Anyone else get on Chloe's side after this episode?

[anewbie]

Chloe's actions have been portrayed as purposefully grey by the writers. They said so themselves. They want us debating if her intentions are good or not.

Personally last night clinched it for me. It's obvious to me that everything Chloe has done has been to protect Clark. I don't doubt that she cares about Davis, is even attracted to him, but I don't think she's in love with him. She didn't want to leave Smallville. She doesn't want to harbor Doomsday, but she has no choice. She was backed into a corner because of Davis. Right now the only thing that can stop the killing is her. And because Davis wouldn't stay in the basement, because he's being hunted by the authorities, and it really was her "last card" to play.

We saw it ourself with Emil Hamilton, she was asking him to find a cure so she doesn't have to keep doing this.

In my eyes I think she's right. She was trying to save Davis from what she sees as a horrible affliction. She doesn't see Davis as completely doomed yet. She wanted to give him a chance to be "saved" because she is a good person at heart. She believes in second chances. Davis isn't a cut and dry badguy who wants to kill, he's forced to kill.

When she was advocating killing Lex last season it was because of Clark. Because she didn't want to see Clark get hurt. And not for nothing, Lex was already on his millionth chance already. She knew he wouldn't change, while with Davis they hadn't even really explored the possibilities. I mean really, what if there was a cure out there and they didn't know it?

Clark was going to send Davis to the PZ and that decision would have eaten him up. I agree with Chloe. Because he has blamed himself for almost everything. It isn't the same situation as Baern and the other zoners who were clear cut badguys. And regardless what anyone says, Chloe put Clark in his place and reminded him of who he is. That's why he didn't stop Chloe, because he knew she was right. He hadn't even given Davis a chance to save himself. If he though she was really wrong he could have supersped and taken the crystal back, activated the portal again, and thrown depowered Davis inside within the blink of an eye. But he paused because he knew she was right.

It's easy to say, "Oh send Doomy to the PZ! He's doomed!" But that's the benefit we have as the audience, we have that knowledge. They don't. Not to mention what it would have meant for the zoners. With all we know, it's likely Doomsday would have ripped through all the zoners. Is it right for Clark to send Davis to a place where he will kill, kill, and kill some more?

But the phonecall in the end really showed me the nobility of Chloe's situation. She was willing to sacrifice herself, her life, her future just to keep Doomsday at bay. To protect Clark. This is all about protecting Clark. The lies, the running away, everything is centered in her desire to protect him. It wasn't like she was giddy at the end of the episode making out with Davis in the car and driving out of Smallville. She looked like a person with no choices.


I couldn't have said it better myself. In addition to the first part of your statement. I think the writers put us the viewers in a position they wanted us to be, battling over Chloe's actions which is happening right now. I admit that I don't agree with Chloe's decisions recently but I will not be quick to judge her. Im sure that in the last episode of the season, Doomsday, everything will come into light. So I just have to wait.

So sorry by the way to Julie (Chlollie) and Bek?... Don't really know how to work the pm, invites and all that staff here... except to post obviously. :)

[Alpha]

You're right and I do find that worrisome. The writers have been introducing some engimatic traits into Chloe's character this season and moreso, since the announcement of the season 9. I'm worried because as with almost everything in smallville it may get to a point where certain views cannot be reconciled anymore. And it will unfortunately be left at that. I hope this doesn't slowly make Chloe a kind of secondary character.

Wow, there was a time, when you could bet your life on knowing whose side or what action Chloe was going to take... not anymore!

[Denegation 15]

You're right and I do find that worrisome. The writers have been introducing some engimatic traits into Chloe's character this season and moreso, since the announcement of the season 9. I'm worried because as with almost everything in smallville it may get to a point where certain views cannot be reconciled anymore. And it will unfortunately be left at that. I hope this doesn't slowly make Chloe a kind of secondary character.

Wow, there was a time, when you could bet your life on knowing whose side or what action Chloe was going to take... not anymore!
True dat!

But I think it's better this way. Instead of always knowing what Chloe will
choose. It's kool seeing that she is portraying a real person now, ranging from good to bad decisions.

It makes the show more interesting.

:p

[Tompouce]

I honestly don't understand her anymore. I know she has not bad intentions but there is a moment where you have to sit down and think. Chloe, please, do it !

[superpal1]

Chloes feelings for Davis are getting in the way big time. she knows all the people he as killed, but because he says its her he needs to stay focused and turned makes her feel good about herself. Chloe has had no trouble with Clark saving the day or taking take of Meteor Freaks in the past and Davis is much worse than anything they have seen before. The Phantom Zone was the right choice.

[Jawth]

Davis doesn't have a soul, so it's not really an issue. I really don't understand how anyone could be against putting him in the Phantom Zone. He'd even be able to meet his mommy.

[Hopefulsuicide]

Davis doesn't have a soul, so it's not really an issue. I really don't understand how anyone could be against putting him in the Phantom Zone. He'd even be able to meet his mommy.

Why do you think Davis doesn't have a soul? :confused:

[Davis Bloome]

Well I for one am not religious so I don't believe in souls, but I can guess, since Davis is fabricated in a lab, so he's not human, he doesn't have a soul either... But in theory Clark isn't human either, so does he have a soul? Cause yeah he acts human, but he isn't... Davis does the same...

[KneelBeforeZod!]

The only thing Chloe "got on" in this episode, and frankly of late, is my nerves. I truly feel her character has run its course and is only serving to hold Clark back from making a clean and total transition to his life in Metropolis.

I never thought I'd grow tired of Chloe, but frankly for folks like me who've been watching since day one, I feel like I've grown up on this show. We all have. Jeez, Clark was suppose to be 14 when the show started. Now he is a man. Time to move to Metropolis and bring in Perry White. Everyone else is gone. It's time for Chloe to go too.

