[To kill or not to kill] Which side are you on? Clark's or Oliver? [Archive]

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Alexander III

04-30-2009, 07:03 PM

green_arrow_girl358

04-30-2009, 07:05 PM

i am beginning to believe clark is a wimp. not that killing is cool, but considering the circumstances. i think ollie needs to converse with jor el and do a johnathan for some krypto powers

Timester

04-30-2009, 07:06 PM

Clark on the other hand, will not kill an ant because he's weak! :p

Honestly, I keep reading this and I don't understand. How is Clark weak because he doesn't kill someone? Since when caring about life makes someone weak?

'Tonio09

04-30-2009, 07:08 PM

Im definitely on Oliver's side. Seeing this episode made me HATE Davis to the fullest. He needs to be destroyed!

thehenry89

04-30-2009, 07:08 PM

I agree with oliver but I support clark does that make sense? :lol:

superman07

04-30-2009, 07:08 PM

i did love how Clark was ready and willing to throw him into the Phantom Zone instead of letting him stay on Earth, but i agree with Oliver. Kill him for good, if that was possible, that way he couldn't ever comeback. EVER!

Darth Pipes

04-30-2009, 07:08 PM

You know, even Comic Book Superman knew he had to kill Doomsday in 1992. He knew that was the only way to stop the monster.

Although we know nothing can kill the monster so putting him in the Phantom Zone is the smartest thing.

Night_Hawk90

04-30-2009, 07:08 PM

clark's side

Timester

04-30-2009, 07:10 PM

You know, even Comic Book Superman knew he had to kill Doomsday in 1992. He knew that was the only way to stop the monster.

Nope. Clark never fought Doomsday with the intention of killing him.

----- Added 55 Seconds later -----

Kill him for good, if that was possible, that way he couldn't ever comeback. EVER!

Contradiction there.

Darth Pipes

04-30-2009, 07:11 PM

That's why I said Superman. As he was fighting, he knew he had to be as unforgiving as DD.

Timester

04-30-2009, 07:12 PM

Seriously, people, we are watching a Superman show. The MAIN message of Superman was always "find a third way".

amandaa125

04-30-2009, 07:12 PM

I think Oliver's right. But i agree with clark on the whole not killing at any cost thing. Phantom zone would have been a solution for both. No davis and no killing.

O'Neill

04-30-2009, 07:13 PM

Clarks problem is that his heart is bigger than his brain... and in his shoes, its a bad thing! A very bad thing. He's the kind of "superhero" that will turn his back on his enemy, only to be killed by the one he showed mercy too.

Sure it sounds all cudley, but Clark is an idiot. Not just a regular idiot... he's one of those stupid idiots that cant even make his own choices because his diaper needs changing.

Hopefully, one day, he'll take his diaper off, put on some big boy shorts, and start taking care of business.

I support Oliver all the way!!

amberdawn

04-30-2009, 07:13 PM

Oliver's. Doomsday is a risk to humanity.

Supsfan

04-30-2009, 07:13 PM

I will go with Clark, unleash him into the Phantom Zone, and while Clark is at it send Chloe there with him

'Tonio09

04-30-2009, 07:13 PM

TomTom44

04-30-2009, 07:14 PM

He killed before, so what's the problem? He killed that phantom guy in that fight episode. He didn't seem to have any problems with that. Why would Doomsday be any different?

Timester

04-30-2009, 07:14 PM

That's why I said Superman. As he was fighting, he knew he had to be as unforgiving as DD.

Superman is Clark, I don't separate them when I referring to one or another.

He knew he had to be as relentless as Doomsday in order to stop him, he NEVER fought with the intent to kill him.

REebee52

04-30-2009, 07:14 PM

Erm... It's tough. I feel like Phantom Zone, for a normal person, is infinitely worse than death. But for Doomsday it would be paradise... The other thing is you CAN'T kill Doomsday. Doesn't Clark realize this? He can beat him over and over again and he'll keep getting stronger, which means Clark is right to try not to kill him.

But yes, Clark knew he had to beat Doomsday to a pulp in '92. So kill him, get him away where he can be reborn but trapped.

Superman does not kill, I feel, unless it's absolutely necessary. He will never execute, and would never kill anybody he could subdue otherwise, but he showed in the Doomsday Battle that he will but his life and his morals behind the lives of millions. So eventually he might kill him. Then send him away.

aceofclubs

04-30-2009, 07:14 PM

I'm on Ollies side, Clark shoulda did whats necessary to ensure Doomsday was destroyed. He isnt even a person, hes an alien who was created from genetic goop, kill him!

Poyntz

04-30-2009, 07:14 PM

Killing him would put him out of his misery. Putting him in the phantom zone makes him suffer and have a possiblity of him coming back if he gets released like Zod and Fiona. Not to mention he would kill all the people that arnt phanthoms that are in the zone which woudl be like clark murdering them because he sent Doomsy there.

Its a tough call.. any option C?

Besides he can't be killed. he keeps coming back. So how is he supose to kill him anyways?

REebee52

04-30-2009, 07:15 PM

Superman is Clark, I don't separate them when I referring to one or another.

He knew he had to be as relentless as Doomsday in order to stop him, he NEVER fought with the intent to kill him.

Right, but he realized he couldn't pull any punches, and if it was going to kill Doomsday it had to happen.

AdamTyree

04-30-2009, 07:16 PM

I also support olliver, the ends would definitly justify the means!

Timester

04-30-2009, 07:17 PM

Superman does not kill, I feel, unless it's absolutely necessary.

Not even when it's an absolutely necessity.

----- Added 32 Seconds later -----

Its a tough call.. any option C?

Space Rocket.

amberdawn

04-30-2009, 07:18 PM

He needs to kill Doomsday. There's just no other way this can end. Nothing can help Davis.

rehana/chole

04-30-2009, 07:19 PM

i think olli is on that drug that lex men inject him an chole in bing of season 8 . rem it controll mind well something is controllen olli n chole casue there r sure not them slef

Timester

04-30-2009, 07:19 PM

He needs to kill Doomsday. There's just no other way this can end. Nothing can help Davis.

That's the other thing, killing him doesn't stop anything.

kg1507

04-30-2009, 07:19 PM

Clark. Davis dosen't want to be this monster - he has no choice. He deserves to live.

REebee52

04-30-2009, 07:20 PM

Not even when it's an absolutely necessity.

----- Added 32 Seconds later -----

Space Rocket.

But he did. He has. He's killed Doomsday and, if worse came to worse, I imagine he'd stick it to Darkseid.

AndiGirl

04-30-2009, 07:20 PM

Honestly, I keep reading this and I don't understand. How is Clark weak because he doesn't kill someone? Since when caring about life makes someone weak?

Yes, but then Chloe gets all sorts of flack from people for trying to do the same thing? :confused:

Sorry..but people really need to make up their minds around here!:lol:
it's ok for one character...but not another?

warriorrenegade

04-30-2009, 07:21 PM

Not Kill cause that's Clarks true nature. Eventually he'll have no choice but to kill DD. It should be something that he comes to realize on his own. Not be bludgend over the head about "Killing is the only way" from good O'l Ollie.

Alexander III

04-30-2009, 07:22 PM

I will go with Clark, unleash him into the Phantom Zone, and while Clark is at it send Chloe there with him

Haha :lol::rotfl: send her there for sure!!

kp1984

04-30-2009, 07:22 PM

[QUOTE=green_arrow_girl358;4788193]i am beginning to believe clark is a wimp. not that killing is cool, but considering the circumstances. i think ollie needs to converse with jor el and do a johnathan for some krypto powers[/QUOT
Yeah lana and Eric summer should tell Oliver the way a human can have krypto powers. Be cool if he did get powers and fought Davis. He might actually win since he already knows how to fight.

Timester

04-30-2009, 07:23 PM

But he did. He has. He's killed Doomsday and, if worse came to worse, I imagine he'd stick it to Darkseid.

He didn't killed Doomsday. That's the part everyone is forgetting. Both simply got to the end of their energies. Doomsday was happily laughing on space a few months after it.

myankskent

04-30-2009, 07:24 PM

He should've been locked away in the phantom zone, but apparently TPTB want us to believe that locking Davis in there is wrong, even after he did what he did. What a joke.

REebee52

04-30-2009, 07:24 PM

He didn't killed Doomsday. That's the part everyone is forgetting. Both simply got to the end of their energies. Doomsday was happily laughing on space a few months after it.

That wasn't the original case. When it was written, at the time, neither Superman nor his writers new Doomsday would be back. It was a killing blow. Superman knew the stakes. It shows his willingness.

dreamscometrue

04-30-2009, 07:25 PM

The one thing that Clark is known for is saving the world, no matter what the cost. Taking one life, and saving millions. I say there is no discussion there.
Totally on Oliver's side.

lm1212

04-30-2009, 07:25 PM

Clark's Phantom Zone plan was flawless, until someone RUINED it.

Melekith

04-30-2009, 07:26 PM

I'm on Clark's side all the way, but I can alos see why Oliver would say "kill". This episode was a 10 to me until Chloe intervened in the fortress...then it became a 9. Clark's plan to put Davis in the phantom zone would satisfy EVERYONE'S goal (except Chloe).

ClarkyBoy14

04-30-2009, 07:26 PM

Clark's... I think.

The world would be safer if Clark killed Doomsday, but that's not really possible, and I like that Clark has a no-kill policy.

Putting him in the Phantom Zone would have been smart.

warriorrenegade

04-30-2009, 07:29 PM

Yes, Clark locking DD in the PZ is the only logical choice. But then to have Chloe show up and decide "for Clark" that putting him there would be too much of a guilt trip for him to handle, was a joke. Clark will have to "kill" DD, it's a given, but he'll come to that conclusion on his own.

Timester

04-30-2009, 07:30 PM

That wasn't the original case. When it was written, at the time, neither Superman nor his writers new Doomsday would be back. It was a killing blow. Superman knew the stakes. It shows his willingness.

It was a mutual punch, not a killing blow. The narrator even compared it to a boxing flight, when both gave their last energies on that punch.

Rainchyld

04-30-2009, 07:31 PM

I'm on Oliver's side.... but not because he wants to kill Doomsday. As someone said above, Clark is right not to try to kill Doomsday without knowing how to specifically get the job done because all it will do is just make Doomsday stronger.

I agree with Oliver because of what he said in terms of reminding Clark that HE needs to be the one to make his decisions. He pretty much told Clark to stop letting Chloe make his decisions for him or he'll never be the hero he's meant to be.

Oliver has never been more right than he was in that moment.

hookem91

04-30-2009, 07:31 PM

clarks side 100%. partly because oliver is going down a wrong path, he killed lex for the "greater good" now he wants to kill davis. the guy is too kill-happy

SupermanRox

04-30-2009, 07:32 PM

For once, I'm on Oliver's side. I think that the good of the world should be taken into consideration where Doomsday is concerned. His life for everyone else's. It really is a no brainer for me.

Timester

04-30-2009, 07:33 PM

Clark will have to "kill" DD, it's a given, but he'll come to that conclusion on his own.

Precisaly. Killing Doomsday shouldn't be a decision, like Ollie is imposing on Clark, but a last minute solution, when there is nothing more to do.

Sports72Xtrm

04-30-2009, 07:35 PM

The PZ idea was practical and could have worked. I'm on team Clark.

REebee52

04-30-2009, 07:36 PM

It was a mutual punch, not a killing blow. The narrator even compared it to a boxing flight, when both gave their last energies on that punch.

But it was a killing blow. At the point, each character was 'dead.' Superman was always coming back, but Doomsday was dead. They then made him immortal and he came back, haunting Superman's dreams. But he was, at that point willing to kill

Precisaly. Killing Doomsday shouldn't be a decision, like Ollie is imposing on Clark, but a last minute solution, when there is nothing more to do.

Right. Exactly. I'm not saying Superman planned on doing it, it was a last minute necessary choice.

amberdawn

04-30-2009, 07:40 PM

I can't really blame Oliver for imposing on Clark. He's worried, as he should be.

Timester

04-30-2009, 07:41 PM

But it was a killing blow. At the point, each character was 'dead.' Superman was always coming back, but Doomsday was dead. They then made him immortal and he came back, haunting Superman's dreams. But he was, at that point willing to kill

Honestly, I have the book right next to me. I know what I'm saying.

Besides, Doomsday came back from the death before Clark did. But it's just a little detail.

curiosity

04-30-2009, 07:42 PM

I'm on Oliver's side. He was almost killed by Davis. But I understand's Clark's decision, especially since he had a way to banish him.

Timester

04-30-2009, 07:43 PM

I can't really blame Oliver for imposing on Clark. He's worried, as he should be.

