Davis Is More Heroic Than Clark?

[sithius]

More heroic than Clark?

No, he is probably not as heroic as Clark. We cannot truly say that for certain though, as he doesn't have the same opportunities that Clark has.

Do I think Clark is more of a hero? In a conventional way, yes, because he has powers, he doesn't have a beast residing within him, he had a great upbringing that opened his eyes, and he chose to act for the 'greater good' after this upbringing. Davis might have done that as well, but obviously his circumstances are different. Admittedly, he would have to be one heck of a person to match Clark, but we still can't say with any certainty that he doesn't have that potential.

As for all the people talking about Davis and how he should never murder, what is the alternative? Kill those who have at least done wrong, or kill the innocent? His choice is the best one out of incredibly extenuating circumstances. When he found out that he could end it all, he did it, even though he could possibly have his cake and eat it with Chloe, he didn't want to run the risk of it not working. How is that not noble? He even prays for redemption and forgiveness, and clearly grieves over the situation.

Also, it isn't like he doesn't try to help people. He's a paramedic. It's not like he sits in an office all day, he actively helps people, and so who's to say he wouldn't use Clark's powers to do exactly that, much like Clark has been doing this season?

[unfocused]

I dunno. No one is to say.

What I do know is that Davis isn't as heroic as Clark. He's never even had the opportunity to be. I guess it sucks when you can only guess that Davis might have been more heroic than Clark. But who needs uncertainties when we have the clear honest picture right in front of us?

Davis is the villain, and Clark is the hero.

[sithius]

I dunno. No one is to say.

What I do know is that Davis isn't as heroic as Clark. He's never even had the opportunity to be. I guess it sucks when you can only guess that Davis might have been more heroic than Clark. But who needs uncertainties when we have the clear honest picture right in front of us?

Davis is the villain, and Clark is the hero.

I can't agree with you though. A villain wouldn't care about who 'he' (DD) kills. They wouldn't care about helping people (paramedic) nor would they care about forgiveness and redemption. Davis is a hero in a way, because he is doing his best in a nightmarish situation. He just doesn't fall into the conventional hero category.

[SnowBird]

Haha. It was a great question. None of those that believe Davis to be more heroic than Clark would ever answer that question ;)

Thanks...I guess if one can't tell the truth, it's better to be quiet:rolleyes:

[unfocused]

I can't agree with you though. A villain wouldn't care about who 'he' (DD) kills. They wouldn't care about helping people (paramedic) nor would they care about forgiveness and redemption. Davis is a hero in a way, because he is doing his best in a nightmarish situation. He just doesn't fall into the conventional hero category.

Yeah, I know. people keep calling Davis a hero. I don't agree with them but it's alright. Knowing what Davis will be doing in the coming episodes, I'm pretty sure he won't be considered a hero by anyone, anymore. But hey, people still consider him a hero after he murdered a nun and stole her rosary, so...

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----


Thanks...I guess if one can't tell the truth, it's better to be quiet:rolleyes:

:) So true.

[saltyweeks]

yes, I can perfectly see the reasoning why you think Clark is the hero, and Davis not heroic. but Davis as the villain? i just can't buy that. Doomsday is the villain. maybe Davis will merge with him, or maybe Davis will be destroyed. who knows? i don't think at this point Clark would call him a villain.

[sithius]

Yeah, I know. people keep calling Davis a hero. I don't agree with them but it's alright. Knowing what Davis will be doing in the coming episodes, I'm pretty sure he won't be considered a hero by anyone, anymore. But hey, people still consider him a hero after he murdered a nun and stole her rosary, so...


That was before he realized killing as Davis contains the beast, so by doing it as Doomsday he wasn't any part of it (I can't specifically remember that part, so correct me if I'm wrong).

Thing is, I entirely agree with you that Doomsday is a villain. Doomsday is completely evil. Do I think Doomsday didn't kill Chloe in Infamous? No, I believe he ripped her body apart and was extremely satisfied in doing so.

Do I think Davis and DD are one and the same? Absolutely not. I believe the brain of DD is different to the brain of Davis. As I said in another thread, if Davis' entire body changes radically when he transforms, why is it not expected that his brain also undergoes a massive change? They aren't the same being, at least not in my mind.

[saltyweeks]

That was before he realized killing as Davis contains the beast, so by doing it as Doomsday he wasn't any part of it (I can't specifically remember that part, so correct me if I'm wrong).

Thing is, I entirely agree with you that Doomsday is a villain. Doomsday is completely evil. Do I think Doomsday didn't kill Chloe in Infamous? No, I believe he ripped her body apart and was extremely satisfied in doing so.

Do I think Davis and DD are one and the same? Absolutely not. I believe the brain of DD is different to the brain of Davis. As I said in another thread, if Davis' entire body changes radically when he transforms, why is it not expected that his brain also undergoes a massive change? They aren't the same being, at least not in my mind.

very close to my thinking :p

[unfocused]

That was before he realized killing as Davis contains the beast, so by doing it as Doomsday he wasn't any part of it (I can't specifically remember that part, so correct me if I'm wrong).

Thing is, I entirely agree with you that Doomsday is a villain. Doomsday is completely evil. Do I think Doomsday didn't kill Chloe in Infamous? No, I believe he ripped her body apart and was extremely satisfied in doing so.

Do I think Davis and DD are one and the same? Absolutely not. I believe the brain of DD is different to the brain of Davis. As I said in another thread, if Davis' entire body changes radically when he transforms, why is it not expected that his brain also undergoes a massive change? They aren't the same being, at least not in my mind.

Actually, I'm talking strictly about Davis. I see the difference between the two, and I don't claim Doomsday to be one in the same with Davis. I just don't think Davis is a hero in the sense that would compare him to Clark Kent. He could be a hero for fighting the beast within, but that's not at all comparable to Clark Kent's Red Blue Blur.

But yeah. Like I said about LoD's post, Davis doesn't deserve such a difficult life. It's tragic, but that's how it's written. If someone is smart enough to think of finding some BlackK, then Davis' problems could be fixed. Then we'd be able to see how he is in the hero department. He still won't compare to Clark, but at least he probably won't be murdering people anymore.

I will never even consider Davis Bloome a greater hero than Superman simply for the fact that he wishes the beast inside were to just die. heck, we ALL would wish the same thing, does that make all of us heroes? Let alone greater heroes than Clark Kent? Not in my opinion.

Superman is the worlds greatest hero, Davis isn't even in the same ballpark. And before anyone asks, yes, I do see SVClark as the iconic Superman I grew up idolizing.

[LoD]

If someone is smart enough to think of finding some BlackK, then Davis' problems could be fixed. Then we'd be able to see how he is in the hero department.
And, ironically, Clark might have hit upon this very solution if people would just trust him to get the job done. :rolleyes:

[unfocused]

Sadly, that's a very good point. Chloe loves Clark to death, there's no question. But her feelings for Davis are clouding her judgment and, like I said weeks ago, so much death could have been prevented had she just been honest with Clark about all she knew about Davis from the start, as soon as he began acting weird. But it's not only that, because Clark has been weary of Davis from the beginning, Chloe just refused to listen.

If only she'd let Clark be that great hero she knows he is...

[sithius]

Sadly, that's a very good point. Chloe loves Clark to death, there's no question. But her feelings for Davis are clouding her judgment and, like I said weeks ago, so much death could have been prevented had she just been honest with Clark about all she knew about Davis from the start, as soon as he began acting weird. But it's not only that, because Clark has been weary of Davis from the beginning, Chloe just refused to listen.

If only she'd let Clark be that great hero she knows he is...

What do you mean all she knew about Davis? She only just found out that he's DD.

Also, as for the black kryptonite point, it would most likely split Davis' personality into two, good and evil, much like Lex. And since DD is a result of Davis' genetic makeup, the beast within wouldn't leave and so theoretically you would end up with two DD, and as he is completely evil, they would both be the same since you can't make a split between something that is completely composed of X (in this case, evil). So Clark, at least I think so, wouldn't risk using it in case of that happening.

[shamville]

Chloe knows who doomsdays is. But stupid clark mess with chloe mind she knows everything back when fine take her over.

[unfocused]

What do you mean all she knew about Davis? She only just found out that he's DD.
Chloe knew Davis was having major blackouts, she knew Davis thought he was murdering people during these blackouts, and now she knows Davis is Doomsday and she is not telling Clark that he is alive and in hiding. She's keeping ALL of that from Clark.


Also, as for the black kryptonite point, it would most likely split Davis' personality into two, good and evil, much like Lex.
Much like Lex? Or much like Clark, another Kryptonian? It separated Clark's alter ego, Kal-El of Krypton, from his normal self. Doomsday is Davis' alter ego, and it can separate them two from each other. It separated the two sides of Lex, the good and the evil. It didn't make Lex good or evil.

Black Kryptonite DID NOT turn Lex into an evil man, half of him was already evil. That was kind of the point of Onyx, to show us the evil side that's been brewing in Lex...

[DigitalKing]

Hero or Villain thought experiment:

Mark Trent is a Kryptonian construct. Left on Earth as a combination of chemicals, he seems like any other young man, except he has strange abilities he knows nothing about. These abilities manifest in times of heightened emotion or stress, causing Mark to involuntarily transform into a glorious angelic being with its own consciousness. This being is called Victory.

Mark was raised with a loving family that tried to teach him morals and goodness. His rich parents were missionaries who helped build a school and a hospital in SE Asia. However, Mark retained an odd tendency to be a jerk, being disrespectful and mean to animals.

When Victory takes control, Mark has blackouts prior to this and often wakes up in odd places, once by a suitcase full of money. Unknown to Mark, Victory had saved a busload of school children, and their grateful presents had given Victory a suitcase of money to show gratitude, but Victory refused it as it was against his nature to accept gifts for doing the right thing. Mark, however, has no such compunction, and needs the money, so he takes it while fearing more and more what's happening.

After a while, a particularly forceful transformation occurs, causing Victory to put out a city-wide fire, after which he transforms back into Mark in front of some people. For whatever reason, Mark's not a particularly nice person, so when he's congratulated for helping them, he decides he needs to stop Victory from taking over his body. However, he is told by another angelic being that he has no choice in the matter, and eventually Victory will have full control. Victory's ability to heal from any wound stops Mark from taking his own life. But when Mark in an odd fit of kindness saves a girl from being hit by a bus and his transformation to Victory is halted, he realizes that saving lives stops the transformations. In addition to this, he finds that his hatred for a girl he knows named Zoe also poisons Victory, making it unable to take control. He avoids her, however, because of the threat of Victory taking over and baking her a cake or helping her with homework.

Some people looking on from an omniscient perspective wonder, "Is Mark more villainous than the local bad guy, Devilman? Devilman's been waffling about being a bad guy for years now. Sure, he does loads of bad things, but Mark actually attempts to thwart the goodness of Victory. He saved one person drowning in order to avoid having Victory save the rest of the boat of people. Devilman hurts people, but Mark always wants to do the wrong thing, and he fights the nature of Victory in order to do it. Also, Devilman only hurts a small subset of the population, and no one's trying to force him to do good." And another group replies: "That's nonsense. Mark spends all his time saving lives, and when he turns into Victory, he does even better things too. If he really wanted to stop doing good things, he'd move to the desert." (Ignoring the fact that Victory would just take over his body and fly away to catch a falling plane)

Do Mark's efforts to stop Victory make him a villain? Do Mark's rescues count toward him being a hero?

[sithius]

Chloe knew Davis was having major blackouts, she knew Davis thought he was murdering people during these blackouts, and now she knows Davis is Doomsday and she is not telling Clark that he is alive and in hiding. She's keeping ALL of that from Clark.


Much like Lex? Or much like Clark, another Kryptonian? It separated Clark's alter ego, Kal-El of Krypton, from his normal self. Doomsday is Davis' alter ego, and it can separate them two from each other. It separated the two sides of Lex, the good and the evil. It didn't make Lex good or evil.

