The real Sageth

[Bre723]

Namon and Sageth where hugely relieved in one of my personal favorite episodes in season three "Talisman".
I didn't like how they said that Davis was Sageth, but didn't the knife disappear when Lionel and Lex touched it?
So to me that makes no sense with what they said about Davis tonight.
I thought they changed the story a bit too much.
But here is the question, who is the TRUE sageth?
I still say Lex, Supermans biggest enemy and a much bigger part of Smallville and the caves before Davis came along.

[xrayvision]

Check out my Mistakes, Plotholes thread.

I have an explanation that says that the only reason people think it's no longer Lex is because they think he's dead (which we know he's not).

[Bre723]

Pff how could anyone think he's dead, hello Superman movies/tv/comics etc!lol.

[Kschreck]

Check out my Mistakes, Plotholes thread.

I have an explanation that says that the only reason people think it's no longer Lex is because they think he's dead (which we know he's not).


It's a good theory that works but I doubt that the Smallville writers were writing it that way. Besides, they made to many other mistakes besides this one as well.

[xrayvision]

^^Well, not the viewers. The characters in the show do. Though Clark should know better because he saw him & Lionel touching the blade & KNOWS Lionel is dead but didn't visually see Lex's body. Lex has a trick up his sleeve. This would be the lamest Lex if he was really murdered by the Green Arrow.

[BadToad]

It will always be Lex to me. Retcons can go hang!

[xrayvision]

It's a good theory that works but I doubt that the Smallville writers were writing it that way. Besides, they made to many other mistakes besides this one as well.

Even if they don't, it will turn out to be true & we would ignore the events in Eternal just like they ignored the events in Talisman since Talisman would take precedence.

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----


It will always be Lex to me. Retcons can go hang!

We know it will because Lex, not Doomsday, will be Clark's ongoing enemy for the rest of his life. Lex touched the Starblade. And Lex is destined to face Clark & is certainly not dead. So destiny will set things right.

[Kschreck]

The writers just killed off Lex since there wasn't more they can do with him now that Michael Rosenbaum is gone. Should he come back to reprise his role as Lex Luthor then I have no doubt in my mind that Lex will resurface and that being in the truck was merely a clone or something.

If Michael never returns then they may either never bring Lex back to the Smallville universe or do some form of hint that he isn't dead before ending the show altogether.

[xrayvision]

The writers just killed off Lex since there wasn't more they can do with him now that Michael Rosenbaum is gone. Should he come back to reprise his role as Lex Luthor then I have no doubt in my mind that Lex will resurface and that being in the truck was merely a clone or something.

If Michael never returns then they may either never bring Lex back to the Smallville universe or do some form of hint that he isn't dead before ending the show altogether.

DC wouldn't allow that. At the end there has to be Lex. Whether or not he's shown, he will be back. And I'm saying he's not dead, not even now. He made it look like he's dead so he can recover, but he certainly is alive.

[Kschreck]

Yeah that's kind of the point (though Lex did die in Lois & Clark and Lex II was brought in). I don't think this is the end of Lex Luthor in Smallville. Even if Michael never comes back we will probably see his stuntman or something reprise the role.

[Bre723]

If Michael never returns then they may either never bring Lex back to the Smallville universe or do some form of hint that he isn't dead before ending the show altogether.

Yeah, I think it would be stupid if they left Lex dead.
I think he should be at least in the series finale.

[AgentChaos]

It will always be Lex to me. Retcons can go hang!

I don't think Davis possibly being Sageeth is a retcon. It's just Tess' interpretation of the Naman/Sageeth legend.

[Kschreck]

I don't think Davis possibly being Sageeth is a retcon. It's just Tess' interpretation of the Naman/Sageeth legend.


At this point I am definitely hoping that this is indeed the case.

[SnowBird]

Clark has more than one enemy. The knife showed that Lex/Segeth is his greatest enemy. The two headed beast shows the two sides of Doomsday. Some of the paintings and knife were placed there as a warning and interpreted by the Kawatche people. The stories that matches the paintings were passed down at least 500 years since Naman was 500 years late in arriving. Since the Kawatche don't have an alphabet or the written word, I'm not sure passing the stories on from generation to generation for at least 500 years could be completely accurate when it comes to interpreting the paintings. With that in mind, the two headed beast could have been misinterpreted to be Segeth and Naman when in actuality was the two sides of Davis/Doomsday.

[jpfort1957]

Naman and Sageth were friends at one time. Clark and Davis never were.

[Lexsghost]

Since lex is not on the show anymore they had to make up new enemies

[xrayvision]

Clark has more than one enemy. The knife showed that Lex/Segeth is his greatest enemy. The two headed beast shows the two sides of Doomsday. Some of the paintings and knife were placed there as a warning and interpreted by the Kawatche people. The stories that matches the paintings were passed down at least 500 years since Naman was 500 years late in arriving. Since the Kawatche don't have an alphabet or the written word, I'm not sure passing the stories on from generation to generation for at least 500 years could be completely accurate when it comes to interpreting the paintings. With that in mind, the two headed beast could have been misinterpreted to be Segeth and Naman when in actuality was the two sides of Davis/Doomsday.

I just don't buy that. Last season, the 2-headed creature was the Traveler as stated by Ed Teague.

What I buy is that it represents Lex. That is one thing that has stayed constant in the words of Kawatche characters themselves. Kyla wouldn't have recognized those pictures on her first viewing of them had it not been known. The 2 heads symbolized the friend (the regular head) and the enemy (the monster head) that Sageeth was. On top of all this, it was such a prophecy that the eye of the monster head foretold the island that Lex's plane would crash on in Exodus-Exile. That to me ties the 2-headed creature as Lex.

Like I said, they don't think it's Lex because Sageeth isn't supposed to die so early. But Lex is not dead & will be Clark's greatest enemy throughout his life, over & over again. Doomsday will be a 1 or 2 time thing.

To top it all off, the prophecy was written 500 years ago, way before the timeline shift that created Davis took place, so it would be unaffected by it.

[Bre723]

Naman and Sageth were friends at one time. Clark and Davis never were.
Good point.

[Lilah]

I actually got that Naaman is Davis and Sageeth is Doomsday from tonight's episode... at least that's the way they made it seem to me... Which is just really really really stupid!

[Bre723]

I actually got that Naaman is Davis and Sageeth is Doomsday from tonight's episode... at least that's the way they made it seem to me... Which is just really really really stupid!
Never thought about that, I don't think that is what the cave painting is about obviously, but good symbolism for tonights episode. Ugh symbolism, high school enlish classes really got to me,lol.

[SnowBird]

I just don't buy that. Last season, the 2-headed creature was the Traveler as stated by Ed Teague.

