Something good to think about

[dunkman]

Once again, one of the villains brings up something from the Bible on Smallville. It's interesting how Tess compared Clark to Jesus & Davis to Judas, & it does make sense that she would see Judas as the reason Jesus died & rose again to be the Savior, but it's not quite true. Judas was the betrayer & was an instrument in Christ's death on the Cross, but it was the sin of all humankind--your sin & my sin--that Jesus died for! More accurately, Davis represents SIN, but that would be hard to fit into the storyline on a TV show.

[Tompouce]

Exactly. SV is not there to make us discuss about religion. I think it is totally inapproriate Clark is there as a symbol of Hope, he is not preaching about his father and about what we are supposed to do or be. Even if, of course, we all know his values, I think it is enough to love this hero. No need to have analogy with Jesus, God,...We all understand the message (we already know that people who created Clark were religious). Producers, writers have to focus on their job : Clark Kent as a hero, a savior, someone you can dream of when you are tired and you want to believe in a better world without any connection or thought for God or whatever we want to call him

[TOMophilus]

Exactly. SV is not there to make us discuss about religion. I think it is totally inapproriate Clark is there as a symbol of Hope, he is not preaching about his father and about what we are supposed to do or be. Even if, of course, we all know his values, I think it is enough to love this hero. No need to have analogy with Jesus, God,...We all understand the message (we already know that people who created Clark were religious). Producers, writers have to focus on their job : Clark Kent as a hero, a savior, someone you can dream of when you are tired and you want to believe in a better world without any connection or thought for God or whatever we want to call him
I completely agree!

Vive Voltaire! :lol:

[dunkman]

Exactly. SV is not there to make us discuss about religion. I think it is totally inapproriate Clark is there as a symbol of Hope, he is not preaching about his father and about what we are supposed to do or be. Even if, of course, we all know his values, I think it is enough to love this hero. No need to have analogy with Jesus, God,...We all understand the message (we already know that people who created Clark were religious). Producers, writers have to focus on their job : Clark Kent as a hero, a savior, someone you can dream of when you are tired and you want to believe in a better world without any connection or thought for God or whatever we want to call him

That wasn't exactly the kind of response I was looking for, but that's okay. I do believe in God & that He sent Jesus to die for our sins & that Jesus rose again, & I'll talk about it wherever I go. Tess brought out a different--incorrect--perspective, but anything that gets you thinking is good.

[workshyslacker]

Once again, one of the villains brings up something from the Bible on Smallville. It's interesting how Tess compared Clark to Jesus & Davis to Judas, & it does make sense that she would see Judas as the reason Jesus died & rose again to be the Savior, but it's not quite true. Judas was the betrayer & was an instrument in Christ's death on the Cross, but it was the sin of all humankind--your sin & my sin--that Jesus died for! More accurately, Davis represents SIN, but that would be hard to fit into the storyline on a TV show.

Sorry, David, I don't feel good at all.

[Tompouce]

I completely agree!

Vive Voltaire! :lol:
LOOOL:lol:Congratulations for your 1000 posts http://www.yelims.com/IPB/Smiley-IPB-182.gif

[workshyslacker]

I completely agree!

Vive Voltaire! :lol:


Liberté, égalité, fraternité


J'adore "Candide". C'est amusant! :D

[Davis Bloome]

I don't mind religious details in episodes, but I do see it as dangerous material to play with. Well of course it depends on the content. I've been in countless religious debates on another forum and it's playing with fire almost. Ironically sometimes it's like hell broke lose in those debates cause it's such a sensitive subject for religious people (which immediately confirms I'm not)

Anyway the content in this can be misread and could lead to offensive to religious people. But that also depends on the individual. The comparissons of the Judas figure. I try to keep it simple and not to think about it that deeply. After all Smallville is just a TV-show (and a great one at that!) so I think they just wanted to make it more interesting to put the comparisson in it. To make it bigger than it actually is. I mean if you start to compare Clark as the messiah and Doomsday as Judas, then you have something more of meaning in the story. To me Doomsday is more like Satan 'The Beast'... Wonder if he has a '666' tattoed on his body...

