Biblical References in "Eternal"...

[moviefan2k4]

In this episode (as with many in the show's history), chracters made some very frequent references to the New Testament, specifically the events surrounding Judas Iscariot at the time of Jesus' trial.

However, one thing made me flinch: Tess saying that Jesus would've never risen from the grave if Judas hadn't betrayed Him. She also said that Jesus came back to face Judas. These are both contradictory to Scripture, as the reason for the Resurrection was to break Satan's hold on humanity, and in turn conquer death itself, not Judas alone. Also, its very clear that Jesus would've risen, no matter who would've betrayed him. It wasn't part of Jesus' plan, but rather of God the Father's. Judas had a choice, and he made it. By saying that it was necessary for Judas to sin so Christ could live again, that seems like a huge misinterpretation of Christianity. What are your thoughts?

[O'Neill]

I caught that as well... Seems like the writers are reading from a different Bible than im familiar with.

[RPintorO]

Same here...

[dru-zod2501]

It's not unexpected that someone like tess wouldn't buy into the divinity of Christ, Lex and his crew aren't known for that faith . It's not unheard of in the real world either. I'm sorry if anyone was offended

[Dark Knight23]

that's interesting haven't watched the episode yet but I will certainly comment on it after I watch the episode.

[ram711]

I don't think it was the intent of the writers for heavy religious thought. I think the general point Tess was trying to make was it was Judas' betrayal that directly led to Christ's crucifixion, which then led to his resurrection. So, basically if Judas were not to betray Christ, there wouldn't have been a crucifixion, and in turn, there would have been no resurrection.

I'm not saying I agree with it all, but Tess was clearly making Clark out to be a savior. And in her eyes, he needs that Judas figure to betray him in order for him to accept who he really is. Who knows? Maybe it's clever foreshadowing. Davis (as Judas) kills Clark (as Christ), which causes him to die and then resurrect, forcing to overcome his challenge, effectively turning him into the hero everyone knows. A true savior.

[Kschreck]

Yeah but we all want to see the writers get the facts right. Specially when they can't even do that about past episodes on their own show.

[moviefan2k4]

The difference though in using such an illustration is this: Jesus had already accepted His destiny at the time of Judas' betrayal. Also, had Judas not betrayed Christ, someone else probably would've, because Jesus was sent specifically to give His life as a ransom for sin. Therefore, His crucifixion and resurrection were predestined, no matter the catalyst.

[Skaterpen357]

Yeah, if I remember correctly, in John, at least, Satan entered Judas when he used the dish...and I think in all four gospels, Jesus knew Judas would betray him before he ended up betraying him. So Judas, in that way, was "supposed" to betray Jesus. It's not a good thing that he did, but it was necessary for good to come out of that evil (Judas' betrayal leading to Christ's resurrection).

And I don't think Tess was implying Jesus rose to confront Judas, seeing as how he hanged himself before Jesus rose anyway; that's just the one difference in her Clark-Jesus/Davis-Judas comparison. I agree with ram711's entire post, too, and he put it much more plainly than I can.

[moviefan2k4]

The writers also got the story of King David and Bathsheba slightly wrong as well, way back in Season 2.

[Saber]

I think SV has proven they are not sticklers for details. They have given a lot of episodes in these past 8 yrs the identifiable kiss and then thrown the characters under the bus out of indulgence.

[thehenry89]

didn't bother me

[bobby1984]

i dont know if they r using it out of text or just bending it to fix the show but they did have it way wrong from the facts, and why if tess knows clark is saving people and using his powers for good isnt that fulfilling his destiny so why would she have to use it

[batfinx]

Smallville's original mythology worked better when it was Lex, because Clark and Lex were close and Lex did betray Clark. There is absolutely no closeness with Clark and Davis and so the idea of a betrayal doesn't work even without the theological comparison. I can't believe they retconned their own myth :lol:

[galatians221]

In this episode (as with many in the show's history), chracters made some very frequent references to the New Testament, specifically the events surrounding Judas Iscariot at the time of Jesus' trial.

However, one thing made me flinch: Tess saying that Jesus would've never risen from the grave if Judas hadn't betrayed Him. She also said that Jesus came back to face Judas. These are both contradictory to Scripture, as the reason for the Resurrection was to break Satan's hold on humanity, and in turn conquer death itself, not Judas alone. Also, its very clear that Jesus would've risen, no matter who would've betrayed him. It wasn't part of Jesus' plan, but rather of God the Father's. Judas had a choice, and he made it. By saying that it was necessary for Judas to sin so Christ could live again, that seems like a huge misinterpretation of Christianity. What are your thoughts?

As a preacher I was thrilled with it. She proclaimed Jesus as the Savior of mankind. She pointed out that Judas played an important role and the theology goes no deeper than that but how many secular TV shows nowadays declare Jesus death and resurrection as being foundational to saving mankind? This comes a week before Good Friday as well so I was thrilled with it.

[ClarkyBoy14]

The difference though in using such an illustration is this: Jesus had already accepted His destiny at the time of Judas' betrayal. Also, had Judas not betrayed Christ, someone else probably would've, because Jesus was sent specifically to give His life as a ransom for sin. Therefore, His crucifixion and resurrection were predestined, no matter the catalyst.

I agree. I think, had Judas not betrayed Jesus, there would have been another betrayer. Afterall, Jesus came to earth to die for the world.

----- Added 50 Seconds later -----


but how many secular TV shows nowadays declare Jesus death and resurrection as being foundational to saving mankind? This comes a week before Good Friday as well so I was thrilled with it.

That's true...

[princessdiana]

When I mentioned the Biblical references in Turbulence I was told I was overthinking. Guess this show is, or is trying to be a little deeper than Gossip Girl. This is what I wrote in the Turbulence thread about that episodes biblical references:

Clark/Superman has always been associated with Christ. Al/Miles have talked about it regarding SV in the past. We of course have the "scarecrow" scene in the first episode. Veritas, the traveler etc.

I found it interesting how they used this symbolism in this episode starting with the the opening and the painting in the church of Christ dying in Mary Magdeline's arms much like the scene in The Death of Superman with Lois holding Superman.

Then we have Davis, the dark, fallen from heaven symbol of Satan. Chloe, is she Judas or Peter? Is Tess Pontius Pilate,(the gown was interesting at the end) or maybe she is Judas. She'll betray Clark with a kiss.

Very interesting

Guess I was pretty much on track. Tess has it wrong in Eternal, DD is not Judas, he is Satan, the symbol of destruction to mankind. Chloe is appears to represent Judas. Whe locked that door, taking those 30 peices of silver. Tess is Harod.

[RPintorO]

When I mentioned the Biblical references in Turbulence I was told I was overthinking. Guess this show is, or is trying to be a little deeper than Gossip Girl. This is what I wrote in the Turbulence thread about that episodes biblical references:

Clark/Superman has always been associated with Christ. Al/Miles have talked about it regarding SV in the past. We of course have the "scarecrow" scene in the first episode. Veritas, the traveler etc.

I found it interesting how they used this symbolism in this episode starting with the the opening and the painting in the church of Christ dying in Mary Magdeline's arms much like the scene in The Death of Superman with Lois holding Superman.

Then we have Davis, the dark, fallen from heaven symbol of Satan. Chloe, is she Judas or Peter? Is Tess Pontius Pilate,(the gown was interesting at the end) or maybe she is Judas. She'll betray Clark with a kiss.

Very interesting

Guess I was pretty much on track. Tess has it wrong in Eternal, DD is not Judas, he is Satan, the symbol of destruction to mankind. Chloe is appears to represent Judas. Whe locked that door, taking those 30 peices of silver. Tess is Harod.

No kidding, Doomsday is Satan.

[cksidekick]

I think there is a bigger issue going on here as well. On top of the Judas references, I think they are trying to have Tess put him on that God like level and Clark will have none of it. Superman does not have a God complex, even though Bryan Singer thinks he does. Smallville Clark answered Tess perfectly. He's not going to be that guy.

[Sunny8]

In this episode (as with many in the show's history), chracters made some very frequent references to the New Testament, specifically the events surrounding Judas Iscariot at the time of Jesus' trial.

However, one thing made me flinch: Tess saying that Jesus would've never risen from the grave if Judas hadn't betrayed Him. She also said that Jesus came back to face Judas. These are both contradictory to Scripture, as the reason for the Resurrection was to break Satan's hold on humanity, and in turn conquer death itself, not Judas alone. Also, its very clear that Jesus would've risen, no matter who would've betrayed him. It wasn't part of Jesus' plan, but rather of God the Father's. Judas had a choice, and he made it. By saying that it was necessary for Judas to sin so Christ could live again, that seems like a huge misinterpretation of Christianity. What are your thoughts?