What I buy is that it represents Lex. That is one thing that has stayed constant in the words of Kawatche characters themselves. Kyla wouldn't have recognized those pictures on her first viewing of them had it not been known. The 2 heads symbolized the friend (the regular head) and the enemy (the monster head) that Sageeth was. On top of all this, it was such a prophecy that the eye of the monster head foretold the island that Lex's plane would crash on in Exodus-Exile. That to me ties the 2-headed creature as Lex.

Like I said, they don't think it's Lex because Sageeth isn't supposed to die so early. But Lex is not dead & will be Clark's greatest enemy throughout his life, over & over again. Doomsday will be a 1 or 2 time thing.

To top it all off, the prophecy was written 500 years ago, way before the timeline shift that created Davis took place, so it would be unaffected by it.

The prophecy wasn't written since they didn't have a written language. There may have been pictures painted on an animal skin or a waumpum belt of beads placed in such a way so the stories could be told by a leader of the Kawatche. Remember the entrance to the cave was hidden and opened by Clark when he fell in a hole in the top of the cave. No telling how long the entrance had been closed, maybe for centuries

I know that the two headed monster painting has represented Lex and Clark in the past by the other SV characters because that is how the Kawatche interpreted it, but what if the Kawatche interpreted that one painting wrong down through the generations?

I'm not sure about time travel since going forward and backward in time can alter events. I do think that a relative of Clark did time travel to the future where he saw what was going to happen. He then went to the past to give the Kawatche the stories of Naman and then placed some of the paintings on the cave walls as a warning.

I do believe that Lex is Sageeth. I just think that there is an explanation as to why the two headed monster now represents Davis/Doomsday.

[J_woman_power]

Lex is definitely Sageth... I'm kind of upset that they're changing that

[The Dark Knight74]

Lex.

[xrayvision]

I do believe that Lex is Sageeth. I just think that there is an explanation as to why the two headed monster now represents Davis/Doomsday.

There is. It's that Tess is wrong. Ed Teague was wrong last year when he said it was the Traveler in Quest.

The reason for this is that every character thinks Lex is dead. Sageeth isn't supposed to die, but as the Kawatche said, be the balance of good & evil along with Naman as well as his mortal enemy. So they have eliminated Lex from being the 2 headed monster because they think he is dead, whereas Sageeth lives on to fight Naman till the end of his life.

Lex will return as he is destined to. And when he does, they (Tess, Clark, etc) will realize their mistake in interpretation. Don't forget the eye of the monster head. There's no way the shape of the eye is EXACTLY like the island Lex was stuck on if Lex wasn't the 2-headed monster.

Davis being created as a result of a timeline shift was confirmed by Chloeiac to Clark in Legion. And Smallville's recent trailers also show evidence of the timeline shift:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8T9QYFiMzk

Notice the "the past is a lie", "the present is changing" & "the future is unknown" captions that pop up.

[Lilah]

Never thought about that, I don't think that is what the cave painting is about obviously, but good symbolism for tonights episode. Ugh symbolism, high school enlish classes really got to me,lol.

The way they turned around everything we've learned in earlier seasons about Lex and Clark is one reason why I am just going to forget this episode. Another reason is Chlavis.

[Kschreck]

I wish we could get more episodes that are like Hex. That was a really awesome episode.

[Lilah]

^I think most of us do too!

[Timester]

Lex is Sageeth and no one, not even PS3, are going to tell me otherwise. I refuse to support glaring retcons (like the Lionel knowing all along).

So, for me, it was just Tess' misinterpretation. She didn't had all the facts, like the knife.

[Kschreck]

Lex is Sageeth and no one, not even PS3, are going to tell me otherwise. I refuse to support glaring retcons (like the Lionel knowing all along).

So, for me, it was just Tess' misinterpretation. She didn't had all the facts, like the knife.


Yeah I am clingy onto this myself but knowing our luck, they will continue to push these retcons in the rest of this season. :(

[Vergon6]

Lex is definitely Sageeth.

[Jack-El49]

Lex is definitely Sageth... I'm kind of upset that they're changing that

Me too. Lex clearly was - the knife disintegrated when he touched it, as the prophecy predicted. This retcon of that legend was horrible.

[badraven]

I see this as a non-issue. The Naman/Segeeth legend (created by SV) is just that... a legend. And throughout history legends have to open to interpretation. On the show many people have been shown interpreting the legend in ways we the audience would believe to be wrong. That's the cool thing about myths...it can be many things to different people. I don't see it as a recton at all. My take on the legend is that Segeeth is...Lex. But that's me.

[Timester]

I see this as a non-issue. The Naman/Segeeth legend (created by SV) is just that... a legend. And throughout history legends have to open to interpretation. On the show many people have been shown interpreting the legend in ways we the audience would believe to be wrong. That's the cool thing about myths...it can be many things to different people. I don't see it as a recton at all. My take on the legend is that Segeeth is...Lex. But that's me.

It most certainly is not a non-issue, because season 3 was constructed upon it. The knife was there for a purpose, and it dissapeared for a purpose.

[xrayvision]

It most certainly is not a non-issue, because season 3 was constructed upon it. The knife was there for a purpose, and it dissapeared for a purpose.

We have the knife proving the prophecy was true regarding Lex & the island Lex was stranded on being the same shape as Sageeth's monster eye in the picture. No other proof is needed is show it's Lex.

[costas22]

Lex is Sageeth.They should have never messed with issues that made Season 3 special.

[smallviluva]

DC wouldn't allow that. At the end there has to be Lex. Whether or not he's shown, he will be back. And I'm saying he's not dead, not even now. He made it look like he's dead so he can recover, but he certainly is alive.

oh no lex is definately dead right now but Ollie will summon zatana and grant his one wish which would be to take bak what he did to lex....but if u remember in order to bring someone back someone must die... and becuase there are 2 people dying chloe will be one as she betrays clark (i thought it might be tess as she must eventually get clarks trust towads the finale, but she betrays him by using hte orb thing and getting rid of his powers etc, or chloe uses it etc) and then other person is either going to be davis (but doomsday lives) or tess someone has to take lex's place... any thoughts??

[mjs1973]

Namon and Sageth where hugely relieved in one of my personal favorite episodes in season three "Talisman".
I didn't like how they said that Davis was Sageth, but didn't the knife disappear when Lionel and Lex touched it?
So to me that makes no sense with what they said about Davis tonight.
I thought they changed the story a bit too much.
But here is the question, who is the TRUE sageth?
I still say Lex, Supermans biggest enemy and a much bigger part of Smallville and the caves before Davis came along.

