Doomsday, he wouldn't let him to go on a rampage. Stabbing Clark in the back was a treachery (just as the Ceasar was betrayed, but fortunately Clark was saved by Henry James :) )

[MountainSniper]

Hi boys n girls!

Oliver is right about Davis/Doomsday ie Kill the freaking Space Monster ASAP because Clark does not have the moral right or the intelligence or the track record to roll the dice on the existence of mankind.

However Oliver also screwed up big time. Oliver is stupid shooting Clark because in facing such tachical inferiority in super powers vs a Space Monster it is crazy to split your forces. The best chance the Justice League has against the “Ultimate Destroyer” Space monster is the super powers of its strongest but also mentally retarded member Clark Kent.

It is a stupid insane tactical blunder on Oliver’s part since even a stupid Clark Kent is better when facing a Space Monster than a neutralized by Kryptonite Clark Kent.

Following Clark’s plan is just about as stupid as anyone can get on this show. It is historical fact that Clark’s plans are always disasters.

Mankind’s fate was hanging by a thread from Zod and Clark refused to follow his super intelligent space daddy’s plan to destroy the vessel and the net result was dozens, hundreds, thousands, millions of innocent people killed in world wide riots and Zoners/Phantoms escaping who killed even more people.

It was only due to fate, circumstance and dumb luck rather than any intelligent thinking on Clark’s part that Zod didn’t take over the world.

The next time the fate of Mankind was at the edge Clark tried to send the Legion immediately back to the future just after they saved his life in the Barn from the guy with the axe because he wanted to handle the problem of Brainiac on his own.

It was only due to the Legion refusing to follow Clark’s plan for them to return to the future that Brainiac was defeated by using their special powers. The episode Legion was another example of how stupid it is to split your forces like Clark wanted to do in the face of a powerful and intelligent enemy.

Even if Clark stumples onto an decent idea like send Davis/Doomsday to the Phantom Zone to save lives and get some breathing room until you learn how to kill him Clark never follows through ie the only advice Clark ever takes is stupid advice like that from emotionally confused Chloe Sullivan regarding a murderious monster from outer space.

What Oliver should have done is force/beg/threaten etc Clark take him to the fortress so they both could ask Clark’s super intelligent space daddy what is the best way to take out Davis/Doomsday. Maybe if they got some decent Intel from Jor-el they would have had it together and Jimmy might not have ended up with a pipe in his guts.

The history of the TV Show Smallville has shown two things to be true of this version of Clark Kent:

1. Clark is too stupid to pour water out of his boot even with the instructions written on the bottom of the sole.

2. When it comes to leadership ability Clark doesn’t have what it takes to lead thirsty troops to free beer let alone to fight the “ultimate destroyer” from outer space.

And that is my two dirhams worth.

Cheers Mountain Sniper

[SnowBird]

4890670What Oliver should have done is force/beg/threaten etc Clark take him to the fortress so they both could ask Clark’s super intelligent space daddy what is the best way to take out Davis/Doomsday[/b]. Maybe if they got some decent Intel from Jor-el they would have had it together and Jimmy might not have ended up with a pipe in his guts.

Clark can't go to Jor-El because he is absent and the Fortress is damaged.

Clark's idea to bury Doomsday worked to keep mankind safe saving millions of people.

Jimmy's death was unfortunate but no one could predict this would happen. It's easy to come up with ideas when you know what has happened already but none of the characters had hindsight to avoid Jimmy's death, and now it is done and over. Accept it or not, that's the way it is.

[smithy698]

Fact Ollie's plan would not succeed. Davis is immortal and cannot be killed.

Fact: To many people interferred in Clark's plans causing death and destruction which was not Clark's fault.

Above are facts with no speculation.

Ollie was wrong! Trying to make Clark look like a bad guy to try to make Oliver look better isn't getting anywhere with me. This debate is going nowhere since we are at a dead end. I do hope that Oliver can be redeemed next season. I don't like to see him shown in this light since I originally liked the Green Arrow character.


It is equally a fact that no one can be certain (note: certain i.e. definite, without any doubt) that Clark's plan would have worked.

I'm not trying to make Clark look like a bad guy - I'm just suggesting that his plan did not take into account all possibilities. Equally I've never said Ollie's plan would definitely have worked - it probably wouldn't have done.

I see everyone trying to grapple with a difficult situation. Plans overlapped, the unexpected happened, but throughout people were trying to do their best. It is beyond me why this is so controversial - some people seem so hypersensitive about even the slightest hint that maybe Clark got something wrong.

MOD EDIT

[Rueven]

Clark

That is the whole point of Superman.

He is the moral voice, the light, that we all aspire and look up to. That we all hope that we can live up to. Quite frankly, we need that. Even if we cannot be that ourselves, we need that light/hope somewhere in the world.

I love Batman and Ollie.

But the world NEEDS a Superman.

This is where its at. THIS is superman. This is what I tell my 5 year old son. Couldn't have been said better. If the writters take the story anywhere....this is where it should go.

[Kneel before Zod]

Oliver is wrong. He isn't willing to even try to find an alternative to ending Davis' life. He's so bloodthirsty that he is willing to take out Clark just to make sure that Clark doesn't try to save Davis. Clark was looking for the good in Davis, and didn't want to give up on him. He was just doing what he thought was right. Jimmy may have died, but the moral of the story is that you can't save everyone.

[MountainSniper]

Hi Snowbird,


Clark can't go to Jor-El because he is absent and the Fortress is damaged.

What evidence do you have of this? When did this happen?

Brainiac took over the fortress and caged Davis/Doomsday in a huge block of crystal.

Then in the next episode Legion Brainiac took over the computers at the Isis foundation, the people at the Daily Planet, Lana at the Isis foundation but when the Legion defeated Brainiac at the end of the episode his powers were broken and we saw everything go back to normal.

The screens on the computers at Isis, Lana Lang and the people at the Daily Planet all went back to normal. We then saw the crystal break at the fortress releasing Davis Bloom showing Brainiac was conclusively defeated and taken to the future.

So was the fortress destroyed or taken over (for the third or forth time) etc in a subsequent episode to Legion?

I was on operations in the land of bad things off and on during the season so could have missed such an event so if there was such an event after the episode Legion what was it and in what episode did it happen?


Clark's idea to bury Doomsday worked to keep mankind safe saving millions of people.

No it didn’t. If Clark would have hung around for a few more minutes at the fortress and asked Jor-el how to kill the super powered Space Monster when Jor-el told him about the “ultimate destroyer” then maybe Clark would have saved some lives.

Instead Clark being the MOD EDIT took off without any solid Intel and Davis/Doomsday went on his killing spree filling the cornfield.

Then Clark being theMOD EDIT always ignores the good advice from Jor-el and Jimmy and instead takes the emotionally troubled Chloe’s advice and instead of sending Davis/Doomsday to the Phantom zone a whole bunch of people are killed by Davis/Doomsday after that fiasco.

The simple fact is SV’s Clark Kent is an self righteous moron that gets dozens, hundreds, thousands, millions of innocent people killed when ever he tries to follow his deadly so called moral code.

With Davis/Doomsday in the Phantom Zone you have to write off the lives of everyone guilty or innocent in the PZ but at least you have a good chance of the Phantom Zone holding Davis/Doomsday at least until Clark can get some decent Intel on how to kill him.

Instead exactly the same as last time they buried him Davis/Doomsday is going to dig his way out of the hole and kill a whole bunch of people next season.

Once again MOD EDIT Clark and his deadly so called moral code is going to pump up the body count of dead innocents.


Jimmy's death was unfortunate but no one could predict this would happen.

Jor-el directly to Clark describes Davis/Doomsday as the “ultimate destroyer”.

