I... Hate.... RETCONS!!!!!!!!

[cloisthelegendbegins]

So we know in this episode that the show is revisiting the legend of the Kawachi caves to make it less about Clark and Lex and more about Clark and Davis. Is this a good idea? Does everything in Smallville's past have to line up with new storylines or does it show a lack of imagination? Did you prefer it when it was more about Clark and Lex? Does it make more sense of the Veritas storyline? And does it mean that the device left to control the Traveller was meant to control Doomsday?

What do you think?

[xrayvision]

They can do whatever they want, but to me it will always be about Clark & Lex as Talisman proved beyond any shadow of a doubt.

It shows a complete lack of imagination. If you ask me, I think Brainiac, when he went back to Krypton in Veritas & was still there in Apocalypse, should have planted a piece of himself in Davis' genetic matter like he did to Clark in Splinter. We all know Davis' genetic matter would have survived Krypton's explosion anyway since that's his very nature. They should have had Brainiac send a signal to Davis/Doomsday (who would have been floating around space) when he got back to Earth in Arctic & summoned him to Earth. This would have completely avoided going back & contradicting the Kawatche legend, which is beyond ridiculous.

[cloisthelegendbegins]

I like the Brainiac angle! To me, I really don't see why everything has to be tied back to the early seasons; the characters already do that. And everything is connected to Clark already, especially when it's Krypton related. I always liked the Clark/Lex angle to the caves and I really don't see why it has to be retconned when there are plenty of different ways to tie Clark and Doomsday together. The fact it was Zod and Faora who created him wasn't enough? That immediately connected him to Clark as Davis' 'parents' were the enemies of Clark's parents. The fact he came to earth with Clark attached to Clark's ship wasn't enough? The parallels between his upbringing and Clark's wasn't enough? The fact that the journey to his destiny parallels Clark's (and not in a good way) isn't enough? Instead we have to have it go back to the caves and have it attached to the Luthors and Veritas again. Just seems like overkill to me. I think they already had enough to work with and could have used their imaginations to throw in a twist no-one could see coming. But then maybe whatever the attachment to Chloe is will be the twist?

Time will tell I guess.

[Bre723]

Talisman was a great episode that set up the future between Clark and Lex.
I think if they take it and twist it into a story about Davis, that will totally ruin what the previous seasons set up.


I always liked the Clark/Lex angle to the caves and I really don't see why it has to be retconned when there are plenty of different ways to tie Clark and Doomsday together. The fact it was Zod and Faora who created him wasn't enough? That immediately connected him to Clark as Davis' 'parents' were the enemies of Clark's parents. The fact he came to earth with Clark attached to Clark's ship wasn't enough?
I agree with this, Lex and Clark are the Kawachi caves, not Davis.

[mjs1973]

I agree with this, Lex and Clark are the Kawachi caves, not Davis.

I also agree but you could say that it is just another way an outside person views the writings on the wall. I do like how the show does remind us of what has happened in the past.

[chlo-el]

It doesn't show a lack of imagination to me for Tess to think that. She wasn't there on Talisman she could not know that Lex touched that knife and it vanished. She interupted the cave drawings as Sageth coming from the same place as Numan, instead of being close to him. It makes sense that she would come to that conclusion.

[Bre723]

It doesn't show a lack of imagination to me for Tess to think that. She wasn't there on Talisman she could not know that Lex touched that knife and it vanished. She interupted the cave drawings as Sageth coming from the same place as Numan, instead of being close to him. It makes sense that she would come to that conclusion.
It could be possible that she knew, remember, Lex kept a journal.

[superspider02]

well i will wait to say anything to after the episode airs.

[Exedore]

It doesn't show a lack of imagination to me for Tess to think that. She wasn't there on Talisman she could not know that Lex touched that knife and it vanished. She interupted the cave drawings as Sageth coming from the same place as Numan, instead of being close to him. It makes sense that she would come to that conclusion.

Unless her statement is corrected on screen (i.e. we see someone stating or implying that Tess got it wrong and Lex is Sageeth) it is a retcon. An atrocious retcon. Especially since all this is supposedly coming from Lionel's journal. Either way it is lazy writing because there really is no reason to drag the Kawatche Caves stuff into the current plotline at all. To even go in that direction is lame. If they want to bring the caves back they should either explore the story of the original Kryptonian who gave birth to the Kawatche legend or bring back Lex to expore the Naman-Sageeth dynamic again. They have never shown any interest in doing the former and the latter is impossible due to MR's exit. Hence it is best to leave this material alone. :)

[jpfort1957]

I guess if Darksied shows up in season 9, they can go back to the caves and read the walls as the fortelling the story of Clark and Darksied.

[Rift]

I find it a less egregious retcon than Doomsday supposedly hitching a ride to Earth on Clark's ship as bioengineered Zod goo. But yes, it's still a retcon.

[Shadowlord367]

That's Tess' interpretation.

However it does make more since that Clark and Davis were "like brothers..." and "Both in love with the same woman"

Chloe?

[myankskent]

What I think is that TPTB should leave the past alone. They are changing the entire story around so that it fits with these last few episodes of season 8 while 100+ episodes of the series ends up making no sense.

[kal-el_Girl]

I personally believe that it was a nice touch that the caves were mentioned. Come on guys, if the writers mention something from past episodes you say that is lack of imagination and if they don't, you complained the lack of continuity... so what is it then?

