Davis Is More Heroic Than Clark?

[saltyweeks]

In a way, I think Davis, at this point, is a bigger hero than Clark is. It depends on your definition of a few concepts and your feelings on nautre/nuture, but consider this:

* Clark was destined by his nature to save the world. Davis was destined by his nature to destroy it.

* Clark was born to be a hero, Davis a beast.

* Clark was raised by a loving family and taught heroic, self-sacrificing values. Davis was put in a cage, abandoned on the street, and shuttled around foster homes.

*Clark has been continually reinforced to believe in himself by those who know of his deeds. Davis reads about the latest Doomsday murder in the paper and slouches into church.

AND YET, Davis himself has turned out to be a pretty good and noble guy, not a mindless killing machine. Doomsday may have been put into his DNA, but Davis really tries to make his life worthwhile for humanity. Despite his upbringing he becomes a paramedic to help people. When the beast comes out he tries to stop it, and always feels terrible about what happens, seeking religious answers and forgiveness. And when he can't control it, he tries to steer it in a vigilante direction instead of harming the innocent.

Then, when it becomes clear to him he was destined to destroy the savior of the world, his answer is-- assisted suicide to kill himself because he feels the world is safer if he sacrifices himself.

I'm sorry, but that's freakin' heroic. Davis wasn't handed any of the things Clark was either by nature or by environment. And yet, he continually tries to find a way out of his destiny so he can be who he is: a really decent guy who wants to help people. When he finds out he can't, he seeks to end his own life for the good of us all.

Yes, I know what Doomsday is destined to be. But Davis Bloom is a heck of a good fella. The way it has all been portrayed it really ISN'T his fault, not at all. And he struggles heroically against what Tess would tell him he can't fight.

When Davis loses his battle, that's when the world will be in trouble. Clark is indeed a hero, but he's had a lot of help, and he's also just a johnny-come-lately to a fight another hero has been waging all his life.

So far in the life of Doomsday the biggest enemy of Doomsday has been Davis Bloom.

[LEXCLARK]

In a way, I think Davis, at this point, is a bigger hero than Clark is. It depends on your definition of a few concepts and your feelings on nautre/nuture, but consider this:

* Clark was destined by his nature to save the world. Davis was destined by his nature to destroy it.

* Clark was born to be a hero, Davis a beast.

* Clark was raised by a loving family and taught heroic, self-sacrificing values. Davis was put in a cage, abandoned on the street, and shuttled around foster homes.

*Clark has been continually reinforced to believe in himself by those who know of his deeds. Davis reads about the latest Doomsday murder in the paper and slouches into church.

AND YET, Davis himself has turned out to be a pretty good and noble guy, not a mindless killing machine. Doomsday may have been put into his DNA, but Davis really tries to make his life worthwhile for humanity. Despite his upbringing he becomes a paramedic to help people. When the beast comes out he tries to stop it, and always feels terrible about what happens, seeking religious answers and forgiveness. And when he can't control it, he tries to steer it in a vigilante direction instead of harming the innocent.

Then, when it becomes clear to him he was destined to destroy the savior of the world, his answer is-- assisted suicide to kill himself because he feels the world is safer if he sacrifices himself.

I'm sorry, but that's freakin' heroic. Davis wasn't handed any of the things Clark was either by nature or by environment. And yet, he continually tries to find a way out of his destiny so he can be who he is: a really decent guy who wants to help people. When he finds out he can't, he seeks to end his own life for the good of us all.

Yes, I know what Doomsday is destined to be. But Davis Bloom is a heck of a good fella. The way it has all been portrayed it really ISN'T his fault, not at all. And he struggles heroically against what Tess would tell him he can't fight.

When Davis loses his battle, that's when the world will be in trouble. Clark is indeed a hero, but he's had a lot of help, and he's also just a johnny-come-lately to a fight another hero has been waging all his life.

So far in the life of Doomsday the biggest enemy of Doomsday has been Davis Bloom.

The dude kills people for a hobby.
That's not HEROIC.
It's SADISTIC!

[Tess is Smokin]

In a way, I think Davis, at this point, is a bigger hero than Clark is. It depends on your definition of a few concepts and your feelings on nautre/nuture, but consider this:

* Clark was destined by his nature to save the world. Davis was destined by his nature to destroy it.

* Clark was born to be a hero, Davis a beast.

* Clark was raised by a loving family and taught heroic, self-sacrificing values. Davis was put in a cage, abandoned on the street, and shuttled around foster homes.

*Clark has been continually reinforced to believe in himself by those who know of his deeds. Davis reads about the latest Doomsday murder in the paper and slouches into church.

AND YET, Davis himself has turned out to be a pretty good and noble guy, not a mindless killing machine. Doomsday may have been put into his DNA, but Davis really tries to make his life worthwhile for humanity. Despite his upbringing he becomes a paramedic to help people. When the beast comes out he tries to stop it, and always feels terrible about what happens, seeking religious answers and forgiveness. And when he can't control it, he tries to steer it in a vigilante direction instead of harming the innocent.

Then, when it becomes clear to him he was destined to destroy the savior of the world, his answer is-- assisted suicide to kill himself because he feels the world is safer if he sacrifices himself.

I'm sorry, but that's freakin' heroic. Davis wasn't handed any of the things Clark was either by nature or by environment. And yet, he continually tries to find a way out of his destiny so he can be who he is: a really decent guy who wants to help people. When he finds out he can't, he seeks to end his own life for the good of us all.

Yes, I know what Doomsday is destined to be. But Davis Bloom is a heck of a good fella. The way it has all been portrayed it really ISN'T his fault, not at all. And he struggles heroically against what Tess would tell him he can't fight.

When Davis loses his battle, that's when the world will be in trouble. Clark is indeed a hero, but he's had a lot of help, and he's also just a johnny-come-lately to a fight another hero has been waging all his life.

So far in the life of Doomsday the biggest enemy of Doomsday has been Davis Bloom.



Clark thought the world would be better off with him not in it. remember apocalypse? he was ready to let Brainiac kill him. both Clark and Davis tried to defy their destiny and they both fail at it.

[Davis Bloome]

No he kills criminals so the beast he can't control doesn't kill totally innocent people. He knows the other way is only to control the beast with Chloe and he proposed to kill himself which didn't work. So that's noble, not sure to call it heroic, but you got to be brave for sure to sacrifice your life for the greater good.

[Night_Hawk90]

No he kills criminals so the beast he can't control doesn't kill totally innocent people. He knows the other way is only to control the beast with Chloe and he proposed to kill himself which didn't work. So that's noble, not sure to call it heroic, but you got to be brave for sure to sacrifice your life for the greater good.

either which way your look it killing people is wrong i dont care if they're drug dealers, pedophiles, etc, what right does he have to end a persons life. That is not noble that is just a cop out to make him believe he is doing the right thing.

[chlo-el]

It is very heroic to fight the monster inside. And part of defintion of being a hero is to sacrafice your own life to save others.

And Davis did have a rotten life and yet and he still tried to be good. Any of the killings he did he was forced to do chosing the lesser of two evils so he doesn't end up killing more innocent people.

At this point though I wouldn't say he is more heroic then Clark. Clark never had to do those things. Clark has had his bit of heroism too. And he has had the good life. But I think at this point and this ep Clark was very heroic and sympathetic.

[saltyweeks]

either which way your look it killing people is wrong i dont care if they're drug dealers, pedophiles, etc, what right does he have to end a persons life. That is not noble that is just a cop out to make him believe he is doing the right thing.

i wouldn't say he's doing it to try to do the right thing (that's what Tess would say-- did you catch the Batman reference?) but to control the beast no matter the cost, which is a greater good-- when even that fails he thinks suicide.

think of how many people would find out they were meant to be Doomsday and not take these extreme measures, thinking about self-preservation only

[Tess is Smokin]

It is very heroic to fight the monster inside. And part of defintion of being a hero is to sacrafice your own life to save others.

And Davis did have a rotten life and yet and he still tried to be good. Any of the killings he did he was forced to do chosing the lesser of two evils so he doesn't end up killing more innocent people.

At this point though I wouldn't say he is more heroic then Clark. Clark never had to do those things. Clark has had his bit of heroism too. And he has had the good life. But I think at this point and this ep Clark was very heroic and sympathetic.


he's sacrificing OTHER people's lives to safe others.

[Vindellavon]

Noble, not heroic. Davis saw what he was, and in order to both live and contain the beast, he set off to do the vigilante job.

[chlo-el]

he's sacrificing OTHER people's lives to safe others.

I was refrring to when he was killing himself. So he wouldn't hurt anyone anymore.

[Cogito17]

I think heroic is stretching it a little bit, and more heroic than Clark I have to firmly disagree with.

I would describe it as making the best of a really really bad situation. Regardless, he does not have the right to appoint himself judge, jury, and executioner.

I think with what he knows about Clark now, he should turn to Clark for help, perhaps to at least seperate himself from the beast. Killing himself would have been the easy way out. The ideal would have been to try and cure himself.

I see where you are coming from to an extent, but as I said, I wouldn't call him heroic, more just making the best of a bad situation/being a tragic villain.

[Davis Bloome]

But yeah saying Davis kill people as a hobby, saying he's sadist is unreasonable. If people think that then they don't know the difference between Davis and Doomsday very well and don't understand what he's trying to do to stop him.

[Tess is Smokin]

I was refrring to when he was killing himself. So he wouldn't hurt anyone anymore.


you mean when he made him self stronger,immortal and indestructible

[Davis Bloome]

you mean when he made him self stronger,immortal and indestructible
As if he knew?

[Kevin24]

He does know now

[chlo-el]

you mean when he made him self stronger,immortal and indestructible

He didn't know that, at that moment he was being heroic.

[Davis Bloome]

He does know now
Sure when it's too late, but he thought Kryptonite would kill him as it seemed to have the same effect on him when he was a kid, when Lex opened the box with kryptonite in it.

[Tess is Smokin]

As if he knew?



"That which kills you makes you stronger" hear any bells ringing?

[Davis Bloome]

"That which kills you makes you stronger" hear any bells ringing?
No, but "What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger" does. And there is a big difference if you look at this episode between your saying and mine.

[chlo-el]

Davis really di think it would kill him. Even though he did die and come back to life he figured that the kryptonite could be the one thing that could kill him.

[Tess is Smokin]

No, but "What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger" does. And there is a big difference if you look at this episode between your saying and mine.


what?.. thats not even close to what Faora told Davis when she stabbed him with a pole. what are you talking about?

[Davis Bloome]

Yeah sorry, I forgot what she said, but she's just saying something that is based on the actual saying "That what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger". I just forgot that she changed it.

[SnowBird]

I can't agree with you on this one. I could compare Davis with dictators who mass murder because they think a certain group of people are bad for the world. Picking and choosing people who you think the world would be better off without isn't heroic, it's playing God.

[MrZeppo]

While I agree that Davis isn't the cut and dry bad guy, he's actually a good person at heart being forced to do horrible things, I don't think he's a bigger hero than Clark. Mostly because I've seen years of Clark doing the right thing. Yeah he has made mistakes, but he is a good man and does try to do the right thing in the end.



Then, when it becomes clear to him he was destined to destroy the savior of the world, his answer is-- assisted suicide to kill himself because he feels the world is safer if he sacrifices himself.


This isn't true however. Davis said it himself. I dunno if you missed it, but when Clark told Davis not to be a martyr Davis told him that his desire to kill himself doesn't have anything to do with Clark. He wanted to die because he couldn't live with himself for everything he has done. It had nothing to do with Clark and everything to do with ending his own suffering.

[Davis Bloome]

Imo it's not heroic, but it's not playing God either. If he has to kill people to save innocents then there is little choice he has then to rid the innocent of the bad people...

[chlo-el]

Imo it's not heroic, but it's not playing God either. If he has to kill people to save innocents then there is little choice he has then to rid the innocent of the bad people...

I agree w/ you. I think the part whre he sacrafices himself is very heroic and the other is him just doing the best he can to save others he has no choice in the matter.

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----


While I agree that Davis isn't the cut and dry bad guy, he's actually a good person at heart being forced to do horrible things, I don't think he's a bigger hero than Clark. Mostly because I've seen years of Clark doing the right thing. Yeah he has made mistakes, but he is a good man and does try to do the right thing in the end.



This isn't true however. Davis said it himself. I dunno if you missed it, but when Clark told Davis not to be a martyr Davis told him that his desire to kill himself doesn't have anything to do with Clark. He wanted to die because he couldn't live with himself for everything he has done. It had nothing to do with Clark and everything to do with ending his own suffering.

I agree he was ending his own suffering but he still did it so he wouldn't hurt anyone else. Even though he said he wasn't trying to be a martyr to me that is still very heroic.

[Davis Bloome]

But lets talk about Clark heroics. I mean before Davis became indestructible he was surely a lot more vulnerable than Clark and Clark except for the Kryptonite is as good as invulnerable. So it's not like he is risking his life constantly in order to save people. There is no doubt that Clark is very noble in what he does. If he wasn't he would still have his powers watching people die on TV. But he gives what time he has on saving people and that is certainly noble, but is it so heroic knowing that he is practically invincible? Just asking others opinions so we can see if we can compare if Davis is not as heroic as Clark.

[Autumn]

In a way, I think Davis, at this point, is a bigger hero than Clark is. It depends on your definition of a few concepts and your feelings on nautre/nuture, but consider this:

* Clark was destined by his nature to save the world. Davis was destined by his nature to destroy it.

* Clark was born to be a hero, Davis a beast.

* Clark was raised by a loving family and taught heroic, self-sacrificing values. Davis was put in a cage, abandoned on the street, and shuttled around foster homes.

*Clark has been continually reinforced to believe in himself by those who know of his deeds. Davis reads about the latest Doomsday murder in the paper and slouches into church.

AND YET, Davis himself has turned out to be a pretty good and noble guy, not a mindless killing machine. Doomsday may have been put into his DNA, but Davis really tries to make his life worthwhile for humanity. Despite his upbringing he becomes a paramedic to help people. When the beast comes out he tries to stop it, and always feels terrible about what happens, seeking religious answers and forgiveness. And when he can't control it, he tries to steer it in a vigilante direction instead of harming the innocent.

Then, when it becomes clear to him he was destined to destroy the savior of the world, his answer is-- assisted suicide to kill himself because he feels the world is safer if he sacrifices himself.

I'm sorry, but that's freakin' heroic. Davis wasn't handed any of the things Clark was either by nature or by environment. And yet, he continually tries to find a way out of his destiny so he can be who he is: a really decent guy who wants to help people. When he finds out he can't, he seeks to end his own life for the good of us all.

Yes, I know what Doomsday is destined to be. But Davis Bloom is a heck of a good fella. The way it has all been portrayed it really ISN'T his fault, not at all. And he struggles heroically against what Tess would tell him he can't fight.

When Davis loses his battle, that's when the world will be in trouble. Clark is indeed a hero, but he's had a lot of help, and he's also just a johnny-come-lately to a fight another hero has been waging all his life.

So far in the life of Doomsday the biggest enemy of Doomsday has been Davis Bloom.

Truer words could not have been spoken. THANK YOU! This is exactly how I see it. Davis is a hero from my perspective. So much WORD!!!!!! Standing ovation.

Despite all the odds, Davis STILL tries to be a good guy. He even sacrifices his life. I thought what he tried to do was heartbreaking.

[smallvillerocks45]

I certainly don't think Davis is more heroic than Clark. He may be noble, but more heroic? I have a hard time buying into that.

A very interesting paradigm has been placed before us. Davis thinks that he is a real person with something to live for - but the truth is, it's only a mask, or at least it's supposed to be. The person he thinks he is isn't real. This is problematic, because it kind of suggests that all is determined and we have no choice in how we live our lives. Based on what we've seen with Clark, however, people always have a choice, Kryptonian or not.

Clark did not have to become, the Red-Blue Blur, he didn't have to save people when he was in high school, but he felt a sense of duty. It could have been because of his upbringing, sure... but he still had to decide to take that Red-K ring off in Metropolis. Part of me thinks that one day, Davis is just going to stop caring, that's a choice - and not a heroic one... and the day he does, I think, will be the day when Clark meets the battle of a lifetime.

[Autumn]

It is very heroic to fight the monster inside. And part of defintion of being a hero is to sacrafice your own life to save others.

And Davis did have a rotten life and yet and he still tried to be good. Any of the killings he did he was forced to do chosing the lesser of two evils so he doesn't end up killing more innocent people.

At this point though I wouldn't say he is more heroic then Clark. Clark never had to do those things. Clark has had his bit of heroism too. And he has had the good life. But I think at this point and this ep Clark was very heroic and sympathetic.

I agree with this. It's not like he can just stop the killings whenever he wished. He killed whenever the beast started to take over. He chose to kill bad guys instead of killing tons of innocent people. It's horrific, but he didn't know what else to do. Then he thinks he can kill himself for the greater good. I saw that as heroic even though it didn't work. So what does he do? He goes to Chloe next because she's his last chance to control it. I do think Clark acted like a hero in this one as well. It just sucks that Davis got the raw end of the deal when he tries so hard to be good, even though everything in his life has been one neverending nightmare, save for Chloe.

[Mickey_Bickey]

I'm sorry, but Davis is no hero. He's a serial killer. There is no comparison!!

[MrZeppo]

I agree he was ending his own suffering but he still did it so he wouldn't hurt anyone else. Even though he said he wasn't trying to be a martyr to me that is still very heroic.

I agree. While I still believe Davis wanting to kill himself had nothing to do with Clark. I think it had everything to do with ending his own suffering, not having to kill people (bad guys or innocents), and basically was a heroic act in my eyes. Many here look at it as a black and white situation where because Davis kills he's automatically evil. But they ignore WHY he kills. And while I will never condone murder, I understand Davis POV.

He had blackouts where he killed people. Then he came to realize he was killing people he was horrified. He didn't think there was anyway to kill himself earlier, so he made a tough choice. He started killing badguys to surpress Doomsday, who would kill people regardless of if someone is innocent or not. It was the only choice he had at the time. But when he discovered Green K could kill him, he thought he finally had a way to end it all.

Yes regardless of the killing and stuff, Davis has done some good things. But I wouldn't classify any of them as truly heroic until last night when he wanted to kill himself. I think that's the closest he's come so far to true heroism. And I will close by saying I do not believe one act of true heroism outweights all the good and heroic things Clark has done in the world. Sorry. Just my own personal opinion.

[Autumn]

I can't agree with you on this one. I could compare Davis with dictators who mass murder because they think a certain group of people are bad for the world. Picking and choosing people who you think the world would be better off without isn't heroic, it's playing God.

Dictators? Mass Murders? They all had a choice. Davis doesn't. He just chooses the lesser of two evils. Given free will, he would have never chosen to be a killer at all.

[chlo-el]

I agree with this. It's not like he can just stop the killings whenever he wished. He killed whenever the beast started to take over. He chose to kill bad guys instead of killing tons of innocent people. It's horrific, but he didn't know what else to do. Then he thinks he can kill himself for the greater good. I saw that as heroic even though it didn't work. So what does he do? He goes to Chloe next because she's his last chance to control it. I do think Clark acted like a hero in this one as well. It just sucks that Davis got the raw end of the deal when he tries so hard to be good, even though everything in his life has been one neverending nightmare, save for Chloe.

I know his life really does stink. He was handed a really raw deal. But despite the horrible hand he was dealt he tries to make the best out of it still trying to be as good as he can.

[Davis Bloome]

But does Davis truly have a choice. At this moment I've only seen three options for him in life. Kill bad guys to stop the beast. Allow himself to become the beast and kill innocents or try to spend the rest of his life with Chloe and hope that love will stop the beast. He has been trying for the first option, he never wanted the second and he can only hope, but not chose for the third option. So maybe he does have a small choice. Kill innocents or kill baddies... What's the best one?

[SnowBird]

Imo it's not heroic, but it's not playing God either. If he has to kill people to save innocents then there is little choice he has then to rid the innocent of the bad people...

Davis might think he is ridding the world of low life but it isn't his choice to make. It would be better if he put himself out in the desert or the highest mountain away from humans.

Not blaming you for this, but how easy was it for some to say Clark was playing God by not returning all of Chloe's memories of his secret (which I don't think he was), yet it isn't alright to say Davis is playing God by murdering a certain group of people. I call that a double standard.

----- Added 2 Minutes later -----


Dictators? Mass Murders? They all had a choice. Davis doesn't. He just chooses the lesser of two evils. Given free will, he would have never chosen to be a killer at all.

He does have a choice. Remove himself from the temptation of killing. It's a big world where there are no humans at all.

[chlo-el]

I agree. While I still believe Davis wanting to kill himself had nothing to do with Clark. I think it had everything to do with ending his own suffering, not having to kill people (bad guys or innocents), and basically was a heroic act in my eyes. Many here look at it as a black and white situation where because Davis kills he's automatically evil. But they ignore WHY he kills. And while I will never condone murder, I understand Davis POV.

He had blackouts where he killed people. Then he came to realize he was killing people he was horrified. He didn't think there was anyway to kill himself earlier, so he made a tough choice. He started killing badguys to surpress Doomsday, who would kill people regardless of if someone is innocent or not. It was the only choice he had at the time. But when he discovered Green K could kill him, he thought he finally had a way to end it all.

Yes regardless of the killing and stuff, Davis has done some good things. But I wouldn't classify any of them as truly heroic until last night when he wanted to kill himself. I think that's the closest he's come so far to true heroism. And I will close by saying I do not believe one act of true heroism outweights all the good and heroic things Clark has done in the world. Sorry. Just my own personal opinion.

No need to apologize. I don't think Davis is more heroic then Clark. I don't think they can be compared really because Clark got handed a good deal and Davis handed a bad deal. Clark has done good heroic things but one wonders would he still do that if their places were switched? Clark had a good life and people who loved him and Davis didn't yet Davis could surpass all of that and still tried to be good guy.

And before all of this happeend Davis had dedicated his life to saving people and showed he cared about people even though he didn't seem to have much people in his life to care about him.

[Davis Bloome]

Davis might think he is ridding the world of low life but it isn't his choice to make. It would be better if he put himself out in the desert or the highest mountain away from humans.

Not blaming you for this, but how easy was it for some to say Clark was playing God by not returning all of Chloe's memories of his secret (which I don't think he was), yet it isn't alright to say Davis is playing God by murdering a certain group of people. I call that a double standard.
I see what you mean, and I can respect that. It's maybe not his choice to make, I mean it's still wrong. But calling it playing God is maybe a bit exaggerated. And I agree it has been that Clark has also played God in that aspect too. After all he played with stronger powers such as going back in time to stop Lana from dying, thereby sealing the fate of someone else. That was a lot more selfish imo than what Davis is doing with killing these people.