Gee with that little tidbit of information from your super intelligent space daddy combined with all those people that Davis planted in the cornfield how much of an IQ does it take to maybe just assume that Davis is not just a simple high spirited dude off the straight and narrow path of rightness but a mass murdering monster with super powers from Outer Space?

MOD EDIT

Cheers Mountain Sniper

[rebecavaldez]

Clark is obviously a MOD EDIT

[EarlTheEradicator]

You Know im most likely gonna get chewed up for saying this BUT Oliver is right he is more seasoned when it comes to the real world. Green Arrow Fights crime all over the world hes a Billionaire and CEO of a Company. Hes more mature and hes has the will power to get the job done. As for Clark well there would be no Smallville without him i just wish he would move on to bigger and better things other than Smallville like Ollie told clark theres a bigger world outside of Smallville.

[SnowBird]

Hi Snowbird,

What evidence do you have of this? When did this happen?

Brainiac took over the fortress and caged Davis/Doomsday in a huge block of crystal.

Then in the next episode Legion Brainiac took over the computers at the Isis foundation, the people at the Daily Planet, Lana at the Isis foundation but when the Legion defeated Brainiac at the end of the episode his powers were broken and we saw everything go back to normal.

The screens on the computers at Isis, Lana Lang and the people at the Daily Planet all went back to normal. We then saw the crystal break at the fortress releasing Davis Bloom showing Brainiac was conclusively defeated and taken to the future.

So was the fortress destroyed or taken over (for the third or forth time) etc in a subsequent episode to Legion?

I looked through a few episodes and in Legion, Chloe/Brainiac said to Clark while in the Fortress, "Your father is gone and all the knowledge this Fortress ever held is now mine." Brainiac was taken out of Chloe making a ball which is suppose to become Brainiac 5 by the Legion. Guessing that maybe the knowledge of the Fortress is in the Brainiac ball.

Since then, Jor-El has not spoken and the Fortress has been darker than usual. MOD EDITI see it as the Fortress is still damaged and Jor-El is still missing. I believe that the writters wanted to close all options for Clark to get help from Jor-El, along with Davis being killed different ways making him invinceable. This was all leading to an almost impossible task of getting rid of Davis/DD, but Clark thought of a way and Doomsday is buried a mile deep underground which lines up to the version of Doomsday where he is unearthed and Superman and Doomsday fight to the death.

----- Added 5 Minutes later -----


Clark is obviously a MOD EDIT!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/snowbird329/Avatars/best-dressed2.jpg

----- Added 17 Minutes later -----


You Know im most likely gonna get chewed up for saying this BUT Oliver is right he is more seasoned when it comes to the real world. Green Arrow Fights crime all over the world hes a Billionaire and CEO of a Company. Hes more mature and hes has the will power to get the job done. As for Clark well there would be no Smallville without him i just wish he would move on to bigger and better things other than Smallville like Ollie told clark theres a bigger world outside of Smallville.

I agree that Ollie is a man of the world and educated, but he sometimes lacks common sense and this has gotten him in trouble multiple times. I'll take Clark's actual on the job training from dealing with aliens and the meteor infected. Yes, he has made some mistakes but he has learned from them and in my opinion was better suited to deal with Doomsday both mentally and physically. Like they say, "Proof is in the pudding." In otherwords, who was the one who actually took care of Doomsday?" I'll give you a hint. It wasn't Oliver, the Green Arrow. There might be a bigger world outside of Metropolis but Doomsday was on Clark's turf.

[VAILIMA]

I agree that Ollie is a man of the world and educated, but he sometimes lacks common sense and this has gotten him in trouble multiple times. I'll take Clark's actual on the job training from dealing with aliens and the meteor infected. Yes, he has made some mistakes but he has learned from them and in my opinion was better suited to deal with Doomsday both mentally and physically. Like they say, "Proof is in the pudding." In otherwords, who was the one who actually took care of Doomsday?" I'll give you a hint. It wasn't Oliver, the Green Arrow. There might be a bigger world outside of Metropolis but Doomsday was on Clark's turf.

I agree, choosing not to kill Davis and dealing only with the Doomsday Beast is about as close to Superman as this Clark Kent has come

[MountainSniper]

Hi SnowBird,


I looked through a few episodes and in Legion, Chloe/Brainiac said to Clark while in the Fortress, "Your father is gone and all the knowledge this Fortress ever held is now mine." Brainiac was taken out of Chloe making a ball which is suppose to become Brainiac 5 by the Legion. Guessing that maybe the knowledge of the Fortress is in the Brainiac ball. .

MOD EDIT
Brainiac said the above to Clark when Brainiac still had his powers and had not been yet defeated by the Legion.

Once Brainiac was defeated and lost his powers we all saw on the TV screen Lana, the people at the Daily Planet, the computers at Isis etc all return to normal. Then as the definitive proof that Brainiac has also lost any power he had over the fortress we saw Davis/Doomsday who Brainiac had encased in a huge crystal at the fortress break out of the crystal.

MOD EDIT premise that Lana Lang, ordinary people at the daily planet, the Isis computers are more sophisticated and resilient and recovered when Brainiac was defeated but the Kryptonian technology of the fortress thousands of years in advance of anything on Earth is still broken?

MOD EDIT it is just coincidence that Davis/Doomsday is suddenly able to free himself from the crystal Brainiac used to hold him just after Brainiac was defeated by the Legion?

The bottom line is with the defeat of Brianiac and the return to normality of Lana, the Daily Planet people and the Isis computers along with the failure of Brainiac’s imprisonment of Davis/Doomsday every thing is back to normal the exact same way it always works in all TV shows.


I believe that the writters wanted to close all options for Clark to get help from Jor-El,

Why would the writers suddenly out of left field decide to make sure they close off the intelligent options so Clark doesn’t look like an extra slow “Forest Gump”?

The writers never before have ever shown SV's Clark Kent with any common sense when it comes to getting and taking his super intelligent space daddy’s advice.

The reality is, as usual, that Clark is a MOD EDIT idiot that thinks he knows better than everyone else including his super intelligent space daddy and sure enough a whole lot of innocent people are going to be killed due to Clark’s moronic plan.

Same as usual before dealing with Zod and same this time dealing with Davis/Doomsday and also the same as expected next season when Davis/Doomsday digs his way out and starts adding to his body count.


but Clark thought of a way and Doomsday is buried a mile deep underground…………….Like they say, "Proof is in the pudding." In otherwords, who was the one who actually took care of Doomsday?" I'll give you a hint. It wasn't Oliver, the Green Arrow. There might be a bigger world outside of Metropolis but Doomsday was on Clark's turf.

The proof is in the pudding but it is also buried in the cornfield.

If Clark had an ounce of common sense he would have listened to his super intellegent space daddy when Jor-el told Clark about Doomsday being the ultimate destroyer.

Instead as always Clark runs off with out any decent Intel and as usual the net result is a whole bunch of innocents being killed and then buried in the cornfield.

Then when Clark has a chance to stop the mass murder by sending Davis/Doomsday to the Phantom Zone once again he takes terrible advice from an emotional wreak Chloe Sullivan and then as usual when it comes to Clark's actions Davis/Doomsday gets a chance to kill even more people.

Smallville’s Clark Kent is like that loser in your brick that you hope will just blow his own head off when he is field stripping his rifle and you just hope he doesn't take of your mates with him when he slots himself.

Clark’s plan is a dud as usual and the proof will be next season when Doomsday happily fills up a couple more corn fields with innocents.

SV’s Clark Kent couldn’t fight sleep.

Cheers Mountain Sniper

----- Added 12 Minutes later -----



Hi Vailima,


I agree, choosing not to kill Davis and dealing only with the Doomsday Beast is about as close to Superman as this Clark Kent has come

Right O!

That plan really worked out well for Jimmy with the pipe in his guts and everyone planted in the cornfield.