[Violet-Shadow]

Once again, one of the villains brings up something from the Bible on Smallville. It's interesting how Tess compared Clark to Jesus & Davis to Judas, & it does make sense that she would see Judas as the reason Jesus died & rose again to be the Savior, but it's not quite true. Judas was the betrayer & was an instrument in Christ's death on the Cross, but it was the sin of all humankind--your sin & my sin--that Jesus died for! More accurately, Davis represents SIN, but that would be hard to fit into the storyline on a TV show.

Yeah, that analogy was way off. IA with you about why Jesus came - to die for our sins - and that would've happened with or without Judas Iscariot. However, I do think SV should stay away from Biblical analogies especially since it was proved that they don't really understand them.

[Tompouce]

Davis Bloome (lol), I understand what you mean. My problem is I agree with some analogies but this season it is the second or third times they made them. It is enough ! lol. As I said, I am not watching SV to be forced to think of the Bible. I can do it on my own or not.
Davis/Dunkman, I have nothing about religion and I totally respect different beliefs, it is just in SV, there is no place for this IMOhttp://www.yelims.com/IPB/Invision-Board-France-126.gif
Charlotte/Tomophilus : you know my purpose here is to make all the people here speaking french at least once in a topic :lol: Thank you. With both of you it is the beginning:D

[marla219]

Well, I think the radical thing Tess was trying to say was that Judas isn't just the betrayer, but can be seen as God's instrument because he was necessary to bring about Jesus' death and resurrection. So, we tend to think Judas as the villain, but that is only part of the picture. One way of interpreting the story is that Jesus told Judas to do the unthinkable and betray him. This makes Judas a heroic figure because he not only sacrificed his love for Christ, but also accepted being universally reviled as a villain throughout time!

I think this will be how Tess justifies her own questionable actions. She'll see herself as acting out of love and hope to bring about Clark's destiny even if she has to do terrible things and be misunderstood as a villain to do it. That's why she was practically praising Judas' betrayal -- she sees it as a selfless act to bring about the birth of a hero.

[workshyslacker]

Je vous en prie, Karine!

[Tompouce]

Je vous en prie, Karine!
:D

[MrZeppo]

I think Tess needs to go to Sunday School or read the bible or something. While Superman WAS loosely based on the story of Jesus, Tess' metaphor just didn't work for me.

[Violet-Shadow]

Someone mentioned in another thread that Superman's story was more like the story of Moses. That's true actually. I wrote a paper about Superman a couple of semester's ago and the creators of Superman were Jewish so they paralleled Superman with Moses. I'm not sure who Moses enemy would be. The Pharoah of Egypt? That would make Davis a king...um...far reaching but that's what TPTB did with all the Biblical analogies this epi.

[Tompouce]

Yes, that is why I find it is not appropriate at all

[cksidekick]

I seem to be re-posting this all over the place:


TPTB are walking a thin line on this one IMO and it can go either way. Yes, I think he will die and come back next season, but these comparisons are a bit tricky when it comes to Superman. I can pick any epic story and find alegory(sp?) Everything from Lord of the Rings to Star Wars to Chronicles of Narnia to Superman and on and on. There are thousands of tales that draw influence from legend and myth and religion. Be it Christian faith or ancient Greek and Roman Mythology or any other epic ancient tale.

Just because Superman may have been inspired by Jesus (or more directly Moses, which many don't even consider but is more in line with the faith of the creators) that doesn't mean Superman should be treated as a religious figure. Those who elevate him to such a level IMO miss completely who he actually is. He is not even remotely close to being the most powerfull being in the universe and being a hero does not make you a God.