Whatever her intentions, the fact is she does care about Davis more than she is willing to admit, and I think she desperately wants to fool herself into believing that she is doing this 100% for Clark.

I am tired of everyone - Chloe, Lana, Pete, Lex, Lionel, etc. - all at some point or the other repeating the same refrain: I am doing this to protect Clark. ARRRGGHHH! Clark is SUPERMAN for Pete's sake. He can protect himself!

I am tired of everyone - Chloe, Lana, Oliver etc. - lecturing Clark. If he makes a tough decision that he later regrets, let HIM live and learn from it. I am tired of all these people trying to cradle Superman.

[devilneedsaride]

Well I for one am not religious so I don't believe in souls, but I can guess, since Davis is fabricated in a lab, so he's not human, he doesn't have a soul either... But in theory Clark isn't human either, so does he have a soul? Cause yeah he acts human, but he isn't... Davis does the same...

It all gets very philosophical at this point. What defines a soul? Sentience? Emotion? A sense of right and wrong? What makes a being worthy of moral consideration and a life free from suffering? I bet the answer varies greatly from person to person.

I, personally, say that it doesn't matter where Davis came from or what his biology is. He's here now, he's clearly sentient with a capacity for pain and a desire to do right. It doesn't matter what he is, but rather who he is. It's not his fault he was created by evil people, and physiologically he is no less human than Clark. He has to answer for what immoral actions he took that he had control over, but I don't think it's fair to say he doesn't have a soul simply because he isn't human.

[Jawth]

Why do you think Davis doesn't have a soul? :confused:

He's an abomination by pretty much any religion's standards. Davis is nothing but a mask for Doomsday, and thinks he doesn't deserve punishment for his crimes. At BEST, he's a sociopath.

[Denegation 15]

It all gets very philosophical at this point. What defines a soul? Sentience? Emotion? A sense of right and wrong? What makes a being worthy of moral consideration and a life free from suffering? I bet the answer varies greatly from person to person.

I, personally, say that it doesn't matter where Davis came from or what his biology is. He's here now, he's clearly sentient with a capacity for pain and a desire to do right. It doesn't matter what he is, but rather who he is. It's not his fault he was created by evil people, and physiologically he is no less human than Clark. He has to answer for what immoral actions he took that he had control over, but I don't think it's fair to say he doesn't have a soul simply because he isn't human.
Yeah, I mean he has developed emotions, he knows what is right and wrong and he has a conscious.

[green_arrow_girl358]

no , chloe is only getting on my nerves now.

[Superboy2]

Wouldn't he not have powers in the PZ?

[Mackdaddy]

I totally understand what she is doing. So yes, I am on her side.

[daxam77]

No matter how much I like Chloe I have to treat her like I would any other character. She says that she is protecting Clark,but no matter how you spin it she is still wrong. So many characters have done things on this show and justified them by saying they were protecting Clark. Ollie blew Lex up and said he did it to protect Clark, however it was still wrong. Chloe killed Sebastian in an effort to protect Clark, didn't make it right. Lionel did numerous questionable things protecting Clark.Look where that got him. The point is I can't be on her side when I wasn't on those people's side when they did their questionable deeds. The whole the end justifies the means mentality just doesn't sit well with me.


You said it.

It also calls to mind that it's a little conceited of anyone who thinks they're "protecting" someone who's much more powerful than they are. A lot has been thrown at Clark and he's still standing!

[Imzadia]

This ep just reinforced what I've always thought. That she has real feelings for Davis and she is doing this to protect Clark. I think if she was just thinking about Clark she would let Davis go into the Phantom Zone.

Ditto! And it makes me Sad what's happened to her judgment. :( What she did in "Beast" is an example of what Clark told Lana at the end of "Siren", "...we have all the Right Intentions, but still make all the Wrong Choices." (paraphrased) My feelings and opinions about Chloe's recent slew of actions were solidified in "Beast". I am absolutely NOT on her side. Clark trusts her instincts and her judgment most of the time, so she caused him to falter in his initial decision to send Doomsday/Davis to the Phantom Zone, which I believe was the Best Decision, IMO. :\

[Denegation 15]

At this point, I don't see any character having clear judgment. They kind of all need each other to balance out their decisions. Chloe is running off and trying to handle things that are too big to be handled by her alone. Clark is trying to take more matters into his own hands and making decisions without consulting with Chloe, or anyone. Oliver is trying to play God, and trying to get others to kill people from left to right. They all need each other to stop the other one from making stupid choices.

I don't think the thought of helping someone stronger than you is conceited. Clark is stronger than Chloe, but only because of our sun. If they were all on Krypton, Clark wouldn't have any powers. He's abilities might have changed but not his capability to think; he thinks at the level of humans. Clark needs Chloe and other supporting characters at times. He always stops people from taking a life, but when he gets upset, especially if people get in between him and Lana, he goes off on a rampage. It's wrong to kill period, but Oliver at least is trying to kill for the greater good, in his mind. While Clark was going to try to kill Lionel and Lex because they messed with his relationship. Martian Manhunter had to stop him the first time, and Lana the second time. They both are a match for him, but he can still probably beat them, so he's stronger than them. But they still tried to stop him from making a bad mistake and protect him.

As for Chloe, she is just trying to do what she thinks is right. I might have not done what she did, but we can't say it's wrong or right. We haven't been in that situation. Clark imposes his morality and values on others(telling them to not kill or this and that), and Chloe is doing something similar for a change. She is listening to her own instincts and conscious. She is trying to protect someone she loves(Clark) and someone she cares for/loves(Davis).