Davis is not some alteristic sensitive parametic but a murder in his own right when as a child he killed his driver, again to protect his secret and then facilitates mass murder by acting as camouflage for Doomsday and hiding the bodies.

Clark is a self righteous moron to accept the death of so many innocents as a price worth paying to be able to say he kept to his “deadly” so called moral code which just happens to include not allowing a serial killer from outer space to come to harm.

Cheers Mountain Sniper

[ox007]

If Clark hadn't been interrupted by Chloe, he would have sent Doomie to the PZ and that was the best solution, as Doomsday cannot be killed and Clark had learned that he can't be killed and Ollie wanted to kill him anyhows, how I have no idea, he would probably make him only stronger in the process. And the death of Jimmy couldn't have been predicted that easily as everyone thought Davis doesn't want to kill, and that it is his Doomsday side that makes him do it.

Whether that was smart reasoning I don't know, but Clark would have sent Davis/Doomsday to the PZ at first so anyway both problems would have been solved, there would be no splitting the two, etc.

[SnowBird]

The bottom line is with the defeat of Brianiac and the return to normality of Lana, the Daily Planet people and the Isis computers along with the failure of Brainiac’s imprisonment of Davis/Doomsday every thing is back to normal the exact same way it always works in all TV shows.

The reality is, as usual, that Clark is a MOD EDIT idiot that thinks he knows better than everyone else including his super intelligent space daddy and sure enough a whole lot of innocent people are going to be killed due to Clark’s moronic plan.

More proof that Jor-El is missing from the Fortress. In episode 15, "Infamous", Chloe met Clark when the military was after Clark. Chloe asks Clark if he can go to Jor-El and ask for a second chance. Clark says, "He disappeared when the Fortress went dark (end of Abyss ep9).

Smallville isn't Star Trek. MOD EDIT doesn't hold water since Clark can not go to Jor-El for help. Clark came up with a working plan to bury Doomsday in the ground which was very smart of him. Doomsday isn't going to dig out. He is pinned under a mile of dirt with no room to move in order to start digging. Clark isn't directly responsible for Jimmy's death with so many others interferring in Clark's plans.

MOD EDIT

[MountainSniper]

Hi ox007,


If Clark hadn't been interrupted by Chloe, he would have sent Doomie to the PZ and that was the best solution,

Clark doesn’t get to use Chloe as some get out of jail free card so she takes the blame for that stupid decision.

Clark was directly told by Jor-el that Davis/Doomsday is the ultimate destroyer. Clark knew exactly what Davis/Doomsday is and he knows the fate of humanity is hanging in the balance.

Clark also knows Chloe is in a mixed up emotional state with her emotional connection to Davis/Doomsday and marriage break up etc.

Clark should have manned up and told Chloe sorry no rolling of the dice when the fate of the world is on the line so Davis/Doomsday goes to the Phantom Zone as a holding pen until I figure out how to kill him.

Clark is the one with the super powers and the crystal and for once all he needed to do is man up and make the call of a one way ticket to the Phantom zone..

Instead as usual when it comes to Clark’s decisions/plans etc a whole bunch more innocents got killed including Jimmy. And it is not over yet, next season even more people are going to be killed by Davis/Doomsday.



And the death of Jimmy couldn't have been predicted that easily as everyone thought Davis doesn't want to kill, and that it is his Doomsday side that makes him do it.

MOD EDIT
Davis is a killer and he has been so since he was a child and killed his driver. Davis is not some good guy, altruistic paramedic but instead is genetically designed camouflage for Doomsday so the “ultimate destroyer” can be more effective in killing in an Earth environment.

Davis killed in his own right to protect his secret and he lured in humans for Doomsday in full Space Monster mode to kill and he further facilitated the mass murder spree by hiding the bodies in a corn field.

Davis/Doomsday is not a Dr Jekyll and Mr. Hyde scenario but instead Davis/Doomsday is both parts of the same ultimate destroyer.

After Jimmy screaming at everyone about Davis’s true nature and then Clark having Jimmy's warning confirmed to his face with the hard evidence of a cornfield full of bodies you would think that even someone as stupid as SV’s Clark Kent wouldn’t be so freaking clueless to drop his guard around the killer from outer space such that Jimmy ends up with a pipe in his guts.

Cheers Mountain Sniper

[SnowBird]

After Jimmy screaming at everyone about Davis’s true nature and then Clark having Jimmy's warning confirmed to his face with the hard evidence of a cornfield full of bodies you would think that even someone as stupid as SV’s Clark Kent wouldn’t be so freaking clueless to drop his guard around the killer from outer space such that Jimmy ends up with a pipe in his guts.

Cheers Mountain Sniper

I know this question wasn't directed at me put I would like to address your statement.

In the episode (Eternal ep18) where Clark finds the bodies in the corn field, is also the episode where Chloe supposedly kills Davis with green Kryptonite and Oliver then buries Davis. The reason Clark lets his guard down is because he thinks Davis/Doomsday is dead and the threat is over.

Next time Clark meets Davis is in episode 20 "Beast" where Clark wants to send Davis to the Phantom Zone but Chloe talks him out of it and she and Davis run away.

In episode "Injustice" episode 21, Clark is looking for Davis but doesn't find him since Chloe and Davis are hiding out.

Clark doesn't see Davis again until he is already divided from DD by Chloe. Clark buries Doomsday in the ground in episode 22 in "Doomsday."

Clark's chances of dealing with Davis/Doomsday are few and far between with everyone trying to interfere so that he doesn't meet Davis from the end of episode 20 till the end of episode 22.

Clark is doing the best he can to try to save Davis which he thinks is the good side. This can be done by splitting Davis and Doomsday with black K and burying Doomsday a mile underground. It's a good plan except everyone thinks they can do a better job and just gets in the way. Jimmy was a casuality but Clark can not be blamed for something that was out of his control. Like I have said before, a series of events is what led up to Davis killing Jimmy.

Look at it like this. A medic saves a life of a soldier. This same soldier later kills a friendly. Would you blame the medic for the murder? Would you blame any doctor, fireman, citizen, etc. if they saved someone and later this person murders someone? Clark's plan was to try to save Davis' life like any doctor would. He couldn't know that Davis was going to kill Jimmy. Clark was not to blame for a murder he had no idea was going to happen.

I don't know if I explained well enough so you will change your mind about Clark, but at least I gave it a try:)

[abbaspice1]

Hi ox007,

MOD EDIT
Davis is a killer and he has been so since he was a child and killed his driver. Davis is not some good guy, altruistic paramedic but instead is genetically designed camouflage for Doomsday so the “ultimate destroyer” can be more effective in killing in an Earth environment.

Davis killed in his own right to protect his secret and he lured in humans for Doomsday in full Space Monster mode to kill and he further facilitated the mass murder spree by hiding the bodies in a corn field.

Davis/Doomsday is not a Dr Jekyll and Mr. Hyde scenario but instead Davis/Doomsday is both parts of the same ultimate destroyer.

Cheers Mountain Sniper

Totally agree with this part. MOD EDIT they want to blieve he was a good guy and was human.

[SnowBird]

Totally agree with this part. MOD EDIT they want to blieve he was a good guy and was human.

I agree. Davis was bad news but Clark doesn't kill so he came up with the best plan possible to divide Davis and DD and it's too bad Clark didn't have the chance to actually carry out the total plan himself. I think the outcome would have turned out better.

[MountainSniper]

Hi SnowBird,


More proof that Jor-El is missing from the Fortress. In episode 15, "Infamous", Chloe met Clark when the military was after Clark. Chloe asks Clark if he can go to Jor-El and ask for a second chance. Clark says, "He disappeared when the Fortress went dark (Legion ep11). .

Ok you are right and I am wrong about the timeline.

However is the time line relevant when you look at Abyss when Jor-el first told Clark about Doomsday.