Black Kryptonite DID NOT turn Lex into an evil man, half of him was already evil. That was kind of the point of Onyx, to show us the evil side that's been brewing in Lex...

I'm aware of that. Don't you think that Davis has a dark side? As for Kal-el of Krypton, that was a bit hazy to be quite honest, and I think a silly plot device, because black kryptonite would have most likely created normal Clark (who at that point was programmed as Kal-el) and red-K Clark (the one with no inhibitions, since Clark doesn't really hold a significant amount of evil to cause any 'dark' split, so it would ultimately lead to a creation of a Clark void of any vision [the very same vision that gives him his ethics, his spirit etc]).

As my post already tried to show, by splitting Davis you would most likely get two sides of Davis, and the Doomsday side of him (a raw product of evil that is in part of his genetic makeup) would remain in both of them, unless the black kryptonite somehow split the darkness that is Doomsday away from the 'good' Davis' genetics, but there's really no reason to think that for the aforementioned reason; namely, DD an unchangeable part of Davis. It is in his genes. If you used black k on Doomsday, nothing would happen, because he is pure, focused evil. That's why I believe a forced split of Davis' personality would not split DD into two parts, one good form of DD, and another bad, each going with their respective Davis splits. I also don't think it would cause a 'normal Davis' and a 'Doomsday'.

I find this pretty hard to explain, but I've tried the best I can. Basically, I believe DD is part of Davis' genetics, and as the split is a split on Davis, it would lead to two DD's, not a DD and a Davis separately.

[unfocused]

I'm aware of that. Don't you think that Davis has a dark side? As for Kal-el of Krypton, that was a bit hazy to be quite honest, and I think a silly plot device, because black kryptonite would have most likely created normal Clark (who at that point was programmed as Kal-el) and red-K Clark (the one with no inhibitions, since Clark doesn't really hold a significant amount of evil to cause any 'dark' split, so it would ultimately lead to a creation of a Clark void of any vision [the very same vision that gives him his ethics, his spirit etc]).

As my post already tried to show, by splitting Davis you would most likely get two sides of Davis, and the Doomsday side of him (a raw product of evil that is in part of his genetic makeup) would remain in both of them, unless the black kryptonite somehow split the darkness that is Doomsday away from the 'good' Davis' genetics, but there's really no reason to think that for the aforementioned reason; namely, DD an unchangeable part of Davis. It is in his genes. If you used black k on Doomsday, nothing would happen, because he is pure, focused evil. That's why I believe a forced split of Davis' personality would not split DD into two parts, one good form of DD, and another bad, each going with their respective Davis splits. I also don't think it would cause a 'normal Davis' and a 'Doomsday'.

I find this pretty hard to explain, but I've tried the best I can. Basically, I believe DD is part of Davis' genetics, and as the split is a split on Davis, it would lead to two DD's, not a DD and a Davis separately.

I'm sure your theory is harder to understand than it is to explain. You are assuming the writers would actually delve into a logical rationale that would be this difficult to explain and understand. But they don't have to, there is already an understanding amongst the viewers of how black Kryptonite works. And there is no need for any new difficult theories to try to change that understanding.

As of right now, the only information the writers want us to have on black Kryptonite is that it splits a persons dark side from their good side. And all the writers want us to know about Davis is that Doomsday is his dark side. If they want to keep Davis on for another year as just Davis without his dark side, they don't need to explain how black Kryptonite would achieve this. But if black Kryptonite is used on Davis and he splits into two Davis' while one of them is evil, and both of them have a dark side (Doomsday) THEN the writers will have a hard time explaining that one. As it would actually cause them to rewrite how black Kryptonite actually works (which would be different than how Crusade and Onyx explained)

On topic, I think the black Kryptonite angle would actually allow us to see Davis as a hero next season, or at least an anti hero, and the more I think about that, the more intrigued I am about it. Because Davis has shown his strength and immortality without Doomsday, so maybe he would still have all that power once Doomsday was extracted from him. I'd like to see a redemption arc for him, and he eventually wins his own personal battles.

[sithius]

I'm sure your theory is harder to understand than it is to explain. You are assuming the writers would actually delve into a logical rationale that would be this difficult to explain and understand. But they don't have to, there is already an understanding amongst the viewers of how black Kryptonite works. And there is no need for any new difficult theories to try to change that understanding.

As of right now, the only information the writers want us to have on black Kryptonite is that it splits a persons dark side from their good side. And all the writers want us to know about Davis is that Doomsday is his dark side. If they want to keep Davis on for another year as just Davis without his dark side, they don't need to explain how black Kryptonite would achieve this. But if black Kryptonite is used on Davis and he splits into two Davis' while one of them is evil, and both of them have a dark side (Doomsday) THEN the writers will have a hard time explaining that one. As it would actually cause them to rewrite how black Kryptonite actually works (which would be different than how Crusade and Onyx explained)

On topic, I think the black Kryptonite angle would actually allow us to see Davis as a hero next season, or at least an anti hero, and the more I think about that, the more intrigued I am about it. Because Davis has shown his strength and immortality without Doomsday, so maybe he would still have all that power once Doomsday was extracted from him. I'd like to see a redemption arc for him, and he eventually wins his own personal battles.

How? I've been thinking about it some more and I've decided to explain it again, as I've partly changed the theory.

DD = not active when Davis is around.

Dark side of Davis = active, in the same way the dark side of Lex was active in the early seasons. He doesn't have to transform to become dark Lex, there is always that evil part of him that is conscious.

Since that dark side of the average person is always active, black kryptonite causes a split between the good (active again) and the bad. Since Doomsday isn't active (but instead resting in Davis' genetic makeup unless brought to surface via certain facts like anger) black Kryptonite wouldn't cause a split.

To be honest, you can say this is hard to understand, but it's even harder to understand the science between a personality split in the first place, and Kal-el isn't the bad version of Clark, he's more like an AI version (like Jor'el) so they actually messed up in Crusade and changed it from how it worked in Onyx.

For reference, I am using my theory in correspondence to Onyx.

EDIT: Simply put, if there was a good and bad side to Doomsday, and the black kryptonite was used on Davis, I believe it wouldn't end up with:

Good Doomsday and good Davis as 1 being... and the same for evil DD and evil Davis.

Instead, you would end up with a cloning of DD, as that being wasn't active during the using of black k, and so they bypassed the effects.

Just an idea and I really don't see it as that complicated. Heck, the use of a personality split rock is confusing, so of course things are going to be more complicated when we're talking about two beings in one body (that changes no less).

[unfocused]

How? I've been thinking about it and and it isn't that hard to explain or understand. I'll explain it again, as I've partly changed the theory.

DD = not active when Davis is around.

Dark side of Davis = active, in the same way the dark side of Lex was active in the early seasons. He doesn't have to transform to become dark Lex, there is always that evil part of him that is conscious.

Since that dark side of the average person is always active, black kryptonite causes a split between the good (active again) and the bad. Since Doomsday isn't active (but instead resting in Davis' genetic makeup unless brought to surface via certain facts like anger) black Kryptonite wouldn't cause a split.

But now you have to explain the events in Crusade, as this theory clashes with how black Kryptonite split Clark and Kal-El of Krypton. I think the most you can get out of your theory would be the reasoning that Lex was human, and Clark was Kryptonian. So the black Kryptonite affected them differently. And even then, black Kryptonite would still separate Doomsday from Davis because he is Kryptonian.

[sithius]

But now you have to explain the events in Crusade, as this theory clashes with how black Kryptonite split Clark and Kal-El of Krypton. I think the most you can get out of your theory would be the reasoning that Lex was human, and Clark was Kryptonian. So the black Kryptonite affected them differently. And even then, black Kryptonite would still separate Doomsday from Davis because he is Kryptonian.

Why though? See my edit.

It's more logical that, under the reasoning employed by the writers for Crusade, Kal-el would have been separated from 'bad Clark', since Kal-el was just normal Clark reprogrammed. There was nothing inherently bad about him.

What I'm trying to say that is the writers completely used it to suit their needs, but the logic behind how it worked wasn't there. You say my theory is complicated, but it makes a lot more sense than what we saw in Crusade. The fact that he is Kryptonian is irrelevant, because the result of its use in that episode was nonsensical.

[SGuthrie27]

Davis isn't a technical hero, and he's certainly not more heroic than Clark, but I can see where you're coming from with your logic, saltyweeks. There is something truly compelling about someone struggling against their inner nature, even knowing their doomed, to be a better person and try to help people rather than destroy them. And yeah, I truly believe he thought he was going to die when he had Chloe douse him with that kryptonite shower. Sad, sad Davis...

--SGuthrie ><>' :)--

[unfocused]

I still think it would just be easier to keep black Kryptonite the way it is. There's no need to go and change how it works. Not at this point. Maybe you don't think it was logical in Crusade, but no one has complained about how black Kryptonite works after seeing that episode and then seeing Onyx.

We all got the impression that black Kryptonite splits a person in two, depending on how that person is divided mentally. I already stated that it doesn't turn a good person into an evil person. It just separates that person where he is divided in his head. For Lex, well we know he's been fighting that good versus evil battle in himself for years prior to having those two sides separated. For Clark, he had a program installed into his mind. Black Kryptonite worked the same way for them both in separating those two mentalities, egos, or personalities, as we have called it. It didn't seem to matter that one of them were fake and implanted, and the other one was genetic.

Again, whether black Kryptonite was illogical in Crusade or illogical in Onyx, doesn't matter. From those two episodes we know what black Kryptonite does, logical or illogical, science fiction or real life. Ask a fan what they think black Kryptonite does, and they will tell you something along the lines of a separation tool that divides a physical body per it's mental state.

So we don't need any other explanation about how black Kryptonite works. But, I'll admit that I would like to see another episode that more clearly defines how it works, the same for other types of Kryptonite. Blue Kryptonite can even be used on Davis to possibly keep him from transforming.

[Skaterpen357]

I'm gonna go ahead and relent on the Black K issue; initially, I didn't even like the idea of Black K used on Davis at all, but if we're going to reconcile "Crusade" and "Onyx," as unfocused theorized, perhaps the effect on Kryptonians is different than it is on humans: while it separates Kryptonian programming from personality, it separates evil humanity from good humanity. Given that Doomsday is not a natural being, and is genetically engineered (programmed), perhaps the whole separating Davis from Doomsday would actually work, in that Doomsday is Davis' "Kal-El," rather than his "Alexander."

Of course, unfocused's theory about how Clark was divided between his life and his destiny while Lex was already mentally divided between good and evil playing into the two episodes is also interesting...

Ultimately, though, I still doubt the writers have Black K in mind, even if it's a prevalent theory among the fanbase, but I'm no genius; Smallville almost always manages to surprise me.

[LoD]

Do Mark's efforts to stop Victory make him a villain? Do Mark's rescues count toward him being a hero?

I get where you're going with this but I think your experiment has one underlying flaw. If Victory was truly good, he would sacrifice himself for the primary personality, Mark, instead of effectively murdering Mark by taking over both his life and body. Mark acts selfishly but is justified, IMO. Not a hero, maybe, but he's standing for good principles. (I think Victory sounds worse than either Mark or Devilman.:lol:)

But I'll ignore that for the moment. Is Mark worse than Devilman? Do Mark's good deeds trump his wicked motivations? Mark acts out of self-preservation while Devilman's motivations are unknown and inconsistent (sadism?). So, on that first question, I think more evidence is needed. But I'll side with the American court system on the second and say intent defines the action. Mark's intent is self-preservation, which is justified, but not heroic.

And I think there's a 3rd option not covered here. Is Mark insane? Is Victory? Because that puts another spin on things. If Mark is nothing more than Victory's hallucination, then Mark's motivations are a lie. (And vice versa.) And, if intent defines action, but intent is perverted by psychosis, then neither Mark nor Victory can be adequately defined as hero or villain yet because their "truest" self (the united self) hasn't been revealed.