We all know that the story is about Clark and Lex. Reading a journal makes Tess think that she knows everything. She wasn't trying to see the story from Lex or Lionel's eyes, she was trying to see it from her eyes. She figured out that two people fell from the stars so, not knowing the exact reasons why Lex and Clark absolved their friendship, she right away points to Davis because the two are connected when they both fell from the sky. The story talked about Nemon falling from the sky not Sageth.

[Iluvgreen]

I do agree with Tess when she says that Clark can't fulfill his destiny without killing Doomsday first. I think Lex is Calrk's worst enemy... but I think Davis is what was reffered to on the cave, because they came down to earth together.

[ClubXerxes]

To me, Lex was Sageeth
The beast in the symbol however could be interpreted as Doomsday, so I don't have as much trouble with the interpretation. It could be that the interpretation that they were once friends was wrong. It could just be that they came to earth together.


Here's one that's REALLY out there...what if Chloe was Sageeth?:(

[Estro-gen X]

We know it will because Lex, not Doomsday, will be Clark's ongoing enemy for the rest of his life. Lex touched the Starblade. And Lex is destined to face Clark & is certainly not dead. So destiny will set things right.

Lex will die and Clark will live on and Doomsday will continue to be his nemesis though

[badraven]

It is a non-issue because NOTHING in 'Eternal' disproves that Lex is Segeeth. All we have is Tess' interpretation of the Naman legend. One that right now Clark seems to think is right. Considering the fact that Tess also thinks that Davis/Doomsday is some "Judas" like figure that she needs to help in order for Clark/The Traveler to fulfill his destiny...I wouldn't put too much stock into her theory. Which of course is how it is shown in the episode. Tess could be no more right than Jeremiah Holdsclaw in 'Talisman' when he thought he was Naman. It's a legend, not some guide from Jor-El to the future. Legends are open to interpretation. Again it is a non-issue- I see nothing wrong with a different take. Also I wouldn't say that the Naman legend was the entire basis for the third season. I always saw it as a battle between Lex and Lionel with Clark in the middle. JMO.

[Lilah]

^You're definitely right about that. Legends are up for interpretation. But its so annoying that suddenly five seasons later, they're going to change up everything. And the legend of the caves was always a big part of season 3. It has been a huge deal for years on Smallville. Lex's obsession with the caves is what turned into his obsession with Clark. So everything that doomed their friendship started with those caves.

[gmhashope]

We have the knife proving the prophecy was true regarding Lex & the island Lex was stranded on being the same shape as Sageeth's monster eye in the picture. No other proof is needed is show it's Lex.
Exactly and coupled with Tess' quote that Clark will never fufill his destiny until he faces his ultimate challence is I think very excellent foreshadowing. In this years season finale he will face Doomsday, but won't become Superman. Next season he will face Lex again and become Superman ending Smallville and reaching his destiny.

Last season with Mr. Teague and Eternal shows how myths are open to interpretation. The 2 headed monster could be symbolic of Clark having 2 sides evident by Red K or Davis/Doomsday serving as a warning to Clark, but the real and main reason, not possible symbolism, is to tell the story of Lex and Clark.

[xrayvision]

oh no lex is definately dead right now but Ollie will summon zatana and grant his one wish which would be to take bak what he did to lex....but if u remember in order to bring someone back someone must die... and becuase there are 2 people dying chloe will be one as she betrays clark (i thought it might be tess as she must eventually get clarks trust towads the finale, but she betrays him by using hte orb thing and getting rid of his powers etc, or chloe uses it etc) and then other person is either going to be davis (but doomsday lives) or tess someone has to take lex's place... any thoughts??

I don't think Lex was killed. That would be something that would put Lex's existence in the hands of the Green Arrow & would make the character look pathetic.

I'm still hoping my theory that Lex had Zatanna's father use his magic on him to make him look like Oliver (like Zatanna did to Chloe in Hex to turn her into a Lois lookalike) with Lex killing him after doing this comes true. It would be awesome if in Injustice we find out that Lex as Oliver is leading the team Tess assembled. Now that would be cool.

[thehenry89]

Lex is sageeth.

[The Striving Artist®]

Check out my Mistakes, Plotholes thread.

I have an explanation that says that the only reason people think it's no longer Lex is because they think he's dead (which we know he's not).


The problem is the way they have written him,Clark tends to brush off anything that has to do with Vertias,the Kawatchi caves in terms of there prophetic meanings.

[superhippie2000]

i think doomsday is the real sageth but the knife going when lex and lionel went towards it i think it would of been destroyed by anyone who wasnt on the side of the traveler. like huge enemy. lex is a big enemey to clark so it would turn to dust when he touched it. im sure the knife was ment to kill doomsday tho because clark doesnt need a kryptonian dagger to kill a human. it would of worked on doomsday tho.

[Davis Bloome]

The knife isn't really a plothole imo. It would vaporize in those who are unworthy, wasn't it... It wasn't really said that it would only vaporize in the hands of Sageeth. So it's still logical and I think it would have vaporized in either Lex or Lionel's hands.

The prophecy of Sageeth being friends with Namon is a plothole though. But because prophecies are often misread I can overlook that...

[Timester]

The knife isn't really a plothole imo. It would vaporize in those who are unworthy, wasn't it... It wasn't really said that it would only vaporize in the hands of Sageeth. So it's still logical and I think it would have vaporized in either Lex or Lionel's hands.

Nope. It was Sageeth and Sageeth only.

Unlike the PTB, I don't forget past stories.

[costas22]

It was specified that the knife would disinigrate when it was touched by Sageeth.Clark and the Kents had a scene later on wondering who touched it first.

[Davis Bloome]

ok thx for clearing that up, I wasn't sure...

[KryptonStones]

THIS IS BULL! Lex Luthor was established far before Davis Bloome was in the picture. They just retconned one of the best, MOST IMPORTANT, moments in SV history. What does this entire thing say about Sageeth? "Does it occur to you that the hero of the story might be Sageeth?" That line had so much impact because we ALL KNEW LEX LUTHOR WAS SAGEETH. Now that Davis Bloome is the new baddie on Sv they want to make him more important than Lex? They're going to make Davis Superman's TRUE nemesis? BULLOCKS!

[superhippie2000]

could be that lex was sageth until brainiac went back in time and changed things and sent doomsday to earth then the story changed. where is hurley to explain time travel pardoxes when you need him :lol:

[Dustmite]

Lex. They can do or say what they like now but it being someone else, anyone else makes no sense at all.

[Davis Bloome]

I do agree that the story of Sageeth was changed just with the purpose to make Doomsday sound more important. Lex was always Sageeth to me before they came up with this.

[Hopefulsuicide]

Nope. It was Sageeth and Sageeth only.