Sometimes to do the right thing in your eyes you have to be persecuted. Also, remember Oliver in a sense threatened Chloe. He was like, give me one reason why I shouldn't have called the cops. Obviously, he isn't going to be in a mood to cooperate with helping Davis. She probably feels backed into a wall and alone in this matter. But obviously, in the previews of the next episode we see she comes back to Clark, when she knows she can't handle it anymore. So, it isn't like she is just trying to handle things alone without help. She just probably thought, Davis would hold on, on the power of love or something. But she was mistaken. Give her a brake.

[Tompouce]

Well I for one am not religious so I don't believe in souls, but I can guess, since Davis is fabricated in a lab, so he's not human, he doesn't have a soul either... But in theory Clark isn't human either, so does he have a soul? Cause yeah he acts human, but he isn't... Davis does the same...
Soul can be a metaphor so I think Clark has one, he has a deep good heart and soul if we want. Davis doesn't. Few times, I thought it was possible for him to remain the good person he tried to be but it isn't. The Beast in him will win. It is planned like this. He is here to destroy Clark and our planet. He can adapt to everything so I suppose if he was sent to another one, he will be able to look like an alien, a kind of human,...or whatever. That is why it is so obvious he has to be sent in the PZ, he can adapt, it would have been perfect. Clark's choice was the good one.

[Davis Bloome]

I think he's meant to look Kryptonian, that is why he looks human, after all Clark does too. I don't think it is because he would be able to adapt his appearance to whatever planet he would arrive on. And we don't know if Davis would be able to adapt in the PZ. After all Clark didn't have his powers in the PZ, which powers would Davis have there. And whatever powers he has there, it would always be of bad consequence in the PZ.

[Lazy Boy]

I totally understand what she is doing. So yes, I am on her side.

Ditto.

[devilneedsaride]

Soul can be a metaphor so I think Clark has one, he has a deep good heart and soul if we want. Davis doesn't. Few times, I thought it was possible for him to remain the good person he tried to be but it isn't. The Beast in him will win. It is planned like this. He is here to destroy Clark and our planet. He can adapt to everything so I suppose if he was sent to another one, he will be able to look like an alien, a kind of human,...or whatever. That is why it is so obvious he has to be sent in the PZ, he can adapt, it would have been perfect. Clark's choice was the good one.

He IS trying though. He's in a really terrible situation and he is desperately trying to make the best of it. Davis isn't here to destroy anybody, Doomsday is, and that's not Davis's fault.

I've been thinking about the whether Davis/Doomsday would logically have powers in the phantom zone or not. I thought the reason that Kryptonians don't have powers in the PZ was the lack of a yellow sun. It would make sense that a prison built on Krypton would mirror Krypton in that way. However, Doomsday was created from the DNA of the most powerful destroyers on Krypton, so it would make sense that his powers are not dependent upon the yellow sun. So unless the PZ has some other built-in power stripper (maybe someone better versed in the comics can weigh in here), Doomsday would most likely keep all of his powers there. That would mean, first of all, that Davis would die entirely, and second of all, that there would be massive bloody carnage in the PZ.

[SuperGEM]

No. If anything, I care about her less and less with each passing moment. And up until this season I was a Chloe fan.

[smallvillereporter27]

At this point, I don't see any character having clear judgment. They kind of all need each other to balance out their decisions. Chloe is running off and trying to handle things that are too big to be handled by her alone. Clark is trying to take more matters into his own hands and making decisions without consulting with Chloe, or anyone. Oliver is trying to play God, and trying to get others to kill people from left to right. They all need each other to stop the other one from making stupid choices.

I don't think the thought of helping someone stronger than you is conceited. Clark is stronger than Chloe, but only because of our sun. If they were all on Krypton, Clark wouldn't have any powers. He's abilities might have changed but not his capability to think; he thinks at the level of humans. Clark needs Chloe and other supporting characters at times. He always stops people from taking a life, but when he gets upset, especially if people get in between him and Lana, he goes off on a rampage. It's wrong to kill period, but Oliver at least is trying to kill for the greater good, in his mind. While Clark was going to try to kill Lionel and Lex because they messed with his relationship. Martian Manhunter had to stop him the first time, and Lana the second time. They both are a match for him, but he can still probably beat them, so he's stronger than them. But they still tried to stop him from making a bad mistake and protect him.

As for Chloe, she is just trying to do what she thinks is right. I might have not done what she did, but we can't say it's wrong or right. We haven't been in that situation. Clark imposes his morality and values on others(telling them to not kill or this and that), and Chloe is doing something similar for a change. She is listening to her own instincts and conscious. She is trying to protect someone she loves(Clark) and someone she cares for/loves(Davis).

Sometimes to do the right thing in your eyes you have to be persecuted. Also, remember Oliver in a sense threatened Chloe. He was like, give me one reason why I shouldn't have called the cops. Obviously, he isn't going to be in a mood to cooperate with helping Davis. She probably feels backed into a wall and alone in this matter. But obviously, in the previews of the next episode we see she comes back to Clark, when she knows she can't handle it anymore. So, it isn't like she is just trying to handle things alone without help. She just probably thought, Davis would hold on, on the power of love or something. But she was mistaken. Give her a brake.

ITA. I don't think any of them are doing the right thing at this point. There are currently three different viewpoints on how to stop Davis, yet nobody decided to actually consult one another. I think Chloe, Clark, and Ollie are all trying to do what THEY think is right, but they should be working together.

[Tompouce]

He IS trying though. He's in a really terrible situation and he is desperately trying to make the best of it. Davis isn't here to destroy anybody, Doomsday is, and that's not Davis's fault.