He does have a choice. Remove himself from the temptation of killing. It's a big world where there are no humans at all. Let's say he would do that. It's just a theory but here. He goes off to a deserted place where he would become Doomsday but there would be nobody to kill. However Doomsday's thirst wouldn't be settled, cause I think he only changes back into Davis when Doomsday's thirst is settled, that is why Davis kills first so he can prevent becoming Doomsday. So let's say that his thirst wasn't settled. He could become permanently Doomsday and then he would escape from this deserted world and go on killing again.

[chlo-el]

But does Davis truly have a choice. At this moment I've only seen three options for him in life. Kill bad guys to stop the beast. Allow himself to become the beast and kill innocents or try to spend the rest of his life with Chloe and hope that love will stop the beast. He has been trying for the first option, he never wanted the second and he can only hope, but not chose for the third option. So maybe he does have a small choice. Kill innocents or kill baddies... What's the best one?

I say having love stop the beast with in is the best choice.

[Autumn]

I say having love stop the beast with in is the best choice.

I agree which is what Davis is shooting for!

[RedKRules]

In a way, I think Davis, at this point, is a bigger hero than Clark is. It depends on your definition of a few concepts and your feelings on nautre/nuture, but consider this:

* Clark was destined by his nature to save the world. Davis was destined by his nature to destroy it.

* Clark was born to be a hero, Davis a beast.

* Clark was raised by a loving family and taught heroic, self-sacrificing values. Davis was put in a cage, abandoned on the street, and shuttled around foster homes.

*Clark has been continually reinforced to believe in himself by those who know of his deeds. Davis reads about the latest Doomsday murder in the paper and slouches into church.

AND YET, Davis himself has turned out to be a pretty good and noble guy, not a mindless killing machine. Doomsday may have been put into his DNA, but Davis really tries to make his life worthwhile for humanity. Despite his upbringing he becomes a paramedic to help people. When the beast comes out he tries to stop it, and always feels terrible about what happens, seeking religious answers and forgiveness. And when he can't control it, he tries to steer it in a vigilante direction instead of harming the innocent.

Then, when it becomes clear to him he was destined to destroy the savior of the world, his answer is-- assisted suicide to kill himself because he feels the world is safer if he sacrifices himself.

I'm sorry, but that's freakin' heroic. Davis wasn't handed any of the things Clark was either by nature or by environment. And yet, he continually tries to find a way out of his destiny so he can be who he is: a really decent guy who wants to help people. When he finds out he can't, he seeks to end his own life for the good of us all.

Yes, I know what Doomsday is destined to be. But Davis Bloom is a heck of a good fella. The way it has all been portrayed it really ISN'T his fault, not at all. And he struggles heroically against what Tess would tell him he can't fight.

When Davis loses his battle, that's when the world will be in trouble. Clark is indeed a hero, but he's had a lot of help, and he's also just a johnny-come-lately to a fight another hero has been waging all his life.

So far in the life of Doomsday the biggest enemy of Doomsday has been Davis Bloom.

ITA!! :cool:

[SnowBird]

I see what you mean, and I can respect that. It's maybe not his choice to make, I mean it's still wrong. But calling it playing God is maybe a bit exaggerated. And I agree it has been that Clark has also played God in that aspect too. After all he played with stronger powers such as going back in time to stop Lana from dying, thereby sealing the fate of someone else. That was a lot more selfish imo than what Davis is doing with killing these people.

I don't like the word selfish in wanting to save someone you love from dying. That is called trying to save a life. Clark regreted going back in time. He knows the problems with time travel and destroyed the Legion ring. Clark changed because of his mistake.

Davis might have regrets for being a killer, but he will not change. Keeping Chloe by his side to control the beast is a form of slavery. He made her make a choice between freedom or staying with him. She will not have a normal life and has broken the law by hiding a killer which will backfire according to a spoiler which I can't mention. Davis has selfish reasons for his actions.

I just don't get why people try to justify why Davis is a killer and try to make him a good guy. This is just backwards thinking to me. I'll never understand it, so to each their own.

[dobby]

Davis is a MURDERER. That is not heroic at all. And trying to JUSTIFY it by saying that he is trying to fight the beast within is a cop-out.

The difference between Clark and Davis is that Clark believes that you cannot take a life, period. If it was Clark fighting an inner beast, I think he would move himself to a place where he wouldn't hurt anyone - contrasting with Davis who is playing GOD by deciding who lives and who dies. HE decides whose crime deserves capital punishment. He is a danger to everyone around him, he stays and works in a densely populated city. :rolleyes: Sorry but there is NOTHING heroic in that.

Chloe deserves everything thats coming to her for harbouring this monster.

[Bizarrolover]

Davis assumed, based in the pain he felt from the meteor rocks for about 5 seconds when he was a child, that kryptonite might kill him. He wasn't 100% sure he would die but he was very much aware of the fact that, if he came back from this one, he would become immune to death by kryptonite.

I don't see anything heroic about him. Tragic, yes, bot not heroic. I don't think he's a hero or a martyr because he knew there were chances that he would come back from that chamber and become an even bigger threat. Entering a suicidal chamber knowing you can survive is not a sacrifice, is just playing with your chances.

We don't know much about Davis' background either, just that Lionel Luthor discarded him five days after he found him. So we don't know if his choice of being a paramedic is purely altruistic, if he was moved by guilt or just a way to cover the trail of carnage he usually leaves behind. Just because he's handsome and has good intentions doesn't mean that what he's doing is right. If I were in his place, I would live like a hermit on top of a deserted mountain to narrow down the possiblity of killing someone. Yet Davis chose to live in a huge city, with lots of possible victims within reach 24/7.

So no, I don't think he's a hero. I don't pity him because his tragic story. He's a genetically ingeneerd killing machine and that's not going to change.

[Davis Bloome]

I don't like the word selfish in wanting to save someone you love from dying. That is called trying to save a life. Clark regreted going back in time. He knows the problems with time travel and destroyed the Legion ring. Clark changed because of his mistake.
So you're saying it wasn't selfish. Yes he went back to save the one he loves... almost as if Lana was a possession to him he lost. And he knew the consequences. If he brought back Lana someone else would die, but he chose to ignore it. But I agree that he did learn from his lesson in the future. He knew it was dangerous to play again with time travel and that's why he destroyed the ring.



Davis might have regrets for being a killer, but he will not change. Keeping Chloe by his side to control the beast is a form of slavery. He made her make a choice between freedom or staying with him. She will not have a normal life and has broken the law by hiding a killer which will backfire according to a spoiler which I can't mention. Davis has selfish reasons for his actions.
Everybody has a choice, as you said. Chloe made hers. And she made her choice out of love and dedication for Clark. I'm not saying that there's nothing morally wrong with what both are doing. But nevertheless I admire what both are trying to do and I admire the dedication they have to each other and the dedication Davis has to stop himself. If he didn't care or had no morals at all then he could just let go and let the beast go lose. And he learned those morals probably by himself as he mostly had no one to learn from.


I just don't get why people try to justify why Davis is a killer and try to make him a good guy. This is just backwards thinking to me. I'll never understand it, so to each their own. He is a good guy. He kills for the greater good. It's a different heroism than Clark for sure. And to sacrifice yourself for the greater good is heroic imo. It's not everyday it happens that one is determined to sacrifice his own life to save the life of others. Mostly humans are selfish and would chose to save their own life above others. I mean when was the last time Clark was faced with self-sacrifice?

[devilicus rebel]

To a certain level I agree with you. On one hand, Davis was ready to kill himself for the good of mankind. One the other hand, he killed a hell of a lot of people before he made the decision. Still, I think Davis is not as much of a wimp as Clark is. I really loved how Chloe smacked him down about killing Davis when she said he refuses to stop the things that threaten him. I also saw fear on Clark's face when Davis started to change right before the rained Kryptonite on him and that was sort of sad to see. I really wish he would man up and in that regard I think Davis has the edge.

[Bizarrolover]

He is a good guy. He kills for the greater good. It's a different heroism than Clark for sure. And to sacrifice yourself for the greater good is heroic imo. It's not everyday it happens that one is determined to sacrifice his own life to save the life of others. Mostly humans are selfish and would chose to save their own life above others. I mean when was the last time Clark was faced with self-sacrifice?

Are you serious? Davis kills for a greater good? What about that nun? Was she evil?? Are you sure that all the people that were buried in that field (there were at least 100 bodies there) deserved to die the way they did?

Also, killing yourself knowing that there are many chances that you can come back to life is not heroic. Aware of it or not, Davis is now experimenting different kind of deaths and evolving, becoming more and more invulnerable every time. Soon he will be unstoppable.

[lm1212]

Davis is not a murderer IMO. Doomsday is. And everyone is so quick to say that Davis is just a camouflage, but this guy is living a human life, too. to name him a Hero is a far stretch, but I think he's definitely handing the situation he is presented with in a good way, even though he will still end up screwed.

[Davis Bloome]

One the other hand, he killed a hell of a lot of people before he made the decision. Yes, but how could he kill himself. Until he had the flashback in the Luther mansion he didn't know how to kill himself


Are you serious? Davis kills for a greater good? What about that nun? Was she evil?? Are you sure that all the people that were buried in that field (there were at least 100 bodies there) deserved to die the way they did?

Also, killing yourself knowing that there are many chances that you can come back to life is not heroic. Aware of it or not, Davis is now experimenting different kind of deaths and evolving, becoming more and more invulnerable every time. Soon he will be unstoppable.
So he wasn't entirely sure it would kill him, but at least he's trying. You have to appreciate the attempt he's trying to make.
I don't remember Davis killing a nun... Maybe I missed something. It was wrong to kill the reporter, but at least he found a way to contain the beast, and I'm not saying it's right either, but considering what choices he has, it was probably the best one he could take.

[Anu]

I mean not everyone is like Davis, even if they would have a Beast in himself. Davis is really heroic, in my opinion. Instead killing anyone, he kills bad people, which he doesn't want to do either, but has too.

[Bizarrolover]

Yes, but how could he kill himself. Until he had the flashback in the Luther mansion he didn't know how to kill himself


So he wasn't entirely sure it would kill him, but at least he's trying. You have to appreciate the attempt he's trying to make.
I don't remember Davis killing a nun... Maybe I missed something. It was wrong to kill the reporter, but at least he found a way to contain the beast, and I'm not saying it's right either, but considering what choices he has, it was probably the best one he could take.

The nun was killed in Prey. That's where the crucifix he has in his ambulance comes from.

If I ever go on a killing spree because I can't help it, I want you to be my jury. ;)

[Davis Bloome]

AH! But she was killed by Doomsday, not by Davis... I'm sure you know where the difference lies.

[chlo-el]

The nun was killed in Prey. That's where the crucifix he has in his ambulance comes from.

If I ever go on a killing spree because I can't help it, I want you to be my jury. ;)

Davis didn't kill the nun Doomsday did, there is a big difference.

[workshyslacker]

I sympathise with Davis, mainly because SW is so good at emoting. However, I disagree with you on several points.



* Clark was destined by his nature to save the world. Davis was destined by his nature to destroy it.


It's debatable how "rigid" destiny is. This all comes down to existentialism and whether you believe in Fate. Personally, I don't. However, within the boundaries of the show, it seems that destiny is unavoidable. But this makes Davis tragic, not heroic.



* Clark was born to be a hero, Davis a beast.
Yes, and he deserves our sympathy and understanding. Does this make the things he's done wrong? No, murder is the intention to kill. It wasn't manslaughter. He was carrying that shovel in his carboot knowing he was going out to kill someone. He tried to divert his killing instinct to people he would feel less guilty about, but it didn't work because Davis still feels guilty; because he knows its still wrong.



* Clark was raised by a loving family and taught heroic, self-sacrificing values. Davis was put in a cage, abandoned on the street, and shuttled around foster homes.
And does everyone who has a disadvantaged background become killers? My take is that this is part of the reason he feels the need for companionship, and be loved, but in the context of the story he was designed to become "The Ultimate Destroyer". As Chloiac says, "he has no free will." Even if he were to have a priveliged background, he could not stop. Outside of the story's context, Davis' disadvantaged background may be stretched to give him a reason, but its no excuse.



*Clark has been continually reinforced to believe in himself by those who know of his deeds. Davis reads about the latest Doomsday murder in the paper and slouches into church.
He has "no free will." Even without the negative reinforcement, he could not stop. This is still tragedy. Not heroism.



AND YET, Davis himself has turned out to be a pretty good and noble guy, not a mindless killing machine. Doomsday may have been put into his DNA, but Davis really tries to make his life worthwhile for humanity. Despite his upbringing he becomes a paramedic to help people. When the beast comes out he tries to stop it, and always feels terrible about what happens, seeking religious answers and forgiveness. And when he can't control it, he tries to steer it in a vigilante direction instead of harming the innocent.
I agree. He's an EMT. He tries to help people, instead he ends up killing them. That's tragic irony in the worst possible way. Does the fact that he regrets it change the fate of those hes killed? No, it doesn't.



Then, when it becomes clear to him he was destined to destroy the savior of the world, his answer is-- assisted suicide to kill himself because he feels the world is safer if he sacrifices himself.
I won't moralise on euthanasia or assisted suicide. However, Davis' actions are of redemption. He's trying to stop the killing in the only way he sees possible. He's not proud of what he's done, he's desperate and just wants it to stop. Yes, I agree, its not an easy decision, but this is not heroism, its an attempt at atonement.



I'm sorry, but that's freakin' heroic. Davis wasn't handed any of the things Clark was either by nature or by environment. And yet, he continually tries to find a way out of his destiny so he can be who he is: a really decent guy who wants to help people. When he finds out he can't, he seeks to end his own life for the good of us all.
The definition of a hero has changed throughout history. In the past it was synonymous with "demigod" or just a really, really good, unbeatable warrior whom everyone emulated. In the modern day, "heroism" more often means a pure, altruistic act, even if it means self-sacrifice. Your argument may have had more weight if he had done so before the killing began. I just don't see a killer as a hero, and worthy of emulation, sorry.



When Davis loses his battle, that's when the world will be in trouble. Clark is indeed a hero, but he's had a lot of help, and he's also just a johnny-come-lately to a fight another hero has been waging all his life.
If you look at greek/roman/norse myths about heroes, they always receive help from gods, patrons, side-kicks. In those stories, it doesn't matter if they had help. They still did what no-one else managed to do, and passed their tests of courage and strength. So I disagree, just because Clark had help doesn't mean he's not a hero. One could say Clark is heroic because he has been faced with the option to kill or take a life, but he passed that test. So yeah, he is a hero. He didn't take the easy way out.



So far in the life of Doomsday the biggest enemy of Doomsday has been Davis Bloom.His act of self-sacrifice may have been more "heroic" if he had tried to stop the killing before it started. Even when he became cognizant of his deeds, he didn't try to stop it. He diverted it. That was Davis' test. And he took the easy way out.

I sympathise with Davis. His story is tragic, he's essentially a good guy. I just don't agree that he's heroic, even before one can compare with Clark.

[SnowBird]

He is a good guy. He kills for the greater good. It's a different heroism than Clark for sure. And to sacrifice yourself for the greater good is heroic imo. It's not everyday it happens that one is determined to sacrifice his own life to save the life of others. Mostly humans are selfish and would chose to save their own life above others. I mean when was the last time Clark was faced with self-sacrifice?

Good guys don't intentionally choose a victum and murder, period! Jack the Ripper probably thought he was being heroic by ridding the world of prostitutes. In my book, Davis and Jack the Ripper are no different. Heroic, NOT!

I am predicting that Clark will be the self sacrifice when he fights Doomsday. He will try to stop DD to protect mankind and the world knowing that he may not live through the battle. It can't get any bigger than that.

[Davis Bloome]

His act of self-sacrifice may have been more "heroic" if he had tried to stop the killing before it started. Even when he became cognizant of his deeds, he didn't try to stop it. He diverted it. He took the easy way out.

I sympathise with Davis. His story is tragic, he's essentially a good guy. I just don't agree that he's heroic, even before one can compare with Clark. I'm sure he has tried to stop himself. He even tried to kill himself with a knife but it didn't help did it. Although that wasn't self-sacrifice, okay. It was a test. But then he knew he couldn't kill himself so he had to find a way and he only found out one in this episode... And the tragic part is that it still didn't kill him.

----- Added 3 Minutes later -----


Good guys don't intentionally choose a victum and murder, period! Jack the Ripper probably thought he was being heroic by ridding the world of prostitutes. In my book, Davis and Jack the Ripper are no different. Heroic, NOT! There's is a huge difference. Jack the Ripper was a sicko who killed out of pleasure or hatred. Jack the Ripper hated women, that is why he killed. Jack the Ripper didn't feel remorse over the people he killed, Davis does, even over the ones who are bad. I'm not saying that the killing of evil people to save that of innocent people is heroic, not at all. But the act of self-sacrifice was. Or at least it was noble for him to try.

[workshyslacker]

I'm sure he has tried to stop himself. He even tried to kill himself with a knife but it didn't help did it. Although that wasn't self-sacrifice, okay. It was a test. But then he knew he couldn't kill himself so he had to find a way and he only found out one in this episode... And the tragic part is that it still didn't kill him.


I saw that act as trying to corroborate the revelations when Faora/Lois told him he was the son of Zod. At that moment, it wasn't because he was trying to prevent the killings.

Unfortunately, his compulsion to kill took over, and thats tragedy, followed by self-sacrifice and redemption.

[SnowBird]

There's is a huge difference. Jack the Ripper was a sicko who killed out of pleasure or hatred. Jack the Ripper hated women, that is why he killed. Jack the Ripper didn't feel remorse over the people he killed, Davis does, even over the ones who are bad. I'm not saying that the killing of evil people to save that of innocent people is heroic, not at all. But the act of self-sacrifice was. Or at least it was noble for him to try.

You say Jack the Ripper couldn't stop himself from killing because he was a sicko who hated.

Davis is a sicko since he habitually hates bad guys and kills them, hides the bodies and won't take responsibility for his actions, Asks Chloe to be his fix to control himself and on and on with future spoilers. Yep, they are no different.

Too bad the kryptonite didn't kill Davis to save us all the trouble with future debates.

[MetroGirl06]

Davis isn't exactly black or white like Clark. I think hes a good good guy in unfortunate circumstances. He's doing the best he can with what he ended up with. They might not be the best choices in our eyes, but what other option does the guy have?

And no, he can't remove himself from the people because that would be incovinient to the show's plot!

[BrianD]

Davis assumed, based in the pain he felt from the meteor rocks for about 5 seconds when he was a child, that kryptonite might kill him. He wasn't 100% sure he would die but he was very much aware of the fact that, if he came back from this one, he would become immune to death by kryptonite.

I don't see anything heroic about him. Tragic, yes, bot not heroic. I don't think he's a hero or a martyr because he knew there were chances that he would come back from that chamber and become an even bigger threat. Entering a suicidal chamber knowing you can survive is not a sacrifice, is just playing with your chances.

We don't know much about Davis' background either, just that Lionel Luthor discarded him five days after he found him. So we don't know if his choice of being a paramedic is purely altruistic, if he was moved by guilt or just a way to cover the trail of carnage he usually leaves behind. Just because he's handsome and has good intentions doesn't mean that what he's doing is right. If I were in his place, I would live like a hermit on top of a deserted mountain to narrow down the possiblity of killing someone. Yet Davis chose to live in a huge city, with lots of possible victims within reach 24/7.

So no, I don't think he's a hero. I don't pity him because his tragic story. He's a genetically ingeneerd killing machine and that's not going to change.

i agree with you. i dont know what these people are smoking in here lol. how can you say that Davis is more heroic than Clark and he's out there KILLING people. just because it seems noble of him that he's sacrificing himself in order to contain the beast that doesn't make him heroic. i think you all are getting the definition of heroism confused with the word "noble", which still isn't justifying what he has done. What he's doing is just plain wrong and theres nothing that you can do or say to change that.

Like someone else was saying, if Davis was smart, he'd have thought of moving himself somewhere across the world where he couldn't harm anyone. If not that then he could've went to clark for help. Clark "knows" many people who could come up with a solution. There's Kara, martian manhunter, justice league, not to mention some of the doctors who've helped in the past that could try and figure out a way to separate him from the beast....and o yea the phantom zone! You don't just say hmmmm....i think the best way to control this thing is to just kill innocent or bad people. and sacrificing yourself....it was more like making yourself stronger because you know cant die. If i was that strong and knew that my purpose was to kill everyone id be tryna figure out a way to suppress the beast or just leave earth or somethin.

[Davis Bloome]

You say Jack the Ripper couldn't stop himself from killing because he was a sicko who hated.

Davis is a sicko since he habitually hates bad guys and kills them, hides the bodies and won't take responsibility for his actions, Asks Chloe to be his fix to control himself and on and on with future spoilers. Yep, they are no different.

Too bad the kryptonite didn't kill Davis to save us all the trouble with future debates.He doesn't hate the bad guys, he just thinks it's a better option to kill bad guys instead of innocents. Well to be fair I'm sure he didn't care that much for the bad guys he killed, but it's not like he wanted to kill them, unlike Jack the Ripper. He felt he had no choice but to kill at least someone and criminals in his opinion were the best choice, otherwise innocent people would have died and who knows probably a lot more since Doomsday is a stronger creature. And Davis didn't force Chloe to stay with him, he gave her a choice. She chose to stay because she knew she loved Davis and because she did want to help him.

[Iluvgreen]

did you see all the people he buried!!!! That's not very heroic.

[Davis Bloome]

did you see all the people he buried!!!! That's not very heroic. Never said it was...

[dobby]

Davis IS Doomsday. Or, at the very least, Davis is fully aware of Doomsday's killing. He's Doomsday's conscience. So instead of making himself scarce, he is continuing working and living in a city. That's wrong and NOT HEROIC. On top of that, he decides who he is going to kill, and because he picks "criminals" that means he's someone to be admired? :rolleyes:

Overlooking the obvious of being a serial killer - did you guys see the field? - what if he's wrong about a victim? What if he kills someone who is completely innocent? I'm sure his arguments of trying to rid the world of scum to stop his murderous rage would really help the victim's families. And what level of criminal does he decide to kill? Ok - all the murderers, rapists, guys guilty of b&e and DUI. Do these people really deserve to die? Who made Davis judge and executioner? What if the people he killed were turning their lives around and being good citizens? But they were guilty once, right? So Davis says, they MUST die.