Unlike the PTB, I don't forget past stories.

That knife was the first thing i thought about when i heard Tess' ridiculous claims that Doomy is Segeeth... it's atrocious storytelling :(

[marcella]

Lex, because I hate retcons

[xrayvision]

could be that lex was sageth until brainiac went back in time and changed things and sent doomsday to earth then the story changed. where is hurley to explain time travel pardoxes when you need him :lol:

The legend is 500 years old. The timeline shift has nothing to do with it because it happened in 1989. That legend had long been written before Davis' genetic matter was placed in the ship.

----- Added 2 Minutes later -----


The problem is the way they have written him,Clark tends to brush off anything that has to do with Vertias,the Kawatchi caves in terms of there prophetic meanings.

Yeah. He was serious about it back in Talisman, but now he is indifferent. He buys whatever BS anyone else tells him.

[Jaderoyale]

Lex is Sageth and always will be. In the legend Sageth and Naman were friends. Davis and Clark have never been friends.

[LuthorKent90]

Namon and Sageth where hugely relieved in one of my personal favorite episodes in season three "Talisman".
I didn't like how they said that Davis was Sageth, but didn't the knife disappear when Lionel and Lex touched it?
So to me that makes no sense with what they said about Davis tonight.
I thought they changed the story a bit too much.
But here is the question, who is the TRUE sageth?
I still say Lex, Supermans biggest enemy and a much bigger part of Smallville and the caves before Davis came along.

None of that episode made sense. There are way too many plot holes.

To me, Lex will always be Sageth. Seasons 1-3 were the strongest of the series, I have no idea why they wanted to mess with that.

----- Added 52 Seconds later -----


Lex is Sageth and always will be. In the legend Sageth and Naman were friends. Davis and Clark have never been friends.

Thank you!! Riight down to it. :lol:

[zorasuperman]

lex def

[mimi1123]

I agree with xrayvision (and was grateful for his explanation in the mistakes/plotholes thread!). Tess interpreted the two-headed monster wrong, just like Teague did. Lex is and always has been Sageeth.

[LovelyLoisLane]

The show went at length to prove Lex was Sageeth. It is definitely him.

The legend doesn't make much sense if applied to Davis anyway.

[House of Brock]

It is really a matter of interpretation. If we think back to Talisman, Clark even said that the story is up to a million different interpretations.

If you believe the theory that Kyla had about the balance between good and evil (Naman and Segueth), then Lex would make the most sense. If you believe that it is that same balance but Doomsday instead of Lex then it is Doomsday.

Another way I thought of was that the painting displays the balance of Good and evil in Davis Bloome/Doomsday. Davis was suppose to be a good person and Doomsday is his evil side. Just a thought.

[SnowBird]

It is really a matter of interpretation. If we think back to Talisman, Clark even said that the story is up to a million different interpretations.

If you believe the theory that Kyla had about the balance between good and evil (Naman and Segueth), then Lex would make the most sense. If you believe that it is that same balance but Doomsday instead of Lex then it is Doomsday.

Another way I thought of was that the painting displays the balance of Good and evil in Davis Bloome/Doomsday. Davis was suppose to be a good person and Doomsday is his evil side. Just a thought.

Good post and much the way I feel. I am only talking about the two headed monster painting and in no way saying Lex isn't Sageeth as we saw when he touched the knife.

I have always wondered why would Lex/Sageeth and Clark/Naman share the same body in the painting? It makes more sense to me that two heads with one body would represent the good and bad in one person. The story of Sageeth and Naman doesn't have to change because one painting out of all the paintings in the cave was used to represent Davis/Doomsday...The one thing that does make this bad is because the painting was already used for Lex and Clark so I can see why all of a sudden there is a cry of retcon. If the painting had never been seen before, I could totally believe the two headed monster represented Davis/Doomsday. It didn't happen that way so now there is a problem.

[Pantalaimon]

Prophecies are interpretable and fluid. I think that's a reasonable excuse.
The only thing that really matters is that Tess believes Davis is Sageeth and so she will try to pit him against Clark so that Clark in turn will fulfill his destiny as savior of the earth.

Clark and Davis were never friends, but they should have been brothers as Clark said. Another reason for the prophecy to be interpreted differently.

[kg1507]

Lex. I wish he hadn't left the show... worst mistake ever.

[xrayvision]

Prophecies are interpretable and fluid. I think that's a reasonable excuse.
The only thing that really matters is that Tess believes Davis is Sageeth and so she will try to pit him against Clark so that Clark in turn will fulfill his destiny as savior of the earth.

Clark and Davis were never friends, but they should have been brothers as Clark said. Another reason for the prophecy to be interpreted differently.

This prophecy already was proven true in Talisman. It is no longer open to interpretation. Any further interpretation after Talisman is clearly wrong.

Tess is a fanatic. She was comparing Clark to Jesus, which Clark/Superman himself never did. Yes, there are similarities between Clark's origin and that of Jesus, but Clark himself has never claimed himself as a savior or a god, but instead a hero. Clark has learned the hard way that he is not a god in Reckoning. He learned that he can't play God.

So to me & many others here, Tess was wrong and full of it. She wasn't around when all the Naman/Sageeth stuff was going on. For her to show up now and think she knows everything is very arrogant on her part. She said the Luthors misinterpreted the legend when she did the same thing. The Kawatche themselves passed down the prophecy & it happened exactly as they said; regardless of them not having their own written language.

Davis is a product of a timeline shift that took place when Brainiac went back to Krypton and fooled around with Clark's ship---something he didn't do the first time around. The Kawatche legend was created 500 years ago, so the timeline shift that happened in Smallville's 1989 does not affect what was written in the 1500's.

If Lex wasn't Sageeth, then the Starblade would still exist until the day Davis/Doomsday touched it. If Doomsday was meant to be the real Sageeth, then the Kryptonian who knew what the future was & who first visited Earth & spawned the Kawatche tribe (whether it's Kem-El or not) would have known about the ultimate future (meaning the timeline change) and programmed the blade to react to Doomsday instead of Lex. But he didn't, therefore Lex is & will always be Sageeth.

I think Tess' reason for not thinking Lex is Sageeth is because she thinks Lex is dead, which the real Sageeth wouldn't be (since it is said that Sageeth & Naman will be enemies throughout their lives). But Lex isn't dead & will resurface when the time's right, something that Tess doesn't know, therefore it is believable why Tess would think he's not Sageeth.

My main problem is Clark not being verbal to her about how wrong she was. But this could be due to him lying in her face and not wanting to admit that he's Naman (an alien).