Tess was wrong. Judas was a mere tool. Satan was the real enemy. He could have used anyone else even if Judas did not exist. There are a lot of people that give themselves over to evil for 30 pieces of silver.

[Clana4Life]

In this episode (as with many in the show's history), chracters made some very frequent references to the New Testament, specifically the events surrounding Judas Iscariot at the time of Jesus' trial.

However, one thing made me flinch: Tess saying that Jesus would've never risen from the grave if Judas hadn't betrayed Him. She also said that Jesus came back to face Judas. These are both contradictory to Scripture, as the reason for the Resurrection was to break Satan's hold on humanity, and in turn conquer death itself, not Judas alone. Also, its very clear that Jesus would've risen, no matter who would've betrayed him. It wasn't part of Jesus' plan, but rather of God the Father's. Judas had a choice, and he made it. By saying that it was necessary for Judas to sin so Christ could live again, that seems like a huge misinterpretation of Christianity. What are your thoughts?

This is a great thread Moviefan2k4. :) Thank you for setting the record straight because there will be people who don't know the history who may come away thinking that what the character Tess said is how it actually happened. It was not necessary for Judas to sin so that Jesus could live. Sin had already taken place from the times of Adam and Eve and the high priests and Pharisees had already declared they were going to kill Jesus. Judas was a tool. He simply showed the soldiers where and who Jesus was. The plot had already been set in motion. I agree, if it had not been Judas, they would have just hired someone else. The part about Jesus coming back to face Judas...WHAT???:confused: They took big creative license there. Personally, I'd rather they leave out biblical references entirely if they can't get it right. To date, they've recreated the Samson & Delilah story, the David and Bathsheba story and now Judas & Jesus. I'm just curious, do they get their mythological stories correct? They are a lot of references to that - for example Isis.

[jsith99]

I think they are just making tess to be a fanatic like they have in religious terrorist groups. They take from their holy books only the passeges that support their plans and chuck all the rest

[xrayvision]

In this episode (as with many in the show's history), chracters made some very frequent references to the New Testament, specifically the events surrounding Judas Iscariot at the time of Jesus' trial.

However, one thing made me flinch: Tess saying that Jesus would've never risen from the grave if Judas hadn't betrayed Him. She also said that Jesus came back to face Judas. These are both contradictory to Scripture, as the reason for the Resurrection was to break Satan's hold on humanity, and in turn conquer death itself, not Judas alone. Also, its very clear that Jesus would've risen, no matter who would've betrayed him. It wasn't part of Jesus' plan, but rather of God the Father's. Judas had a choice, and he made it. By saying that it was necessary for Judas to sin so Christ could live again, that seems like a huge misinterpretation of Christianity. What are your thoughts?

I was also bothered by that. I disagree completely that Clark needs to die before he can become Superman. That's a bunch of horsecrap. Superman was alive for 50-60 years until he died in the comics & was well established before he died.

What are they trying to say that anything he does prior to a possible death at the hands of Doomsday is meaningless?

I didn't mind some of the Biblical references in Turbulence, but this week they bothered me because like you said they were off & they were comparing Clark too much to Jesus & there's a big difference between the 2.

[Lilah]

Personally, I think Chloe is more Judas than Davis. But out of everyone, Lex is... everyone remember "I loved you like a brother..."? I love it when they do biblical references and make Superman to be a model of Christ, because he was written that way intentionally.

[vikingjedi]

In this episode (as with many in the show's history), chracters made some very frequent references to the New Testament, specifically the events surrounding Judas Iscariot at the time of Jesus' trial.

However, one thing made me flinch: Tess saying that Jesus would've never risen from the grave if Judas hadn't betrayed Him. She also said that Jesus came back to face Judas. These are both contradictory to Scripture, as the reason for the Resurrection was to break Satan's hold on humanity, and in turn conquer death itself, not Judas alone. Also, its very clear that Jesus would've risen, no matter who would've betrayed him. It wasn't part of Jesus' plan, but rather of God the Father's. Judas had a choice, and he made it. By saying that it was necessary for Judas to sin so Christ could live again, that seems like a huge misinterpretation of Christianity. What are your thoughts?


You got it right. What does the devil do? Twist scripture. I think they're comparing Tess to the devil. She's whispering in Clark's ear trying to tempt him. Like Jesus was tempted by the devil. Most people don't realize this but the devil tried to get Jesus to commit suicide saying that if you're really protected by angels jump off the cliff and they will save you. That would have been a sin because it's putting God to foolish tests.

[borednow]

Really I'm just sick of the heavy handed religious comparisons...

I'm not Christian, and I really don't care if shows take religious connotations.

But I am really sick of hearing this Superman=Jesus theory the writers have going.

Tess took a sledge hammer to my brain with it. As a good friend once said: Religious comparisons only work well when they are subtle. This was anything but.

[Lilah]

^Well that's probably true. But you can't deny that its been written that way for 70 years...

[borednow]

Umm... denies... The creators of Superman were Jewish! He has always been a savior but not in the spiritual sense...

[Lilah]

I said written not created.... They may not have created him to model Christ, but that's how writers of movies, shows and comic books have been writing him for decades.

There's a really neat book called The Gospel according to the World's Greatest Superhero that explains all the references and has interviews with writers, producers, directors, actors... etc...

[Cyclonekat]

Really I'm just sick of the heavy handed religious comparisons...

I'm not Christian, and I really don't care if shows take religious connotations.

But I am really sick of hearing this Superman=Jesus theory the writers have going.

Tess took a sledge hammer to my brain with it. As a good friend once said: Religious comparisons only work well when they are subtle. This was anything but.

To be honest, as a religion major,
I've studied the effects of religion and no matter what you do you can't get away from religion, it is a major part of our world, its been ingrained within our society whether we like it or not, and whether we admit it or not.
It may have been a bit heavy handed in the episode for some,
but I really enjoyed the reference and thought it served as a nice little tease at Clark's impending death in Doomsday . And it also made me think deeper about that point, which was a nice little educational/theoretical interlude during the commercial break. Yes. I actually did do that...

(And to be fair, Superman has been compared to Jesus ever since his creation. And superheroes themselves are nothing more than modern retakes on greek gods and goddesses.:D I'm thinking of writing my thesis on this very idea. It's going to be SWEET.:D I am SUCH a nerd. )


Umm... denies... The creators of Superman were Jewish! He has always been a savior but not in the spiritual sense...
Ahh yes, but the Jews, are still waiting for their "Messiah" so therefore, Superman could have very well have had traits that would be similar to Jesus, just because "Messiah-ish" traits tend to be similar. That is if Seigel and Schuster wrote him to be like a kind of "Messiah." (Note, I'm not saying one religion is right or wrong, or one theory here is right or wrong, I just like discussing things on a theoretical level, so I hope that I haven't offended anyone :) )

[xrayvision]

You got it right. What does the devil do? Twist scripture. I think they're comparing Tess to the devil. She's whispering in Clark's ear trying to tempt him. Like Jesus was tempted by the devil. Most people don't realize this but the devil tried to get Jesus to commit suicide saying that if you're really protected by angels jump off the cliff and they will save you. That would have been a sin because it's putting God to foolish tests.

I think you put it nicely. Tess is like the devil and Davis & Chloe both have elements of Judas. Davis in that he meant to turn on Clark even though he's hiding it now & Chloe because she's his friend & has been in his stable for a while.

[moviefan2k4]

Umm... denies... The creators of Superman were Jewish! He has always been a savior but not in the spiritual sense...Judging from the comparisons to both Jesus and Moses in the original comics (which were always there to begin with), I doubt that Siegel & Shuster were Jews in the tired "we reject Christ because we don't like His message" sense. I may be wrong, but I don't think it would surprise me if they were Messianic Jews (who accept Jesus as the Son of God).

----- Added 9 Minutes later -----


The part about Jesus coming back to face Judas...WHAT???:confused: They took big creative license there.Yes, they did; I'm actually relieved that so many others noticed it.


Personally, I'd rather they leave out Biblical references entirely if they can't get it right.Agreed, although it'd be kinda difficult to do that now, when such things have been surfacing in the series, off and on, over the last 8 years.


To date, they've recreated the Samson & Delilah story...Y'know, I'd forgotten about that one. If I recall correctly, Lex reached the conclusion many unfortunately do...that Samson's hair was the source of his strength. It wasn't; his promise to God was that source, and by trusting Delilah more than God, he allowed himself to be stripped of his power. They even gouged out his eyes (ouch!).

Fortunately, his last recorded words consisted of a prayer to God for redemption, asking for one last moment of strength...and also that his victory over the Philistines would end his own life.