[sithius]

I still think it would just be easier to keep black Kryptonite the way it is. There's no need to go and change how it works. Not at this point. Maybe you don't think it was logical in Crusade, but no one has complained about how black Kryptonite works after seeing that episode and then seeing Onyx.

We all got the impression that black Kryptonite splits a person in two, depending on how that person is divided mentally. I already stated that it doesn't turn a good person into an evil person. It just separates that person where he is divided in his head. For Lex, well we know he's been fighting that good versus evil battle in himself for years prior to having those two sides separated. For Clark, he had a program installed into his mind. Black Kryptonite worked the same way for them both in separating those two mentalities, egos, or personalities, as we have called it. It didn't seem to matter that one of them were fake and implanted, and the other one was genetic.

Again, whether black Kryptonite was illogical in Crusade or illogical in Onyx, doesn't matter. From those two episodes we know what black Kryptonite does, logical or illogical, science fiction or real life. Ask a fan what they think black Kryptonite does, and they will tell you something along the lines of a separation tool that divides a physical body per it's mental state.

So we don't need any other explanation about how black Kryptonite works. But, I'll admit that I would like to see another episode that more clearly defines how it works, the same for other types of Kryptonite. Blue Kryptonite can even be used on Davis to possibly keep him from transforming.

Well, when you put it that way, my theory still works. I'm sure Davis isn't perfect, and I'm sure there is a part of him that he fights with in his head, no matter how small (you would surely agree with this, as you yourself have said that he is no Clark) so why would Clark want to risk using black k in case it splits those two Davis' apart? You even said in your post, 'It just separates that person where he is divided in his head' and that is correct, in Davis' head, not DD's head. Why take the chance of creating two DD's? That is a possibility valid enough I think to stop Clark from using it.

[unfocused]

Well, when you put it that way, my theory still works. I'm sure Davis isn't perfect, and I'm sure there is a part of him that he fights with in his head, no matter how small (you would surely agree with this, as you yourself have said that he is no Clark) so why would Clark want to risk using black k in case it splits those two Davis' apart? You even said in your post, 'It just separates that person where he is divided in his head' and that is correct, in Davis' head, not DD's head. Why take the chance of creating two DD's? That is a possibility valid enough I think to stop Clark from using it.

Your theory is valid, but it would have to be forced into the explanation of how black Kryptonite works, changing what we already know. Nothing needs to be forced, because we already have a basic understanding of how black Kryptonite works and we don't need to be told that we have been wrong all these years. Apparently, you want black Kryptonite to work a differently so Davis cannot be extracted from Doomsday....

That old saying, the one that goes "if it ain't broke, don't fix it?" It applies here.

[sithius]

Your theory is valid, but it would have to be forced into the explanation of how black Kryptonite works, changing what we already know. Nothing needs to be forced, because we already have a basic understanding of how black Kryptonite works and we don't need to be told that we have been wrong all these years. Apparently, you want black Kryptonite to work a differently so Davis cannot be extracted from Doomsday....

That old saying, the one that goes "if it ain't broke, don't fix it?" It applies here.

Not really, but I'm trying to give Clark some credit here inside the Smallville universe and I believe this would be his reasoning for not using it.

It's funny actually, we've switched roles of defending Clark in this thread. :lol: Not that I'm saying you're calling Clark stupid, but if you want to take black k as working in this way, then it makes Clark pretty idiotic for not doing anything.

[unfocused]

Credit for what? You made up some random theory that clashes with the already set in stone theory of how black Kryptonite works.

And you're the one calling Clark idiotic, I don't think he is idiotic at all. Whether he uses black Kryptonite or not.

[xrayvision]

I think it would be a noble ending for Davis if Clark uses black-k to save him from his Doomsday side, only to be murdered by his Doomsday side while helping Clark.

As a matter of fact this would be a great setup to Doomsday, especially how the one of the episodes before it is titled Beast. They could have the freeing of the beast in Beast and go on to have Clark vs. Doomsday in Doomsday.

I would think once Davis & Doomsday are seperate beings, Davis would be just another Kryptonian with Doomsday being who he really is---an ancient creature from Krypton's past with the ability to resurrect & become immune to whatever killed him in the past. It is the splicing of Davis' DNA into Doomsday's that makes Davis have Doomsday's ability to return from death.

I think even though Doomsday is weaker in this Smallville form (where he has a duality with a Kryptonian persona, aka Davis) than in a purely Doomsday form, Clark would look better by seperating the 2 sides because it would show him resorting to all other means before considering killing. I would like to see this, especially if they have the black-k cause Kal-El to seperate from Clark as a result. I'm still waiting to see a Clark vs. Kal-El duel, something that we'll probably never see. I wanted to see that in season 7 as 75-80% of Clark's training.

[MrZeppo]

I think it would be a noble ending for Davis if Clark uses black-k to save him from his Doomsday side, only to be murdered by his Doomsday side while helping Clark.

As a matter of fact this would be a great setup to Doomsday, especially how the one of the episodes before it is titled Beast. They could have the freeing of the beast in Beast and go on to have Clark vs. Doomsday in Doomsday.

I would think once Davis & Doomsday are seperate beings, Davis would be just another Kryptonian with Doomsday being who he really is---an ancient creature from Krypton's past with the ability to resurrect & become immune to whatever killed him in the past. It is the splicing of Davis' DNA into Doomsday's that makes Davis have Doomsday's ability to return from death.

I think even though Doomsday is weaker in this Smallville form (where he has a duality with a Kryptonian persona, aka Davis) than in a purely Doomsday form, Clark would look better by seperating the 2 sides because it would show him resorting to all other means before considering killing. I would like to see this, especially if they have the black-k cause Kal-El to seperate from Clark as a result. I'm still waiting to see a Clark vs. Kal-El duel, something that we'll probably never see. I wanted to see that in season 7 as 75-80% of Clark's training.


Truth be told I rather Davis have a tragic ending. His entire life has been tragic, doomed really.

It's like if someone took your loved ones hostage and told you for them to live, you'd have to kill an equal number of people. If you don't, your loved ones die. No one else can save them, not the police, not the FBI, only you. Submit to the demand, and you're a murderer. Refusal to submit, and the people you love die. What do you do?

That's how I see Davis. Forced to do horrible things. But not innocent. Like he said, there is no real redemption for him. He's damned either way.

Between Davis and Doomsday, physically Davis is the weaker side. And we know Davis wants to die. If Clark was forced to kill Davis in his weaker humanoid form, Davis begging him to do it, that would be a weakness Doomsday can evolve beyond. However Davis would be destroyed forever. Consumed by the beast.

My problem here is I REALLY like this Davis/Doomsday storyline. The tragedy of the situation is sad. And if Davis "dies" this season and we lose Sam, I don't understand how Doomsday would be interesting Season. It's the Davis storyline that has me hooked.

In the end, in that final battle, I rather Clark have the heroic spotlight by himself. He's already going to be sharing it with the League and Rokk, I rather he not have to share it with Davis too.

[saltyweeks]

My problem here is I REALLY like this Davis/Doomsday storyline. The tragedy of the situation is sad. And if Davis "dies" this season and we lose Sam, I don't understand how Doomsday would be interesting Season. It's the Davis storyline that has me hooked.

very similar to how i feel :)

[sithius]

Credit for what? You made up some random theory that clashes with the already set in stone theory of how black Kryptonite works.

And you're the one calling Clark idiotic, I don't think he is idiotic at all. Whether he uses black Kryptonite or not.

How does it clash? Please explain. My reasoning even employed your quotes, and worked around your post... because notice how after you explained it separates that person where they are divided in their head, I altered my theory to make both the Crusade and Onyx use of black-k consistent with each other and plausible.

And I never called Clark idiotic. I'm giving a reason for why Clark wouldn't risk using it. My theory expands and explains black k in detail, giving it a logically stable base in how it works.

[unfocused]

I believe there was already a logical stable base for how black Kryptonite works, even if there wasn't much known about it. I think you're just over analyzing it to find faults in it. Which is ok but really not necessary because we don't even have enough information on how it works to actually say "it can't do what we have seen it do."

As far as we know, Kryptonite does work differently on humans than Kryptonians, which was made pretty evident during Smallville's meteor freak days.

I'm sticking to my stance. There's no need to retcon black Kryptonite, as we already know it will split Davis from Doomsday.

[SnowBird]

I believe there was already a logical stable base for how black Kryptonite works, even if there wasn't much known about it. I think you're just over analyzing it to find faults in it. Which is ok but really not necessary because we don't even have enough information on how it works to actually say "it can't do what we have seen it do."

As far as we know, Kryptonite does work differently on humans than Kryptonians, which was made pretty evident during Smallville's meteor freak days.

I'm sticking to my stance. There's no need to retcon black Kryptonite, as we already know it will split Davis from Doomsday.

ITA

[sithius]

I believe there was already a logical stable base for how black Kryptonite works, even if there wasn't much known about it. I think you're just over analyzing it to find faults in it. Which is ok but really not necessary because we don't even have enough information on how it works to actually say "it can't do what we have seen it do."

As far as we know, Kryptonite does work differently on humans than Kryptonians, which was made pretty evident during Smallville's meteor freak days.

I'm sticking to my stance. There's no need to retcon black Kryptonite, as we already know it will split Davis from Doomsday.

I don't agree, but that's rather evident. We can't say for certain it would split Davis from Doomsday, they are two different beings (physically) where as Kal-El and Clark weren't, so the fact that they are both Kryptonian is irrelevant to your assertion. I didn't really see a difference between Crusader and Onyx, both involved a 'split of the persons mind' so to speak, as you pointed out. The difference is, there are two brains (physically), not one, with Davis and Doomsday.

Anyway we're going to just end up going in circles so we'll just agree to disagree.

[chlo-el]

Hey debaters. I really do think Black K would work since Davis is KRyptonian but they created the "camaflauge" part to be human. So it work on his human side seperating the Kryptonian part and the human part. Just my two cents.

[Bizarrolover]

Hey debaters. I really do think Black K would work since Davis is KRyptonian but they created the "camaflauge" part to be human. So it work on his human side seperating the Kryptonian part and the human part. Just my two cents.

If Davis and Doomsday become two separate beings, what would be Davis' purpose on the show?

[sithius]

Hey debaters. I really do think Black K would work since Davis is KRyptonian but they created the "camaflauge" part to be human. So it work on his human side seperating the Kryptonian part and the human part. Just my two cents.

Yes, but Doomsday also has a different brain to Davis. Look at the change his body undergoes in the transformation, it's clear that his brain changes too. Whereas Kal'el and Clark were both sharing the same physical brain.

Next thing you know Doomsday will not kill Chloe because of his shared affection to her thanks to Davis. That would be ridiculous.

Anyway, I'm done debating about this, as my other post stated. At the end of the day it could work either way, but I'm just trying to give a reason for Clark not using it, and I see it as a perfectly logical reason. :)

[unfocused]

It would be ridiculous for Doomsday to not kill Chloe?

If Davis and Doomsday become two separate beings, what would be Davis' purpose on the show?

There are any number of possibilities. Davis has superhuman strength, he is immortal and grows stronger when he dies. He is basically Doomsday with a conscience and a human form. He may not be as strong and evil as Doomsday, but he is becoming more comfortable with death and murder. He would make a great anti hero for Clark to deal with, as we already see him having a good side to his Davis persona, while battling with morally gray issues.

Davis could provide much needed depth to the series. He is gaining a larger fanbase as this season goes on. He has fit in well with the show, yet he hasn't had much interaction with Clark. We wouldn't need an extra actor replacing the Davis role, since we are most likely going to lose many main characters and actors at the end of this season. If we do, we're going to have a season nine with more than half of the cast changed.

I'd prefer keeping as many actors as possible. But it's not likely that Sam will return.

[Bizarrolover]

It would be ridiculous for Doomsday to not kill Chloe?


There are any number of possibilities. Davis has superhuman strength, he is immortal and grows stronger when he dies. He is basically Doomsday with a conscience and a human form. He may not be as strong and evil as Doomsday, but he is becoming more comfortable with death and murder. He would make a great anti hero for Clark to deal with, as we already see him having a good side to his Davis persona, while battling with morally gray issues.