----- Added 17 Minutes later -----


I have always wondered why would Lex/Sageeth and Clark/Naman share the same body in the painting? It makes more sense to me that two heads with one body would represent the good and bad in one person. The story of Sageeth and Naman doesn't have to change because one painting out of all the paintings in the cave was used to represent Davis/Doomsday...The one thing that does make this bad is because the painting was already used for Lex and Clark so I can see why all of a sudden there is a cry of retcon. If the painting had never been seen before, I could totally believe the two headed monster represented Davis/Doomsday. It didn't happen that way so now there is a problem.

The painting is Sageeth. And the entire point of it was to show the true nature of Sageeth as a friend who turns into an enemy (hence the normal & monster heads). I think of it as Lex's path, where the neck in that picture represents a crossroads. Therefore, I see it like a map of Lex's life. Once Lex met Clark in the Pilot, he started off his journey at the normal looking head & began walking down towards the neck. Then in season 4 or 5, he started walking the path of the monster's head. This is how I've always viewed it since it was shown. I was wondering when the point would come that Lex would choose his path. I'd say he was at the neck until Lexmas, when he truly made his choice in life.

The biggest thing that ties the picture of Sageeth to Lex is how the eye of the monster head prophecized Lex's stay on that deserted Caribbean island, which was in the exact shape of Sageeth's monster's head's eye as we saw in Exile where the camera zoomed down on Lex the 1st time. That island is a major event that led Lex to choose the path he did. He ended up there because of what Helen Bryce did to him. As a result, he never trusted women again. Lex can be clearly seen to be much darker in season 3 than in season 2. He didn't even care about his own life when he tried to get his stolen memories back. The mistrust that was infused in Lex due to what Helen did to him is huge & is why he did what he did to Lana after getting married to her. After Helen's betrayal, he shunned all women as companions except Lana. This led to a greater amount of time to focus on his obsession (Clark, the cave, the stones) & further led him down the path of the monster head.

On top of all this, Kyla even said the picture of the 2 headed being was Sageeth. So I think this is a moot point.

[Pantalaimon]

This prophecy already was proven true in Talisman. It is no longer open to interpretation. Any further interpretation after Talisman is clearly wrong.

Well I was primarily talking about Tess interpreting the prophesy (wrongly), but even so, in many stories dealing with prophecies the prophecies are not what they appear to be. That doesn't mean I don't still think Lex is Clark's nemesis from the prophecy, but it does mean I'm fine with them playing around with it for a bit.

[SnowBird]

The painting is Sageeth. And the entire point of it was to show the true nature of Sageeth as a friend who turns into an enemy (hence the normal & monster heads). I think of it as Lex's path, where the neck in that picture represents a crossroads. Therefore, I see it like a map of Lex's life. Once Lex met Clark in the Pilot, he started off his journey at the normal looking head & began walking down towards the neck. Then in season 4 or 5, he started walking the path of the monster's head. This is how I've always viewed it since it was shown. I was wondering when the point would come that Lex would choose his path. I'd say he was at the neck until Lexmas, when he truly made his choice in life.

The biggest thing that ties the picture of Sageeth to Lex is how the eye of the monster head prophecized Lex's stay on that deserted Caribbean island, which was in the exact shape of Sageeth's monster's head's eye as we saw in Exile where the camera zoomed down on Lex the 1st time. That island is a major event that led Lex to choose the path he did. He ended up there because of what Helen Bryce did to him. As a result, he never trusted women again. Lex can be clearly seen to be much darker in season 3 than in season 2. He didn't even care about his own life when he tried to get his stolen memories back. The mistrust that was infused in Lex due to what Helen did to him is huge & is why he did what he did to Lana after getting married to her. After Helen's betrayal, he shunned all women as companions except Lana. This led to a greater amount of time to focus on his obsession (Clark, the cave, the stones) & further led him down the path of the monster head.

On top of all this, Kyla even said the picture of the 2 headed being was Sageeth. So I think this is a moot point.

I can understand why they would use the two headed monster for Davis/Doomsday because the picture actually fits. Do I think it was right for them to do it? No, as they should have left the story of Sageeth and Naman alone.

[xrayvision]

I get what you're saying Pantalaimon & SnowBird. I just wish the writers had a different back story for Doomsday than trying to fit him in the ones the used for Lex & Clark.

[Pantalaimon]

I get what you're saying Pantalaimon & SnowBird. I just wish the writers had a different back story for Doomsday than trying to fit him in the ones the used for Lex & Clark.
Fair enough, of course.
Still, it does make a lot of sense to see Doomsday as the ultimate destroyer and ultimate physical challenge for Clark. I believe in the comics Doomsday also becomes something of a nemesis for Superman. In that respect he fits the Sageeth description surprisingly well. (I'm choosing to tick the 'friends turned enemies' box in the Naman prophesy check list based on the 'we should have been brothers' line). And by combining Doomsday with the Naman prophecy they're turning the destroyer into something of a rite of passage for Clark to undergo on the road to Superman. Call it belated, but I think it's a very interesting turn of events (especially in combination with Tess' crazy machinations). As such I don't think a completely separate back story would necessarily have been better.
Again though, Lex Luthor is the archetypal nemesis of Superman, that will never change.

[Isabel14]

I think Lex is his greatest enemy, because even if Doomsday is very powerful and likely immortal, Lex is smart and he knows how to get to Clark while with Doomsday Clark knows he is dangerous and only he has to do is to fight with him. Lex is more artful and he can hide and be an unknown danger..

[xrayvision]

And Lex will keep coming at him. And there's something about Lex that's not true about Doomsday---he is a necessary evil. I wish the show did more to show this aspect of Lex. The comics showed that without Lex/Lexcorp, the economy isn't the same and corruption starts to spread. He is very much like the Kingpin was in Spider-Man comics (except Kingpin is not only bald, but extremely fat & strong).

[Selina]

Lex is definitely Sageth... I'm kind of upset that they're changing that

Me too. Talk about re-writing history. Not impressed.:(

The writers, since season 2, spent years developing the prophecy between Naman and Sageth and it was blatantly obvious that Namam represented Clark and Sageth, Lex. Not only that, no one is more fitting. While Doomsday weighs a large important on Clarks journey and that he is the ultimate destroyer, its Lex that is Supermans main nemesis through the superman mythology. He has the history, the ruthlessness and the cold calculating nature. He was also friends with Clark first. Lex ticks all the boxes. Doomsday doesn't


<O:p</O:pI should hope that the writers address that Tess is way of base with her theory. Otherwise this latest development would seem so inconsistent after the development of Lexs Sageth. It also tarnishes fans view of the Clark vs Lex feud, which by Lex's words will be "stuff of legend". It has to be them, otherwise it will just come across as one massive plot hole.