[Lilah]

To be honest, as a religion major,
I've studied the effects of religion and no matter what you do you can't get away from religion, it is a major part of our world, its been ingrained within our society whether we like it or not, and whether we admit it or not.
It may have been a bit heavy handed in the episode for some,
but I really enjoyed the reference and thought it served as a nice little tease at Clark's impending death in Doomsday . And it also made me think deeper about that point, which was a nice little educational/theoretical interlude during the commercial break. Yes. I actually did do that...

I too got that about his death and I love how they compared it to Christ's ressurection.

(And to be fair, Superman has been compared to Jesus ever since his creation. And superheroes themselves are nothing more than modern retakes on greek gods and goddesses.:D I'm thinking of writing my thesis on this very idea. It's going to be SWEET.:D I am SUCH a nerd. )

I actually did a preaching to my youth group about superheroes and their godlike traits using Superman as a model of Jesus of course... its an interesting subject. So you should definitely do it!


Ahh yes, but the Jews, are still waiting for their "Messiah" so therefore, Superman could have very well have had traits that would be similar to Jesus, just because "Messiah-ish" traits tend to be similar. That is if Seigel and Schuster wrote him to be like a kind of "Messiah." (Note, I'm not saying one religion is right or wrong, or one theory here is right or wrong, I just like discussing things on a theoretical level, so I hope that I haven't offended anyone :) )

And when Siegel and Shuster created Superman it was right at the start of the Holocaust and Hitler's rise into power. So it was their escape and sort of their wish for a savior to come and save the Jews from the Nazis. The first cover is actually Superman lifting a car with soldiers running for cover. The character of Superman has evolved over the years, obviously to go with times, but it doesn't change what those two boys were thinking when they created him. And to everyone savior means something different, regardless of what religion one may follow. Some may follow Christ, others Buddah, Mohammad, Moses, some are still waiting. But writers and producers and directors of past films and television shows and comics have come out and said that Superman was modeled after Jesus and that they subtly put biblical references in their work to show that. For example... did you know that "Clark" means "clergyman, pastor" while "Kent" is a form of the Hebrew word "Kana" or "KNA". In its K-N-T form the word appears in the bible meaning "I have a son." And "Kana" is also the Greek word for "Krista" which in English is "Christ". The new testament was written in Greek originally. So "Clark Kent" means "Cleric Christ". "Kal-El" is "All God" in Hebrew. That is just one reference of how much Superman is supposed to be a model of Christ. Don't even get me started on Lois Lane's character. From her being dipicted after Mary Magdeline to what "Lois Lane" means. "Lois" is "more desirable" while "Lane" means "narrow path" so together they mean "more desirable narrow path" which is a direct summarization of the bible verse "small is the gate, and narrow is the road that leads to life and only few find it." There's a lot more about Zod, Jor-El, The Kents, and even Doomsday. I like research. And when I like a topic I become really passionate and find out as much as I can.

*Some responses are in the quote with bold.

[Cyclonekat]

And when Siegel and Shuster created Superman it was right at the start of the Holocaust and Hitler's rise into power. So it was their escape and sort of their wish for a savior to come and save the Jews from the Nazis. The first cover is actually Superman lifting a car with soldiers running for cover. The character of Superman has evolved over the years, obviously to go with times, but it doesn't change what those two boys were thinking when they created him. And to everyone savior means something different, regardless of what religion one may follow. Some may follow Christ, others Buddah, Mohammad, Moses, some are still waiting. But writers and producers and directors of past films and television shows and comics have come out and said that Superman was modeled after Jesus and that they subtly put biblical references in their work to show that. For example... did you know that "Clark" means "clergyman, pastor" while "Kent" is a form of the Hebrew word "Kana" or "KNA".
In its K-N-T form the word appears in the bible meaning "I have a son." And "Kana" is also the Greek word for "Krista" which in English is "Christ". The new testament was written in Greek originally. So "Clark Kent" means "Cleric Christ". "Kal-El" is "All God" in Hebrew. That is just one reference of how much Superman is supposed to be a model of Christ. Don't even get me started on Lois Lane's character. From her being dipicted after Mary Magdeline to what "Lois Lane" means. "Lois" is "more desirable" while "Lane" means "narrow path" so together they mean "more desirable narrow path" which is a direct summarization of the bible verse "small is the gate, and narrow is the road that leads to life and only few find it." There's a lot more about Zod, Jor-El, The Kents, and even Doomsday. I like research. And when I like a topic I become really passionate and find out as much as I can.

*Some responses are in the quote with bold.

I actually did know this stuff!:D I've got a book on Superheroes and religion, it's got a whole section on Superman. :D Great stuff!:D

[Lilah]

Cool! You should look into The Gospel accroding to the World's Greatest Superhero and Why the World Needs a Superhero. Both are really great and helped me a lot with my research.

[redkryptoniteisthebest]

Chloe is starting to fall into Davis' trap, (who I think represented the devil in this episode) which is not good, because she is on Clark's side, but is falling for the temptation.

Did anyone else catch anything?

["Lois I Never Lie"]

Here's the what I caught:

1. Chloe is starting to fall into Davis' trap, (who I think represented the devil in this episode) which is not good, because she is on Clark's side, but is falling for the temptation.

Did anyone else catch anything?

Leave religion out of it would you, it has no place on these boards

[Hopefulsuicide]

Actually, it does... and it has a place especially within the discussion of this episode...

["Lois I Never Lie"]

Actually, it does... and it has a place especially within the discussion of this episode...

Whatever............

[Timester]

Whatever............

It was the episode that brought religious symbolisms to the talking, so it's open for debate.

[Hopefulsuicide]

Whatever............


I don't know what your problem with religion is, but please leave your personal preferences out of it. Discrimination has no place on these boards.

I am not a christian myself. But Superman has always had religious analogies floating around him. And since Tess was actually talking about Judas, i think it's safe to say that discussion of Christianity in the context of this episode is perfectly valid.

[redkryptoniteisthebest]

I'm not seeing the problem with it here, either. But, it was really obvious to me (the symbolism). I really enjoyed it.

[ywm]

relax and go watch Zeitgeist :)

[redkryptoniteisthebest]

I also flinched when Tess said that without Judas, Jesus would have never died and risen again. It goes against what the Bible says, and it did bug me.

[alienkinfolk]

Personally, I think Chloe is more Judas than Davis. But out of everyone, Lex is... everyone remember "I loved you like a brother..."? I love it when they do biblical references and make Superman to be a model of Christ, because he was written that way intentionally.

I think you're on to something with Chloe being more like Judas than Davis....

[redkryptoniteisthebest]

I though the exact same thing. It sadly looks like Chloe will be the Judas of Smallville.

[Jedimaster_TTBaby]

I beginning to think that smallville should stop with the biblical stuff because they aren't doing it right. It's almost as is they are twisting it around to fit a particular situation in the show and the really annoys me. I agree with the person who said:

"Personally, I'd rather they leave out Biblical references entirely if they can't get it right."

[Exedore]

Let's see what kind of Biblical references we can make out of SV:

Zod - Lucifer (because Donner said so)

Brainiac - the Beast from the Sea (the one with multiple heads)

Doomsday - the Beast from the earth (with the appearance of a lamb or in SV, a human) who works on behalf of the first Beast (Brainiac) :D

Lex - the False Prophet

Darkseid - the Antichrist (why? I dunno, didn't want to make ol' purple boy feel left out and he may eventually show up)

Lana - Judas (it's destiny :D and this would make up for her awful storyline)

Tess - Whore of Babylon (the closest female figure of evil in the Apocalypse scenario I could think of, off the top of my head)

Before someone takes this too seriously, yes I know none of this is 100% true to Christian beliefs. But then SV has a knack for twisting things around so this is in the same vein of absurdity. :D

[jsith99]

If this was a show that was actualy about a biblical character like Jesus or Judas I would be upset
But only one person (who's sanity is in question) is making these statements about Clark I have no problem.
Since a lot of real people read the bible and take out only what they want to belive. I dont find Tess to be any different. Lets face it Tess has lied and murdered she's not living a holy lifestyle
That said the original poster poster has let it be known that he is a devout Christian so I can understand him wanting to jump thru the screen saying THATS NOT HOW IT HAPPEND. I feel the same way when dialog in shows contradicts stuff i believe in

[moviefan2k4]

Lets face it, Tess has lied and murdered; she's not living a holy lifestyle.In the strictest sense, no one is completely. After all, two thirds of the New Testament was transcribed by a reformed murderer (Paul the Apostle), who God used as one of His strongest voices in the first century. God doesn't always need "good" people to accomplish righteous ends.

[jsith99]

In the strictest sense, no one is completely. After all, two thirds of the New Testament was transcribed by a reformed murderer (Paul the Apostle), who God used as one of His strongest voices in the first century. God doesn't always need "good" people to accomplish righteous ends.