[The Striving Artist®]

I figured that was the point of "Apacolypse" Brainiac was creating an even more "Bizarro" Superman story.Kill baby Kal-El and attach Davis onto the ship.Then when the ship went to Earth Davis would destroy the human race.But when Clark and Kara interveined Brainiac still managed to attach Davis and completely retconned the Smallville contuinity.Especially Veritas.

[xrayvision]

I personally believe that it was a nice touch that the caves were mentioned. Come on guys, if the writers mention something from past episodes you say that is lack of imagination and if they don't, you complained the lack of continuity... so what is it then?

There's a huge difference mentioning the caves & then contradicting the entire storyline that took years to tell by having Davis be Sageeth when the Starblade crumbled at the hands of Lex, not Davis. The prophecy said whoever's touch made the blade crumble is Sageeth.

This is something that is explainable though. We know Lex is Sageeth but the character's don't since they think he's dead & Sageeth is someone who lives on to fight Naman throughout the years of his life. But the thing is Lex is alive, not dead. So they are all wrong. Lex is still Sageeth. After all, he was Clark's friend who became his enemy, not Davis (who was just an acquaintance). He also caused the Starblade to glow (another prophecized event) & crumble.

So I'm able to overlook the cave legend plothole since the characters got it wrong (though Clark should know better because he *knows* Lex touched the blade & is Sageeth). The stuff with Veritas, the mansion, Clark's arrival, etc is what I just can't overlook because it's blatantly wrong & NOT continuity. It contradicts continuity big time.

[Kschreck]

Yeah this episode had tons and tons of plotholes. I don't think I have ever seen such gaping plotholes on any show before.

I could understand if this episode was written by some low level writer but from Brian Peterson & Kelly Souders? That's extremely discouraging. Specially since the other two producers will be leaving and these guys will be helming season nine.

[BadToad]

I think it just shows a tremendous lack of respect for your origins and your shows past. I understand wanting to advance the story, and moving characters along, and not wanting to dwell so much in the past. But if you are going to specifically reference the past, you can't just make new crap up and forget all that was said, done and seen.

[Blazel]

That's Tess' interpretation.

However it does make more since that Clark and Davis were "like brothers..." and "Both in love with the same woman"

Chloe?
in love with chloe? no. he loves her- yeah, like a friend, and made had a crush on her at some point, but i wouldnt go that far.

[REebee52]

Argh!!!
Anybody who knows me knows I'm a huge defender of the show. When Lana comes back and her and Clark have a romance, I'm not thrilled about it, but I'll understand because it would be foolish for them to act like their feelings have evaporated. When Lana goes on a quest to wear a super suit that absorbs Kryptonite and can't be with Clark any more, it's not at all what I would have done, but I'm not just completely disgusted by it.
What I can't stand are retcons, which are half assed attempts to do cheap plot twists that have no literary merits. God, I hate them. I've never seen a medium pull it off well, because there's always some glaring thing that says "Hey, dips**t, this makes no sense!" Unfortunately, the ones that Smallville has tried to pull have dozens of inconsistencies.
It really all started with Veritas. There had been little retcons here and there, little tweaks that were at least SOMEWHAT explainable. But then there's this stupid secret group that knew Clark was coming the entire time. Which changes all of Lionel's earlier motives, changes the windows in the mansion, and requires you to forget all previous episodes. Then they give us this piece of garbage episode, which once more defies all logic and makes me want to scream. If you can't make something make sense DON'T WRITE IT. Do we REALLY need to have Lionel adopt little Davis? Or have little Davis and little Lex swordfight in the mansion (which Lex isn't even supposed to live in... If I recall all previous flashbacks of kid Lex don't necessarily show it's THAT exact mansion). It's completely unnecessary to tie Bloom to the Luthors.
And then there's the whole Kowatchi myth. Now, I've never been just in love with that particular part of the show (how do a bunch of Native Americans make a knife that gives the holder Kryptonian powers and dissolve when just the right person touches it? I suppose since the show introduced magic, it's acceptable, but at the time it never made sense to me...). Yeah, I know Tess might be getting the whole thing wrong, but there's not point to even bring it up.
And on an unrelated note: She knows, Clark, give up the act. She's practically told you your life story better than you could, and you act like she's an idiot. And you call Lionel Luthor a madman. Granted, he was an ass at one point, but he did a lot to help you in the end.
God I hated this episode. Why can't the writers have people who remember these details, some little, some GLARING, to avoid these inconsistencies? I expect something like this from nineties television; when continuity didn't matter so long as it had cute kids and wholesome values, but today story based shows are the norm.

And on a different note, what exactly was Clark saying when he said "I'll never be that man." That scene flew by me as I was livid with rage, and felt like it was him saying he would never be the hero he should be.

[superspider02]

Well i wouldnt really consider everything in the episode a retcon to what was said before originally for the cave legends and the veristas plot from last year. Its just another view/intreptation on it.

[Malicieux Toutou]

Yeah... the retcons do suck. On the otherhand, the episode did get me excited about the Doomsday storyline. I've given up on Smallville having any sort of logical consistency.

Smallville and its plotholes are like an incredibly beautiful girl who is flawless except for a huge, disgusting wort on her nose. You just have to try to ignore the wort and concentrate on the the good things.

[Kschreck]

Yeah, I was pretty upset with this episode. I miss the old producers and the older seasons of Smallville with the larger budget and less plotholes. I think after running for nearly 8 years now, everyone is getting bored with the show and that's a shame considering Smallville deserves much better.

[REebee52]

Don't get me wrong, I've enjoyed a lot of season 8. It's been actually consistently good, by my standards. I like the Doomsday storyline a lot, but I don't think they needed to go into his past...