Episode Abyss:

Clark: I know that we defeated Brainiac, but we may have another problem. When Chloe was losing her memory, she kept seeing the Kryptonian symbol for doom in her mind.

Jor-El: The symbol for doom signifies the ultimate destroyer. The ultimate destroyer is a Kryptonian creature bred for a single purpose -- to kill. It adapts and evolves to any attack. It is virtually unstoppable. And it appears it has made its way to Earth.

Clark: So Brainiac was trying to contact this thing, using Chloe as a vessel.

Jor-El: If that is true, then it is likely the creature will find her soon.

Clark: I don't care how powerful it is. I'll take it on, like I have everything else.

Jor-El: I am here for you as well, my son.

Clark: Thank you... Father.

[ Air whooshes ]

Jor-El: My son? My son.

The above is a classic example of Clark not taking the trouble to debrief his super intelligent space daddy about the true nature, capabilities, strengths, weakness etc of the Doomsday threat to the existence of the human race.

As usual Clark thinks he knows every thing and doesn’t even ask a few simple questions about the nature of the threat, what the best method of combating such a threat etc etc etc.

And as usual the net result of Clark being such a moron is he will come up with a stupid plan that will result in the deaths of a whole bunch of dead innocents along with this time Jimmy Olson.

What did Lex Luther say to Jor-el when he first got into the Fortress of Solitude in Superman Returns?

Lex Luther: “Tell me everything, starting with the crystals.”

All Clark had to say is: “Tell me everything, starting with how to stop Doomsday.”



Smallville isn't Star Trek. MOD EDIT doesn't hold water since Clark can not go to Jor-El for help.

As the above dialogue shows Clark made the choice not to debrief Jor-el about Doomsday thus it was Clark’s personal choice not to get help from his super intelligent space daddy on how to handle the Doomsday threat.

And as always when it comes to Clark’s self righteous moronic thinking history will repeat itself and a whole bunch of innocents are now dead along with Jimmy.



Clark came up with a working plan to bury Doomsday in the ground which was very smart of him.

Smart????? Smallville’s Clark Kent is a lot of things but smart isn’t one of them.

If Clark would have just asked his super intelligent space daddy’s opinion he would have learned that burying Doomsday is not going to contain the ultimate destroyer. Next season without a doubt Doomsday will dig himself out and kill even more innocents and it is due to Clark being too stupid to take the trouble to ask Jor-el a few simple questions.

Also a working plan would have been a lot more useful before Davis/Doomsday filled a cornfield with innocents and put a pipe in Jimmy’s guts.


Doomsday isn't going to dig out. He is pinned under a mile of dirt with no room to move in order to start digging

MOD EDIT

Doomsday will most likely kill more people next season than he did this season.


Clark isn't directly responsible for Jimmy's death with so many others interfering in Clark's plans.

Doomsday should be either dead or in the Phantom Zone so it was Clark’s apathy that contributed to Jimmy’s death and the deaths of everyone in the cornfield.

The exact same way Clark’s indecisiveness with the Zod threat in Vessel contributed to the death of dozens, hundreds, thousands, millions of innocents in the riots, Zoner escape etc.

MOD EDIT

I assume it is not against the rules to call Clark Kent a moron?

Cheers Mountain Sniper

[SnowBird]

MOD EDIT please just report problem posts, do not respond.

[BadToad]

The above is a classic example of Clark not taking the trouble to debrief his super intelligent space daddy about the true nature, capabilities, strengths, weakness etc of the Doomsday threat to the existence of the human race.

If Jor-EL is so super intelligent, why didn't he just start talking and offer the information? Maybe because Jor-El is used, or not used, on this show as is needed to prolong the plot, or keep characters in the dark.


I assume it is not against the rules to call Clark Kent a moron?

No, MOD EDIT


Which he later admitted that she was right! MOD EDIT It isn't his weakness to want to help people, it's his strength, and at that moment he wasn't thinking straight.

Actually, as it turns out, he WAS thinking straight, but he allowed Chloe's actions and words sway him. That is his fault, but it also doesn't change the fact that Chloe was deluded, and used her influence to talk Clark out of what was a very good plan. A plan that would actually have been better in hindsight. I understand that Chloe was geniunely convinced she was doing the right thing, but considering what she saw and knew, I question that knowledge. As far as Clark is concerned, it is absolutely his responsibility that he allowed Chloe to influence him in this way, and doubt his own decisions and actions. Especially since we now know that his instincts were correct in this area. I am hoping that we find out that part of Clark's guilt at the end of the episode, and part of the reason he's walking away from his humanity, is due to his allowing Chloe, and Oliver, to hold to much sway over his actions.


His best friend knows him more than anyone else, once he actually thought about it he realized she was right.

Wow, its like Lana never left, isn't it? Just because Clark decides someone is blameless doesn't mean they are. I'm fairly certain Clark is looking back at the events that took place, and is not quite so sure Chloe was right anymore. Because, ultimately, she wasn't. And neither was he for going along with her.


But they didn't add that line from Clark to Chloe just for the hell of it!

No, they added it to pimp up Chloe. Like I said, its like Lana never left.


Even though they messed it up in the end and made Davis into a crazy psycho killer anyway; Clark and Chloe still had the right intentions. There is no reason for blaming Chloe when Clark himself said that she was right and he found a better way. But I guess she gets the blame for everything anyway.

Oh yeah, poor Chloe :rolleyes: MOD EDIT this is a thread where Clark and Oliver are getting most of the criticism.

But really, you have to ask yourself what message the show is sending. Did Clark and Chloe really have the right intentions when the show has Davis murder Jimmy in the finale, thereby showing that both Chloe and Clark misjudged the situation? It would seem to me that, at best, the show is saying Chloe and Clark were fooled, at worst its saying they were both dead wrong. But the outcome is telling us that their decisions weren't right. Because, in the end, Clark's decision to send Davis to the Phantom Zone was the RIGHT one, and Chloe's interference and Clark allowing that led to a series of unfortunate events that ended badly. Clark did come up with workable ideas after that, especially in light of the fact that killing Doomsday seemed to be near impossible. But between Chloe, Tess and Oliver, people kept getting in the way.


Agreed.MOD EDIT blaming Chloe for what happened MOD EDIT when Clark agreed with her and said she was right.

Clark's seal of approval doesn't necessarily mean viewers have to agree with him. And if history serves, the writers sometimes use that to whitewash a character they choose not to hold responsible for anything. And people are blaming Chloe because she bears some responsibility for what happened. MOD EDIT


Furthermore, Clark is a grown man and an alien from another galaxy so he COULD HAVE stopped Chloe from running off with Davis in FOS if he wanted to but he didn't. Why isn't Clark being held accountable for his actions instead of blaming every other character for his behavior and thereby excusing Clark's role in all of this? Do I sense a double standard?

MOD EDIT And as we saw, CLARK held himself responsible for what happened. Chloe really responsible for anything? *crickets chirping* As for Oliver? Well, besides the one manly tear, we don't know if he holds himself responsible for anything or not, though he certainly played a part in botching up the end. Frankly, IMO, its much easier to sympathize with a character that actually looks at their own behavior and says "I screwed up. I should've done things differently." Maybe if Chloe or Oliver does anything like this, I'll feel as inclined to sympathize with them.


MOD EDIT

She needs to go on a guilt trip and give up on her humanity because of that too?

I'd just settle for her owning up to her part in this, and admitting that she made some huge mistakes. Hopefully, that will be coming in S9.

Obviously, Chloe, and Clark, weren't right when Davis ended up murdering Jimmy at the end. You may disagree with the message the show is sending with their finale, but it is what it is. God knows I don't understand the writing, but I'm also not going to pretend it isn't what it is. Davis was a killer. As Davis. Which means Chloe and Clark trying to "save" Davis was wrong. Clark gets that. Chloe? I have no clue.