I agree with what your saying here. I was just saying that Tess and the Luthers when they were on the show all seemed like the kind of people that would take scripture and bend it to fit thier own needs and beliefs. thats just my opinion of them.

[Eeyore840]

The Biblical references were incorrect, and if the writers want to bring religion/religious symbolism into the story, they need to get the facts straight, or don't include religion at all. I'm glad so many people noticed, and I'm especially glad that so many are commenting on the error.

[moviefan2k4]

...the Luthors... seemed like the kind of people that would take Scripture and bend it to fit thier own needs and beliefs.Absolutely. Lionel & Lex got into many discussions about the Bible over the first seven years of the series. One of my favorites was in Season 3, when Lex confronted his father at LuthorCorp. "Abraham threw Isaac on the pyre to prove his faith to God...what was your excuse?"

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----


The Biblical references were incorrect, and if the writers want to bring religion/religious symbolism into the story, they need to get the facts straight, or don't include religion at all.Agreed, although if they wanted to do the latter it'd be a formidable challenge, since so much of the series has contained it up to this point.

[tushsterz]

when i was watching eternal something about the analogies regarding jesus and judas caught my attention. at one part tess says something about jesus reaching his true potential because judas betrayed him, had that not happened we dont know how the story of jesus would have gone. at first i figured 'judas' was lex or something but at the end of the ep i realized what if the betrayal that clark would have to face is chloe betraying him by choosing davis? it kind of makes sense because it would be an ultimate betrayal. not that i think chloe would ever choose anyone over clark, but here she did in order to save clark...ok now im rambling but does anyone else agree?


anyways...love tom welling...and like almost everyone on the show. they sure do know how to pic gorgeous ppl.:rolleyes:

[xrayvision]

I also flinched when Tess said that without Judas, Jesus would have never died and risen again. It goes against what the Bible says, and it did bug me.

I know, I didn't like it either. I think they should have shown Clark give her a lot more resistance than he did.

I do think it was somewhat Lex-like of her. Lex is different though. Lex at the end of Talisman twisted things so that he (Sageeth) was the hero & turned Clark (Naman) into an evil tyrant. Tess on the other hand was saying that without Judas, Jesus wouldn't have been who he was (something I completely disagree with). So to Tess, the villian is needed for the hero to triumph. I don't agree with that. Superman for years had been saving people from disasters and crime. He was a hero in the comics before there ever was a Lex Luthor. It's obvious that TPTB threw those lines in to add significance to the fact that their Clark will be fighting Doomsday before he becomes Superman.

Taking the route they are seems like they're making all his pre-Doomsday heroics pale in comparison to his post-Doomsday heroics. I'm all for his progression, but I resent Tess line about him not becoming a true hero until beating Doomsday.

[Smallville55]

u guys didn't hear wut she said.....she said judas betrayed jesus so he could face his biggest challenge. she didn't say his biggest challenge was judas...she said his biggest challence was to save humanity.

[Lea]

In this episode (as with many in the show's history), chracters made some very frequent references to the New Testament, specifically the events surrounding Judas Iscariot at the time of Jesus' trial.

However, one thing made me flinch: Tess saying that Jesus would've never risen from the grave if Judas hadn't betrayed Him. She also said that Jesus came back to face Judas. These are both contradictory to Scripture, as the reason for the Resurrection was to break Satan's hold on humanity, and in turn conquer death itself, not Judas alone. Also, its very clear that Jesus would've risen, no matter who would've betrayed him. It wasn't part of Jesus' plan, but rather of God the Father's. Judas had a choice, and he made it. By saying that it was necessary for Judas to sin so Christ could live again, that seems like a huge misinterpretation of Christianity. What are your thoughts?

Thank you. You said it so much better than I could have, since I'm not a native speaker.
Yes, I agree. That bothered me quite a bit. I'm not offended by the whole allusion to Christianity, but I think that should be done with some taste, and more than anything with some basic knowledge of the matter, so that they at least get the facts right.

[Tompouce]

[quote=borednow;4695503]Really I'm just sick of the heavy handed religious comparisons...
But I am really sick of hearing this Superman=Jesus theory the writers have going.
quote]
They have to stop it. It is really inappropriate. As I said in another topic, I don't watch this show for the religious analogies. In each episode now, we see some religions signs (Davis in a church, Davis with his cross, Clark who is supposed to be like Jesus, ...). Enough !

[Skaterpen357]

I don't mean to offend anyone (and I myself am Christian), so this is more an honest question than a challenge: how is Tess' comment about Judas so...blasphemous?

I don't know everything about every Christian denomination, perhaps most of which are represented here, but I'm pretty sure most, if not all, of them believe Jesus came to Earth so he could die for our sins and rise to defeat death. Therefore, one can conclude that Jesus' death was necessary.

That being said, Judas was the vehicle of Jesus' "destiny," if you will. What Judas did was evil, and Judas certainly didn't betray Jesus for noble reasons. That was the devil's influence, definitely. But God, being omniscient, knew the devil would tempt Judas, and thus implemented this temptation into His plan for Jesus' death and resurrection. In other words, Judas was not the hero of the story, but God ended up using his evil actions to achieve good.

As for the "if Judas hadn't betrayed Jesus, someone else would have" argument, well, no one else did. If they did, Tess would've compared Davis to that "someone else" and not to Judas. The fact is, Judas did betray Jesus, and it was because of Judas' betrayal that Jesus was able to fulfill his "destiny." So perhaps Tess merely chose bad wording--Judas isn't the hero, and he wasn't noble in his deeds, but he is necessary.

But back to Superman...xrayvision makes a good point; in the comics/all other media, Superman was Superman long before he died. That he needs to kill and be killed by Doomsday to fulfill his destiny is definitely new. But...I don't really care what the producers may say; Smallville definitely looks like an Elseworlds story. It may end up looking very familiar to the "classic" story, so as not to confuse casual viewers, but what with Brainiac, Zod, Lex Luthor, the Justice League, Lois Lane, Toyman, Doomsday, etc. already appearing, it's nearly undeniable that Smallville has made the conscious choice to break from its source material.

Maybe one of the core aspects of this Elseworlds universe is that Doomsday was Clark's final major pre-Superman test, and that this Doomsday isn't quite as powerful as the comic Doomsday (yet), perhaps because he's so young (twenty-something), as opposed to the cenuries-old Doomsday from the source material. In that case, Tess would be right about Clark having to fight Doomsday to fulfill his destiny--he may be heroic now, but he hasn't accepted his Kryptonian destiny, I suppose. Under that light, I'm a bit more okay with Tess' comment about Clark having to fight Doomsday.

[moviefan2k4]

As for the "if Judas hadn't betrayed Jesus, someone else would have" argument, well, no one else did. If they did, Tess would've compared Davis to that "someone else" and not to Judas. The fact is, Judas did betray Jesus, and it was because of Judas' betrayal that Jesus was able to fulfill his "destiny." So perhaps Tess merely chose bad wording--Judas isn't the hero, and he wasn't noble in his deeds, but he is necessary.The point I believe you're missing is that in the dialogue of this episode, Tess made Judas out to be the sole catalyst for the crucifixion and resurrection, by insinuating that Jesus would've never been crucified otherwise. This goes completely against Scripture, which makes it very clear that Christ's sacrifice was fated to happen, no matter who betrayed him. Ultimately, Jesus would've forgiven Judas, had he lived and repented before Him. But the devil took advantage of his guilt and shame, leading to Judas' suicide.

[Skaterpen357]

They have to stop it. It is really inappropriate. As I said in another topic, I don't watch this show for the religious analogies. In each episode now, we see some religions signs (Davis in a church, Davis with his cross, Clark who is supposed to be like Jesus, ...). Enough !
If religion isn't your cup of tea, no one will (or should) fault you, but you have to take this kind of thing with a grain of salt. Many comic book fans absolutely hated all the soap opera drama throughout the sixth and seventh seasons (well, especially those, but not just those), but that's just how the show is. As has been stated many times, Superman has always been compared to Jesus, or at least to a Messiah, ever since his creation. Apart from that, superheroes in general (especially DC heroes, IMO,) have a kind of mythic quality that really do set them up for religious comparison.

The very first episode of this series featured a crucifiction of sorts; I really don't think further comparisons eight seasons in should come as a surprise.