The writers dont need to make Doomsday as "Sageth" to make his battle with Clark more epic.:rolleyes: I'd rather they were consistant.
<O:p</O:p

[Theshadow129x]

I've never liekd the fact that Clark becoming superman was something that was prophetic. Prophecies are always those thnigs were its all left to interpretation and is never completely clear and after the show spent so many years trying to convince us of this betrayal coming they change up the meaning of what the prophecy was. The fact that there is a prophecy makes it seem as though Clark never had a real choice in his life that the whole thing was all set in stone before he was even born.

The naman and sageeth story is just convoluted especially with this Davis thing being thrown into the fold. They shouldnt mess with retcon like they did in this episode because it added more plot holes to the story more than ever. Everytime there is a new character added to this show they try to make up a way that shows that everything is connected and yet when they do that theres more problems in the story tehy are trying to tell.

How the heck did lex and davis know each otehr and hang out in the mansion? Then mansion wasn't even in Smallville at the time. At that Why would Lionel just let the kid run around the mansion if he was an experiment? wth? Lex and Lionel also said they never set a foot in the castle until Lex moved to smallville so why the scenes in the mansion!? How does Davis betray Clark when they were never close? it doesnt fit!

Problems after problems

[xrayvision]

I've never liekd the fact that Clark becoming superman was something that was prophetic. Prophecies are always those thnigs were its all left to interpretation and is never completely clear and after the show spent so many years trying to convince us of this betrayal coming they change up the meaning of what the prophecy was. The fact that there is a prophecy makes it seem as though Clark never had a real choice in his life that the whole thing was all set in stone before he was even born.

The naman and sageeth story is just convoluted especially with this Davis thing being thrown into the fold. They shouldnt mess with retcon like they did in this episode because it added more plot holes to the story more than ever. Everytime there is a new character added to this show they try to make up a way that shows that everything is connected and yet when they do that theres more problems in the story tehy are trying to tell.

How the heck did lex and davis know each otehr and hang out in the mansion? Then mansion wasn't even in Smallville at the time. At that Why would Lionel just let the kid run around the mansion if he was an experiment? wth? Lex and Lionel also said they never set a foot in the castle until Lex moved to smallville so why the scenes in the mansion!? How does Davis betray Clark when they were never close? it doesnt fit!

Problems after problems

The Naman-Sageeth legend had no plotholes until season 7 when they tried to do a Naman-Traveler combo in Quest (which is just wrong). There was no interpretation left open as far as who Sageeth was because Talisman proved it.

I do wish we got a scene where a flashback would have been shown of the Kryptonian who came to Earth in the 1500's as he created the Kawatche tribe & show how he knew of the future events. I wrote a fanfic about this & all the precursor events before Clark arrived on Earth, explaining it as Kem-El (Clark's ancestor from the comics) being the one to first go to Earth after creating a future-seeing device. His son asked him to show him Krypton 1000 years into the future & when Kem-El looked for it, he found nothing but chunks of kryptonite & dust floating around where Krypton used to be. He then went back & found the day Krypton exploded and tracked Clark as he left & Clark's journey to Earth. After he got his ship ready, he went to Earth & during the 3 year journey, he watched Clark's life on Earth & the events between him & Lex.

Therefore, I explained the prophecy, not as a destiny where Clark & Lex had no choice, but as the end result that would happen after all the events played out. And that's the way I look at it in the show when I watch seasons 2 & 3. Clark & Lex each had their own choices to live their lives and ultimately lived them in the way that proved the prophecy to be true.

[SupaBoy]

I never thought of this before so im gonna get u guys oppinion, when we see lionel and Lex touch and it dissapears. lionel dies. So say Lionel was originally meant to be Clarks biggest enemy and he dies wouldnt there be another cycle as there isnt only one big enemy. and now he has another big enemy that is until he defeats it and finda another one.

[xrayvision]

Lionel was never meant to be Clark's big enemy. Lex is the one who touched it (you can see it in slow-mo). Lex even approached Clark at the end justifying Sageeth as the hero (why else would he do that?). The blade proved that Lex is Sageeth. Tess' problem is that she doesn't know that Lex is really alive. She thinks Lex is dead and a dead man can't be Sageeth. But we know Lex will resurface and when he does, Tess will eat her words.

[Theshadow129x]

The Naman-Sageeth legend had no plotholes until season 7 when they tried to do a Naman-Traveler combo in Quest (which is just wrong). There was no interpretation left open as far as who Sageeth was because Talisman proved it.

I do wish we got a scene where a flashback would have been shown of the Kryptonian who came to Earth in the 1500's as he created the Kawatche tribe & show how he knew of the future events. I wrote a fanfic about this & all the precursor events before Clark arrived on Earth, explaining it as Kem-El (Clark's ancestor from the comics) being the one to first go to Earth after creating a future-seeing device. His son asked him to show him Krypton 1000 years into the future & when Kem-El looked for it, he found nothing but chunks of kryptonite & dust floating around where Krypton used to be. He then went back & found the day Krypton exploded and tracked Clark as he left & Clark's journey to Earth. After he got his ship ready, he went to Earth & during the 3 year journey, he watched Clark's life on Earth & the events between him & Lex.

Therefore, I explained the prophecy, not as a destiny where Clark & Lex had no choice, but as the end result that would happen after all the events played out. And that's the way I look at it in the show when I watch seasons 2 & 3. Clark & Lex each had their own choices to live their lives and ultimately lived them in the way that proved the prophecy to be true.

thats fine i see what you mean xray...but fanfic doesnt explain the storyline the show is currently trying to tell. if its told offscreen like online or whatever then it doesnt count towards the inevitable story. unless the story tellers themselves put it on screen. The thing about fanfic is that not everyone who watches smallville has computers or go online. most just watch it at home and let it be that and dont go to websites to discuss it like we do.

the thing about your story is that it too can be open to interpretation. if the kryptonian knew of kryptons destruction ahead of time he could have told people of it and tried to change history. or if he knew of the events of smallville was coming he could have tried to intervene and help Clark make the right choices into being superman earlier or wipe Lex off the face of the planet because he was an obstacle for Clark in saving the world. Theres just alot of problems with that story in my mind. Also, if that was the case of someone seeing the events and then time traveling back to write about it, the problem is that it still looks like its not choice because it was already seen and written therefore everything they believe they do will at some point will take them to where it was written they will be.

thats the problem with prophecies in a story like this.

back to the sageeth thing....we all know that sageeth is Lex. its the fact at how they are trying to tell this davis bloome story that i have an issue with. Sageeth is lex. no other way around it. the factt hey are trying to say the Luthors got it wrong is bull. Doomsday is not Clark's greatest enemy. Lex is because it shows how, no matter how many powers Clark has, weak Superman can be when it comes to money and social influence that Lex has. That is why season 7 and now season 8 is failing because they are trying to add extra crap into this story that doesnt fit with the story they laid out from the beginning.