This is wrong and IMMORAL on so many levels, and I can't believe people here support Davis. He is nothing like Clark/Superman who believes in REDEMPTION and not EVER taking a life. Davis Bloome is not a hero, by any means. In fact, I would go as far to say that he is enabling his inner beast, with his lame justifications for MURDER.

[Amelie]

Davis kills people. That's not heroic. I don't care if they are criminals or bad people. To take human life in your hand and do what you wish with it is not right.

[Davis Bloome]

I never said Davis was a hero. But I did say that I find the act of self-sacrifice heroic. His intentions are noble, however good intentions can always end bad. Clark is the living proof of that.
And I guess it can happen that Davis picks his victims wrong, but by the looks of it he does his research first. That still doesn't make it morally right. I just don't think you can label Davis as a bad guy. He's stuck with something horrible and he's doing the best he can to prevent the loss of more innocent lives. And I already explained that putting himself in a deserted place where there's no one to kill for Doomsday wouldn't help as he would just become Doomsday who would just escape from that deserted place. The only solution is to put him in a place where he at no cost can escape from, and how are you going to find such a place.

[Tompouce]

I understand what you mean Davis Bloome (lol, you have not another name, it is so strange like this !)but at the end, Davis is Doomsday whatever we can say. He tries to die because he can't stand anymore this situation. It matters, of course.
But he is here to eradicate the planet, he chose to kill people to stop the beast. He can't find a good way. This is his nature. Clark is the opposite. Whatever he tries, it is always good, bright, shinny, living. You speak about Day and Night, you know what I mean ? And anyway, Clark is THE HERO WE NEED. Nobody can be better than him. NOBODY lol

[Violet-Shadow]

More heroic than Clark? No.

[Davis Bloome]

I understand what you mean Davis Bloome (lol, you have not another name, it is so strange like this !)but at the end, Davis is Doomsday whatever we can say. He tries to die because he can't stand anymore this situation. It matters, of course.
But he is here to eradicate the planet, he chose to kill people to stop the beast. He can't find a good way. This is his nature. Clark is the opposite. Whatever he tries, it is always good, bright, shinny, living. You speak about Day and Night, you know what I mean ? And anyway, Clark is THE HERO WE NEED. Nobody can be better than him. NOBODY lol

Yeah original nick I got for myself here, huhum... lol it almost feels like I'm defending myself here... But don't worry I'm not that arrogant lol. Anyway back on topic. Clark's heroics... About that. Just a question if you allow me to quote myself from earlier:


But lets talk about Clark heroics. I mean before Davis became indestructible he was surely a lot more vulnerable than Clark and Clark except for the Kryptonite is as good as invulnerable. So it's not like he is risking his life constantly in order to save people. There is no doubt that Clark is very noble in what he does. If he wasn't he would still have his powers watching people die on TV. But he gives what time he has on saving people and that is certainly noble, but is it so heroic knowing that he is practically invincible? Just asking others opinions so we can see if we can compare if Davis is not as heroic as Clark.

[costas22]

But he gives what time he has on saving people and that is certainly noble, but is it so heroic knowing that he is practically invincible? Just asking others opinions so we can see if we can compare if Davis is not as heroic as Clark. <!-- / message -->

There have been times when Clark has put his life on the line.Mortal and Hidden are two examples.Leech is another one.He had lost his powers but he still tried to stop the boy who had them.And of course,this year he went to save Chloe in Odyssey without his powers and ended up getting killed.Davis did try to do something heroic at the end,but overall we can't compare.They had a different true nature to begin with.

[Tompouce]

There have been times when Clark has put his life on the line.Mortal and Hidden are two examples.Leech is another one.He had lost his powers but he still tried to stop the boy who had them.And of course,this year he went to save Chloe in Odyssey without his powers and ended up getting killed.Davis did try to do something heroic at the end,but overall we can't compare.They had a different true nature to begin with.
Yes and above all, Clark is deeply good and does everything he can to make the world better. It is not just about his powers, it is about his heart. Look, in bulletproof, he didn't use a lot his powers, he used his ideas, values, behaviour to help Danny on the way of redemption. There are few people like this in the world, they exist. And some of them are kind of heroes. They change the world. Can you imagine what they could do with Clark's powers ?;)
I would say like Lana, Chloe,...: Clark, the world needs you (it is in case of someone doesn't know it yet:lol:);)

[Davis Bloome]

Yeah true, there have been several moments that Clark tried to save his friends, but that I would call friendship though it is heroic too And when he wanted his powers back that was his responsibility. I mean is it Davis responsibility to self-sacrifice himself? To a certain degree yes, but it's not like he asked to become Doomsday. He never wanted anything to do with it. He is responsible for the people he has killed as himself though so I think that by 'trying to' sacrifice he is taking responsibility for it. It's redemption, which I find noble.

[costas22]

Yeah true, there have been several moments that Clark tried to save his friends, but that I would call friendship though it is heroic too And when he wanted his powers back that was his responsibility. I mean is it Davis responsibility to self-sacrifice himself? To a certain degree yes, but it's not like he asked to become Doomsday. He never wanted anything to do with it. He is responsible for the people he has killed as himself though so I think that by 'trying to' sacrifice he is taking responsibility for it. It's redemption, which I find noble.

The problem that Davis(not you,the other one,lol) has,is that he is a facade.I think that Brainiac told him that he has no free will and he was right.So i wouldn't say it's his responsibility to self sacrifice himself.It's desparation.Davis is a tragic figure in Smallville.And as someone said today,even more tragic than Lex.Clark,while mortal,also tried saving the world,not just his friends.He got shot in Hidden for trying to stop the psycho from launching the missile.I will stick by my original stance.You can't compare the two.Clark tried to do that and Davis(not you,the other one,lol) himself told him that they had different natures.

[Davis Bloome]

Well there's no doubt that Clark is indeed heroic. Sometimes I just don't know that as superman with his superpowers he is as heroic as some people portray him as. For me Smallville is interesting for the evolution of the characters. I'm not that interested in his actions as Superman, cause I don't find them that heroic since like I said is practically invincible. But you're right Clark has been heroic when he wasn't invincible. So that does prove that he is a hero. But more as 'Clark' than as Superman if you get what I mean.

[costas22]

Well there's no doubt that Clark is indeed heroic. Sometimes I just don't know that as superman with his superpowers he is as heroic as some people portray him as. For me Smallville is interesting for the evolution of the characters. I'm not that interested in his actions as Superman, cause I don't find them that heroic since like I said is practically invincible. But you're right Clark has been heroic when he wasn't invincible. So that does prove that he is a hero. But more as 'Clark' than as Superman if you get what I mean.

Of course.I discussed this recently with a fellow poster.Clark's invincibility and code of ethics is what makes him less likeable compared to Batman.He is not as close to the regular person as Batman is.And you know what's weird?In Visage at Season 2 and after he found out that Whitney died in battle,he even questioned himself whether he could be as heroic without his powers.

[Davis Bloome]

Yeah, didn't he question himself too, can't come up with the name of the episode, but the one where he dressed up as a cop?

[costas22]

From this season?Bulletproof.But he was in Lana mode then.He was questioning whether he could be the RBB and have Lana at the same time.Highly heroic!

[SnowBird]

He doesn't hate the bad guys, he just thinks it's a better option to kill bad guys instead of innocents. Well to be fair I'm sure he didn't care that much for the bad guys he killed, but it's not like he wanted to kill them, unlike Jack the Ripper. He felt he had no choice but to kill at least someone and criminals in his opinion were the best choice, otherwise innocent people would have died and who knows probably a lot more since Doomsday is a stronger creature. And Davis didn't force Chloe to stay with him, he gave her a choice. She chose to stay because she knew she loved Davis and because she did want to help him.

How do you know Davis doesn't hate bad guys? I think he would have to have a great dislike for a person he could so easily murder. So Davis only picks bad guys. What about the innocent children, and spouces that will be left behind? Maybe with the hard times, a man is without a job and is desperate to feed his family so he robs a convenience store. Davis sees him do it and kills him because he thinks he is a bad person and the world would be better off without him. Will this man's children and wife be better off without him? Davis has become judge, jury and executioner, and that is wrong, wrong, wrong no matter how you try to justify and sugar coat Davis' actions.

By the way on the news, a man who was desperate, robbed a convenience store with his young daughter by his side because he lost his job and couldn't feed his family. He got all of $20. It's a good thing Davis wasn't waiting for him outside.

Chloe stayed with Davis to protect Clark first and foremost. Caring for Davis is a far second.

[jpfort1957]

Davis/DD transformed and killed the man Lionel sent to drop Davis off after being on earth 5 days. There are countless disappearances and unexplained deaths surrounding the homes Davis has been bounced around to. Killing himself now is not heroic at all. He's just tried of the hiding, lies, and sorrow he has dished out. Please kill him Clark!!!!!

[wolverine316]

In a way, I think Davis, at this point, is a bigger hero than Clark is. It depends on your definition of a few concepts and your feelings on nautre/nuture, but consider this:

* Clark was destined by his nature to save the world. Davis was destined by his nature to destroy it.

* Clark was born to be a hero, Davis a beast.

* Clark was raised by a loving family and taught heroic, self-sacrificing values. Davis was put in a cage, abandoned on the street, and shuttled around foster homes.

*Clark has been continually reinforced to believe in himself by those who know of his deeds. Davis reads about the latest Doomsday murder in the paper and slouches into church.

AND YET, Davis himself has turned out to be a pretty good and noble guy, not a mindless killing machine. Doomsday may have been put into his DNA, but Davis really tries to make his life worthwhile for humanity. Despite his upbringing he becomes a paramedic to help people. When the beast comes out he tries to stop it, and always feels terrible about what happens, seeking religious answers and forgiveness. And when he can't control it, he tries to steer it in a vigilante direction instead of harming the innocent.

Then, when it becomes clear to him he was destined to destroy the savior of the world, his answer is-- assisted suicide to kill himself because he feels the world is safer if he sacrifices himself.

I'm sorry, but that's freakin' heroic. Davis wasn't handed any of the things Clark was either by nature or by environment. And yet, he continually tries to find a way out of his destiny so he can be who he is: a really decent guy who wants to help people. When he finds out he can't, he seeks to end his own life for the good of us all.

Yes, I know what Doomsday is destined to be. But Davis Bloom is a heck of a good fella. The way it has all been portrayed it really ISN'T his fault, not at all. And he struggles heroically against what Tess would tell him he can't fight.

When Davis loses his battle, that's when the world will be in trouble. Clark is indeed a hero, but he's had a lot of help, and he's also just a johnny-come-lately to a fight another hero has been waging all his life.

So far in the life of Doomsday the biggest enemy of Doomsday has been Davis Bloom.


You have got to be frickin kidding me!!

[Davis Bloome]

How do you know Davis doesn't hate bad guys? I think he would have to have a great dislike for a person he could so easily murder. So Davis only picks bad guys. What about the innocent children, and spouces that will be left behind? Maybe with the hard times, a man is without a job and is desperate to feed his family so he robs a convenience store. Davis sees him do it and kills him because he thinks he is a bad person and the world would be better off without him. Will this man's children and wife be better off without him? Davis has become judge, jury and executioner, and that is wrong, wrong, wrong no matter how you try to justify and sugar coat Davis' actions.

By the way on the news, a man who was desperate, robbed a convenience store with his young daughter by his side because he lost his job and couldn't feed his family. He got all of $20. It's a good thing Davis wasn't waiting for him outside.

Chloe stayed with Davis to protect Clark first and foremost. Caring for Davis is a far second.Yes of course it's wrong, but the man has hardly a choice and your comparison with Davis and Jack the Ripper was just irrational. I never justified the man's actions. He still feels guilty about it, where is there any sign that he hates the ones he killed. Granted he tried to justify himself by saying they were criminals only because he is desperate and feels torned apart by the murders. You think Jack the Ripper tried to kill himself because he wanted to stop the murders. No unlike Davis he had a choice.

[rehana/chole]

great every body a hero except clark, we got lana , olli,jl team, pete, jimmy even clohe some claim an next week we get lois as stileto would u look at that every body a hero except bda clark it annoying

[Maria1023]

I am not saying that Davis is heroic, but he did try to make a selfless sacrifice. I fin it almost laughable that some people believe that Davis has a choice to kill when it was explained, and by Davis himself, that he cannot stop this creature from emerging. This creature has its own bloodlust that cannot be satisfied so he tried to do the honorable thing and kill the creature inside him.
Since stopping the creature from emerging seemed to be an impossibility his less evil solution was to get rid of the criminals in the city rather than the innocents. He did not think that going into the kryptonite bath would make him stronger, he honestly thought that he would die. He wanted to keep the world safe from himself and that backfired. Lets not forget that he does not find out who he truly is until Tess tells him. Anyway, I choose to see Davis as a good man trapped by a tragic destiny.

[Herod]

Yes. Undoubtedly Davis is much more heroic than Clark Kent. [mod edit]

[actaeon]

Davis sometimes shows he has a sense of decency. That's not nearly enough to make him a hero!

He has a guilty conscience. That's better than him not having a conscience at all, of course. But it doesn't make him a good guy. He tries (unsuccessfully) to stop killing, and he channels his murderous impulses against people who "deserve it"... like petty criminals(?) Sometimes, but not always.

He cries out for help. That's better than nothing... but is it really much better than the mass murderer who writes "please stop me" on the walls, with his victims' blood?

On the downside, Davis deliberately puts the woman he loves, the woman who tries to help him-- Chloe-- in danger by hanging around in Metropolis. He was phone-stalking her... on her wedding day!

And he went to great lengths to discredit Jimmy and put everyone off the track, when Jimmy discovered the truth about him & his killing sprees.

Those aren't the actions of a good guy.

Plus, Davis isn't really even a person. He's an alien construct, designed expressly to exterminate life. That he-- it-- sort of developed a conscience at all is just an aberration.

[Davis Bloome]

On the downside, Davis deliberately puts the woman he loves, the woman who tries to help him-- Chloe-- in danger by hanging around in Metropolis. He was phone-stalking her... on her wedding day!

And he went to great lengths to discredit Jimmy and put everyone off the track, when Jimmy discovered the truth about him & his killing sprees.Well true enough Davis has acted impulsive and on his own selfish feelings, but aren't we all selfish sometimes regarding how we feel to the ones we love? Besides Metropolis was his home so it's not like he deliberately stayed there just for Chloe. And about Jimmy he wasn't trying to descredit Jimmy. He just didn't want others to know about the murders. Jimmy was just an unfortunate witness.

[Dyanara]

Is Davis more heroic? I'd say not...is he more of a man than Clark that would be a hecks yeah! Then again even Shelby is more of a man than Clark is.

[Davis Bloome]

Is Davis more heroic? I'd say not...is he more of a man than Clark that would be a hecks yeah! Then again even Shelby is more of a man than Clark is.
Lol why do I get the feeling you're not much of Clark fan...

[chlo-el]

great every body a hero except clark, we got lana , olli,jl team, pete, jimmy even clohe some claim an next week we get lois as stileto would u look at that every body a hero except bda clark it annoying

I thought Clark was very heroic in his ep.

[Davis Bloome]

I do think Clark at one point was being a hypocrite. He yells to Davis (with good intentions) "Davis, don't be a martyr!". How many times has it been that Clark has become the martyr and by his own will?

[SnowBird]

Yes of course it's wrong, but the man has hardly a choice and your comparison with Davis and Jack the Ripper was just irrational. I never justified the man's actions. He still feels guilty about it, where is there any sign that he hates the ones he killed. Granted he tried to justify himself by saying they were criminals only because he is desperate and feels torned apart by the murders. You think Jack the Ripper tried to kill himself because he wanted to stop the murders. No unlike Davis he had a choice.

I'm not irrational because I have a different view of Davis.

I don't think you are suppose insult another person because you don't agree with them, according to the KS rules.

[Davis Bloome]

Well if you want to report me, sure... I apologize. I just think it's exaggerated to compare Davis to Jack the Ripper... Just because they're both murderers doesn't make them the same.

[chlo-el]

I do think Clark at one point was being a hypocrite. He yells to Davis (with good intentions) "Davis, don't be a martyr!". How many times has it been that Clark has become the martyr and by his own will?

Yeah, well clark is always been a hypacrit, but I din't mind it in this ep, because he was trying to save Davis and wanted to find another way. That was very heroic too me.

[Davis Bloome]

Well yeah I agree, like I said he said it with best intentions. That's the thing with Clark, he always tries to find the good in people... Sadly it doesn't work that way...

[Alania]

You say Jack the Ripper couldn't stop himself from killing because he was a sicko who hated.

Davis is a sicko since he habitually hates bad guys and kills them, hides the bodies and won't take responsibility for his actions, Asks Chloe to be his fix to control himself and on and on with future spoilers. Yep, they are no different.

Too bad the kryptonite didn't kill Davis to save us all the trouble with future debates.

Could not agree more with all that.


great every body a hero except clark, we got lana , olli,jl team, pete, jimmy even clohe some claim an next week we get lois as stileto would u look at that every body a hero except bda clark it annoying

I thought calling Clark a bda:mad: was against the rules....

[topping82]

In a way, I think Davis, at this point, is a bigger hero than Clark is. It depends on your definition of a few concepts and your feelings on nautre/nuture, but consider this:

* Clark was destined by his nature to save the world. Davis was destined by his nature to destroy it.

* Clark was born to be a hero, Davis a beast.

* Clark was raised by a loving family and taught heroic, self-sacrificing values. Davis was put in a cage, abandoned on the street, and shuttled around foster homes.

*Clark has been continually reinforced to believe in himself by those who know of his deeds. Davis reads about the latest Doomsday murder in the paper and slouches into church.

AND YET, Davis himself has turned out to be a pretty good and noble guy, not a mindless killing machine. Doomsday may have been put into his DNA, but Davis really tries to make his life worthwhile for humanity. Despite his upbringing he becomes a paramedic to help people. When the beast comes out he tries to stop it, and always feels terrible about what happens, seeking religious answers and forgiveness. And when he can't control it, he tries to steer it in a vigilante direction instead of harming the innocent.

Then, when it becomes clear to him he was destined to destroy the savior of the world, his answer is-- assisted suicide to kill himself because he feels the world is safer if he sacrifices himself.

I'm sorry, but that's freakin' heroic. Davis wasn't handed any of the things Clark was either by nature or by environment. And yet, he continually tries to find a way out of his destiny so he can be who he is: a really decent guy who wants to help people. When he finds out he can't, he seeks to end his own life for the good of us all.

Yes, I know what Doomsday is destined to be. But Davis Bloom is a heck of a good fella. The way it has all been portrayed it really ISN'T his fault, not at all. And he struggles heroically against what Tess would tell him he can't fight.

When Davis loses his battle, that's when the world will be in trouble. Clark is indeed a hero, but he's had a lot of help, and he's also just a johnny-come-lately to a fight another hero has been waging all his life.

So far in the life of Doomsday the biggest enemy of Doomsday has been Davis Bloom.

I totally agree! And I had to bold that last part as I think it's very profound. I'm still hoping for a little bit of eucatastrophe myself in the end though. I hope Davis is right, and there is something more powerful than "human nature." Love maybe? I hope love and his humanity conquer evil in the end.

[Jack-El49]

Well if you want to report me, sure... I apologize. I just think it's exaggerated to compare Davis to Jack the Ripper... Just because they're both murderers doesn't make them the same.

Frankly, since no one knows who Jack the Ripper actually was, no one knew what his motivation was, nor knew if he was remorseful after the fact would imply that you saying any comparison is incorrect. They may very well be the same or may be very different.

The only difference I can tell is that Jack the Ripper wrote letters to Scotland Yard, taunting them to catch him. I don't know if Davis can write. ;)

[SnowBird]

Well if you want to report me, sure... I apologize. I just think it's exaggerated to compare Davis to Jack the Ripper... Just because they're both murderers doesn't make them the same.

I accept your apology.

My choice of a serial killer to compare Davis to wasn't randomly chosen. In the Smallville universe Jack the Ripper was a logical choice. We'll see how exaggerated my comparison of Jack the Ripper is to Davis.

Last season the episode Cure was the story of a neurosurgeon played by Dean Cain. He was hired by Lex to operate on the meteor infected healing them. I can't remember his name but his initials were CK on his hankerchief. Some of the women he was suppose to heal ended up on the operating table where he took internal body parts to use for his girlfriend with the bee girl being the last.

Chloe wanted to be healed from her meteor infection so she contacted the doctor to operate on her. He wanted her heart and she called him a Jack the Ripper wanna be. He replied that he was Jack the Ripper. (Lex said he had been many people over the centuries.)

Comparisons of Davis and Jack the Ripper:

1) Both are immortal
2) Both think they are killing to save a person(s)
3) Both have put Chloe in danger of being killed.
4) Both have used Chloe for selfish reasons.
5) Clark saved Chloe from the doctor. He may again from Davis/DD(?)
6) Dr. CK/Jack the Ripper was taken by Martian Manhunter to protect humanity.
I predict Davis turned Doomsday will be taken somewhere to protect humanity.

I don't think that I'm that far off as a comparison. What do you think?

[Jack-El49]

I accept your apology.

My choice of a serial killer to compare Davis to wasn't randomly chosen. In the Smallville universe Jack the Ripper was a logical choice. We'll see how exaggerated my comparison of Jack the Ripper is to Davis.

Last season the episode Cure was the story of a neurosurgeon played by Dean Cain. He was hired by Lex to operate on the meteor infected healing them. I can't remember his name but his initials were CK on his hankerchief. Some of the women he was suppose to heal ended up on the operating table where he took internal body parts to use for his girlfriend with the bee girl being the last.

Chloe wanted to be healed from her meteor infection so she contacted the doctor to operate on her. He wanted her heart and she called him a Jack the Ripper wanna be. He replied that he was Jack the Ripper. (Lex said he had been many people over the centuries.)

Comparisons of Davis and Jack the Ripper:

1) Both are immortal
2) Both think they are killing to save a person(s)
3) Both have put Chloe in danger of being killed.
4) Both have used Chloe for selfish reasons.
5) Clark saved Chloe from the doctor. He may again from Davis/DD(?)
6) Dr. CK/Jack the Ripper was taken by Martian Manhunter to protect humanity.
I predict Davis turned Doomsday will be taken somewhere to protect humanity.