----- Added 10 Minutes later -----


The point I believe you're missing is that in the dialogue of this episode, Tess made Judas out to be the sole catalyst for the crucifixion and resurrection, by insinuating that Jesus would've never been crucified otherwise. This goes completely against Scripture, which makes it very clear that Christ's sacrifice was fated to happen, no matter who betrayed him. Ultimately, Jesus would've forgiven Judas, had he lived and repented before Him. But the devil took advantage of his guilt and shame, leading to Judas' suicide. Well yes, I completely agree, and I do think Tess worded her comparison incorrectly (or maybe, as was suggested, she was twisting Scripture to suit her needs), but I do still think that if someone else had betrayed Jesus, then Tess would've just compared Davis to that someone else. Does this mean someone will kill Clark, even if it's not Doomsday? Probably not; comparisons will only take you so far, which is why I think it didn't translate very well. But if you believe the devil was controlling Judas' actions, you can probably say Judas was just as fated to betray Jesus as Jesus was fated to die.

And just for the record, I do disagree with the idea that Judas was the sole catalyst. I just think he was a necessary catylist.

[moviefan2k4]

Judas could've made the choice not to betray Christ, but he was already a thief, and Satan used that as a "doorway" to control him. Scripture even warns that "anger gives a mighty foothold to the devil".

[jobookjunkie]

Well when I first watched that scene I physically flinched. I'm a Christian and a minister's daughter AND I'm from Northern Ireland, so the whole religion thing is ingrained into my DNA, to be honest. As a massive Superman fan, I have always interested in the different religious interpretations of the character and the symbolism that surrounds him, for example in Superman Returns, and until now I've never been that bothered by it. However, the way Tess talked about Judas and Jesus really grated on me, for two reasons - the story she was telling was NOT the one found in the Bible, and because her whole tone throughout implied she was verging on fanaticism. It wasn't Judas' actions that were the catalyst for Jesus' mission meeting its earthly end at the crucifixion. Rather Judas was used as a means to that end. It bothers me that Tess seems to be turning into some sort of zealot a la the Veritas society. IMO this kind of blatant comparison with a badly told story has no place in a show that has hitherto shunned religion...I do recall a huge discussion after 'Blue' aired about what Lara meant when she said the Kents were at church, since they haven't been to it since or at least on the show.

Just my two pence!

[kryptonhero25]

I think Tess was trying to say that if Judas didn't betray Jesus, then he would not have died and therefore would not have rose from the dead. But I agree, her view is very skewed

[Skaterpen357]

Judas could've made the choice not to betray Christ, but he was already a thief, and Satan used that as a "doorway" to control him. Scripture even warns that "anger gives a mighty foothold to the devil".
Well yeah, but the Bible also implies Jesus could have decided not to die. Blasphemous as it sounds at first, the point of the temptation in the desert, and to Jesus sweating blood while praying to his Father, and his decision to submit himself to the Father's will, show Jesus' own autonomy, and the latter shows that Jesus made the conscious choice to accept Judas' betrayal.

I'm not one to believe in predestination, and even though Jesus, being God, is perfect, I think it's significant that Jesus chose to accept his fate.

[Tompouce]

If religion isn't your cup of tea, no one will (or should) fault you, but you have to take this kind of thing with a grain of salt. Many comic book fans absolutely hated all the soap opera drama throughout the sixth and seventh seasons (well, especially those, but not just those), but that's just how the show is. As has been stated many times, Superman has always been compared to Jesus, or at least to a Messiah, ever since his creation. Apart from that, superheroes in general (especially DC heroes, IMO,) have a kind of mythic quality that really do set them up for religious comparison.
Added 10 Minutes later -----

And just for the record, I do disagree with the idea that Judas was the sole catalyst. I just think he was a necessary catylist.
I know you are right, I didn't mean to offend someone. I just say Superman of course can be seen as a Messiah but in the last episodes, to me, it is too much. We don't need this. As I said in another topic, Superman is a creation, we all see him as we want. I need to think of him as my imagination is. To me, he is the symbol of Hope, of a better world,...I don't want and need to have a kind of religious analogies. I think this is very personal, each person needs to have his own "faith" in Superman. That is why it irritates me so much. Mythic is the perfect adjective as it is about imagination, your own vision, religious analogies force you to think as the writers want you to. And I don't like it. I hope you will understand what I mean, I am not sure I am very clear:D;)

[Skaterpen357]

I know you are right, I didn't mean to offend someone. I just say Superman of course can be seen as a Messiah but in the last episodes, to me, it is too much. We don't need this. As I said in another topic, Superman is a creation, we all see him as we want. I need to think of him as my imagination is. To me, he is the symbol of Hope, of a better world,...I don't want and need to have a kind of religious analogies. I think this is very personal, each person needs to have his own "faith" in Superman. That is why it irritates me so much. Mythic is the perfect adjective as it is about imagination, your own vision, religious analogies force you to think as the writers want you to. And I don't like it. I hope you will understand what I mean, I am not sure I am very clear:D;)
Yeah, I see what you mean, and yeah, no offense taken. Sorry; there are just a lot of people who dump on religion for the sake of dumping on religion, and I guess I jumped to the wrong conclusions. :\

Don't get me wrong; I do see your point. Superman is a gift to the world, not just to the Judeo-Christian population, and even some Judeo-Christians may not want to compare Superman to Jesus. Like it or leave it, though, it's kinda just one of the more subtle aspects to Superman's myth.

I do agree that the amount of religious references they're putting in the last few episodes is far more than they used to put in, but I guess that's to be expected with an apocolyptic villain like Doomsday. Personally, I thought Davis' going to confession was somewhat more epic than Tess' monologue, but that's just me.

[Meteror Freak]

"However, one thing made me flinch: Tess saying that Jesus would've never risen from the grave if Judas hadn't betrayed Him. "

^ I don't think she meant that Jesus needed Judas to rise from the grave, she meant that he could not have risen from the grave if he had not first been murdered thanks to Judas.

[jsith99]

The thing I dont get is people getting upset that the show or PTB are trying to force a comparison with Clark and Jesus on the veiwers. They just wrote Tess as a fanatic does not mean that this is how the writters veiw Clark.
After they wrote Tess as being an abused child I think they are trying to say she's a troubled person. and because of this she is projecting her want for a personal savior onto Clark
Since people like this exist in real life I have no problem with how thi is being written

[Exedore]

Maybe they will go for the Gospel of Judas way (regardless of how valid/authentic/correct this text is) and have the Judas character "betray" Clark on direct orders from Clark himself. Sounds somewhat stupid but hey what else is new? :rolleyes:

[Skaterpen357]

The thing I dont get is people getting upset that the show or PTB are trying to force a comparison with Clark and Jesus on the veiwers. They just wrote Tess as a fanatic does not mean that this is how the writters veiw Clark.
After they wrote Tess as being an abused child I think they are trying to say she's a troubled person. and because of this she is projecting her want for a personal savior onto Clark
Since people like this exist in real life I have no problem with how thi is being written
Wow, I never even thought about that. I just kind of shoved Tess' confession in "Turbulence" into the "deep characterization via troubled past" area, but that connection makes her look...obsessed. Like Edward Teague obsessed. Kind of weird that she was (apparently) based off Mercy Graves...

[moviefan2k4]

I'm not one to believe in predestination, and even though Jesus, being God, is perfect, I think it's significant that Jesus chose to accept his fate.What's really amazing is that He did it because of love. Jesus was fully aware of God the Father's unconditional and eternal love for Him, and He also knew that God also loves each and every person ever born the exact same way. If Jesus had refused, every single person past, present, and future would be damned to hell for eternity, separated from God by their sins. In the natural, Jesus was more afraid than any of us will ever be. He didn't want to die, and He asked God three times to provide an alternative if possible. But when the time came, Jesus knew that He alone was capable of paying our price, and because of His love for us, He went through with it. That is truly the greatest story ever told...and what makes it better is its true.

----- Added 2 Minutes later -----


Kind of weird that she was (apparently) based off Mercy Graves...She was also based on Eve Tessmacher, from the 1978 film.

[ram711]

I believe Tess is using the story of Christ and Judas to fit her own beliefs. Yes, if Judas hadn't of betrayed Jesus, he wouldn't have been crucified, but there's a problem with this in Smallville. Davis is not in Clark's circle of friends, which means he cannot be Judas. Even further, I believe that Clark represents Christ and Davis represents Satan, and the Judas that will betray Clark is none other than Chloe, which will inevitably lead to Clark's death and his eventual resurrection.

[xrayvision]

I believe Tess is using the story of Christ and Judas to fit her own beliefs. Yes, if Judas hadn't of betrayed Jesus, he wouldn't have been crucified, but there's a problem with this in Smallville. Davis is not in Clark's circle of friends, which means he cannot be Judas. Even further, I believe that Clark represents Christ and Davis represents Satan, and the Judas that will betray Clark is none other than Chloe, which will inevitably lead to Clark's death and his eventual resurrection.

Like vikingjedi said, Tess is like the devil with trying to distort scripture (and the Kawatche legend) to get Clark to do what she wants.