I've been thinking about the whether Davis/Doomsday would logically have powers in the phantom zone or not. I thought the reason that Kryptonians don't have powers in the PZ was the lack of a yellow sun. It would make sense that a prison built on Krypton would mirror Krypton in that way. However, Doomsday was created from the DNA of the most powerful destroyers on Krypton, so it would make sense that his powers are not dependent upon the yellow sun. So unless the PZ has some other built-in power stripper (maybe someone better versed in the comics can weigh in here), Doomsday would most likely keep all of his powers there. That would mean, first of all, that Davis would die entirely, and second of all, that there would be massive bloody carnage in the PZ.
Of course but anyway Davis is going to die : the beast is slowly taking the power. He won't be able to control it soon. It is his destiny, horrible but he was meant to be this. It is his parents wish. And about massive bloody carnage in PZ, it is horrible too but who "cares" ? These creatures are there because they are evil, it is not by chance they were sent here. Look you have Davis's parents over there, it is a proof, isn't it ?
Anyway, Davis or not, they fight and kill each other all the time, there would not have a big difference. I know this sound totally inhuman but we don't talk about human beings anyway. Honestly, we have so much to do on Earth to protect and help each other that I can not be sad for those creatures. They chose to be bad and worse. Okay, Davis was enough on Earth to think and feel like a human but he was there for 1 day that he was already killing people. We saw it so he is a creature, a kind of program. I don't say he didn't try but he is meant to fail. Sad but true

[Davis Bloome]

Sorry but I don't see much difference in Davis killing criminals here on earth, and letting DD killing criminals in the PZ. For all we know there could still be criminals who did horrible things, but still were forced into a criminal life just as probably the same counts for the criminals Davis killed. As he proved he studies them before he killed them, cause he wanted to make sure that at least 'some' justice would be brought instead of choosing his victims randomly. And that is what DD would do if he were in the PZ.

[Tompouce]

But people in the PZ are not human beings anyway, there are evil aliens or am I wrong ?

[Davis Bloome]

But people in the PZ are not human beings anyway, there are evil aliens or am I wrong?They are still living beings. And many of them are kryptionian, they're not so different from us humans. And like I said we don't know the motives of their actions. They could be very similar to the criminals Davis killed, so again where is the difference?

[devilneedsaride]

Of course but anyway Davis is going to die : the beast is slowly taking the power. He won't be able to control it soon. It is his destiny, horrible but he was meant to be this. It is his parents wish. And about massive bloody carnage in PZ, it is horrible too but who "cares" ? These creatures are there because they are evil, it is not by chance they were sent here. Look you have Davis's parents over there, it is a proof, isn't it ?
Anyway, Davis or not, they fight and kill each other all the time, there would not have a big difference. I know this sound totally inhuman but we don't talk about human beings anyway. Honestly, we have so much to do on Earth to protect and help each other that I can not be sad for those creatures. They chose to be bad and worse. Okay, Davis was enough on Earth to think and feel like a human but he was there for 1 day that he was already killing people. We saw it so he is a creature, a kind of program. I don't say he didn't try but he is meant to fail. Sad but true

We don't actually know enough about the phantom zone to say that for sure. We've seen good people get caught there all the time. Clark, Kara, Raya, etc. We don't know what someone has to do to get put there, but we DO know that they were put there because the Kryptonians didn't think that killing them was right. Additionally, anybody who is already there can apparently be fought off effectively by a powerless Kryptonian (Kara did fine), and so dropping something as powerful as Doomsday into the mix would cause far more widespread carnage than anything that's going on already.

Clark is no more human than they are. To say that they don't matter because they aren't human is to say that he doesn't matter either.

We know that Davis is going to be swallowed by Doomsday simply because it's something that must happen in terms of the story, but Clark/Chloe/etc don't. The moral thing to do from their perspective is different from the moral thing to do from ours.

[Tompouce]

okay but as I said in another thread, an ultimate destroyer as DD must be eradicated. Look, the world would have been so different without people like Hitler, Mussolini,...I can't prevent me from thinking about this. One Hitler for how many people ?

[Selina]

There is a BIG difference.

Humans can be punished through the legal way - prison.

Phantoms and kryptonians with an incentive to kill however can't. I mean you can't exactly lock up a phantom, let alone some as powerful and destructive as say Zod and Doomsday. So in that respect, I think the PZ, acts as a prison for those that can't be imprisoned but are too dangerous to walk the earth.

As for the people in the PZ, there are monsters in there that have done deplorable things without any remorse. We can speculate all we like on "could be's" but all we could do is judge the place on who we have seen in there and who has come out safe. Is it right that Doomsday kills those in the PZ? Well that's up for debate but no matter what the answar is, it is still in no way comparable to the billions of lives on earth when we know for FACT, there are innocent people roaming the streets. As far as we know there are no innocents in the PZ. When there was last time, it was made very clear to the audience. Now of course at this point Davis is going for the criminals but once he accepts his destiny, which he will, he will take anything and everything out. What then?

When it comes down it you've got to ask yourself - do I send the worlds ultimate destoyer to a place like hell where he kill who he wants (even though these people are evil) or do I let him stay here where can wipe out the world, muderering millions of innocents in the process. Davis's good side persona is really beside the point now. Sure I feel bad for him but considering what he's done and what he's going to do, this is the only option besides death. I dont consider Chloe an option and never will. She is only postponing the inevitable.

[Davis Bloome]

Yeah I agree ulitimately Davis will most likely perish, and all who would be left is DD. But if that would happen Clark has to find a way to kill him without ever getting resurrected. Sending him to the PZ would still be morally wrong, while it may be a better option of course instead of leaving him here on earth. No if Davis is truly gone, Clark has to find a way to get rid of DD forever, so that no one can ever become a casualty of him, not even the criminals in the PZ.

[Selina]

I'm all for Clark killing Doomsday and if he can find a way around it then great. However if not the PZ is the next best thing. At least he's contained.