Davis could provide much needed depth to the series. He is gaining a larger fanbase as this season goes on. He has fit in well with the show, yet he hasn't had much interaction with Clark. We wouldn't need an extra actor replacing the Davis role, since we are most likely going to lose many main characters and actors at the end of this season. If we do, we're going to have a season nine with more than half of the cast changed.

I'd prefer keeping as many actors as possible. But it's not likely that Sam will return.

I think immortality, resurrection, coming back stronger from death are definitively Doomsday traits and I think those traits will remain in the Doomsday persona in case both are separated. Davis will be just another handsome paramedic with no other purpose than to being Chloe's love interest for the season. Unless he could assist for the JL or something.

I also think most of his increasing fanbase has a lot to do with Chloe and his relationship with her. I'm sure that, if they somehow end their love affair, Davis' will loose some of his fanbase that are only interested in seeing Chlavis.

[unfocused]

Davis is Kryptonian to. He's not human and he never was.

And I'd like to think Sam Witwer is talented enough to gain his own fans. I don't see anyone saying Chloe has a fanbase only because she is Clark's friend, though that might even be true to.

[Bizarrolover]

Davis is Kryptonian to. He's not human and he never was.

And I'd like to think Sam Witwer is talented enough to gain his own fans. I don't see anyone saying Chloe has a fanbase only because she is Clark's friend, though that might even be true to.

I know he has his own fans, but I also know many people like him because he's Chloe's hot boyfriend.

Honestly, I can't imagine a snow with two kryptonians around. I never liked when Kara was there and I think another superhuman around will be written at Clark's expense, as it usually happens. Maybe it would be fun to have Davis during a specific arc of 3/5 episodes, but a series regular, hmm, I don't know.

[unfocused]

He's a series regular this season, and as we all know, this seasons been pretty fantastic so far...

[Bizarrolover]

I loved the first half of the season, but the 2nd one not so much. Chloomsday story took over Clark's, who seems to be backpedalling since Legion. I'm not very interested in Davis' arc or his relationship with Chloe and they seem to be consuming all the screen time lately.

[unfocused]

I know what you mean. I have always felt that Doomsday/Davis was way above Chloe and his character was being wasted on her. But I have loved his interaction with Clark, and I find his connection with him very intriguing. This is why I think I'd enjoy Davis next season as an anti hero fighting his own demons, instead of Doomsday, who should be Clark's demon.

[saltyweeks]

Davis could provide much needed depth to the series. He is gaining a larger fanbase as this season goes on. He has fit in well with the show, yet he hasn't had much interaction with Clark. We wouldn't need an extra actor replacing the Davis role, since we are most likely going to lose many main characters and actors at the end of this season.

:p big agreement here!!

i hate to lose Davis. it would make me sad.

lose Chloe and i'll be catatonic for a month.

[Bizarrolover]

I know what you mean. I have always felt that Doomsday/Davis was way above Chloe and his character was being wasted on her. But I have loved his interaction with Clark, and I find his connection with him very intriguing. This is why I think I'd enjoy Davis next season as an anti hero fighting his own demons, instead of Doomsday, who should be Clark's demon.

In that case, yes, but I know they will hook up with her and once again and Clark will come second. The writers are too fascinated with triangles to let this one pass.

[unfocused]

I don't blame the writers for the love triangles. I blame the drama queen girl power CW network, for that one. I can tell that these showrunners want nothing more than a real superhero story. I'm actually very proud of them this year, dropping all that old childish stuff from season 7 and before. At the beginning of season 8, we were told that there will be a love triangle between Clark, Lois and Tess... I threw up in my mouth when I read that...

Thankfully, though, that didn't pan out. It was only slight flirting on Tess' part. Had AlMiles been running the show, we'd have another Clark/Lana/Chloe triangle... These new producers gave us the Red Blue Blur, so I am happy.

(By the way, I am under the impression that the Lana arc was just to satisfy KK and give Lana a send off that she approved of. I don't blame the writers for that arc either)

[saltyweeks]

I blame the drama queen girl power CW network

hee, hee :p and lots of disagreement here. i love the powerful women on Smallville. :D

[xrayvision]

He's already going to be sharing it with the League and Rokk, I rather he not have to share it with Davis too.

Oh man, I did not need to hear that. If that's true, it's going to kill the episode for me. Unfortunately, it looks like Clark will have help & the entire thing with Doomsday being Clark's personal "island" as mentioned in Toxic will be out the window and pointless. I cringe every time I hear about the League or LOSH, especially that late in the season.

Also, as interesting as Davis has been, one thing that turns me off about the character is how he makes this season be a lot more about Chloe than it should have been. We really did not get too much Clark-Davis interaction. We barely got any in Instinct, got the most in Prey, and got a decent amount in Eternal. Besides that, they didn't really deal with each other & Davis took a lot of the focus off Clark.

[saltyweeks]

one thing that turns me off about the character is how he makes this season be a lot more about Chloe than it should have been

not really possible to do for me:p

[sithius]

It would be ridiculous for Doomsday to not kill Chloe?



Yes, it would. I see Doomsday as pure darkness, not a monster who has the capability to love. If they go down that route, that's fine, but they must change the name from Doomsday, because I like to follow the creature known as Doomsday from the comics, not this alternate version if they so choose to run with it. It's sort of like if Clark stayed as the red blue blur, and didn't become Superman. I wouldn't enjoy it at all.

If you've seen Buffy the Vampire Slayer, you'll know that Glory from season 5 shared a body (that transforms) with this guy, but the name passes me at the moment. They are completely separate. I'd like it to be that way for Davis. I would not appreciate a sharing of emotions one bit.

[unfocused]

Sorry, I never cared for Buffy.

It doesn't matter to me if Chloe lives or dies. Davis is already pure darkness, in my eyes. I am satisfied with the creature, though I think I would actually enjoy seeing him ripping Chloe apart, lol. But that's just a personal issue.

[chlo-el]

Yes, but Doomsday also has a different brain to Davis. Look at the change his body undergoes in the transformation, it's clear that his brain changes too. Whereas Kal'el and Clark were both sharing the same physical brain.

Next thing you know Doomsday will not kill Chloe because of his shared affection to her thanks to Davis. That would be ridiculous.

Anyway, I'm done debating about this, as my other post stated. At the end of the day it could work either way, but I'm just trying to give a reason for Clark not using it, and I see it as a perfectly logical reason. :)

Yeah, it would def. be a reason for Clark not use it. I do think that Davis entity makes Doomsday have feelings for Chloe that was shown in Bride when he said Chloe's name and carried her gently and didn't hurt her.

But with out Davis Doomsday would be the ultimate killing machine. That's why I think Clark wouldn't use it right a way or if he did he would use it while havine close and quick access to the phantom zone. To just put Doomsday in here once their seperated. But it would make Doomsday more like the Doomsday from the comics.

[SnowBird]

I loved the first half of the season, but the 2nd one not so much. Chloomsday story took over Clark's, who seems to be backpedalling since Legion. I'm not very interested in Davis' arc or his relationship with Chloe and they seem to be consuming all the screen time lately.

The first half was great...They are giving a lot of time to Davis/DD and Chloe story. Since they are trying to keep Clark away from Davis till the Clark/DD battle it is making Clark the B story-line and I'm not too happy about him taking the back seat...I was afraid of Ollie/Green Arrow taking time away from Clark which didn't happen. I was blind sided with Chloe going to the side of the enemy and becoming such a big deal. I'm looking forward to Davis disappearing when Doomsday takes control with an end in site with this story arc...I hope Clark never has to take the back seat to another character ever again!

[Smallville Gone Bizarr]

No Not Really, he kills Everyday!

[saltyweeks]

Sorry, I never cared for Buffy.

It doesn't matter to me if Chloe lives or dies. Davis is already pure darkness, in my eyes. I am satisfied with the creature, though I think I would actually enjoy seeing him ripping Chloe apart, lol.

grrrrrrrrrr arrrrrrggghhhhh:mad: two strikes!:lol:

[BlacKryptonitian]

I see Doomsday as pure darkness, not a monster who has the capability to love.

Doomsday isn't the epitome of pure evil, or as you put it "pure darkness", he is actually the result of unfettered science gone awry.

He is the end result of ancient Kryptonian crimes against nature, a product of their countless hellish "forced evolution" experiments in order to create the ultimate life-form. And as such, the creature hates all Kryptonians. Including Clark, who is sometimes also referred as "The Last Son of Krypton". And who could blame him.

He seeks out and kills not because he’s “evil” –a word some here erroneously and mindlessly tend to repeat form time-to-time, but because that is what he was bred to do by Kal-El’s forefathers – the real monsters IMHO.

In fact, Doomsday has no notion of right & wrong and thereby good & evil. He is only driven by a deep seeded hate for other lifeforms due to the inhuman treatment he had received at the hands of the Kryptonians and an unrelenting need to survive.

This doesn’t mean however that one can condone or excuse the acts of Doomsday, but only understand them.

However, mindless prognostication on the part of some narrow-minded individuals calling Doomsday “Satan” or “pure evil” is idiotic at best and thereby says more about the deductive reasoning capabilities of those making such ignorant comments than about Doomsday himself. Because as I stated earlier Doomsday for one isn’t even capable of distinguishing between right & wrong… Doomsday for a lack of a better term is in fact the epitome of PURE RAGE and nothing more. He was and is the perfect predator because he was bred that way, much as a shark is considered the prefect predator in the ocean or a lion on land. And one would never consider either of those animals evil, would they? <O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p

[BadToad]

not really possible to do for me

Now that explains a lot.

[sithius]

In fact, Doomsday has no notion of right & wrong and thereby good & evil. He is only driven by a deep seeded hate for other lifeforms due to the inhuman treatment he had received at the hands of the Kryptonians and an unrelenting need to survive.

How is that not pure darkness? Whether or not he has a choice is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that he is pure darkness, he is absolutely everything that we humans should aspire not to be.

If you know anything about determinism (a philosophical concept), then you would know that free will is nonexistent. That wouldn't mean, Hitler for example, wasn't evil. Choice has little to do with an overall evaluation of someones goodness, and Doomsday certainly has none of that, thus leaving me to my overall judgment of 'pure darkness'.

[saltyweeks]

Now that explains a lot.

guilty as charged, BadToad :p

[MrZeppo]

Oh man, I did not need to hear that. If that's true, it's going to kill the episode for me. Unfortunately, it looks like Clark will have help & the entire thing with Doomsday being Clark's personal "island" as mentioned in Toxic will be out the window and pointless. I cringe every time I hear about the League or LOSH, especially that late in the season.

Also, as interesting as Davis has been, one thing that turns me off about the character is how he makes this season be a lot more about Chloe than it should have been. We really did not get too much Clark-Davis interaction. We barely got any in Instinct, got the most in Prey, and got a decent amount in Eternal. Besides that, they didn't really deal with each other & Davis took a lot of the focus off Clark.


Fear not xray ol' buddy. I suspect ultimately the battle will be focused on the Clark vs Doomsday/Davis. I speculate at this, but I believe Doomsday will take on the League and Clark right at the end of "Instinct". For the first half hour of "Doomsday", Doomsday/Davis will beat down the JLA, knock them around without much fuss, and will ultimately have to fight Clark in the last half hour. It will show how deadly he is, it's a bit of a setup for the big fight, like they did in the comics.

Even though Rokk is going to be there, I don't believe he'd intefere. It could irrevocabley change his own history and I believe it's against Legion code. I suspect he's there to observe, maybe because he just met his hero in "Legion" and couldn't help but watch this pivotal moment in Clark's life. I imagine Clark will see him watching the battle from the sidelines and in a moment where the two of them are alone he will ask him what happens, which Rokk will refuse to do. I imagine this will piss off Clark. For some reason I suspect all Rokk will admit to Clark will be that he dies. I hope not though, I want Clark to make that choice for himself, maybe Rokk says it sadly after Clark superspeeds away.