[Atomic girl]

Smallville has been using Biblical references for a long time. They are almost always said by the villainy person so I can't take what they say with any type of authority. No character on SV claims a religion, or practices one, so I wouldn't take any quote from any "Religious" book seriously whether it is the Bible, writings of Confucius, Buddhist works, the Quran, etc. When Tess interpreted the Judas story, I wasn't expecting anything, really.

I remember years ago, my daughter was watching and Lex gave his interpretation of a Bible Story, and she looked at me and said, "that was totally wrong" and Lex was.

[kyl-el]

Everyone keeps tying Davis with Judas here because that is how Tess described it, but I think that something more accurate and metaphorical could happen with this storyline. What I mean by that is this. Tess is Judas, not Davis. She knows who Clark is, as Judas knew who Christ was, and she has the power to betray Clark with the Orb. Davis/Doomsday is more comparable to Satan when you think about it because if he ends up killing Clark it is a reflection of Christ suffering death/Satan/hell on the cross. And when Clark comes back from the grave it will follow the same story as Christ again with his resurrection.

In the end it might be Tess' misinterpretation of what the scriptures actually say that lead to her end. If she doesn't understand that she is Judas in this story she will meet the same end as he.

[vikingjedi]

Like vikingjedi said, Tess is like the devil with trying to distort scripture (and the Kawatche legend) to get Clark to do what she wants.

Yep, Tess is Judas but she's also twisting scriptures like the devil to get Clark to fight Doomsday. Doomsday has to represent the devil because he's the destroyer.

I honestly don't see Chloe as being evil here. She's trying to protect Clark because she's in love with him.

This is JMO but I still think Chloe is working with Oliver and the Justice League to find a way to stop Doomsday and they want to kill him. Thats why they haven't told Clark yet.

[xrayvision]

I don't think Chloe is in love with Clark anymore. I really do think she's in love with Davis.

[Tompouce]

Smallville has been using Biblical references for a long time. They are almost always said by the villainy person so I can't take what they say with any type of authority. No character on SV claims a religion, or practices one, so I wouldn't take any quote from any "Religious" book seriously whether it is the Bible, writings of Confucius, Buddhist works, the Quran, etc. When Tess interpreted the Judas story, I wasn't expecting anything, really.

I remember years ago, my daughter was watching and Lex gave his interpretation of a Bible Story, and she looked at me and said, "that was totally wrong" and Lex was.
Yes, exactly ! That is why I am so surprised by the last episodes. They used Biblical references but it was not that much. And Lex was always coming with analogies about historical people too (like Napoléon, Julius Caesar lool, it made me laugh each time:lol:)

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----


Yeah, I see what you mean, and yeah, no offense taken. Sorry; there are just a lot of people who dump on religion for the sake of dumping on religion, and I guess I jumped to the wrong conclusions. :\

Don't get me wrong; I do see your point. Superman is a gift to the world, not just to the Judeo-Christian population, and even some Judeo-Christians may not want to compare Superman to Jesus. Like it or leave it, though, it's kinda just one of the more subtle aspects to Superman's myth.

I do agree that the amount of religious references they're putting in the last few episodes is far more than they used to put in, but I guess that's to be expected with an apocolyptic villain like Doomsday. Personally, I thought Davis' going to confession was somewhat more epic than Tess' monologue, but that's just me.
I agree with you, the Davis's scene in the church was epic. But to me, it was enough. And then as I said, you have Tess' monologue, bouhhhh. After all that, it spoiled the rest and to see Davis kissing his cross again and again... But I think we understand each other now that is what matters the most:)

[ClarkyBoy14]

In the natural, Jesus was more afraid than any of us will ever be. He didn't want to die, and He asked God three times to provide an alternative if possible.

I could be wrong, but I thought that Jesus was more afraid of being separated from God from taking on the sin of the world (My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?) than the pain He would endure.

----- Added 4 Minutes later -----


So to Tess, the villian is needed for the hero to triumph. I don't agree with that. Superman for years had been saving people from disasters and crime. He was a hero in the comics before there ever was a Lex Luthor.

Perhaps it's like in the Bible? Jesus performed many miracles during His earthly ministry, bringing people back to life and healing them from their sicknesses, but it was nothing compared to what He did on the cross--saving the world from hell.

Like I said in a different thread, I don't care for the direct comparison of Clark to Jesus, but it's always been that way and it seems like that's the way the writers are going right now.

----- Added 5 Minutes later -----


No character on SV claims a religion, or practices one,

Davis is Catholic, isn't he?

[moviefan2k4]

I could be wrong, but I thought that Jesus was more afraid of being separated from God from taking on the sin of the world (My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?) than the pain He would endure.Good point. I was actually referring to the whole experience itself, on every level. At least, that was my intent. Jesus knew what would happen to Him, and He was so afraid that his tears actually turned to blood in Gethsemane. That's serious stuff, and accounting for both the physical and spiritual aspects...I often shudder to think about the enormity of His sacrifice. The only thing worse I can think of is the sadness He must feel, knowing that even after all He went through, there's still people in the world who'd rather be separated from Him than admit they need Him. :(

[ClarkyBoy14]

Good point. I was actually referring to the whole experience itself, on every level. At least, that was my intent. Jesus knew what would happen to Him, and He was so afraid that his tears actually turned to blood in Gethsemane. That's serious stuff, and accounting for both the physical and spiritual aspects...I often shudder to think about the enormity of His sacrifice. The only thing worse I can think of is the sadness He must feel, knowing that even after all He went through, there's still people in the world who'd rather be separated from Him than admit they need Him. :(

That's true. :(

[vikingjedi]

I don't think Chloe is in love with Clark anymore. I really do think she's in love with Davis.

I think Chloe loves Clark so much she will do everything in her power to protect him. Thats why she killed that meteor freak near the beginning of the season. He knew Clark's secret and was going to expose him and she wasn't going to let that happen.

At the end of Eternal, Davis is saying "I won't hurt Clark if you stay with me". Because Chloe loves Clark she locks the door to protect him since in her mind it's the only way to keep him from dying.

When you're in love with somebody you're willing to do almost anything to protect them.

["Lois I Never Lie"]

I think Chloe loves Clark so much she will do everything in her power to protect him. Thats why she killed that meteor freak near the beginning of the season. He knew Clark's secret and was going to expose him and she wasn't going to let that happen.

At the end of Eternal, Davis is saying "I won't hurt Clark if you stay with me". Because Chloe loves Clark she locks the door to protect him since in her mind it's the only way to keep him from dying.

When you're in love with somebody you're willing to do almost anything to protect them.

Very well put, couldnt have said it better myself

[Davis Bloome]

I think Chloe loves Clark so much she will do everything in her power to protect him. Thats why she killed that meteor freak near the beginning of the season. He knew Clark's secret and was going to expose him and she wasn't going to let that happen.

At the end of Eternal, Davis is saying "I won't hurt Clark if you stay with me". Because Chloe loves Clark she locks the door to protect him since in her mind it's the only way to keep him from dying.

When you're in love with somebody you're willing to do almost anything to protect them.
Care and love are two different things. And I think she cares for Clark the most, but it's not love, not anymore. Clark will likely always have a special place inside her heart, but the time she loved him is over. It was time for her to move on and seeing that she has been with Jimmy, then moved onto Davis I do think she's passed Clark. I still think because they're the closest of friends you can get she will protect him at all cost. He'll always be a priority to her. But love, I doubt it very much.

[celita]

As a preacher I was thrilled with it. She proclaimed Jesus as the Savior of mankind. She pointed out that Judas played an important role and the theology goes no deeper than that but how many secular TV shows nowadays declare Jesus death and resurrection as being foundational to saving mankind? This comes a week before Good Friday as well so I was thrilled with it.


But I would like to say something, Clark is a savior, that's true, but he isn't a God. He is like Tarzan living with the monkeys, being able of doing thinks monkeys are not able of doing doesn't make Tarzan a God. If Clark were a God then Kara, Zod, Jor El and every other kryptonian would be it as well due to their powers. So, Clark is not a God nor ever will, he is an alien living among humans. He is symbol of hope, a hero and all those things but not a God. Even Jor El said it.

I think that the show itself implies that believing that Clark is a God leads to do "whatever It's needed" for him, which make people like Chloe or the Veritas group become killers. Lex wanted to protect mankind as well and he is a bad person, he used to think that he was doing the right thing but he was wrong. It's the way you act which make you a hero and an savior, not the goal you believe in.

Enjoy next week by the way!

[Atomic girl]

Davis is Catholic, isn't he?I thought that was to assuage his guilt, not because he was a practicing Catholic. I could be wrong. A few of the characters have been seen in church for various reasons, but I never got the impression they had any reverence for the church or what it stands for.