[Tompouce]

I agree with you Selina

[Davis Bloome]

contained?...killed seems more like it or those other criminals will get killed. Depends if he changes or not. So no it's not an option imo, but I just think we'll just have to agree to disagree on that matter.

[Tompouce]

Davis Bloome (lol), I can understand what you mean even if I don't agree but do you see another solution ?

[Selina]

I dont really care for those murderous monsters. At least the planet will be safe and millions of innocent people will survive

You may not consider it an option but besides death, what other option is there?

[Davis Bloome]

I said this to many others, but they still think it's too tricky, but I think freezing him in would be a good option, since Clark couldn't escape from it either. He would be in an hibernation, thus Davis wouldn't suffer and DD wouldn't resurface again.

[Tompouce]

well, we know many stories where people who got frozen, resurface again...To me, as Selina says there is only 2 options : PZ or death. It is too dangerous to let even a little option of living on Earth... and honestly, frozen doesn't seem greater than PZ or death

[Davis Bloome]

But we only know from Smallville that Clark got frozen and didn't escape, DD only escape because brainiac controlled his hibernation, but because he was removed from Chloe he lost control over it, allowing him to escape, besides there have been several occasions that people have escaped from the PZ in Smallville.

[Selina]

well, we know many stories where people who got frozen, resurface again...To me, as Selina says there is only 2 options : PZ or death. It is too dangerous to let even a little option of living on Earth... and honestly, frozen doesn't seem greater than PZ or death

Exactly. This is about going for the safest option all round. It's not about sparing ones feelings. Protecting the world from Doomsday should be the top priority. Having his on earth, in what ever capacity, is just way too risky imo. Apart from death PZ just seems like the most logical and safest option.

[Jawth]

contained?...killed seems more like it or those other criminals will get killed. Depends if he changes or not. So no it's not an option imo, but I just think we'll just have to agree to disagree on that matter.

The residents of the Phantom Zone are intergalactic killers. If they and Doomie kill each other off, it'd be the best possible outcome.

[Cogito17]

I think there is an error in the assumption that phantoms simply "escape" the phantom zone in Smallville. According to Smallville, there is only 1 way to get out of the phantom zone, which is to use an exit only openable by someone from the house of El (Clark/Kara). The only time ANYONE has EVER escaped is when Kara or Clark opened the door in order to get out of the phantom zone themselves. Somehow, if Clark had put Davis/Doomsday in the PZ, I don't think he or Kara would go in to let him back out.

[Denegation 15]

ITA. I don't think any of them are doing the right thing at this point. There are currently three different viewpoints on how to stop Davis, yet nobody decided to actually consult one another. I think Chloe, Clark, and Ollie are all trying to do what THEY think is right, but they should be working together.
Yeah. I think they all need to compromise and find common ground... before it's too late.

----- Added 4 Minutes later -----

OK, well, killing criminals is still wrong. You guys are saying we should stop Davis and all this and that, yet you are willing to let him continue killing. (even if they are criminals)

That's kind of thinking like him. You are supporting killing, just not in our neighborhood (Earth).
Killing to me is wrong, period.

[xrayvision]

Exactly. This is about going for the safest option all round. It's not about sparing ones feelings. Protecting the world from Doomsday should be the top priority. Having his on earth, in what ever capacity, is just way too risky imo. Apart from death PZ just seems like the most logical and safest option.

And death isn't an option because he can't stay dead. Even if he's vaporized, he will still return as he did in the comics. Regardless of the form he would have in the Phantom Zone, he would be stripped of his powers. So it really is a no-brainer. The only reason Chloe tried to guilt trip Clark is because she's in love with Davis. There was no moral issue about sending him to the Phantom Zone because Clark already thought about it and there were no other options. It was Clark's choice to make since it's a Kryptonian matter and Davis being on Earth is all because he allowed Brainiac to go to Krypton and change history. If that didn't happen, Davis would have been floating around space after his genetic material resurrected itself from Krypton's destruction & he would probably have grown up as Doomsday and made it to Earth at a much later date (like in the comics).

[HeroesUnlimited]

And death isn't an option because he can't stay dead. Even if he's vaporized, he will still return as he did in the comics. Regardless of the form he would have in the Phantom Zone, he would be stripped of his powers. So it really is a no-brainer. The only reason Chloe tried to guilt trip Clark is because she's in love with Davis. There was no moral issue about sending him to the Phantom Zone because Clark already thought about it and there were no other options. It was Clark's choice to make since it's a Kryptonian matter and Davis being on Earth is all because he allowed Brainiac to go to Krypton and change history. If that didn't happen, Davis would have been floating around space after his genetic material resurrected itself from Krypton's destruction & he would probably have grown up as Doomsday and made it to Earth at a much later date (like in the comics).

Chloe is starting to wear out her welcome.

[xrayvision]

For me, that happened 3 seasons ago in Arrival when they turned her into a smug, order-barking, know-it-all, flawless, drama-queen type who Clark couldn't function without. Of course this change in Clark happened at the same time (in Arrival) as a result of screwing his character up to allow Chloe to fit into her new role.

So in other words, they took my favorite young female character of seasons 1-4 and turned her into my 2nd least favorite character (after Lana). Though I wasn't happy with Lois' presence in season 4 because it took away from the stones plot, which should have been the #1 priority. But that plot was screwed to hell once they also decided to throw Lana into it & turn her into a witch. But Lois has grown more & more on me starting season 5, which I think would have been the right time to introduce her into the show.