I'm all for Tess representing those who would see him as a God like figure. I mean, it happens right here in reality. But make no mistake! Superman does NOT have a God Complex. He does NOT believe he was sent to Earth to be our Savior. He saves peole is a physical way and he gives the world inspiration, but he makes exactly ZERO claims of being anything more than a guy who wants do what he can to help and he happens to be a huminoid from another planet. Nothing mystical or miraculous about it. The minute Smallville Clark starts to act like he has a God Complex I'm done with this show. I don't know who it insults more, Jesus or Clark.

That said, I don't mind one bit if the issue is addresed as long as, at the end of the day, Tess and her image of what he should be is rejected by Clark. So far so good. Smallville Clark dismissed her assertion out of hand and rejected it with downright anger. I don't care who Bryan Singer thinks Superman is. And at the risk of sounding arrogant, I do know who he is. More importantly and directly related to this topic, I know who he is NOT. And I'm not talking about my personal preference, I'm talking about how Superman sees himself.
He does not allow himself to be inserted into someone's hopes for spiritual salvation. He will save your physical body from a fire. The salvation of your soul is between you and someone(thing) else.


Smallville bringing the issue to the forefront can be be a good thing as long it results in an effort from Clark to squash the idea.

[superjude]

I agree, it was not appropriate. I get the comparison. But, really did they need to bring religion into the storyline again.. I mean, I have to admit that I see something of religion every single show because I have always had the belief that Tom Welling was a Sexy GOD! and I basically worship the ground he walks on. But couldn't they have left it with just the NAman/Segeeth storyline instead of bringing the Christian belief into it?

[Tompouce]

Superman does NOT have a God Complex. He does NOT believe he was sent to Earth to be our Savior. He saves peole is a physical way and he gives the world inspiration, but he makes exactly ZERO claims of being anything more than a guy who wants do what he can to help and he happens to be a huminoid from another planet. Nothing mystical or miraculous about it.
Cksidekicks : THANKS, this is exactly what I mean and feel about Clark.That is why I am so upset about the way the writers are doing their analogies

----- Added 56 Seconds later -----


I agree, it was not appropriate. I get the comparison. But, really did they need to bring religion into the storyline again.. I mean, I have to admit that I see something of religion every single show because I have always had the belief that Tom Welling was a Sexy GOD! and I basically worship the ground he walks on. But couldn't they have left it with just the NAman/Segeeth storyline instead of bringing the Christian belief into it?
ITA. And about Tom being a Sexy GOD, I have nothing to add:p:p:p:lol:;)

[TOMophilus]

And about Tom being a Sexy GOD, I have nothing to add:p:p:p:lol:;)
Yes, I think I´d reconsider my stance on religion if there were one worshipping Tom as a sex god. :lol:

Wait a second, aren´t we doing that already? :confused: :lol:

[Iluvgreen]

I was thinking the same thing.

[Tompouce]

Yes, I think I´d reconsider my stance on religion if there were one worshipping Tom as a sex god. :lol:

Wait a second, aren´t we doing that already? :confused: :lol:
You are right, it sounds familiar:lol::p

[mrw66855]

I do not mind the religious aspect of the story because it has been there since the very beginning of the show and it is the only way that other characters, and sometimes Clark can relate to what is going to happen in a sense. I mean, look at lex he would either mention or quote something as personal and related to Clark story somehow. And even in the comics and other media. Brown has always been kind of scene as a God among mortal men, the key though is that he does not think of himself as a God. And no when about to say next probably make a lot of people mad, but here I go. Did not Jesus tried to bring peace to the earth? And is not that what Clark spoke to do that, so I always thought of it (maybe not as the next Jesus, but it makes logical sense to me anyway). Also, you never know they be the creators of Superman always intended for him to be the next Jesus. But gave him an interesting storyline and superpowers so that they could sell the comics and make money. Remember our beliefs influence everything we do. Remember. Just my opinions

[cksidekick]

I don't have a problem at all with comparisons to other mythos. Isis foundation is fine. Lex pulls names for projects from ancient mythos. Superman is LIKE a God among Men. People compare him to a God in the DCU, and have conversations very similar to this one. That doesn't make him feel he should act like one.