Instead of imposing, he should try figure out other solutions. And the solution is actually closer to Ollie than to Clark.

Space Rocket. It worked with Superman Cyborg.

super_j_man

04-30-2009, 07:44 PM

SVFancross

04-30-2009, 07:46 PM

He isnt even a person, hes an alien who was created from genetic goop, kill him! He's a sentient being. Being an alien should not make his life less of a life. Clark should not kill.

And honestly, I'm opposed to sending Doomsday to the PZ for three reasons:
1) Chloe thinks she has a potential solution and wants to try to save someone who had no choice in becoming Doomsday. Davis has fought this all year long. Even if he was saved, OTOH, his killing of "bad people" is still WRONG WRONG WRONG. If he's cured, he should be in a prison -- on earth (but besides the fact that he won't be cured, it doesn't work that way on SV).
2) Jor-El made the Phantom Zone to punish criminals, not kill them. Sending Doomsday there kills them. Not really in keeping with what Clark should do. He should send Doomsday where NO ONE is.***
3) IA with others, who says the PZ would keep him in anyway. There's alot of uncertainty to this solution.

With Chloe having found a potential "third way" that Clark had been looking for -- AND because Clark apparently let them go --- I think this was the right choice. Give him a chance for a cure.

*** Seriously, think about it. Clark would not literally have the blood of the criminals on his hands but he would be responsible for their deaths. Is that Superman? Is it okay because they are criminals?

REebee52

04-30-2009, 07:55 PM

Honestly, I have the book right next to me. I know what I'm saying.

Besides, Doomsday came back from the death before Clark did. But it's just a little detail.

I know exactly what it said. It's phrased in such a way that both of their last breaths were put into killing the other. That's what the phrasing means. It was a last ditch, killing blow. Everyone read it that way, that's how it was written.

consti2tion

04-30-2009, 08:08 PM

He should have thrown Chloe and Davis into the Phantom Zone.

kris10

04-30-2009, 08:26 PM

Seriously, people, we are watching a Superman show. The MAIN message of Superman was always "find a third way".

ITA/in the death of superman he knew he had to kill him there was no other way....
Clark doesnt know that right now..both chloe and clark are right they have to find another way which is what i think chloe's doing next ep....

he ALWAYS tries to find a way not to kill anyone. Davis isnt a terrible guy but the doom in him is and thats what makes him difficult hes not the TOTAL doomsday(not yet)

if he were to kill him or have him tortured in the phantom zone that defeats the whole purpose of superman.......oh by the way chloe is getting thrown to the wolves but when she had the key clark damn well knows where it goes too its not like he couldnt have been there in a second HE LET THEM GO.hmmmmmm why would he do that???

the only 2 characters who understand what superman really should be is chloe and eventually clark because he didnt disagree with her when she told him it wasnt right(although i think he was more concerned with her having feelings for davis-hmmmmm odd?)

Kschreck

04-30-2009, 08:28 PM

Considering Doomsday is murdering people on a daily basis and Clark STILL isn't doing anything about it, I have to side with Oliver on this one. Clark is suppose to be progressing but you know what? Clark from five or so years ago would never have let this get so out of hand. Clark has always dealt with problems like this by himself without taking an entire season and a graveyard of people to finally make a decision to defeat the enemy.

SVFancross

04-30-2009, 08:29 PM

In the comics... does Superman send people to the PZ? I'm seriously asking, I don't know.

Also --- wasn't the purpose of the PZ to NOT KILL?

kris10

04-30-2009, 08:31 PM

So after reading some of these posts, I guess I'm not the only one who wanted to roundhouse kick Chloe in the face for stopping Clark in the fortress. What was she thinking?? I with Clark in not killing Doomsday because the show (IMO) screwed up by giving him a human side. If he was the Doomsday we know from the mythos, then I would have been on Ollie's side. The phantom zone would be the perfect alternative to killing him. I did like Ollie's lecturing Chloe about harvesting Davis. She knows that something can and more than likely will go wrong with him still being around. So I think the whole protecting Clark babble was indeed pure crap! Shame on you Chloe.

Okay sorry for the rant. Pretty much I'm with Clark all the way! (which is an unusual oddity)
oh so the show screwed up doomsday but lets roundhouse chloe...nice...they did it for the angsty drama...

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----

In the comics... does Superman send people to the PZ? I'm seriously asking, I don't know.

Also --- wasn't the purpose of the PZ to NOT KILL?
doomsday would go in there balls to the wall and kill em all dude.

Mrs. Superman

04-30-2009, 08:34 PM

I'm with Clark. He can find a way, and I thought the PZ was a great solution. Too bad that didnt go according to plan. :\

kris10

04-30-2009, 08:35 PM

Precisaly. Killing Doomsday shouldn't be a decision, like Ollie is imposing on Clark, but a last minute solution, when there is nothing more to do.
ita/i think ollie answer to everything right now is to kill it...
besides if chloe calms the beast and she makes the decision to stay with him then so what OMG she is soooo bad. the only thing is that we KNOW what will happen she doesnt and even olliver and clark know that he calms when she is around she's just such a terrible person.

ollie allegedly killed lex and we know that clark would never do that...lex is going to and has killed more people than doomsday but if this were a debate about killing lex be a different ball game.

BadToad

04-30-2009, 08:48 PM

I want to say Clark, but I think the show is being written in such a way to make it clear that the intent is for Oliver to be right.

Yes, I think TPTB are writing a young Superman story and rejecting what the character stands for, and writing him as weak and indecisive and "resonsible for bad thing" by actually being in character.

Its a headscratcher, and I have no clue why anyone would write a show about a young Superman and NOT be on his side or in his corner, or believe in his philosophy, but I think thats exactly what we've currently got with SV.

targis

04-30-2009, 08:48 PM

ita/i think ollie answer to everything right now is to kill it...
besides if chloe calms the beast and she makes the decision to stay with him then so what OMG she is soooo bad. the only thing is that we KNOW what will happen she doesnt and even olliver and clark know that he calms when she is around she's just such a terrible person.

ollie allegedly killed lex and we know that clark would never do that...lex is going to and has killed more people than doomsday but if this were a debate about killing lex be a different ball game.
Lex isn't some unstopable monster from outer space. KILL IT KILL IT

haydenclaireheroes

04-30-2009, 08:49 PM

Oliver: Kill Davis, save mankind

Clark: Avoid to kill in any situations

Which side are u on?? For me, Oliver reminds me of Lex :D. Clark on the other hand, will not kill an ant because he's weak! :p

i am on clarks's side because if you kill one and have blood on your hands once then ehat is a couple more times and more and then he will becomes a killer.

AndiGirl

04-30-2009, 08:52 PM

It's hard to say....they are both to the extreme.

Ollie: Kill...KILL!!!!
Clark: I dont want to hurt anyone...EVER.

A nice medium perhaps? :p

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----

i am on clarks's side because if you kill one and have blood on your hands once then ehat is a couple more times and more and then he will becomes a killer.

I think my delima is....Clark will have blood on his hands no matter what.
Choosing not to act, and letting people die....is almost as bad as killing them yourself.

Clark cant seem to realize that....atleast not at this point. You spare Davis....you risk the lives of others......you kill Davis, then you're taking a life. But those lives Davis takes...are officially on your plate if you had the chance to act and didnt.

It's almost like watching someone being murdered. If you just stand there.....arent you partially responsible...because you chose to do nothing?

I also think it's just crappy writing...IMO. :o

CreamPuffer

04-30-2009, 09:04 PM

Honestly, I keep reading this and I don't understand. How is Clark weak because he doesn't kill someone? Since when caring about life makes someone weak?

Completely agree. If anything, killing someone is the easier move and the easy way out of solving a situation. (in case of Davis of course not Zod or whatever)

Clark's "avoid killing rule" is what makes him a true hero because he values life and is willing to give his all. Batman has the same "no kill rule" as well and so does Spiderman. That's exactly what makes a hero great.

Larel

04-30-2009, 09:08 PM

Im definitely on Oliver's side. Seeing this episode made me HATE Davis to the fullest. He needs to be destroyed!

Me too & can I just say how much I love Olie!:D
They better not kill him in the finale or I will lose it!:mad:

dorsydoll

04-30-2009, 09:09 PM

Phantom Zone would have been the worst idea... even though i dont support "Our Hero Chloe":rolleyes: idea to not trap him there, im kinda happy she did. Remember what Kara said and how she was when they found her in the Phantom Zone. You lose all humanity in that place and if Davis were to be sent there, he would have lost all the little humanity he had in him making him truly the ultimate destroyer. eventually he would have escaped because whether we like it or not the writers would have brought him back. And then oh we know how angry he would have been at Clark. he would have probably killed everyone he came across and if possible gone after Lois Lane. We cant have that now can we.

The only reasonable option would be to kill davis theres no other choice and even if Clark says he cant kill a human remember Davis is NOT human he is patches of kryptonian matter. Clark killed brainiac didnt he when he said you're not human whats the difference???

Clark seriously needs to grow up and take action if hes waiting for Davis to kill or hurt someone he loves before he takes action then... something is twisted upstairs. Chloe has changed he needs to accept that and if he thinks sending Davis to the phantom zone will stop him then he is WRONG. it wouldn't stop him, it would only postpone the problem making it ridiculously harder when it resurfaces.

consti2tion

04-30-2009, 09:14 PM

doomsday would go in there balls to the wall and kill em all dude.

That's a risk I'm willing to take.. haha.

----- Added 2 Minutes later -----

i am on clarks's side because if you kill one and have blood on your hands once then ehat is a couple more times and more and then he will becomes a killer.

But the thing is it's not his killing an innocent child, it's freaking DOOMSDAY.. enough said, end him.

----- Added 5 Minutes later -----

Clark seriously needs to grow up and take action if hes waiting for Davis to kill or hurt someone he loves before he takes action then... something is twisted upstairs. Chloe has changed he needs to accept that and if he thinks sending Davis to the phantom zone will stop him then he is WRONG. it wouldn't stop him, it would only postpone the problem making it ridiculously harder when it resurfaces.

That's most likely what it's gonna take for him to do something about it unfortunately.

shanemak

04-30-2009, 09:38 PM

And honestly, I'm opposed to sending Doomsday to the PZ for three reasons:
1) Chloe thinks she has a potential solution and wants to try to save someone who had no choice in becoming Doomsday. Davis has fought this all year long. Even if he was saved, OTOH, his killing of "bad people" is still WRONG WRONG WRONG. If he's cured, he should be in a prison -- on earth (but besides the fact that he won't be cured, it doesn't work that way on SV).
2) Jor-El made the Phantom Zone to punish criminals, not kill them. Sending Doomsday there kills them. Not really in keeping with what Clark should do. He should send Doomsday where NO ONE is.***
3) IA with others, who says the PZ would keep him in anyway. There's alot of uncertainty to this solution.

With Chloe having found a potential "third way" that Clark had been looking for -- AND because Clark apparently let them go --- I think this was the right choice. Give him a chance for a cure.

*** Seriously, think about it. Clark would not literally have the blood of the criminals on his hands but he would be responsible for their deaths. Is that Superman? Is it okay because they are criminals?

The PZ was a terrible idea. Who's to say DD wouldn't have tossed Clark in there instead? But I think I'm gonna have to side with Ollie on this one. I just don't see any conceivable way around it. It's kill or be killed.

Edit: Maybe Clark should try to slip a blue kryptonite ring on Davis, just to see if it works. If it does its all good.

NinaDavis

04-30-2009, 09:47 PM

In this particular case I'm at Ollie side. Davis/Doomsday is a lab experiment not a person.

B_M4N

04-30-2009, 09:48 PM

The solution to the problem is simple Clark should grab Davis and throw him into outerspace no muss no fuss Davis is still alive without being sent to the phantom zone and Clark doesn't have to kill him giving DD plenty of time to eventually circle back around to Earth a few years down the line when Clark has become Superman

Smallville Vamp

04-30-2009, 09:51 PM

I voted for Clark. He was sending him to the PZ not killing him. Not a whole lot he could do with him besides that as far as I'm concerned

consti2tion

04-30-2009, 09:53 PM

Bizarrolover

04-30-2009, 09:58 PM

I'm with Clark, Doomsday can't be killed, it will always come back to life. The PZ was the best solution.

magickal

04-30-2009, 09:58 PM

Kill him, then toss the remains into the Phantom Zone, just to be sure.