I kind of understand all the Chloe-centered nature. If they showed more Davis/Clark interaction, that should drive Doomsday out faster, and we'd have seen them battling it out in "Legion". Plus I think Allison probably wanted a meatier role, and it keeps Davis somewhat close to Clark via Chloe. It sets up some tension at having the two finally on screen together. Like in "Eternal"? Wow, I was really happy how that all unfolded and how Clark found out about Davis. Maybe it should have happened sooner, but nevertheless I enjoyed it. And I don't think I'd have enjoyed it as much if it had happened earlier in the season.

[xrayvision]

I hope you're right MrZeppo.

By the way, you meant Injustice instead of Instinct, right? I would love it if my theory on Lex's body being transformed by Zatanna's father to look like Oliver (just like Zatanna did to Chloe with Lois' body) comes true in Injustice. But I doubt we'd be that lucky. It would be awesome if Lex-as-Oliver would head the team Tess assembled for him as a sniper wearing the Green Arrow's outfit (by circumstance, since he wouldn't know Ollie is the GA), but in black & purple colors.

[jpfort1957]

I wonder how Davis grew up in the Smallville area and never notice the abundant meteor rock had any effect on him. Untill they actually killed him, green K should have had the same effect on him as Clark.

[Davis Bloome]

I accept your apology.

My choice of a serial killer to compare Davis to wasn't randomly chosen. In the Smallville universe Jack the Ripper was a logical choice. We'll see how exaggerated my comparison of Jack the Ripper is to Davis.

Last season the episode Cure was the story of a neurosurgeon played by Dean Cain. He was hired by Lex to operate on the meteor infected healing them. I can't remember his name but his initials were CK on his hankerchief. Some of the women he was suppose to heal ended up on the operating table where he took internal body parts to use for his girlfriend with the bee girl being the last.

Chloe wanted to be healed from her meteor infection so she contacted the doctor to operate on her. He wanted her heart and she called him a Jack the Ripper wanna be. He replied that he was Jack the Ripper. (Lex said he had been many people over the centuries.)

Comparisons of Davis and Jack the Ripper:

1) Both are immortal
2) Both think they are killing to save a person(s)
3) Both have put Chloe in danger of being killed.
4) Both have used Chloe for selfish reasons.
5) Clark saved Chloe from the doctor. He may again from Davis/DD(?)
6) Dr. CK/Jack the Ripper was taken by Martian Manhunter to protect humanity.
I predict Davis turned Doomsday will be taken somewhere to protect humanity.

I don't think that I'm that far off as a comparison. What do you think?
Sorry for the late reply, I'm on holiday. The comparisson is flawed cause your comparing a fictional Jack the Ripper with the actual Jack the Ripper and we're mostly talking about details here not about essential character traits.

[Bizarrolover]

Sorry for the late reply, I'm on holiday. The comparisson is flawed cause your comparing a fictional Jack the Ripper with the actual Jack the Ripper and we're mostly talking about details here not about essential character traits.

I think the comparison Snowbird made is valid as in SV -and other media- Jack the ripper is considered a fictional character (Smallville's Curtix Knox). Even Star Treck explored the subjcet once, saying that JtR was an alien organism that nurtured itself from the victim's fear and that resided on Earth during the time of the deaths and then travelling across the galaxy finding new victims to feed his thirst for terror.

The original Jack the ripper was never caught, in fact, the name is a pseudonym, the investigations of that time lead nowhere and historians suggested that the crimes that were imputed to JtR were in fact commited by different criminals. He's not a real person, he's more like an urban myth. The deaths indeed happened, but no one could tell for sure if this mysterious man was responsible for them. His popularity comes more from what was written in tabloids and not the actual investigations. In fact, there are speculations about copycat deaths like the ones imputed to JtR happening for decades, feeding even more this urban legend, making some people believe he is indeed immortal. That's why SV used the character so liberally. Curtix Knox's character was based in Jack the Ripper, the urban legend.

[unfocused]

The comparisson is flawed cause your comparing a fictional Jack the Ripper with the actual Jack the Ripper and we're mostly talking about details here not about essential character traits.

Can you at least point out the flaws in her comparisons, instead of just saying they are flawed?

[SnowBird]

Sorry for the late reply, I'm on holiday. The comparisson is flawed cause your comparing a fictional Jack the Ripper with the actual Jack the Ripper and we're mostly talking about details here not about essential character traits.

I don't see the problem with comparing a fictional Jack the Ripper with a fictional Davis. They are both in the fictional story of Smallville.

[Davis Bloome]

Well because fictional serial killers are first very different from actual serial killers. The actual Jack the Ripper was an actual person who most likely killed women because he hated women. Davis doesn't hate his victims, though most likely he doesn't like them either. Anyway the motif to kill is essential in the comparisson, don't you think? Whether its the fictional one or the actual one. The fictual one did it to save his wife, for selfish reasons. I don't think Davis kills for selfish reasons. He's trying to save others from death. While his action to do so can't be approved his reason is unlike the one of the fictional or actual Jack the Ripper.

[Autumn]

Well because fictional serial killers are first very different from actual serial killers. The actual Jack the Ripper was an actual person who most likely killed women because he hated women. Davis doesn't hate his victims, though most likely he doesn't like them either. Anyway the motif to kill is essential in the comparisson, don't you think? Whether its the fictional one or the actual one. The fictual one did it to save his wife, for selfish reasons. I don't think Davis kills for selfish reasons. He's trying to save others from death. While his action to do so can't be approved his reason is unlike the one of the fictional or actual Jack the Ripper.

I agree.

[unfocused]

Actually, it does make a lot more sense to compare Davis to Jack the Ripper instead of Clark. He's definitely more like JtR than Clark. The real JtR and even the fictional JtR. And especially Curtis Knox's JtR.

Is Davis more heroic than Jack the Ripper? haha, that's a more suitable question for this thread :lol:

[Bizarrolover]

Well because fictional serial killers are first very different from actual serial killers. The actual Jack the Ripper was an actual person who most likely killed women because he hated women. Davis doesn't hate his victims, though most likely he doesn't like them either. Anyway the motif to kill is essential in the comparisson, don't you think? Whether its the fictional one or the actual one. The fictual one did it to save his wife, for selfish reasons. I don't think Davis kills for selfish reasons. He's trying to save others from death. While his action to do so can't be approved his reason is unlike the one of the fictional or actual Jack the Ripper.

So Davis kills in order to save people from dying? isn't that a bit contradictory? To say that killing people in order to say lives is right is a fallacy, I'm sorry, I can't agree with that logic. I think that, at this point, Davis killed more criminals in his supposedly 'soothing' murders than Doomsday in his random attacks.

[Skaterpen357]

So Davis kills in order to save people from dying? isn't that a bit contradictory? To say that killing people in order to say lives is right is a fallacy, I'm sorry, I can't agree with that logic. I think that, at this point, Davis killed more criminals in his supposedly 'soothing' murders than Doomsday in his random attacks.
Well, I gotta say, even if I don't subscribe to that logic, it's the same mentality behind so-called "righteous" wars; kill enemy combatants to save innocents and such. As for the body count, don't think of it as Davis' count vs. Doomsday's count--think about it in terms of Davis' count vs. what Doomsday's count would be without Davis' actions. Davis isn't trying to "subtract" anything to counteract Doomsday; he's adding a few murders to prevent many.

Once again, criminals don't deserve to die, but really. Were you in Davis' situation, would you go ahead and let Doomsday go just to leave your hands clean?

[SnowBird]

Well because fictional serial killers are first very different from actual serial killers. The actual Jack the Ripper was an actual person who most likely killed women because he hated women. Davis doesn't hate his victims, though most likely he doesn't like them either. Anyway the motif to kill is essential in the comparisson, don't you think? Whether its the fictional one or the actual one. The fictual one did it to save his wife, for selfish reasons.

.....I don't think Davis kills for selfish reasons. He's trying to save others from death. While his action to do so can't be approved his reason is unlike the one of the fictional or actual Jack the Ripper.....

If you were Davis' lawyer and you gave this argument to a judge, I don't think it would save Davis from the death penality.

[smallvillerocks45]

Well because fictional serial killers are first very different from actual serial killers. The actual Jack the Ripper was an actual person who most likely killed women because he hated women. Davis doesn't hate his victims, though most likely he doesn't like them either. Anyway the motif to kill is essential in the comparisson, don't you think? Whether its the fictional one or the actual one. The fictual one did it to save his wife, for selfish reasons. I don't think Davis kills for selfish reasons. He's trying to save others from death. While his action to do so can't be approved his reason is unlike the one of the fictional or actual Jack the Ripper.

Many of Davis Bloome's motives are totally selfish. Davis says he kills because he doesn't want to become a monster - which may be true - but come on, the only thing that can save him is Chloe and his desire/attraction/love for her... What about love for humanity? It doesn't seem like he's trying very hard then to fight the beast - at least not because it's the right thing to do, but because Chloe will reject him if he becomes this monster and kills Clark.

I'd chalk up his claims to save the world from a beast as a fringe benefit, at best, because at the end of the day, I think he knows that killing is killing and he is a killer no matter what - even if the victims are typically menaces to society.

I've got to say that at the end of the day, I do feel bad for the guy. It must be hard to live in a mind set that says the only way to fight destiny is to kill - while not realizing that by killing, he is still fulfilling his destiny... but that doesn't mean he isn't selfish.

[unfocused]

Davis doesn't even kill people that deserve death. He kills people that have committed crimes or are in the act of committing crimes. Crimes like robberies. And sometimes he doesn't even do that much. He murdered a nun, and unless she was a very very bad nun, I cannot see any reason he'd do that.

He also murdered Linda Lake, who was no danger to anyone. And he murdered her before he knew it would suppress the beast.

[DigitalKing]

Davis doesn't even kill people that deserve death. He kills people that have committed crimes or are in the act of committing crimes. Crimes like robberies. And sometimes he doesn't even do that much. He murdered a nun, and unless she was a very very bad nun, I cannot see any reason he'd do that.The nun was murdered presumably by Doomsday; this was before Davis started killing people.
He also murdered Linda Lake, who was no danger to anyone. And he murdered her before he knew it would suppress the beast.His eyes were going red; I'm not entirely sure he had complete control over himself at the time. I'm a little confused at why people say Davis is selfish. Would they rather have him doom out and massacre a bunch of people so he can say his hands are clean (the single most selfish thing he could be doing)? Would they rather have him move to the desert so when he dooms out because there's no one around he'll just super-speed back to civilization and kill other people? What are the two most recent decisions Davis has made? 1: suicide and 2: exile with Chloe in the basement. The latter of the two has been proven to work at least temporarily. How is this selfish?

[Autumn]

The nun was murdered presumably by Doomsday; this was before Davis started killing people. His eyes were going red; I'm not entirely sure he had complete control over himself at the time. I'm a little confused at why people say Davis is selfish. Would they rather have him doom out and massacre a bunch of people so he can say his hands are clean (the single most selfish thing he could be doing)? Would they rather have him move to the desert so when he dooms out because there's no one around he'll just super-speed back to civilization and kill other people? What are the two most recent decisions Davis has made? 1: suicide and 2: exile with Chloe in the basement. The latter of the two has been proven to work at least temporarily. How is this selfish?

Beats me. :confused: Davis is NOT selfish.

[unfocused]

Allison Mack called Davis a "master manipulator," and spoilers for the coming episodes seem to be hinting at this to. I actually can't wait to see Davis' true side. I personally believe he has accepted his destiny already and is now just using Chloe so he can have some leverage when that inevitable battle begins between he and Clark.