I don't think that I'm that far off as a comparison. What do you think?

Curtis Knox was his name but it was supposedly the character Vandal Savage from the comics.

[SnowBird]

Curtis Knox was his name but it was supposedly the character Vandal Savage from the comics.

Thanks for the info. I looked Savage up and he fits the profile of Knox. I don't know much about the comic book world so I like to learn about a character that sounds interesting.

[Dyanara]

Lol why do I get the feeling you're not much of Clark fan...

I used to love Clark, I swear I did; but seriously how can you root for a guy like this?

[paolinki25]

I honestly don't get why they're trying to do here. As far as I know, Doomsday is a freaking monster who doesn't give a crap about humans. So, I take that Doomsday possessed Davis's body? Because I don't like this shenanigan about Doomsday having romantic feelings for a human being and whatnot.

[devilneedsaride]

I think you raise a good point. The biggest issue I see with calling Davis "heroic" is how long it took him to seek help. The second he realized he couldn't control the beast or kill himself, he needed to turn himself in to Chloe or any authority he reasonably thought could control him and beg her/them to do something about it. He did the right thing eventually, but there are more than a few dead bodies caught up in his wake. However, I think how he handled it was understandable from a human standpoint, and his attempt at making the ultimate sacrifice was certainly very noble, but I'd expect more from a hero.

He really isn't a villain though, and at this point I'd put him a good rank or two above your average Joe. If they're setting us up for Clark killing him in the end, they're doing a terrible job at letting Clark come out of this not looking like a killer.

[Davis Bloome]

People already say going to Chloe now at the end of the episode puts her in danger, so that is maybe one of the reasons he didn't reach to her before. Also I think Davis probably thought that going to the authorities would solve nothing. Seeing that not even shooting him down could have helped and he knew that no cell would be able to keep him captivated.

[Jaderoyale]

I can only see Davis as "heroic" for the fact he was willing to take his own life in the attempt to stop becoming Doomsday and in the end killing Clark. Thats it. Thats the only heroic thing hes done, he's been murdering people since his flashback in Turbulence.

[devilneedsaride]

People already say going to Chloe now at the end of the episode puts her in danger, so that is maybe one of the reasons he didn't reach to her before. Also I think Davis probably thought that going to the authorities would solve nothing. Seeing that not even shooting him down could have helped and he knew that no cell would be able to keep him captivated.

Touché.

Seeing as he didn't know she deactivated his Mr. Hyde until Turbulence, he had good reason to believe he could go nuts and kill her at the drop of a hat. I'll accept not wanting to accidentally murder the woman you love as a reason for trying to control it on your own first. Actually, as reasons go, that's a pretty freaking good one.

I agree with you about the authorities bit, btw. If he had told them they would just have POed the inner beast and many GOOD guys, cops etc, would have died. Does he know about Luthorcorp? Because that would be my next thought. Although then he couldn't be sure they wouldn't use him for evil or some such.

Dang. Now I really hope they don't have Clark kill him.

[scifigirl]

I think that this thread is a sad testament to how poorly Clark has been written.

[Krypto_marcus]

In a way, I think Davis, at this point, is a bigger hero than Clark is. It depends on your definition of a few concepts and your feelings on nautre/nuture, but consider this:

* Clark was destined by his nature to save the world. Davis was destined by his nature to destroy it.

* Clark was born to be a hero, Davis a beast.

* Clark was raised by a loving family and taught heroic, self-sacrificing values. Davis was put in a cage, abandoned on the street, and shuttled around foster homes.

*Clark has been continually reinforced to believe in himself by those who know of his deeds. Davis reads about the latest Doomsday murder in the paper and slouches into church.

AND YET, Davis himself has turned out to be a pretty good and noble guy, not a mindless killing machine. Doomsday may have been put into his DNA, but Davis really tries to make his life worthwhile for humanity. Despite his upbringing he becomes a paramedic to help people. When the beast comes out he tries to stop it, and always feels terrible about what happens, seeking religious answers and forgiveness. And when he can't control it, he tries to steer it in a vigilante direction instead of harming the innocent.

Then, when it becomes clear to him he was destined to destroy the savior of the world, his answer is-- assisted suicide to kill himself because he feels the world is safer if he sacrifices himself.

I'm sorry, but that's freakin' heroic. Davis wasn't handed any of the things Clark was either by nature or by environment. And yet, he continually tries to find a way out of his destiny so he can be who he is: a really decent guy who wants to help people. When he finds out he can't, he seeks to end his own life for the good of us all.

Yes, I know what Doomsday is destined to be. But Davis Bloom is a heck of a good fella. The way it has all been portrayed it really ISN'T his fault, not at all. And he struggles heroically against what Tess would tell him he can't fight.

When Davis loses his battle, that's when the world will be in trouble. Clark is indeed a hero, but he's had a lot of help, and he's also just a johnny-come-lately to a fight another hero has been waging all his life.

So far in the life of Doomsday the biggest enemy of Doomsday has been Davis Bloom.

Clark Kent save lives every day, Davis Bloome does the opposite. Sorry, but NO.

Though, I think Davis is a good man, he's been trying to fight this monster inside of him and he even wanted to die because he didn't want to hurt anymore people. Davis tried to be good but I would never go as far as calling him a Hero.

[saltyweeks]

nice! there seem to be more people than i thought who may not feel that Davis is a "hero" but at least feel has done things that fall into either the noble or decent or understandable categories-- although i feel stronger i like that way better than the "he's just a killer" sentiment.

i was a little unhappy with the loved it/hated it thread post trends, but i'm glad i did this one, some good thoughts on all sides.

Davis Bloom (the poster) thanks for making a lot of my points for me. i like your train of thought! i didn't see any of your comments as out of line, BTW-- people call me irrational all the time (not to mention apparently wondering what i've been smoking...hee, hee...).

jeff

----- Added 3 Minutes later -----


I used to love Clark, I swear I did; but seriously how can you root for a guy like this?

Dyanara-- i feel about Clark like I feel about Chloe (though Chloe is my favorite character, no doubt). Clark is very flawed. But I tend to think that makes him more realistic and interesting...and I like it when we can't absolutely predict what a character will do based on past decisions that are good AND bad.

I do get that some folks who just want SUPERMAN don't like this. But I think it adds to the show to see Clark and Chloe (and Davis...and, oh wow, Lex in years past) so LOST in their own mistakes at times.

[Sports72Xtrm]

I guess his self sacrifice was a little heroic but I don't know how that would in anyway belittle Clark's heroism who is actually trying to save him as well. If Clark is forced to kill Doomsday well... he had to do what was for the greater good. But at least I'm proud of Clark for actually trying to save Davis which is more then some people believe he deserves.

[SnowBird]

I guess his self sacrifice was a little heroic but I don't know how that would in anyway belittle Clark's heroism who is actually trying to save him as well. If Clark is forced to kill Doomsday well... he had to do what was for the greater good. But at least I'm proud of Clark for actually trying to save Davis which is more then some people believe he deserves.

I'm proud of Clark as well.

[Inkpen23]

In a way, I think Davis, at this point, is a bigger hero than Clark is. It depends on your definition of a few concepts and your feelings on nautre/nuture, but consider this:

* Clark was destined by his nature to save the world. Davis was destined by his nature to destroy it.

* Clark was born to be a hero, Davis a beast.

* Clark was raised by a loving family and taught heroic, self-sacrificing values. Davis was put in a cage, abandoned on the street, and shuttled around foster homes.

*Clark has been continually reinforced to believe in himself by those who know of his deeds. Davis reads about the latest Doomsday murder in the paper and slouches into church.

AND YET, Davis himself has turned out to be a pretty good and noble guy, not a mindless killing machine. Doomsday may have been put into his DNA, but Davis really tries to make his life worthwhile for humanity. Despite his upbringing he becomes a paramedic to help people. When the beast comes out he tries to stop it, and always feels terrible about what happens, seeking religious answers and forgiveness. And when he can't control it, he tries to steer it in a vigilante direction instead of harming the innocent.

Then, when it becomes clear to him he was destined to destroy the savior of the world, his answer is-- assisted suicide to kill himself because he feels the world is safer if he sacrifices himself.

I'm sorry, but that's freakin' heroic. Davis wasn't handed any of the things Clark was either by nature or by environment. And yet, he continually tries to find a way out of his destiny so he can be who he is: a really decent guy who wants to help people. When he finds out he can't, he seeks to end his own life for the good of us all.

Yes, I know what Doomsday is destined to be. But Davis Bloom is a heck of a good fella. The way it has all been portrayed it really ISN'T his fault, not at all. And he struggles heroically against what Tess would tell him he can't fight.

When Davis loses his battle, that's when the world will be in trouble. Clark is indeed a hero, but he's had a lot of help, and he's also just a johnny-come-lately to a fight another hero has been waging all his life.

So far in the life of Doomsday the biggest enemy of Doomsday has been Davis Bloom.

I couldn't agree more. Bravo, well said. :D

[VagrantDream]

In a way, I think Davis, at this point, is a bigger hero than Clark is. It depends on your definition of a few concepts and your feelings on nautre/nuture, but consider this:

* Clark was destined by his nature to save the world. Davis was destined by his nature to destroy it.

* Clark was born to be a hero, Davis a beast.

* Clark was raised by a loving family and taught heroic, self-sacrificing values. Davis was put in a cage, abandoned on the street, and shuttled around foster homes.

*Clark has been continually reinforced to believe in himself by those who know of his deeds. Davis reads about the latest Doomsday murder in the paper and slouches into church.

AND YET, Davis himself has turned out to be a pretty good and noble guy, not a mindless killing machine. Doomsday may have been put into his DNA, but Davis really tries to make his life worthwhile for humanity. Despite his upbringing he becomes a paramedic to help people. When the beast comes out he tries to stop it, and always feels terrible about what happens, seeking religious answers and forgiveness. And when he can't control it, he tries to steer it in a vigilante direction instead of harming the innocent.

Then, when it becomes clear to him he was destined to destroy the savior of the world, his answer is-- assisted suicide to kill himself because he feels the world is safer if he sacrifices himself.

I'm sorry, but that's freakin' heroic. Davis wasn't handed any of the things Clark was either by nature or by environment. And yet, he continually tries to find a way out of his destiny so he can be who he is: a really decent guy who wants to help people. When he finds out he can't, he seeks to end his own life for the good of us all.

Yes, I know what Doomsday is destined to be. But Davis Bloom is a heck of a good fella. The way it has all been portrayed it really ISN'T his fault, not at all. And he struggles heroically against what Tess would tell him he can't fight.

When Davis loses his battle, that's when the world will be in trouble. Clark is indeed a hero, but he's had a lot of help, and he's also just a johnny-come-lately to a fight another hero has been waging all his life.

So far in the life of Doomsday the biggest enemy of Doomsday has been Davis Bloom.

I agree with Inkpen. This is so perfectly stated. May I frame it please?
Clark has repeatedly over the seasons, been able to give up being a superhero (lets face it 80% of the time over some romantic subplot). The thing with Davis is he doesn't have that choice, and he has proven himself willing to give everything up so that he won't.

[Dyanara]

jeff

----- Added 3 Minutes later -----



Dyanara-- i feel about Clark like I feel about Chloe (though Chloe is my favorite character, no doubt). Clark is very flawed. But I tend to think that makes him more realistic and interesting...and I like it when we can't absolutely predict what a character will do based on past decisions that are good AND bad.

I do get that some folks who just want SUPERMAN don't like this. But I think it adds to the show to see Clark and Chloe (and Davis...and, oh wow, Lex in years past) so LOST in their own mistakes at times.

I dont want just Superman, Im not into the comics and I only first saw the movies about 3years ago. But Clark is flawed as well as stupid and at certain times a pansy.

[Tompouce]

I guess his self sacrifice was a little heroic but I don't know how that would in anyway belittle Clark's heroism who is actually trying to save him as well. If Clark is forced to kill Doomsday well... he had to do what was for the greater good. But at least I'm proud of Clark for actually trying to save Davis which is more then some people believe he deserves.
That is exactly which makes the difference between Clark and the rest of the world lol. He tries. He always think something better, a second chance could be. That is one of the main permanent feature of the man. That is why he is the hero we need. The hero who is the symbol of Hope. He trusts mankind. Whatever happens.
No one can be his equal on this way. And as Snowbird said it I am proud of him especially for this. To me, it is the most important characteristic of Superman. That is why I watch SV and I am here;)

[actaeon]

As for Davis' attempted self-sacrifice making him noble, I wonder. What makes him different from the guy who murders a bunch of random people-- because the voices in his head tell him to do it or whatever-- and then turns the gun on himself? Is that guy noble too?

Davis can't help himself, (so he says, anyway...) so that makes him less blameworthy. But the same holds true for the nut job who kills because he's following the voices in his head.

So I figure Davis is about as heroic and as noble as a criminally insane mass murderer.


But then of course Davis suffers. Very visibly, he is tormented by his conscience. This makes him sympathetic. It does not make him noble. There is a good deal of emotional appeal in this handsome man sobbing over what he has done, begging soft sympathetic Chloe to help him. As far as I'm concerned, it's sympathy for the devil.

I also wonder why it is, that while Davis cannot control his actions as Dooms, when he reverts back, Davis cleans up the mess and conceals the evidence. It's not Dooms who drives the bodies out to a field in Smallville and buries them. It wasn't Dooms who injected Jimmy with drugs to discredit the one witness to murder. Davis has been deliberately covering for Dooms. Why is that, I wonder?

Why is it that Davis begged Chloe to stay with him in the basement, claiming that if she's around, he won't turn into Doomsday? Because it's a lie. He did turn into Doomsday with her right next to him, in "Infamous". He would have killed her too, if the timeline hadn't been reset in the nick of time.

Methinks Davis is not as innocent as he pretends.

[Tompouce]

Actaeon, I say since the beginning that Davis (and not Doomsday) is shifty. I change a little my mind the last 2 epi he was in because he really tried to be better. But I still find him weird and manipulative. I agree with you

[SnowBird]

I agree with Inkpen. This is so perfectly stated. May I frame it please?
Clark has repeatedly over the seasons, been able to give up being a superhero (lets face it 80% of the time over some romantic subplot). The thing with Davis is he doesn't have that choice, and he has proven himself willing to give everything up so that he won't.

Clark is the best hero the world has. He saved all of Smallville from being wiped off the planet. He saved the world from Zod. He has saved every main character on SV multiple times. He even tried to save Davis from Chloe giving him a green K shower. He will become Superman and save the world once again from Doomsday. He may even save the world from Doomsday as Clark. What in the world does Clark have to do to prove he is a hero of the best kind?

Davis might not have a choice as to what he is but he does have a choice as to where he lives and living in a metropolitan area where he can pick and choose who he is going to kill is self serving and is no hero in my book.

[ClLaLeChFAN01]

The thing that Clark and Davis have in common is that they are/were trying to fight against their destiny. For years Clark didnt want to be a symbol of hope, he just wanted to have a normal life with Lana in Smallville and save people on the side. Clark now realizes that he cant have that life espically when he cant go near Lana. However, He is now going down the road that he is destined for.

Davis is to trying to fight against he destiny of killing Clark and people on planet earth. He cant and wont succeed because he is destined to such a thing. Plus it doesnt help that he was created for such a task. Ill give props for Davis to fight the monster within but sooner than later the monster will win and there will be no more Davis Bloom just DOOMSDAY.

[TOMophilus]

It sickens me when a mass murderer is even remotely compared to Clark, let alone regarded as heroic... :mad:

[Tompouce]

[quote=SnowBird;4703004]Clark is the best hero the world has. He saved all of Smallville from being wiped off the planet. He saved the world from Zod. He has saved every main character on SV multiple times. He even tried to save Davis from Chloe giving him a green K shower. He will become Superman and save the world once again from Doomsday. He may even save the world from Doomsday as Clark. What in the world does Clark have to do to prove he is a hero of the best kind?
quote]
CLAP, CLAP, CLAP:)

[saltyweeks]

It sickens me when a mass murderer is even remotely compared to Clark, let alone regarded as heroic... :mad:

but i don't think that's what i'm doing. i don't think Davis Bloom has ever killed anyone. Doomsday has. he has an entirely separate entity built into him, which also makes him unfitting for the insane murder who turns the gun on himself analogy mentioned.

from what i have seen, Davis wouldn't kill anybody. i'd never compare Doomsday to Clark.

i wonder what you would think of Clark if he was affected by a type of kryptonite like the red k, but worse-- turned him into a killing monster. when he was no longer affected, would Clark be to blame for his actions? would the unaffected Clark "sicken" you?

or would he still be the same Clark, just with a huge problem to deal with, which he would try and find a heroic way out of?

[SnowBird]

but i don't think that's what i'm doing. i don't think Davis Bloom has ever killed anyone. Doomsday has.

It was Davis that broke the man's neck in the elevator when Jimmy saw him.

[Mickey_Bickey]

but i don't think that's what i'm doing. i don't think Davis Bloom has ever killed anyone. Doomsday has. he has an entirely separate entity built into him, which also makes him unfitting for the insane murder who turns the gun on himself analogy mentioned.

from what i have seen, Davis wouldn't kill anybody. i'd never compare Doomsday to Clark.

i wonder what you would think of Clark if he was affected by a type of kryptonite like the red k, but worse-- turned him into a killing monster. when he was no longer affected, would Clark be to blame for his actions? would the unaffected Clark "sicken" you?

or would he still be the same Clark, just with a huge problem to deal with, which he would try and find a heroic way out of?

Linda Lake? Countless others in the corn field? That's Davis, and he's now killing to prevent himself from turning into the Beast. Regardless, Davis is Doomsday. They're one in the same, so yes he's killing people.

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----


[quote=SnowBird;4703004]Clark is the best hero the world has. He saved all of Smallville from being wiped off the planet. He saved the world from Zod. He has saved every main character on SV multiple times. He even tried to save Davis from Chloe giving him a green K shower. He will become Superman and save the world once again from Doomsday. He may even save the world from Doomsday as Clark. What in the world does Clark have to do to prove he is a hero of the best kind?
quote]
CLAP, CLAP, CLAP:)


Karine, you are right. Davis is no hero. He's a killer and shouldn't be compared to Superman unless it's to state he's the opposite of him.

[LoD]

Yep, and, worse, Davis rationalizes his murders based on a twisted, self-deluded form of utilitarianism. He kills based on fatalism: there is no redemption possible in his worldview, not for him, not for his victims. He doesn't prevent crime; he merely punishes the guilty. And on what basis? The recidivism rate of convicted criminals? That is Davis taking away more than the lives of his victims, that's him stealing their hope for salvation, too. For a supposedly religious man, this is doing more than stealing lives, this is tantamount to stealing souls. (And, frankly, this view makes him worse than Doomsday, who at least kills out of a relatively pure lust for death and carnage.)

To put it another way: If Davis were Luke Skywalker, he would've killed Vader. If he were Galadriel, he would've taken the ring. And, if he were Harry Potter, he would've used avada kedavra on Voldemort. That's not a hero.

Clark takes chances with the fate of the world by having the courage of his convictions. He (finally) understands that the ends do not justify the means and that the greatest good is defined by our actions not apart from them. He doesn't allow fear and panic (both of which motivate Davis) to motivate him. In the short-term, Clark looks weak,naive, even reckless. But that's because he acts according to principle, not pragmatism. If Davis trusted Clark, if he chose hope over despair, Clark might have saved him. Davis has enough free will to make that decision, but he doesn't.

And no matter how nutty the writing for the show gets, I feel these themes persevere and demonstrate why Clark became, as promised, the true hero of the show.

[petitemimi]

Saying that Clark was basically born a hero insinuating he had to make no effort, makes me wonder what I've been watching for the past 8 years.
I think comparing Davis with Clark is having an incredibly short memory among other things, like twisted morals. Clark has lived horrible things and just one example, he had 2 girlfriends dying violent deaths in his arms.

Clark has great powers and power corrupts. More than his physical powers, his strenght of character to do the right thing despite all that happened to him and despite the fact that it would be so easy for him to abuse his powers, makes him a true hero.

----- Added 3 Minutes later -----



or would he still be the same Clark, just with a huge problem to deal with, which he would try and find a heroic way out of?
[mod edit] Clark had huge problems to deal with since S1. Like the death of his father. Like the killing of Alicia. And so on.

I think this whole "Davis is more of a hero than Clark" is more for Chloe's benefit as a rationalization and justification for Chloe's interest in Davis.

[IHeartClois]

I agree he is pretty heroic since he wanted to sacrifice himself to save everyone else, but I guess the poor guy didnt know that nothing could be done about it.

[Bizarrolover]

I think this whole "Davis is more of a hero than Clark" is more for Chloe's benefit as a rationalization and justification for Chloe's interest in Davis.


While I think you have a point here, I think it's more about Davis doing what Clark never did: falling in love with Chloe. Honestly, I don't understand why some people would rather see her locked in a basement with a monster instead of married to a good person.

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----


Yep, and, worse, Davis rationalizes his murders based on a twisted, self-deluded form of utilitarianism. He kills based on fatalism: there is no redemption possible in his worldview, not for him, not for his victims. He doesn't prevent crime; he merely punishes the guilty. And on what basis? The recidivism rate of convicted criminals? That is Davis taking away more than the lives of his victims, that's him stealing their hope for salvation, too. For a supposedly religious man, this is doing more than stealing lives, this is tantamount to stealing souls. (And, frankly, this view makes him worse than Doomsday, who at least kills out of a relatively pure lust for death and carnage.)

To put it another way: If Davis were Luke Skywalker, he would've killed Vader. If he were Galadriel, he would've taken the ring. And, if he were Harry Potter, he would've used avada kedavra on Voldemort. That's not a hero.

Clark takes chances with the fate of the world by having the courage of his convictions. He (finally) understands that the ends do not justify the means and that the greatest good is defined by our actions not apart from them. He doesn't allow fear and panic (both of which motivate Davis) to motivate him. In the short-term, Clark looks weak,naive, even reckless. But that's because he acts according to principle, not pragmatism. If Davis trusted Clark, if he chose hope over despair, Clark might have saved him. Davis has enough free will to make that decision, but he doesn't.

And no matter how nutty the writing for the show gets, I feel these themes persevere and demonstrate why Clark became, as promised, the true hero of the show.

Excellent post!

[saltyweeks]

Seems like an easy way to dismiss Davis as a human is just to ignore that he has a different personality planted inside of him through the DNA magic of the super-hero world. I don't consider anything Davis has yet done when his eyes were red to be Davis, I consider it Doomsday. If there was no Doomsday, do you really think Davis Bloom the paramedic would kill anyone? Where is there a rationalization for that?