JMO

[Skaterpen357]

Obviously, Chloe, and Clark, weren't right when Davis ended up murdering Jimmy at the end. You may disagree with the message the show is sending with their finale, but it is what it is. God knows I don't understand the writing, but I'm also not going to pretend it isn't what it is. Davis was a killer. As Davis. Which means Chloe and Clark trying to "save" Davis was wrong. Clark gets that. Chloe? I have no clue. I've been watching this thread for a couple days, and I thought this was a great post. Just to put my two cents in here, though:

I agree Clark is only to blame for being so easily swayed in "Beast;" the rest of Clark's logic was flawless. Furthermore, though, I don't think Clark should regret trying to save Davis. It was actually somewhat refreshing the writers did this, even if it seemed like a bit of a lightswitch. Chloe succeeds in separating Davis from Doomsday, in effect saving him. It's exactly what Clark would have wanted. Davis ended up killing Jimmy of his own accord.

Does this mean Clark was wrong to want to save him? No. Clark believes everyone deserves a second (or in his assessment of Davis, first) chance at good. Davis was saved, took his chance, and rejected good on his own, without Doomsday to hide behind. Clark doesn't force people to do good; he allows them to try. If Davis instead kills Jimmy, that blood is on his hands alone; not Clark's, not Oliver's, and not even Chloe's. It's the same reason Clark has tried to save Lex in the past, and the same reason he's adopted his no-kill policy.

Overall, I'd say Clark is right in this arc, minus the facepalm moment in "Beast."

[MountainSniper]

Hi BadToad,


If Jor-EL is so super intelligent, why didn't he just start talking and offer the information?

Jor-el is super intellegent because he was one of the leading scientists of a technologically advanced alien civilization.

Jor-el warnings regarding Zod, Phantoms, Brainiac, getting blood on the elements etc show that he has knowedge of Kryptonian technology, beings etc which Clark obviously doesn’t from growing up on a farm in Kansas.

Jor-el shouldn’t have to spoon feed the hero the information. The hero should be proactive and seek out, procure, examine and discuss the information instead of being passive.

Also the hero shouldn’t super speed out of the fortress just after telling Jor-el he doesn’t care how powerful Doomsday is since he will just take it on etc because as usual that plan didn’t work out very well for everyone buried in the corn field and Jimmy Olson.

Besides Jor-el sounded surprised Clark just took off immediately after he offered his help to his dimwitted son.

Proof Episode: Abyss

Jor-El: The symbol for doom signifies the ultimate destroyer. The ultimate destroyer is a Kryptonian creature bred for a single purpose -- to kill. It adapts and evolves to any attack. It is virtually unstoppable. And it appears it has made its way to Earth.

Clark: So Brainiac was trying to contact this thing, using Chloe as a vessel.

Jor-El: If that is true, then it is likely the creature will find her soon.

Clark: I don't care how powerful it is. I'll take it on, like I have everything else.

Jor-El: I am here for you as well, my son.

Clark: Thank you... Father.

[ Air whooshes ]

Jor-El: My son? My son.


Maybe because Jor-El is used, or not used, on this show as is needed to prolong the plot, or keep characters in the dark.

From what is happening on my TV screen I would say Jor-el appears to be used on the show to illustrate just how terrible things can get in the world when ever Clark refuses to listen to the words of wisdom from his super intelligent space daddy.

MOD EDIT
All the best.

Cheers Mountain Sniper

[SupermanRox]

Clark doesn’t get to use Chloe as some get out of jail free card so she takes the blame for that stupid decision.

Clark was directly told by Jor-el that Davis/Doomsday is the ultimate destroyer. Clark knew exactly what Davis/Doomsday is and he knows the fate of humanity is hanging in the balance.

Clark also knows Chloe is in a mixed up emotional state with her emotional connection to Davis/Doomsday and marriage break up etc.

Clark should have manned up and told Chloe sorry no rolling of the dice when the fate of the world is on the line so Davis/Doomsday goes to the Phantom Zone as a holding pen until I figure out how to kill him.

Clark is the one with the super powers and the crystal and for once all he needed to do is man up and make the call of a one way ticket to the Phantom zone..

Instead as usual when it comes to Clark’s decisions/plans etc a whole bunch more innocents got killed including Jimmy. And it is not over yet, next season even more people are going to be killed by Davis/Doomsday.


I have to agree with you on this one. It is time to Clark to to be the man he is destined to be. Especially where Chloe is concerned. He should have told her that the fate of the world is far more important than what she wants.

[SnowBird]

MOD EDIT.I also have to say that after further reading about Doomsday, I think you are right that DD is capable of digging his way out from his burial underground. This makes me wonder if he will be back in Smallville again in the future. Peace:)

[SVFancross]

Obviously, Chloe, and Clark, weren't right when Davis ended up murdering Jimmy at the end. You may disagree with the message the show is sending with their finale, but it is what it is. God knows I don't understand the writing, but I'm also not going to pretend it isn't what it is. Davis was a killer. As Davis. Which means Chloe and Clark trying to "save" Davis was wrong. Clark gets that. Chloe? I have no clue.I understand your point of view MOD EDIT
: IMO the show DIDN'T send the message that "Ollie was right". Yes, those words came out of Clark's mouth -- as he was rejecting his humanity. Surely Clark rejecting his humanity is all sorts of "WRONG". What did Clark and Chloe know about what they thought was uniquely Davis:
- his chosen profession was a medic - he saved lives
- he was abandoned by Lionel and lived what Clark thought would have been a nightmare existence from childhood
- he (WRONGLY) rationalized that if he killed bad people he would not become a massive killing machine and that this was better than killing randomly
- he tried to commit suicide rather than continue killing
In short, I think both saw him as a killer but one who was a victim as well and deserved a chance at atonement versus a life of torture (the PZ).

Davis spent an entire year attempting to free the beast or control it. That he would turn around and kill Jimmy right after achieving that freedom is not something reasonable for either to have predicted.

Attempting to save Davis was still the right thing to do. That Clark doesn't it see it that way -- while he's attempting to reject all humanity -- is not a compelling case for me that this is the ultimate message of the show (i.e. killing Davis or sending him to the PZ was right).


As for guilt, MOD EDIT judging Chloe before there is real evidence. I took her "I know exactly who killed Jimmy" as an indication of guilt -- but I understand it was not obvious. But really, WHEN was she going to say "It's all my fault!". Clark was in uber-emo mode and leaving humanity behind. Exactly what good would it have been for Chloe to go on a guilt trip - "No, Clark it's my fault not yours" kind of a message. Would Clark have believed it? No. She immediately recongnized he was seriously taking the wrong tack (abandon humanity) and the one message she shouted out: "It's your humanity that makes you the hero you are!" was a far more important thing to say rather than to disuade him of his super-guilt trip. She only had one shot, she said the right thing.

Now, could the writers have taken the time to have had Chloe say more about her guilt to Dinah or Bart or force something more in the final conversation? Sure. But they chose not to. I don't think it's because she lacks guilt but I don't think it was a priority for the writers for the finale.

We'll see (maybe) in S9 but I expect Chloe holds herself responsible. When in Eternal she looked at the photos and in Beast she looked at her hands, I didn't get a La-De-Da attitude from her. Further, her first words to Jimmy in Beast were "This is all my fault!". I just don't think she holds herself as not responsible.

[BadToad]

In short, I think both saw him as a killer but one who was a victim as well and deserved a chance at atonement versus a life of torture (the PZ).

And I don't think the show stressed this point nearly enough. Not even remotely. Because Chloe making him a casserole, dreaming about making out with him, and then making googely eyes at him while staring at the stars just doesn't seem like she's got a good grip on that murderer part. As for Clark, he just didn't verbalize how he was rationalizing the killing part of Davis. This a frequent error on the part of SV writers who seem to believe that if they keep Clark's POV deliberately vague, they can play more angles.