The nun was murdered presumably by Doomsday
You "presume?" Well I presume Davis was at confession, for other murders he committed, and then decided to kill a nun and steal her rosary while he was out.


this was before Davis started killing people. His eyes were going red; I'm not entirely sure he had complete control over himself at the time.
Oh, Davis had control over himself. When was the last time you saw Doomsday kill a person with a pillow? :lol:

I'm starting to think Jack the Ripper was more of a hero than Davis :rolleyes:

[SnowBird]

James, I like the way you think...Davis won't be able to stop destiny and he will be the monster that we know. Davis will just be an after thought when Doomsday finally is here for good. DD has a prominent place in the Superman story as the ONLY one to kill Superman. SV Davis is only a blip on the history screen of Doomsday. If you can respect a villain, I choose Doomsday over Davis because DD is killing because it is bred into him. Davis is consciously killing for selfish reasons. He wants to be with Chloe without turning into a monster when he is with her. Goodbye Davis, see you around Metroplis when you are fully Doomsday.

[saltyweeks]

It doesn't seem like he's trying very hard then to fight the beast - at least not because it's the right thing to do

i would think assisted suicide qualifies as trying very hard. unless you think (as some people seem to do-- and i don't know why except to hate on Davis) that Davis knew the kryptonite wouldn't kill him, he was willing to let himself die the SECOND that he figured out that there was a way to do.

previously he had channeled the beast's rage as best he could-- but he JUMPS at the chance to kill himself when he remembers the green rocks in the mansion. if he'd have known it before, he'd have tried THAT instead of going the "killing criminals" direction. letting yourself die for the greater good of humanity is the ultimate self-sacrifice! how the heck is that NOT heroic?

Davis is on par or worse than Jack the Ripper? wow. i mean, wow. i don't think so.

would Jack the Ripper, in any version of the story or myth, have felt the regrets and pain Davis does? there is no comparison because Davis is being compelled AGAINST his will, while the Ripper murders to feed his own desires or needs or psychosis. Davis is actually an anti-ripper, trying to first redirect and then (as soon as he finds out he can) destroy the killer even though it means destroying himself.

sure, all of these events, the guilt, the power, and the immortality may change Davis in the future, and if it does i'll make a different judgment about him at that time. but up to NOW, Davis has acted far more heroically than some of you are giving him credit for. at the very least, he is no run-of-the-mill serial killer out to satisfy his own needs-- unless you simply can't view Davis and Doomsday as two different people, which some folks apparently can't.

[mistaguitarmasta]

Davis more heroic than Clark? Tell me you're joking. Have you forgotten where this show is eventually going? \S/

[chlo-el]

Well, was is more heroic fighting your desitny of being a villain or fighting your destiny to be a hero?

In that way Davis is more heroic then Clark has been.

I think they are both heroic and it's just tragic that they are saying basically you don't have a choice nature wins out and the actual choices you make don't even matter.

Davis said it didn't matter what was in his heart but it matterd what he done and what he was going to do. But then later it was like he was being disproved having Chloe being able to tame him because of his feelings for her absolutely shows that it does matter what is in your heart.

[saltyweeks]

:) absolutely chlo-el!!

[chlo-el]

James, I like the way you think...Davis won't be able to stop destiny and he will be the monster that we know. Davis will just be an after thought when Doomsday finally is here for good. DD has a prominent place in the Superman story as the ONLY one to kill Superman. SV Davis is only a blip on the history screen of Doomsday. If you can respect a villain, I choose Doomsday over Davis because DD is killing because it is bred into him. Davis is consciously killing for selfish reasons. He wants to be with Chloe without turning into a monster when he is with her. Goodbye Davis, see you around Metroplis when you are fully Doomsday.

Wow. Davis is killing for selfish reasons? Seriously? He killed to make sure the monster didn't come out so more innocents wouldn't die. How is that selfish? And how is not wanting to be a monster and killing countless of innocents selfish? It's not exactly selfless sure since he does want to be with Chloe but it isn't selfish. He knew that Chloe had that effect on him and yet he was willing to die then make her be with him to save people. And he didn't tell Chloe about it until there weren't much options left. I guess he could have still be roaming a lone killing people to tame the Beast but chose to try something else to lock himself away from the world and with Chloe to help tame him.

Not exactly selfish to me.

[CloisFan17]

I agree with you & even though I love Clark I do think that Davis is more Heroic

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----

I agree with you Chlo-el

[chlo-el]

i would think assisted suicide qualifies as trying very hard. unless you think (as some people seem to do-- and i don't know why except to hate on Davis) that Davis knew the kryptonite wouldn't kill him, he was willing to let himself die the SECOND that he figured out that there was a way to do.

previously he had channeled the beast's rage as best he could-- but he JUMPS at the chance to kill himself when he remembers the green rocks in the mansion. if he'd have known it before, he'd have tried THAT instead of going the "killing criminals" direction. letting yourself die for the greater good of humanity is the ultimate self-sacrifice! how the heck is that NOT heroic?

Davis is on par or worse than Jack the Ripper? wow. i mean, wow. i don't think so.

would Jack the Ripper, in any version of the story or myth, have felt the regrets and pain Davis does? there is no comparison because Davis is being compelled AGAINST his will, while the Ripper murders to feed his own desires or needs or psychosis. Davis is actually an anti-ripper, trying to first redirect and then (as soon as he finds out he can) destroy the killer even though it means destroying himself.

sure, all of these events, the guilt, the power, and the immortality may change Davis in the future, and if it does i'll make a different judgment about him at that time. but up to NOW, Davis has acted far more heroically than some of you are giving him credit for. at the very least, he is no run-of-the-mill serial killer out to satisfy his own needs-- unless you simply can't view Davis and Doomsday as two different people, which some folks apparently can't.

I completely agree. Davis may change for the worst but as of "Eternal" he was still fighting the monster within.

[CloisFan17]

yeah & it seems like the more he fights the better it gets for him

especially with Chloe :)

[unfocused]

Well, was is more heroic fighting your desitny of being a villain or fighting your destiny to be a hero?

In that way Davis is more heroic then Clark has been.

I've never seen Clark fight his destiny of being a hero. He's been a hero since Pilot. On the other hand, Davis is embracing his destiny of being a killer. ;)

And by the end of this season, Jack the Ripper will be more heroic than Davis.

[chlo-el]

I've never seen Clark fight his destiny of being a hero. He's been a hero since Pilot. On the other hand, Davis is embracing his destiny of being a killer. ;)

And by the end of this season, Jack the Ripper will be more heroic than Davis.

Really? how about all of those times when he said that he would rather be normal and then be a hero. In Mortal he told Chloe he was done with that life so he could have a normal life with Lana. And in s7 he was doing the same thing. he would save the people he cared about when they fell on his lap but he was always fighting being a hero.

And please Jack the Ripper seemd to have a choice and Davis hasn't and he has sooo fought against being a villian. He was willing to kill himself so he wouldn't be forced to kill more people. I doubt Jack the ripper ever was willing to die other then kill more people.

And the SV's version of him didn't care about anyone but himself and his love and willing to hurt people so they could be together. Davis was willing to kill himself rather then tell Chloe there was another way and if they were together it would stop the monster. But he didn't he wasn't putting his love for one person before all others. That is what Curtus Knox (aka Jack the Ripper) was doing.

And at times it is what Clark has done. Clark felt for Curtus own perdicament going crazy for one woman living forever alone. Afraid something similar would happen to him. And they were times when he put his feelings above all else whether it was the best for everyone or not.

I'm not saying these thing make Clark a villian it just showed him fighting his heroic destiny for a long time.

[unfocused]

So... when exactly was Clark not being a hero? That's right. He's always been a hero.

Davis lied to Chloe about her keeping the beast inside while she was with him. So, yes, he is just as selfish as Jack the Ripper/Curtis Knox ;)

And Davis is not a hero, he not as heroic or even close to being as heroic as Clark, AND Jack the Ripper is more heroic than Davis.

[chlo-el]

So... when exactly was Clark not being a hero? That's right. He's always been a hero.

Davis lied to Chloe about her keeping the beast inside while she was with him. So, yes, he is just as selfish as Jack the Ripper/Curtis Knox ;)

And Davis is not a hero, he not as heroic or even close to being as heroic as Clark, AND Jack the Ripper is more heroic than Davis.

Please. We could go in circles for a long time. But Jack the Ripper is not more heroic because he doesn't fight killing people he chose to kill people.

And clark has kept plenty of secrets to protect people and afraid they might see him as a monster or something and that is exactly what Davis was doing w/ Clark.

And again I'm not saying that Clark isn't hreroic but that he has fought against it for years.

All that they are showing is that Davis doesn't want to be a villian any more then Clark ever wanted to be a hero but they are both destined /doomed to do it no matter what the desires of their heart are. Which is extreamly depressing saying that destiny always trumps everything and your actualy choices don't matter.

[unfocused]

Clark has never fought against being heroic. He has never chose to NOT save a person. You're getting confused with the Clark that doesn't want to rule the Earth. That's the destiny he was fighting, lol. He never said he would stop saving people. Even in a normal life, he would save people.

If Davis can't even be more of a hero than Jack the Ripper, he's nothing compared to Clark :\

[SnowBird]

Making excuses and looking at Davis through rose colored glasses will not alter the fact that Clark is the Hero and Davis is the killer.

A hero wouldn't get his friend, Chloe to murder him and leave her to the consequences afterwards. That was a cop-out by Davis. He could have found kryptonite and tried to kill himself but he would rather involve an innocent person, Chloe. Davis heroic? Just the opposite, he is a coward that couldn't even attempt suicide on his own. To add to the insult, he has involved Chloe again in harboring him, a criminal.

Davis wouldn't be my hero in a million years. Give me the real hero of the story, Clark. A person who honors life at all costs, even to the point of giving up his own life in the future battle with Doomsday to preserve humanity. That is heroism far beyond the weak attempt that Davis could come up with of a failed death which only made him stronger and a bigger threat to the world.

[chlo-el]

Making excuses and looking at Davis through rose colored glasses will not alter the fact that Clark is the Hero and Davis is the killer.

A hero wouldn't get his friend, Chloe to murder him and leave her to the consequences afterwards. That was a cop-out by Davis. He could have found kryptonite and tried to kill himself but he would rather involve an innocent person, Chloe. Davis heroic? Just the opposite, he is a coward that couldn't even attempt suicide on his own. To add to the insult, he has involved Chloe again in harboring him, a criminal.

Davis wouldn't be my hero in a million years. Give me the real hero of the story, Clark. A person who honors life at all costs, even to the point of giving up his own life in the future battle with Doomsday to preserve humanity. That is heroism far beyond the weak attempt that Davis could come up with of a failed death which only made him stronger and a bigger threat to the world.

I don't think it's rosed colored glasses it's not excuses. They have shown him a sympathetic guy that has been forced into this. yes Clark becomes the hero and Davis becomes the villian but I say it is very heroic to fight your destiny when it's bad. I do think Clark is the hero of the story. And I think that it was heroic of Clark to not want to be villian which is what he thought his destny was at first. But later even when he knew it wasn't he still fought against it.

I'm sorry the fact the Davis doesn't have a choice isn't a weak excuse. Free will is so precious and important and when it is taken away it is a real tragedy.

And again Davis doesn't have much of a choice. He is choosing the best he can. And when he wants to die he probally figured that Chloe would know where to find enough of it to kill him. And having Chloe harbor him is actually brave since she has acted disgusted with him before and killed him to protect Clark. She could have told Clark and that big fight could have happened. But he chose to hope that maybe there was a chance for him to not be a monster, which is a chance I think he should have took as soon as he realized Chloe's effect on him. So it doesn't make him purely heroic but it doesn't make him purely villianous either.

[unfocused]

Making excuses and looking at Davis through rose colored glasses will not alter the fact that Clark is the Hero and Davis is the killer.

A hero wouldn't get his friend, Chloe to murder him and leave her to the consequences afterwards. That was a cop-out by Davis. He could have found kryptonite and tried to kill himself but he would rather involve an innocent person, Chloe. Davis heroic? Just the opposite, he is a coward that couldn't even attempt suicide on his own. To add to the insult, he has involved Chloe again in harboring him, a criminal.