[Shadowlord367]

I'm not sure it was quite a retcon, I think it was more of an interpretation on Tess' behalf. I think in "Arctic" both Clark and Lex believed themselves to be Numan and the other Sageeth.

I think this episode brilliantly handled the whole thing. Incorporating Davis into Smallville's early mythology was a great way to handle Doomsday. After all, Doomsday is to Superman as Davis is to Smallville.

The curious thing is that Numan/Sageeth were supposed to be in love with the same woman. In the case of Clark and Lex it was Lana. Which would make it Chloe in the case of Clark and Davis.

Tess' understanding that if she prevents Doomsday and Clark from killing each other, she is thus preventing Clark from becoming Superman.

[Kschreck]

^ Unless they completely toss aside this story arc in later episodes then I am going to have to consider tonight's episode as having tons of plotholes contradicting earlier seasons. I hope it is mentioned that Tess was wrong about her interpretations.

[Shadowlord367]

That could well be. I understand how this could be percieved as a retcon. Hopefully next year the Big Bad doesn't become the new Sageeth.

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----

I thought the biblical references were good though, and a nice callback to the Pilot when Clark was strung up as a scarecrow. Hopefully people don't complain it bordres on blasphemy though.

[Kschreck]

Hopefully next year the writers plan out their stories more then they did this year. Ironically the writers of tonight's episode will be the only two producers for season nine that are staying aboard.

[devilicus rebel]

I don't understand, what is a RETCON?

[BadToad]

The curious thing is that Numan/Sageeth were supposed to be in love with the same woman. In the case of Clark and Lex it was Lana. Which would make it Chloe in the case of Clark and Davis.

Actually, I don't recall any dialogue that supports that. The woman on the cave wall was "the woman he's destined to be with", in reference to Naman. There is absolutely no mention of Segeeth also being in love with her, or any sort of battle over her.

Unless this woman comes up in any other episode other then Skinwalker, and someone remembers the dialogue.

[Shadowlord367]

I don't understand, what is a RETCON?

Retcon means retroactive continuity, which means changing things already established in the past :).

An example of this is the Metropolis distance. At first it was three hours away, then the writers later retconned it to be just a hop, skip and a jump away from Smallville.

[SuperheroFan87]

I don't understand, what is a RETCON?

It stands for "retroactive continuity", it takes already established events, erases them from existence, and puts a different telling of said events in place making everything far more convoluted.

----- Added 39 Seconds later -----


Retcon means retroactive continuity, which means changing things already established in the past :).

An example of this is the Metropolis distance. At first it was three hours away, then the writers later retconned it to be just a hop, skip and a jump away from Smallville.

We posted at the same time!:lol:

[xrayvision]

^ Unless they completely toss aside this story arc in later episodes then I am going to have to consider tonight's episode as having tons of plotholes contradicting earlier seasons. I hope it is mentioned that Tess was wrong about her interpretations.

They should have a scene where Lex shows up & tells her:

"By the way...you were wrong. I am your savior's greatest nemesis" and kills her.

[Fish1941]

"SMALLVILLE" has been one big giant RETCON since it first premiered. It has taken some of you nearly eight years to complain about this?



And on a different note, what exactly was Clark saying when he said "I'll never be that man." That scene flew by me as I was livid with rage, and felt like it was him saying he would never be the hero he should be.


Why did you bother? Did you really think that Clark was going to admit his secret to Tess? Clark Kent?


I really don't understand the *****fest over this episode.

[Kevin24]

LOL, I knew a thread like this would appear.

[SGuthrie27]

Umm, I was okay with some of what they did tonight. The early stuff that showed Davis's arrival didn't really bother me. I wouldn't have minded the Luthors taking Davis in at first if they'd portrayed it as them "stumbling upon" him. But yeah, the whole "Lionel knowing the Traveler was coming and actively searching for him" bit did bother me. So did the mansion flashbacks to a certain extent, even though I thought the young Lex and Davis actors ROCKED in those scenes. And how SWEET would it have been to have gotten John Glover to come back, even if it was just for the flashbacks in this episode?! it might have made the distasteful aspects of these retcons at least a BIT more palatable. More than anything else, I think Lionel's Veritas journal with hand-drawn illustrations was almost more ridiculous than anything listed above, not to mention the fact that Tess got her hands on it so easily (even though she had to steal it). And you're right, Clark is acting like an idiot to keep throwing denial and lame comebacks at Tess when it's OBVIOUS that she knows almost the whole truth about his origin and history. I mean, I can't completely blame him because he doesn't feel like he can totally trust her (and I don't think he can either), but he's not arguing his case that he's not the Traveler really well...

--SGuthrie ><>' :)--

[xrayvision]

"SMALLVILLE" has been one big giant RETCON since it first premiered. It has taken some of you nearly eight years to complain about this?





Why did you bother? Did you really think that Clark was going to admit his secret to Tess? Clark Kent?


I really don't understand the *****fest over this episode.

No it hasn't. Up until last season, they were able to add new elements to existing stories without creating contradictions. Some exceptions are the distance between Smallville & Metropolis & Chloe's backstory.

But things involving Clark, the legend of Naman, Lex's childhood/Julian/etc had new pieces added to them that didn't contradict what was mentioned earlier. Check out Lineage for example. We got all new footage from the meteor shower that we never saw in the Pilot. But it was perfect. Nothing contradicted anything in the Pilot. Nothing. The same is true about Lex. We heard how he got that lead box from his mom as a gift, we heard how Lex was 9 when Julian was born, and how his mom found him dead the day of his baptism. We saw these very things play out in excellent flashbacks in Memoria & even found out the Lex's own mom killed Julian, something that didn't clash with previous facts, because the cause of death wasn't really known. It played perfectly well into why Lionel hated Lex so much.