Steve-El

04-30-2009, 10:02 PM

I have to be on Oliver's side this time. Even though he said he'll deal with Doomsday himself, but Clark needs to realize that Davis is not human, he's Doomsday inside. Like what Ollie said to him, "you're gonna have to make a tough decision. It's what heroes do."

kryptotrite

04-30-2009, 10:03 PM

I'm always, always, always on Clark's side. His morals and ethics will make him Superman. No other hero is like him.

Lilah

04-30-2009, 10:21 PM

I'm on Oliver's side.

Clark spent his high school years sometimes killing meteor freaks, who WERE actually people and he's throwing this pansy tantrum over killing a genetically created monster from Krypton.... uh.... give me a fudging break!

morrigan01

04-30-2009, 10:49 PM

As I said before, this whole argument is pointless, because Davis/Doomsday can't be killed.

Clark had the right idea wanting to send him to the Phantom Zone, until Chloe effed it up. :rolleyes:

Lilah

04-30-2009, 11:23 PM

Doomsday can be killed. Superman kills him in the comic.

Lis

04-30-2009, 11:41 PM

Clark's side. Always!

Exedore

04-30-2009, 11:46 PM

Doomsday can be killed. The catch is that he doesn't stay dead for long. And you can never kill him the same way twice.

I want to say Clark, but I think the show is being written in such a way to make it clear that the intent is for Oliver to be right.

Yes, I think TPTB are writing a young Superman story and rejecting what the character stands for, and writing him as weak and indecisive and "resonsible for bad thing" by actually being in character.

Its a headscratcher, and I have no clue why anyone would write a show about a young Superman and NOT be on his side or in his corner, or believe in his philosophy, but I think thats exactly what we've currently got with SV.

Agreed. :(

morrigan01

04-30-2009, 11:58 PM

Doomsday can be killed. Superman kills him in the comic.

Yeah and then Doomsday came back to life awhile later when Superman was still dead. They (well Superman Cyborg actually) end up strapping Doomsday to an asteroid and sending him into space to get rid of him.

So like I said before, this argument is pointless, Doomsday can't be killed.

scifigirl

05-01-2009, 12:03 AM

As annoying and seemingly illogical as it makes him look sometimes, I admire Clark for not taking the expedient solution. Besides, I think that putting Davis in the Phantom Zone was a good idea.

wingster55

05-01-2009, 12:06 AM

Clark's
Under normal circumstances heroes cannot and should not kill.

Mr. Clark Kent27

05-01-2009, 12:08 AM

I'd have to say Clark and definetly. As much as I want Clark to kick Doomsday's ass as Oliver teased, I wouldn't want Clark choosing to murder someone, or take a life.

Oliver has pretty much become a murderer this season. He just wants vengence on Lex just because of Lionel. He's being stupid.

Clark is actually thinking. If Oliver still wasn't on his mind on killing Lex, he wouldn't have asked Clark to kill Doomsday.

But Clark will eventually kick Doomsday's ass, or that scene will kick ass, whatever. I mean Doomsday should at first be a little more powerful than Clark, and because in the comics, Superman dies from Doomsday beating him up.

Lilah

05-01-2009, 12:44 AM

Yeah and then Doomsday came back to life awhile later when Superman was still dead. They (well Superman Cyborg actually) end up strapping Doomsday to an asteroid and sending him into space to get rid of him.

So like I said before, this argument is pointless, Doomsday can't be killed.

Doesn't mean Clark won't try. It's mythology.... they can't skip that important piece of Superman history.

joits

05-01-2009, 04:37 AM

i'm definitely on oliver's side when it comes to davis. davis isn't human. he's an engineered killing machine who has no other purpose in life. clark is still a child if he thinks that he can save davis. how many others does davis have to kill before clark gets it through that super thick skull of his? and okay fine, he doesn't kill anyone, so he actually came up with a good plan. the phantom zone is a prison of sorts... so i still cannot believe he didn't just throw davis in the phantom zone. murderers usually get life sentences if the death penalty is out. so why would he feel guilty about putting davis in the phantom zone? how he let chloe convince him otherwise is just further proof that this clark kent is MILES away from being superman. i still watch the show but the longer it goes, it's starting to make it seem like clark will never become the superhero that we all know.

in the latest superman/doomsday animated movie, superman did kill doomsday. canon always changes. so maybe in some comic doomsday couldn't be killed... but the most recent thing to be released showed superman killing doomsday... which of course resulted in superman's death... albeit a temporary one.

BackToTheLies

05-01-2009, 06:14 AM

I'm still not particularly on Oliver's side (just because I've never killed so eh...what can I say) but is there anything even redeeming about Davis' life worth protecting?

It's not like he's a stand up character anymore. The scene with Jimmy and Oliver shows just how concious he is of his decision to become a serial killer to stay in control. He selectively chooses and Doomsday has corrupted even the "camouflage" side of himself.

costas22

05-01-2009, 06:21 AM

Oliver has had his hands dirty and wants everyone else to do the same apparently. The Phantom Zone was the best idea.

REebee52

05-01-2009, 06:23 AM

I feel like putting Doomsday in the phantom zone would be like a paradise for the monster, it's the Davis Bloom thing that seems to be bothering Clark. Eventually that part needs to go bye-bye, leaving only the murderous beast. And if Clark gets tossed in, who cares, he can get out using the portals.

amalie

05-01-2009, 06:23 AM

While I can understand the reasoning behind both arguments, I'm with Clark. He found a way to deal with the situation without having to take any lives, it's just a shame a certain someone got in the way.

badraven

05-01-2009, 06:25 AM

Clark's. Without question. Someone with Clark's power should never try and take the shortcut. No one has made Clark judge, jury and executioner. He should always try and find another way. That is the essence of Superman. Even in the comic books when Superman killed Doomsday he only did it because he was trying to stop him and it was the only way. In SV Clark came up with the best option. Send Doomsday to the Phantom Zone where he could never hurt anyone again. And it would have worked if Chole hadn't interfered. I never understand why SV as a show keeps pushing the "have Clark kill" option over and over again. It just isn't Superman.

AntMagister

05-01-2009, 06:36 AM

It's a pretty complicate argument, but in the end i'm on Oliver's side. For the first time. The Clark's theory works well only if there is human side to defend and I think Davis has lost it. I mean: in "eternal" Davis showed his humanity trying to kill himself conscious of what he is. In this episode he has sterted to care only about himself and chloe... a huge change.
Don't forget that Clark will become Superman only when he'll be able to take the most difficult decisions.

Mickey_Bickey

05-01-2009, 06:44 AM

Oliver's all the way!!!!

No question.

Doomsday is a killing machine. If you don't rid the world of him he will destroy lives in the millions!

amalie

05-01-2009, 06:54 AM

Oliver's all the way!!!!

No question.

Doomsday is a killing machine. If you don't rid the world of him he will destroy lives in the millions!

You didn't think the PZ was a reasonable alternative?

costas22

05-01-2009, 07:01 AM

red_sun1938

05-01-2009, 07:01 AM

Well, if we go purely by canon... He can't kill him until he becomes Superman and reveals his secret to Lois etc, etc, etc....

Then he has full clearance to beat him senseless.

AndiGirl

05-01-2009, 07:19 AM

Alright....dont shoot me....but I kind of see Chloes point! :eek:

What she said to Clark....whether it was a guilt trip or not, was kind of true. The only reason Clark wants to send Davis to the PZ is because he doesnt want blood on his hands.

To me, the PZ would be kind of a cop out. I know....Doomsday, not the easiest guy to kill. But Superman has done it.

But sending Davis there...would ultimately mean Doomy would take over, which...IMO...would be a fate far worse then death for him. :\

I just think Oliver and Clark are both on complete opposite ends of the spectrum. Ollie is overly ready to kill, and Clark cant seem to take the initiative.

badraven

05-01-2009, 07:38 AM

Guys (and girls) Superman does not kill. In present comic book canon I can only think of ONE time Superman has killed anyone. And that was Doomsday and he only did that because he was trying to stop him and that was the only option he had left. I should point out that they fought to the death with both of them dying. (Note- Superman has killed a few other people in the past but I don't think those stories are accepted canon any longer.) Superman always tries to chose the other path. How is it the "hard decision" to just kill someone? Killing is easy. It's harder to find another path. That is the essence of Superman. It's "Truth, Justice and the American Way"...not "Kill'em and let God sort it out." If you want heroes that kill...go watch the Punisher movies. That's my take on the subject.

(OT- this is my fiftieth post! I started late posting but I'm catching up. :))

REebee52

05-01-2009, 07:40 AM

Guys (and girls) Superman does not kill. In present comic book canon I can only think of ONE time Superman has killed anyone. And that was Doomsday and he only did that because he was trying to stop him and that was the only option he had left. I should point out that they fought to the death with both of them dying. (Note- Superman has killed a few other people in the past but I don't think those stories are accepted canon any longer.) Superman always tries to chose the other path. How is it the "hard decision" to just kill someone. Killing is easy. It's harder to find another path. That is the essence of Superman. It's "Truth, Justice and the American Way"...not "Kill'em and let God sort it out." If you want heroes that kill...go watch the Punisher movies. That's my take on the subject.

(OT- this is my fiftieth post! I started late posting but I'm catching up. :))

Right, Superman will never do two things:
1. Execute a villain. Once one is subdued, he would never kill.
2. Seek out to kill someone.

But in the direst of circumstances, he would take a life. He killed Doomsday, and I'd imagine if Darkseid went far enough he'd kill him as well.

Krypto_marcus

05-01-2009, 07:43 AM

The PZ was the ideal solution. It's easy for Oliver to tell Clark that he can kill right? He never had that responsibility in his hands. He has chosen to kill but he has never looked at the other one's eyes as he does it. Clark can't do that.

I agree about the PZ. But of course, Chloe had to ruin everything. But if she didn't we wouldn't see a showdown in the finale;)

Timester

05-01-2009, 07:50 AM

I just think Oliver and Clark are both on complete opposite ends of the spectrum. Ollie is overly ready to kill, and Clark cant seem to take the initiative.

Looking for Davis is not taking the initiative? It was Clark that suspected that Davis was alive in the first place.

AndiGirl

05-01-2009, 08:26 AM

Looking for Davis is not taking the initiative? It was Clark that suspected that Davis was alive in the first place.

Maybe take the intiative was the wrong way to phrase it.
It's more about....being sure of himself. He cant ever seem to find a plan and stick with it. It's almost like he's looking....begging for someone else to come and take the burden from him.

Which, who could blame him....but I agree with Ollie, sooner or later he's going to half to make the tough choices. One of these days...things wont just magically fall into place for him.

amalie

05-01-2009, 08:27 AM

Maybe take the intiative was the wrong way to phrase it.
It's more about....being sure of himself. He cant ever seem to find a plan and stick with it. It's almost like he's looking....begging for someone else to come and take the burden from him.

Which, who could blame him....but I agree with Ollie, sooner or later he's going to half to make the tough choices. One of these days...things wont just magically fall into place for him.

He had a plan and was about to execute it until Chloe decided to show up. That was the only problem with Clark's actions, he should have stuck to his decision.

AndiGirl

05-01-2009, 08:30 AM

He had a plan and was about to execute it until Chloe decided to show up. That was the only problem with Clark's actions, he should have stuck to his decision.

Exactly....he froze. Almost like he really wasnt sure what he was doing was the right choice. Sooner or later he's giong to have to learn to trust his instincts....

amalie

05-01-2009, 08:42 AM

Exactly....he froze. Almost like he really wasnt sure what he was doing was the right choice. Sooner or later he's giong to have to learn to trust his instincts....

I totally agree. He needs to cut the apron strings and he is getting there slowly, unfortunately he has a few relapses now and again.

Bizarrolover

05-01-2009, 08:47 AM

I thought Oliver was too eager to make Clark to fight doomsday. He's not sure it's going to work and he didn't offer Clark his help to defeat him. Ollie knows Doomsday is immortal and if Clark dies in the fight, Doomy can come back even stronger and there will be no Clark to help them. For some reason, every time Ollie says 'kick his ass' the scene when he puts on Lex's ring comes to my mind.

AndiGirl

05-01-2009, 08:48 AM

Yea...i'm willing to cut him some slack this time. Especially since Chloe....who is usually the voice of reason....almost like his conscious, was playing a massive guilt trip on him.

I was 100% behind Chloe until that moment. :\

----- Added 3 Minutes later -----

I thought Oliver was too eager to make Clark to fight doomsday. He's not sure it's going to work and he didn't offer Clark his help to defeat him. Ollie knows Doomsday is immortal and if Clark dies in the fight, Doomy can come back even stronger and there will be no Clark to help them. For some reason, every time Ollie says 'kick his ass' the scene when he puts on Lex's ring comes to my mind.