And no one seems to want to challenge the simple scenario I posted. What if there was a kind of kryptonite that made Clark a killer. It affected him and he had no choice but to be a monster. When he WASN'T under that control, would that mean Clark is no longer a hero? Or would it still be Clark, just a Clark that got the mojo put on him?

BTW, I never said Clark wasn't a hero (in fact, my post said he WAS) and I wasn't hacking on Clark, but pointing out that Davis has a different type of behavior that I feel is noble. But, if you can't see the difference between Davis and Doomsday you won't get that at all. You will also (I see) not like what the writers are doing with all this. They obviously have feelings for the character of Davis and gave him an interesting plight, and want him to be sympathetic. Otherwise we'd have the Doomsday from the comics and just a one-show stupid fight.

Also, I will point out for all Clark-lovers (and I am a Clark-lover, of course, mentioned that too) who are offended for him-- after the end of "Eternal" it's apparent that one person who really does share my good opinion of Davis is...Clark Kent. He makes my point pretty eloquently when Davis is in the cage.

[Bizarrolover]

And no one seems to want to challenge the simple scenario I posted. What if there was a kind of kryptonite that made Clark a killer. It affected him and he had no choice but to be a monster. When he WASN'T under that control, would that mean Clark is no longer a hero? Or would it still be Clark, just a Clark that got the mojo put on him?

I started to reply to this 'challenge' but I deleted it. This is a superman show. he doesn't kill, that's why he's superman. That's why I am not going to speculate about the possiblity of Clark becoming infected with something and starting killing people because that is not going to happen. Sometimes I read the comics and watch the animated series. Many times Superman was put into a situation where he almost killed, either under the infulence of a spell or infected by some kind of alien stuff and still he never did it. Never (I think he did once, when he killed Zod). That's the mythology. In SV, clark was infected by two different kinds of K and yet he never killed. He came close, but he didn't. That's what makes him Superman, the moment Superman starts killing, he won't be Superman anymore.

[smallvillerocks45]

I think the closest kind of kryptonite that could make Clark a killer is Red K - as I mentioned earlier in a post - and now that I think of it, Silver K, too. Yet, Silver K was planted by Brainiac on purpose, so Clark killing someone was prevented. As for the Red K, Clark had to make a choice. He could have killed Jonathan - or anyone for that matter - he has no inhibitions when under this type meteor rock. The thing is, Clark knows better, and he chose to destroy the Red K ring.

Clark, however, probably realizes that Davis, due to his upbringing perhaps, doesn't know better or doesn't realize that there are other options... and as a result Clark feels sorry for him - he truly wishes that he could help him, or save him even though the irony is that this a machine that was built to utterly destroy him.

I suppose what makes Davis noble in some ways is the fact that he is acting as a vigilante and kills people who aren't contributing much to society... but he is killing people, and he's doing it because an urge inside of him makes him want to. I honestly don't know what that makes him, I need to ruminate about it for a little longer... but I know that at this point I could never say he's more heroic than Clark.

I think it has to do with choices. (I've mentioned this before too)... and it is Clark that makes decisions that affect the greater good that make him heroic. Davis, on the other hands seems to only be driven by his desires, i.e. Chloe. Even when he couldn't control his transformation - he went straight to Chloe's wedding. Why? Because he is driven by his desire to kill Clark and to be with Chloe. As I said, I need to ruminate more on what that make him... for all we know, it could just be human... but reading some posts reminded me of this point I had made earlier, so I figured I'd add this in.

[BadToad]

BTW, I never said Clark wasn't a hero (in fact, my post said he WAS) and I wasn't hacking on Clark, but pointing out that Davis has a different type of behavior that I feel is noble.

No, your thread title didn't ask if Davis is "noble", or even more "noble then Clark". It specifically puts forth the assertion that Davis is more heroic then Clark, and later in the post refers to Clark as a "johnny-come-lately".

Not hacking on Clark? Really? I think the thread title alone is suggesting that. JMO

[Dor el]

Clark is the real hero of this story. Davis may be more sensitive, but he is not the hero,

[Tompouce]

But Clark is sensitive, he just hides his feelings. You are right. Clark IS OUR HERO

[scifigirl]

IMO, there is no doubt that Clark is the hero. While Davis killing himself is preferable to him continuing to be a serial killer, he did it to save/help himself. You could read that whole scene at the lab as playing on both Clark and Chloe's sympathies. After all, he knew that if the kryptonite did not permanently kill him it would make him stronger. In my mind this is very simple and clear. Davis is out killing every night out of his own self interest. Clark, on the other hand is out saving people every night because he believes in the good in humanity. IMO, there is no comparison

[Davis Bloome]

After all, he knew that if the kryptonite did not permanently kill him it would make him stronger.
How did he know that? I think he genuinely wanted to die and don't see Davis as someone who is manipulative.

[scifigirl]

^^^He knew that because Faora told him "That which kills you makes you stronger." in Bloodline before she stabbed him and he resurrected. He then tested her theory by stabbing himself and he realized that nothing could puncture or penetrate his skin anymore. The lesson was reinforced in this episode when Tess blew him up and he resurrected and healed. I will grant you that he knew Kryptonite was the only thing that might permanently kill him; but, he knew it was an if, and past experience showed him if it didn't he would be stronger.

He is manipulative. He tried to manipulate Chloe and Jimmy in Turbulence to cover up Jimmy seeing him kill the drunk driver. He also manipulated/deceived the nurse to get the anti-psychotic meds. I am not saying that there is nothing interesting or sympathetic about Davis because there is, I just refuse to see him as heroic or good.

[Violet-Shadow]

^^^He knew that because Faora told him "That which kills you makes you stronger." in Bloodline before she stabbed him and he resurrected. He then tested her theory by stabbing himself and he realized that nothing could puncture or penetrate his skin anymore. The lesson was reinforced in this episode when Tess blew him up and he resurrected and healed. I will grant you that he knew Kryptonite was the only thing that might permanently kill him; but, he knew it was an if, and past experience showed him if it didn't he would be stronger.

He is manipulative. He tried to manipulate Chloe and Jimmy in Turbulence to cover up Jimmy seeing him kill the drunk driver. He also manipulated/deceived the nurse to get the anti-psychotic meds. I am not saying that there is nothing interesting or sympathetic about Davis because there is, I just refuse to see him as heroic or good.

ITA with you about Davis. I can't see him as being heroic or good either. Conflicted - yes. That's not enough to make him a hero though. Besides, he doesn't seem to be all that conflicted anymore anyway.

[luthorian]

Clark isn't truely a hero until he lives for saving people and protecting earth. The thing with Clark is that he acts like he is forced to save the world. So in that way almost everyone on SV has shown to be more heroic than Clark.

It has gotten better from what it used to be but still I'm not convinced simply because of what happened with Lex and is now happening with Doomsday. These threats are always after him, which he knows better than anyone, but still does nothing until it's too late. The funniest thing is Clark is the first one to admit this :\

[smallvillerocks45]

I don't think that Clark hesitates to save people. He may not want to be "Superman" yet, but if someone is in need of help, and he can be there, he's going to save them. ... And I don't think that he feels burdened by his powers anymore. He enjoys what he's doing at the planet, and he rejected Chloe's efforts to convince him to stop.
I think Clark's pretty heroic.

[Davis Bloome]

^^^He knew that because Faora told him "That which kills you makes you stronger." in Bloodline before she stabbed him and he resurrected. He then tested her theory by stabbing himself and he realized that nothing could puncture or penetrate his skin anymore. The lesson was reinforced in this episode when Tess blew him up and he resurrected and healed. I will grant you that he knew Kryptonite was the only thing that might permanently kill him; but, he knew it was an if, and past experience showed him if it didn't he would be stronger.

He is manipulative. He tried to manipulate Chloe and Jimmy in Turbulence to cover up Jimmy seeing him kill the drunk driver. He also manipulated/deceived the nurse to get the anti-psychotic meds. I am not saying that there is nothing interesting or sympathetic about Davis because there is, I just refuse to see him as heroic or good. I'm not saying he's a hero but I do see him as a good person. Now when Faora told him about what kills him makes him stronger, he was lying down bleeding to death. He was almost in a catatonic state. Besides he thought she was acting crazy, so I'm not sure he picked up what she said or believed it. Yes he knew he was very strong. He couldn't be killed by a knife any longer. And the flames didn't kill him, but hurt him pretty much. He heals fast but he wasn't invincible. So as you said he knew kryptonite might and seeing what an effect it had in the past, he thought it was probably the only thing now that could kill him.

And about Jimmy, Chloe, the nurse and all. I don't see that as manipulating. Manipulating is pushing someone so that they would do something for you. Lying so that people would be of benefit to you. He lied to cover up his tracks as a murderer, but there's no benefit for himself in his lies, only more remorse that he has to. But we all know why he murders, so it's no surprise that he also has to lie about it.

[scifigirl]

^^^Ok, lying and deceptive would be better words for him. I don't think he believed Faora at first either. That is why he tested what she said and he found out it was true. I don't see him as good. A good person or a person who was even conflicted would have done one of these things long ago if they knew or suspected they were killing people: 1. Sought psychiatric help (I am sure for a while he thought that he was crazy or had multiple personalities). 2. Turned himself in. 3. Isolate or find someway to restrain himself. Do I think that he wants to be in the situation that he is in? No. Do I feel some sympathy for him because he has a doomed destiny? yes. Is he a good person? No. He is by nature a killer. We saw that even in the flashback when he kills the bird.

[ginevrakent]

And about Jimmy, Chloe, the nurse and all. I don't see that as manipulating. Manipulating is pushing someone so that they would do something for you. Lying so that people would be of benefit to you. He lied to cover up his tracks as a murderer, but there's no benefit for himself in his lies, only more remorse that he has to. But we all know why he murders, so it's no surprise that he also has to lie about it.

How can he be good if he deliberately injected Jimmy with an overdose of morphine or some other kind of psychotic drug just to make it easier to manipulate people?

What benefit does Davis get from his lies? Chloe's continued love, support, and trust.

[wolverine316]

It sickens me when a mass murderer is even remotely compared to Clark, let alone regarded as heroic... :mad:

Actually it is totally laughable.

Basically I am just repeating what has already been said but......

1) Davis Bloom is not a hero; not even a good guy. He has killed people in his human form. Whether they were scum or not doesn't give him the right to make that decision.
2) He feels the only way out is to commit suicide which is a gutless thing to do.
3) He manipulates Chloe(don't get me started on her) into staying with him. She is suppose to change her entire life because your will isn't strong enough to control your rage.

[petitemimi]

Clark isn't truely a hero until he lives for saving people and protecting earth. The thing with Clark is that he acts like he is forced to save the world. So in that way almost everyone on SV has shown to be more heroic than Clark.

It has gotten better from what it used to be but still I'm not convinced simply because of what happened with Lex and is now happening with Doomsday. These threats are always after him, which he knows better than anyone, but still does nothing until it's too late. The funniest thing is Clark is the first one to admit this :\

Oh yeah. Clark is responsible for what happened to woobie Lex and woobie Davis. Boohoo. Clark fans are the first to admit that the writing for his character SUCKS especially with Peterson/Souders who never liked writing Clark.

You know, every murderer in every prison will tell you that it's not their fault, it's the others' fault if they did what they did. It's a typical criminal trait. Even Al Capone was famous for saying that he was a hero from the bottom of his cell. Usually, people with judgment don't buy into that.

[Davis Bloome]

How can he be good if he deliberately injected Jimmy with an overdose of morphine or some other kind of psychotic drug just to make it easier to manipulate people?

What benefit does Davis get from his lies? Chloe's continued love, support, and trust.He only injected Jimmy to cover up his tracks. And again it's another form of lie. If he actually enjoyed killing people then I would say all his lies benefited him, but he doesn't. And I doubt Chloe would love him more. No doubt he got her sympathy because he got accused "wrongly" by Jimmy. But that was not the purpose of his lies. He was not turning Jimmy into a liar so he could get her sympathies, no he had to turn him into a liar because Jimmy was an unfortunate witness. The easiest thing for Davis to do would be killing Jimmy. Good riddance too imo lol. But he's not that type of guy.

[Dyanara]

Ok this is the only thing I have to add to this, comparing Davis to serial killers in prison is not right in the least. Those people didnt have a Superhuman being implanted in them who is intent on killing the world. Its like blaming Reagan for the murders she committed in The Exorcist when she was possessed.
Thats all go back to the debate now.

[saltyweeks]

Ok this is the only thing I have to add to this, comparing Davis to serial killers in prison is not right in the least. Those people didnt have a Superhuman being implanted in them who is intent on killing the world. Its like blaming Reagan for the murders she committed in The Exorcist when she was possessed.
Thats all go back to the debate now.

nice interlude :)

[Davis Bloome]

Let me ask something else scifigirl. If it were manipulations as you say even when Davis was in that Cage. Do you think Clark would fall for it? Chloe would be blinded by love, but Clark who doesn't trust him at all. Would he be naive enough to believe his "manipulations"?

[ginevrakent]

Ok this is the only thing I have to add to this, comparing Davis to serial killers in prison is not right in the least. Those people didnt have a Superhuman being implanted in them who is intent on killing the world. Its like blaming Reagan for the murders she committed in The Exorcist when she was possessed.
Thats all go back to the debate now.

Davis is not possessed when he kills the lowlifes of Metropolis. The only people he has killed that you could legitimately claim were completely out of his control were the murders he committed when he was fully transformed as Doomsday. Stealing multiple personality drugs, lying to Chloe, drugging Jimmy were all Davis not Doomsday.

I seriously cannot believe that anyone could forgive Davis for what he has done. What about what he will do? Threatening to hurt her friends if she doesn't run away with him? You think these are the hallmarks of a good guy who just can't control himself?

[Davis Bloome]

Considering the circumstances I don't blame Davis for the wrong things he has done. Yes they're still wrong. Lying, killing, he did that by himself, but he felt forced to do those acts. He wanted it to end but he couldn't find a way, so he just chose for what seemed to be the best option. And considering the spoiler. I have to see the circumstances to judge them. Desperate times take desperate measures. Doesn't make them right, but it makes them more forgivable.

[scifigirl]

Davis Bloome, In my last post I granted you that manipulative was not the best word for him. I said that lying and deceptive are more appropriate words for him. As Clark pointed out, he can't imagine what it would be like to be Davis and know that no matter how he led his life he was doomed. I also don't believe that Davis wants the fate he has been given or that he wants to kill people. Do I feel sympathy for Davis because of those facts? yes. Fate has dealt him a crappy hand. The fact remains that Davis is by nature a killer and destroyer while Clark is by nature a savior and protector. I cannot and will not see Davis as good. The most positive spin I can put on it is that he is going with the best of his terrible limited options.

[Davis Bloome]

^^^Ok, lying and deceptive would be better words for him. I don't think he believed Faora at first either. That is why he tested what she said and he found out it was true. I don't see him as good. A good person or a person who was even conflicted would have done one of these things long ago if they knew or suspected they were killing people: 1. Sought psychiatric help (I am sure for a while he thought that he was crazy or had multiple personalities). 2. Turned himself in. 3. Isolate or find someway to restrain himself. Do I think that he wants to be in the situation that he is in? No. Do I feel some sympathy for him because he has a doomed destiny? yes. Is he a good person? No. He is by nature a killer. We saw that even in the flashback when he kills the bird.
Sorry didn't see this post, but about the points you brought up.
1. Granted he didn't seek out a shrink but he did seek out medical help, that's why he was looking for those pills for multi-personalities. Maybe if he went to see out a shrink, he would have been most likely been labelled crazy, take him to mental institution where he would just escape from as Doomsday.

2.Turning himself in. Again no cell could hold Doomsday. Not even one made of kryptonite as the scene in Eternal proved. It only made him stronger so as Doomsday he would just have broken out.

3. I thought about that too and again. If he stops killing people for example in an isolated place where there are no people to kill in the first place, the monster would thirst for blood and he would become Doomsday again. And as DD he would just escape from this isolated place too. The only way he could find a way to restrain the beast is to quench it's thirst for blood. And choosing the victims as criminals at least gives Davis some consolation that these people probably deserve more to be killed, rather than the many DD has killed. He only has to kill one person and he can keep the beast quiet, but DD just slaughters who knows how many people randomly.

I agree as he said himself it is in his true nature to kill, but he doesn't like it. As a child he killed that bird simply because he didn't know it was wrong. He still had to learn right from wrong as he grew up. And he knows, but as he said as hard as he fights against it, he'll always return to his true nature.

[theartist27]

So, the question is whether or not Davis is more heroic than Clark? Based on this question alone, I would have to say no. Davis isn't even a hero, so how can he be considered more heroic than Clark? There's no comparison. Sure Davis is fighting the beast within, and that makes his character somewhat sympathetic. But he kills people in order not to kill people (that sounds weird). I don't care if he kills criminals, it's still wrong. On the other hand, Clark protects people everyday from dangerous criminals. And he doesn't have to kill anyone to do it.;)

[rajman]

i dont understand how this question came up, the way clark is at the moment is quite heroic with the red/blue blur thingy, how is davis even remotely heroic

[saltyweeks]

i dont understand how this question came up, the way clark is at the moment is quite heroic with the red/blue blur thingy, how is davis even remotely heroic

well, my opinion about why the question comes up is in the first post :)

again, as i said in the beginning a lot of people's opinions on this are determined by how they feel about the whole nature/nurture issue.

the more people say Davis is by nature bad, the more i wonder about Clark's hypothetical-- what he said when Davis was in the cage. to take it even further, what if their positions really were reversed? if their inherent personalities were the same, but Davis was the son of Jor-El (the savior) and Clark was the destroyer.

i think as Doomsday, Clark might have made some of the same decisions Davis has. but as Kal-El, I think Davis would already be Superman-- I think he'd have jumped on the world savior bandwagon a lot quicker than the reluctant Clark.

[BadToad]

but as Kal-El, I think Davis would already be Superman-- I think he'd have jumped on the world savior bandwagon a lot quicker than the reluctant Clark.

Oh yeah, no hacking on Clark being done here :rolleyes:

And you are basing this on what? We know next to nothing about Davis at this point.We don't know how he lived his life prior to being introduced. We don't know if he's done unsavory things as Davis. We know almost nothing about him, besides the fact that he became an EMT, and he's been killing since he was a child. Thats pretty much all.

I'm not sure how one could draw any conclusion on what Davis would, or would not, have done in Clark's shoes.

[LoD]

well, my opinion about why the question comes up is in the first post :)

again, as i said in the beginning a lot of people's opinions on this are determined by how they feel about the whole nature/nurture issue.

the more people say Davis is by nature bad, the more i wonder about Clark's hypothetical-- what he said when Davis was in the cage. to take it even further, what if their positions really were reversed? if their inherent personalities were the same, but Davis was the son of Jor-El (the savior) and Clark was the destroyer.

i think as Doomsday, Clark might have made some of the same decisions Davis has. but as Kal-El, I think Davis would already be Superman-- I think he'd have jumped on the world savior bandwagon a lot quicker than the reluctant Clark.

I'm with BadToad on this. What defines Davis's "inherent personality" in that case? And I'm being serious.

To me, Davis without Doomsday is a frontal cortex without a limbic system. He's not a complete person. Personally, if Davis is born without Doomsday, I assume he leads a quiet existence in an asylum somewhere or else goes on to fulfill his destiny as a sociopathic killer. Because, without Doomsday, I'm not sure Davis properly develops the capacity for human emotions. But, on the plus, he won't have the rage or the compulsion of a Doomsday, either.

But, OK, what if Clark was the one born with the sadistic split personality disorder?
In that case, I think SVClark does what all Clarks do whenever DC goes back to the "Superman of different origins" well in the comics: he overcomes the obstacles of his upbringing to triumph over evil. (I'm not sure you can actually play out a tabula rasa scenario with Clark.) On the show, we have seen him with amnesia, and with uncontrolled impulses (Red K), and with a split personality (Kal-El), but so far the body count remains relatively low.


Excellent post!
Thanks!:D

[Watching Smallville]

I don't know that Davis is more heroic. He is the mirror of Clark. Both are fighting their destinies. Both are trying to be normal human beings. Davis has chosen to kill in order to save himself. Clark would never kill, even if it was to save himself. Kryptonite makes Davis stronger, makes Clark weaker. Some very interesting parallels and contrasts have been set up between the two of them.

And in both cases, fighting destiny is useless. I feel for Davis because he has a duel nature and has no choice but to surrender to the destructive side. Clark has one nature -- he's good. His struggle is not about fighting his nature, only how he's going to express it. Davis has the more difficult journey, imo.

[luthorian]

Red eyes....what a natural color for someone who isn't possessed. I never realised until now that he did that on purpose to look scary :lol:

[RedKRules]

Davis more heroic than Clark ????? DEFINITELY :D

----- Added 4 Minutes later -----


Red eyes....what a natural color for someone who isn't possessed. I never realised until now that he did that on purpose to look scary :lol:


I love Red Eyes ..... :lol:

[LuthorKent90]

Um no. If he were so heroic he wouldn't be taking lives. PERIOD.
No matter how he justifies it, it is wrong. Who is he to play judge, jury and executioner?
If he were so heroic, he would've secluded himself somewhere far off from humans.
But instead he's going to church confessions, and bringing his cross out on murder sprees.

Clark doesn't kill. Clark may not be the brightest bulb in the bunch, but to call Davis more heroic than him just because he "tries" to go against his nature is an insult.

[chlo-el]

Um no. If he were so heroic he wouldn't be taking lives. PERIOD.
No matter how he justifies it, it is wrong. Who is he to play judge, jury and executioner?
If he were so heroic, he would've secluded himself somewhere far off from humans.
But instead he's going to church confessions, and bringing his cross out on murder sprees.

Clark doesn't kill. Clark may not be the brightest bulb in the bunch, but to call Davis more heroic than him just because he "tries" to go against his nature is an insult.

I find it hilarious that you have a Edward and Bella avi. Do you think that Edward isn't heroic? I think Edward is very heroic for trying to go against his nature and only feeding on animals.

Davis didn't have a choice in killing it was either kill bad guys or let the monster loose and kill innocents. And he is heroic for trying to make it all stop, sacraficing himself for everyone else.

And going to confession and bringing his cross shows he doesn't want to do this and wants forgiveness. He's looking for redemption. He doesn't want to continue to kill people but he was brought into it.