[Eeyore840]

I thought that was to assuage his guilt, not because he was a practicing Catholic. I could be wrong. A few of the characters have been seen in church for various reasons, but I never got the impression they had any reverence for the church or what it stands for.


I don't know...he went to confession, after all, and seemed pretty comfortable with the whole process. Besides the Orthodox Christian and Catholic demoninations, I don't think many other Christian faiths practice confession in such a formal way. I could be wrong, though, and if I am, someone please enlighten me. But I've also had the impression that Davis is a Catholic.

[Davis Bloome]

I think he's probably religious. I mean you can't just think you're forgiven just because you're asking God for forgiveness while you don't even believe in Him. It wouldn't work on your conscious. You wouldn't feel better or worse. It wouldn't work on his guilt if he wasn't religious. But if he is religious and it's very likely as children are often raised catholic in orphanages, he will probably feel more guilty about his actions cause he then should know for sure that what he is doing is wrong.

[Skaterpen357]

I agree with what's been said about Davis; it's my understanding that non-Catholics don't have Reconciliation (confession) as a sacrament (though I could be wrong), and Davis did seem familiar with the practice. If he wasn't Catholic, the writers could just as easily show Davis on his knees in a monologue-prayer, so I think it makes sense to say Davis is Catholic.

[Atomic girl]

You'd be surprised by what straws will be grasped by those with the kind of guilt that Davis has been experiencing. I've seen some crazy things done by people with guilty consciences.

[moviefan2k4]

]Clark...is a symbol of hope, a hero, and all those things, but not a God. Even Jor El said it.If memory serves, that exchange took place in Season 5, when Clark wanted to reverse Lana's death in that traffic accident. Jor-El warned him, "Your powers on Earth may seem extraordinary, Kal-El...but we are not gods."


You'd be surprised by what straws will be grasped by those with the kind of guilt that Davis has been experiencing. I've seen some crazy things done by people with guilty consciences.That is one of the biggest reasons why God has forbidden certain things in life, because He knows very well how sin infects and weakens people. He doesn't want his children to do anything that will eventually destroy them, which is (among other reasons) why He gave us the Commandments in the first place.

[redkryptoniteisthebest]

Yep. God gave us His Commandments for a reason. Like you said, He doesn't want us to do something that can destroy us, nor does He want us to do whatever we want, because we shouldn't.

He loves us that much to give us rules on how to be blessed in life. Sadly, a lot of people don't follow those rules.

[LoD]

I think that the show itself implies that believing that Clark is a God leads to do "whatever It's needed" for him, which make people like Chloe or the Veritas group become killers.

Throw Tess into that group and ITA. The funny thing is, while all these people are willing to kill for Clark, none of them shows any faith in his abilities to actually perform his duties as the anointed "savior" of the world.

[moviefan2k4]

It's actually rather weird that all 4 men who truly believed in Clark's potential died: Lionel, Jonathan, Virgil Swann, and Edward Teague.

[LoD]

Good point but what about adding Martha, Kara and John Jones to that list as well?

[moviefan2k4]

They're not dead.

[sithius]

I really think it's silly. Superman is generally never portrayed in analogy to Jesus, so I don't know what someone meant earlier when they said that is the case in regard to comics, movies etc. Utter poppycock.

Tell me what Superman has in common with Jesus? Superman and Jesus both saved the world? Well yes, but in the comics, Green Latern saves the world at some points too. Does that make him equivalent to Jesus? :rolleyes:

Jesus = Son of God (not that I'm Christian, but bare with me).
Superman = Super powered alien.

So... how exactly is Superman part of the trinity? Since when did he become God?

The whole thing is ridiculous, and I'm tired of Smallville constantly shoving it down our throats. Superman =/= God.... there is no significant similarity to be drawn.

[moviefan2k4]

Well, here's just a few of the more common allusions to Christianity that have been included in the mythology over the years...

1) "Kal -El" is Hebrew for "one God", since the "El" suffix is a shortened form of "Elohim", one of the names for God in the Bible.

2) Clark's adoptive parents were both given Biblical names, Jonathan and Martha (referring to St. John the Apostle, and Martha the sister of Mary & Lazarus).

3) Jor-El sending his son to Earth was intended as a two-fold reference. The forst is obviously to God the Father, who sent Jesus to save the world (albeit in a different way than Superman). The second is the Exodus story, in which Moses' mother places her baby in a basket on the Nile, to save him from the wrath of the Pharoah (who was conducting a massacre of all infants at the time).

There's lots more; some are obvious upon first glance, others not so much.

[celita]

Throw Tess into that group and ITA. The funny thing is, while all these people are willing to kill for Clark, none of them shows any faith in his abilities to actually perform his duties as the anointed "savior" of the world.

*Throws tess in the group of "Clod" (clark = God) theory believers*


Yeah, they think that he is so amazing, powerful and important that... he needs their help to laze his own shoes :confused:


If memory serves, that exchange took place in Season 5, when Clark wanted to reverse Lana's death in that traffic accident. Jor-El warned him, "Your powers on Earth may seem extraordinary, Kal-El...but we are not gods."


Yeap, I was talking about Reckoning!.

[galatians221]

Well when I first watched that scene I physically flinched. I'm a Christian and a minister's daughter AND I'm from Northern Ireland, so the whole religion thing is ingrained into my DNA, to be honest. As a massive Superman fan, I have always interested in the different religious interpretations of the character and the symbolism that surrounds him, for example in Superman Returns, and until now I've never been that bothered by it. However, the way Tess talked about Judas and Jesus really grated on me, for two reasons - the story she was telling was NOT the one found in the Bible, and because her whole tone throughout implied she was verging on fanaticism. It wasn't Judas' actions that were the catalyst for Jesus' mission meeting its earthly end at the crucifixion. Rather Judas was used as a means to that end. It bothers me that Tess seems to be turning into some sort of zealot a la the Veritas society. IMO this kind of blatant comparison with a badly told story has no place in a show that has hitherto shunned religion...I do recall a huge discussion after 'Blue' aired about what Lara meant when she said the Kents were at church, since they haven't been to it since or at least on the show.

Just my two pence!

Good points but as Christians I don't think that we can expect Hollywood or the secular entertainment industry to have their theology all lined up with scripture. I'm thrilled that the main points were made: Jesus' resurrection from the dead provided salvation for the world (John 3:16). Tess declared Christ as the Savior of the world so I have no gripes with it at all. It's just like the movie "Knowing". The details were off but the general tone was: the world will end and Christ will rescue His own and the rest will perish. He won't use spaceships but I can live with the depiction that they gave.

[Exedore]

the story she was telling was NOT the one found in the Bible

The Bible in the real world perhaps but we can just take it as Tess referring to the Bible in the SV adaptation of DCverse. Who knows what's in there? After all, in DC mythology all possible deities from all religions and cultures exist (or existed) simultaneously and the source of all these deities is supposed to be the Godwave which is linked with the New Gods mythos. There has been even all out war between different pantheons of gods.

Lucifer, the angels and demons and all from the Bible have appeared in the comics as part of superhero stories. One DC character called Eclipso is supposed to be responsible for the Biblical Flood while the Spectre is supposed to be the Angel of Death who carried out the deaths of Egypt's first born children. Meanwhile Zeus and co are mentoring Diana, Arthur Curry is arguing with Poseidon and Superman is fighting off an ancient evil goddess from Krypton. :rolleyes: None of this can be reconciled with the Bible in the real world.

Just don't take any religious comment in DC comics and their adaptations (including SV) seriously. It's not worth it.

[abbaspice1]

As an ordained minister who study both Greek and Hebrew, I really didn't have a problem with what Tess stated. It reminded me of one of my favorite religious movies "The Last Temptation of Christ". In the movie, Jesus basically told Judas he had to betray him in order for Jesus to fulfill his mission. Judas didn't want to do it, Jesus told him that Judas had the harder of the jobs (the one to betray vs the one who had to die).

Anyway, I do believe that Tess meant that if Judas had not betrayed Jesus, Jesus wouldn't have been killed in such a matter, and wouldn't have rose from the dead. Therefore he could not become the world's Savior.

Anyway, if one haven't seen "Last Temptation" I strongly suggest it. Very thought-provoking.

Another great film is "Dogma". Also very thought-provoking as well.

[galatians221]

Well, here's just a few of the more common allusions to Christianity that have been included in the mythology over the years...

1) "Kal -El" is Hebrew for "one God", since the "El" suffix is a shortened form of "Elohim", one of the names for God in the Bible.

2) Clark's adoptive parents were both given Biblical names, Jonathan and Martha (referring to St. John the Apostle, and Martha the sister of Mary & Lazarus).