ITA!
I can almost see that conversation playing out between Ollie and Clark.

Ollie: "Kick his @$$ Clark!"
Clark: "OK!!! I'll do it....but how?"
Ollie: "Uh....I dunno, never thought you would actually
agree...Just....you know...KICK HIS @$$!!!!"
Clark: "but how do you suggest I do that, he's immortal."
Ollie: "KICK.....HIS....@$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Ollie is just a trigger happy little fellow! :lol:
I just dont think it's wise to be throwing out ideas when you have no idea how to back them up. Sure...kick his @$$ sounds simple enough...when you're not the one doing it. :rolleyes:

Davis Bloome

05-01-2009, 09:35 AM

I'm kinda on both sides. Oliver has the right mentality but Clark has the right idea. If Davis could be killed then he should be killed as Oliver said, however I don't think he can be killed, whatever kills him makes him stronger, so locking him up in the PZ was probably a better solution.

Theshadow129x

05-01-2009, 09:36 AM

sending Davis to the phantom zone was an alternative and a very good one but things always get out of it. killing davis is the only solution! period. kill him. ollie is right. he was the voice of reason in this episode.

27CDruid

05-01-2009, 09:38 AM

Clark was right to go for the phantom zone. DD cant hurt anyone and clark doesnt become an executioner. Everybody wins.

The only thing that annoyed me is that Clark is to nervous to state what he wants to. When Ollie was berating him i wanted Clark to stand up for his beliefs to answer back:

"Im not going to kill him. Thats how i roll. You know thats how i roll so stop *****ing about it. If you want him dead so much why dont you throw on your green lycra and run off after doomsday?"

If i was in Clarks position i woulda killed DD. My moral compass is broken though.

LovelyLoisLane

05-01-2009, 09:41 AM

This is a gray area for me.

On one hand it feels like there is a person still inside Doomsday, but at the end . . . he's still Doomsday and he can't just be allowed to run rampant. Certainly not with the VERY tenuous leash that Chloe has on him, which I feel could snap at any time.

Oliver was at least right to tell Chloe that she doesn't have things under control (though I don’t necessarily agree with EVERYTHING, his 'own' mistakes withstanding) because I don't believe she has anything under control either, but is just trying to tell herself that she can save Davis and Clark at the same time. But I think it is a doomed plan. No pun intended.

So Oliver is right in the suggestion that they can't just sit back and do nothing, but Clark WAS going to do something. I felt like Clark had the best idea, unfortunate but the best thing he could do. It is Chloe I disagree with here and I don't like that Clark is second guessing himself, but then Chloe has been his best friends for years, and I don't think the girl in question is a villain, but she IS swallowed up in all the darkness around Doomsday and I fear something terrible is going to happen, but Chloe will realize her ideas were mistakes, sadly, in the thirteenth hour, I think.

I really like Clark for his Superman-ly ideals concerning finding another way besides killing. It has been a selling point for him this season (minus the terrible P/R arc which adversely affected more characters than just Clark as well) and he stresses it frequently. This is an aside from the past where sometimes he'd be pretty violent without thinking twice about it, but Clark as he is now is not prone to violence/murder, not that he was ever a murderer before, more just not as observant of life as he has become now. I love the character this season for this reason as well as many others and I can see him as the symbol of hope in the chaos that Superman in other media has long been. Clark/The Blur is the light to Davis/Doomsday’s darkness.

So, I have to side with Clark here. Oliver had faith in him when he went into action, but then at the end of the episode he was crabbing at him again and I just feel bad for all parties here . . . but more people need to have faith in Clark, because if they listened to him I think we'd be avoiding a lot of bad sh*t that is gonna be going down here soon.

super_j_man

05-01-2009, 09:43 AM

"Im not going to kill him. Thats how i roll. You know thats how i roll so stop *****ing about it. If you want him dead so much why dont you throw on your green lycra and run off after doomsday?"

:rotfl:

That right there would have made my day! :)

Ilovebeinglost

05-01-2009, 10:13 AM

I know that superman can't take a life but come on is he going to stand by while doomsday destroys him and the rest of the world. Put him in a plastic thingy and send him off into space like he has many others.

natbug

05-01-2009, 10:46 AM

I have to side with Clark.

I don't know how much Clark comprehends wrt Davis coming back to life over and over and his immortality, I think he at least has a strong suspicion. So, it bothers me that he doesn't tell Oliver, etc., a different solution is needed because killing Davis doesn't actually help in the long run. Instead of working together, they're banging their heads together.

Also, I think since Clark lost his abilities in the PZ, he may assume a similar thing would happen to Davis. Right now he thinks this is the way to solve the problem.

At this point, I don't even know if there is a rocket on hand, in the SV universe to send Davis into the far reaches of space. Clark can't fly, so how can Davis be strapped to an asteroid? (Sorry if these solutions aren't accurately depicting what may have happened in the comics; I haven't read them. I thought I read these as possible solutions somewhere around here. My mind's a blur after reading a lot of posts!:))

CreamPuffer

05-01-2009, 10:47 AM

He killed before, so what's the problem? He killed that phantom guy in that fight episode. He didn't seem to have any problems with that. Why would Doomsday be any different?

Because Doomsday is also Davis, who is a good person with a good heart. Yes, he has this monstrous dual personality but it's not something he chose or wants. Davis wants to be normal and he doesn't want to kill. There is a big difference between Davis and the pz folks. They choose to kill and destroy while Davis can't help it.

----- Added 5 Minutes later -----

You know, even Comic Book Superman knew he had to kill Doomsday in 1992. He knew that was the only way to stop the monster.

Although we know nothing can kill the monster so putting him in the Phantom Zone is the smartest thing.

Yea, except that the comic book Doomie is a full on monster while the Smallville is a person named Davis, who happens to be a good guy with an unfortunate beast inside. There is a difference between just killing beast/monster and killing a person. The issue in SV is that Clark does not want to kill people not monsters.

----- Added 21 Minutes later -----

While I can understand the reasoning behind both arguments, I'm with Clark. He found a way to deal with the situation without having to take any lives, it's just a shame a certain someone got in the way.

Yes, it's more humane to throw Davis in pz with all those beasts. This way they can kill him over and over and over again, until every little shred of humanity in Davis just disappears. In the mean time, have Davis (you know the human with a heart) undergo years of suffering in a place not to different from hell simply because Clark was to selfish to get blood on his hands. Great idea Clark! That's so much better then putting an end to him. That's so much more humane and that's exactly what makes one a good person let alone a hero.

If DD can not be saved then Clark should try and kill him. Sending Davis to pz at this point is beyond cruel and a far worse choice than death. Now if Davis completely loses his fight with DD and transform into a beast forever then Clark can send him to pz. But while Davis is still conscious that should not be an option.

morrigan01

05-01-2009, 11:27 AM

Doesn't mean Clark won't try. It's mythology.... they can't skip that important piece of Superman history.

Actually they can, at least right now, since the real, full "to-the-death" Superman vs Doomsday fight isn't actually supposed to take place for a few more years yet, after Clark and Lois are engaged and Lois knows Clark's secret.

Oh, and also when Doomsday is a full blown monster and has no "human" side.

All Clark "killing" Doomsday will accomplish is making Doomsday stronger. That's it. Clark had the best plan for the time being.

Krypton935

05-01-2009, 11:30 AM

Theshadow129x

05-01-2009, 11:38 AM

Degobunny

05-01-2009, 11:39 AM

i am beginning to believe clark is a wimp. not that killing is cool, but considering the circumstances. i think ollie needs to converse with jor el and do a johnathan for some krypto powers

Clark is not a wimp, he has morals. Actually considering the episode last night this poll should be Chloe vs. Oliver. Any hew GO CLARK!!!!!!

hellnback

05-01-2009, 11:39 AM

in the comics...doesn't anyone know if superman realized that he had to kill doomsday cuz he no longer had a choice? doomsday had gone a tour of destruction and death by the time it reached metropolis. i never read the issues prior to the big death of superman issue so i don't know if supes realized there was no other choice cuz doomy was an unstoppable killing machine. the only thing i can remember is supes and doomy starting one big fight that left both of them dead. sort of. i need to go and pull out those issues from storage just to read them again.

so did supes realize he had no choice or was he just fighting cuz doomy kept bringing on the fight to him?

baltazor

05-01-2009, 11:46 AM

I always thought Clark lacked the determination he needed to confront DD. But that is not the case. He was determined to solve this problem without killing. I liked that Clark sticks to his principles even at the darkest hour and that is what distinguishes him from other super heroes. If it wasn't for the third party interference Clark would have succeeded. Chloe is way in over her head and she made things worse. But as far as the morality goes Clark is right. Killing is the very last option and things just haven't come to that.

aceofclubs

05-01-2009, 11:48 AM

Ollie! Ollie! Ollie!

I_am_LEX

05-01-2009, 11:51 AM

This is a tough call. Oliver is right, but he doesn't know that Doomsday will just come back. So it won't even matter. Clark was right when he was going to put him in the phantom zone, Chloe made a HUGE mistake. She is clearly too emotionally involved with Davis Bloom, a person that isn't even real, it's camouflage. The phantom zone is perfect for Doomsday, even the phantoms will be scared of him once they realize what he is. Chloe's intentions maybe good for both Clark & Davis, but that doesn't make them right. She doesn't see it. Clark and Oliver are both right & wrong at the same time. Only because they don't truly understand what Doomsday is. Anyone wonder how Blue-K would affect Doomsday?? Or red??

desertcoyote

05-01-2009, 12:07 PM

I'm on Clark's side here. For him, it's so easy to just kill the bad guy and be done with it. Where does one with god-like powers draw the line? I don't think Ollie realizes the position Clark is in. How could Ollie understand the responsibility of that kind of power? It's a slippery slope and the safest thing for Clark to do is not kill unless absolutely neccessary. Killing Davis wasn't needed, but now... it most likely is.

Who

05-01-2009, 12:09 PM

Jeez... Ollie has been blood thirsty since "killing" Lex. He's not much of a hero latley.

hero`s passion

05-01-2009, 12:10 PM

Maybe Ollie is right but I always for Clark:)))))))))))))))))

I_am_LEX

05-01-2009, 12:13 PM

I was I could agree to not kill but I have to go with Ollie. davis has to be stopped before he kills more people and like Chloe said by putting him in the Phantom Zone would be worse than death. Clark needs to just "kick his ass" :D

that all sounds great. but doomsday cannot die. i mean, he can, but he'll just come back stronger. If i had to kill, i mean had to, to protect the people i care about I would. I liked what Lionel told Clark back is "vessel." He told Clark, "The real test of a hero is knowing when the greater good will be served by an evil act. To save the earth, the cost of one life is the price that must be paid." This is very true & something that Clark will have to realize eventually even if he doesn't want to.

cksidekick

05-01-2009, 12:14 PM

Between the moral ordeal Clark is going through now and hints about the direction PS wants to go with the show next season, I'm beggining to believe they want to bring in a lot of "Kingdom Come" influences. Timester suggested in another thread that PS has clearly been using the influence of Alex Ross. I completely agree with that assertion.

Anyone looking for Clark to finaly break down and decide to kill Doomy will be disapointed if this is the case. Clark will never murder anyone.

And dissapointed, will be anyone looking for Clark to take on the role Tess has in mind for him as a Christ figure. Some of the events of his life are similar, but he doesn't think he's here to save our souls with the promise of an eternal kingdom.

MozartRequiem

05-01-2009, 12:17 PM

This is a tricky situation. It's a bit different than all those times Ollie said that killing Lex would save the world, because Lex was in full control of his own evil actions and deserved death more than Davis. Davis isn't in control of the monster inside, but if Chloe indeed can control him, then I don't think it would be the right decision to take his life or throw him in the Phantom Zone. Davis is a person underneath it all (at least at this point), so I think Chloe's the only one making the right decision.

In other cases of killing vs. not killing, I'd say it depends. Not that I condone murder, and especially when a super hero does it (as Bruce says in "The Dark Knight", "that wasn't exactly what I meant when I said I wanted to inspire people"), but in very few and far between instances I can see why it'd be better for the world. Two examples that come to mind: Lex Luthor and the Joker. Both men are in full control of their insane actions and do it because they think they're right. There is no negotiating with either of them, and they continue to escape the system and incarceration. So that means they'll continue to kill and kill and kill until they're defeated. It's the same as killing someone in self-defense. That's not considered "murder" is it? No, the person was about to stab you or shoot you so you had to stop them from doing so. This is the same thing on a much wider scale: Lex and the Joker are about to destroy the world, so they need to be destroyed in the world's defense.