I don't think he's more heroic then Clark but he does treat Chloe better then Clark does. And he tries soooo hard to be good.

[LuthorKent90]

I find it hilarious that you have a Edward and Bella avi. Do you think that Edward isn't heroic?
:rotfl: Good one! I just knew someone on this forum would comment on my twilight love.

Edward did go off and kill selective humans just like Davis at one time.
But you'll never see me call Edward heroic. Especially in comparison to Clark.:p

[chlo-el]

:rotfl: Good one! I just knew someone on this forum would comment on my twilight love.

Edward did go off and kill selective humans just like Davis at one time.
But you'll never see me call Edward heroic. Especially in comparison to Clark.:p

Oh, well there you go. So what do you call Edward then?

[Selina]

Davis more heroic than Clark?

Hell no!

Sure I can find empathy in the fact that Davis is fighting with his inner demons and doesn't want to kill ..... but none of that refrains from the fact that HE DOES KILL and Clark doesn't.

Clark can be the BDA at times but there is no doubt in my mind that he is more heroic of the two. He saves lives, has a strong code of ethics and has never killed a single person.

I applaud Davis for fighting against his destiny. He trying his best to do the good thing but he doesn't measure up to Clark in the heroic stakes, despite the influences that surround him.

All that said though, I do really feel for him and enjoy watching the character. He's no one-dimmentional killing machine.

[LuthorKent90]

Oh, well there you go. So what do you call Edward then?

I'll PM you.;)

[chlo-el]

^ OK then.

[mjs1973]

Davis isn't any more heroic than the "ring that bell" guy, let alone Clark. That is all.

:lol::lol::lol:

Clark said it himself. He wondered what would have happened if the Luthor's picked him up instead of Davis. The reason why Clark is more heroic is because of how he charishes life. He charishes life so much he would do anything to make sure not one person dies. Martian Manhunter told him that he couldn't save everyone and Clark came back and said "The moment I believe that is when I stop trying." You can't say the same about Davis. Look what he has done to Chloe and Jimmy. Making Chloe believe that Jimmy is out of his mind?

He knew that the kryptonite would kill him, but he also knows that what kills him makes him stronger. It's just a matter of time before he kills someone who is just an innocent bystander, if he hasn't already. Davis is a killer no if's, ands, or buts about it. That doesn't make him heroic.

[Malicieux Toutou]

I mean not everyone is like Davis, even if they would have a Beast in himself. Davis is really heroic, in my opinion. Instead killing anyone, he kills bad people, which he doesn't want to do either, but has too.

Except for the first one. It wasn't until after he murdered Linda Lake that he realized killing could suppress the beast.

[Bizarrolover]

Davis didn't have a choice in killing it was either kill bad guys or let the monster loose and kill innocents. And he is heroic for trying to make it all stop, sacraficing himself for everyone else.

And going to confession and bringing his cross shows he doesn't want to do this and wants forgiveness. He's looking for redemption. He doesn't want to continue to kill people but he was brought into it.

I don't think he's more heroic then Clark but he does treat Chloe better then Clark does. And he tries soooo hard to be good.

Davis did have a choice as he killed as Davis, choosing to kill what he considers are bad people instead of letting the beast kill random people (good or bad). Honestly, I would prefer the killing beast because at least we can say he's not in control of his actions. But when he began to rationalize each death and chose his victims, he joined the murderer category. Here, they are all innocents, because the people Davis killed were not condemned by a jury. Like someone else said, Davis was the prosecutor, the jury and the executor. I'm sure that not all of those 'bad' guys he killed deserved a death sentence or to be buried in a field. To me his behaviour is creepy and unjustifiable. If someone thinks his actions are poetic, then it's their prerrogative, but I certainly don't agree with that position or consider him heroic in the very least.

As for looking for redemption, he's confession to the priest wasn't complete. He just said there was a darkness inside of him and conveniently omitted the murders he committed. He kisses a cross after burying his victims expecting to be absolved from his sins but he doesn't do anything to stop it. He buried (as Davis) over 100 people in that field before looking for help. Again, he's not a hero, he's just another murderer who is trying to justify his actions with his tragic story.

[mjs1973]

As for looking for redemption, he's confession to the priest wasn't complete. He just said there was a darkness inside of him and conveniently omitted the murders he committed. He kisses a cross after burying his victims expecting to be absolved from his sins but he doesn't do anything to stop it. He buried (as Davis) over 100 people in that field before looking for help. Again, he's not a hero, he's just another murderer who is trying to justify his actions with his tragic story.

If he had confessed to these murders the priest would have told him that the only way for absolution would to be to accept the punishment and turn himself in.

[chlo-el]

Davis did have a choice as he killed as Davis, choosing to kill what he considers are bad people instead of letting the beast kill random people (good or bad). Honestly, I would prefer the killing beast because at least we can say he's not in control of his actions. But when he began to rationalize each death and chose his victims, he joined the murderer category. Here, they are all innocents, because the people Davis killed were not condemned by a jury. Like someone else said, Davis was the prosecutor, the jury and the executor. I'm sure that not all of those 'bad' guys he killed deserved a death sentence or to be buried in a field. To me his behaviour is creepy and unjustifiable. If someone thinks his actions are poetic, then it's their prerrogative, but I certainly don't agree with that position or consider him heroic in the very least.

As for looking for redemption, he's confession to the priest wasn't complete. He just said there was a darkness inside of him and conveniently omitted the murders he committed. He kisses a cross after burying his victims expecting to be absolved from his sins but he doesn't do anything to stop it. He buried (as Davis) over 100 people in that field before looking for help. Again, he's not a hero, he's just another murderer who is trying to justify his actions with his tragic story.

That is a horrible thought to rather have Doomsday just run loose. That would make Davis and Doomsday one. Davis is choosing the lesser of two evils. It would not be better to just let countless innocent people die.

Of course his confessions weren't complete but what was he supposed to do, just tell him he killed? That wouldn't keep the Beast tamed if he did. I think that doing this killings gave him guilt making him feel guilt and made him feel human like he said to the priest. He might be rationalizing but it is better then letting innocents die. And taking some control is better then letting a raging monster loose and letting innocents die.

[mjs1973]

That is a horrible thought to rather have Doomsday just run loose. That would make Davis and Doomsday one. Davis is choosing the lesser of two evils. It would not be better to just let countless innocent people die.

Of course his confessions weren't complete but what was he supposed to do, just tell him he killed? That wouldn't keep the Beast tamed if he did. I think that doing this killings gave him guilt making him feel guilt and made him feel human like he said to the priest. He might be rationalizing but it is better then letting innocents die. And taking some control is better then letting a raging monster loose and letting innocents die.

You may be right in your view of Davis but you have to remember, he has no free will. He doesn't love Chloe, he is still running the program that BrainIAC enabled. The whole reason why BrainIAC picked Chloe was because he knew that Clark would not kill that host. If BrainIAC had picked Lois, Davis would be looking for Lois and so on and so forth. He kills (as Davis or Doomsday) because that's what he was created to do. Just like Jor-El told Clark, Doomsday was bred for a single purpose, to kill.

[chlo-el]

You may be right in your view of Davis but you have to remember, he has no free will. He doesn't love Chloe, he is still running the program that BrainIAC enabled. The whole reason why BrainIAC picked Chloe was because he knew that Clark would not kill that host. If BrainIAC had picked Lois, Davis would be looking for Lois and so on and so forth. He kills (as Davis or Doomsday) because that's what he was created to do. Just like Jor-El told Clark, Doomsday was bred for a single purpose, to kill.

I disagree. I think as Davis he tends to have some free will. I think if everything he thought and feeld and did was programming, he wouldn't be struggling with all of this guilt . he wouldn't have been horrified to find out the horrible things he did. And in "Abysse" he would have took advantage of Chloe when she only remebered him. I think that Brainiac, Faora, Zod who ever programmed made a mistake when creating his "camaflauge" because it gave it thoughts and feelings. It reminds me of Cylons from Battle Star once they started to love everything changed.

Doomsday may have been bred to kill but Davis was bred to fool everyone in thinking it's human including himself. And the more he feels like human the more Davis becomes prevelant then Doomsday.

[Bizarrolover]

That is a horrible thought to rather have Doomsday just run loose. That would make Davis and Doomsday one. Davis is choosing the lesser of two evils. It would not be better to just let countless innocent people die.

Of course his confessions weren't complete but what was he supposed to do, just tell him he killed? That wouldn't keep the Beast tamed if he did. I think that doing this killings gave him guilt making him feel guilt and made him feel human like he said to the priest. He might be rationalizing but it is better then letting innocents die. And taking some control is better then letting a raging monster loose and letting innocents die.

I don't think it's a horrible thought because, when it comes to taking lives, I don't think there is a lesser evil or a greater evil. Murder is murder and no one deserves to die just because they are not 'Metropolis' finest'. At least, Doomsday is a monster with no consciousness of his actions but the moment Davis rationalized his crimes and chooses who deserves to die and who doesn't, then he turned into a monster himself.

I live in a country that was attacked by terrorism for 10 years. Terrorists (that thought their ideas were right) planted bombs in homes, schools and factories and killed many innocents together with their targets. Some people (the military) thought they had the right to protect society in their own terms and killed over 10.000 people (terrorists, all bad guys) and buried them in fields just like Davis did. So you can't ask me to symphatise with Davis' actions, they bring too many bad memories to think that what he did is correct. I lived the reality of people justifying murder for a 'greater good' (on both sides) and believe me, its nauseous. I lost an uncle (who wasn't a terrorist, he was a political activist) in that stupid battle of 'good' against 'evil'. Now, twenty years later I still don't know which was the right side. They both committed atrocities.

[mjs1973]

I disagree. I think as Davis he tends to have some free will. I think if everything he thought and feeld and did was programming, he wouldn't be struggling with all of this guilt . he wouldn't have been horrified to find out the horrible things he did. And in "Abysse" he would have took advantage of Chloe when she only remebered him. I think that Brainiac, Faora, Zod who ever programmed made a mistake when creating his "camaflauge" because it gave it thoughts and feelings. It reminds me of Cylons from Battle Star once they started to love everything changed.

Doomsday may have been bred to kill but Davis was bred to fool everyone in thinking it's human including himself. And the more he feels like human the more Davis becomes prevelant then Doomsday.

Ok, say you are right. Does that still make him more heroic than Clark? No matter what Davis feels, he still kills. He doesn't find any other way around killing. Clark on the other hand values life.

[Malicieux Toutou]

To even ask this question, one has to assume that Davis and Doomsday are two separate beings who inhabit the same body, and that Davis is not morally responsible for Doomsday's actions. I don't think that's been proven yet. If down the road, team Clark finds a way to separate Davis and Doomsday, then I will accept that they are separate beings. But at this point, I'm not convinced. We all have a good side and a bad side. Bloomsday's good and bad sides are simply more distinct than a normal person's because of the physical transformation and memory loss. "My genetics made me do it" is not an excuse because we ARE our genetics. They make us do good things too.

Now I realize that in the world of Smallville, even a perfectly normal person can have his good and bad side separated through the use of black K. But for the sake of this discussion, I'm going to pretend that Onyx didn't happen. Besides, we were left to believe that the two Lex's weren't independently functional humans, because if one died it was worried that the other would also die.

[unfocused]

Popping in again to remind everyone that Davis killed a nun. And then stole her rosary. That is all.

[BadToad]

Popping in again to remind everyone that Davis killed a nun. And then stole her rosary. That is all.

She was probably a "bad" nun, and therefore had it coming. :p

[abbaspice1]

Yes he did kill a nun. A HERO doesn't do such things.

I empathize with the guy. I feel sorry for him. But Davis is not a hero. Maybe an anti-hero (and hat is stretching that definition to its limits), but he is NOT HEROIC. And he definitely is NO WAY NEAR the same league as Clark.

[Fawbish]

It saddens me that so many people can only view the world in black and white.

[Skaterpen357]

I view him as...heroic. Not necessarily a hero, but yeah. All his early killings are under the influence of the beast, and while I maintain that Davis and Doomsday are the same person, obviously that's a special case. As for the serial killer thing, come on. Yeah, he's killing people, but the alternative is transforming into the beast. Can he really be faulted? It's a catch-22 here; either he kills bad guys, or he allows many, many more innocent people to fall victim to what is undeniably a far more gruesome and painful death. And he did opt for suicide to stop himself. And I really think he believed Kryptonite was his one true weakness; otherwise, he wouldn't bother with the shower at all.

Comparing him to Clark...hate to say it, but Clark, over the course of the series, is often forced into doing good. This season, he's definitely taking more initiative, but ultimately, Davis is the kind of person who's always tried to do what's right, not because of destiny or because it's expected of him, but because he wants to. Eventually, this is exactly what Superman will be. But for now...Davis, I think, really is heroic.

[saltyweeks]

[quote=unfocused;4710497] [Mod Edit]

gosh unfocused, you may indeed think my question ridiculous, but i'd love for you to actually read my reasons for posting it before making your pronouncement :)

[TOMophilus]

Comparing him to Clark...hate to say it, but Clark, over the course of the series, is often forced into doing good. This season, he's definitely taking more initiative, but ultimately, Davis is the kind of person who's always tried to do what's right, not because of destiny or because it's expected of him, but because he wants to. Eventually, this is exactly what Superman will be.
This is an outrageous falsity! :mad:

[unfocused]

K.

Read it.

You forgot to add that Davis killed a nun. And then stole her rosary. Things heroes do.

[Night_Hawk90]

I view him as...heroic. Not necessarily a hero, but yeah. All his early killings are under the influence of the beast, and while I maintain that Davis and Doomsday are the same person, obviously that's a special case. As for the serial killer thing, come on. Yeah, he's killing people, but the alternative is transforming into the beast. Can he really be faulted? It's a catch-22 here; either he kills bad guys, or he allows many, many more innocent people to fall victim to what is undeniably a far more gruesome and painful death. And he did opt for suicide to stop himself. And I really think he believed Kryptonite was his one true weakness; otherwise, he wouldn't bother with the shower at all.

Comparing him to Clark...hate to say it, but Clark, over the course of the series, is often forced into doing good. This season, he's definitely taking more initiative, but ultimately, Davis is the kind of person who's always tried to do what's right, not because of destiny or because it's expected of him, but because he wants to. Eventually, this is exactly what Superman will be. But for now...Davis, I think, really is heroic.

so trying to commit suicide and deciding who dies is heroic? sometimes i cant believe what i am reading.

[topping82]

I think they are both heroic in different ways. I see Davis how Clark sees him. There's hope, and Davis has done the best with what's been given him, and that's admirable.

Davis can't be evil because he has no real free will when it comes to the killings. I hope he finds the redemption he seeks.

And I hope Clark is right, I hope there's another way, other than Davis' death for the monster to be stopped.

[9-SOSIHTWB]

The dude kills people for a hobby.
That's not HEROIC.
It's SADISTIC!
Exactly, you can't call someone who geets pleasure out of killing people 'Heroic'!!!!!!!!!!!!

[topping82]

Honestly, I would prefer the killing beast because at least we can say he's not in control of his actions.

But now that Davis is aware of what happens when he blacks out, he would be willingly not doing anything to stop the beast from taking control to kill more people, therefore making it a choice.

Davis only had two choices placed before him: 1) Let the beast take over and kill many innocents OR 2) stop the beast by killing a bad guy whenever he feels the beast taking over.

He chose the latter because he knew it would cause the least damage. Just letting the beast take over would also be a "choice." But in my opinion it would have been the wrong one. I guarantee if that's what he had done there would be people singing against Davis being evil because of this. Poor guy can't win.

I'm with Sam Witwer. AKA Davis is not evil. He's just a good guy with a really crappy destiny. One I hope he can overcome or change.



But when he began to rationalize each death and chose his victims, he joined the murderer category. Here, they are all innocents, because the people Davis killed were not condemned by a jury. Like someone else said, Davis was the prosecutor, the jury and the executor. I'm sure that not all of those 'bad' guys he killed deserved a death sentence or to be buried in a field. To me his behaviour is creepy and unjustifiable. If someone thinks his actions are poetic, then it's their prerrogative, but I certainly don't agree with that position or consider him heroic in the very least.

It seems some are playing judge, jury and executioner for Davis. Clark has become a bit like Frodo in my opinion. Perhaps it will be Clark's pity for Davis that will ultimately save him in the end.

Davis knew it was wrong, but he didn't know what else to do. Honestly the only other choice he had at the time was to let the beast take control and MURDER more people.



As for looking for redemption, he's confession to the priest wasn't complete. He just said there was a darkness inside of him and conveniently omitted the murders he committed. He kisses a cross after burying his victims expecting to be absolved from his sins but he doesn't do anything to stop it. He buried (as Davis) over 100 people in that field before looking for help. Again, he's not a hero, he's just another murderer who is trying to justify his actions with his tragic story.

He is clearly looking for redemption. And I don't think he expects to be absolved. Hence why he says he has no redemption. He just longs for it.

And no he is not just another murderer trying to justify his actions, as he has no real control. If he could choose not to kill, he wouldn't.

Hopefully with Chloe he will now have a new option.

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----


Exactly, you can't call someone who geets pleasure out of killing people 'Heroic'!!!!!!!!!!!!

I haven't actually seen Davis enjoy killing people. He always looks horrified afterward. As Sam Witwer has said in an interview I don't think we'll be seeing him break out into maniacal laughter.

[unfocused]

On the contrary. EVERYONE, including Davis, enjoyed Linda Lakes death ;)

[BadToad]

As for the serial killer thing, come on. Yeah, he's killing people, but the alternative is transforming into the beast. Can he really be faulted?

Well, yes, I think it can.

But even if you don't "fault" Davis, this is heroic? You can argue that he's forced into this, but its NOT heroic. He's killing people. And really folks, "bad" people don't deserve to be executed willy-nilly. We actually saw him going after a thief to kill him. A thief? Do they deserve to be executed?

Where is the compassion, or even any regard whatsoever for the all the people Davis killed. A whole field of bodies. Human remains in garbage bags, dumped in a dumpster. These were human beings. These people had families. I can't believe the lack of any regard whatsoever for human life I'm seeing here. Sure, it could've been worse, but that doesn't mean it still wasn't really, really bad.

For me to fully have compassion for Davis? I'd need to see him trying to isolate himself completely from humanity. I'd have to see him trying to end his life over and over and over again. I'd have to see him really suffering over what he did to Jimmy, not to mention his victims. I'd have to see him trying to do anything and everything to stop himself. And sorry, for me, taking a few pills, then moving right on to killing just doesn't cut it. Not even close.


Comparing him to Clark...hate to say it, but Clark, over the course of the series, is often forced into doing good.

And I've seen countless examples of Clark doing good just because thats what he feels compelled to do.

And I most certainly, over the course of one season, and less then a dozen episodes, don't see enough information to conclude that Davis has always done good, or wanted to do good. What evidence is there for this? We have NO CLUE what he's done in his life before we met him, except for him becoming a paramedic. That is it. And on this, we've decided that he was St Davis, the champion of goodness? Somehow, I doubt it. And the crucifix he's always kissing is proof positive of the opposite. Or did the nun have it coming?


It saddens me that so many people can only view the world in black and white.

It saddens me that people are so willing to justify murder, and excuse it. IMO

[Bizarrolover]

As for the serial killer thing, come on. Yeah, he's killing people, but the alternative is transforming into the beast. Can he really be faulted?

I think he's a different kind of beast. Doomsday is a mindless killer, he kills without premeditation, Davis is a rational murderer, he selects his victims according to his own standards of who is a good or a bad person. Either way, he's a beast.

[TOMophilus]

Where is the compassion, or even any regard whatsoever for the all the people Davis killed.
What do you expect from MOD EDIT that enjoy blowing people´s heads off every day in violent computer games? Shouldn´t that have a lasting de-sensitizing effect? Don´t you think that if the essence of entertainment is violence and killing, there must be a bad effect on some? For example, in making them believe the big hero is the one with the biggest body count? :\

[quietone]

For me to fully have compassion for Davis? I'd need to see him trying to isolate himself completely from humanity. I'd have to see him trying to end his life over and over and over again. I'd have to see him really suffering over what he did to Jimmy. I'd have to see him trying to do anything and everything to stop himself. And sorry, for me, taking a few pills, then moving right on to killing just doesn't cut it. Not even close.

This is the problem I have with Davis. He doesn't seem to really have any remorse for his actions. Kissing a crucifix, running to confession, and popping pills isn't nearly enough IMO. It all seems cosmetic. The guy is still a paramedic which provides great access and a cover for his bad deeds. If Davis really were remorseful about killing people you'd think he'd be distancing himself from the human population instead of working in a major metropolitan area where there are thousands of people tempting his supposed uncontrollable urges. Heroic my foot!

And don't even get me started on Davis' treatment of Jimmy. Davis obviously never gave two hoots about him. He didn't care about having a hand in sabotaging Chloe/Jimmy marriage and now he's having dinner with Chloe and pretending to be all caring and sympathetic? What a load of bull! How is this heroic?

[saltyweeks]

K.

Read it.

You forgot to add that Davis killed a nun. And then stole her rosary. Things heroes do.

unfocused-- real question here, because i can't remember right now. did they show him killing the nun? i thought they just implied it, so i could be wrong. if so, my question would be: were his eyes red when he did it? in other words, was it Doomsday or Davis?

of course, if you see them as the same (the view Davis has come to) it doesn't matter, if you see them as different personalities (the view Clark seems to be favoring now-- and I like) it does.

[SnowBird]

unfocused-- real question here, because i can't remember right now. did they show him killing the nun? i thought they just implied it, so i could be wrong. if so, my question would be: were his eyes red when he did it? in other words, was it Doomsday or Davis?

It's very evident to me Davis killed her rather than Doomsday. DD wouldn't take the time to pick up a cross and save it.

Davis with just red eyes doesn't make Doomsday. Davis with red eyes has control of himself. When Jimmy handcuffed Davis and his eyes turned red, he turned his head and saw Chloe and immediately turned his head back so she wouldn't see who it was. He warned Jimmy and Chloe both to leave. He had full control of his thoughts and actions and knew what he was doing. Those red eyes means he is only starting to turn into Doomsday. Using the excuse of Davis has red eyes doesn't excuse him of murder since he still has thought proceess, imo.

[Tompouce]

It's very evident to me Davis killed her rather than Doomsday. DD wouldn't take the time to pick up a cross and save it.