[xrayvision]

I know, I was just giving my explanation to it in my fanfic, which I know doesn't apply to the show. Though in my fanfic, it was made public by Kem-El what Krypton's fate was and they had a plan that almost worked, had it not been for Zod's thirst for power (something Kem-El did not know about) & his commandeering of the Brainiac project while Jor-El was away at Earth.

I stated in the past how seasons 4-6 focused too much on relationships and not enough on the mythos. I think this is the biggest problem that led to the contradictions in season 7 and now again to the ones in Eternal. Had they slowly given us onscreen explanations for Krypton's destruction over those seasons, they could have scrapped the Veritas plot and used their storyline, which they would have been developing consistently (rather than abandoning after season 3 ended), to close out season 7 and complete Lex's transformation from the friend who becomes the enemy & tying it to his hatred/fear of aliens/Kryptonians.

All that Justice & Doom, Kara Chronicles, etc offscreen stuff was horribly done. What show leaves its most important aspects to offscreen, product-placement related gimmicks? I don't know what the hell they were thinking. Had they placed more importance of that stuff, I'm sure they could have combined the cave legend, Swann's research, and Lionel's Level 3 experiments together in a much more convincing way than the way they did, which is not entirely believable. I would love to have seen flashbacks showing Lionel's interest in kryptonite being a result of the effects it had on his own son after Lex lost his hair & no longer had asthma.

[Theshadow129x]

Dont get me wrong xray i like ur fanfics. they are good reads and are better explanations than what we get from the show. Fact is that the show doesnt know how to combine both characterization and mythos elements at the same time. when they do one they forget about the other and something gets stinted in the process.

Lionel never 'always' knew of Clark's secret. his mission was to find Clark to use him for experiments and help him battle the terminal lung cancer he was suffering from and in the process hope to be immortal. It wasn't to be his enemy like they say now nor was it to help him discover himself of being our savior. This is tuff that got lost in translation with the show as time went on. the show has lost itself in its own story and its hard for it to even point itself forward.

This season has been going downhill after the Lana crap that happened. Somehow we went from gonig forward with the mythology to going down hill and backwards with plotholes and dumb storylines.

[xrayvision]

The shame is they were pretty good on avoiding contradictions in most stories except for these last 2 seasons.

It was cool having that prophecy, but if they wanted to relate all the events to the prophecy and it meant having to butcher all the past stories, then they should have dropped their plans.

Like you said, Lionel never always knew of Clark's secret. The prophecy never said anything about that, but the Veritas story, which was a big mistake & contradiction, did. TPTB saying that he always knew about an alien scheduled to land in 1989 is a farce. When someone watches the first seasons, they wouldn't see any hint of Lionel being suspicious of Clark until Dichotic & Red. By saying he always knew Clark's secret, not only are they making contradictions, but they are taking away from the greatness of Lionel's character. They showed Lionel to be a methodical man whose obsession in Clark & all things alien rivaled & even surpassed Lex's, but came after Lex's obsession (which started in Obscura after first finding out that an alien ship crashed in the meteor shower from Eddie Cole). In season 3 he was shown to have the liver disease, and he was relentless in doing whatever he could to unlock the secrets in the cave, to solve the mystery that was Clark, and to perfect the blood platelet serum.

I agree about the Lana crap. Season 3 was the last season that I fully enjoyed. It's amazing how since then, they failed to make a consistently well written season. Season 4 to me was mostly fillers & crap (with a few exceptions like Run & Transference) until Onyx aired (even after Onyx there was Ageless). Season 5 was interesting (even though the dumbing of Clark was in full effect as of Arrival) up until Reckoning. Season 6 started getting interesting around Hydro (though there were still episodes that badly portrayed Clark or barely gave him spotlight like Justice & Progeny). Season 7 was mostly crap. Season 8 was pretty damn good until Power (except for Toxic & Abyss, which I didn't care too much for).

My very first posts in the Odyssey forum were about how they should forget about the Traveler and all things Season 7 and just move forward. I was very happy about that until Eternal, which brought back bad writing and even more plotholes. And Power & Requiem set things in a backward motion; something I had a bad feeling would happen.

[tonnmiister]

i think Davis was meant to be sageth, but when Lex touched the blade it knew that he was clarks greatest enemy, and so the sageth

i mean you dont see doomsday in every superman film so far, taking the place as supermans greatest enemy, do you?

[Pantalaimon]

My very first posts in the Odyssey forum were about how they should forget about the Traveler and all things Season 7 and just move forward. I was very happy about that until Eternal, which brought back bad writing and even more plotholes. And Power & Requiem set things in a backward motion; something I had a bad feeling would happen.
This may be slightly off-topic, but how would you feel about season 9 addressing some of the loose ends from season 4. Such as why were those crystals on earth. Did the Kryptonians know about prophecies made on earth and how did they feel about them?

[xrayvision]

This may be slightly off-topic, but how would you feel about season 9 addressing some of the loose ends from season 4. Such as why were those crystals on earth. Did the Kryptonians know about prophecies made on earth and how did they feel about them?

They had to know about the prophecies since the 1st one to arrive to Earth is the one who told the Kawatche about Naman's arrival in a rain of fire & having the strength of several men & shooting fire out his eyes. I have a theory that Kem-El (Clark's great, great, great, great, etc grandfather) who created the Eradicator in the comics was the one to first visit Earth in the 1500's.

I think those loose ends should have been addressed in season 7 rather than starting a whole new Veritas story. They did say in season 4 that Lionel had his men search for the stones several times, though given his initial resistance to Dr. Hamilton in Duplcity, he wasn't shown to be aware of anything alien until that episode when he felt Clark's ship in his blindness. It would have been much better had they shown Veritas as a secret society of people who witnessed a visit of one of the several Kryptonians since the first one who visited what became Smallville in the 1500's (whether it's Kem-El or not) and saw walking in to one of the places where a stone was hidden with the stone but walking out without it & displaying superhuman powers. I think it would have been awesome had one of Virgil Swann's, Genevieve Teague's, and Lionel Luthor's ancestors seen this and explain that Lionel didn't know because he killed his parents before they ever mentioned anything about it. Given the direction they left the show in after season 6 ended, I would have connected the Luthors & their Scottish mansion to Veritas, leaving the orb buried in their fireplace and explaining it and that key as the Eradicator, which was found when an even older ancestor of Swann saw Kem-El bring it to Earth & bury it somewhere to protect Krypton. I would have nixed all ideas about the Traveler and made Veritas be a society that originally formed to find and protect Earth from the power of the stones and have the Eradicator as a secret weapon against an invading Kryptonian who found them.