Of course, the blame is in the writing. This lack of conclusive POV for the characters is a huge SV weakness. One could claim the same thing about Oliver's "Kill Him! Kill Him!" POV when they never explained just how Oliver thought that could be achieved.


Attempting to save Davis was still the right thing to do. That Clark doesn't it see it that way -- while he's attempting to reject all humanity -- is not a compelling case for me that this is the ultimate message of the show (i.e. killing Davis or sending him to the PZ was right).

I think Jimmy getting a pole through the chest is a pretty compelling case. Its pretty hard to argue that Clark sending Davis to the Phantom Zone in Beast would've ultimately been the correct solution in hindsight.


As for guilt, MOD EDITjudging Chloe before there is real evidence. I took her "I know exactly who killed Jimmy" as an indication of guilt -- but I understand it was not obvious. But really, WHEN was she going to say "It's all my fault!".

At ANY time would've been fine with me. IMO, it was really needed from the character. And AM's odd take on some of her lines in Doomsday never seemed to suggest any responsibility or guilt, but instead seemed to project an odd shortness with Clark.


Clark was in uber-emo mode and leaving humanity behind. Exactly what good would it have been for Chloe to go on a guilt trip - "No, Clark it's my fault not yours" kind of a message. Would Clark have believed it? No. She immediately recongnized he was seriously taking the wrong tack (abandon humanity) and the one message she shouted out: "It's your humanity that makes you the hero you are!" was a far more important thing to say rather than to disuade him of his super-guilt trip. She only had one shot, she said the right thing.

And I disagree. I do think there was room in the scene for Chloe to own up to her part in the mess. I actually think it might've done Chloe more good to shift the focus off Clark's guilt, if she articulated to him that she was also feeling that burden. I'm not sure what Chloe said to Clark was helpful at all. It was his belief in humanity that lead to believing in Chloe, by extension Davis, and that led to Jimmy's death. Looking at that conversation, I think Chloe took the wrong path. JMO But honestly, I think Clark's mind was already made up.

For me, what Chloe said, or didn't say, has far less to do with how it would sway Clark, and has more to do with the overall impressions I was left with of Chloe. Chloe feeling responsibility for what happened may not have had any impact on Clark, but it would've made me far more sympathetic to her.


I don't think it's because she lacks guilt but I don't think it was a priority for the writers for the finale.

And IMO, it should've been. Because the impression I get, based on the reactions I've seen about the finale, there are a lot of people who are pretty disappointed in Chloe about now.


We'll see (maybe) in S9 but I expect Chloe holds herself responsible. When in Eternal she looked at the photos and in Beast she looked at her hands, I didn't get a La-De-Da attitude from her.

Honestly, through almost all of this Chlavis stuff, I haven't really got a good handle on where the heck Chloe was coming from, what her real motivation was, or what the nature of her feelings are. IMO, she was all over the map, and her choices were pretty unfathomable.

One could argue with Clark and Oliver's choices, and what they said and did, but I have far less trouble understanding where they were coming from. Chloe? I just really don't know anymore. JMO

[SVFancross]

But honestly, I think Clark's mind was already made up.

That was my point. But we can disagree on the best tact to take -- in the end, I don't think either would have worked.

As for Chloe's mindset - I certainly think the writers intentionally mislead Chloe's motivation during this arc to create "tension". I think they should have been clear too. The Beast phone call is what I focused on as "truth" because it's consistent with the rest of the series and Chloe's previous actions/motivations. This is the woman who "would climb Mt Everest if it meant saving Clark" -- I don't think this is hyperbole for Chloe. I think people can pick out any one of a dozen other moments as their "truth" based on their perspective.

[MountainSniper]

Hi SVFancross,


I understand your point of view MOD EDIT
IMO the show DIDN'T send the message that "Ollie was right". Yes, those words came out of Clark's mouth -- as he was rejecting his humanity. Surely Clark rejecting his humanity is all sorts of "WRONG"..

Why is Clark rejecting his humanity “WRONG”?

It is a completely theoretical discussion since it depends entirely on how you define humanity.

Personally in Superman terms I think at best Superman sees humanity as how the human's treat him when he is not all powerful Superman but is in his traditional mild mannered Clark Kent disguise i.e. Lois Lane treating Clark Kent like something she found on the bottom of her shoe. At worst Superman sees humanity for what they are ie humans routinely doing wars, genocide, ethnic cleansing, crimes etc.

If humanity is defined as those characteristics of his up bringing in Smallville (such as Jonathan Kent’s xenophobia to all things alien) that resulted in Clark choosing not to responding earlier to Davis/Doomsday as a serious threat then rejecting such “xenophobic humanity” is a good move. And it is especially as good move if such rejection of Johnathan Kent's xenophobia to alien things means Clark starts to listen to Jor-el when Jor-el provides information to Clark about alien stuff.

Superman is superman and not a world wide dictator because he is not human but instead an alien.

“Absolute power corrupts absolutely” is a dominant theme of what happens when even well meaning humans are exposed to absolute power but it is not true for Superman simply because he is not human but something special, unique and in fact alien to humanity.

This is why there are so many stories in the comics and on Smallville where when humans get super powers they inevitably go power mad and off the rails.

Only Superman can have super powers and remain good because of the simple fact he is not human.

Personally I think it is spot on since I have seen a little too much of humanity behaving like humanity does when rule of law breaks down in the Sandbox, SEA and Africa to ever want to see a “human” Superman. You don’t even have to be a traveler to a war zone or a dictatorship. You can see humanity rarely at it's best but every day at it's worse on the news.

Mother Teresa with super powers would not behave like Mother Teresa very long.



What did Clark and Chloe know about what they thought was uniquely Davis:
- his chosen profession was a medic - he saved lives
- he was abandoned by Lionel and lived what Clark thought would have been a nightmare existence from childhood
- he (WRONGLY) rationalized that if he killed bad people he would not become a massive killing machine and that this was better than killing randomly
- he tried to commit suicide rather than continue killing
In short, I think both saw him as a killer but one who was a victim as well and deserved a chance at atonement versus a life of torture (the PZ).

Davis spent an entire year attempting to free the beast or control it. That he would turn around and kill Jimmy right after achieving that freedom is not something reasonable for either to have predicted.

Attempting to save Davis was still the right thing to do.

MOD EDIT

Davis/Doomsday is the same entity and each part of the single entity knows exactly what the other one is doing. Davis/Doomsday is not a Dr Jekyll and Mr. Hyde situation where each personality is separate and not conscious of the actions and thoughts of the other personality.

Clark was warned that Davis/Doomsday was the ultimate destroyer and it adapted to attacks and the environment etc.

Davis is the adaptive camouflage developed by Davis/Doomsday so the space monster can be most effective in killing in the environment of Earth society.

If Davis was not aware of the murders and then slowly as he suspects he is involved and then realizes he is a killer so he turns himself into the police but then breaks out in Doomsday mode etc then you might have an argument. However Davis hiding dozens of bodies in the cornfield kills the scenario of an “unaware and good” Davis.

Not everyone in the cornfield was a murderer. For example there is a drunk driver and an ordinary security guard planted in there.

As for Davis’s rough up-bringing MOD EDITthe classic “defecting the blame” terrorist apologist argument used by the world's media over the USA being hit by 9/11 of: “Look at the bad thing you made the terrorist do to you”.

The legal version of this BS is used by every defense lawyer as the old apologist version of: “look at the bad thing the environment/society/religion/up-bringing made my client do! So who is the real victim here?”

The argument doesn’t fly with me since I personally have met/seen literally thousands of people that have lived far more horrible, heart breaking lives than any fictional character on Smallville etc and they don’t start killing people and then try to explain it away as due to society/environment/tough breaks etc.

MOD EDIT to play the same victim card for Davis. He is camouflage for a mass murdering monster from outer space. Davis killed in his own right and facilitated mass murder by hiding the bodies in the cornfield and then putting a pipe through Jimmy’s guts.