This type of storytelling is a thing of the past with this show. It's sad but true. They did OK for a while though. Even in season 6, we saw why Lex was almost expelled from Excelsior (something that we learned 1st in season 2's Redux) in Reunion. The year was slightly off, but that was much more minor than the stuff we're seeing now. Now they're violating the fundamental elements of the show.

[REebee52]

No it hasn't. Up until last season, they were able to add new elements to existing stories without creating contradictions. Some exceptions are the distance between Smallville & Metropolis & Chloe's backstory.

But things involving Clark, the legend of Naman, Lex's childhood/Julian/etc had new pieces added to them that didn't contradict what was mentioned earlier. Check out Lineage for example. We got all new footage from the meteor shower that we never saw in the Pilot. But it was perfect. Nothing contradicted anything in the Pilot. Nothing. The same is true about Lex. We heard how he got that lead box from his mom as a gift, we heard how Lex was 9 when Julian was born, and how his mom found him dead the day of his baptism. We saw these very things play out in excellent flashbacks in Memoria & even found out the Lex's own mom killed Julian, something that didn't clash with previous facts, because the cause of death wasn't really known. It played perfectly well into why Lionel hated Lex so much.

This type of storytelling is a thing of the past with this show. It's sad but true. They did OK for a while though. Even in season 6, we saw why Lex was almost expelled from Excelsior (something that we learned 1st in season 2's Redux) in Reunion. The year was slightly off, but that was much more minor than the stuff we're seeing now. Now they're violating the fundamental elements of the show.

Great post, and indeed what I was trying to convey. I don't might flashbacks that help add to a story, I hate flashbacks that change it. As said, Lineage did a lot for the show. It explained a lot of what happened the day of the meteor shower and explains why the Kents don't trust Lionel. What it did NOT do was have Lionel know the exact date of the meteor shower and know Clark's secret all along. Memoria, if I recall right, did not have the Luthor's living in the mansion, because they never actually did until Lex moved in in the pilot (though that's a smaller point).

Memoria is full of flashbacks, and it's my favorite episode of the series. When done right, in a way that adds to the story, a flashback is great. When it requires the story to change, it's not.

[xrayvision]

Yes. The mansion wasn't moved from Scotland until a few weeks before the present day events of the Pilot. They lived in another house back then. Maybe that's where Lionel lived all those years. We never saw Lionel's house in Metropolis.

[IHeartClois]

I actually LOVED the back story. Its great when the give us extra details about what happened since it adds more perspective.

[Kschreck]

I actually LOVED the back story. Its great when the give us extra details about what happened since it adds more perspective.


I think we all love back stories. The problem most of us have is that there are tons and tons of plot holes in this episode due to lazy writing.

[workshyslacker]

As retcons go, this was better than the AoS. My sensitivity threshold is completely lowered.

And the comics are doing it all the time. It's nothing new. I'm grateful if they do it well. There will always be plotholes if you look hard enough. And proactive continuity isn't watertight either.

[gameface25]

WHy do people get so upset over tiny tiny details?

I personally thought there were more positives than negatives to the backstory

- They showed a pretty good in depth view of how Lex got bald, how he was ashamed of it, how he related to Warrior Angel being bald and saw himself as a hero, wanting to save the world, which hasn't been mentioned much if at all on these forums, but a good lil tidbit of writing to show it and foreshadow Lex later in life wanting to save the world, albeit his definition of saving and what to save it form gets misconstrued

- The OP said he had a prob with the Luthors "adopting" Davis... they didnt say they adopted him did they? They just went to the field to find the Traveler and "capture" him, which they did and thought they had, till they ran tests and then later Martha contacted Lionel about getting an adoption set up for Clark... so after 5 days, Lionel abandoned Davis, knowing Clark to be the true traveler

- They show a nice contrast to how Davis was treated vs Clark, and it's relationship to how both turned out.

- The different perspective on the Cave writings was a very good caveat imo. It tied in together alot of foreshadowing over the past few seasons, pointing to Doomsday being Clarks greatest thread, which he really is


If you get that hung up over minor plotholes, you are missing a great show and much better writing than previous seasons :P


That said, I also liked the foreshadowing of Tess using the Injustice league to provoke Clark into being a superhero, at least thats how I took it. I LOVE Tess after this episode

[Timester]

WHy do people get so upset over tiny tiny details?

Tiny details? What?

It's was the premise of the entire season 3, for Rao's sake.

[REebee52]

WHy do people get so upset over tiny tiny details?

I personally thought there were more positives than negatives to the backstory

- They showed a pretty good in depth view of how Lex got bald, how he was ashamed of it, how he related to Warrior Angel being bald and saw himself as a hero, wanting to save the world, which hasn't been mentioned much if at all on these forums, but a good lil tidbit of writing to show it and foreshadow Lex later in life wanting to save the world, albeit his definition of saving and what to save it form gets misconstrued

- The OP said he had a prob with the Luthors "adopting" Davis... they didnt say they adopted him did they? They just went to the field to find the Traveler and "capture" him, which they did and thought they had, till they ran tests and then later Martha contacted Lionel about getting an adoption set up for Clark... so after 5 days, Lionel abandoned Davis, knowing Clark to be the true traveler

- They show a nice contrast to how Davis was treated vs Clark, and it's relationship to how both turned out.