Davis with just red eyes doesn't make Doomsday. Davis with red eyes has control of himself. When Jimmy handcuffed Davis and his eyes turned red, he turned his head and saw Chloe and immediately turned his head back so she wouldn't see who it was. He warned Jimmy and Chloe both to leave. He had full control of his thoughts and actions and knew what he was doing. Those red eyes means he is only starting to turn into Doomsday. Using the excuse of Davis has red eyes doesn't excuse him of murder since he still has thought proceess, imo.
You are totally right. Thanks ! I didn't think of it this way until now...Anyway, Clark is SUPERMAN and Superman is the real hero who saves the world so...

----- Added 2 Minutes later -----


This is the problem I have with Davis. He doesn't seem to really have any remorse for his actions. Kissing a crucifix, running to confession, and popping pills isn't nearly enough IMO. It all seems cosmetic. The guy is still a paramedic which provides great access and a cover for his bad deeds. If Davis really were remorseful about killing people you'd think he'd be distancing himself from the human population instead of working in a major metropolitan area where there are thousands of people tempting his supposed uncontrollable urges. Heroic my foot!

And don't even get me started on Davis' treatment of Jimmy. Davis obviously never gave two hoots about him. He didn't care about having a hand in sabotaging Chloe/Jimmy marriage and now he's having dinner with Chloe and pretending to be all caring and sympathetic? What a load of bull! How is this heroic?
You are right too. ITA. Each time he kisses this crucifix, it drives me crazy (and it is not for religion beliefs), it is just so false. It gives him the feeling he is forgiven just because of this. It is so easy...Beuuuuuuuuuuurkkkk !

[mjs1973]

Clark values life, Davis doesn't.

Clark made the end of Ryan's life better for Ryan because Clark was able to take Ryan where things were silent. Even though Ryan died, Clark made his death less painful. Clark didn't take his life and buried him out in some field. That's what Davis did. He has no remorse.

[chlo-el]

I don't think it's a horrible thought because, when it comes to taking lives, I don't think there is a lesser evil or a greater evil. Murder is murder and no one deserves to die just because they are not 'Metropolis' finest'. At least, Doomsday is a monster with no consciousness of his actions but the moment Davis rationalized his crimes and chooses who deserves to die and who doesn't, then he turned into a monster himself.

I live in a country that was attacked by terrorism for 10 years. Terrorists (that thought their ideas were right) planted bombs in homes, schools and factories and killed many innocents together with their targets. Some people (the military) thought they had the right to protect society in their own terms and killed over 10.000 people (terrorists, all bad guys) and buried them in fields just like Davis did. So you can't ask me to symphatise with Davis' actions, they bring too many bad memories to think that what he did is correct. I lived the reality of people justifying murder for a 'greater good' (on both sides) and believe me, its nauseous. I lost an uncle (who wasn't a terrorist, he was a political activist) in that stupid battle of 'good' against 'evil'. Now, twenty years later I still don't know which was the right side. They both committed atrocities.

And I am not saying that those people deserved to die. But Davis doesn't have a choice. He would never choose to kill at all. But since for him it's either kill people who aren't innocent other then innocents he's making the best choice he can given his options. I am not saying it's ok to be judge, jury, and executioner but Davis didn't have a choice, it 's either do that or commit more horrible attrocities.

I am so very sorry that you have lived in a country that had terrorism. Now that is horrible. I wouldn't classify Davis in the same league as terrorist. Because Davis is not killing people for his beleifs (IMO although I can see from Turbulence how it could be interpted that way.) he doesn't have a choice until a better option is placed in front of him.

----- Added 3 Minutes later -----


Clark values life, Davis doesn't.

Clark made the end of Ryan's life better for Ryan because Clark was able to take Ryan where things were silent. Even though Ryan died, Clark made his death less painful. Clark didn't take his life and buried him out in some field. That's what Davis did. He has no remorse.

That's just not true. They showed Davis have remorse. He gave up his life because he had remorse.

[Night_Hawk90]

i might say davis is somewhat heroic, if he actually told the authorities about his killings, but instead he decides to bury them hoping that no one will find out.

[chlo-el]

^If he told the authorities they would end up dead. Doomsday has that whole survival thing coming out in threatening situations.

[unfocused]

Well, yes, I think it can.

But even if you don't "fault" Davis, this is heroic? You can argue that he's forced into this, but its NOT heroic. He's killing people. And really folks, "bad" people don't deserve to be executed willy-nilly. We actually saw him going after a thief to kill him. A thief? Do they deserve to be executed?

Where is the compassion, or even any regard whatsoever for the all the people Davis killed. A whole field of bodies. Human remains in garbage bags, dumped in a dumpster. These were human beings. These people had families. I can't believe the lack of any regard whatsoever for human life I'm seeing here. Sure, it could've been worse, but that doesn't mean it still wasn't really, really bad.

For me to fully have compassion for Davis? I'd need to see him trying to isolate himself completely from humanity. I'd have to see him trying to end his life over and over and over again. I'd have to see him really suffering over what he did to Jimmy, not to mention his victims. I'd have to see him trying to do anything and everything to stop himself. And sorry, for me, taking a few pills, then moving right on to killing just doesn't cut it. Not even close.

And I've seen countless examples of Clark doing good just because thats what he feels compelled to do.

And I most certainly, over the course of one season, and less then a dozen episodes, don't see enough information to conclude that Davis has always done good, or wanted to do good. What evidence is there for this? We have NO CLUE what he's done in his life before we met him, except for him becoming a paramedic. That is it. And on this, we've decided that he was St Davis, the champion of goodness? Somehow, I doubt it. And the crucifix he's always kissing is proof positive of the opposite. Or did the nun have it coming?

It saddens me that people are so willing to justify murder, and excuse it. IMO
Quoted for truth, win and awesomeness.


It's very evident to me Davis killed her rather than Doomsday. DD wouldn't take the time to pick up a cross and save it.

Davis with just red eyes doesn't make Doomsday. Davis with red eyes has control of himself. When Jimmy handcuffed Davis and his eyes turned red, he turned his head and saw Chloe and immediately turned his head back so she wouldn't see who it was. He warned Jimmy and Chloe both to leave. He had full control of his thoughts and actions and knew what he was doing. Those red eyes means he is only starting to turn into Doomsday. Using the excuse of Davis has red eyes doesn't excuse him of murder since he still has thought proceess, imo.
Thanks for answering that question, there really isn't anything I can add to this. You're right, Doomsday wouldn't have picked up a rosary. And we've been seeing more and more of Davis' red eyes, they represent the beasts emergence. Meaning Davis is still there and losing control. As in he still has control that he can lose.


Clark values life, Davis doesn't.

Clark made the end of Ryan's life better for Ryan because Clark was able to take Ryan where things were silent. Even though Ryan died, Clark made his death less painful. Clark didn't take his life and buried him out in some field. That's what Davis did. He has no remorse.
Thanks for posting this. This is a hero in his truest form, what Clark did for Ryan. There is nothing Davis has ever done, or will ever do, that compares to Clark in the episode Ryan.

[Night_Hawk90]

^If he told the authorities they would end up dead. Doomsday has that whole survival thing coming out in threatening situations.

ah good point i guess i was not thinking when i wrote that

[chlo-el]

ah good point i guess i was not thinking when i wrote that

Thanks. No worries it happens to the best of us.

[Bizarrolover]

And I am not saying that those people deserved to die. But Davis doesn't have a choice. He would never choose to kill at all. But since for him it's either kill people who aren't innocent other then innocents he's making the best choice he can given his options. I am not saying it's ok to be judge, jury, and executioner but Davis didn't have a choice, it 's either do that or commit more horrible attrocities.

I am so very sorry that you have lived in a country that had terrorism. Now that is horrible. I wouldn't classify Davis in the same league as terrorist. Because Davis is not killing people for his beleifs (IMO although I can see from Turbulence how it could be interpted that way.) he doesn't have a choice until a better option is placed in front of him.

----- Added 3 Minutes later -----



That's just not true. They showed Davis have remorse. He gave up his life because he had remorse.

Doomsday doesn't have a choice, Davis has one, leave metropolis and live in complete isolation. That would at least narrow his chances to find someone to kill.

Maybe he feels remorse, but it lasts until the urge to kill itches him again. And giving the number of bodies he buried in that field, it happens pretty often. I don't think he gave up his life either, he didn't have one. If anything, he's trying to ruin Chloe's by asking her to stay with him in the basement.

Anyway, I think Davis and Dooms are two sides of the same entity. One kills impulsively, the other selectively. When Davis started killing to repress the beast, he became a different type of beast, but a beast nonetheless. The difference is the carnage Dooms leaves behind.

[mjs1973]

That's just not true. They showed Davis have remorse. He gave up his life because he had remorse.

Davis knows, what kills him makes him stronger. He knew that once he was taken over by the kryptonite and it killed him, he would be coming back stronger than before. He didn't act at all suprised when he was talking to Chloe after he took his krypto shower. In fact, after putting the two together (BrainIAC telling him to kill the other Kryptonian and Tess telling him he came with Clark) he probably acted remorsful to have Chloe "kill" him knowing full well that he will come back to life and make himself stronger to fight the other Kryptonian.


Thanks for posting this. This is a hero in his truest form, what Clark did for Ryan. There is nothing Davis has ever done, or will ever do, that compares to Clark in the episode Ryan.

Thanks unfocused, and let's not forget Clark's and Lana's "son" Evan and how Clark helped him, also. Fact of the matter is Clark is all about valuing life. If he wasn't then he would have gone the way the Legion wanted him to go and take Chloe's life to save billions.

I believe Davis had other plans in mind when he "gave up his life".

[chlo-el]

Doomsday doesn't have a choice, Davis has one, leave metropolis and live in complete isolation. That would at least narrow his chances to find someone to kill.

Maybe he feels remorse, but it lasts until the urge to kill itches him again. And giving the number of bodies he buried in that field, it happens pretty often. I don't think he gave up his life either, he didn't have one. If anything, he's trying to ruin Chloe's by asking her to stay with him in the basement.

Anyway, I think Davis and Dooms are two sides of the same entity. One kills impulsively, the other selectively. When Davis started killing to repress the beast, he became a different type of beast, but a beast nonetheless. The difference is the carnage Dooms leaves behind.

If Davis left in isolation that wouldn't leave much story for the show now would it?

I just see it differently then you do, obviously. I don't see it as him feeling an urge to kill I see him as feeling Doomsday coming to the surface so he did what ever took took to stop it.

To me "Davis" is the camaflauge they created as the entity to fool everyone in thinking it's human including himself. And since Davis has thoughts and feelings he has created a life of his own. He's like a Cylon, frankenstein, or a clone. Or anything that was created but started to try to live a life of it's own. And I think he did have a life. Life was created whether it was artificially created or not, it's still life.

[BadToad]

To me "Davis" is the camaflauge they created as the entity to fool everyone in thinking it's human including himself. And since Davis has thoughts and feelings he has created a life of his own. He's like a Cylon, frankenstein, or a clone. Or anything that was created but started to try to live a life of it's own. And I think he did have a life. Life was created whether it was artificially created or not, it's still life.

And all that is fine. I won't debate it with you, and I can see where you are coming from. But it doesn't make Davis heroic, and certainly not more heroic then Clark. And thats what my real beef is with this thread. The idea put forth by the OP that Davis is, somehow, better then Clark. And I still ask the same questions, how?, why?, based on what evidence?.

Because he's into Chloe? I have to wonder how much sympathy he'd be getting if he wasn't playing Beast to Chloe's Beauty. Not nearly as much, I'd bet.

Feeling sorry for Davis? I disagree, but I get it. Feeling that Davis was being noble in trying to kill himself? I get that too. But this doesn't make him heroic. And there is nothing, repeat nothing heroic in choosing murder. Frequent, calculated murder. As well as the calculated concealment of those murders. Maybe one could argue that Davis has no other choice, though I certainly didn't see him try a lot of other options before deciding that killing was the way to go. But where and why is that heroic? Its not. It just isn't. And to not only compare him to Clark, but to do so and find Clark lacking is just unfathomable to me. JMO

[Skaterpen357]

I'm not going to bother quoting the various people who posted after me, so sorry if this comes off as disjointed...

Of course killing criminals is not heroic. Believe me, I'm definitely opposed to execution and all that. But that's not the point. The heroic part isn't killing criminals; that's just a slightly lesser evil--the fact that they're criminals aside, killing one person vs. turning into Doomsday...it's sadistic on Zod's and Brainiac's part, but for Davis, it really does come down to taking one life vs. taking...countless...it's a choice he has to make; there's no cop-out for him. Like I said, it really makes Zod and Brainiac that much more evil, but Davis, I think, is a victim here.

Now, according to many religions (including mine), suicide is morally unacceptable. I stand by that. Davis' attempted suicide is not moral, but it is, in this case, heroic. The term "heroic sacrifice" ring any bells? Suicide may be sinful, but Davis is not the first to attempt to ensure his own death to serve the greater good. Darth Vader comes to mind, even if that wasn't technically suicide...

It just so happens the existence of the person Davis is trying to stop is contingent on his own life, so I don't agree in the slightest with the argument that trying to kill himself was not heroic.

Davis has never shown any indication whatsoever that he enjoys killing. According to my faith, at least, one must have free will to be guilty of sin, and as Brainiac states, Davis has no free will. Thus, killing one person to suppress Doomsday is something that must happen: while Davis chooses whether or not to kill, he can't choose not to make that choice.

As for compassion for the dead, well...that's all fine and good, but realistically, it's perfectly natural for Davis to...uh...freak out. He could contact the authorities, if he wants to be arrested, confined in a place with many people like prison guards and criminals who would invariably harass him to the point of becoming the beast and slaughtering...everyone. Except no, that's a bad thing.

And yes, we've seen Davis trying to be good; doing everything he can to suppress the beast is a very good thing; I wasn't even referring to his career as a paramedic.

As for the cross, I don't remember exactly, but I don't think the indication was that Doomsday or Davis actually picked it up...he does have bony portrusions all over. Kind of a weak argument, but there's nothing to conclusively prove Davis killed the nun. When Clark found Davis at the Ace of Spades, he was...Davis. As in, he killed everyone as Doomsday and blacked out to Davis. Perhaps in the case of the nun, the same thing happened, and took the rosary to remind himself of what he'd done.

Kissing the rosary, for me, isn't so he can feel justified; I choose to believe it's to beg forgiveness from God for something out of his control. Not heroic, per se, but very humble of him, IMO.

And as I've stated in other threads, I think Davis thought Kryptonite was his...Kryptonite. Kryptonite was shown to be a real weakness of his; he probably genuinely thought the Kryptonite would kill him. If he wanted to fake his own death, he could have just shot himself in the head with Chloe and Clark right there. Davis was trying to kill himself.

Finally, for the record, I consider Clark extremely heroic. But take a cursory glance at any of the other threads on this entire forum, and you'll find people love to just completely take Clark apart. I can't speak for you, but watching Clark for eight years, you're bound to find some shortcomings. And while I find many of Davis' choices morally wrong, I can't find anything that is...opposite-of-heroic. Maybe it's just because we haven't seen that side of him. Except his Chlavis kiss at the end of "Abyss." That was definitely opposite-of-heroic. So yeah...

Also finally, I suppose shutting himself off from humanity would be more noble than killing people, but that kind of loneliness will drive someone mad...like...Doomsday mad. Bit of a problem there...honestly, now that Jimmy is MIA, staying with the one person he knows who can fully suppress the beast is the best option for him now.

[unfocused]

If Davis left in isolation that wouldn't leave much story for the show now would it?

Nope. And because of that, Davis is not the hero Clark is. Period. Maybe it's not the characters fault that he isn't the hero Clark is, but that still doesn't change the fact that he is NOT the hero Clark is.


Of course killing criminals is not heroic. Believe me, I'm definitely opposed to execution and all that. But that's not the point. The heroic part isn't killing criminals; that's just a slightly lesser evil--the fact that they're criminals aside, killing one person vs. turning into Doomsday...it's sadistic on Zod's and Brainiac's part, but for Davis, it really does come down to taking one life vs. taking...countless...it's a choice he has to make; there's no cop-out for him.

I didn't read your entire post. But how does this justify Davis being MORE heroic than Clark? Davis can save a kitten in a tree, and be more heroic than he's ever been in his single season here on Smallville. So what if one can consider Davis a hero by any standards, how does what or anything make him MORE heroic than Clark Kent, the Red Blue Blur, SUPERMAN?

Just curious.

[Skaterpen357]

Well, if you did read my entire post, you'd see that I find Clark to be extremely heroic. But how often do we hear complaints from the most die-hard Superman/Smallville fans that Clark doesn't act like Superman would?

Perhaps it's hasty to say Davis is more heroic than Clark. But we haven't had the eight years we've had for Clark to see Davis at his worst, so that probably plays into why some see Davis as more heroic at first glance.

(The actual reasons some do see Davis as heroic are also in my post; I don't think that murdering bad guys is what makes Davis heroic, for the record.)

[unfocused]

Well, if you did read my entire post, you'd see that I find Clark to be extremely heroic. But how often do we hear complaints from the most die-hard Superman/Smallville fans that Clark doesn't act like Superman would?

Perhaps it's hasty to say Davis is more heroic than Clark. But we haven't had the eight years we've had for Clark to see Davis at his worst, so that probably plays into why some see Davis as more heroic at first glance.

(The actual reasons some do see Davis as heroic are also in my post; I don't think that murdering bad guys is what makes Davis heroic, for the record.)

So you're saying people think Davis is more heroic than Clark because they simply don't see Clark as Superman? That's more of an anti-Clark statement than a pro-Davis statement.

Seriously, you don't have to be the voice of reason. I already know why anyone would say Davis is more of a hero than Clark. I've been here long enough to know why people would downplay SVClark as Superman. You really don't need to answer for them, unless you are one the them that think Davis is actually more of a hero than Clark Kent.

[Skaterpen357]

So you're saying people think Davis is more heroic than Clark because they simply don't see Clark as Superman? That's more of an anti-Clark statement than a pro-Davis statement.

Seriously, you don't have to be the voice of reason. I already know why anyone would say Davis is more of a hero than Clark. I've been here long enough to know why people would downplay SVClark as Superman. You really don't need to answer for them, unless you are one the them that think Davis is actually more of a hero than Clark Kent.
Not just because they don't see Clark as Superman, but also because they see Davis as heroic in his own right.

And I'm not trying to be the voice of reason, but I would like my posts to be reasonable. Otherwise, I shouldn't be posting here. And answering for people I don't agree with is simply acknowledging the validity of their arguments instead of dismissing them as "unbelievable."

I'm 'a go ahead and say this is getting slightly heated...I think all of us need to cool just a bit. :\

[unfocused]

No problem.

I can't even see Davis more heroic than RedK Clark, to be honest. I would compare him more to SilverK Clark. But when we all compare Clark and Davis, we need to complare them together, as in the same season. Standing next to eachother, we currently see a man doing all he can to suppress a beast inside of himself, that's a noble thing to. And then we see a man who actively goes out saving lives and risking his own, every night. that's a heroic thing to do.

I see Davis as noble. I see Clark as heroic. Those two things are similar, but they are not the same. To say Davis is a hero, after he leaves a field of murdered victims, just because he chooses to kill thieves is illogical, IMO.

[Skaterpen357]

Hm. I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree here--I like the distinction between nobility and heroics, and while I'd argue that nobility is heroic, at least we're at some kind of understanding. Cool.

[Bizarrolover]

If Davis left in isolation that wouldn't leave much story for the show now would it?


Of course Davis/Dooms is a plot device, and I'm OK with that. What I don't like is when people think his behavior is heroic or when his 'heroics' are compared to Clark's.
Those defending this 'theory' are saying Davis is killing to prevent a greater massacre. So let's start a body count, how many people were killed by Doomsday and how many were killed by Davis. He learned he could control the beast in Infamous (let's say it happened a month ago, in story time) and he already buried about 100 hundred bodies in that field. So, in about a year or two, he'll be even with Doomsday. Now, in ten years time, who will have the greatest number of deaths in their account? Davis or doomsday? At least, when doomsday attacks, there is chance for survival. Lana was only midly injured, Jimmy was badly hurt and Jimmy's friend died. The chances to die in his attacks are, let's say, 1 in 3. When davis kills, he makes sure his victim dies because 1) he needs to soothe the beast and 2) he needs to cover his tracks.

Anyway, I know I won't change your mind, in the same way I'm not going to change mine. We have different visions and I'm OK with that. Peace. :)

[chlo-el]

I don't think Davis heoric can be compared to Clarks because their different kinds of heroics. I do think Clark is more of a hero then Davis is. But what Davis does by fighting the Beast within it is heroic.

I just don't like people calling Davis a pure villian when he is fighting so hard not to be.
But each to their own right?
Alright we'll agree to disagree. Peace.

[smallvillerocks45]

After reading the last few posts, I came to an epiphany of sorts: Doomsday was sent to Earth to kill Kal-El and eradicate all of the planet's inhabitants. While Davis Bloome, the mask, may want to prevent himself from becoming some kind of monster, by killing people - even if those he kills probably should be behind bars - he is essentially fulfilling his destiny without even realizing it. Faora and Zod could care less if the human is good or evil, they just want them gone... and one by one, Davis is doing it.

Maybe right now, his intentions are "good", granted that there are limited ways in which murder could be seen semi-positively. It's strange, I live in a society that allows capital punishment, but shuns euthanasia (personally, I'm not sure what I feel about it - and not everyone in the US feels the same; I'd never make such a large generalization - it's too touchy of a subject) - but in the context of the show, I'd find Davis' actions more noble were he helping people who actually wanted to go. I'm not saying that Davis' attempts and desires to fight the beast within aren't noteworthy nor am I saying he should focus on the terminally ill or suicidal - I don't think Davis should be killing at all, but as it is, Davis is committing a vast number of serious crimes - and sometimes the victim didn't really need to die (i.e. Linda Lake).

For this reason, I can't call Davis a hero - and even if in attempt he is noble - Davis just isn't more heroic or more noble than Clark. For me, the question alone implies that Clark isn't doing enough - and I just don't see that as being true. He's doing his best, and the more he develops, the better he'll become. He's going to be Superman some day, and with that will come a great deal of sacrifice (in many ways, his path thus far already has been met with such) - what can be more heroic than that?

[SnowBird]

For the ones who think Davis is Heroic:

You are the victum.....If you could be with Davis or Clark, who would you choose?

Davis who is looking for a victum to quiet the beast?

OR

Clark who would save you from Davis looking for a victum?

I wonder how many will answer this question honestly?