Now this is ultimately not THE best option. I'd firstly condone Superman and Batman trying to lock up Lex and the Joker before more harm is done. But they've tried that in the comics and we see that locking them up does nothing. This is the ONLY reason I'd say that they needed to be killed. If that were not the case, if they could be locked away for good somehow, then that would be the better, more humane, and ultimately more heroic choice to make. I don't believe in the whole "ends justify the means, sacrifices need to be made" mentality unless it's in the extremest of cases. That's why, at this point in "SV", I don't think it'd be right for Clark to kill Davis. It hasn't reached that extreme point where he's beyond control....YET.

All about Clark

05-01-2009, 12:18 PM

Oliver got blood on his hands killing Lex and just wants Clark to have blood on his hands too. I'm with Clark, that the PZ was the right option. Besides, killing Davis is never permanent, so what's the point. It's almost more like a test Oliver is trying to put Clark through.

MozartRequiem

05-01-2009, 12:21 PM

marcella

05-01-2009, 01:16 PM

I'm on Clark's side. DD can't die, so it's better send him somewhere he can't cause any damage

cksidekick

05-01-2009, 01:16 PM

"And dissapointed, will be anyone looking for Clark to take on the role Tess has in mind for him as a Christ figure. Some of the events of his life are similar, but he doesn't think he's here to save our souls with the promise of an eternal kingdom."

Well I don't think that Tess or anyone for that matter believes that Clark will give us the promise of an eternal kingdom. I don't think Tess means it that literally. But metaphorically, Superman certainly does his share of soul saving. That's one of the things I think makes him quite different than most heroes. Even Batman, who tries his best to inspire goodness, is more about literally saving lives and preventing crimes. Something about Superman, though, seems IMO more Christ-like in that he inspires souls to be the best they can be, to the best of their capacity. Metropolis, as it is in "SV", is a crime-ridden, almost Gotham-like place, but when Clark becomes Superman, we see how that changes: Metropolis is a sprawling, beautiful landscape where hope thrives, despite the efforts of the likes of Lex Luthor.

i don't want to get too far off topic and i don't want this to sound like i don't agree with you. all the similarities are there. they have been doing these comparisons a lot lately. tptb clearly want the audience to make the connections, literal or otherwise. And they are mixing it in with all the Doomsday stuff which is Beauty and the Beast.

it all boils down to how Clark sees himself. not the way many in the public (both here in reality and in the DC Universe) see Superman. that's the point of it all. he's NOT a Christ figure. at least in his own mind.

as i said in my first post, i think they are heading down "an Alex Ross road". "Beauty and the Beast" added to the Doomsday story and my speculation for next year, leads me to feel like i'm watching three familiar storys. two of which are directly from DCU. in many ways, i speculate, the last half of this season and season 9 will turn out to be another farmiliar theme to a lot of Superman fans. but this time Lois will live. :)

smithy698

05-01-2009, 01:33 PM

Ollie's right, in my opinion.

Griffin

05-01-2009, 01:35 PM

Nope. Clark never fought Doomsday with the intention of killing him.

----- Added 55 Seconds later -----

Contradiction there.

At first he had no intention to kill Doomsday. At the end of the battle though he knew the only way to stop him was to kill him.

----- Added 2 Minutes later -----

Honestly, I keep reading this and I don't understand. How is Clark weak because he doesn't kill someone? Since when caring about life makes someone weak?

It's weak because a monster slaughters innocent people. The only way to prevent more innocent people from being killed is to kill the monster responsible. Some monsters will NOT stop, you can't bargain with it, you can't kill it with kindness, you can't imprison them. Just like in the real world sometime you have to take a life in order to save one or many. I don't understand why some people can't understand that. That goes for any enemy Superman goes up against.

The problem with Doomsday is that he can't stay dead so "killing" it isn't really an option because he can't really be killed. If there was someway to completey destory Doomsday so he can't come back Clark should not hesitate to go with that option.

Lilah

05-01-2009, 01:45 PM

Actually they can, at least right now, since the real, full "to-the-death" Superman vs Doomsday fight isn't actually supposed to take place for a few more years yet, after Clark and Lois are engaged and Lois knows Clark's secret.

Oh, and also when Doomsday is a full blown monster and has no "human" side.

All Clark "killing" Doomsday will accomplish is making Doomsday stronger. That's it. Clark had the best plan for the time being.

They're not engaged when he dies.... I think that's how she kind of figures out that he's Superman. Smallville's got its own twist on Superman mythology, but producers said they'll be lining it up with the mythology next year... in order to do that superman has to die.

desertcoyote

05-01-2009, 01:49 PM

At first he had no intention to kill Doomsday. At the end of the battle though he knew the only way to stop him was to kill him.

----- Added 2 Minutes later -----

It's weak because a monster slaughters innocent people. The only way to prevent more innocent people from being killed is to kill the monster responsible. Some monsters will NOT stop, you can't bargain with it, you can't kill it with kindness, you can't imprison them. Just like in the real world sometime you have to take a life in order to save one or many. I don't understand why some people can't understand that. That goes for any enemy Superman goes up against.

The problem with Doomsday is that he can't stay dead so "killing" it isn't really an option because he can't really be killed. If there was someway to completey destory Doomsday so he can't come back Clark should not hesitate to go with that option.

But is Doomsday that sort of creature? So far we've seen he can't be killed, but that doesn't mean he can't be imprisoned. Isn't that what the Phantom Zone is designed for? A prison for creatures and beings that are too dangerous to be held in our dimension? Searching for another solution besides killing is not weak.

Timester

05-01-2009, 01:51 PM

It's weak because a monster slaughters innocent people. The only way to prevent more innocent people from being killed is to kill the monster responsible. Some monsters will NOT stop, you can't bargain with it, you can't kill it with kindness, you can't imprison them. Just like in the real world sometime you have to take a life in order to save one or many. I don't understand why some people can't understand that. That goes for any enemy Superman goes up against.

Then only times that Doomsday was stopped was when he was imprisoned. Just like Clark was trying to do. Being weak is doing nothing or falling the thought pardon "Kick his Ass" WITHOUT trying the other options before.

Griffin

05-01-2009, 01:54 PM

But is Doomsday that sort of creature? So far we've seen he can't be killed, but that doesn't mean he can't be imprisoned. Isn't that what the Phantom Zone is designed for? A prison for creatures and beings that are too dangerous to be held in our dimension? Searching for another solution besides killing is not weak.

If Clark sends him to the zone it's a safe bet Doomsday will kill those in the zone. If memory serves me isn't their some girl in the zone that helped Clark escape in a previous season? What's to become of her if Doomsday is put in the zone?

What if Doomsday escapes from the zone? Comic book writers have a nack for writing in some way for the baddy to break free so he can fight the hero again.

Jaderoyale

05-01-2009, 01:56 PM

I'm on Clarks side. Hes right. You shouldn't take someones life without considering the options which is exactly what hes trying to do.

Griffin

05-01-2009, 01:58 PM

Then only times that Doomsday was stopped was when he was imprisoned. Just like Clark was trying to do. Being weak is doing nothing or falling the thought pardon "Kick his Ass" WITHOUT trying the other options before.

How has imprisoning him worked? He's out again and killing so that option doesn't seem to work.

As I said in the case of Doomsday killing doesn't seem to be a viable option either because he can't stay dead. If there is a way to destroy him for good then Clark should do it, they would have to figure out how to do it. If you've tried every option without trying to kill and it still doesn't work you have no other choice. Same goes for us here in the real world.

In the 1994 Hunter/Prey storyline Superman and Doomsday have a rematch. In the end the only way to defeat Doomsday was to take him to a place where nothing can survive. So Superman and Waverider took Doomsday to the end of time.

Of course the writers made Doomsday come back again because an enemy of Superman went into the time stream and retreaved Doomsday before he was destroyed.

----- Added 2 Minutes later -----

I'm on Clarks side. Hes right. You shouldn't take someones life without considering the options which is exactly what hes trying to do.

I was under the impression that they've tried a variety of options and they did not work? Which is why Oliver told Clark to "kick his ass."

desertcoyote

05-01-2009, 02:20 PM

If Clark sends him to the zone it's a safe bet Doomsday will kill those in the zone. If memory serves me isn't their some girl in the zone that helped Clark escape in a previous season? What's to become of her if Doomsday is put in the zone?

What if Doomsday escapes from the zone? Comic book writers have a nack for writing in some way for the baddy to break free so he can fight the hero again.

Raya was killed by Baern. The only other gal I know of that was in the Phantom Zone was Kara and she got out when Lois and Clark were trapped there.

So if somehow Doomsday escapes the Phantom Zone THEN Clark will probably see that there's no other choice. Right now he has no reason to suspect that Doomsday will be able to escape w/o some outside influence affecting Clark. I mean, the PZ has held Zod and the other phantoms since their recapture after Clark let them out unintentionally.

Exedore

05-01-2009, 02:23 PM

wafflles87

05-01-2009, 02:29 PM

I was on Ollie's side, up until Clark came up with the PZ idea, then I switched to Clark.

Timester

05-01-2009, 02:33 PM

wafflles87

05-01-2009, 02:35 PM

Once again I must raise the question: did they ever tell us in SV exactly how death works in the Phantom Zone? Plus to what extent, if any, would DD have his abilities in there? These are questions that should have been dealt with in the show. Instead we get crappy soap opera.

Who, Raya? She got out and died in the same episode (the same episode she got out, she died, not the same episode as Clark's escape)

Timester

05-01-2009, 02:35 PM

How has imprisoning him worked? He's out again and killing so that option doesn't seem to work.

The asteroid option worked. He got free because of Superman Cyborg. In the middle of Apokolips. The end of time solution also worked.

melissan02

05-01-2009, 02:48 PM

I was on Ollie's side, up until Clark came up with the PZ idea, then I switched to Clark.

I'm still on Ollie's side. He's Oliver Queen...the Green Arrow, I fully expect him to want Clark to kill Davis! It would be OOC for Ollie to feel differently. Doesn't mean I agree w/ him, but Ollie as we know is a man of action...misinformed at times, but he wants to get things done!
I'm like you though, I was on Clark's side w/ the whole PZ idea. And Clark had things under control, IMO, until Chloe stepped in and stopped him!

ReevesSuperman

05-01-2009, 02:52 PM

Sending Doomsday to the Phantom Zone was good enough for the Justice League Unlimited Superman and its good enough for me. Yet, I do agree with Ollie, Doomsday/Davis are killers. Davis pleads the fifth on this, but he constantly hides the bodies and threatens people not to make him angery. Davis is a killer and no amount of Chloe nonsense is going to change that. Plus, Clark didn't tell Ollie that he was just going to shove him in the Phantom Zone, Ollie thought he was going to bring him to justice same how. Clark also needs to get off the high horse here. When push comes to shove he is going to have kill Davis unless the writers make some cop-out ending which won't surprise me.

I also take issue with this Superman doesn't kill law. Sups did kill Zod and the rest of the crimenals in Superman II. He also killed them with Kryptonite in the comics originally, but they were brought back to life in numerous re-boots. Superman did kill Doomsday regardless of what people interrupt in the comics and what happened after he threw that punch. He was going for the kill and we all knew it. Doomsday being alive afterwards doesn't change the fact that Superman was going for the kill. I am sure if you go back into the older days of comics he will have instances of him killing people. Heck, even Bruce dropped his no gun, no kill rule when it came to Darkside in Final Crisis. I think Sups even killed a version of himself at the end of Final Crisis. I know people say that Sups did the killing and not Clark and there is problem number one with this show.

Clark is what in the mid-twenties on the show and he still won't grow up or make decisions on his own. Superman is a man, Clark is still a teenager who doesn't want to make the hard decisions. This show had a great season with Clark going around capturing the Phantoms that should have made him a man instead he reverts back to sick puppy dog at the sight of Lana and now Chloe. 9 years for the money shot of him in the suit, its been two years to long. I understand early on no flight, no tights, but after the sixth season that law was just as sound as Just say No to drugs. I also have a problem with Doomsday going to kill Clark, he kills Superman not some farmboy who has decision making problems. That is why Doomsday as soon as a giant threat, because he killed Superman not Clark Kent. I appericate them making Doomsday look great on the show, but this storyline needed to be done after he got the suit which God willing will happen next year.

Timester

05-01-2009, 02:59 PM

Heck, even Bruce dropped his no gun, no kill rule when it came to Darkside in Final Crisis.

Grant Morrison himself said that Bruce shot Darkseid's shoulder on purpose.

morrigan01

05-01-2009, 03:26 PM

They're not engaged when he dies.... I think that's how she kind of figures out that he's Superman. Smallville's got its own twist on Superman mythology, but producers said they'll be lining it up with the mythology next year... in order to do that superman has to die.