Davis wouldn't be my hero in a million years. Give me the real hero of the story, Clark. A person who honors life at all costs, even to the point of giving up his own life in the future battle with Doomsday to preserve humanity. That is heroism far beyond the weak attempt that Davis could come up with of a failed death which only made him stronger and a bigger threat to the world.

You said that perfectly. I cannot agree more.

Davis certainly has dragged Chloe into all of this. What a selfish little man. But I don't want to take any of the blame away from her, I mean having dinner with a man instead of trying to mend her marriage? And the man that her husband was suspicious of, and to top it off, she ends up finding out her husband was right and she was WRONG. And yet she STILL chose to take Davis' side. After Davis helped her ruin her marriage, after she found out Davis murdered hundreds of people, and even after she learns Davis was created to kill Clark and destroy the world... she still chose to go with him.

And to think, if Chloe would have just done the smart thing and tell Clark that Davis was alive, stronger and immortal, he could have attempted to stop Davis now. But, Chloe messed up, and now Clark might not find out about Davis until it's too late and more lives will be lost because of her. Geez. If Davis is a hero, he has the worst sidekick ever!

But I digress. Davis has murdered so many people that I am unsure now who has a higher body count; Davis or Doomsday. Let's just say that Jack the Ripper chose not to kill as many people as Davis, and that makes Jack more heroic.

[SnowBird]

James...I don't dismiss Chloe for making bad choices. Her future and the future of others are the direct result of her own bad decisions, imo. They don't call the last episode DD just for the character.

[unfocused]

Good point. Bride wasn't just about Jimmy's bride, but Doomsday's bride as well. And so the final episode will spell doom for more than just Doomsday.

[jpfort1957]

The only heroic thing I ever saw Davis do (and he did it as Doomsday) was to try and stop Chloe from getting married to that little red headed wimp. But he was a couple minutes late.

[Autumn]

i would think assisted suicide qualifies as trying very hard. unless you think (as some people seem to do-- and i don't know why except to hate on Davis) that Davis knew the kryptonite wouldn't kill him, he was willing to let himself die the SECOND that he figured out that there was a way to do.

previously he had channeled the beast's rage as best he could-- but he JUMPS at the chance to kill himself when he remembers the green rocks in the mansion. if he'd have known it before, he'd have tried THAT instead of going the "killing criminals" direction. letting yourself die for the greater good of humanity is the ultimate self-sacrifice! how the heck is that NOT heroic?

Davis is on par or worse than Jack the Ripper? wow. i mean, wow. i don't think so.

would Jack the Ripper, in any version of the story or myth, have felt the regrets and pain Davis does? there is no comparison because Davis is being compelled AGAINST his will, while the Ripper murders to feed his own desires or needs or psychosis. Davis is actually an anti-ripper, trying to first redirect and then (as soon as he finds out he can) destroy the killer even though it means destroying himself.

sure, all of these events, the guilt, the power, and the immortality may change Davis in the future, and if it does i'll make a different judgment about him at that time. but up to NOW, Davis has acted far more heroically than some of you are giving him credit for. at the very least, he is no run-of-the-mill serial killer out to satisfy his own needs-- unless you simply can't view Davis and Doomsday as two different people, which some folks apparently can't.

Very excellent points.

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----


Well, was is more heroic fighting your desitny of being a villain or fighting your destiny to be a hero?

In that way Davis is more heroic then Clark has been.

I think they are both heroic and it's just tragic that they are saying basically you don't have a choice nature wins out and the actual choices you make don't even matter.

Davis said it didn't matter what was in his heart but it matterd what he done and what he was going to do. But then later it was like he was being disproved having Chloe being able to tame him because of his feelings for her absolutely shows that it does matter what is in your heart.

I couldn't agree more.

----- Added 5 Minutes later -----


I don't think it's rosed colored glasses it's not excuses. They have shown him a sympathetic guy that has been forced into this. yes Clark becomes the hero and Davis becomes the villian but I say it is very heroic to fight your destiny when it's bad. I do think Clark is the hero of the story. And I think that it was heroic of Clark to not want to be villian which is what he thought his destny was at first. But later even when he knew it wasn't he still fought against it.

I'm sorry the fact the Davis doesn't have a choice isn't a weak excuse. Free will is so precious and important and when it is taken away it is a real tragedy.

And again Davis doesn't have much of a choice. He is choosing the best he can. And when he wants to die he probally figured that Chloe would know where to find enough of it to kill him. And having Chloe harbor him is actually brave since she has acted disgusted with him before and killed him to protect Clark. She could have told Clark and that big fight could have happened. But he chose to hope that maybe there was a chance for him to not be a monster, which is a chance I think he should have took as soon as he realized Chloe's effect on him. So it doesn't make him purely heroic but it doesn't make him purely villianous either.

Definitely not rose-colored glasses. And now Davis is more evil than Jack the Ripper? :lol::lol::lol:

[saltyweeks]

yep Autumn, the Jack the Ripper thing is over-the-top. i can see saying Davis not heroic (though i disagree) but equating him with a sadist-- it would mean that you think a goodly chunk of Smallville this season has been spent developing sympathy for someone who is absolute evil. that doesn't fit with what the writers have done at all.

Chloe's dinner with Davis is a reaction to the breakup of a marriage that MANY people have in real life-- to jump right back into dating or romantic interaction out of fear or uncertainty or lack of self-esteem, or even shock. it may not be a noble thing, but what Chloe does is a very common and believable reaction, which is what she tries to articulate to Clark before she knows the extent of Davis' actions.

[SnowBird]

Last time for posting in this thread but not the last time to debate this topic in future episodes. Stay tuned for the adventures of Clark, Doomsday, Davis and Chloe in Smallville, Metropolis and possible off world.

Doomsday is coming!

[unfocused]

Maybe Jack the Ripper will make a return to try and help defeat Davis. I'd personally like to see another powerful immortal going head to head with him. Plus, with the right amount of cash, we could see Dean Cain back :D

[Lex's power]

Davis was willing to sacrifice Jimmy to protect his identity. and after he saw that Jimmy survived and had some hallucinations he used it to make people (Chloe) believe that everything was hallucinations. yes some of you might say that Clark does the same thing all the time, but its not true. Clark had to lie to people his entire life to protect his identity, but he never thought of taking someone's life just for that.
come on people, these acts don't make Davis protective like Clark, they make him more like Lex when he didn't want people to know about the evil things that were really going on in his labs!!!
oh and there is also the fact that Davis murders people every day, whether its as doomsday without control or as himself when the targets are criminals.

in other words, since Davis found out he is doomsday he did 2 major things:
1. end someone's marriage to protect his own identity and steal the bride.
2. murder people he thinks are evil with hope of forgiveness for all the innocent people he murdered as doomsday.

[smallvillerocks45]

i would think assisted suicide qualifies as trying very hard. unless you think (as some people seem to do-- and i don't know why except to hate on Davis) that Davis knew the kryptonite wouldn't kill him, he was willing to let himself die the SECOND that he figured out that there was a way to do.

previously he had channeled the beast's rage as best he could-- but he JUMPS at the chance to kill himself when he remembers the green rocks in the mansion. if he'd have known it before, he'd have tried THAT instead of going the "killing criminals" direction. letting yourself die for the greater good of humanity is the ultimate self-sacrifice! how the heck is that NOT heroic?

Davis is on par or worse than Jack the Ripper? wow. i mean, wow. i don't think so.

would Jack the Ripper, in any version of the story or myth, have felt the regrets and pain Davis does? there is no comparison because Davis is being compelled AGAINST his will, while the Ripper murders to feed his own desires or needs or psychosis. Davis is actually an anti-ripper, trying to first redirect and then (as soon as he finds out he can) destroy the killer even though it means destroying himself.

sure, all of these events, the guilt, the power, and the immortality may change Davis in the future, and if it does i'll make a different judgment about him at that time. but up to NOW, Davis has acted far more heroically than some of you are giving him credit for. at the very least, he is no run-of-the-mill serial killer out to satisfy his own needs-- unless you simply can't view Davis and Doomsday as two different people, which some folks apparently can't.


Okay, I can give Davis some credit for trying to do something about the beast. I admit I may have been a bit extreme in saying he could try harder. What I ultimately meant by that comment however, is that it seemed as though Davis' motives were more so that he could ultimately be with Chloe - such that if Chloe can't love him back, he might as well die by committing suicide. When it didn't work, he basically got Chloe anyway... so yeah, that's a bit selfish.

Also, I'm not sure what is meant by "he's no run-of-the-mill serial killer" - sure his reasons for killing aren't ordinary (to prevent Doomsday from emerging), but he is still essentially a serial killer who absolutely murders to satisfy his needs, and I am talking about Davis - I know the difference. It is he who killed Linda Lake, and it is he, not Doomsday, who buried all of those bodies in a field.

Like I said, I do in some ways feels sorry for him. He can't help the way he was created, but it just is what it is. Maybe by being with Chloe he is in some way saving a minute portion of humanity, but he is still a killer - Davis is a killer, and he wants to kill.


...anyway, I kind of like the debate. I think it's so cool that fans of the same show can have such different readings. It's fascinating, actually. :)

[saltyweeks]

i liked the debate too smallvillerocks45. am pumped for lois tonight!!

[Davis Bloome]

Davis was willing to sacrifice Jimmy to protect his identity. and after he saw that Jimmy survived and had some hallucinations he used it to make people (Chloe) believe that everything was hallucinations. yes some of you might say that Clark does the same thing all the time, but its not true. Clark had to lie to people his entire life to protect his identity, but he never thought of taking someone's life just for that.
come on people, these acts don't make Davis protective like Clark, they make him more like Lex when he didn't want people to know about the evil things that were really going on in his labs!!!
oh and there is also the fact that Davis murders people every day, whether its as doomsday without control or as himself when the targets are criminals.

in other words, since Davis found out he is doomsday he did 2 major things:
1. end someone's marriage to protect his own identity and steal the bride.
2. murder people he thinks are evil with hope of forgiveness for all the innocent people he murdered as doomsday.
I don't recall one moment where Davis took a life to hide his identity. Don't confuse him with DD. He never had the intention to hurt Jimmy to hide his identity. He has lied about it to a higher level than Clark, but to be fair I found that this made Davis lies to hide his identity more convincable than Clark's where people mostly could tell he was lying. Is Davis a worse liar (meaning does it make him more evil) than Clark because his lies actually work?

[smallvillerocks45]

Didn't Davis take Linda Lake's life to protect his identity?
Davis is a very good liar... and I wonder sometimes if his "suicide" was just another good lie. I'll give him some credit and say that it isn't, and that he is trying to be less of a menace to society, but he's still not more heroic than Clark.

[Davis Bloome]

I agree he's not more heroic than Clark and no in my opinion it wasn't Davis who killed Linda Lake. At that point he started to transform into DD and was beginning to lose control.

[Mischael12]

I think its how you view their destiny's.

Clark's destiny is to be this great savior yet he pines to be a normal person, but he delves so far into it that as Clark Kent, he just hides out on his farm, sure now he has sorta spread his wings but he as a "human" doesn't do things to help the world. Lets not get into the argument of the Clark Kent Persona though.

Davis on the other hand had as pointed a crappy life, but still choose a career to help people, when he discovered his darkness he instead turns to trying to channel it towards those who are criminals instead of being judiciously evil. And he still pines for the murders even if they are evil.

I don't know I feel that if Davis had been in Clark's shoes he would have been a more successful heroic figure than clark.

[Serynarpc]

I think its how you view their destiny's.

Clark's destiny is to be this great savior yet he pines to be a normal person, but he delves so far into it that as Clark Kent, he just hides out on his farm, sure now he has sorta spread his wings but he as a "human" doesn't do things to help the world. Lets not get into the argument of the Clark Kent Persona though.

Davis on the other hand had as pointed a crappy life, but still choose a career to help people, when he discovered his darkness he instead turns to trying to channel it towards those who are criminals instead of being judiciously evil. And he still pines for the murders even if they are evil.