Amazing how catering to 'ships transformed a great show as seen by the first 3 seasons into a show whose plots are ruled & guided by shipper-appeasement. The worst was the Lexana garbage in season 6 & its aftermath in season 7. I wish Clark would have been removed from the show during those seasons & been in a spin-off where he was allowed to grow and traveled the world. Kind of like Knight Rider or Kung-Fu, but with Clark roaming around, helping people from natural disasters, famine, war, organized crime, and other bad situations. Then he could have returned to the show and write articles about his adventures. That would have been better than the nothing he did during those seasons.

[HeroesUnlimited]

Clark would have been removed from the show during those seasons & been in a spin-off where he was allowed to grow and traveled the world. Kind of like Knight Rider or Kung-Fu, but with Clark roaming around, helping people from natural disasters, famine, war, organized crime, and other bad situations. Then he could have returned to the show and write articles about his adventures. That would have been better than the nothing he did during those seasons.

There's a comic book that follows this concept. I forget the exact title. Under a Yellow Sun maybe? It's all written "reporter style" by Clark Kent about Superman's adventures (if memory serves). I think Clark Kent is actually listed as the author.

[xrayvision]

There's a comic book that follows this concept. I forget the exact title. Under a Yellow Sun maybe? It's all written "reporter style" by Clark Kent about Superman's adventures (if memory serves). I think Clark Kent is actually listed as the author.

Is it about his world travels before he became Superman? I know he did travel the world before becoming Superman and I even know that he got his start in journalism by writing about them. Is this the actual book that covers that? I've been looking for it for a while.

[HeroesUnlimited]

Is it about his world travels before he became Superman? I know he did travel the world before becoming Superman and I even know that he got his start in journalism by writing about them. Is this the actual book that covers that? I've been looking for it for a while.

Yeah, that's it! I USED to have that book. God knows whatever happened to it. Once my comic collection exceeded 12 boxes, I knew I had to thin it out a little. Sadly, that may have been one of the casulties... :)

Have you tried ebay?

[xrayvision]

I'm reluctant to buy any from Ebay anymore. Last time I ordered the Batman Hush comics, the guy sent them without the plastic bags and there was tape stuck to the issues. You don't know how pissed I was.

It sucks. There are hardly any comic stores left & I can't find any comic conventions. The big conventions have been bastardized so badly. They're not even about comics anymore. Now they have all Star Wars crap and all sorts of Sci-Fi and other Hollywood stars. Back when I used to go to them in the early 90's as a kid, they used to be strictly comic books, comic cards, and some action figures. As soon as the cover prices rose like crazy, the comics industry was severely hurt & never recovered. I remember the popularity in the 80's & early 90's and how it dropped off once Valiant & Image showed up and Marvel & DC had all those special hologram & foil-embossed covers that nobody gave a crap about. It became less about the stories & more about the stupid covers.

I'm hoping there are still a few true comic conventions.

[HeroesUnlimited]

I'm reluctant to buy any from Ebay anymore. Last time I ordered the Batman Hush comics, the guy sent them without the plastic bags and there was tape stuck to the issues. You don't know how pissed I was.

It sucks. There are hardly any comic stores left & I can't find any comic conventions. The big conventions have been bastardized so badly. They're not even about comics anymore. Now they have all Star Wars crap and all sorts of Sci-Fi and other Hollywood stars. Back when I used to go to them in the early 90's as a kid, they used to be strictly comic books, comic cards, and some action figures. As soon as the cover prices rose like crazy, the comics industry was severely hurt & never recovered. I remember the popularity in the 80's & early 90's and how it dropped off once Valiant & Image showed up and Marvel & DC had all those special hologram & foil-embossed covers that nobody gave a crap about. It became less about the stories & more about the stupid covers.

I'm hoping there are still a few true comic conventions.

Agreed about the covers. They've gotten totally carried away. Each comic has like 6 or 7 different covers EVERY WEEK!
:lol: I can understand your apprehension with Ebay. But Amazon.com is pretty legitimate and they have several copies at a reasonable price. Do you have a comic shop near where you live?

----- Added 35 Seconds later -----

Holy Crap! Your Icon!!! lolololol!!!!!!!!

[xrayvision]

There are some in Manhattan, but they're pricey. There's one by me in Queens, but the owner doesn't have too many things left that I need. There is Wizard World also not that far from me (in Rockland county though). It used to be known as The Wizard and the same family that owns it is the one that started the price guide. But I haven't been there in years. There are some in Jersey too.

Maybe I'll check out some reputable sellers on Ebay. I'm not sure if Amazon is as reliable. There are some shops I go to up in New England when I'm up there, but I'm not planning to go there anytime soon.

[HeroesUnlimited]

There are some in Manhattan, but they're pricey. There's one by me in Queens, but the owner doesn't have too many things left that I need. There is Wizard World also not that far from me (in Rockland county though). It used to be known as The Wizard and the same family that owns it is the one that started the price guide. But I haven't been there in years. There are some in Jersey too.

Maybe I'll check out some reputable sellers on Ebay. I'm not sure if Amazon is as reliable. There are some shops I go to up in New England when I'm up there, but I'm not planning to go there anytime soon.

I have a very reliable shop 2 miles from my house. I had no idea New York was an "untapped" comic book market. They have everything else there...

[xrayvision]

I have a very reliable shop 2 miles from my house. I had no idea New York was an "untapped" comic book market. They have everything else there...

There used to be tons of stores, but many closed down when the comic prices shot up and interest shot down.

[Jawth]

@xrayvision: I do most of my comic shopping through Amazon, but I pretty much only buy in the collected form (Hardbacks or TPBs).

[HeroesUnlimited]

@xrayvision: I do most of my comic shopping through Amazon, but I pretty much only buy in the collected form (Hardbacks or TPBs).