No, you're thinking of the movie "Superman: Doomsday." In the Comic Book The Death of Superman, which was the first original telling of the story, Lois and Clark were engaged to be married, and Lois knew Clark's secret.

In fact, Doomsday and the Death of Superman storyline was specifically created at the time to delay the wedding of Lois and Clark, to wait for the premier of the TV show Lois & Clark: TNAOS

PS have already said that they're doing things so that everything in SV will start to match up with the DC Universe, which means the comics specifically. And, as I said, in the original Death of Superman story, Lois knew the secret and she and Clark were engaged to be married. So having Clark not kill Doomsday right now would not be wrong or incorrect.

obsessedwithsv

05-01-2009, 03:28 PM

Tbh, Ollie's starting to annoy me with how much he's trying to pressurize Clark into doing something he's obviously very much against. I'm on Clark's side all the way! Send Doomy to the PZ.

Kid Collins

05-01-2009, 05:47 PM

I have to say I'm with Oliver in this one.

Yeah, Clark doesn't want to kill Davis but he doesn't think twice about tossing this dude for the rest of his life in the Phantom Zone.

It would be less cruel if he just killed Davis rather than subject him to that kind of life he would have in there.

AND he would save millions of lives.

herolee10

05-01-2009, 06:14 PM

I'd still say Clark's right. Though the PZ is like a eternal hell, Davis, the human disguise of Doomsday is mean to perish at some point like Brainiac said, so really it's like sending a dying person to the PZ, the only think left in the PZ would be Doomsday.

Exedore

05-01-2009, 06:28 PM

Who, Raya? She got out and died in the same episode (the same episode she got out, she died, not the same episode as Clark's escape)

Huh? What does Raya have to do with what I said? :confused: I was talking about sending DD to the PZ. That automatically brings up the questions of how death works in the PZ and to what extent, if any, DD/Davis would have his abilities there. These are the issues this episode should have dealt (among other things). Instead, we got....Davis/Chloe crappy soap opera. :rolleyes:

yes2destiny

05-01-2009, 06:46 PM

I'm on Clark's s simply because Superman's whole deal is not taking a human life, which is just fair since he is like a god, and it would be easy for him to take a life. However, Doomsday is NOT human. Davis is NOT human, so Clark needs to kiss his a** and kill that monster. He had no problem killing Braniac because he's a machine, so he needs to get it into this head that Davis is not human, either.

Lilah

05-01-2009, 09:40 PM

No, you're thinking of the movie "Superman: Doomsday." In the Comic Book The Death of Superman, which was the first original telling of the story, Lois and Clark were engaged to be married, and Lois knew Clark's secret.

In fact, Doomsday and the Death of Superman storyline was specifically created at the time to delay the wedding of Lois and Clark, to wait for the premier of the TV show Lois & Clark: TNAOS

PS have already said that they're doing things so that everything in SV will start to match up with the DC Universe, which means the comics specifically. And, as I said, in the original Death of Superman story, Lois knew the secret and she and Clark were engaged to be married. So having Clark not kill Doomsday right now would not be wrong or incorrect.

You're right. I'm sorry, I was confusing the two.... Personally, I think that Clark will end up dying in s9 for some reason... it looks like that's the direction they're heading toward. But if that's the plan then they need to bring Clois together as a couple first and Lois needs to learn his secret.

Tatiana

05-02-2009, 10:17 AM

definitely Clark's side, if not he wouldn't be Superman, he has no right to make the decision of killing someone or something just because he can. If it were for that we would all go killing whoever we think is evil and is a parasite of society. At least he found another way to get rid of him, like sending him to the zone, which is sending him to jail like we do in society, I don't believe in death penalty which is why I agree with Clark, to me it is the same thing

----- Added 2 Minutes later -----

Honestly, I keep reading this and I don't understand. How is Clark weak because he doesn't kill someone? Since when caring about life makes someone weak?

I agree, this doesn't make Clark weak, it makes him Superman, he never makes the decision of killing someone just cuz he can, sometimes he ends up doing it but he always tries to find another way, which in this case was sending Doomsday to the zone

----- Added 5 Minutes later -----

He killed before, so what's the problem? He killed that phantom guy in that fight episode. He didn't seem to have any problems with that. Why would Doomsday be any different?

Not true, he did kill him but he didn't intent to and he has grown up a lot since then, he was mad there after his dad had died, but his intention wasn't to kill him and when he did, HE DID feel very guilty, don't you remember the conversation with his mother Martha?

----- Added 8 Minutes later -----

Right, but he realized he couldn't pull any punches, and if it was going to kill Doomsday it had to happen.

which is what he'll do in Doomsday probably, but that is not his first choice if he can find another one, which is what he did in beast as true Superman would

Autumn

05-02-2009, 10:37 AM

I'm on Clark's side. Oliver has stopped acting like a hero.

quinny06

05-02-2009, 12:48 PM

I can't believe anyone is even debating this. Clark CANNOT kill anything. Braniac was a computer, Doomsday is flesh.

Don't mean to offened anyone, but if you want Clark to kill something, then I don't think you understand Superman at all.

In the comic fight, Superman was never trying to kill Doomsday, he was just punching and punching, trying to keep him down.

Clark/Superman can't kill anything. Nothing else to it. No 'if's and no 'but's. Simple as that. He finds another way or he dies trying. That's Superman.

bigblueplanet

05-02-2009, 12:55 PM

quinny06

05-02-2009, 01:00 PM

If you've tried every option without trying to kill and it still doesn't work you have no other choice. Same goes for us here in the real world.

Speak for yourself. I'll always die before I kill someone. I think its easy for people to say that, but whether they would actually go through with it is a different matter.

Marissa

05-02-2009, 01:08 PM

Oliver.

Charissa70

05-02-2009, 03:07 PM

oliver is right-sacrifice one for the safety of many can be applied but actually in the case of doomsday-he has no good qualities to him. He is just a killing machine. originally he killed the bad, but now, anyone. And in fact, killing the bad was wrong too. what if those people could be turned around? What ifsome had good qualities within? Clark will not kill Doomsday, so, what does he want to do with him? Letting him live, no matter where, is just letting the killing continue. Lois ended up in the Phantom Zone by mistake-so others, if the story was true, could too. So it is okay for him to kill who ever, what ever in the zone? Clark needs to grow and realize that some people/things have no redeeming qualities and are better off gone then among us. (I guess the writers were extremely against the death penalty, BUT what would be the sense of having a jeffrey damler (?) alive if he had super strength ? or Bernie Geotz (son of sam) -what if he escaped from prison by melting bars or by sliding through them then was able to fly away? I think people would have 2nd thoughts of the death penalty if they thought these killers would be able to escape easily and had super powers.) It is one think being nobel, another being STUPID AND RISKY OTHERS LIVES - like Chloe

borednow

05-02-2009, 04:29 PM

I'm glade Clark has the morals he does, it matches what he should be

however personally I'm with Ollie.

L Nasty388

05-02-2009, 07:58 PM

did it ever occur to anyone that maybe, like other living kryptonian beings, the phantom zone wud suppress his powers? cuz doesnt his powers also come from the yellow sun if hes kryptonian? im not sure about this since in the comics he was created by a scientist of a different race on acient krypton before what we know as kryptonians even existed...

Violet-Shadow

05-02-2009, 08:08 PM

Although I don't always like Oliver's verbal bashing of Clark, I think he is the correct one in this argument. "Davis" is a camouflage of Doomsday...and "Davis" is the only thing holding Clark back from what he needs to do. However, I think/hope that Clark will do what's necessary, without having to be leactured by Oliver or any other character, when "Davis" completely disappears and all that is left is his true self: Doomsday.

----- Added 3 Minutes later -----

I can't believe anyone is even debating this. Clark CANNOT kill anything. Braniac was a computer, Doomsday is flesh.

Don't mean to offened anyone, but if you want Clark to kill something, then I don't think you understand Superman at all.

In the comic fight, Superman was never trying to kill Doomsday, he was just punching and punching, trying to keep him down.

Clark/Superman can't kill anything. Nothing else to it. No 'if's and no 'but's. Simple as that. He finds another way or he dies trying. That's Superman.

That's true. I think my dislike for "Davis" clouds my judgement. Plus, I had no idea that Clark didn't actually kill DD in the comics. If that's true, then he shouldn't kill DD because I believe in sticking as close to mythos as possible (they have deviated so much from this and it makes me angry...) So, in light of your argument, I change my vote, even though I sided with Oliver for the poll.

Clark should just send that killing maching to the PZ, without Chloe to ruin it this time...

Heilige

05-02-2009, 08:11 PM

Speak for yourself. I'll always die before I kill someone. I think its easy for people to say that, but whether they would actually go through with it is a different matter.

[MOD EDIT]

[MOD EDIT]

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----

ITA.

Clark Kent doesn’t kill. He always finds another way.
This is an ESSENTIAL tenet at the core of Superman.

What if there isn't another way? We don't live in utopia.

Violet-Shadow

05-02-2009, 08:15 PM

[MOD EDIT]

[MOD EDIT]

What if there isn't another way? We don't live in utopia.

I think what they're trying to say is that Superman doesn't kill. It's been a part of his story for years.

On a personal level, I see your argument and IA with the point you are trying to make with your questions. WWII is the ultimate example: we had to stop Hitler and the Nazis.

However, Superman is Superman, a created superhero who doesn't kill.

SnowBird

05-02-2009, 09:14 PM

I don't think Oliver and Clark has ever agreed on anything...Clark met Green Arrow while he was stealing which Clark didn't agree with. Ollie has been on Clark's back to do more for the world without knowing all of Clark's heroics. Now, Ollie wants Clark to kill and Clark doesn't believe in murder.

I think Davis scared the crap out of Oliver and now he wants Clark to kill him because he is afraid Davis/DD will come after him again. Ollie is using the excuse that he wants to protect the world but really he is the one that wants to be protected. I'm looking forward to when Clark finds out that Ollie killed Lex and what Clark will say to him.

Clark had a good plan to send Davis/DD to the Phantom Zone but since that plan was ruined by Chloe, the consequences of her actions will be the death of others unknown at this time.

magic

05-02-2009, 09:40 PM

what's the big deal it's not like Clark hasn't killed before
to name a few: Zod, Baern, Jed McNelly, Gloria, Titan, Bizarro, Brainiac

besides the PZ is far worse than death

MetroGirl06

05-02-2009, 10:03 PM

Going with Oliver. If Clark cares about lives being saved, sometimes the only way to save lives is to destroy the cause of death.

quinny06

05-03-2009, 06:35 AM

[MOD EDIT]

Yes, I am a pacifist. Does that answer your WW2 question?

And lets not bring anything about the current war or politics into this, I believe that's against this site's rules anyway.

bigblueplanet

05-03-2009, 06:38 AM

What if there isn't another way? We don't live in utopia.

No, we (as in you, me, anyone else who lives in the real world) do not live in utopia.
But Clark Kent does. So does all other SV characters, imo.

I know it’s your prerogative to mix fiction and the real world, but I don’t. There’s a reason why I read Superman comics and not 'The Punisher' or any other comic heroes who are willing to kill. One of the many reasons why I love Superman is because he doesn’t take lives even though it’s SO EASY for him to do so, being one of the most powerful heroes in the world. (i.e. in HIS world, not our real world, mind you.)

We are talking about the guy who shoots fire from his eyes and who can run at near light speed here. So, if I can believe this guy can do all this things, then yes, I can also believe there’s ALWAYS another way for him besides killing. You can’t take this aspect away from him because this is one of the core elements of Superman. That’s why he is so inspiring. Superman is a creature of IDEALISM, not realism. YMMV

.

SacredK

05-03-2009, 06:40 AM

Clark's. Thou shalt not kill. That's all I need to know.

dcmarriott

05-04-2009, 09:01 AM

I think Clark’s position is completely justified, and in accordance with his upbringing in the Kent household. Furthermore, having a code of honour makes Clark a more interesting character, and gives the stories additional depth. Superman is, after all, a person who can do just about anything he wants. To make him an amoral vigilante would mean that the stories about him would be reduced to descriptions of him hunting down and killing his enemies. It makes it more interesting if he not only has to find his enemies, but also has to figure out how to capture them without killing them and bring them to some fitting form of justice.

It was significant in this episode that Clark had already decided that Doomsday should be sent to the Phantom Zone. He had thought beyond the confrontation itself, and considered what would be an appropriate way to deal with Doomsday, aside from simply killing him outright.