- The different perspective on the Cave writings was a very good caveat imo. It tied in together alot of foreshadowing over the past few seasons, pointing to Doomsday being Clarks greatest thread, which he really is


If you get that hung up over minor plotholes, you are missing a great show and much better writing than previous seasons :P


That said, I also liked the foreshadowing of Tess using the Injustice league to provoke Clark into being a superhero, at least thats how I took it. I LOVE Tess after this episode


I'm just wondering, you do realize all that information on "how Lex got bald" and the fact that he was ashamed of it has already been established, right? And that almost the entire first scene is the exact same from the Pilot episode? These weren't Retcons. I don't hate flashbacks. I hate Retcons, a technique that alters the continuity in order to make the present story fit better.
Lionel Luthor being part of Veritas changed his entire motives for the first three seasons. He always knew Clark was the Traveller, he had always known about Krypton, he even knew the day the meteor shower came. Then he gets his hands on Davis thinking it was him, takes him to live in a mansion that wasn't even built yet, and plays with a young Lex Luthor.
Your phrase: "Knew exactly who the true traveller was" is exactly the problem with the retcon. Watch old episodes, it doesn't make sense anymore if Lionel knew the whole time. This is no minor plot-hole.
I will agree the contrast between Davis and Clark was nice, I had no problem with that, but they could have shown Davis's past without involving the Luthors.

[BadToad]

Lionel Luthor being part of Veritas changed his entire motives for the first three seasons. He always knew Clark was the Traveller, he had always known about Krypton, he even knew the day the meteor shower came. Then he gets his hands on Davis thinking it was him, takes him to live in a mansion that wasn't even built yet, and plays with a young Lex Luthor.
Your phrase: "Knew exactly who the true traveller was" is exactly the problem with the retcon. Watch old episodes, it doesn't make sense anymore if Lionel knew the whole time. This is no minor plot-hole.
I will agree the contrast between Davis and Clark was nice, I had no problem with that, but they could have shown Davis's past without involving the Luthors.

This was my biggest retcon issue.

It makes NO sense that Lionel knew Clark was the Traveler all along. None at all. Go back and watch the older episodes.

If they wanted to suggest that Lionel knew something was coming down in the meteor shower, and thats why he took Davis, but then became convinced it wasn't him and was still looking for the Traveler? Thats fine. Thats a tweak in continuity, but its a bend, not a break. But now he knew about Clark the whole time? Its ridiculous, IMO.

[saltyweeks]

If you guys hate retcons I hope you never pick up the Superman comics (or any comic books). You'll go postal. Retcons are to super heroes what milk is to cookies!

I feel you gameface25. That's my main issue with the "fan" forums. I don't mind good criticism and opinions, but the best Smallville episode ever could air and you'd never know it here.

If someone gave last night a 1 because a super hero show rebooted (OMG!) why the heck are they watching this thing? The pain? They love to hate? Surely there is a reality show somewhere out there for them.

[Timester]

If you guys hate retcons I hope you never pick up the Superman comics (or any comic books). You'll go postal. Retcons are to super heroes what milk is to cookies!

Comics != TV shows. AND they are explained in the comics (like "Superboy-Prime punched a wall" or "it was magic").

[Minela]

Don't get me wrong, I've enjoyed a lot of season 8. It's been actually consistently good, by my standards. I like the Doomsday storyline a lot, but I don't think they needed to go into his past...

I agree. I hate retcons. Especially huge ones like this. I thought Tess was awesome in Turbulence and I really loved her, but now? I hate Tess for this retcon mess. May Doomsday kill her.

[badraven]

Well as a long time comic book reader retcons don't bother me that much. I've become used to them. There just a way for new writers or writers later on to reinterpret past stories. Some are big, some are small. Some are better done than others and some suck. The Veritas/Traveler retcon was very big and I don't think the best idea. Simply because it really calls into question everything that Lionel did for the first four seasons of the show. However, it was done, and I liked the story so I see nothing wrong with them taking another look at it in season 8. In comics, the alternative is to hit the "reset" button and 'poof'- sometimes years, decades of stories are just gone, they never happened. And you are supposed to keep buying and just accepted it. Believe me, it's much better for writers to at least try and rework old stories than just make them no longer matter.

[EternalTwilight]

I agree. I hate retcons. Especially huge ones like this. I thought Tess was awesome in Turbulence and I really loved her, but now? I hate Tess for this retcon mess. May Doomsday kill her.

I'm really glad I'm not the only one who thought this. Tess absolutely enraged me in this episode. I hope she's not back next season.

[Kevin24]

WHy do people get so upset over tiny tiny details?

I personally thought there were more positives than negatives to the backstory

- They showed a pretty good in depth view of how Lex got bald, how he was ashamed of it, how he related to Warrior Angel being bald and saw himself as a hero, wanting to save the world, which hasn't been mentioned much if at all on these forums, but a good lil tidbit of writing to show it and foreshadow Lex later in life wanting to save the world, albeit his definition of saving and what to save it form gets misconstrued

- The OP said he had a prob with the Luthors "adopting" Davis... they didnt say they adopted him did they? They just went to the field to find the Traveler and "capture" him, which they did and thought they had, till they ran tests and then later Martha contacted Lionel about getting an adoption set up for Clark... so after 5 days, Lionel abandoned Davis, knowing Clark to be the true traveler

- They show a nice contrast to how Davis was treated vs Clark, and it's relationship to how both turned out.