Sadly, this is becoming the norm. Too many people are waiting for the trade paperbacks and it's driving down the sales of the single issues. It's hurting the industry. :(

[xrayvision]

For me, I just wish they reverted to the paper they used in the early 90's & earlier instead of the glossy type paper they print on now. It's cheaper & I'd rather spend less and enjoy the story than spend a lot of money just for the paper type.

It's similar to how college students would rather buy softcover textbooks than hardcover ones. It's the same thing, but cheaper. I'd rather have more effort spent on the content than the cover or paper or even the ink.

I used to be a huge Spider-Man fan and still get the old issues I'm missing. But DC was good back then & they're still writing good storylines. It just sucks I don't feel like shelling out all that money to buy the issues. Especially now that I'm unemployed.

[Jawth]

Sadly, this is becoming the norm. Too many people are waiting for the trade paperbacks and it's driving down the sales of the single issues. It's hurting the industry. :(

How is it hurting the industry exactly? Companies still get their money one way or the other, and collections can continue to make money for the company through later sales. That's something single issues cannot due. The collections have no adds, tell a complete (or at least a big chunk of one) and are alot easier to store. It's like saying DVDs hurt the movie industry.

That said, the nearest comic book shop for me is over an hour away, so if not for Amazon I really wouldn't be able to read much at all, aside from the very few titles sold in my local entertainment store.

[HeroesUnlimited]

It's similar to how college students would rather buy softcover textbooks than hardcover ones.

Correction: It's how college students would rather buy USED textbooks than NEW ones. College textbooks are a racket.


But DC was good back then & they're still writing good storylines.

It comes and goes. I fade in and fade out of certain titles. The Superman-Batman title was so bad for a few months that I just stopped buying it. I heard that they were bringing Doomsday back in it a few issues ago so I started back up again and it's been fine ever since. I don't know who your favorite writer but mine has always been Chuck Dixon. If I see his name on the cover, I know I'm getting a quality story.


Especially now that I'm unemployed.

Did you get laid off? What line of work were you in?

[xrayvision]

Chuck Dixon is pretty good.

Yeah, I got laid off. I was an engineer doing commissioning for new pharmaceutical buildings that the company I worked for was hired to build and renovate.

[HeroesUnlimited]

How is it hurting the industry exactly? Companies still get their money one way or the other, and collections can continue to make money for the company through later sales. That's something single issues cannot due. The collections have no adds, tell a complete (or at least a big chunk of one) and are alot easier to store. It's like saying DVDs hurt the movie industry.

That said, the nearest comic book shop for me is over an hour away, so if not for Amazon I really wouldn't be able to read much at all, aside from the very few titles sold in my local entertainment store.

Trade paperbacks are better for the consumer, but single issues are better for the merchants. Like you said, they get to sell advertising plus it's a weekly stream of income. Trade paperbacks only come out every few months or so. Personally, I'd "forget" when new books were coming out. Getting books every week keeps me from missing anything. Plus there's always that "impulse" buy. Something you see on the shelf that you hadn't planned on getting but are happy to see. Sometimes it may just be a single issue you want because a certain character is guest starring. With regard to not living close to a comic book shop, you can always subscribe (like a magazine). :)

----- Added 50 Seconds later -----


Chuck Dixon is pretty good.

Yeah, I got laid off. I was an engineer doing commissioning for new pharmaceutical buildings that the company I worked for was hired to build and renovate.

Chuck Dixon is my favorite Batman writer. Roger Stern is probably my favorite Superman writer.

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----

the guys they had writing Superman back in the 90s weren't bad. Byrne. Bogdonove (spelling?)

[Jawth]

Trade paperbacks are better for the consumer, but single issues are better for the merchants. Like you said, they get to sell advertising plus it's a weekly stream of income. Trade paperbacks only come out every few months or so. Personally, I'd "forget" when new books were coming out. Getting books every week keeps me from missing anything. Plus there's always that "impulse" buy. Something you see on the shelf that you hadn't planned on getting but are happy to see. Sometimes it may just be a single issue you want because a certain character is guest starring. With regard to not living close to a comic book shop, you can always subscribe (like a magazine). :)

----- Added 50 Seconds later -----



Chuck Dixon is my favorite Batman writer. Roger Stern is probably my favorite Superman writer.

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----

the guys they had writing Superman back in the 90s weren't bad. Byrne. Bogdonove (spelling?)

The Trades can be sold years after their original print date for more income for the sellers. They can also be used to make it much easier to jump into established a monthly series. In fact, trade paperbacks were on of the things that stopped Marvel from going into bankrupcy in the 90's. I even know some comic adicts that buy both the single issues and the collections. Trust me, if the collections didn't make the companies money, they simply wouldn't print them.

Dixon was one of my favorites. His run on Nightwing was one of my favorite arcs in comics period. My favorite author is Grant Morrison though. All Star Superman is true bliss.

Geof Johns is pretty awesome too, which is why the editors pretty much let him do whatever the hell he wants.

[xrayvision]

I also liked Alan Grant (writer) & Breyfogle & Mitchell (penciler & inker) who used to do Detective comics & Jim Starlin, Jim Aparo & Mike DeCarlo (writer, penciler & inker) who did Batman issues.

I loved this cover & how they put the names on tombstones:

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/marvel_dc/images/f/f5/Detective_Comics_610.jpg

Here is one of my favorites by Starlin, Aparo & DeCarlo:

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/marvel_dc/images/3/37/Batman_416.jpg

You don't know how many times I read Batman 416. It had a great story with Jason Todd as Robin & Dick Grayson as Nightwing. I loved Batman calling Jason sloppy throughout the beginning of the issue. You could see how reluctant he was in having Jason be Robin.

My favorite issues of Batman were the ones subtitled The New Adventures. I loved how different Jason was from Dick after the Crisis re-write of his past. I was so pissed when they killed him off & so happy when he returned as the Red Hood. I'm hoping he becomes the new Batman after what happened to Bruce.