I had more trouble with Chloe’s position in this episode. How can she advocate killing Davis in one episode, but then be unwilling to see him sent to the Phantom Zone. Sure, the Phantom Zone is a hellish place, but it is one that is uniquely suited to Doomsday. Chloe can’t be so naïve as to believe that Davis can continue to live in our world, without killing more people, can she? And does she think that he doesn’t need to be brought to justice for the crimes that he’s already committed?

Welling_is_pretty

05-04-2009, 11:41 AM

I voted for Clark. I don't believe Superman should kill. Kal-El has always tried to find another way.

Also, if he really wants to punish Doomsday/Davis then sending to the Phantom Zone would be much crueler. There are so many things out there so much more worse than death. Being trapped in an eternal hell away from the person you love ranks right up there.

Course that's my personal opinion.

ClLaLeChFAN01

05-04-2009, 03:54 PM

I agree with oliver but I support clark does that make sense? :lol:

It does!!! I agree!!!

LuthorKent90

05-04-2009, 03:58 PM

MountainSniper

05-05-2009, 01:14 AM

Hi Aalexander III,

Oliver: Kill Davis, save mankind

Oliver makes perfect sense to me.

One life whether Davis or anyone else is not worth risking the existence of mankind.

Clark: Avoid to kill in any situations

Clark’s no killing premise makes him look like a moron when he sounds off such a silly illogical principle in situations that risk the existence of all life on earth.

Clark’s apathy and refusal to step up and take action time and time again on Smallville has resulted in the death of dozens, hundreds, thousands, millions of innocent lives.

Which side are u on?? For me, Oliver reminds me of Lex :D. Clark on the other hand, will not kill an ant because he's weak! :p

The fact is Clark has killed time and time again on Smallville or has had other people and/or sentient beings kill for him.

The Clark Kent "no killing" premise on Smallville is a myth and one of the most poorly handed aspects of the show.

Cheers, Mountain Sniper

Hi kg,

Clark. Davis dosen't want to be this monster - he has no choice. He deserves to live.

Whether Davis deserves or doesn’t deserve to live doesn’t have anything to do with it.

What at stake is the existence of not just mankind but all life on Earth.

Davis himself has manned up and with Chloe’s help tried to slot himself but due to circumstance failed.

Clark the BDA is true to form gambling with the fate of mankind and as usual luck, fate and circumstance (not Clark) will save mankind but not with out the death of innocents which never seems to occur to Smallville’s Clark Kent.

Cheers Mountain Sniper

Hi amalie,

While I can understand the reasoning behind both arguments, I'm with Clark. He found a way to deal with the situation without having to take any lives, it's just a shame a certain someone got in the way.

What about all the people/sentient beings in the Phantom Zone?

Doomsday would kill every single one of them.

Ok, they are criminals but we are not sure they have committed crimes that deserve the punishment of being the ripped limb from limb by the ultimate killing machine.

Also to further complicate the situation there might be innocents in the Phantom Zone like there were in the past like Raya, Kara, Clark etc. Putting Doomsday in there would mean the death of any innocents unlucky enough to be trapped in the Phantom Zone.

Obviously I am on the side of killing Doomsday to remove the risk to mankind but if Clark can’t find a way to kill Doomsday then I would accept sending him to the Phantom Zone and would have to live with resultant the loss of life.

Innocent or criminal losing everyone in the Phantom Zone is an acceptable alternative to losing everyone on earth.

But killing him is still the best option. As usual there will be a lot of deaths in the future due to Clark’s typical illogical, self righteous, self indulgent inability to make the tough call.

Cheers Mountain Sniper

Hi quinny06,

Speak for yourself. I'll always die before I kill someone. I think its easy for people to say that, but whether they would actually go through with it is a different matter.

I will speak for myself when I say I am glad my buddies at my back in the land of bad things don’t think the way you do.

If it is just your life at stake then you can make that choice.

But in the Smallville universe many innocents have died because Clark is too self righteous and apathetic to man up and make the tough call.

If it was just Clark’s life on the line or just your own life on the line then Clark/you can do whatever you want but when it is the fate of mankind you do what is required to do the business and that includes violence of action.

Cheers Mountain Sniper

Hi Sacred K, bigblueplanet & quinny06,

Clark's. Thou shalt not kill. That's all I need to know.

Clark Kent doesn’t kill. He always finds another way.
This is an ESSENTIAL tenet at the core of Superman.

Clark/Superman can't kill anything. Nothing else to it. No 'if's and no 'but's. Simple as that. He finds another way or he dies trying. That's Superman.

Yea right, Clark’s body count on Smallville is pretty toasty.

In the Smallville universe time and time again Clark kills meteor freaks, zoners, phantoms or the politically correct writers have other characters stand in for Clark to do the killing for him as some kind of “Clark Kent get out of jail free” killing card.

In the pilot episode Clark dropped a ton of metal on bug boy and later in the first season “kills?” Sean Kelvin in the episode Cool by throwing him into the lake which freezes.

Then in episode Gone Clark uses his heat vision to kill Trent the kid with the metal blades for arms while at the same time Lois helps in the killing by shooting Trent with the electrocution gun.

Clark also used his heat vision to kill Lois’s childhood friend Wes.

In episode Combat Clark kills sentient being Titan in a direct one on one, hand to hand fight.

And no even if your mommy says so it still counts as killing when you directly seek out and confront your enemy directly one on one with violence of action in a super powered hand to hand fight. In real life in a court of law just try to get away with the “it was an accident” defense in such a situation and you are in for a rude surprise and lots of years in prison.

Clark kills the sentient being Gloria in episode Wither when once again using heat vision he makes a sprinkler burst over the lights in the greenhouse and thus electrocuting Gloria and causing her to vaporize.

An example of the “get out of jail free card” for Clark killing is the Martian Manhunter twice killing sentient beings ie Aliens/Zoners to save Clark’s life.

Then in another "get out of jail free card" for Clark, Lana had to kill Bizzaro in order to save Clark.

In fact Lana even killed one of Morgan Edge’s henchmen in the barn by kicking him onto a pitchfork in order to save Jonathan and Martha Kent.

Chloe has killed on the show when she shoots Gabriel in the missile silo in an attempt to stop the launch of the nuclear missile and thus save Smallville.

There is no rhyme or reason to the so called “Clark doesn’t kill” logic on Smallville except the bodies keep pilling up.

Cheers Mountain Sniper

Hi Timester,

Seriously, people, we are watching a Superman show. The MAIN message of Superman was always "find a third way".

And how did that work out for the many innocents that have been killed on Smallville due to Clark’s refusal to do what was required ie kill?

How many times has mankind been at the brink on Smallville due to Clark’s refusal to take violence of action to stop a threat in it’s tracks?

Instead it is only by luck, circumstance and fate that mankind was saved but that won’t bring back the innocents that were killed due to Clark’s apathy.

BTW the original Superman in the dailies killed when it was required. It is only after the original creators sold Superman in the early 40s that some moronic editor at the new owners decided that Superman shouldn’t kill.

Honestly, I keep reading this and I don't understand. How is Clark weak because he doesn't kill someone? Since when caring about life makes someone weak?

Strawman argument alert!

Since when does your decision to not take action and the result is the death of innocents mean you care about life?

Do soldiers using violence of action to defend innocents not care about life?

Do police protecting their community by violence of action not care about life?

Does a citizen defending his family by violence of action not care about life?

All the best,

Cheers Mountain Sniper

Imzadia

05-05-2009, 01:40 AM

I'm on Clark's side. However, I understand Oliver's point of view, too. It's a lot more complicated than just Kill him, or Not Kill him. Yes, Doomsday IS a threat to all life on Earth, BUT... he Can't or Shouldn't be killed because he doesn't STAY DEAD, rather he comes back Stronger. If killing Doomsday was possible, then Yes, kill him quickly and mercifully. Unfortunately, that's not the case with Doomy. Clark had made the Right Decision to send Davis to the PZ, IMO. Although Oliver said he was the one to bury Davis and now knows that according to Clark, he clawed his way out of the grave, he's ignoring that result. Trying to 'kill' him won't be successful. Many will Die in that process unneccessarily. Unless Rokk/Cosmic Boy is coming from the future with a solution for stopping Doomsday, the BEST OPTION is sending DD to the Phantom Zone, which is a Cosmic Interdimensional Penal Colony... Perfect solution.

Another thing; I'm appalled that so many of you Crave Violence and wish to see some type of viscious retaliation against Doomsday. Yes, we may see some type of battle between him and Clark, who is the only person capable of giving Doomsday any Physical competition, but trying to find another way to punish someone other than Killing them, ISN'T WEAK; IMO, It's RESPECT for ALL life. Some circumstances that result in the death of someone are unavoidable sometimes, but to contemplate taking another's life for the thrill of the kill is barbaric. Our modern intelligence is supposed to elevate us above those primitive instincts, unless it's in the instance of Self-Preservation. If all other avenues of reasoning have been explored without finding a solution, only then is 'killing' the final solution.

Tompouce

05-05-2009, 05:54 AM

ITA with you, Madelyne

SGuthrie27

05-05-2009, 08:12 PM

99% of the time, I would stand with Clark on this issue. There ARE other ways of dealing with problems than killing, and Clark came up with a good one with the Phantom Zone plan, even though it didn't work out. The only situations in which I think that killing a villain could be justified is if innocent civilians were put into immediate and definitive danger, and the only option you had left was to take the villain out to avoid them being killed right then and there. Aside from that, I'm on Clark's side all the way!

--SGuthrie ><>' :)--

Bizarrolover

05-05-2009, 08:38 PM

I'm on both. :p
I understand Clark choosing to place Doomvis in the phantom zone before he would consider killing him. (which should have been done)

But I also understand Oliver, he wants to get rid of it without the risk of it returning.

The problem I have with Oliver's reasoning is that he doesn't know what he's talking about. he assumes Clark can kill Doomy but he's not sure he will and he's sending Clark to fight a battle he's going to loose. Doomsday can't be killed. Clark's solution was the right one, but someone unplugged the bloody portal.

MountainSniper

05-06-2009, 01:13 AM

Hi Bizarrolover,

The problem I have with Oliver's reasoning is that he doesn't know what he's talking about. he assumes Clark can kill Doomy but he's not sure he will and he's sending Clark to fight a battle he's going to loose. Doomsday can't be killed. Clark's solution was the right one, but someone unplugged the bloody portal.

I agree with your statement regarding Oliver’s reasoning i.e. Oliver is assuming that Clark can kill Doomsday but would expand it to include Clark and Chloe making their own assumptions about Doomsday.

The simple truth is no one has any accurate definitive Intel on Doomsday including Davis himself.

Davis and Chloe assumed that Doomsday could be killed by Kryptonite since most things Kryptonian like Clark’s space ship etc are negatively affected by Kryptionite but that turned out to be wishful thinking.

Davis and Chloe assume that Chloe being around Davis will keep Doomsday under control but that theory appears to be breaking down.

No one knows if Doomsday is immortal or just really hard to kill?

In the Smallville universe maybe Clark can kill Doomsday or maybe like the comics the only one that can kill Doomsday is a fully mature, trained, experienced and completely tuned up Superman?

The Phantom zone could take away Doomsday’s powers leaving behind just Davis or maybe the Phantom zone like Kryptonite would strengthen Doomsday’s powers or strip away his only moral/logical brake Davis.

If the Phantom Zone has the same affect on Doomsday as Kryptonite did then Clark’s idea of putting Doomsday in the Phantom Zone is really going to end in tears for everyone involved.

The simple fact is with no accurate confirmed Intel on Doomsday Clark, Oliver and Chloe are reduced to making educated guesses about what will or won’t work in stopping Doomsday.

For me, Oliver’s idea of killing Doomsday is 100% dead on correct and Clark is being his usual politically correct BDA by not going with that option. So kill Doomsday if at all possible. If that fails then go for Plan B which is send Doomsday to the Phantom zone and write off the lives of everyone innocent or guilty currently in the Phantom zone and hope for the best when it comes to the Phantom Zone holding Doomsday.

The best bet for Clark is to load up Oliver and Chloe and take everyone to the fortress and ask Jor-el what the heck is the Intel on Doomsday. Whatever his super intelligent space daddy tells him to do Clark being the BDA should listen and execute Jor-el’s plan to the letter.

And that is just my two dirhams worth.

Cheers Mountain Sniper

Hi SGuthrie27,

The only situations in which I think that killing a villain could be justified is if innocent civilians were put into immediate and definitive danger, and the only option you had left was to take the villain out to avoid them being killed right then and there. Aside from that, I'm on Clark's side all the way!