I don't know I feel that if Davis had been in Clark's shoes he would have been a more successful heroic figure than clark.

Ouch for Clark. Yet... your argument is sound. I love Clark and the Superman mythos, but I digress every time Ma and Pa Kent or Chloe needed to kick him to get him in gear.

Davis... was already saving people on his own. Yikes. What a comparison.

[Davis Bloome]

You got a point there. Clark often had to be pushed in the right direction, though not always. He often found that it was his responsibility if it was meteor related.

[smallvillerocks45]

Clark certainly had parental guidance, but his efforts to save people have always been a part of who he is.

Remember the episode "Leech" when Clark lost his powers, he couldn't help but be himself - and even broke a few ribs because it was just in his nature to want to help people, when he was powerless. Clark perhaps feels it's his responsibility to take care of matters that involve meteors, but he also just feels compelled to do something because he believes it is the right thing to do.

It is my impression that Davis became a paramedic because he's compensating for a lack he feels, and even if the Kents had found him instead, he still would essentially be (or become) Doomsday - and, IMO, no amount of direction or love could change that - because Clark, unfortunately brings out the worst in him.

[Mischael12]

Not necessarily true, Clark as Kal-El is not at all partial to humans however because of how he was raised he overrode that genetic part of him I guess you can say. Of course there is a difference in that Clark was born and Doomsday was created specifically, but even without the love and direction he still was able to live a life without the monster, he might have been able to keep doing so if he actually had positive role models and love in his life.

Clark is compelled to do something true, but again as pointed with all these powers why does he just stick to the local view?

[Bizarrolover]

I don't know I feel that if Davis had been in Clark's shoes he would have been a more successful heroic figure than clark.

Do you really think Davis would have been a hero if raised by the Kents? I tried to imagine Davis growing at the Kent farm and all I could come up with is this scenario:

Little Davis: 'Mom, I want another muffin'
Martha: 'No Davis, we'll have lunch in a moment."
Davis: 'I want it now!'
Martha: 'I said no. You can have one later.'
Davis eyes turn red.
Martha: 'OMG, what's happening?'
Mini Doomsday: 'Grrrrrrr'.
Jonathan comes in a moment later, together with little Clark. They were in the barn, fixing the tractor. 'Martha? What's for lunch, I'm hungr ...' he trips on something, which happens to be Martha's leg. The rest of her body parts are spread around the living room.
Little Clark stares horrified at notices that his brother has bony eyelids: 'You killed my mom!'
Little Clark and mini doomsday fight to death.
BTW, Jonathan dies too.

[smallvillerocks45]

Not necessarily true, Clark as Kal-El is not at all partial to humans however because of how he was raised he overrode that genetic part of him I guess you can say. Of course there is a difference in that Clark was born and Doomsday was created specifically, but even without the love and direction he still was able to live a life without the monster, he might have been able to keep doing so if he actually had positive role models and love in his life.

Clark is compelled to do something true, but again as pointed with all these powers why does he just stick to the local view?

I don't believe that Kal-El is all that impartial to humans at all. Clark was sent to Earth to be a savior - the only reason Kal-El was depicted as apathetic and mechanical is because Jor-El programmed him that way to make him do things (such as collect relics/elements).

As for why Clark remains local - I happen to think that because he was raised as a human he has endeared himself to a human life-style. Some people can't wait to leave home when they're grown up, others can't bear to leave, and since his parents loved him unconditionally - even despite his superpowers - I would imagine he fits under the second category.

Now, if we're talking about Davis/Doomsday, I have to disagree about him living his life without the beast. If we examine his dialogue with Chloe, Davis talks about having black-outs ever since he was a kid and that they were part of the reason why he jumped from foster home to foster home. Secondly, "Eternal" showed a mini Doomsday turn into the beast without any hesitation. Perhaps it was unintentional - Davis did not know how to tame the beast, after all - but these instances alone suggest that Davis' childhood was not Doomsday-free.

[Davis Bloome]

You got to understand that when you saw Davis in the mansion he had no idea of what is right and wrong so it takes little to provoke the beast. He would get angry fast without any discipline. As he spend his time in foster homes he learned discipline, but that wouldn't stop the black-outs, whether he knows right and wrong or not. Now surely if he lived with the Kents with the same love they provided he would still have that discipline, he would still know right from wrong, so I think the situation might still be a little different. I think the scenario which bizarrolover describes is unlikely. You describe him as tempered. I don't see Davis as tempered.

Of course you would still have the black-outs. It's just a question how the Kents would have dealed with that. The same with Clark's powers perhaps... How to control it. Maybe the love they would give to Davis would have the same effect as Chloe? Maybe that could stop the beast, we can't know, but I don't see it as unlikely... On the contrary. But oh boy what would happen if Jonathan died. Maybe that wouldn't have happened so fast, cause it was partially's Clark's fault. Davis wouldn't make such a decision as he probably wouldn't have been able to go back in time in the first place.

[Bizarrolover]

You got to understand that when you saw Davis in the mansion he had no idea of what is right and wrong so it takes little to provoke the beast. He would get angry fast without any discipline. As he spend his time in foster homes he learned discipline, but that wouldn't stop the black-outs, whether he knows right and wrong or not. Now surely if he lived with the Kents with the same love they provided he would still have that discipline, he would still know right from wrong, so I think the situation might still be a little different. I think the scenario which bizarrolover describes is unlikely. You describe him as tempered. I don't see Davis as tempered.


While my post was a joke, as a mother, i know that even the nicest kid, especially of young age, is tempered. Clark had explosions of temper as a child, and broke the dining table in two at the age of 3 as Martha said in Krypto. So that scenario is not impossible. Davis experienced blackouts since he was a child, so he could very well have a blackout and kill his loving family while they were still asleep. Killing is in his nature, and not even the kinest, most caring, loving environment would change that. The proof is that he mutated in seconds and killed Chloe's attacker regardless her soothing presence. he could have helped her as Davis and scare the man away, but instead he turned into the moster and cut the man into pieces.

[Davis Bloome]

While my post was a joke, as a mother, i know that even the nicest kid, especially of young age, is tempered. Clark had explosions of temper as a child, and broke the dining table in two at the age of 3 as Martha said in Krypto. So that scenario is not impossible. Davis experienced blackouts since he was a child, so he could very well have a blackout and kill his loving family while they were still asleep. Killing is in his nature, and not even the kinest, most caring, loving environment would change that. The proof is that he mutated in seconds and killed Chloe's attacker regardless her soothing presence. he could have helped her as Davis and scare the man away, but instead he turned into the moster and cut the man into pieces.
Yes children can be tempered, they all have to a certain degree, one more than the other. But the things Clark did like breaking the table in two were likely accidents because he didn't know to control his power so I don't think they were outbursts of temper. We can't know yet why Davis changed. Most likely the effect is taking away, but did Davis ever have any recollection of changing in the monster? Actually that seems to be a plothole. Davis can't remember changing into DD cause they only occured during blackouts, so why didn't he remember when he changed in DD when he attacked the men who dropped him off? Anyway my point still stands. Davis did not change into DD while concious except for the one time I just mentionned. Personally I think it was just to show another scene of DD, showing he was already capable of such strength as a child. But like I said Davis when concious is always aware when he changes into Doomsday, so I'm not sure he changed into DD when tempered in his childhood. Even so as an adult he is a very calm person and is certainly not very hot tempered, which mean he was probably not so temperamental as a child either.

[CreamPuffer]

The dude kills people for a hobby.
That's not HEROIC.
It's SADISTIC!

Ummm...it's not a hobby.

----- Added 3 Minutes later -----


either which way your look it killing people is wrong i dont care if they're drug dealers, pedophiles, etc, what right does he have to end a persons life. That is not noble that is just a cop out to make him believe he is doing the right thing.

I like how everyone basically just says this to prove their point that Davis is bad. But nobody really says what he should have done instead. I don't think what he did was right and killing is killing so it's always wrong. But considering his situation, did he have another choice? I can't think of one and would really like to hear you what you think?

[Supermania]

I think not. Davis does what Clark would never dream of doing; killing human beings.

[Imzadia]

You said it, 'Supermania'. The 'phantom' Faora in Lois proudly Declared to Davis that he was genetically 'Designed' from 'matter' that was Zod's, Faora's, and Krypton's most viscious creature. He was Designed to KILL, and she suspected that all of the brutal 'Carnage' that had recently happened in Metropolis that she'd read about on the DP's computer was Davis' doing. That's what he was expected to do, and she proceeded to describe to him what his life had been like involving the Blackouts. Therefore, Davis fulfilled his genetic Programming and with No Will of his own, Killed many.

Certainly, that slimey green ooze that came out of that 'Pod' that had been attached to Clark's space ship wasn't to become anything human. He was never a baby, but emerged from the ooze fully developed as a male child about age 6. He was quite Different from Clark ...who was a 'normal' Kryptonian child who had aged only 3 years from his infancy since he'd been launched into space to Earth. While Davis was sequestered at the Luthor Mansion for a week, he met Lex and had Killed Lex's pet bird before they met for the first time. Yes, he also Killed the security guards who were ordered to abandon him on a street corner when he 'morphed' into Doomsday even as a child. It was Obvious that his natural Instincts were Murderous from the beginning.

He Learned the difference between right and wrong while growing up in the child foster care system and he learned where to go to seek forgiveness for his 'wrong-doing', but he misunderstood how WRONG it still was to become JUDGE and JURY for so many random Vagabond individuals. He was a Vigilante making excuses for murder. NEVER a Hero, IMO. The only solution for him was to Isolate himself from humanity. Because of Tess' interference he may have learned about his Kryptonian heritage and asked Clark for help so that he wouldn't continue to murder. Clark's Phantom Zone solution would've been the better solution for everyone.

Now, IF he would have ALLOWED himself to be sent to the PZ 'Willingly', then That would have been a True Heroic Act and given him some portion of Redemption. After All of his killing, he still felt that he 'deserved' some bit of happiness with Chloe, rather than unselfishly setting her free from her companionship with him, which would've been a type of Prison... no Real Love, IMO.

[Lilah]

Do you really think Davis would have been a hero if raised by the Kents? I tried to imagine Davis growing at the Kent farm and all I could come up with is this scenario:

Little Davis: 'Mom, I want another muffin'
Martha: 'No Davis, we'll have lunch in a moment."
Davis: 'I want it now!'
Martha: 'I said no. You can have one later.'
Davis eyes turn red.
Martha: 'OMG, what's happening?'
Mini Doomsday: 'Grrrrrrr'.
Jonathan comes in a moment later, together with little Clark. They were in the barn, fixing the tractor. 'Martha? What's for lunch, I'm hungr ...' he trips on something, which happens to be Martha's leg. The rest of her body parts are spread around the living room.
Little Clark stares horrified at notices that his brother has bony eyelids: 'You killed my mom!'
Little Clark and mini doomsday fight to death.
BTW, Jonathan dies too.

That's freaking hilarious!!!!!!!!!! LOL!:rotfl:

Yeah Davis killed Jimmy... he's a real hero.... right...

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----


Clark certainly had parental guidance, but his efforts to save people have always been a part of who he is.

Remember the episode "Leech" when Clark lost his powers, he couldn't help but be himself - and even broke a few ribs because it was just in his nature to want to help people, when he was powerless. Clark perhaps feels it's his responsibility to take care of matters that involve meteors, but he also just feels compelled to do something because he believes it is the right thing to do.

It is my impression that Davis became a paramedic because he's compensating for a lack he feels, and even if the Kents had found him instead, he still would essentially be (or become) Doomsday - and, IMO, no amount of direction or love could change that - because Clark, unfortunately brings out the worst in him.

Or like in "Perry" when he saved Perry White without powers, or when he actually went to fight the witches without his powers and just a shotgun... :) Clark's shown that with out without powers, he's a real hero.

Let's not forget he took a bullet for Lois this season too...:)