This is what I would have done had they ended season 6 the way they did. I wrote & posted a fanfic episode about the stones, the Eradicator, Krypton's destruction, Kem-El, and the various generations of the House of El explaining all of this and including an explanation of how Virgil Swann was much more than ever revealed on the show. What I had in that episode is the true way I would have explained all these elements.

[Theshadow129x]

The shame is they were pretty good on avoiding contradictions in most stories except for these last 2 seasons.

It was cool having that prophecy, but if they wanted to relate all the events to the prophecy and it meant having to butcher all the past stories, then they should have dropped their plans.

Like you said, Lionel never always knew of Clark's secret. The prophecy never said anything about that, but the Veritas story, which was a big mistake & contradiction, did. TPTB saying that he always knew about an alien scheduled to land in 1989 is a farce. When someone watches the first seasons, they wouldn't see any hint of Lionel being suspicious of Clark until Dichotic & Red. By saying he always knew Clark's secret, not only are they making contradictions, but they are taking away from the greatness of Lionel's character. They showed Lionel to be a methodical man whose obsession in Clark & all things alien rivaled & even surpassed Lex's, but came after Lex's obsession (which started in Obscura after first finding out that an alien ship crashed in the meteor shower from Eddie Cole). In season 3 he was shown to have the liver disease, and he was relentless in doing whatever he could to unlock the secrets in the cave, to solve the mystery that was Clark, and to perfect the blood platelet serum.

I agree about the Lana crap. Season 3 was the last season that I fully enjoyed. It's amazing how since then, they failed to make a consistently well written season. Season 4 to me was mostly fillers & crap (with a few exceptions like Run & Transference) until Onyx aired (even after Onyx there was Ageless). Season 5 was interesting (even though the dumbing of Clark was in full effect as of Arrival) up until Reckoning. Season 6 started getting interesting around Hydro (though there were still episodes that badly portrayed Clark or barely gave him spotlight like Justice & Progeny). Season 7 was mostly crap. Season 8 was pretty damn good until Power (except for Toxic & Abyss, which I didn't care too much for).

My very first posts in the Odyssey forum were about how they should forget about the Traveler and all things Season 7 and just move forward. I was very happy about that until Eternal, which brought back bad writing and even more plotholes. And Power & Requiem set things in a backward motion; something I had a bad feeling would happen.

Odyssey gets a lot of praise from me. It did a great job of wrapping up the traveler storyline trying its best to try and get away from the stuff in the past. I liked it for that aspect. To be honest with except of toxic the first 11 episodes moved forward very well. It was when they did power and requiem that screwed things up because it was more looking into the past that we didnt need. But what really hurt this season has to bew this episode. I dont know why they insis on going backwards with their story trying to tie veritas and the kuwatchee caves together. I dont know if they get this but it doesnt work. they are two different story lines that dont intertwine at all.

Veritas insist they knew the exact time, day, and place the shower was going to happen because of the messages they got from Jor-el. If this was the case and Jor-el told Veritas what was going to happen then why did he even have to look for a family for Kal-el to grow up with to begin with if he had 'followers'? Why look for a family anyways if the end of krypton was known for months ahead of time? s7 insists that the counsel knew of the end of krypton but if thats the case why didnt they let the innocent people go or build more ships to have more survivors? It's just a mess of a story.

I could deal with a prophecy its the veritas story that adds more complications to things though and adding it with kuwatchee and making them connect insults the long running smallville audience. And Lionel never knew of Clark. Ever. Not until he saw something different when he held the crystal to the fortress.

[xrayvision]

Yeah. I pretty much say the same thing. One reason I love Duplicity so much is that it's the first time Lionel is aware & becomes interested in alien life. One thing that episode and several after it showed is that his purpose for staying at the mansion during his blindness was to find out what Lex was up to since his men couldn't find out at the end of season 1 and since Lionel himself couldn't put a stop to it by having Lex move to Metropolis with him.

I just finished watching the first 3 seasons and watched Crusade. I noticed facts & info given. Lionel in Covenant told Lex that 2 years ago he was diagnosed with the liver disease he had. So it seems like Lionel may have at first wanted Lex in Metropolis so he could hand over the reigns of Luthorcorp since he thought he would probably die, or maybe get Lex's help so he could find a way to keep himself alive, especially after James Beales tipped him off about Dr. Hamilton's experiments with the Nicodemus flower. Once Lionel personally found out from Hamilton that a ship landed in Smallville, his interest shot up even more. Then in Red, he was a blind eyewitness of Clark shooting himself in the hand. Even though he didn't know Clark shot himself in the hand, he did actually pick up the bullets, which would have been lodged in something under normal situations. But the fact that he picked them up was a sign that Clark was special and from Red onward, he referred to Clark as a special boy & became obsessed with him. In no time, Lionel's men found him the octagonal key, likely as a result of getting information from Dr. Hamilton offscreen about where Pete & Ray Wallace found the ship. It's possible that Hamilton lived & joined Lionel because his body was gone before the Luthors showed up at the barn and Pete & Clark never checked his vitals. From then on, we saw Lionel get more & more obsessed as Clark saved him from Byron in Nocturne & the hostage takers in Insurgence. The cave was another thing that added to this.

Another thing I saw was how Lex in Crusade mentioned that Lionel within the last 2 years of that episode funded 6 expeditions to find the stones. This is evidence that Lionel regarded the stones as a mere legend until getting solid evidence of an alien presence, which he got 2 years before Crusade in Duplicity. It also coincides with his liver disease & his desperation to save his own life.

[Theshadow129x]

^ which is further proof that the main story is the kuwatchee story not this veritas crap.

I'm not going to lie I was excided for veritas. I wanted all the plot holes the show had brought up to be filled. But then i started to think about how that story was another story and didnt address the stuff from the past.

You bring up great facts when it comes to Lionel, Xray. I love that. great work on those. I wonder if the only reason they brought in veritas was because they wanted to do include new viewers in its mythology. I know Al/miles said that they know people remember things from 3 years ago they are just trying to get to the next week. That right there made me think that they never had any intentions on wrapping up the story the proper way just making up stuff as they went. I had hopes for ps3 to do things the right way but doesnt seem like it at all. they are just copying Al/miles with incomplete stories.

[jpfort1957]

Time line changes are hard to figure out. If the blade was still around, would it crumble if Davis touched it???????????????????

[xrayvision]

No. Because the timeline change had nothing to do with the Blade. The prophecy is 500 years old. A timeline change in something that happened 20-23 years ago (just before the destruction of Krypton) wouldn't affect any of the events prior to it.