[unfocused]

Absolutely amazing post, smallvillerocks45.

Since I don't think Davis is heroic, I won't attempt to answer Snowbird's question. But I will ask my own.

For those that believe Davis is more heroic than Clark: If you, for some odd reason, were mugging a defenseless elderly woman in a dark alley, which "hero" would you rather show up, Clark or Davis?

[mjs1973]

For the ones who think Davis is Heroic:

You are the victum.....If you could be with Davis or Clark, who would you choose?

Davis who is looking for a victum to quiet the beast?

OR

Clark who would save you from Davis looking for a victum?

I wonder how many will answer this question honestly?

Since when does Clark save people from Davis? Clark saves people no matter what. How about this:

You are the victim....If you could be with Davis or Clark, who would you choose?

Davis who is looking to kill to quiet the beast?

Or

Clark who saves lives and asks for nothing in return?

Clark has saved many people, including those close to him, and chooses to find another way. Just look at what Clark did when he went over to Lex's semi-truck. He felt remorse. He probably tells himself that it was somewhat his fault that Lex is dead.

[sithius]

I completely agree with the OP (haven't read the rest of the thread).

Thing that gets me though, is that a couple episodes ago he found out Chloe can calm him down, stopping DD from emerging. So why didn't he go to Chloe straight away and tell her this (like he did at the end of this episode)? Perhaps he was afraid she would reject him, but it was worth a shot. Instead, he chose to keep going on his killing rampage, as demonstrated at the beginning of the episode. A shame really, but I'll put that down to sloppy writing. In general, the concept is really good and Davis is a hero.

[actaeon]

It seems that Davis can subdue the beast within by killing someone who **cough** deserves it **cough**. He can also it seems-- sometimes-- subdue the beast within by being with Chloe, the girl he desires. Two states that share one common element: strong emotion.

So it seems to me that if Davis can subdue the beast within, then his Doomsday transformations are not totally beyond his control.

If we were meant to see Davis' Doomsday transformations as utterly uncontrollable, and therefore in no way his responsibility, then why introduce these two loopholes?

I don't trust the guy.

[unfocused]

I completely agree with the OP (haven't read the rest of the thread).

Thing that gets me though, is that a couple episodes ago he found out Chloe can calm him down, stopping DD from emerging. So why didn't he go to Chloe straight away and tell her this (like he did at the end of this episode)? Perhaps he was afraid she would reject him, but it was worth a shot. Instead, he chose to keep going on his killing rampage, as demonstrated at the beginning of the episode. A shame really, but I'll put that down to sloppy writing. In general, the concept is really good and Davis is a hero.

More heroic than Clark?

[saltyweeks]

Seriously, you don't have to be the voice of reason. I already know why anyone would say Davis is more of a hero than Clark. I've been here long enough to know why people would downplay SVClark as Superman. You really don't need to answer for them, unless you are one the them that think Davis is actually more of a hero than Clark Kent.

whoa, unfocused, i hope you're not speaking for me. i like what Smallville has done with Clark, far better than a lot of the posters i've read. and i (again) never said that Clark was not a hero. i argued that you could consider Davis' actions more heroic for a lot of reasons involving the concepts of free will and destiny. thought that then, think that now.

but i LOVE Clark. why the heck would a person watch Smallville who didn't like Clark? heck, i still can't figure out how a person can watch Smallville and not like LANA (ducks)! :p

[unfocused]

I wasn't talking to you, no worries.

By the way, is anyone going to answer my question above? :rolleyes:

[saltyweeks]

As is, I would obviously take Clark since he's the safe choice. Don't have to worry about those pesky skeletons in my closet that Davis might find out about and think...hmmmm...

But, I go back again to the "inevitability" thing. What if you could take Clark's power (without the DD problem) and give it to Davis. Would you have yourself an invinsible Batman? Someone who might be the better hero for the city as a whole? Guess that comes down to how you feel on the Batman/Superman choice.

Of course, if your view is that Davis is just going to be a killer the analogy doesn't work. I don't think with a different destiny he would be.

[unfocused]

As is, I would obviously take Clark since he's the safe choice. Don't have to worry about those pesky skeletons in my closet that Davis might find out about and think...hmmmm...
Exactly. Thank you.


But, I go back again to the "inevitability" thing. What if you could take Clark's power (without the DD problem) and give it to Davis. Would you have yourself an invinsible Batman? Someone who might be the better hero for the city as a whole?
No. Davis wouldn't be a better hero. I have yet to see him even save anyone the way Clark does. The whole hero opinion on Davis is just that he is a hero for trying to hold in the beast. That's it. Davis doesn't go out and be a hero in the traditional sense as Clark does. Davis can probably be considered a hero for hating the beast within, but he cannot be called a hero for doing anything that a real hero does.

By the way, Batman isn't a murderer. He may see things differently than Clark does and do things in a different way, but again, MURDER is never a choice for a hero. Besides, it's like I said, Davis isn't a hero in the traditional sense as our comicbook saviors. People here are considering a man that hates is true nature a hero, and comparing that to what a REAL hero does, and then saying he is a better hero.

[saltyweeks]

but is DD Davis' true nature, or does he have a nature outside DD? Davis says you can't fight your "true" nature, but isn't that what he has been doing? if it is his true nature, he didn't choose it or come to it, it was implanted. i think the struggle against it by Davis, even if it has been for a losing cause, HAS been heroic, even to the point of being willing to die to stop DD.

[Bizarrolover]

According to Merriam-Webster, these are the definitions of hero<O:p</O:p
<O:p
1-a: a mythological or legendary figure often of divine descent endowed with great strength or ability. <O:p</O:p
1-b: an illustrious warrior <O:p</O:p
1-c: a man admired for his achievements and noble qualities <O:p</O:p
1-d: one that shows great courage<O:p</O:p
<O:p
2: the principal male character in a literary or dramatic workb: the central figure in an event, period, or movement<O:p</O:p
<O:p

So, <O:p</O:p
1-a -> being the creation of what could be defined as two kryptonian (evil)deities (Zod and Faora), <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comhttp://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/ /><st1:City w:st=</st1:City>Doomsday could be considered a hero in this case.<O:p
1-b -> Not exactly an illustrious warrior, but known as an unstoppable killing machine, so the definition applies to Doomsday.
<O:p1-c -> I can't admire Davis for his achievements and don't see any nobility in his actions, so, at least for me, he doesn't match this definition. <O:p
1-d -> I don't see any courage in Davis' actions, I think he's a coward, especially after he dragged Chloe into his miserable existence.
<O:p
<O:p
2: lately, <st1:City w:st="on"><ST1:pDavis/Doomsday</st1:City> has become the center of this story lately, pushing the real hero of this tale to a second place. Unfortunately, this definition makes him a hero.

So, I guess, with so many interpretations, it all depends on what the poster think a hero is. <O:p<O:p

[unfocused]

Thanks, Belen. Now, if anyone considers Davis a hero by the definitions in your post, how would they justify Davis a greater hero than Clark?


but is DD Davis' true nature, or does he have a nature outside DD? Davis says you can't fight your "true" nature, but isn't that what he has been doing? if it is his true nature, he didn't choose it or come to it, it was implanted. i think the struggle against it by Davis, even if it has been for a losing cause, HAS been heroic, even to the point of being willing to die to stop DD.

Fine. You think Davis is a hero. I get it. I understand. And I really don't care, no offense. But how is he any greater of a hero than Clark? Especially since Davis hasn't been a hero in the sense that this show is truly about.

I asked everyone who'd they rather be caught by if they were committing a crime. Would they rather be caught by Clark or Davis. Which one of these "heroes" would you prefer to stop you? The answer to that is the answer to the question "who is more heroic, Clark or Davis?"

[SnowBird]

SnowBird's Question.....For the ones who think Davis is Heroic:

You are the victum.....If you could be with Davis or Clark, who would you choose?

Davis who is looking for a victum to quiet the beast?

OR

Clark who would save you from Davis looking for a victum?

I wonder how many will answer this question honestly?

No one has answered my question above to my satisfaction yet. The only word you would need to reply with is Clark or Davis. Not that hard.

It seems to me that it is alright for Davis to quiet the beast by killing someone as long as that person isn't you. This making my point that Davis is not a hero but a murderer, and Clark who saves people is the Hero.

[LoD]

but is DD Davis' true nature, or does he have a nature outside DD? Davis says you can't fight your "true" nature, but isn't that what he has been doing? if it is his true nature, he didn't choose it or come to it, it was implanted. i think the struggle against it by Davis, even if it has been for a losing cause, HAS been heroic, even to the point of being willing to die to stop DD.

But your "true" nature, by definition, cannot be implanted. It is true, precisely because it is the most primary, unchanging part of yourself. And, in any case, we have no evidence yet on the show to support Doomsday=Implant. Faora and Brainiac tell us Davis was bio-engineered, essentially, so whatever else Doomsday is, it is part of Davis on a genetic level.

And has he been "fighting" his true nature? It seems like for most of his life Davis refused to confront that part of himself. I'm not sure how old he's supposed to be on the show, but if his transformations began in childhood, it seems a little late in the day to be catching on to the fact you have a homicidal alter-ego. I'm not saying Davis had prior knowledge of his Doomsday persona, but his ignorance strikes me as yet another example of his continued lack of self-awareness (or severe mental illness).

Davis has a habit of misreading impulses from his "truer" nature on the show. We see this explicitly with Chloe/Brainiac and we have hints of it in his chosen profession. (Does he really like saving people or just being near them while they suffer?)

And, on that note, isn't it convenient that Davis's only solution to this whole mess (suicide) also clearly supports Doomsday's goals to build up his immunity?

[unfocused]

Allison Mack said Davis is a "master manipulator." This could be a hint that Davis played Chloe and Clark, using her to make himself stronger while drawing her, Clark's closest friend, in closer while making Clark believe he is dead.

Yeah, Davis is a real hero...

[LoD]

No one has answered my question above to my satisfaction yet. The only word you would need to reply with is Clark or Davis. Not that hard.

It seems to me that it is alright for Davis to quiet the beast by killing someone as long as that person isn't you. This making my point that Davis is not a hero but a murderer, and Clark who saves people is the Hero.

Let me play devil's advocate for a moment: I would choose Clark. Clark is the obvious choice for any moral person.

But the original question seemed to ask whether or not Clark's heroism in such cases is just the result of his favorable upbringing or innate "good" nature. In short, is heroism the "easy" choice for Clark because he's had all these advantages in life? Theoretically, if Clark had to suffer for his goodness, as Davis does, then he would have less success with it than Davis has.

As I understand it, Davis' heroism is based on his struggle to be good, going against both his nature and situation, and even in the face of unavoidable failure. His Sisyphean efforts to prevent the inevitable are taken as a sign of his moral superiority (or superiority of character, if you will).

Davis is doomed to kill people, that's a given. But he's heroic because he resists. (Like Sisyphus pushing the boulder.) OTOH, Clark saves people but he's never been tested in that way. And, I think it follows, when things get tough for him on the show, he takes the easy way out (Red-K ring, etc).

And, too, Davis operates within a small sphere of influence, in which his ability to act is limited. So while his actions remain immoral (murder), he acts as good as he can under the circumstances. Clark is not limited in such a way, and the question is: Does Clark act as good as he can under the circumstances? People are saying (I think) that because Clark isn't Superman yet, he's not acting at full capacity and therefore, again, inferior to Davis. Anyway, just thought I'd throw that out there. :)

[saltyweeks]

Let me play devil's advocate for a moment: I would choose Clark. Clark is the obvious choice for any moral person.

But the original question seemed to ask whether or not Clark's heroism in such cases is just the result of his favorable upbringing or innate "good" nature. In short, is heroism the "easy" choice for Clark because he's had all these advantages in life? Theoretically, if Clark had to suffer for his goodness, as Davis does, then he would have less success with it than Davis has.

As I understand it, Davis' heroism is based on his struggle to be good, going against both his nature and situation, and even in the face of unavoidable failure. His Sisyphean efforts to prevent the inevitable are taken as a sign of his moral superiority (or superiority of character, if you will).

Davis is doomed to kill people, that's a given. But he's heroic because he resists. (Like Sisyphus pushing the boulder.) OTOH, Clark saves people but he's never been tested in that way. And, I think it follows, when things get tough for him on the show, he takes the easy way out (Red-K ring, etc).

And, too, Davis operates within a small sphere of influence, in which his ability to act is limited. So while his actions remain immoral (murder), he acts as good as he can under the circumstances. Clark is not limited in such a way, and the question is: Does Clark act as good as he can under the circumstances? People are saying (I think) that because Clark isn't Superman yet, he's not acting at full capacity and therefore, again, inferior to Davis. Anyway, just thought I'd throw that out there. :)

really like your thoughts LoD! :p

but unfocused, i can certainly see the other side, which is why i put a question mark on the thread and an "in a way" in the OP.

[mjs1973]

No one has answered my question above to my satisfaction yet. The only word you would need to reply with is Clark or Davis. Not that hard.

It seems to me that it is alright for Davis to quiet the beast by killing someone as long as that person isn't you. This making my point that Davis is not a hero but a murderer, and Clark who saves people is the Hero.

You need to re-word your question. Clark doesn't save people just because someone, ie Doomsday, is killing people. He saves people because he is accepting his destiny. If you want an answer then I choose Clark. Clark would save me no matter what. Davis doesn't have to be the one trying to kill me. I could be that kid wailing his arms at two would be bullies.

I'm going to quote Seven in regards to Davis:
"This guy's methodical, exacting, and worst of all, patient." Look at what Davis was doing before Jimmy stopped him, he was patiently waiting for the burgler to commit his crime so he could tame the beast. That's not heroic.

[SnowBird]

Let me play devil's advocate for a moment: I would choose Clark. Clark is the obvious choice for any moral person.

But the original question seemed to ask whether or not Clark's heroism in such cases is just the result of his favorable upbringing or innate "good" nature. In short, is heroism the "easy" choice for Clark because he's had all these advantages in life? Theoretically, if Clark had to suffer for his goodness, as Davis does, then he would have less success with it than Davis has.

As I understand it, Davis' heroism is based on his struggle to be good, going against both his nature and situation, and even in the face of unavoidable failure. His Sisyphean efforts to prevent the inevitable are taken as a sign of his moral superiority (or superiority of character, if you will).

Davis is doomed to kill people, that's a given. But he's heroic because he resists. (Like Sisyphus pushing the boulder.) OTOH, Clark saves people but he's never been tested in that way. And, I think it follows, when things get tough for him on the show, he takes the easy way out (Red-K ring, etc).

And, too, Davis operates within a small sphere of influence, in which his ability to act is limited. So while his actions remain immoral (murder), he acts as good as he can under the circumstances. Clark is not limited in such a way, and the question is: Does Clark act as good as he can under the circumstances? People are saying (I think) that because Clark isn't Superman yet, he's not acting at full capacity and therefore, again, inferior to Davis. Anyway, just thought I'd throw that out there. :)

No, my queston was simple and to the point. Not looking for a deep seeded reason or analysis of the characters of why I asked it. Thanks for answering though.

----- Added 6 Minutes later -----


You need to re-word your question. Clark doesn't save people just because someone, ie Doomsday, is killing people. He saves people because he is accepting his destiny. If you want an answer then I choose Clark. Clark would save me no matter what. Davis doesn't have to be the one trying to kill me. I could be that kid wailing his arms at two would be bullies.

I'm going to quote Seven in regards to Davis: Look at what Davis was doing before Jimmy stopped him, he was patiently waiting for the burgler to commit his crime so he could tame the beast. That's not heroic.

I don't think I need to re-word my question. I was looking for a particular answer to specific circumstances and you gave it to me...Thanks.

[mjs1973]

No, my queston was simple and to the point. Not looking for a deep seeded reason or analysis of the characters of why I asked it. Thanks for answering though.

I hate to say this to you SnowBird, I don't think anyone will answer this question to your satisifaction. I won't speak for LoD but I know I answered the question to my satisfaction. I don't know if that was the answer you were looking for.

You posted while I was posting... Disregard.

[SnowBird]

I hate to say this to you SnowBird, I don't think anyone will answer this question to your satisifaction. I won't speak for LoD but I know I answered the question to my satisfaction.

You chose one of two characters so you did answer my question to my satisfaction and again, thanks for your reply.

[LoD]

Yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to go off on a rant there or to psychoanalyze your question in any way, SnowBird. :) I was just engaging in a bit of fun by trying to get in the mindset of other side for a while. I hope I didn't offend you in any way.

[Tompouce]

No one has answered my question above to my satisfaction yet. The only word you would need to reply with is Clark or Davis. Not that hard.

It seems to me that it is alright for Davis to quiet the beast by killing someone as long as that person isn't you. This making my point that Davis is not a hero but a murderer, and Clark who saves people is the Hero.
Snowbird, it is the first time I see you like this:lol:;)Of course, I agree with you. Whatever Davis tries, he is a serial killer as a human being and a beast as Doomsday. The choice is easily done. As someone said it Clark has values thanks to his childhood and his parents. Even if he was destined to save the world, without this he could have been different. It is about choice. Clark chose the good one. He is heroic. He could be selfish, enjoying his powers like travelling everywhere just for pleasure, he has so many choices with his "gifts" but he chooses to save mankind. This man is the one we need, for sure:p;)

[SnowBird]

Yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to go off on a rant there or to psychoanalyze your question in any way, SnowBird. :) I was just engaging in a bit of fun by trying to get in the mindset of other side for a while. I hope I didn't offend you in any way.

Not at all:)

----- Added 3 Minutes later -----


Snowbird, it is the first time I see you like this:lol:;)Of course, I agree with you. Whatever Davis tries, he is a serial killer as a human being and a beast as Doomsday. The choice is easily done. As someone said it Clark has values thanks to his childhood and his parents. Even if he was destined to save the world, without this he could have been different. It is about choice. Clark chose the good one. He is heroic. He could be selfish, enjoying his powers like travelling everywhere just for pleasure, he has so many choices with his "gifts" but he chooses to save mankind. This man is the one we need, for sure:p;)

Not sure what you mean by, 'see me like this', but you are so right about Clark:)

[unfocused]

I think LoD made some very good points. I admit, that I agree Davis never had it like Clark and that isn't his fault. But by that same fact, Davis cannot be as heroic as Clark. You can't blame Clark, either, for having a good upbringing. Not that anyone is trying to.

It's like saying the paper is not as heavy as the rock, simply because they are two completely different things and were created for two completely different reasons. The paper cannot be a rock, it can only be a paper the best it can.

Until the scissors come and help the rock destroy the paper in the finale :\

[Tompouce]

Not at all:)

----- Added 3 Minutes later -----



Not sure what you mean by, 'see me like this', but you are so right about Clark:)
You seemed irritated with your post in big like this, that is why it makes me laugh;)

[Bizarrolover]

OTOH, Clark saves people but he's never been tested in that way. And, I think it follows, when things get tough for him on the show, he takes the easy way out (Red-K ring, etc).

While I agree Clark had a moment of weakness when he put the redK ring, I can't forget that he was teenager overwhelmed by the circumstances. He had just learned he was an alien, his AI father was trying to separate him from his family and he provoked his mother's miscarriage all in a week time. He committed many felonies while in Metropolis and still he never killed anyone. Also, even powerless, Clark continued to try to save lives and convice people to do the right thing. In Leech (S1), Clark lost his powers to Eric Summers and I recall him telling his father 'powers or not, this is who I am' and went to talk Eric out of his madness at the risk of his own life. The same happened in Hidden, when he confronted Gabriel about the missile and tried to stopped. It never crossed his mind to kill them, and always tried to steer them back to the right path.

I think Clark's nature is to be good, like his father (both fathers). Jor-el (the person and not the artificial intelligence designed to instruct Clark) was a pacifist. He died trying to save his planet. Lara was known for her kindness. I strongly believe that Clark would have been good even if raised by Lionel Luthor because hs goodness is in his genes as much as in his upbringing. The Kents were good people, with strong moral values, but Clark emerged from his ship with a smile on his face and was a docile, nice child. Clark isn't saving lives because it's his destiny, he does it because that's his true nature, his essence, because it feels right. Clark puts life above all.

On the other hand, Davis was created by General Zod, an evil man who tortured, killed and destroyed an entire civilization. Evil is in Davis' nature. He prevents death with other kind of death (one that some people even find 'acceptable'). He gave up his fight the moment he killed his first victim as Davis and the fact that he continues to do it shows that, just like his father, he has no regard for human life. Also, by asking Chloe to stay with him, not only he's asking her to give up her life, he's exposing her to the monster that he's not sure he'll be able to control.

[Skaterpen357]

Back again for more mayhem! :D

Nah, seriously, I'm assuming at least most of the posters here actually enjoy arguing, as I do, and aren't just...fighting. That being said, I'd like to say something here really quickly:

People have different definitions of "hero." That was made painfully obvious to me in a class forum I am to post on weekly, when we were discussing what classifies Beowulf as a hero, rather than "just a warrior." Invariably, we got to talking about firefighters and cops, who are doing their duty, and parents, who are often personal heroes to their children. It got pretty annoying, but yeah...

Davis definitely isn't a hero, in the sense that people look up to him and admire his acts, or that they want to be saved by him. But on a more personal level, doing everything you can to fight your inner demons is something admirable. No, killing criminals is not heroic, or noble, but that's more Doomsday mythology than Davis characterisation, IMO. But that's just me.

The fact, however, that Davis would sacrifice his mental well-being (again, killing people isn't acceptable or good, but the whole lesser of two evils thing is an unfortunate reality for Davis), and even his own life (or so he thought), just to stop the beast from breaking out and killing many, many more people indiscriminately, is, in a conceptual way, heroic, even if it's not...physically(?) heroic. Anyone able to follow that...? (I'm terrible at saying things like that clearly.)

I don't know. If this comes down to whether or not Davis is more of a hero than Clark, well...no. Frankly, no. But as much as I completely and utterly hate clichés like this, it's like comparing apples and oranges...

Clark is the greatest hero for the world, while Davis is an example of personal sacrifice for the greater good. It's not the same kind of heroism, but both are...kinds...of heroism. So I'm with the "you can't compare them" camp now, apparently.

[SnowBird]

You seemed irritated with your post in big like this, that is why it makes me laugh;)

Who me, irritated because my hero, Clark is being compared to Davis, the killer?...LOL...I just wanted to make sure my question wouldn't be overlooked;)

[unfocused]

Haha. It was a great question. None of those that believe Davis to be more heroic than Clark would ever answer that question ;)