- The different perspective on the Cave writings was a very good caveat imo. It tied in together alot of foreshadowing over the past few seasons, pointing to Doomsday being Clarks greatest thread, which he really is


If you get that hung up over minor plotholes, you are missing a great show and much better writing than previous seasons :P


That said, I also liked the foreshadowing of Tess using the Injustice league to provoke Clark into being a superhero, at least thats how I took it. I LOVE Tess after this episode


If you guys hate retcons I hope you never pick up the Superman comics (or any comic books). You'll go postal. Retcons are to super heroes what milk is to cookies!

I feel you gameface25. That's my main issue with the "fan" forums. I don't mind good criticism and opinions, but the best Smallville episode ever could air and you'd never know it here.

If someone gave last night a 1 because a super hero show rebooted (OMG!) why the heck are they watching this thing? The pain? They love to hate? Surely there is a reality show somewhere out there for them.

I agree wholeheartedly with both of you.:cool:

[REebee52]

Well as a long time comic book reader retcons don't bother me that much. I've become used to them. There just a way for new writers or writers later on to reinterpret past stories. Some are big, some are small. Some are better done than others and some suck. The Veritas/Traveler retcon was very big and I don't think the best idea. Simply because it really calls into question everything that Lionel did for the first four seasons of the show. However, it was done, and I liked the story so I see nothing wrong with them taking another look at it in season 8. In comics, the alternative is to hit the "reset" button and 'poof'- sometimes years, decades of stories are just gone, they never happened. And you are supposed to keep buying and just accepted it. Believe me, it's much better for writers to at least try and rework old stories than just make them no longer matter.

Why would they not matter anymore? I don't understand that.
The thing about comic book retcons (I've read a few, not avidly) is they tend to be explained differently. It's more like "He changed the past" or "Magic was involved" or "two universes collided and a Crisis occured." Deus ex machina, yes, but at least it's explained. This is either just the writers messing up or neglecting the first four/five years of the show.

[dunkman]

I agree that there was a lot of retcon in this episode, but I kind of like it! Re-explaining something that you thought you understood before in a different way that still fits (I'm sure it wasn't the original intention of the writers to be talking about Doomsday with the Kawatchie caves, but it works!) is kind of clever, IMO. It's nothing like the Crisis of Infinite Earths, in any case!

[dreamsofnever]

Keep in mind that Brainiac went back in time at the end of last season and he changed things.

I don't see this new information as a retcon so much as a sign that the past changed by Brainiac going back and making sure Doomsday made it onto Clark's ship.

As for Lionel knowing Clark is the traveler, I watched old episodes after season 7 and it's... a bit ambiguous. It's a stretch, but I think they established from the start that Lionel knew more than he let on. I would have to go back and watch some of the old episodes to get specific scene examples, but it's possible.

Not probable, but possible.

Anyways, I think the whole point of this episode was not to retcon things exactly but to show how things changed since Brainiac changed the past.

As for the Kawatchie Cave legends... I think that's not so much a retcon but Tess' interpretation of the legend. I think a lot of legends and prophecies are ambiguous like that. There are always multiple ways to interpret them and very rarely is there a clear-cut answer as to the correct way to look at something like that.


All that said, I'm not a huge fan of time traveling stories because the logic makes my head hurt so I'm still undecided about this whole "Doomsday was there the whole time because Brainiac went back in time and made sure he made it onto Clark's ship." But that's another thread entirely!

[REebee52]

Keep in mind that Brainiac went back in time at the end of last season and he changed things.

I don't see this new information as a retcon so much as a sign that the past changed by Brainiac going back and making sure Doomsday made it onto Clark's ship.

As for Lionel knowing Clark is the traveler, I watched old episodes after season 7 and it's... a bit ambiguous. It's a stretch, but I think they established from the start that Lionel knew more than he let on. I would have to go back and watch some of the old episodes to get specific scene examples, but it's possible.

Not probable, but possible.

Anyways, I think the whole point of this episode was not to retcon things exactly but to show how things changed since Brainiac changed the past.

As for the Kawatchie Cave legends... I think that's not so much a retcon but Tess' interpretation of the legend. I think a lot of legends and prophecies are ambiguous like that. There are always multiple ways to interpret them and very rarely is there a clear-cut answer as to the correct way to look at something like that.


All that said, I'm not a huge fan of time traveling stories because the logic makes my head hurt so I'm still undecided about this whole "Doomsday was there the whole time because Brainiac went back in time and made sure he made it onto Clark's ship." But that's another thread entirely!

Ugh. Don't get me started on the Brainiac retcon. It was explained, so I can't complain about it the same way I can this one, but I still don't like it. Having Clark put himself on the ship... I much prefer the scene where Lara and Jor El do it in I think "Memoria" (one more reason that episode is incredible).

[marcella]

I hate them too

[Hopefulsuicide]

Veritas is like Smallville's kryptonite... every single time it's used in an episode, the episode coincidentally sucks... if i could erase one thing from Smallville it would be Veritas, even over super lana! Veritas has been the cause of almost everything i have hated about Smallville in the last two years...

[herolee10]

well for the Naman and Sageeth part, it was only Tess's view on things..not really the actual deal.

I think they overall did well with not getting to messy with confliciting past acknowledgements of events in the series.

The only things I didn't like were..

1. Lex wasn't supposed to get the box contained with Kryptonite until his bday

2. If Lionel's team were able to recover Davis so quickly in the field back when Davis appeared, why didn't they get the spaceship right away as well?

3. Also, If Lionel's team were able to get there on time, why didn't Lionel call them for help instead of getting the Kents to drive him to the hospital?