I understand your sentiments and for the most part in, for example, standard hostage situations etc they are true. I am not suggesting over reaction by just starting to toss lead around when there is a reasonable chance that surrender, trading for hostages etc is still in play.

However Doomsday is not a standard situation where the parameters are understood and there is usually reasonable Intel available.

In the Smallville universe Doomsday is the ultimate killing machine and the stakes are the existence of mankind so it is not the time wait for any immediate or definitive danger.

The danger of Doomsday is the ultimate danger and the stakes are everything on the planet so if you have the shot you take the shot and you make sure it’s a main body mass kill shot.

The problem in Smallville is not whether to take to shot just that due to sketchy Intel none knows what exactly would be a kill shot.

Clark’s best plan is to go to Jor-el for Intel and do whatever freaking Jor-el tells him. If Jor-el knows how to take Doomsday out then Clark should immediately and without any silly politically correct whining slot Doomsday.

Cheers Mountain Sniper

magic

05-06-2009, 01:41 AM

Clark’s best plan is to go to Jor-el for Intel and do whatever freaking Jor-el tells him. If Jor-el knows how to take Doomsday out then Clark should immediately and without any silly politically correct whining slot Doomsday.
when has Clark ever listened to Jor-El?
the way the whole thing went down is so stupid
Jor-El: he's the ultimate destroyer, virtually unstoppable
Clark: ok tnx, I don't care how powerful he is or how to destroy him I'll take care of him myself cya

great plan Clark... as usual

MountainSniper

05-06-2009, 07:22 AM

Hi Magic,

when has Clark ever listened to Jor-El?

Just about never and the usual result is a close call for the human race and the death of a whole bunch of innocents.

the way the whole thing went down is so stupid
Jor-El: he's the ultimate destroyer, virtually unstoppable
Clark: ok tnx, I don't care how powerful he is or how to destroy him I'll take care of him myself cya
great plan Clark... as usual

Just to clarify I really wasn't expecting Clark to check in with let alone listen to the advice/plan of his super intellegent space daddy. I have been watching the show too long to expect to see pigs fly let alone Clark Kent or to see him engage his brain.

It is very much like the time Clark tried to immediately send the Legion back to the future just after they saved his life from axe-man since he didn't think he needed their help & special powers to deal with Braniac but instead was going to wing it on his own while rolling the dice on the existance of the entire human race.

Go with Clark's plan in any situation and you really are counting on the kid in the corner wearing the dunce cap to win the Nobel prize.

Cheers Mountain Sniper

Mad Madam Mimm

05-06-2009, 01:35 PM

I'm on Clark's side. He believes that life is sacred and that all life should be protected and respected. I down with that. I think Chloe is fooling herself to think that she will always be able to hold enough sway with Davis that it will keep DD at bay...

I support Clark's view point and absolutely POSITIVELY do not think he is weak for following his beliefs. If anything, weakness can be found in taking the easy way out by killing. It takes tremendous strength and belief in himself to stand tall in the face of so many of his most-respected friends telling him to kill.

Davis Bloome

05-06-2009, 05:15 PM

It's not sign of weakness, but it's a bit naive in my opinion, it's almost wishing too much, cause you can't save everybody and this series has been keeping proving that on and on and on. It's honourable that Clark tries to keep himself to that code, but it's inevitable that with this kind of thinking somebody is gonna get hurt or worse.

magic

05-06-2009, 08:16 PM

it's not a bit naive it's VERY naive
and being naive IS a weakness

you gotta see the world as it is, gray

borednow

05-06-2009, 11:48 PM

I agree with oliver but I support clark does that make sense? :lol:

Yes it does, I'm right there with you.

MountainSniper

05-07-2009, 02:05 AM

Hi Mad Madam Mimm,

I'm on Clark's side. He believes that life is sacred and that all life should be protected and respected. I down with that.

Does this "life is sacred" idea include the lives of the dozens, hundreds, thousands, millions of innocents that end up dead because Clark refuses to listen to informed opinion such as Jor-el and thus doesn’t decisively respond to threats like Zod, Brainiac, Doomsday that threaten the existence of the entire human race?

I think Chloe is fooling herself to think that she will always be able to hold enough sway with Davis that it will keep DD at bay...

I agree which is why they should kill Doomsday ASAP and if they can’t kill him try to transmit him to the Phantom Zone and live with the reality that he will kill everyone, criminal or innocent, in the Phantom Zone.

I support Clark's view point and absolutely POSITIVELY do not think he is weak for following his beliefs.

What about the reality of Clark’s beliefs risking the entire human race and/or a whole lot of innocents being killed?

If anything, weakness can be found in taking the easy way out by killing.

What is easy about killing Doomsday?

It takes tremendous strength and belief in himself to stand tall in the face of so many of his most-respected friends telling him to kill.

Strength and Belief????? How does that work when the outcome is living with the reality that your so called “beliefs” resulted in the death of innocents and risked the existence of life on Earth?

Stupidity, self righteous, delusional etc come to mind before “strength”.

Cheers, Mountain Sniper

Hi Davis Bloome,

It's not sign of weakness, but it's a bit naive in my opinion, .

This is a difference between being naïve and being stupid/delusional/self righteous moron etc.

Clark knows how dangerous Doomsday is and still won't take decisive violence of action to neutralize the threat to all life on earth. Instead he is rolling the dice on the existence of mankind. That is not naïve it is being a self righteous moron.

it's almost wishing too much, cause you can't save everybody and this series has been keeping proving that on and on and on.

Wrong. If Clark kills Doomsday then he will have saved everyone one Earth.

If Clark can’t find a way to kill him and goes to Plan B and sends Doomsday to the Phantom Zone then Clark’s actions will result in the death of everyone in the Phantom Zone and as long as the Phantom Zone can hold Doomsday will save everyone on Earth.

It's honourable that Clark tries to keep himself to that code, but it's inevitable that with this kind of thinking somebody is gonna get hurt or worse.

It is not honorable for Clark to roll the dice on the existence of mankind or to accept the death of innocents that could have been saved if he just manned up and slotted Zod, Braniac, Doomsday ASAP even if that meant having to kill.

One or several lives innocent or guilty are not worth risking the six billion plus lives on Earth.

It is just simple mathematics.

Honest to Allah I have no idea why people just don’t get it.

Cheers Mountain Sniper

Unf*ckable

05-07-2009, 04:54 AM

As much as I oppose killing like Clark, I wouldn't have thought even twice about killing Lex anytime. Davis is a different story, he never asked for what happened to him :P

ReevesSuperman

05-07-2009, 02:13 PM

The great question is can Clark kill him? I am going to say no. I don't think its believable for Clark to beat anyone on this show anymore when Braniac/Chloe was throwing him around. Clark needs to first prove he can actually take someone on this show before he goes after a killing machine. I do think everyone on this show has kicked his butt at least once including his mom. I mean look at his main event opponetts since season 5.

-Zod's disciples almost threw him into the phantom zone when in super-villain fashion turned their back on him giving him enough time to push them into the zone.

-Brainic had him dead to right til Chloe rescued him from the Kryptonite.

-He need Martian Manhunter's help to stop Bizarro after getting waxed by him in the second meeting.

-Lex multiple times outwits him while leaving a Mason killing spree in his wake. Lex even destroys the Fortress while holding Clark down.

-Black Canary knocks him around.

-Zatanna beats him down.

-Kara knocks him for a loop the first time they meet.

-Zod used him as a ragdoll and only through a last second gift did he survive.

I mean give the guy a win once and awhile. I actually thought is best fight was with Titan, because he want nuts on him. I am also sure I can find a number of other times where Clark is kicked around, but this is just the A listers. The real problem I have with Clark on this show is making him into this emo kid who is too passive agressive for his own good. In season 6, he at least had a mission and went about it without getting his butt handed to him too much. I think the CW trying to be the new lifetime should really take a look at the way Supernatural is creating bad asses and use that as a template for Clark then Gossip Girl.

Supermania

06-01-2009, 09:26 AM

Never should Superman kill. Batman? Maybe. Green Arrow? Apparently so. But Superman would and should not kill. Otherwise, he isn't Super at all, as far as I'm concerned. Clark's dilemma this episode was spot on I thought.

MjLaDy08

06-09-2009, 12:51 AM

I vote for clark... It's not because you have power above the people , it doesn't mean you use them to kill... your not God ... Punishing because of the thing she/he did doesn't mean its right...

russ72

08-30-2009, 03:29 PM

Its kindof a mute point anyways, they made Doomsday appear weak against Clark..I mean he throws what 4 punches and Clark just grabbed him and put him in that underground grave..ugh..
Now back on topic, I picked Oliver sometimes its gotta be done eventhough it may appear wrong. Ya, u could not kill whoever;but if they keep coming back and wreaking havoc,then at some point u gotta do something drastic.
With Doomsday supposedly the destroyer of man/traveler u shouldn't take that chance,but since they made it a story plot that Davis/Doomsday were two different entities then it made this argument that more interesting.
*I really enjoyed how they did Doomsday in this series on how they built him up as Davis(think in comics he just was doomsday and no human form),but the fight was tragically sad.
*I would like to see Doomsday make a reappearnce in later season,and do it right this time and follow the 'Death of Superman' comic(can always bring him back to life as they did in comics)/

jpfort1957

09-06-2009, 09:08 AM

Clark has killed others, why the problem with the guy was manufactured to kill him?????
When Clark tore the electrical cables from the wall and jammed them into Linda Lake's gut..............did he really think she would survive???????????????? I think he wanted her "DEAD"!!!!!!!!!!

supercatmom

09-08-2009, 10:43 AM

Superman should never KILL.
You would have the most powerful person on Earth kill.
And who gets to deside who Clark/Superman kills. Does he kill whoever Ollie, Chloe or the Justice League tell him to kill. Or does he just deside on his own who gets to live or die.
In the USA, no one is put to death until they have a trial by a jury of their peers.
Boy is this a bloodthirsty board.

jpfort1957

09-08-2009, 05:10 PM

supercatmom

09-10-2009, 11:16 AM

We're not talking about people...........Doomsday is a genetially engineered monster. Not much different than an engineered virus, just bigger.
If you watch the S8 dvd set, Sam Witwer explains that there never was a Davis, only camoufage.

But at the time Clark did not know this, He thought that Davis was a fellow Kryptonian.
And even mass murderers when captured are given a trial by Jury not immediately put to death.
And if they are given life inprisonment, there is a change that they can escape and kill again.
And again I ask who gets the power to decide who lives or dies?

Night_Hawk90

09-10-2009, 11:28 AM

Syn

09-10-2009, 11:45 AM

Clark was right in the sense that his choice was the more moral and his gamble payed off. Oliver was making the desiscion of a true leader by trying to protect the majority. But it was never worth the risk, and I think Clark knows that.

supercatmom

09-10-2009, 11:47 AM

What everyone seems to forget is that Davis can't die and therefore Clark could not kill him even if he wonted to.
A fact that Ollie might not know but Chloe should. Chloe having once poured Kryptonite over Davis, killing him, only to have Davis come back to life.

Syn

09-10-2009, 12:14 PM

Doubt Davis can survive vapourisation though.

jpfort1957

09-10-2009, 03:21 PM

it's quite unbelievable to see 118 posts for oliver. Clark kent/superman is the epitone of superheroes this what sets him apart from all the other he always looks for a third option. That is why clark was right, and too make him later say oliver was right was a complete slap to the character.

I guess both were right in their own way.

If you have Clark's abilities, then for him, his decision was right.

If you are a mortal like Oliver, then killing the beast is the only way to save your World. Davis already said he was sent to Earth to kill Clark. If Clark ends up dead.........then everybody is TOAST!!!!! (I really wanted to say the F word)

Oliver's Choice was right for his world!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nefertiti

09-11-2009, 05:07 PM

I have literally been on this page reading everyone's posts and i STILL CAN'T decide who to choose. I agree with both (and I know this isn't life or death or that serious but its too hard to choose...)
Can Ollie just kill everyone and make the show about him and Lois till Clark comes back but only as a changed man with some KAHONES!!! (and not with that atrocity of an outfit? that ensemble is a piece of sh*t.)

I honestly believe Ollie's decision is more logical. It's just Davis. He's one man for billions. And he's not even a good guy regardless of his human self (NOT doomsday, Davis). He ended a marriage. Killed the husband who was trying to forgive & save Chloe (and give her a damn house) and was stealing from a hospital. DIE!
But Clarks whole thing about not killing is admirable. Finding the greater good in someone even when you think there most likely won't ever be? He's got heart. Honestly, wouldn't you want someone to do the same for you (especially if you've doomsday in there)? However that doesn't mean you should let them kill and get away with it, Clark!!

i probly won't vote at all...