3) Jor-El sending his son to Earth was intended as a two-fold reference. The forst is obviously to God the Father, who sent Jesus to save the world (albeit in a different way than Superman). The second is the Exodus story, in which Moses' mother places her baby in a basket on the Nile, to save him from the wrath of the Pharoah (who was conducting a massacre of all infants at the time).

There's lots more; some are obvious upon first glance, others not so much.

Good points. Bethel means "house of God" and we hear constant references on Smallville, especially when in the Phantom Zone about the "House of El". Of course it's not a perfect analogy but Clark is not from this world and walks around like all of us but is not like us. He has supernatural abilities. He saves people. Where it all breaks down is that Clark cannot provide eternal life. Even the people he saves will eventually die whereas Christ defeated death and lives forever and offers His resurrection life to us for absolutely nothing but embracing the cross. It can't get any better than that. My signature basically says that if we can earn our way to heaven then Christ died needlessly. Still, Clark is a type of Christ; a poor imitation but a type nonetheless.

[actaeon]

I don't think it was the intent of the writers for heavy religious thought. I think the general point Tess was trying to make was it was Judas' betrayal that directly led to Christ's crucifixion, which then led to his resurrection.

Exactly. The point, I think, is that it's all part of a grand plan.

And I don't go to Smallville for religious orthodoxy!


The only thing Smallville and the Bible have in common is Fiction.
I don't find anything offensive or even disrespectful in this statement. Lots of people-- including lots of religious people-- do not look at the Bible as literal truth.

[miller31]

Perhaps it's like in the Bible? Jesus performed many miracles during His earthly ministry, bringing people back to life and healing them from their sicknesses, but it was nothing compared to what He did on the cross--saving the world from hell.

Wow! It's been a though-provoking discussion all around, and I think you make a nice analogy, ClarkyBoy. Nothing Clark does is equal to what Jesus does in scope, but there are similarities. Right now, Clark is helping people on an individual level...as Jesus did during His Eartly ministry. They're both being "hands-on", because that's what they are meant to be at this stage. Just as Clark doesn't want people to know his true identity, neither did Jesus go around proclaiming "I'm the Son of God".

In terms of drama, this is all build-up for their ultimate sacrifice for those they love. For Jesus, it's the whole world whereas Clark has a smaller scale (Metropolis). "Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends". Also, both take down the ultimate threat in a way only they could do.

Did Tess ever specifically mention Clark having to die to complete his mission? Or is that something us comics fans are reading as foreshadowing...since we know how both Jesus and Clark's stories end?

I will say, this is a much more satisfying Doomsday story than I would have suspected. The comics version has always struck me as a marketing ploy. "Let's kill Superman! But how? Create a nameless, faceless creature to do him in. Genius!" :) So, I'm enjoying the religious overtones they ran with in this ep (and for this storyline).

As for Davis' catholicism, it's as genuine as the writers want it to be. We know (?) that he killed a nun (whose cross he keeps with him) and the confessional scene was an effective dramatic way of developing his inner battle. It is also easily recognizable and relatable to most people. They didn't need to explain him seeing a therapist or whoever to spill his guts, so to speak. Didn't even think of the "Catholic Children's charity taking in an orphan" angle, until someone here mentioned it.

[The Ship!]

So let me get this straight, Jesus was then some Alien??

[miller31]

^^As in not of this Earth, not as in Kryptonian or "Take me to Your Leader". I'd say a visitor from Heaven definitely qualifies as "alien" in the broader sense. The parallels also continue with a "heavenly father" (in Supes' case, Jor-El) sending his son to Earth. But, these are just parallels or similarities not an "apples to apples" direct link.

[moviefan2k4]

^^As in not of this Earth, not as in Kryptonian or "Take me to Your Leader". I'd say a visitor from Heaven definitely qualifies as "alien" in the broader sense. The parallels also continue with a "heavenly father" (in Supes' case, Jor-El) sending his son to Earth. But, these are just parallels or similarities not an "apples to apples" direct link.Good point. I suppose it's likely that Siegel & Shuster's intent with Superman was similar to Tolkien's with "Lord of the Rings", in that he preferred applicability to allegory.

What I mean is this: applicability is more of a broader, generic form of storytelling, whereas allegory is usually done as a direct substitution. Therefore, certain comparisons can be made between Superman and Christianity, but I think other examples could present themselves as well.

[ClarkyBoy14]

Wow! It's been a though-provoking discussion all around, and I think you make a nice analogy, ClarkyBoy. Nothing Clark does is equal to what Jesus does in scope, but there are similarities. Right now, Clark is helping people on an individual level...as Jesus did during His Eartly ministry. They're both being "hands-on", because that's what they are meant to be at this stage. Just as Clark doesn't want people to know his true identity, neither did Jesus go around proclaiming "I'm the Son of God".

In terms of drama, this is all build-up for their ultimate sacrifice for those they love. For Jesus, it's the whole world whereas Clark has a smaller scale (Metropolis). "Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends". Also, both take down the ultimate threat in a way only they could do.

Wow, you really explained what I was trying to say very well. Thank you! :)

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----


I think he's probably religious. I mean you can't just think you're forgiven just because you're asking God for forgiveness while you don't even believe in Him. It wouldn't work on your conscious. You wouldn't feel better or worse. It wouldn't work on his guilt if he wasn't religious. But if he is religious and it's very likely as children are often raised catholic in orphanages, he will probably feel more guilty about his actions cause he then should know for sure that what he is doing is wrong.

You could be right...

----- Added 2 Minutes later -----


You'd be surprised by what straws will be grasped by those with the kind of guilt that Davis has been experiencing. I've seen some crazy things done by people with guilty consciences.

Or you could be right.

Perhaps, when Davis found the nun's crucifix, he used it as a last resort or something.

----- Added 6 Minutes later -----


The whole thing is ridiculous, and I'm tired of Smallville constantly shoving it down our throats. Superman =/= God.... there is no significant similarity to be drawn.

Similarily, I feel tired of movies and TV shows constantly shoving anti-Biblical messages down my throat. ;) :)

----- Added 13 Minutes later -----


Where it all breaks down is that Clark cannot provide eternal life. Even the people he saves will eventually die whereas Christ defeated death and lives forever and offers His resurrection life to us for absolutely nothing but embracing the cross. It can't get any better than that.

That's what I don't like about the Clark=Jesus stuff. Because Clark can't give anyone eternal life. However, I still think having Biblical things in the show opens the door for some interesting discussions.

[Skaterpen357]

Just pointing out kind of quickly: no, Clark doesn't provide anyone with eternal life per se, but two of his defining characteristics is to inspire hope in people out of dispair and to set those initially seen as villainous on the right path--just look at half the Justice League on Smallville. Inspiring hope and setting people on the right path is very spiritual-Savioresque of him, and while he is not the cause or the provider of eternal life, he helps people accept lifestyles that lead to eternal life.

[Pantalaimon]

I don't think it's such a problematic interpretation. Even if you're a practicing Christian (like me). Judas played a vital part in the Crucifixion story. (When I say story I'm talking about the narrative in the bible, I'm not talking of weather the events described by this narrative really occurred or not.) Judas' actions and Jesus' recognition of his intentions made it clear that Jesus was willingly sacrificing himself for the sake of others. In that sense, Judas was a necessary part of the process. True, anybody could have done it, but that is beside the point. The point is that someone had to betray Jesus and that someone turned out to be Judas.

There is also a very common interpretation that Judas saw it as his holy duty to betray Jesus. This may ring strongly of fanaticism, but perhaps that is exactly the point. Tess is bordering on fanatical and in this light perhaps we were supposed to 'flinch', as several of you said, at her words. By the way, it seems pretty clear to me that Tess is equaled to Judas here, not Davis. She is a believer of Clark's destiny to become saviour of the earth and she is willing to betray Clark to make that destiny come about. She is trying to give herself a vital role in Clark's destiny and she is using Judas and his role in the crucifixion of Jesus as an excuse.

[Atomic girl]

MOD NOTE: Please keep this discussion to the Biblical references in Eternal. Everything else needs to be directly related to that and the relationship needs to be spelled out in the post, otherwise it is off topic. If the conversation keeps going off topic, the thread will need to be closed.

[Pantalaimon]

BTW
Just to make the comparison between Clark and Jesus a little less sensitive:
Messianic figures are very common in all kinds of stories. By extension the typical messianic figure only has some traits in common with Jesus himself. There are clearly some similarities between Clark and Jesus, but he is by no means intended to be some sort of second Messiah.

[moviefan2k4]

For those of you who wish to continue this discussion on a broader scale, I've started a new thread for it in the General Discussion area. Feel free to check it out! :D

[Skaterpen357]

Why thank you; I suppose this is getting a bit off-topic, even if not really...