[Jawth]

SPOILERS!










You're aware Jason is insane and shot a ten year old kid in the chest to run away from Nightwing, right?

[Kryptochloe]

Despite she has made mistakes, and wrong desicions.. i'm still on her side...

[HeroesUnlimited]

The Trades can be sold years after their original print date for more income for the sellers. They can also be used to make it much easier to jump into established a monthly series. In fact, trade paperbacks were on of the things that stopped Marvel from going into bankrupcy in the 90's. I even know some comic adicts that buy both the single issues and the collections. Trust me, if the collections didn't make the companies money, they simply wouldn't print them.

Dixon was one of my favorites. His run on Nightwing was one of my favorite arcs in comics period. My favorite author is Grant Morrison though. All Star Superman is true bliss.

Geof Johns is pretty awesome too, which is why the editors pretty much let him do whatever the hell he wants.

I think the trade paperback was the industry's attempt to make comic books more mainstream. People like the idea of having one self-contained story in one book they can buy (without having to commit to monthly obligation). But I think the more serious comic book fans still buy their issues weekly (just my opinion). I think the hope is, by making comic books more "mainstream", they can get new readers "hooked".

I really started liking Dixon when wrote Robin. He really has a good understanding of what the Bat "family" characters are all about he writes great villains (lady shiva, king snake, etc.). I also like Grant Morrison (and XRayVision's suggestion, Alan Grant). I like the guys who know the characters well enough that they can (and have) written entire novels about them (as Roger Stern has with Superman, Alan Grant has with Batman, etc.). By the way, keep your eyes open for a new novel called "Enemies and Allies" by Kevin Anderson, the same guy who wrote The Last Days of Krypton. It's supposed to be set in the 50s and details the first meeting of Superman and Batman (during the cold war I think). Mine is already on the way. I ordered it from Amazon.

----- Added 3 Minutes later -----


I also liked Alan Grant (writer) & Breyfogle & Mitchell (penciler & inker) who used to do Detective comics & Jim Starlin, Jim Aparo & Mike DeCarlo (writer, penciler & inker) who did Batman issues.

I loved this cover & how they put the names on tombstones:

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/marvel_dc/images/f/f5/Detective_Comics_610.jpg

Here is one of my favorites by Starlin, Aparo & DeCarlo:

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/marvel_dc/images/3/37/Batman_416.jpg

You don't know how many times I read Batman 416. It had a great story with Jason Todd as Robin & Dick Grayson as Nightwing. I loved Batman calling Jason sloppy throughout the beginning of the issue. You could see how reluctant he was in having Jason be Robin.

My favorite issues of Batman were the ones subtitled The New Adventures. I loved how different Jason was from Dick after the Crisis re-write of his past. I was so pissed when they killed him off & so happy when he returned as the Red Hood. I'm hoping he becomes the new Batman after what happened to Bruce.

I can't stand this new Jason Todd. I think it was a huge stretch turning him into a villain. It was a huge stretch bringing him back at ALL. My favorite Robin (bar none) is Tim Drake, probably because of how well Chuck Dixon wrote him. BTW, is Tim Drake even still alive? This new story arc they're doing with Batman dying has me confused. I'm not even sure HOW he died. Everything's a mystery. At least when Superman "died", we KNOW how it happened, lol.

[Jawth]

I think the trade paperback was the industry's attempt to make comic books more mainstream. People like the idea of having one self-contained story in one book they can buy (without having to commit to monthly obligation). But I think the more serious comic book fans still buy their issues weekly (just my opinion). I think the hope is, by making comic books more "mainstream", they can get new readers "hooked".

I can't stand this new Jason Todd. I think it was a huge stretch turning him into a villain. It was a huge stretch bringing him back at ALL. My favorite Robin (bar none) is Tim Drake, probably because of how well Chuck Dixon wrote him. BTW, is Tim Drake even still alive? This new story arc they're doing with Batman dying has me confused. I'm not even sure HOW he died. Everything's a mystery. At least when Superman "died", we KNOW how it happened, lol.

I'm done with the trade arguement. It's clear DC and Marvel make money with them or they wouldn't continue to print them. Queseda (sp?) has said multiple times that trades are one of the main reasons Marvel didn't collaspe during the 90's. Massive sales from trades like Death of Superman, Watchmen, Dark Knight Returns, Civil War, etc. Prove this.

As for the Batman storyline.....SPOILERS!










"Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader?" is completely non-canon. Batman died in Final Crisis #6, when Darkseid hit him with the Omega sanction. This sent Bruce's soul through time, forcing him to live life after life, each one progressively more miserable than the last.

Jason *did* stab Tim in the chest with a batarang (mirroring how his dad died from Captain Boomerang in Identity Crisis), but he isn't dead. All signs point to him becoming Red Robin:
http://www.dccomics.com/dcu/comics/?cm=11868

Dick will most likely be Batman, with Damien Wayne as his Robin.

[HeroesUnlimited]

I'm done with the trade arguement. It's clear DC and Marvel make money with them or they wouldn't continue to print them. Queseda (sp?) has said multiple times that trades are one of the main reasons Marvel didn't collaspe during the 90's. Massive sales from trades like Death of Superman, Watchmen, Dark Knight Returns, Civil War, etc. Prove this.

You sound a little defensive and you shouldn't be. I never said trade paperbacks didn't earn DC and Marvel money. But that doesn't mean it's their "preferred" product either. In Marvel's case, it was a matter of either adapt or go under. They didn't have a choice but to try to become more mainstream. I don't think the car companies are really "big" on the idea of hybrids either for that matter but they realize that if they don't have at least some hybrid models available to their customers, they'll lose business. More "necessary" than "ideal".