4. What prevented Lionel from getting Clark from the Kents after the journal had supposedly revealed that Lionel knew the truth somewhat about Clark for quite sometime?

[Hopefulsuicide]

Why did the box have kryptonite in it at all?

[devilneedsaride]

I love the title of this thread for so aptly capturing my thoughts on this episode.

I can't even begin to go into all the terrible things this episode's retcons did. I mean... whaaaat?

I'm gonna go catatonic if I don't stop trying to make it make sense in my head. Gah.

[landonalmighty]

I like that they talk about stuff from past episodes but as soon as they said the painting in the cave was clark and doomsday I told my wife that it was bs and that to me it will always be clark and lex thats his true enemy if michael didnt leave the series they probably would have never changed the painting to mean doomsday.

[ram711]

I don't think the writers are changing the paintings in the caves to be Davis instead of Lex. I truly believe that this belief is only the interpretation of a single character, who is Tess. I, for one, will always believe that Lex is Sageeth as interpreted on the cave wall. Why? Well, to disprove this, the writers have to somehow bypass these two things:

1. It was said that Sageeth was once the friend Naman, who he later betrayed. This clearly is Lex, as Davis was never a close enough friend to Clark to betray him.

2. In season three episode 'Talisman', they said that the star blade would disintegrate if touched by Sageeth, which happened when Lex touched it, not Davis.

The above two points can never be changed. Thus I believe that Tess is just twisting the story to get Clark to do what she wants. She's basically saying that Lex is the past and Davis is his current enemy and he must be stopped. She even goes further later in the episode by comparing him to Christ and saying that Davis is a Judas-like character that he must overcome. Two separate, yet incomplete, statements by Tess that try to push Clark towards his destiny in two different ways. So, to get her Clark to go after Davis, Tess first used her interpretation of the cave walls to be Doomsday instead of Lex. When that didn't convince him, she compared him to Christ and Davis to Judas. And it still didn't work.

Plus, nothing in the episode gave the indication that Tess's interpretation of the cave walls was fact. Hell, I'll take the word of the leaders of the Kawatche tribe, of whom the paintings belong, over Tess, who, while a cool character, simply does not have all the facts.

[landonalmighty]

Those are all great points I wish I could remember everything so clearly like the people that post here because that would have saved me and my wife the anger of thinking they were changing the meaning of the paintings which maybe the producers want to but after those two points I dont see how they can

[mistaguitarmasta]

I see it as more of an alternate interpretation rather than a retcon. I personally prefer the Clark/Lex interpretation, but the Clark/Bloomsday interpretation certainly has a degree of validity as well.

[stenochick]

well for the Naman and Sageeth part, it was only Tess's view on things..not really the actual deal.

I think they overall did well with not getting to messy with confliciting past acknowledgements of events in the series.

The only things I didn't like were..

1. Lex wasn't supposed to get the box contained with Kryptonite until his bday

2. If Lionel's team were able to recover Davis so quickly in the field back when Davis appeared, why didn't they get the spaceship right away as well?

3. Also, If Lionel's team were able to get there on time, why didn't Lionel call them for help instead of getting the Kents to drive him to the hospital?

4. What prevented Lionel from getting Clark from the Kents after the journal had supposedly revealed that Lionel knew the truth somewhat about Clark for quite sometime?

I agree with everyone about the sloppiness of this retcon. I thought Veritas was a very cool concept, but in execution it failed because it contained gaping plotholes. I think they could have kept the Veritas concept, but had the members be more unsure about what the transmissions meant or who they were from.

Also, despite the Veritas transmissions, the meteor shower should have taken them by surprise and then when it happened, Lionel could have said, "Oh, maybe this has to do with the arrival of the traveler" as opposed to it appearing as if he was planning that day.

There should have been some ambiguity so that we could look back and say, well, Lionel was suspicious of the Kents but never really knew for sure until later on.

In Eternal, they had Davis in too close proximity to Clark and the ship for it to make sense. How could the Kents and Lionel's men not cross paths? Plus, if Lionel was so sure, he would have been there himself. Also, if he thought that Davis was a normal human, why not just call child protective services and say that you found a naked boy where they meteors landed so that he could be put in foster care while a search is conducted for his parents?

[amberdawn]

Retcons on this don't surprise me, sadly.

[miller31]

I don't understand why this ep is causing so many people angst. I, for one, enjoyed the tying up of loose ends and different perspective on the past that Tess brought to it. To me, the explanation made sense (and I never invested too much in the Indians anyway). Being based in Smallville (the town) and advancing the Season 7 plotlines brought me a nice sense of nostalgia while we made progress.

The only thing that I'm not sure of is, how did Zod send Davis to Earth at the same time as Clark arrived? I actually enjoyed this idea, just not certain if this has been covered before. It had me kinda wondering if Doomsday was always a monster or just goo, but assumed a similar "shell" to Clark because of his proximity. You've got to admit, both guys are the "tall, dark, and handsome" stereotype and have the same kind of effect on Chloe. :)

Maybe I'm not as big a fan as some of you, but I never let continuity get in the way of a good story (which I thought this was). It actually helped me appreciate the backstory more to see it as "fitting together" instead of the "make it up as we go along" approach some of these episodes have seemed in the past. We even got to see a little Lex (no pun intended).

This is definitely the most I've ever enjoyed Doomsday who, in the comics, always seemed to me to be just a "throwaway character". "We need someone to kill Superman...I know, let's create a Kryptonian killing machine". Sam and the writers have done a great job developing their different take on it.