Superman has his OWN mythos. Smallville gives us more of it than movies ever have but they still do these comparisons. If you put Superman into the DC Universe you don't need to exchange DC's mythos for another one. He lives in a world full of other "God like" characters many of which are far more powerfull than him. And some are Humans. Batman is one of them. A mortal man a "Dark Knight" who elevated himself to being an equal to Superman and Wonder Woman. I could go on and on about the EPIC status of Superman in the DCU but I won't. Point is, as I said, Supes has his own mythos that is as epic as any. He doesn't need to borrow from another one.

[dunkman]

I seem to be re-posting this all over the place:


TPTB are walking a thin line on this one IMO and it can go either way. Yes, I think he will die and come back next season, but these comparisons are a bit tricky when it comes to Superman. I can pick any epic story and find alegory(sp?) Everything from Lord of the Rings to Star Wars to Chronicles of Narnia to Superman and on and on. There are thousands of tales that draw influence from legend and myth and religion. Be it Christian faith or ancient Greek and Roman Mythology or any other epic ancient tale.

Just because Superman may have been inspired by Jesus (or more directly Moses, which many don't even consider but is more in line with the faith of the creators) that doesn't mean Superman should be treated as a religious figure. Those who elevate him to such a level IMO miss completely who he actually is. He is not even remotely close to being the most powerfull being in the universe and being a hero does not make you a God.

I'm all for Tess representing those who would see him as a God like figure. I mean, it happens right here in reality. But make no mistake! Superman does NOT have a God Complex. He does NOT believe he was sent to Earth to be our Savior. He saves peole is a physical way and he gives the world inspiration, but he makes exactly ZERO claims of being anything more than a guy who wants do what he can to help and he happens to be a huminoid from another planet. Nothing mystical or miraculous about it. The minute Smallville Clark starts to act like he has a God Complex I'm done with this show. I don't know who it insults more, Jesus or Clark.

That said, I don't mind one bit if the issue is addresed as long as, at the end of the day, Tess and her image of what he should be is rejected by Clark. So far so good. Smallville Clark dismissed her assertion out of hand and rejected it with downright anger. I don't care who Bryan Singer thinks Superman is. And at the risk of sounding arrogant, I do know who he is. More importantly and directly related to this topic, I know who he is NOT. And I'm not talking about my personal preference, I'm talking about how Superman sees himself.
He does not allow himself to be inserted into someone's hopes for spiritual salvation. He will save your physical body from a fire. The salvation of your soul is between you and someone(thing) else.


Smallville bringing the issue to the forefront can be be a good thing as long it results in an effort from Clark to squash the idea.

Well put!

[jpfort1957]

Smallville is on a different earth. They have no Superman. This Doomsday is a different kind. Maybe this Clark won't have to die. Superman in the comics never "really" died anyway.

[dunkman]

I don't have a problem at all with comparisons to other mythos. Isis foundation is fine. Lex pulls names for projects from ancient mythos. Superman is LIKE a God among Men. People compare him to a God in the DCU, and have conversations very similar to this one. That doesn't make him feel he should act like one.

Superman has his OWN mythos. Smallville gives us more of it than movies ever have but they still do these comparisons. If you put Superman into the DC Universe you don't need to exchange DC's mythos for another one. He lives in a world full of other "God like" characters many of which are far more powerfull than him. And some are Humans. Batman is one of them. A mortal man a "Dark Knight" who elevated himself to being an equal to Superman and Wonder Woman. I could go on and on about the EPIC status of Superman in the DCU but I won't. Point is, as I said, Supes has his own mythos that is as epic as any. He doesn't need to borrow from another one.

C.S. Lewis would agree with you, but J.R.R. Tolkien would not.

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----


Smallville is on a different earth. They have no Superman. This Doomsday is a different kind. Maybe this Clark won't have to die. Superman in the comics never "really" died anyway.

I always interpreted that he was only MOSTLY dead.