Way back in episode Abyss Clark should have asked his super intelligent space daddy how to kill Davis/Doomsday and then if possible have done so ASAP. If killing Davis/Doomsday was not possible then Plan B is a one way ticket to the Phantom Zone as a holding pen until Clark has a way to kill him.



As for guilt, MOD EDIT
I took her "I know exactly who killed Jimmy" as an indication of guilt -- but I understand it was not obvious.

Well something we finally agree on.

I saw this statement the same as Chloe taking on the guilt for Jimmy’s death.

In my world the one with the finger on the trigger is the main guilty party but the failures of both Clark and Chloe to be intelligent enough to see past the “ultimate destroyer’s" camouflage of Davis makes them facilitators in the murder of Jimmy Olson.

Jimmy was the one that smelled a rat before anyone else and no one believed him and thus Jimmy ended up with a pipe in his guts.

Cheers Mountain Sniper

[SVFancross]

Only Superman can have super powers and remain good because of the simple fact he is not human.I disagree. I think he's who he is because Ma & Pa Kent raised him right. Jor-El "rule them with strength" alien dad is not a good role model IMO.


You can see humanity rarely at it's best but every day at it's worse on the news.Sex, violence, death & destruction sell. That doesn't mean it represents the entirety of the world. The news has long since given up showing a full-picture of the world. I once met one of the founders of C-SPAN. This long-format news program shows EVERYTHING, on purpose. Her statement to me was that the American people have an unwritten contract with the news, you give them 15 minutes of your attention, they pick what you will see. The news IMO, is not a good sample of real life.


Mother Teresa with super powers would not behave like Mother Teresa very long.MOD EDIT This woman went for over 30 years without "feeling" the presence of Christ in her life and yet she continued to sleep on the floor, serve the poor, pray constantly and be a light to all those around her. She suffered GREATLY during her lifetime and as Pope John Paul II told her, this was a gift to make her closer to God. I'd trust Mother Teresa with superpowers everyday of the week and twice on Sunday. Mother Teresa was human and a great example of humanity. They actually exist (great examples) but don't usually get much press IMO.


“Absolute power corrupts absolutely” is a dominant theme of what happens when even well meaning humans are exposed to absolute power but it is not true for Superman simply because he is not human but something special, unique and in fact alien to humanity.Again, I don't think it's his alien physiology that makes him more immune to corruption. In the comic cartoon movie the "Death of Superman", when he forgot his upbring and his mother and Lois, he lost who he was and became a tyrant.

MOD EDITBottom line: Davis WAS a murderer but Clark and Chloe saw good in him and someone who wanted to be redeemed. I agree with the idea that you should give redemption a chance. Doesn't mean Davis should "walk away free". Imprisonment and atonement, would have been required IMO but Davis should have been given a chance at redemption without the beast. The lightswitch that he was really a psychokiller underneath came as a suprise to Sam Witwer as well as the on-screen characters. That is not who they showed me for the bulk of the year and I think it was for "shock" and to provide the means to kill of Jimmy and torture Clark and Chloe further.

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree MOD EDIT

ETA: BTW, I think we are having one of those classic "man is inherently good or man is inherently bad" disagreements. I'll not be dissuaded from my position - man is inherently good IMO. It's just my way -- I understand not everyone is on-board with that philosophy.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Fact Ollie's plan would not succeed. Davis is immortal and cannot be killed.

Fact: To many people interferred in Clark's plans causing death and destruction which was not Clark's fault.

Above are facts with no speculation.

Ollie was wrong! Trying to make Clark look like a bad guy to try to make Oliver look better isn't getting anywhere with me. This debate is going nowhere since we are at a dead end. I do hope that Oliver can be redeemed next season. I don't like to see him shown in this light since I originally liked the Green Arrow character.

Fact: Clark would have died had it not been for the Legion intervention and possibly Lois' intervention with the Legion ring. He would have died being buried with DD. That is how Rok said it would have turned out. That means Superman is dead. Doomsday is still immortal and buried under the Earth thanks to Clark's sacrifice. However, comicbook lore tells us that he does eventually escape it's prison but the twist is that there should not be a Superman to stop him. We'd have to assume that the Green Lantern and other future heroes could stop this thing in the future without Clark's help or the Earth will be ravaged. What I'm trying to say is Clark's plan is a short term solution to the apocalypse at best but I guess his choices are limited now.

Not only this but how many times has the world have to rely on Superman to save the world from utter destruction if not from Doomsday.

I will say this...I think it would have been a better future if Clark just sent Davis to the phantom zone...It's Chloe's fault for living post Infamous

[Myrddin]

I agree Clark is only to blame for being so easily swayed in "Beast;" the rest of Clark's logic was flawless. Furthermore, though, I don't think Clark should regret trying to save Davis. It was actually somewhat refreshing the writers did this, even if it seemed like a bit of a lightswitch. Chloe succeeds in separating Davis from Doomsday, in effect saving him. It's exactly what Clark would have wanted. Davis ended up killing Jimmy of his own accord.

Does this mean Clark was wrong to want to save him? No. Clark believes everyone deserves a second (or in his assessment of Davis, first) chance at good. Davis was saved, took his chance, and rejected good on his own, without Doomsday to hide behind. Clark doesn't force people to do good; he allows them to try. If Davis instead kills Jimmy, that blood is on his hands alone; not Clark's, not Oliver's, and not even Chloe's. It's the same reason Clark has tried to save Lex in the past, and the same reason he's adopted his no-kill policy.

Overall, I'd say Clark is right in this arc, minus the facepalm moment in "Beast."

Well put

Clark gave Davis a chance - which he did derserve.

What Davis did with it was up to him. Was the outcome tragic? Yes. But did he deserve his chance? Yes.

To say that Clark was wrong to give him one would be to say that no one should get a chance. And you made a good point that in this case it was not even a second chance - it was really a first for Davis. Davis - free and clear of any monster.

The whole point of Clark/Superman is that he believes in humanity. He inspires and gives hope. He is something for the world to look up to and beleive in.

Take that away from him and he is just a strong guy doling out his own particular brand of justice. Like Tess' gang.

[EarlTheEradicator]

I agree that Ollie is a man of the world and educated, but he sometimes lacks common sense and this has gotten him in trouble multiple times. I'll take Clark's actual on the job training from dealing with aliens and the meteor infected. Yes, he has made some mistakes but he has learned from them and in my opinion was better suited to deal with Doomsday both mentally and physically. Like they say, "Proof is in the pudding." In otherwords, who was the one who actually took care of Doomsday?" I'll give you a hint. It wasn't Oliver, the Green Arrow. There might be a bigger world outside of Metropolis but Doomsday was on Clark's turf.


Snowbird I agree but yet disagree at the same time. Doomsday was on Clarks Turf but at the same time if they would have killed Davis a long time ago like Oliver wanted then well quite frankly i could have taken him out LOL. Ill never forget the episode that Clark asked Oliver "so you think the end justifies the mean" and Ollie Said "Absolutely"!

[MountainSniper]

Hi SVFancross,


I disagree. I think he's who he is because Ma & Pa Kent raised him right. Jor-El "rule them with strength" alien dad is not a good role model IMO. .

No, Absolute powers corrupts absolutely when it comes to humans but not Clark Kent because he is not human.

Ma & Pa Kent are definitely a huge factor but it is Clark Kent’s alien nature that is the deal breaker in making him different from a human being given Kryptonian super powers.

Besides Pa Kent was xenophobic about all things alien and he would have been happy if Clark Kent never had super powers. This is proven in the episode Leech when Martha comments on how relieved Jonathan is that through circumstance Clark has lost his powers.