For those who swear that only Lex could be the legendary nemesis because "they were once friends", the symbol actually looks like they're connected. IMHO, there is a much deeper connection between fellow Krptonians than Clark and Lex.

[UpandAtom]

The connection between Doomsday and Sageeth didn't really bother me. Clark himself said in Talisman that because the legend was never written down, it could be interpreted in a hundred different ways. For instance, the Indians said that Naman had the strength of 10 men, which Clark clearly surpasses.

Doomsday is a bigger threat to Clark than Lex is, even in the comics, so it makes sense that he is Clark's biggest enemy. Also, Kyla said that Naman and Segeeth were supposed to battle for eternity, and since Lex is mortal, he cannot, but two invulnerable Kryptonians could.

The only thing unexplainable is the knife shattering in Talisman, although it does tie into how Lionel and Lex both thought they were Clark's greatest enemy. Maybe Sageeth is supposed to be a concept rather than an actual person, representing all of Superman's greatest evils having been former friends.

[BrokenHero]

Ok. Bear with me as I try to piece together how this entire show could actually fit together despite the best efforst of the writers to tear it apart (or at least not explain their reasoning).

It seems to me there are 2 points in the series at which major continuity "errors" took place: Veritas and Eternal. The major problems involve Lionel's changing motives (which admittedly changed throughout the series) and the events of the day of the meteor shower. We can all pretty much agree that all of these things cannot fit into 1 timeline, or even 2 timelines. But what about 3?

It has been said that Brainiac going back in time at the end of Veritas could be an explanation of why Doomsday suddenly appears in the story. But how would this time travel explain Lionel's sudden knowledge of the Traveler and when and where he would come? There must be a 3rd timeline.

Let me suggest the possibility (and I haven't thought through all the details yet) that the 3rd timeline came about when Zod was sent back to the Phantom Zone in "Zod". It's already been pretty much established (I think) in non-canon stories online, that Zod had been communicating with people on Earth in the past from the PZ. He appeared to Lana's ancestor-witch-chick and I think to Ezra Small. The point is that Zod can somehow communicate with the outside world at different points in history (I think it has to do with the PZ being outside of time). This is the whole basis for all the prophecies to begin with, including the Kawatche caves and Genevieve Teague's obsessions.

So, my suggestion is: what if, after Zod was sent back to the PZ, he went back and communicated different or more messages to various people in history, causing the Veritas group to form in the first place. Instead of just Genevieve knowing about the traveler, most people got involved and it became a conspiracy, which eventually includes Lionel. Lionel then has more interest in Smallville, and decides to move his mansion there earlier and to live there. It also means his behavior and motives on the day of the meteor shower could change.

Like I said, I haven't thought out all the details. But if we remember that Zod can send messages to the past, we have another mechanism to create new timelines.

In short, I think there are 3 timelines:
1) Season 1 to Season 5
2) Season 6 beginning with Clark sending Zod back to the PZ until right before "Apocalypse" in Season 7
3) Apocalypse to the present

It's a stretch, I know. But instead of complaining about retconning, I take it as a challenge to make it all fit. I can't let bad writers ruin a good show!

[DigitalKing]

What if it wasn't Lionel's journal, but rather Lion-El's? He could have hidden it somewhere not even Lionel knew about in early S5 after breaking out of the...eh. It was worth a try.

[Pantalaimon]

I don't have a problem with it simply being Tess' interpretation. She is about to use it as an excuse for unleashing all hell on Clark in order to force him to fulfill his destiny. I rather like this concept. It's a new taste of evil (or 'morally dubious behaviour').

Lex interpreted the prophecy in such a way that it gave him a purpose - a reason to gather power for himself in order to be able to keep aliens in check who would arrive on earth. He even went as far as suggesting that he himself was in fact Naman.

Tess is doing a similar thing, but for different reasons. She wants to push Clark/Naman. However, she is also gathering power for herself to achieve this goal.

Ultimately, through this prophecy, Smallville creates a nice portrait of what it means to be a power hungry person. Both Lex and Tess believe they have righteous motivations, but in the end it is all about control and power and inevitably corruption.

[stenochick]

What if it wasn't Lionel's journal, but rather Lion-El's? He could have hidden it somewhere not even Lionel knew about in early S5 after breaking out of the...eh. It was worth a try.

That is a great spin! It would explain the ability to sketch like a professional illustrator scenes that one did not witness in person.

Lionel could have created this journal during the times that he was "cataract-eyed" as Jor-El's vessel.

He gave up all his scribbling to Chloe back in season 7 (maybe even some in season 6), so there would have to be some reason this journal was kept hidden.

But it is not beyond the scope of reason that Lionel created the journal and hid the journal from even himself while in his vessel-state.

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----


I don't have a problem with it simply being Tess' interpretation. She is about to use it as an excuse for unleashing all hell on Clark in order to force him to fulfill his destiny. I rather like this concept. It's a new taste of evil (or 'morally dubious behaviour').

Lex interpreted the prophecy in such a way that it gave him a purpose - a reason to gather power for himself in order to be able to keep aliens in check who would arrive on earth. He even went as far as suggesting that he himself was in fact Naman.

Tess is doing a similar thing, but for different reasons. She wants to push Clark/Naman. However, she is also gathering power for herself to achieve this goal.

Ultimately, through this prophecy, Smallville creates a nice portrait of what it means to be a power hungry person. Both Lex and Tess believe they have righteous motivations, but in the end it is all about control and power and inevitably corruption.

Great post!