Regarding Jor-el those words might have been in the space ship but Jor-el’s actual behavior is very different. Jor-el took steps to control Clark, destroy the fortress etc if he became a threat to Earth. Jor-el’s message that Dr Swam decoded was also very different from the space ship one and was more in line with Jor-el’s plans that Clark becomes a force for good on Earth.

If Clark would have listened to Jor-el he would either be in or finished training by now and well on the way if not already Superman.

Jor-el is very much a big picture guy who is thinking about what is good for Earth (unlike Jonathan Kent whose focus is hiding on the farm) rather than what Clark Kent the individual personally wants for himself: A family with Lana Lang living an ordinary life on the Kent farm.

An individual can get what he wants (& what Jonathan wanted for Clark) but the hero gives up what he wants (Lana Lang and life on the farm) for the greater good (to be Superman).

BTW just think of the millions of innocents that would still be alive if Clark would have listened to Jor-el about Zod, Brainiac and now Doomsday.


Sex, violence, death & destruction sell. That doesn't mean it represents the entirety of the world. The news has long since given up showing a full-picture of the world. I once met one of the founders of C-SPAN. This long-format news program shows EVERYTHING, on purpose. Her statement to me was that the American people have an unwritten contract with the news, you give them 15 minutes of your attention, they pick what you will see. The news IMO, is not a good sample of real life.

No one said it represents the entirely of the world. MOD EDIT

Human beings are the apex predator of Plant Earth and one of the few species that as a matter of course preys on itself.

Human beings in positions of absolute powers do not stay benevolent very long.

MOD EDIT


MOD EDIT This woman went for over 30 years without "feeling" the presence of Christ in her life and yet she continued to sleep on the floor, serve the poor, pray constantly and be a light to all those around her. She suffered GREATLY during her lifetime and as Pope John Paul II told her, this was a gift to make her closer to God. I'd trust Mother Teresa with superpowers everyday of the week and twice on Sunday. Mother Teresa was human and a great example of humanity. They actually exist (great examples) but don't usually get much press IMO.

MOD EDIT
My argument is pretty simple: When it comes to humans absolute power corrupts absolutely and history is literally filled with example after example after example. Good intentions or not humans given absolute power inevitably go off the rails.

This is the essence of what makes Superman different from humans. He is not corrupted by his super powers but uses them not for personal benefit but for the benefit of the world. A human couldn’t be trusted with such powers but Superman isn’t human and that is what makes him different.


Again, I don't think it's his alien physiology that makes him more immune to corruption.

Give a human such powers and see what happens and you won’t have to wait long.

A single script interpretation in a cartoon movie doesn’t prove anything when stacked against 70 years of Superman not being an evil tyrant.


Bottom line: Davis WAS a murderer but Clark and Chloe saw good in him and someone who wanted to be redeemed.

If this was true then Davis could have turned himself into the police, confessed to the murderers and accepted the consequences of punishment for murder.

Instead Davis continued to act as camouflage to lure people in for Doomsday to kill, killed in his own right and facilitated continuing the murders by hiding the bodies in the field.

Davis in his own words confirmed that environment was not the factor but instead he would ALWAYS return to his true nature. Davis’s own words directly counter point you.


The lightswitch that he was really a psychokiller underneath came as a suprise to Sam Witwer as well as the on-screen characters. That is not who they showed me for the bulk of the year and I think it was for "shock" and to provide the means to kill of Jimmy and torture Clark and Chloe further.

Lightswitch? The writers had Davis murder his driver when he was a kid MOD EDIT

Way back in episode Abyss Jor-el directly told Clark about Davis/Doomsday ie ultimate destroyer that adapts to different attacks and environment etc. If Clark had a brain in his head he would have been on the look out for Doomsday since Abyss and not have been fooled by the ultimate destroyer’s adaptive camoflogue of Davis.

If it is such a light switch for the characters how come the writers had Jimmy (who didn’t have the advantage of Jor-el directly telling him about Doomsday) figure it out before the super powered Kryptonian Clark Kent and the brilliant Chloe Sullivan who has so many wall of weird meteor freak scalps on her belt?

I mean the writers have Davis killing and filling a cornfield with bodies so just how MOD EDITsurprised that he turns out to be a bad guy?

Clark and Chloe not figuring out Davis is a bad guy when Jor-el warms him directly and Jimmy is yelling it out in a hospital just make the two of them look about as smart as the Keystone Cops in slow motion.

MOD EDIT

I think we are having one of those classic "man is inherently good or man is inherently bad" disagreements. I'll not be dissuaded from my position - man is inherently good IMO. It's just my way -- I understand not everyone is on-board with that philosophy.

MOD EDIT
What I actually said is when it comes to humans “absolute power corrupts absolutely” which is the interesting twist in the story used by the original creators of Superman to explain why Superman remains uncorrupted even with all of his super powers ie he is not human.

Regarding humans and “absolute power corrupts absolutely” it is not a theoretical discussion because I have the entire timeline of human history to use as evidence of what evil even well meaning people do when they are blessed or cursed by circumstance to gain absolute power over their fellow man.

With all the evidence of human history to draw on it is obvious that individual human beings do not turn into belevolent do-gooders when the fate of circumstance hands them absolute power; instead the usual result is it all ends in tears for just about everyone involved.

That is why the last thing anyone should want to see is a human Superman.

All the best,

Cheers Mountain Sniper

[SVFancross]

BTW just think of the millions of innocents that would still be alive if Clark would have listened to Jor-el about Zod, Brainiac and now Doomsday.


Clearly we will never see eye to eye -- Superman does not kill and that is not only my "opinion" but canon based on what Clark said to Rokk in Legion.


Now that said if you really think that the news organizations are just making it all up then you really have been spending too much time in your comfy chair in some quiet white toast American suburb.


MOD EDIT they choose what newstories are going to be fit into that 30 mins a day.
MOD EDIT

My point on Mother Theresa is that she is of such incredible moral fiber (hence my example) that I would have no trouble trusting her in this hypothetical superpower situation.


A single script interpretation in a cartoon movie doesn’t prove anything when stacked against 70 years of Superman not being an evil tyrant.

That was a pretty important cartoon movie with a major "release" event. Please cite me what comic book said Superman is immune from corruptions because he is alien. I don't think there is one.


Lightswitch? The writers had Davis murder his driver when he was a kid MOD EDIT


If it came as a surprise to the actor and he argued against it as not consistent with who they built up over the year then yes, I think it's a lightswitch. Not that the beast (which is what came out and killed the driver) would kill but that Davis was inherently a psychopath is what I call a lightswitch.

Note:You can always PM me if you'd like to hear my point by point rebuttle - I don't think it is appropriate for the board.

[Dyanara]

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[Atomic girl]

MOD NOTE: This thread, nor are any thread at K-site, is for arguing or debating. We do not want to foster that kind of win/lose mentality. Please use K-site to discuss your ideas/observations of the show. If the tone in this thread doesn't change to a discussion, it will be closed. If you have a problem with a post, report it and do not respond. If you need to be more specific with a particular poster, take it to PMs or to your walls. Please remember that all the rules apply and bullying will not be tolerated on walls or in PMs.

[MountainSniper]

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[SVFancross]

I agree that they've pushed the envelope with Clark and killing. Based on an Al Gough interview a year ago, it's been their intent to never actually cross the line but to "flirt" with it. I don't know what PS3's position is but I'm going to guess "do not kill" is still in place. I also agree killing on SV is a farce with no real world consequences.

In the Superman comics not only do we have empirical evidence that he has not become a tyrant, we have an actual canon reference (the "Death of Superman" series) which puts the rationale as his upbringing by good people (Ma & Pa Kent). I don't believe he or any character has ever said he is not a tyrant because of his alien physiology.

[TOMophilus]

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[MountainSniper]

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[Atomic girl]

Even after warning, the off topic chat continued as well as the arguing, thread closed, another may not open to take its place.